{"id":150083,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150083","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f19202290bc878ddd1ff1a6f552d80ae54d4f8ba9b0039caa7a67a26c39964b221c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:25:28 - 09:34:05","影片長度":"00:08:37","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「電子簽章法修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「電子簽章法修正草案」案。\n【第一案如經院會復議，則不予審查。】\n【本日僅進行詢答】\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":517,"end_time":"2024-03-20T09:34:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T09:25:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":88,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時25分）主席，請唐部長上臺。"],["主席：請唐部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：唐部長，我想先請問一下，我們是不是要獨創一個電子簽章的系統平臺還是應用程式一併應用在臺灣的各領域之中？"],["唐部長鳳：不是從現在開始獨創，我們本來就已經有，像自然人憑證、行動自然人憑證、工商憑證、團體憑證等等。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。其實我認可電子簽章是未來的全球趨勢，但是這有一個盲點是我們跟一般民眾不知道的，就是電子簽章不是像我們一般覺得像是Windows還是iOS一個全球性的platform、一個OS，而且它也不是一個支援的app，所以這個沒有一個硬性的國際標準讓全世界一致使用。","這樣子講，以本席的職場經驗，我以前在港務公司任職過，剛好我是第一屆港務公司的專業人員，那時候港務公司光是為了要整合高雄港、基隆港、臺中港的電子公文系統都耗日費時，花了很大的精神去做橫向溝通，而你要把每一個不同的港務局他們自己發包製作並使用多年的系統來做整合，這都是超大型工程了，本席無法想像要把全臺灣的中央加地方政府各個部門去做澈底的整合跟確認、橫向溝通無礙是多麼困難的事情，況且我們今天講的電子簽章不是只有公部門而已，包括私部門甚至未來還要到國外去，然後要跟美國甚至是我們認可的國家去做溝通。","我認為我們接下來除了透過審查程序去完善所謂電子簽章法的內容之外，三讀之後要如何落地實施，然後把我剛剛講的這一塊並輔導他們儘快過關，這才是我覺得我們應該重視的地方。","媒體報導有人透露電子簽章執行，中央部分在一年多之內可能做不太到，可能很勉強才做的到，但是地方政府比較困難，因為地方政府的縣市公所可能連專職的資訊人員都沒有，恐難符合要求。既然我們已經知道有這樣的問題，請問數位發展部的因應策略會是什麼？"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝委員垂詢，委員可能記得我們有一個發6,000塊的系統，那個系統我們現在已經改成公共建設，意思是說以後地方政府如果要做類似的發放工作的話，它不用從頭再去建制，它直接把那一套系統拿來改革網站的門面，它就可以去進行這方面的發放。我舉這個例子的意思是，我們現在定義數位的公共建設，就是地方政府可以直接使用，而且在上面進行改作，舉例來說，像行動自然人憑證裡面簽章、驗章的那個部分，我們已經協調內政部，這部分它已經可以公開的提供出來，所以地方政府如委員所擔心的不一定有那麼多充足的預算，它可以直接來使用。