{"id":150080,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150080","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f19237533b741e92fca4ed861a3b97380652f8ba9b0039caa7a61429c243362692245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:38:36 - 09:50:14","影片長度":"00:11:38","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案45案。[如經院會復議，則不予處理或審查]\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":698,"end_time":"2024-03-20T09:50:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T09:38:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":331,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時38分）謝謝主席。有請莊部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員早。"],["郭委員國文：部長，今天的解凍案中有特別針對地方政府稅款短少補助的部分，其實總結來說還是牽扯到財政收支劃分法跟統籌分配辦法的問題，臺灣目前的財政體制是屬於單一體制、非聯邦體制的情況，我們可以理解財政會集中，但是如果比例差別太大，恐怕就會影響地方自治精神的落實。舉112年的例子來說，中央的稅款高達3兆660億，就我們辦公室的統計，地方的稅款不過是3,612億，也就是總體的國家稅收居然高達9比1。本席之所以會跟你提出這個問題其實是牽扯到財政收支劃分法，你在上一次的會議提到今年度會送進來修法，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：我沒有說今年度會送進來。"],["郭委員國文：那是什麼時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：我跟委員報告，財政收支劃分法涉及到地方的分配，所以這個部分，財政部有6項原則基本上已經有方向，但是我們也跟地方政府查詢他們對於分配指標裡面……"],["郭委員國文：請問部長，財政收支劃分法有打算什麼時候修法嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分要獲取共識，要有共識以後才能把條文推出來。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，那時候的共識是在統籌分配款的部分，統籌分配款是一個橫向的配置。我現在說的是縱向的配置，縱向配置的部分地方不會有意見啦！你如果要下放的話，他們怎麼會意見呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然……"],["郭委員國文：所以不會有共識的問題啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，當然在縱向分配的部分，第一個就是我們會保障他們的既有財源，然後讓地方的稅源……"],["郭委員國文：如何保障既有財源的部分，本席……"],["莊部長翠雲：還有讓他們地方的稅源可以不用減少。"],["郭委員國文：本席所列舉的這些稅基跟稅源的部分有沒有可能比例或項目上調整，讓目前總體國家稅收的比例高達9比1的情況底下做一個可能性的變化？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然這個未來在研議的時候都會考量。"],["郭委員國文：對，本席就是要提醒你，與其在這種補助短少的部分大家在爭議，是不是從縱向的部分來調整的可能性，有沒有可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我想這個部分謝謝委員的提示，我們會就中央跟地方垂直分配的部分，要考量最近中央跟地方財經情勢的變化，還有……"],["郭委員國文：對，所以這個基本上是沒有什麼共識的問題，共識的問題是在統籌分配款橫向的部分，縣市之間的一些差別。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：縣市之間的差別確實是有這個問題，每個地方的自有財源再加上整個統籌分配的財源，他所能夠依賴地方的比例是有所高低。簡單的講，臺北市的自有財源加上統籌分配款，它的自主程度就大概是94%，很高；那有些地方其實是非常低，不到50%，差別非常大。長期以來沒有辦法達成共識是這個部分，以至於地方政府不論是舉債也好，或者是要求中央補助也好，或者是賣地也好，這種方式就紛紛出籠嘛！根本來說，財政收支劃分法從1999年到現在為止已經高達25年都沒有修法，以至於十幾年前升格的時候還列為升格三法，升格已經經過十幾年，二都變六都的情況底下，一樣還沒有修法，已經經過十幾年了，部長，是不是在你任內有可能面對這個問題？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員的提示，您的提示確實是，我想我們這個部分也會去考量，第一個，維持中央有財政韌性，是要維持的。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：第二個，因為這個財政韌性要應不時之需、全國需求，然後……"],["郭委員國文：我想在民主化之後，整個民主化國家在財政汲取的能力相對會降低，我們可以理解，但是你不要降低的同時一直在集中嘛！越集中的情況底下，中央跟地方的落差就會越來越大，就如同本席這個表格一樣，會變成9比1的狀況嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：我再舉一個例子，中央補助項目在一般性補助去年是2,146億，統籌分配款的補助是3,627億，再加上各機關補助地方政府統計結果是2,014億，整個地方政府收入主要來自於中央的部分就高達8,200億，超過他們本身稅收的60%，總體而言，依存度是高達六成，部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：這種收入比例跟依存度都太過偏頗了啦！所以財政收支劃分法也好，或統籌分配款辦法也好，你應該在任內的時候認真的去面對這個問題啊！是不是能夠在未來的調整，除了剛剛縱向的部分有一些修法的空間讓地方的比例不用跟中央差那麼大之外，還有在橫向的部分，也就是說在人口跟面積的部分要固定，你如果一直把財政狀況列為指標，那就變富的更富，窮的會更窮，這就是統籌分配款裡最不公平的關鍵因素，部長，有沒有可能納入其他的方式，現在工廠登記都在南部，公司登記都在臺北，所以他們財政狀況比較好，南部就比較不好。這部分應該調整，部長，有沒有可能這樣思考？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員的提示很好，我們在未來考慮的時候，都會把它納進去參考，然後對於地方的財政需求也要去兼顧，除了中央的財政韌性之外，地方的財政需求也都要去兼顧。"],["郭委員國文：對，我希望你以後有一個真正的方向出來，本席是在看到這個解凍案的時候，特別來提醒。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：另外一個部分，房屋稅的部分我們算起來，房屋稅的逃漏稅比例破五成，你看怎麼算呢？10戶以上最近賦稅署所查到1,007人的情況底下，高達58%；5到9戶高達52%，依照目前非自住的部分共五十四萬多人的情況，以55%來推估，大概房屋黑數高達30萬之多。可是你們每年查核的部分，之前已經查核了9,337件，然後有4,968件要補稅，就是逃漏稅的部分。然後你們今（2024）年到2025年，2年才要查8,000件，可是目前為止，如果就這二個預計要查跟以前查過，有28萬件的黑數還沒有查到。如果按照這種計算方式，2年要查1萬件的話，我算一算還要再查56年了，我算過你的年齡，你如果一直當部長的話，要123歲才能查完。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，當然第一個加強查核是我們的一個方向；第二個就是現在有所謂房屋租金支出作為特別扣除額，事實上就讓房客申報之後，我們就知道房東在哪裡，其實……"],["郭委員國文：部長，問題是什麼時候才查得完啊？什麼時候才有一個效率的方法能夠……你的責任是怎樣？你既然要把這些黑數減少，就是要強化納管，不是嗎？你的責任就是強化納管嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，強化納管……"],["郭委員國文：強化納管的部分就是要加強查緝嘛！那加強查緝要有重點，重點是什麼？就是熱區嘛！那熱區是什麼？人口居住密集的地方嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，對啊！所以熱區是一個重點。"],["郭委員國文：熱區當中最熱的地方是哪裡？就是臺北市，六都當中是最關鍵的，你要納管的同時有沒有其他的可能性？讓房東主動願意納管，而不是你一直在查核，你有沒有思考這個誘因的機制？然後另外更嚴重的部分，我稍微算了一下囤房稅，在上次的答詢當中你自己講，囤房稅2.0預估每戶要增加2.6萬元，所得稅專案平均一戶要增加5.63萬元，加起來這八萬多的轉嫁空間，金額非常大。部長，你看主計處所公布的房租CPI已經破歷史新高了，已經高達105.37了，囤房稅今年7月上路，CPI的數字會更加上揚，你有沒有考慮到這個問題？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，囤房稅2.0是對於不出租然後又空置沒有做有效利用的部分才會加重課稅。如果出租的話，稅率是下降的，所以基本上不會造成所謂要再轉嫁，原來的3.6%下降到2.4%，所以是天花板往下降。"],["郭委員國文：對，天花板往下降。"],["莊部長翠雲：對、對、對。"],["郭委員國文：但是有這種情況、有參加的才有這個問題，有強制納管的部分，這是你的誘因，可是沒有的部分還是有一個轉嫁的空間嘛！本席再提醒你，再舉一個例子好了，你們自己所做的研究報告當中，以臺北市為例，你們自己委託的研究報告，囤房稅增加2,776元，但是租金暴增3萬8,975元，暴增14倍。這是你們自己做的研究報告，臺北市的關聯性這麼高，或許他有高估，但是基本上就代表關聯性很高。本席要告訴你的就是，要如何減少房市黑數是你的責任，你要加強納管，同時要避免轉嫁，也就是強化納管，然後弱化轉嫁，弱化轉嫁當然是內政部的事情。但是你們查到的資料又沒有給內政部，內政部要如何就你的資料來形成相關的辦法弱化轉嫁呢？所以部會之間要有一個平臺跟合作，部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員說得很是，這個部分我們資料都會給內政部做橫向的聯繫。"],["郭委員國文：對，橫向的聯繫，它的責任是弱化轉嫁，而你要強化納管，強化納管的部分除了剛剛社會住宅降低稅率的部分之外，還有一個方式，你之前有提過境外資金，也就是臺商專案境外資金有免除課稅的責任，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，降稅。"],["郭委員國文：然後內政部以前移民署也對移工有自首方案嘛！本席強烈建議你，如果減少這些黑數，與其每二年去查個1萬件，你是不是可以制定一個特赦方案，有沒有可能性？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分，第一個，有所得本來就應該要課……"],["郭委員國文：為什麼需要特赦知道嗎？因為這個條款不是主要減少稅收，你要納入這個制度，相對的這整個部分透明化之後，你才可以讓內政部轉嫁的移轉弱化，唯有前面要強化。按照你這種專案查緝的部分，你要查到民國幾年？與其如此，不如讓他自己來自首，有沒有可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，自首，如果他自己來報，我們就不會罰他。"],["郭委員國文：自首要有誘因啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：就是不罰啊！"],["郭委員國文：除了不罰之外，還有沒有其他辦法啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然現在還有譬如剛剛委員也提到的社會住宅，或者是做包租代管公益出租人，其實這個稅率都是維持自用稅率，這個部分是可以……"],["郭委員國文：部長，你就用一個相關的誘因，然後納入所謂的特色條款當中，來進行跟房東的宣傳，讓他有可能強制納管、強化納管，有沒有可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我瞭解，委員，這個部分我們把它整理出來，也就是現在所行的措施，然後鼓勵房東把它……"],["郭委員國文：好，那你就儘快把這個方案拿出來。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝，我們把它整理出來。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["主席：郭國文委員質詢結束，謝謝郭委員。","下一位請賴惠員委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王世堅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","李坤城","黃珊珊","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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\"text\": \"現在之間的差別確實是有這個問題每個地方的自由財源再加上整個統籌分配款的財源它所能夠依賴這個地方的比例是有所高低簡單的講台北市的自由財源加上統籌分配款它的自主程度就大概94%就很高那有些地方其實是非常低大概不到50%差別非常的大長期還沒有辦法達成共識是這個部分以至於地方政府不論是舉債也好或者是要求中央補助也好或者是賣地也好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 158.506, \"end\": 158.646, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 158.646, \"end\": 158.846, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 158.846, \"end\": 158.926, \"score\": 0.442}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 158.926, \"end\": 159.106, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 159.106, \"end\": 159.727, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 159.727, \"end\": 159.867, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 159.867, \"end\": 161.248, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 