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，我光是這樣聽，我覺得資安方面我會滿疑慮的，你如果單單純純把發6,000塊的系統拿來跟我們未來電子簽章做連結，我覺得這個未免太……"],["唐部長鳳：發6,000也牽涉到非常多個資的傳輸，這個資安的要求其實也是非常高的。"],["林委員沛祥：是的，可是這跟電子簽章需要的資安完全不同level，我們電子簽章需要的資安的安全性更高，跟發6,000塊不太一樣，6,000塊我個人認為、我一聽起來就覺得……我想不只我這樣認為，可能在臺下的每個委員都覺得這兩個直接拿來做比較是有點太過於籠統跟兒戲。"],["唐部長鳳：我想並不是，因為我們光是要跟所有ATM去做介接或者是跟郵局介接等等，後面有非常多資安跟個資的考量，不過委員剛剛的提醒是正確的，我很同意，地方政府對於這些資安它是有責任，但它不一定有那麼多充足的人員跟經費，這部分我們就會透過剛剛講公共建設的方式來幫忙他們提供。"],["林委員沛祥：既然部長剛剛也講到說必須採購設備、必須補充人力，我想請問一下，為了擴大我們電子簽章的適用、為了加速我剛剛講各個政府機關跟加速所謂的數位轉型，請問114年數位部是不是有編列相關預算？軟硬兼施，從軟體跟硬體各方面幫助各級機關編列預算，以加速電子簽章的應用。"],["唐部長鳳：其實113（今）年即使還沒有三讀，我們就已經編了相關的公共建設。"],["林委員沛祥：請問大概多少？114年有沒有繼續編列？因為這個是要一個……"],["唐部長鳳：對，它都是中長程，就是4年的，舉例來說，像幫忙地方政府做數位核銷，就是它做一些長照等等的部分。"],["林委員沛祥：每年大概編列多少？"],["唐部長鳳：這部分有編列大概3、4億元。"],["林委員沛祥：夠嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：至於數政司的部分，剛剛提到6,000塊的部分，我們也編了好幾億元。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，老實講1年3、4億元給全國去做這樣的轉型是遠遠不夠的，其實你自己也知道，我認為3、4億全國……"],["唐部長鳳：我們在講的是一個全部通用的系統，並不是他們還需要人去安裝部署，而是大家都在上面進行使用。關於這樣子的公共建設我們有4支，大概每一支都是在3億元左右。"],["林委員沛祥：我覺得我需要更完整的書面報告。"],["唐部長鳳：沒問題，我們絕對提供書面給你。"],["林委員沛祥：不然1年3、4億元，全國中央加地方各個部門只是要靠3、4億元的系統，然後就……"],["唐部長鳳：我們有4支類似這樣的公建計畫。"],["林委員沛祥：是1年3、4億還是整個系統3、4億？"],["唐部長鳳：1年。"],["林委員沛祥：這個計畫總共幾年？"],["唐部長鳳：都是4年期的計畫。"],["林委員沛祥：所以差不多有16億去做這些計畫。"],["唐部長鳳：然後有一些其他的……"],["林委員沛祥：有16億，你說3年之內，可是3年之內的話會不會有更多？因為數位方面的改變特別快，而且資安部分，剛剛林國成委員也提到，以資安來講，駭客的知識學習程度跟進步程度遠高於我們的工程師，我想你身為IT人才一定知道這個事情。"],["唐部長鳳：當然。"],["林委員沛祥：如果這3、4年之內我們還要慢慢去做轉型的話，是不是在這之前資安就已經被突破了？"],["唐部長鳳：這兩件事情我想要分開看待，我們編列到資安上的預算當然不是您剛剛講的電子簽章公建相關的預算，資安的預算當然是更多，這是第一點。第2點就是剛才所提到的地方政府的額外需求，當然我們現在跟內政部在蒐集需求之後，明年還會再提額外的公共建設。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，我想既然中央機關已經普遍支持電子簽章的適用，以這方面來講，與其全部都慢慢弄個3年、弄個統包的系統，倒不如我們試著1年，如果可以改變的趕快改變，如果不行就用其他的方式去做緩衝處理。所以在這部分，部長是不是可以支持葛如鈞委員的版本？就是政府部門的緩衝期以1年為原則，如果有例外再研議其他方式來處理。"],["唐部長鳳：您剛剛所說其他方式的意思？"],["林委員沛祥：就是以個案來處理，譬如有些比較偏遠的縣市公所，他們如果沒辦法那麼快速的能夠符合我們的要求，是不是可以請他們用別的方法，比如用專案來處理？"],["唐部長鳳：我想也可以反過來，就是如果1年就可以ready的，我們會儘快提供給委員，至於其他的部分，因為需要用法律來排除，它有一個立法程序，如果說一定要1年內完成立法程序，這個不一定能夠那麼快達成。"],["林委員沛祥：好。我想特別請部長解釋一下，在你的修法裡面，第十五條有提到好像是有關滿足安全性的規範……"],["唐部長鳳：安全還是一樣的。"],["林委員沛祥：對，安全性的規範需求，不過後來那邊又加一個好像是所謂的……"],["唐部長鳳：技術對接。"],["林委員沛祥：除了技術對接，還有另外一個是跨國安全。"],["唐部長鳳：本來是安全要相同以及跨國互惠，就是要簽個條約嘛！