161.248, \"end\": 161.668, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 161.668, 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\"start\": 692.849, \"end\": 692.869, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 692.869, \"end\": 693.029, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"鼓\", \"start\": 693.029, \"end\": 693.049, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"勵\"}, {\"word\": \"房\", \"start\": 693.049, \"end\": 693.329, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 693.329, \"end\": 693.549, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 693.549, \"end\": 693.569, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 693.569, \"end\": 693.71, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 693.71, \"end\": 693.81, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 693.81, \"end\": 694.05, \"score\": 0.673}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 694.05, \"end\": 694.07, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 694.07, \"end\": 694.09, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 694.09, \"end\": 694.19, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 694.19, \"end\": 694.35, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 694.35, \"end\": 694.43, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 694.43, \"end\": 694.49, \"score\": 0.364}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 694.49, \"end\": 694.51, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,107 --> 00:00:24,932\n謝謝主席有請莊部長來部長請委員長部長今天解凍案中有特別針對地方政府稅款這個短少補助的部分其實根結來說還是牽扯到有關於這個財政收支法跟法跟這個統籌分配辦法的一個問題\n\n2\n00:00:26,752 --> 00:00:43,862\n以照台灣目前的財政體制是屬於一種單一體制而非聯邦體制的情況底下我們財政會集中可以理解但是比例如果差別太大的話恐怕就會影響地方自治精神的落實舉112年的例子來說你看中央的稅款高達3兆660億就我們的辦公室的統計地方的稅款不過是3612億也就是說\n\n3\n00:00:54,208 --> 00:01:07,725\n總體的國家的稅收當中居然高達9比1的部分本期會之所以會跟你提出這個問題其實那個牽扯到財政收支發放法你在上一次的會議當中提到說今年度會送進來修法是不是\n\n4\n00:01:08,683 --> 00:01:22,783\n我沒有說今年度會送進去但什麼時候我想跟委員報告財政收支劃分法那涉及到地方的一個分配所以這個部分我們財政部基本上有六項的原則基本上已經有方向但是呢我們也\n\n5\n00:01:23,925 --> 00:01:48,723\n跟地方政府去查詢他們對於分配指標的面﹖請問您部長有沒有你有打算什麼時候修法嗎財政收支方這個部分要獲取到共識要有共識以後才能夠有把條文配出來沒有你那時候以前共識的部分是在統籌分配款的部分統籌分配款的部分是一個橫向的一個配置的部分我現在說的是縱向的配置的部分以縱向的配置的部分地方不會有意見啊你如果要下放的話他們怎麼會有意見呢這是不會有共識的問題啊\n\n6\n00:01:50,245 --> 00:02:08,542\n當然在縱向的分配的部分我們第一個就是我們會保障他們的既有財源讓他們地方的稅源可以不用減少本席所列舉的這些稅基跟稅源的部分有沒有可能比例說項目上有做一個調整讓整個這個目前總體的國家稅收的比例高達9比1的情況底下做一個可能性的\n\n7\n00:02:09,122 --> 00:02:37,866\n當然這個在未來在研議的時候都會做考量的那本期就是要跟你提醒啊議區在這種補助短掃的部分來大家就要做爭議的部分是不是有在從一個縱向的部分來做調整的可能性有沒有可能是我想這個部分謝謝委員的一個提示那我想我們會就中央跟地方這個垂直分配的部分要考量最近中央跟地方財經趨勢的一個變化所以說這個基本上是沒有什麼共識的問題共識的問題是在統籌分配款橫向的部分縣市之間的一些差別\n\n8\n00:02:38,506 --> 00:03:07,661\n現在之間的差別確實是有這個問題每個地方的自由財源再加上整個統籌分配款的財源它所能夠依賴這個地方的比例是有所高低簡單的講台北市的自由財源加上統籌分配款它的自主程度就大概94%就很高那有些地方其實是非常低大概不到50%差別非常的大長期還沒有辦法達成共識是這個部分以至於地方政府不論是舉債也好或者是要求中央補助也好或者是賣地也好\n\n9\n00:03:08,301 --> 00:03:28,830\n這種方式就紛紛出籠嘛所以說根本來說我們是不是要從財政收支法案法從1999年的時候到現在為止已經高達25年都沒有修法囉以至於說十幾年前升格的時候還列於升格三法已經經過十幾年升格已經經過十幾年二度變六度的情況底下一樣還沒有修法已經經過十幾年了部長你是不是在你任內有可能面對這個問題\n\n10\n00:03:30,294 --> 00:03:48,494\n是謝謝委員的一個提示您的提示確實是那我想我們這個部分也會去考量就是說第一個要維持中央要有一個財政的韌性是要維持的第二個因為這個財政韌性要應不時之需我想說整個民主化之後整個民主化的國家在財政能力汲取的能力相對會降低我們可以理解\n\n11\n00:04:14,153 --> 00:04:26,939\n十兩千零一十四億總共這樣子就同地方政府收入主要來自於中央的部分就高達八千兩百億超過他們本身的稅收60%就總體而言他依存度是高達六成\n\n12\n00:04:28,254 --> 00:04:55,942\n部長是所以說這個財政收支方法也好或統籌分配款辦法也好你應該在你任內的時候認真的去面對這個問題啊是不是能夠在未來的調整的部分呢除了剛剛從縱向的部分有一些修法的空間讓地方的這個比例不用差跟中央差那麼大之外還有在橫向的部分也就是說呢在人口跟面積的部分固定的那財政狀況喔\n\n13\n00:04:57,202 --> 00:05:17,777\n你如果一直把財政官列為指標的話那就變富的更富窮的會更窮這就是統籌分配款最不公平的一個關鍵因素部長有沒有可能納入其他的方式工廠登記都在南部公司登記都在台北所以說你結果財政狀況比較好南部就比較不好這部分應該做一個調整部長有沒有可能做這樣的思考\n\n14\n00:05:18,297 --> 00:05:35,862\n是委員的提示很好我們在未來考慮的時候都會把他納進去參考然後對於地方的財政需求也要去兼顧除了我們中央政府任性之外財政任性之外地方的財政需求對我希望你會有一個真正的一個方向出來本期是看到這個解凍案的時候特別來做一個提醒\n\n15\n00:05:36,502 --> 00:06:04,132\n另外一個部分房屋稅的這部分我們算起來房屋稅的逃落稅率高達大概破五成你看怎麼算呢你10戶以上你最近所查到的稅務署所查到的107人的情況底下高達58%5到9戶的部分高達52%以照目前非自住的這個部分的共54萬多人的情況55%的推估大概房屋的黑數目高達30萬居多高達30萬居多可是部長\n\n16\n00:06:04,952 --> 00:06:13,116\n你們每年的這個查核的部分你們之前已經查了9337件然後有4968件要補稅就是逃落稅的部分然後你們今2024年到2025兩年還要查8000件可是呢你目前為止如果就這兩個預計要查跟以前查過你還有28萬件的黑書還沒有到達到你如果按照這種計算方式兩年要查一萬件的話我算一算\n\n17\n00:06:31,144 --> 00:06:35,217\n你還要再查56年部長我算過你的年齡你大概如果一直當部長的話你要123歲才能查完部長\n\n18\n00:06:40,713 --> 00:07:07,038\n當然第一個加強查核是我們的一個方向第二個就是說現在有所謂的那個房屋租金的支出作為特別扣除這事實上就讓房客去報這個以後那其實我們就知道房東在哪裡問題是什麼時候才有一個效率的方法能夠你的責任是這樣你既然要把這些黑數減少就是要強化納管不是嗎\n\n19\n00:07:07,958 --> 00:07:27,119\n你的責任就是強化納管嘛。對,強化納管。強化納管的部分你就是要加強查緝嘛。對。那加強查緝你要重點,重點是什麼?就是熱區嘛。是。那熱區是什麼?人口居住密集的地方嘛。是是是,對啊。對啊,那你的熱區當中的最熱的地方是哪裡?也就台北市。齁,六都當中是最關鍵的。是。\n\n20\n00:07:47,045 --> 00:07:56,832\n你們所﹐囤戶稅的部分自己講在上次的答詢當中啊囤戶稅2.0的話預估每戶要增加2.6萬人所得稅專案平均一戶啊要增加5.6﹐5.63萬人\n\n21\n00:08:48,385 --> 00:09:09,520\n有這種情況要參加的才有這個問題有強制納管的部分這是你的誘因可是沒有的部分還是有一個轉嫁的空間本席再提醒你再舉一個例子你們自己所做的研究報告當中以台北市為例你們囤房稅你們自己委託研究報告囤房稅增加2776萬元但是租金暴增在38975元暴增14倍\n\n22\n00:09:15,439 --> 00:09:34,841\n這你們自己做的研究報告就台北市的關聯性這麼高或許他有高估但是基本上就代表那個關聯性很高那本席要告訴你就是說要如何減少這個房市的這個黑數這個是你的責任你要加強納管同時呢要避免轉嫁\n\n23\n00:09:54,844 --> 00:10:10,622\n委員說得很適,這個部分我們資料都會給內政部做橫向的聯繫對,橫向的聯繫,他的責任是弱化轉嫁而你要強化納管,強化納管的部分除了剛剛的社會住宅的一個降低這個稅收那個稅增的部分之外還有一個方式\n\n24\n00:10:11,303 --> 00:10:33,129\n你之前有提過一個經貨資金也就是臺商專案經貨資金的時候有免除課稅的這個責任嘛對不對然後內政部當中以前移民署也對移工有自首方案嘛本席強烈檢理你啊你如果要減少這些黑數你與其每年兩年去查個一萬件你是不是可以制定一個特色方案有沒有可能性\n\n25\n00:10:37,073 --> 00:10:59,239\n為什麼需要特赦你知道嗎?因為特赦條款可以不是主要檢討所以說你要納入這個制度你相對的整個這個部分透明化之後你才可以讓內政部的這個轉嫁的這個移轉弱化你唯有前面要強化強化按照你這種專案查緝的部分你要查到民國幾年你與其如此不如讓他自己來自首有沒有可能\n\n26\n00:11:00,420 --> 00:11:15,477\n對至少如果他自己來報的話那就我們不會罰他至少要有誘因啊就不罰不罰除了不罰之外還有其他的辦法沒有啊當然現在還有比如說剛剛委員也提到的社會住宅或者是做包租代管公益出租人其實這個說明都是維持自用說明這個部分是可以\n\n27\n00:11:17,799 --> 00:11:34,510\n部長你就用一個相關的業務運納入一個所謂的特色條款當中來進行跟房東的宣傳讓他有可能強制納管的強化納管的可能性有沒有可能是我了解我想委員這個部分我們把它整理出來也就是說現在所行的措施然後鼓勵房東把這個方案拿出來好謝謝我們把它整理出來謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4107\t24932\t謝謝主席有請莊部長來部長請委員長部長今天解凍案中有特別針對地方政府稅款這個短少補助的部分其實根結來說還是牽扯到有關於這個財政收支法跟法跟這個統籌分配辦法的一個問題\n26752\t43862\t以照台灣目前的財政體制是屬於一種單一體制而非聯邦體制的情況底下我們財政會集中可以理解但是比例如果差別太大的話恐怕就會影響地方自治精神的落實舉112年的例子來說你看中央的稅款高達3兆660億就我們的辦公室的統計地方的稅款不過是3612億也就是說\n54208\t67725\t總體的國家的稅收當中居然高達9比1的部分本期會之所以會跟你提出這個問題其實那個牽扯到財政收支發放法你在上一次的會議當中提到說今年度會送進來修法是不是\n68683\t82783\t我沒有說今年度會送進去但什麼時候我想跟委員報告財政收支劃分法那涉及到地方的一個分配所以這個部分我們財政部基本上有六項的原則基本上已經有方向但是呢我們也\n83925\t108723\t跟地方政府去查詢他們對於分配指標的面﹖ 請問您部長有沒有你有打算什麼時候修法嗎財政收支方 這個部分要獲取到共識要有共識以後才能夠有把條文配出來沒有你那時候以前共識的部分是在統籌分配款的部分統籌分配款的部分是一個橫向的一個配置的部分我現在說的是縱向的配置的部分以縱向的配置的部分地方不會有意見啊你如果要下放的話他們怎麼會有意見呢這是不會有共識的問題啊\n110245\t128542\t當然在縱向的分配的部分我們第一個就是我們會保障他們的既有財源讓他們地方的稅源可以不用減少本席所列舉的這些稅基跟稅源的部分有沒有可能比例說項目上有做一個調整讓整個這個目前總體的國家稅收的比例高達9比1的情況底下做一個可能性的\n129122\t157866\t當然這個在未來在研議的時候都會做考量的那本期就是要跟你提醒啊議區在這種補助短掃的部分來大家就要做爭議的部分是不是有在從一個縱向的部分來做調整的可能性有沒有可能是我想這個部分謝謝委員的一個提示那我想我們會就中央跟地方這個垂直分配的部分要考量最近中央跟地方財經趨勢的一個變化所以說這個基本上是沒有什麼共識的問題共識的問題是在統籌分配款橫向的部分縣市之間的一些差別\n158506\t187661\t現在之間的差別確實是有這個問題每個地方的自由財源再加上整個統籌分配款的財源它所能夠依賴這個地方的比例是有所高低簡單的講台北市的自由財源加上統籌分配款它的自主程度就大概94%就很高那有些地方其實是非常低大概不到50%差別非常的大長期還沒有辦法達成共識是這個部分以至於地方政府不論是舉債也好或者是要求中央補助也好或者是賣地也好\n188301\t208830\t這種方式就紛紛出籠嘛所以說根本來說我們是不是要從財政收支法案法從1999年的時候到現在為止已經高達25年都沒有修法囉以至於說十幾年前升格的時候還列於升格三法已經經過十幾年升格已經經過十幾年二度變六度的情況底下一樣還沒有修法已經經過十幾年了部長你是不是在你任內有可能面對這個問題\n210294\t228494\t是謝謝委員的一個提示您的提示確實是那我想我們這個部分也會去考量就是說第一個要維持中央要有一個財政的韌性是要維持的第二個因為這個財政韌性要應不時之需我想說整個民主化之後整個民主化的國家在財政能力汲取的能力相對會降低我們可以理解\n228814\t253473\t​​​​​​​​​​​​​​\n254153\t266939\t十兩千零一十四億總共這樣子就同地方政府收入主要來自於中央的部分就高達八千兩百億超過他們本身的稅收60%就總體而言他依存度是高達六成\n268254\t295942\t部長 