這兩個都要。"],["林委員沛祥：請問跨國互惠這句話的意思是什麼？"],["唐部長鳳：就是我們如果認對方的憑證，那麼對方政府也要認我們的憑證。"],["林委員沛祥：如果以中國來講呢？"],["唐部長鳳：這個就是因為我們現在在條約簽訂上面並沒有那麼容易，所以我們現在是說跨國互惠是一種，但是技術對接也是另外一種，技術對接就可以避免掉很多條約、法律及政治相關的問題。"],["林委員沛祥：既然有關資安的話，那我想請問一下，我們如何保證未來電子簽章的應用程式跟系統？"],["唐部長鳳：這部分我們是不是會後用書面提供？我們有準備書面。"],["林委員沛祥：好，我也想知道你們是怎麼樣審核、怎麼樣核定這方面。"],["唐部長鳳：是，謝謝。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝。"],["主席（何委員欣純代）：謝謝部長、謝謝林委員。","接下來質詢的是我們的召委李昆澤。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","葛如鈞","林國成","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","廖先翔","徐富癸","林俊憲","邱若華","游顥","許智傑","蔡其昌","謝衣鳯","魯明哲","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","張啓楷","黃健豪"],"page_start":331,"meetingDate":["2024-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「電子簽章法修正草案」案；二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「電子簽\n章法修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1131601_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"150083","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150083","tool":"pyannote","id":"150083-pyannote"},"job_id":"UQtxYTncMKmMEA4Q","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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00:01:00,700\n因為我認為其實我是認可說電子簽章是未來的全球趨勢但是這個有一個盲點是我們跟一般民眾不知道的就是說電子簽章這不是像是我們一般覺得像是Windows還是iOS一個全球性的一個platform一個OS而且它是不是也不是一個支援的APP所以這個沒有一個硬性的全國一個國際標準讓全世界一直使用\n\n3\n00:01:01,420 --> 00:01:25,632\n而這樣子講啦以本席的職場經驗我以前在港務公司認知過剛好我是第一屆港務公司的專業人員那時候港務公司光為了要整合高雄港、基隆港、台中港的電子公文系統都耗日費時花了很大的精神去做橫向溝通而你要把每一個不同的港務局他們自己八包製作並使用多年的系統來做整合都超大型工程了\n\n4\n00:01:26,272 --> 00:01:48,347\n本席無法想像要把全臺灣的中央加地方政府各個部門來去做徹底的整合跟確認橫向溝通無礙是多麼困難的事情。更包括過說我們今天講的電子簽章不是只有公部門而已包括私部門甚至在未來還要到國外去然後要跟美國甚至說我們認可的國家來去做溝通。\n\n5\n00:01:50,427 --> 00:02:02,238\n我認為現在我們除了透過接下來審查程序我們來去完善所謂電子簽章法的內容之外我認為三讀之後如何落地實施然後把我剛剛講這一塊能夠輔導他們盡快能夠過關這才是我覺得我們應該重視的地方\n\n6\n00:02:07,222 --> 00:02:34,391\n有媒體報導說有人透露電子簽章執行中央部分在一年多之內可能做不太到可能明顯很勉強地做得到但是地方政府比較困難因為地方政府的縣市公所可能連專職的資訊人員都沒有恐然符合到要求那既然我們已經知道有像這樣的問題請問數位發展部的因應策略或是什麼好謝謝委員垂詢委員可能記得我們有一個發六千塊的系統\n\n7\n00:02:35,111 --> 00:03:01,993\n那個系統我們現在已經改成公共建設意思是說以後地方政府如果要做類似的發放的工作的話他不用從頭再去建置他直接把那一套系統拿來改個網站的門面他就可以去進行這方面的發放我舉這個例子的意思就是說我們現在定義數位的公共建設就是地方政府可以直接使用而且在上面再進行改作舉例來說像行動自然人憑證裡面簽章、驗章的那個部分\n\n8\n00:03:02,373 --> 00:03:14,642\n我們已經協調內政部這一部分他已經公開的可以提供出來所以地方政府如果有人所擔心的就是不一定有那麼多充足的運算他可以直接來使用我會蠻疑慮的你如果單單純純把發6000塊的系統拿來跟我們未來的電子簽章來做連結我覺得這個我覺得發6000也牽涉到非常多各自的傳說這個其實資安要求也是非常高\n\n9\n00:03:25,529 --> 00:03:45,176\n對的可是這跟電子簽章需要的治安完全不同level這個是我們電子簽章需要的這個治安的安全性更高高的多不跟發6000塊不太一樣6000塊我個人認為這個我一聽起來覺得說我想不只我不只我這樣認為可能在我們台下的每個委員都覺得這兩個直接拿來做比較是有點太過於籠統跟兒戲\n\n10\n00:03:48,280 --> 00:04:08,426\n我想並不是因為像我們光是要跟所有ATM去做借劫或者是跟郵局借劫等等他後面有非常多資安跟各自的考量不過委員剛剛的提醒是正確的我很同意就是說地方政府對於這些資安他是有責任但是他不一定有那麼多充足的人員跟經費這部分我們就會透過剛剛講公共建設的方式來幫忙他們提供\n\n11\n00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:35,053\n好,既然部長你剛剛也講到說必須採購設備必須補充人力那我這樣想請問一下說為了擴大我們電子簽章的適用為了加速我剛剛講各個政府機關來加速所謂的數位轉型請問114年數位部是不是有編列相關預算從軟硬兼施軟體跟硬體各方面幫助各級機關來加來編列預算加速我們電子簽章的應用\n\n12\n00:04:35,553 --> 00:04:55,363\n其實我們1、1、3就是今年即使還沒有散讀我們就已經編了相關的公共建設那請問大概多少那1、1、4有沒有繼續編列因為這個是要一個對他都是中長程就是4年的那我們舉例來說像幫忙地方政府做數月的核銷就是他做一些長照等等的這一部分這一部分有編列大概3、4億元那\n\n13\n00:04:56,944 --> 00:05:25,346\n然後在那個我們的就是數證室的部分剛剛提到6000的部分,我們也編了好幾億元。部長,我們事實上3、4億一年給全國的、全國3、4億一年給全國來去做數、來去做這樣的這種轉型其實遠遠不夠的。其實你自己也知道每一個,我是認為3、4億全國﹖我怎麼在講的是一個全部通用的系統,並不是說他們還需要人去安裝部署,而是大家都在上面進行使用。所以關於這樣子的公共建設我們有4支,那大概每一支都是在3億人左右。\n\n14\n00:05:28,014 --> 00:05:32,559\n議長,我覺得我需要更完整的書面報告,不然的話我絕對書面提供給你。我們有四支類似這樣的公建計畫?一年啦一年。總共這個計畫總共幾年?\n\n15\n00:05:45,070 --> 00:05:45,591\n新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n\n16\n00:06:15,871 --> 00:06:33,151\n這兩件事情我想要分開看待。我們編列到資安上的預算當然不是您剛剛講的這個電子簽章公建相關的預算。資安的預算當然是更多這第一點。那第二點就是剛才所提到說地方政府的額外需求當然我們現在包含跟內政部在收集需求之後明年還會再提額外的公共建設。\n\n17\n00:06:33,820 --> 00:06:57,941\n我認為部長既然我們中央機關已經普遍支持我們電子簽章的試用然後我們其實這方面來講與其說全部都慢慢弄個三年然後弄個同胞的系統倒不如說我們試著一年如果可以改變的趕快改變如果不行的我們用其他的方式用其他的方式來去做環中處理所以我在這邊部長是不是可以承諾說支持葛如鈞委員的版本\n\n18\n00:06:59,482 --> 00:07:19,096\n政府部門的緩衝期以一年為原則如有例外再研議以其他方式來處理呢?您剛剛所說的其他方式的意思就是說以個案來處理比如說有些比較偏遠的那個縣市公所他們如果沒辦法那麼快速的能夠符合我們的要求是不是可以說請他們用別的方法用專案來處理?\n\n19\n00:07:19,676 --> 00:07:32,277\n我想也可以反過來就是說如果一年就可以ready的那我們盡快提供給委員那其他的部分因為需要用法律來排除還有一個立法程序啦所以一定要一年內完成立法程序這個不一定是能夠那麼快達成\n\n20\n00:07:34,622 --> 00:07:56,773\n時間不夠我想特別請部長解釋一下在你的修法在你的修法裡面第15條有講到一塊好像是有關有關滿足安全性的規範安全還是一樣的對安全性的規範需求不過後來那邊又加一個好像是所謂的技術對接技術對接還有另外一個跨國安全\n\n21\n00:07:57,153 --> 00:08:02,700\n本來是安全要相同以及跨國互惠就是要簽個條約嘛。