是所以說這個財政收支方法也好或統籌分配款辦法也好你應該在你任內的時候認真的去面對這個問題啊是不是能夠在未來的調整的部分呢除了剛剛從縱向的部分有一些修法的空間讓地方的這個比例不用差跟中央差那麼大之外還有在橫向的部分也就是說呢在人口跟面積的部分固定的那財政狀況喔\n297202\t317777\t你如果一直把財政官列為指標的話那就變富的更富窮的會更窮這就是統籌分配款最不公平的一個關鍵因素部長有沒有可能納入其他的方式工廠登記都在南部公司登記都在台北所以說你結果財政狀況比較好南部就比較不好這部分應該做一個調整部長有沒有可能做這樣的思考\n318297\t335862\t是委員的提示很好我們在未來考慮的時候都會把他納進去參考然後對於地方的財政需求也要去兼顧除了我們中央政府任性之外財政任性之外地方的財政需求對我希望你會有一個真正的一個方向出來本期是看到這個解凍案的時候特別來做一個提醒\n336502\t364132\t另外一個部分房屋稅的這部分我們算起來房屋稅的逃落稅率高達大概破五成你看怎麼算呢你10戶以上你最近所查到的稅務署所查到的107人的情況底下高達58%5到9戶的部分高達52%以照目前非自住的這個部分的共54萬多人的情況55%的推估大概房屋的黑數目高達30萬居多高達30萬居多可是部長\n364952\t373116\t你們每年的這個查核的部分你們之前已經查了9337件然後有4968件要補稅就是逃落稅的部分然後你們今2024年到2025兩年還要查8000件可是呢你目前為止如果就這兩個預計要查跟以前查過你還有28萬件的黑書還沒有到達到你如果按照這種計算方式兩年要查一萬件的話我算一算\n391144\t395217\t你還要再查56年部長我算過你的年齡你大概如果一直當部長的話你要123歲才能查完部長\n400713\t427038\t當然第一個加強查核是我們的一個方向第二個就是說現在有所謂的那個房屋租金的支出作為特別扣除這事實上就讓房客去報這個以後那其實我們就知道房東在哪裡問題是什麼時候才有一個效率的方法能夠你的責任是這樣你既然要把這些黑數減少就是要強化納管不是嗎\n427958\t447119\t你的責任就是強化納管嘛。對,強化納管。強化納管的部分你就是要加強查緝嘛。對。那加強查緝你要重點,重點是什麼?就是熱區嘛。是。那熱區是什麼?人口居住密集的地方嘛。是是是,對啊。對啊,那你的熱區當中的最熱的地方是哪裡?也就台北市。齁,六都當中是最關鍵的。是。\n448541\t466852\t​​​​​​​​​​​​\n467045\t476832\t你們所﹐囤戶稅的部分自己講在上次的答詢當中啊囤戶稅2.0的話預估每戶要增加2.6萬人所得稅專案平均一戶啊要增加5.6﹐5.63萬人\n479770\t501067\t議員議員議員\n501067\t528285\t​​​​​​​​​​\n528385\t549520\t有這種情況要參加的才有這個問題有強制納管的部分這是你的誘因可是沒有的部分還是有一個轉嫁的空間本席再提醒你再舉一個例子你們自己所做的研究報告當中以台北市為例你們囤房稅你們自己委託研究報告囤房稅增加2776萬元但是租金暴增在38975元暴增14倍\n555439\t574841\t這你們自己做的研究報告就台北市的關聯性這麼高或許他有高估但是基本上就代表那個關聯性很高那本席要告訴你就是說要如何減少這個房市的這個黑數這個是你的責任你要加強納管同時呢要避免轉嫁\n575862\t594343\t⋯⋯\n594844\t610622\t委員說得很適,這個部分我們資料都會給內政部做橫向的聯繫對,橫向的聯繫,他的責任是弱化轉嫁而你要強化納管,強化納管的部分除了剛剛的社會住宅的一個降低這個稅收那個稅增的部分之外還有一個方式\n611303\t633129\t你之前有提過一個經貨資金也就是臺商專案經貨資金的時候有免除課稅的這個責任嘛 對不對然後內政部當中以前移民署也對移工有自首方案嘛本席強烈檢理你啊你如果要減少這些黑數你與其每年兩年去查個一萬件你是不是可以制定一個特色方案有沒有可能性\n637073\t659239\t為什麼需要特赦你知道嗎?因為特赦條款可以不是主要檢討所以說你要納入這個制度你相對的整個這個部分透明化之後你才可以讓內政部的這個轉嫁的這個移轉弱化你唯有前面要強化強化按照你這種專案查緝的部分你要查到民國幾年你與其如此不如讓他自己來自首有沒有可能\n660420\t675477\t對至少如果他自己來報的話那就我們不會罰他至少要有誘因啊就不罰不罰除了不罰之外還有其他的辦法沒有啊當然現在還有比如說剛剛委員也提到的社會住宅或者是做包租代管公益出租人其實這個說明都是維持自用說明這個部分是可以\n677799\t694510\t部長你就用一個相關的業務運納入一個所謂的特色條款當中來進行跟房東的宣傳讓他有可能強制納管的強化納管的可能性有沒有可能是我了解我想委員這個部分我們把它整理出來也就是說現在所行的措施然後鼓勵房東把這個方案拿出來好謝謝我們把它整理出來謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請莊部長來部長請委員長部長今天解凍案中有特別針對地方政府稅款這個短少補助的部分其實根結來說還是牽扯到有關於這個財政收支法跟法跟這個統籌分配辦法的一個問題\n以照台灣目前的財政體制是屬於一種單一體制而非聯邦體制的情況底下我們財政會集中可以理解但是比例如果差別太大的話恐怕就會影響地方自治精神的落實舉112年的例子來說你看中央的稅款高達3兆660億就我們的辦公室的統計地方的稅款不過是3612億也就是說\n總體的國家的稅收當中居然高達9比1的部分本期會之所以會跟你提出這個問題其實那個牽扯到財政收支發放法你在上一次的會議當中提到說今年度會送進來修法是不是\n我沒有說今年度會送進去但什麼時候我想跟委員報告財政收支劃分法那涉及到地方的一個分配所以這個部分我們財政部基本上有六項的原則基本上已經有方向但是呢我們也\n跟地方政府去查詢他們對於分配指標的面﹖ 請問您部長有沒有你有打算什麼時候修法嗎財政收支方 這個部分要獲取到共識要有共識以後才能夠有把條文配出來沒有你那時候以前共識的部分是在統籌分配款的部分統籌分配款的部分是一個橫向的一個配置的部分我現在說的是縱向的配置的部分以縱向的配置的部分地方不會有意見啊你如果要下放的話他們怎麼會有意見呢這是不會有共識的問題啊\n當然在縱向的分配的部分我們第一個就是我們會保障他們的既有財源讓他們地方的稅源可以不用減少本席所列舉的這些稅基跟稅源的部分有沒有可能比例說項目上有做一個調整讓整個這個目前總體的國家稅收的比例高達9比1的情況底下做一個可能性的\n當然這個在未來在研議的時候都會做考量的那本期就是要跟你提醒啊議區在這種補助短掃的部分來大家就要做爭議的部分是不是有在從一個縱向的部分來做調整的可能性有沒有可能是我想這個部分謝謝委員的一個提示那我想我們會就中央跟地方這個垂直分配的部分要考量最近中央跟地方財經趨勢的一個變化所以說這個基本上是沒有什麼共識的問題共識的問題是在統籌分配款橫向的部分縣市之間的一些差別\n現在之間的差別確實是有這個問題每個地方的自由財源再加上整個統籌分配款的財源它所能夠依賴這個地方的比例是有所高低簡單的講台北市的自由財源加上統籌分配款它的自主程度就大概94%就很高那有些地方其實是非常低大概不到50%差別非常的大長期還沒有辦法達成共識是這個部分以至於地方政府不論是舉債也好或者是要求中央補助也好或者是賣地也好\n這種方式就紛紛出籠嘛所以說根本來說我們是不是要從財政收支法案法從1999年的時候到現在為止已經高達25年都沒有修法囉以至於說十幾年前升格的時候還列於升格三法已經經過十幾年升格已經經過十幾年二度變六度的情況底下一樣還沒有修法已經經過十幾年了部長你是不是在你任內有可能面對這個問題\n是謝謝委員的一個提示您的提示確實是那我想我們這個部分也會去考量就是說第一個要維持中央要有一個財政的韌性是要維持的第二個因為這個財政韌性要應不時之需我想說整個民主化之後整個民主化的國家在財政能力汲取的能力相對會降低我們可以理解\n​​​​​​​​​​​​​​\n十兩千零一十四億總共這樣子就同地方政府收入主要來自於中央的部分就高達八千兩百億超過他們本身的稅收60%就總體而言他依存度是高達六成\n部長 是所以說這個財政收支方法也好或統籌分配款辦法也好你應該在你任內的時候認真的去面對這個問題啊是不是能夠在未來的調整的部分呢除了剛剛從縱向的部分有一些修法的空間讓地方的這個比例不用差跟中央差那麼大之外還有在橫向的部分也就是說呢在人口跟面積的部分固定的那財政狀況喔\n你如果一直把財政官列為指標的話那就變富的更富窮的會更窮這就是統籌分配款最不公平的一個關鍵因素部長有沒有可能納入其他的方式工廠登記都在南部公司登記都在台北所以說你結果財政狀況比較好南部就比較不好這部分應該做一個調整部長有沒有可能做這樣的思考\n是委員的提示很好我們在未來考慮的時候都會把他納進去參考然後對於地方的財政需求也要去兼顧除了我們中央政府任性之外財政任性之外地方的財政需求對我希望你會有一個真正的一個方向出來本期是看到這個解凍案的時候特別來做一個提醒\n另外一個部分房屋稅的這部分我們算起來房屋稅的逃落稅率高達大概破五成你看怎麼算呢你10戶以上你最近所查到的稅務署所查到的107人的情況底下高達58%5到9戶的部分高達52%以照目前非自住的這個部分的共54萬多人的情況55%的推估大概房屋的黑數目高達30萬居多高達30萬居多可是部長\n你們每年的這個查核的部分你們之前已經查了9337件然後有4968件要補稅就是逃落稅的部分然後你們今2024年到2025兩年還要查8000件可是呢你目前為止如果就這兩個預計要查跟以前查過你還有28萬件的黑書還沒有到達到你如果按照這種計算方式兩年要查一萬件的話我算一算\n你還要再查56年部長我算過你的年齡你大概如果一直當部長的話你要123歲才能查完部長\n當然第一個加強查核是我們的一個方向第二個就是說現在有所謂的那個房屋租金的支出作為特別扣除這事實上就讓房客去報這個以後那其實我們就知道房東在哪裡問題是什麼時候才有一個效率的方法能夠你的責任是這樣你既然要把這些黑數減少就是要強化納管不是嗎\n你的責任就是強化納管嘛。對,強化納管。強化納管的部分你就是要加強查緝嘛。對。那加強查緝你要重點,重點是什麼?就是熱區嘛。是。那熱區是什麼?人口居住密集的地方嘛。是是是,對啊。對啊,那你的熱區當中的最熱的地方是哪裡?也就台北市。齁,六都當中是最關鍵的。是。\n​​​​​​​​​​​​\n你們所﹐囤戶稅的部分自己講在上次的答詢當中啊囤戶稅2.0的話預估每戶要增加2.6萬人所得稅專案平均一戶啊要增加5.6﹐5.63萬人\n議員議員議員\n​​​​​​​​​​\n有這種情況要參加的才有這個問題有強制納管的部分這是你的誘因可是沒有的部分還是有一個轉嫁的空間本席再提醒你再舉一個例子你們自己所做的研究報告當中以台北市為例你們囤房稅你們自己委託研究報告囤房稅增加2776萬元但是租金暴增在38975元暴增14倍\n這你們自己做的研究報告就台北市的關聯性這麼高或許他有高估但是基本上就代表那個關聯性很高那本席要告訴你就是說要如何減少這個房市的這個黑數這個是你的責任你要加強納管同時呢要避免轉嫁\n⋯⋯\n委員說得很適,這個部分我們資料都會給內政部做橫向的聯繫對,橫向的聯繫,他的責任是弱化轉嫁而你要強化納管,強化納管的部分除了剛剛的社會住宅的一個降低這個稅收那個稅增的部分之外還有一個方式\n你之前有提過一個經貨資金也就是臺商專案經貨資金的時候有免除課稅的這個責任嘛 對不對然後內政部當中以前移民署也對移工有自首方案嘛本席強烈檢理你啊你如果要減少這些黑數你與其每年兩年去查個一萬件你是不是可以制定一個特色方案有沒有可能性\n為什麼需要特赦你知道嗎?因為特赦條款可以不是主要檢討所以說你要納入這個制度你相對的整個這個部分透明化之後你才可以讓內政部的這個轉嫁的這個移轉弱化你唯有前面要強化強化按照你這種專案查緝的部分你要查到民國幾年你與其如此不如讓他自己來自首有沒有可能\n對至少如果他自己來報的話那就我們不會罰他至少要有誘因啊就不罰不罰除了不罰之外還有其他的辦法沒有啊當然現在還有比如說剛剛委員也提到的社會住宅或者是做包租代管公益出租人其實這個說明都是維持自用說明這個部分是可以\n部長你就用一個相關的業務運納入一個所謂的特色條款當中來進行跟房東的宣傳讓他有可能強制納管的強化納管的可能性有沒有可能是我了解我想委員這個部分我們把它整理出來也就是說現在所行的措施然後鼓勵房東把這個方案拿出來好謝謝我們把它整理出來謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.107 --> 00:24.932\n謝謝主席有請莊部長來部長請委員長部長今天解凍案中有特別針對地方政府稅款這個短少補助的部分其實根結來說還是牽扯到有關於這個財政收支法跟法跟這個統籌分配辦法的一個問題\n\n00:26.752 --> 00:43.862\n以照台灣目前的財政體制是屬於一種單一體制而非聯邦體制的情況底下我們財政會集中可以理解但是比例如果差別太大的話恐怕就會影響地方自治精神的落實舉112年的例子來說你看中央的稅款高達3兆660億就我們的辦公室的統計地方的稅款不過是3612億也就是說\n\n00:54.208 --> 01:07.725\n總體的國家的稅收當中居然高達9比1的部分本期會之所以會跟你提出這個問題其實那個牽扯到財政收支發放法你在上一次的會議當中提到說今年度會送進來修法是不是\n\n01:08.683 --> 01:22.783\n我沒有說今年度會送進去但什麼時候我想跟委員報告財政收支劃分法那涉及到地方的一個分配所以這個部分我們財政部基本上有六項的原則基本上已經有方向但是呢我們也\n\n01:23.925 --> 01:48.723\n跟地方政府去查詢他們對於分配指標的面﹖請問您部長有沒有你有打算什麼時候修法嗎財政收支方這個部分要獲取到共識要有共識以後才能夠有把條文配出來沒有你那時候以前共識的部分是在統籌分配款的部分統籌分配款的部分是一個橫向的一個配置的部分我現在說的是縱向的配置的部分以縱向的配置的部分地方不會有意見啊你如果要下放的話他們怎麼會有意見呢這是不會有共識的問題啊\n\n01:50.245 --> 02:08.542\n當然在縱向的分配的部分我們第一個就是我們會保障他們的既有財源讓他們地方的稅源可以不用減少本席所列舉的這些稅基跟稅源的部分有沒有可能比例說項目上有做一個調整讓整個這個目前總體的國家稅收的比例高達9比1的情況底下做一個可能性的\n\n02:09.122 --> 02:37.866\n當然這個在未來在研議的時候都會做考量的那本期就是要跟你提醒啊議區在這種補助短掃的部分來大家就要做爭議的部分是不是有在從一個縱向的部分來做調整的可能性有沒有可能是我想這個部分謝謝委員的一個提示那我想我們會就中央跟地方這個垂直分配的部分要考量最近中央跟地方財經趨勢的一個變化所以說這個基本上是沒有什麼共識的問題共識的問題是在統籌分配款橫向的部分縣市之間的一些差別\n\n02:38.506 --> 03:07.661\n現在之間的差別確實是有這個問題每個地方的自由財源再加上整個統籌分配款的財源它所能夠依賴這個地方的比例是有所高低簡單的講台北市的自由財源加上統籌分配款它的自主程度就大概94%就很高那有些地方其實是非常低大概不到50%差別非常的大長期還沒有辦法達成共識是這個部分以至於地方政府不論是舉債也好或者是要求中央補助也好或者是賣地也好\n\n03:08.301 --> 03:28.830\n這種方式就紛紛出籠嘛所以說根本來說我們是不是要從財政收支法案法從1999年的時候到現在為止已經高達25年都沒有修法囉以至於說十幾年前升格的時候還列於升格三法已經經過十幾年升格已經經過十幾年二度變六度的情況底下一樣還沒有修法已經經過十幾年了部長你是不是在你任內有可能面對這個問題\n\n03:30.294 --> 