這兩個都有。就是我們如果認對方的憑證對方政府也要認我們的憑證嘛。\n\n22\n00:08:08,860 --> 00:08:35,174\n﹏所以這個就是因為我們現在在條約簽訂上面並沒有那麼容易所以我們現在是說跨國互惠是一種但是技術對接也是另外一種技術對接就可以避免掉很多條約法律跟政治相關的問題那既然既然有關治安的話那我想請問一下我們如何我們如何保證說我們未來這個電子簽章的這個應用程式跟系統這部分我們是不是會後用書面提供我們有準備書面好我也想知道說你們是怎麼樣審核怎麼樣核定這方面的安全性好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11031\t35786\t主席,請唐部長上台。請唐部長。委員好。唐部長,我想先請問一下,我們是不是要獨創一個電子簽章的系統、平台還是應用程式,並應用在台灣的各領域之中?不是從現在開始獨創,我們現在本來就已經有,像自然憑證、行動自然憑證、工商憑證、土地憑證等等。\n37130\t60700\t因為我認為其實我是認可說電子簽章是未來的全球趨勢但是這個有一個盲點是我們跟一般民眾不知道的就是說電子簽章這不是像是我們一般覺得像是Windows還是iOS一個全球性的一個platform一個OS而且它是不是也不是一個支援的APP所以這個沒有一個硬性的全國一個國際標準讓全世界一直使用\n61420\t85632\t而這樣子講啦以本席的職場經驗我以前在港務公司認知過剛好我是第一屆港務公司的專業人員那時候港務公司光為了要整合高雄港、基隆港、台中港的電子公文系統都耗日費時花了很大的精神去做橫向溝通而你要把每一個不同的港務局他們自己八包製作並使用多年的系統來做整合都超大型工程了\n86272\t108347\t本席無法想像要把全臺灣的中央加地方政府各個部門來去做徹底的整合跟確認橫向溝通無礙是多麼困難的事情。更包括過說我們今天講的電子簽章不是只有公部門而已包括私部門甚至在未來還要到國外去然後要跟美國甚至說我們認可的國家來去做溝通。\n110427\t122238\t我認為現在我們除了透過接下來審查程序我們來去完善所謂電子簽章法的內容之外我認為三讀之後如何落地實施然後把我剛剛講這一塊能夠輔導他們盡快能夠過關這才是我覺得我們應該重視的地方\n127222\t154391\t有媒體報導說有人透露電子簽章執行中央部分在一年多之內可能做不太到可能明顯很勉強地做得到但是地方政府比較困難因為地方政府的縣市公所可能連專職的資訊人員都沒有恐然符合到要求那既然我們已經知道有像這樣的問題請問數位發展部的因應策略或是什麼好謝謝委員垂詢委員可能記得我們有一個發六千塊的系統\n155111\t181993\t那個系統我們現在已經改成公共建設意思是說以後地方政府如果要做類似的發放的工作的話他不用從頭再去建置他直接把那一套系統拿來改個網站的門面他就可以去進行這方面的發放我舉這個例子的意思就是說我們現在定義數位的公共建設就是地方政府可以直接使用而且在上面再進行改作舉例來說像行動自然人憑證裡面簽章、驗章的那個部分\n182373\t194642\t我們已經協調內政部這一部分他已經公開的可以提供出來所以地方政府如果有人所擔心的就是不一定有那麼多充足的運算他可以直接來使用我會蠻疑慮的你如果單單純純把發6000塊的系統拿來跟我們未來的電子簽章來做連結我覺得這個我覺得發6000也牽涉到非常多各自的傳說這個其實資安要求也是非常高\n205529\t225176\t對的可是這跟電子簽章需要的治安完全不同level這個是我們電子簽章需要的這個治安的安全性更高高的多不跟發6000塊不太一樣6000塊我個人認為這個我一聽起來覺得說我想不只我不只我這樣認為可能在我們台下的每個委員都覺得這兩個直接拿來做比較是有點太過於籠統跟兒戲\n228280\t248426\t我想並不是因為像我們光是要跟所有ATM去做借劫或者是跟郵局借劫等等他後面有非常多資安跟各自的考量不過委員剛剛的提醒是正確的我很同意就是說地方政府對於這些資安他是有責任但是他不一定有那麼多充足的人員跟經費這部分我們就會透過剛剛講公共建設的方式來幫忙他們提供\n249360\t275053\t好,既然部長你剛剛也講到說必須採購設備必須補充人力那我這樣想請問一下說為了擴大我們電子簽章的適用為了加速我剛剛講各個政府機關來加速所謂的數位轉型請問114年數位部是不是有編列相關預算從軟硬兼施軟體跟硬體各方面幫助各級機關來加來編列預算加速我們電子簽章的應用\n275553\t295363\t其實我們1、1、3就是今年即使還沒有散讀我們就已經編了相關的公共建設那請問大概多少那1、1、4有沒有繼續編列因為這個是要一個對他都是中長程就是4年的那我們舉例來說像幫忙地方政府做數月的核銷就是他做一些長照等等的這一部分這一部分有編列大概3、4億元那\n296944\t325346\t然後在那個我們的就是數證室的部分剛剛提到6000的部分,我們也編了好幾億元。 