03:48.494\n是謝謝委員的一個提示您的提示確實是那我想我們這個部分也會去考量就是說第一個要維持中央要有一個財政的韌性是要維持的第二個因為這個財政韌性要應不時之需我想說整個民主化之後整個民主化的國家在財政能力汲取的能力相對會降低我們可以理解\n\n04:14.153 --> 04:26.939\n十兩千零一十四億總共這樣子就同地方政府收入主要來自於中央的部分就高達八千兩百億超過他們本身的稅收60%就總體而言他依存度是高達六成\n\n04:28.254 --> 04:55.942\n部長是所以說這個財政收支方法也好或統籌分配款辦法也好你應該在你任內的時候認真的去面對這個問題啊是不是能夠在未來的調整的部分呢除了剛剛從縱向的部分有一些修法的空間讓地方的這個比例不用差跟中央差那麼大之外還有在橫向的部分也就是說呢在人口跟面積的部分固定的那財政狀況喔\n\n04:57.202 --> 05:17.777\n你如果一直把財政官列為指標的話那就變富的更富窮的會更窮這就是統籌分配款最不公平的一個關鍵因素部長有沒有可能納入其他的方式工廠登記都在南部公司登記都在台北所以說你結果財政狀況比較好南部就比較不好這部分應該做一個調整部長有沒有可能做這樣的思考\n\n05:18.297 --> 05:35.862\n是委員的提示很好我們在未來考慮的時候都會把他納進去參考然後對於地方的財政需求也要去兼顧除了我們中央政府任性之外財政任性之外地方的財政需求對我希望你會有一個真正的一個方向出來本期是看到這個解凍案的時候特別來做一個提醒\n\n05:36.502 --> 06:04.132\n另外一個部分房屋稅的這部分我們算起來房屋稅的逃落稅率高達大概破五成你看怎麼算呢你10戶以上你最近所查到的稅務署所查到的107人的情況底下高達58%5到9戶的部分高達52%以照目前非自住的這個部分的共54萬多人的情況55%的推估大概房屋的黑數目高達30萬居多高達30萬居多可是部長\n\n06:04.952 --> 06:13.116\n你們每年的這個查核的部分你們之前已經查了9337件然後有4968件要補稅就是逃落稅的部分然後你們今2024年到2025兩年還要查8000件可是呢你目前為止如果就這兩個預計要查跟以前查過你還有28萬件的黑書還沒有到達到你如果按照這種計算方式兩年要查一萬件的話我算一算\n\n06:31.144 --> 06:35.217\n你還要再查56年部長我算過你的年齡你大概如果一直當部長的話你要123歲才能查完部長\n\n06:40.713 --> 07:07.038\n當然第一個加強查核是我們的一個方向第二個就是說現在有所謂的那個房屋租金的支出作為特別扣除這事實上就讓房客去報這個以後那其實我們就知道房東在哪裡問題是什麼時候才有一個效率的方法能夠你的責任是這樣你既然要把這些黑數減少就是要強化納管不是嗎\n\n07:07.958 --> 07:27.119\n你的責任就是強化納管嘛。對,強化納管。強化納管的部分你就是要加強查緝嘛。對。那加強查緝你要重點,重點是什麼?就是熱區嘛。是。那熱區是什麼?人口居住密集的地方嘛。是是是,對啊。對啊,那你的熱區當中的最熱的地方是哪裡?也就台北市。齁,六都當中是最關鍵的。是。\n\n07:47.045 --> 07:56.832\n你們所﹐囤戶稅的部分自己講在上次的答詢當中啊囤戶稅2.0的話預估每戶要增加2.6萬人所得稅專案平均一戶啊要增加5.6﹐5.63萬人\n\n08:48.385 --> 09:09.520\n有這種情況要參加的才有這個問題有強制納管的部分這是你的誘因可是沒有的部分還是有一個轉嫁的空間本席再提醒你再舉一個例子你們自己所做的研究報告當中以台北市為例你們囤房稅你們自己委託研究報告囤房稅增加2776萬元但是租金暴增在38975元暴增14倍\n\n09:15.439 --> 09:34.841\n這你們自己做的研究報告就台北市的關聯性這麼高或許他有高估但是基本上就代表那個關聯性很高那本席要告訴你就是說要如何減少這個房市的這個黑數這個是你的責任你要加強納管同時呢要避免轉嫁\n\n09:54.844 --> 10:10.622\n委員說得很適,這個部分我們資料都會給內政部做橫向的聯繫對,橫向的聯繫,他的責任是弱化轉嫁而你要強化納管,強化納管的部分除了剛剛的社會住宅的一個降低這個稅收那個稅增的部分之外還有一個方式\n\n10:11.303 --> 10:33.129\n你之前有提過一個經貨資金也就是臺商專案經貨資金的時候有免除課稅的這個責任嘛對不對然後內政部當中以前移民署也對移工有自首方案嘛本席強烈檢理你啊你如果要減少這些黑數你與其每年兩年去查個一萬件你是不是可以制定一個特色方案有沒有可能性\n\n10:37.073 --> 10:59.239\n為什麼需要特赦你知道嗎?因為特赦條款可以不是主要檢討所以說你要納入這個制度你相對的整個這個部分透明化之後你才可以讓內政部的這個轉嫁的這個移轉弱化你唯有前面要強化強化按照你這種專案查緝的部分你要查到民國幾年你與其如此不如讓他自己來自首有沒有可能\n\n11:00.420 --> 11:15.477\n對至少如果他自己來報的話那就我們不會罰他至少要有誘因啊就不罰不罰除了不罰之外還有其他的辦法沒有啊當然現在還有比如說剛剛委員也提到的社會住宅或者是做包租代管公益出租人其實這個說明都是維持自用說明這個部分是可以\n\n11:17.799 --> 11:34.510\n部長你就用一個相關的業務運納入一個所謂的特色條款當中來進行跟房東的宣傳讓他有可能強制納管的強化納管的可能性有沒有可能是我了解我想委員這個部分我們把它整理出來也就是說現在所行的措施然後鼓勵房東把這個方案拿出來好謝謝我們把它整理出來謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.107,"end":24.932,"text":"謝謝主席有請莊部長來部長請委員長部長今天解凍案中有特別針對地方政府稅款這個短少補助的部分其實根結來說還是牽扯到有關於這個財政收支法跟法跟這個統籌分配辦法的一個問題"},{"start":26.752,"end":43.862,"text":"以照台灣目前的財政體制是屬於一種單一體制而非聯邦體制的情況底下我們財政會集中可以理解但是比例如果差別太大的話恐怕就會影響地方自治精神的落實舉112年的例子來說你看中央的稅款高達3兆660億就我們的辦公室的統計地方的稅款不過是3612億也就是說"},{"start":54.208,"end":67.725,"text":"總體的國家的稅收當中居然高達9比1的部分本期會之所以會跟你提出這個問題其實那個牽扯到財政收支發放法你在上一次的會議當中提到說今年度會送進來修法是不是"},{"start":68.683,"end":82.783,"text":"我沒有說今年度會送進去但什麼時候我想跟委員報告財政收支劃分法那涉及到地方的一個分配所以這個部分我們財政部基本上有六項的原則基本上已經有方向但是呢我們也"},{"start":83.925,"end":108.723,"text":"跟地方政府去查詢他們對於分配指標的面﹖ 請問您部長有沒有你有打算什麼時候修法嗎財政收支方 