部長,我們事實上3、4億一年給全國的、全國3、4億一年給全國來去做數、來去做這樣的這種轉型其實遠遠不夠的。其實你自己也知道每一個,我是認為3、4億全國﹖我怎麼在講的是一個全部通用的系統,並不是說他們還需要人去安裝部署,而是大家都在上面進行使用。所以關於這樣子的公共建設我們有4支,那大概每一支都是在3億人左右。\n328014\t332559\t議長,我覺得我需要更完整的書面報告,不然的話我絕對書面提供給你。我們有四支類似這樣的公建計畫?一年啦一年。總共這個計畫總共幾年?\n345070\t345591\t新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n375871\t393151\t這兩件事情我想要分開看待。我們編列到資安上的預算當然不是您剛剛講的這個電子簽章公建相關的預算。資安的預算當然是更多這第一點。那第二點就是剛才所提到說地方政府的額外需求當然我們現在包含跟內政部在收集需求之後明年還會再提額外的公共建設。\n393820\t417941\t我認為部長既然我們中央機關已經普遍支持我們電子簽章的試用然後我們其實這方面來講與其說全部都慢慢弄個三年然後弄個同胞的系統倒不如說我們試著一年如果可以改變的趕快改變如果不行的我們用其他的方式用其他的方式來去做環中處理所以我在這邊部長是不是可以承諾說支持葛如鈞委員的版本\n419482\t439096\t政府部門的緩衝期以一年為原則如有例外再研議以其他方式來處理呢?您剛剛所說的其他方式的意思就是說以個案來處理比如說有些比較偏遠的那個縣市公所他們如果沒辦法那麼快速的能夠符合我們的要求是不是可以說請他們用別的方法用專案來處理?\n439676\t452277\t我想也可以反過來就是說如果一年就可以ready的那我們盡快提供給委員那其他的部分因為需要用法律來排除還有一個立法程序啦所以一定要一年內完成立法程序這個不一定是能夠那麼快達成\n454622\t476773\t時間不夠我想特別請部長解釋一下在你的修法在你的修法裡面第15條有講到一塊好像是有關有關滿足安全性的規範安全還是一樣的對安全性的規範需求不過後來那邊又加一個好像是所謂的技術對接技術對接還有另外一個跨國安全\n477153\t482700\t本來是安全要相同以及跨國互惠就是要簽個條約嘛。這兩個都有。就是我們如果認對方的憑證對方政府也要認我們的憑證嘛。\n488860\t515174\t﹏所以這個就是因為我們現在在條約簽訂上面並沒有那麼容易所以我們現在是說跨國互惠是一種但是技術對接也是另外一種技術對接就可以避免掉很多條約法律跟政治相關的問題那既然既然有關治安的話那我想請問一下我們如何我們如何保證說我們未來這個電子簽章的這個應用程式跟系統這部分我們是不是會後用書面提供我們有準備書面好我也想知道說你們是怎麼樣審核怎麼樣核定這方面的安全性好謝謝\n","txt":"主席,請唐部長上台。請唐部長。委員好。唐部長,我想先請問一下,我們是不是要獨創一個電子簽章的系統、平台還是應用程式,並應用在台灣的各領域之中?不是從現在開始獨創,我們現在本來就已經有,像自然憑證、行動自然憑證、工商憑證、土地憑證等等。\n因為我認為其實我是認可說電子簽章是未來的全球趨勢但是這個有一個盲點是我們跟一般民眾不知道的就是說電子簽章這不是像是我們一般覺得像是Windows還是iOS一個全球性的一個platform一個OS而且它是不是也不是一個支援的APP所以這個沒有一個硬性的全國一個國際標準讓全世界一直使用\n而這樣子講啦以本席的職場經驗我以前在港務公司認知過剛好我是第一屆港務公司的專業人員那時候港務公司光為了要整合高雄港、基隆港、台中港的電子公文系統都耗日費時花了很大的精神去做橫向溝通而你要把每一個不同的港務局他們自己八包製作並使用多年的系統來做整合都超大型工程了\n本席無法想像要把全臺灣的中央加地方政府各個部門來去做徹底的整合跟確認橫向溝通無礙是多麼困難的事情。更包括過說我們今天講的電子簽章不是只有公部門而已包括私部門甚至在未來還要到國外去然後要跟美國甚至說我們認可的國家來去做溝通。