這個部分要獲取到共識要有共識以後才能夠有把條文配出來沒有你那時候以前共識的部分是在統籌分配款的部分統籌分配款的部分是一個橫向的一個配置的部分我現在說的是縱向的配置的部分以縱向的配置的部分地方不會有意見啊你如果要下放的話他們怎麼會有意見呢這是不會有共識的問題啊"},{"start":110.245,"end":128.542,"text":"當然在縱向的分配的部分我們第一個就是我們會保障他們的既有財源讓他們地方的稅源可以不用減少本席所列舉的這些稅基跟稅源的部分有沒有可能比例說項目上有做一個調整讓整個這個目前總體的國家稅收的比例高達9比1的情況底下做一個可能性的"},{"start":129.122,"end":157.866,"text":"當然這個在未來在研議的時候都會做考量的那本期就是要跟你提醒啊議區在這種補助短掃的部分來大家就要做爭議的部分是不是有在從一個縱向的部分來做調整的可能性有沒有可能是我想這個部分謝謝委員的一個提示那我想我們會就中央跟地方這個垂直分配的部分要考量最近中央跟地方財經趨勢的一個變化所以說這個基本上是沒有什麼共識的問題共識的問題是在統籌分配款橫向的部分縣市之間的一些差別"},{"start":158.506,"end":187.661,"text":"現在之間的差別確實是有這個問題每個地方的自由財源再加上整個統籌分配款的財源它所能夠依賴這個地方的比例是有所高低簡單的講台北市的自由財源加上統籌分配款它的自主程度就大概94%就很高那有些地方其實是非常低大概不到50%差別非常的大長期還沒有辦法達成共識是這個部分以至於地方政府不論是舉債也好或者是要求中央補助也好或者是賣地也好"},{"start":188.301,"end":208.83,"text":"這種方式就紛紛出籠嘛所以說根本來說我們是不是要從財政收支法案法從1999年的時候到現在為止已經高達25年都沒有修法囉以至於說十幾年前升格的時候還列於升格三法已經經過十幾年升格已經經過十幾年二度變六度的情況底下一樣還沒有修法已經經過十幾年了部長你是不是在你任內有可能面對這個問題"},{"start":210.294,"end":228.494,"text":"是謝謝委員的一個提示您的提示確實是那我想我們這個部分也會去考量就是說第一個要維持中央要有一個財政的韌性是要維持的第二個因為這個財政韌性要應不時之需我想說整個民主化之後整個民主化的國家在財政能力汲取的能力相對會降低我們可以理解"},{"start":228.814,"end":253.473,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":254.153,"end":266.939,"text":"十兩千零一十四億總共這樣子就同地方政府收入主要來自於中央的部分就高達八千兩百億超過他們本身的稅收60%就總體而言他依存度是高達六成"},{"start":268.254,"end":295.942,"text":"部長 是所以說這個財政收支方法也好或統籌分配款辦法也好你應該在你任內的時候認真的去面對這個問題啊是不是能夠在未來的調整的部分呢除了剛剛從縱向的部分有一些修法的空間讓地方的這個比例不用差跟中央差那麼大之外還有在橫向的部分也就是說呢在人口跟面積的部分固定的那財政狀況喔"},{"start":297.202,"end":317.777,"text":"你如果一直把財政官列為指標的話那就變富的更富窮的會更窮這就是統籌分配款最不公平的一個關鍵因素部長有沒有可能納入其他的方式工廠登記都在南部公司登記都在台北所以說你結果財政狀況比較好南部就比較不好這部分應該做一個調整部長有沒有可能做這樣的思考"},{"start":318.297,"end":335.862,"text":"是委員的提示很好我們在未來考慮的時候都會把他納進去參考然後對於地方的財政需求也要去兼顧除了我們中央政府任性之外財政任性之外地方的財政需求對我希望你會有一個真正的一個方向出來本期是看到這個解凍案的時候特別來做一個提醒"},{"start":336.502,"end":364.132,"text":"另外一個部分房屋稅的這部分我們算起來房屋稅的逃落稅率高達大概破五成你看怎麼算呢你10戶以上你最近所查到的稅務署所查到的107人的情況底下高達58%5到9戶的部分高達52%以照目前非自住的這個部分的共54萬多人的情況55%的推估大概房屋的黑數目高達30萬居多高達30萬居多可是部長"},{"start":364.952,"end":373.116,"text":"你們每年的這個查核的部分你們之前已經查了9337件然後有4968件要補稅就是逃落稅的部分然後你們今2024年到2025兩年還要查8000件可是呢你目前為止如果就這兩個預計要查跟以前查過你還有28萬件的黑書還沒有到達到你如果按照這種計算方式兩年要查一萬件的話我算一算"},{"start":391.144,"end":395.217,"text":"你還要再查56年部長我算過你的年齡你大概如果一直當部長的話你要123歲才能查完部長"},{"start":400.713,"end":427.038,"text":"當然第一個加強查核是我們的一個方向第二個就是說現在有所謂的那個房屋租金的支出作為特別扣除這事實上就讓房客去報這個以後那其實我們就知道房東在哪裡問題是什麼時候才有一個效率的方法能夠你的責任是這樣你既然要把這些黑數減少就是要強化納管不是嗎"},{"start":427.958,"end":447.119,"text":"你的責任就是強化納管嘛。對,強化納管。強化納管的部分你就是要加強查緝嘛。對。那加強查緝你要重點,重點是什麼?就是熱區嘛。是。那熱區是什麼?人口居住密集的地方嘛。是是是,對啊。對啊,那你的熱區當中的最熱的地方是哪裡?也就台北市。齁,六都當中是最關鍵的。是。"},{"start":448.541,"end":466.852,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":467.045,"end":476.832,"text":"你們所﹐囤戶稅的部分自己講在上次的答詢當中啊囤戶稅2.0的話預估每戶要增加2.6萬人所得稅專案平均一戶啊要增加5.6﹐5.63萬人"},{"start":479.77,"end":501.067,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":501.067,"end":528.285,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":528.385,"end":549.52,"text":"有這種情況要參加的才有這個問題有強制納管的部分這是你的誘因可是沒有的部分還是有一個轉嫁的空間本席再提醒你再舉一個例子你們自己所做的研究報告當中以台北市為例你們囤房稅你們自己委託研究報告囤房稅增加2776萬元但是租金暴增在38975元暴增14倍"},{"start":555.439,"end":574.841,"text":"這你們自己做的研究報告就台北市的關聯性這麼高或許他有高估但是基本上就代表那個關聯性很高那本席要告訴你就是說要如何減少這個房市的這個黑數這個是你的責任你要加強納管同時呢要避免轉嫁"},{"start":575.862,"end":594.343,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":594.844,"end":610.622,"text":"委員說得很適,這個部分我們資料都會給內政部做橫向的聯繫對,橫向的聯繫,他的責任是弱化轉嫁而你要強化納管,強化納管的部分除了剛剛的社會住宅的一個降低這個稅收那個稅增的部分之外還有一個方式"},{"start":611.303,"end":633.129,"text":"你之前有提過一個經貨資金也就是臺商專案經貨資金的時候有免除課稅的這個責任嘛 對不對然後內政部當中以前移民署也對移工有自首方案嘛本席強烈檢理你啊你如果要減少這些黑數你與其每年兩年去查個一萬件你是不是可以制定一個特色方案有沒有可能性"},{"start":637.073,"end":659.239,"text":"為什麼需要特赦你知道嗎?因為特赦條款可以不是主要檢討所以說你要納入這個制度你相對的整個這個部分透明化之後你才可以讓內政部的這個轉嫁的這個移轉弱化你唯有前面要強化強化按照你這種專案查緝的部分你要查到民國幾年你與其如此不如讓他自己來自首有沒有可能"},{"start":660.42,"end":675.477,"text":"對至少如果他自己來報的話那就我們不會罰他至少要有誘因啊就不罰不罰除了不罰之外還有其他的辦法沒有啊當然現在還有比如說剛剛委員也提到的社會住宅或者是做包租代管公益出租人其實這個說明都是維持自用說明這個部分是可以"},{"start":677.799,"end":694.51,"text":"部長你就用一個相關的業務運納入一個所謂的特色條款當中來進行跟房東的宣傳讓他有可能強制納管的強化納管的可能性有沒有可能是我了解我想委員這個部分我們把它整理出來也就是說現在所行的措施然後鼓勵房東把這個方案拿出來好謝謝我們把它整理出來謝謝"}]}}}}