\n我認為現在我們除了透過接下來審查程序我們來去完善所謂電子簽章法的內容之外我認為三讀之後如何落地實施然後把我剛剛講這一塊能夠輔導他們盡快能夠過關這才是我覺得我們應該重視的地方\n有媒體報導說有人透露電子簽章執行中央部分在一年多之內可能做不太到可能明顯很勉強地做得到但是地方政府比較困難因為地方政府的縣市公所可能連專職的資訊人員都沒有恐然符合到要求那既然我們已經知道有像這樣的問題請問數位發展部的因應策略或是什麼好謝謝委員垂詢委員可能記得我們有一個發六千塊的系統\n那個系統我們現在已經改成公共建設意思是說以後地方政府如果要做類似的發放的工作的話他不用從頭再去建置他直接把那一套系統拿來改個網站的門面他就可以去進行這方面的發放我舉這個例子的意思就是說我們現在定義數位的公共建設就是地方政府可以直接使用而且在上面再進行改作舉例來說像行動自然人憑證裡面簽章、驗章的那個部分\n我們已經協調內政部這一部分他已經公開的可以提供出來所以地方政府如果有人所擔心的就是不一定有那麼多充足的運算他可以直接來使用我會蠻疑慮的你如果單單純純把發6000塊的系統拿來跟我們未來的電子簽章來做連結我覺得這個我覺得發6000也牽涉到非常多各自的傳說這個其實資安要求也是非常高\n對的可是這跟電子簽章需要的治安完全不同level這個是我們電子簽章需要的這個治安的安全性更高高的多不跟發6000塊不太一樣6000塊我個人認為這個我一聽起來覺得說我想不只我不只我這樣認為可能在我們台下的每個委員都覺得這兩個直接拿來做比較是有點太過於籠統跟兒戲\n我想並不是因為像我們光是要跟所有ATM去做借劫或者是跟郵局借劫等等他後面有非常多資安跟各自的考量不過委員剛剛的提醒是正確的我很同意就是說地方政府對於這些資安他是有責任但是他不一定有那麼多充足的人員跟經費這部分我們就會透過剛剛講公共建設的方式來幫忙他們提供\n好,既然部長你剛剛也講到說必須採購設備必須補充人力那我這樣想請問一下說為了擴大我們電子簽章的適用為了加速我剛剛講各個政府機關來加速所謂的數位轉型請問114年數位部是不是有編列相關預算從軟硬兼施軟體跟硬體各方面幫助各級機關來加來編列預算加速我們電子簽章的應用\n其實我們1、1、3就是今年即使還沒有散讀我們就已經編了相關的公共建設那請問大概多少那1、1、4有沒有繼續編列因為這個是要一個對他都是中長程就是4年的那我們舉例來說像幫忙地方政府做數月的核銷就是他做一些長照等等的這一部分這一部分有編列大概3、4億元那\n然後在那個我們的就是數證室的部分剛剛提到6000的部分,我們也編了好幾億元。 部長,我們事實上3、4億一年給全國的、全國3、4億一年給全國來去做數、來去做這樣的這種轉型其實遠遠不夠的。其實你自己也知道每一個,我是認為3、4億全國﹖我怎麼在講的是一個全部通用的系統,並不是說他們還需要人去安裝部署,而是大家都在上面進行使用。所以關於這樣子的公共建設我們有4支,那大概每一支都是在3億人左右。\n議長,我覺得我需要更完整的書面報告,不然的話我絕對書面提供給你。我們有四支類似這樣的公建計畫?一年啦一年。總共這個計畫總共幾年?\n新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n這兩件事情我想要分開看待。我們編列到資安上的預算當然不是您剛剛講的這個電子簽章公建相關的預算。資安的預算當然是更多這第一點。那第二點就是剛才所提到說地方政府的額外需求當然我們現在包含跟內政部在收集需求之後明年還會再提額外的公共建設。\n我認為部長既然我們中央機關已經普遍支持我們電子簽章的試用然後我們其實這方面來講與其說全部都慢慢弄個三年然後弄個同胞的系統倒不如說我們試著一年如果可以改變的趕快改變如果不行的我們用其他的方式用其他的方式來去做環中處理所以我在這邊部長是不是可以承諾說支持葛如鈞委員的版本\n政府部門的緩衝期以一年為原則如有例外再研議以其他方式來處理呢?您剛剛所說的其他方式的意思就是說以個案來處理比如說有些比較偏遠的那個縣市公所他們如果沒辦法那麼快速的能夠符合我們的要求是不是可以說請他們用別的方法用專案來處理?\n我想也可以反過來就是說如果一年就可以ready的那我們盡快提供給委員那其他的部分因為需要用法律來排除還有一個立法程序啦所以一定要一年內完成立法程序這個不一定是能夠那麼快達成\n時間不夠我想特別請部長解釋一下在你的修法在你的修法裡面第15條有講到一塊好像是有關有關滿足安全性的規範安全還是一樣的對安全性的規範需求不過後來那邊又加一個好像是所謂的技術對接技術對接還有另外一個跨國安全\n本來是安全要相同以及跨國互惠就是要簽個條約嘛。這兩個都有。就是我們如果認對方的憑證對方政府也要認我們的憑證嘛。\n﹏所以這個就是因為我們現在在條約簽訂上面並沒有那麼容易所以我們現在是說跨國互惠是一種但是技術對接也是另外一種技術對接就可以避免掉很多條約法律跟政治相關的問題那既然既然有關治安的話那我想請問一下我們如何我們如何保證說我們未來這個電子簽章的這個應用程式跟系統這部分我們是不是會後用書面提供我們有準備書面好我也想知道說你們是怎麼樣審核怎麼樣核定這方面的安全性好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.031 --> 00:35.786\n主席,請唐部長上台。請唐部長。委員好。唐部長,我想先請問一下,我們是不是要獨創一個電子簽章的系統、平台還是應用程式,並應用在台灣的各領域之中?不是從現在開始獨創,我們現在本來就已經有,像自然憑證、行動自然憑證、工商憑證、土地憑證等等。\n\n00:37.130 --> 01:00.700\n因為我認為其實我是認可說電子簽章是未來的全球趨勢但是這個有一個盲點是我們跟一般民眾不知道的就是說電子簽章這不是像是我們一般覺得像是Windows還是iOS一個全球性的一個platform一個OS而且它是不是也不是一個支援的APP所以這個沒有一個硬性的全國一個國際標準讓全世界一直使用\n\n01:01.420 --> 01:25.632\n而這樣子講啦以本席的職場經驗我以前在港務公司認知過剛好我是第一屆港務公司的專業人員那時候港務公司光為了要整合高雄港、基隆港、台中港的電子公文系統都耗日費時花了很大的精神去做橫向溝通而你要把每一個不同的港務局他們自己八包製作並使用多年的系統來做整合都超大型工程了\n\n01:26.272 --> 01:48.347\n本席無法想像要把全臺灣的中央加地方政府各個部門來去做徹底的整合跟確認橫向溝通無礙是多麼困難的事情。更包括過說我們今天講的電子簽章不是只有公部門而已包括私部門甚至在未來還要到國外去然後要跟美國甚至說我們認可的國家來去做溝通。\n\n01:50.427 --> 02:02.238\n我認為現在我們除了透過接下來審查程序我們來去完善所謂電子簽章法的內容之外我認為三讀之後如何落地實施然後把我剛剛講這一塊能夠輔導他們盡快能夠過關這才是我覺得我們應該重視的地方\n\n02:07.222 --> 02:34.391\n有媒體報導說有人透露電子簽章執行中央部分在一年多之內可能做不太到可能明顯很勉強地做得到但是地方政府比較困難因為地方政府的縣市公所可能連專職的資訊人員都沒有恐然符合到要求那既然我們已經知道有像這樣的問題請問數位發展部的因應策略或是什麼好謝謝委員垂詢委員可能記得我們有一個發六千塊的系統\n\n02:35.111 --> 03:01.993\n那個系統我們現在已經改成公共建設意思是說以後地方政府如果要做類似的發放的工作的話他不用從頭再去建置他直接把那一套系統拿來改個網站的門面他就可以去進行這方面的發放我舉這個例子的意思就是說我們現在定義數位的公共建設就是地方政府可以直接使用而且在上面再進行改作舉例來說像行動自然人憑證裡面簽章、驗章的那個部分\n\n03:02.373 --> 03:14.642\n我們已經協調內政部這一部分他已經公開的可以提供出來所以地方政府如果有人所擔心的就是不一定有那麼多充足的運算他可以直接來使用我會蠻疑慮的你如果單單純純把發6000塊的系統拿來跟我們未來的電子簽章來做連結我覺得這個我覺得發6000也牽涉到非常多各自的傳說這個其實資安要求也是非常高\n\n03:25.529 --> 03:45.176\n對的可是這跟電子簽章需要的治安完全不同level這個是我們電子簽章需要的這個治安的安全性更高高的多不跟發6000塊不太一樣6000塊我個人認為這個我一聽起來覺得說我想不只我不只我這樣認為可能在我們台下的每個委員都覺得這兩個直接拿來做比較是有點太過於籠統跟兒戲\n\n03:48.280 --> 04:08.426\n我想並不是因為像我們光是要跟所有ATM去做借劫或者是跟郵局借劫等等他後面有非常多資安跟各自的考量不過委員剛剛的提醒是正確的我很同意就是說地方政府對於這些資安他是有責任但是他不一定有那麼多充足的人員跟經費這部分我們就會透過剛剛講公共建設的方式來幫忙他們提供\n\n04:09.360 --> 04:35.053\n好,既然部長你剛剛也講到說必須採購設備必須補充人力那我這樣想請問一下說為了擴大我們電子簽章的適用為了加速我剛剛講各個政府機關來加速所謂的數位轉型請問114年數位部是不是有編列相關預算從軟硬兼施軟體跟硬體各方面幫助各級機關來加來編列預算加速我們電子簽章的應用\n\n04:35.553 --> 04:55.363\n其實我們1、1、3就是今年即使還沒有散讀我們就已經編了相關的公共建設那請問大概多少那1、1、4有沒有繼續編列因為這個是要一個對他都是中長程就是4年的那我們舉例來說像幫忙地方政府做數月的核銷就是他做一些長照等等的這一部分這一部分有編列大概3、4億元那\n\n04:56.944 --> 05:25.346\n然後在那個我們的就是數證室的部分剛剛提到6000的部分,我們也編了好幾億元。部長,我們事實上3、4億一年給全國的、全國3、4億一年給全國來去做數、來去做這樣的這種轉型其實遠遠不夠的。其實你自己也知道每一個,我是認為3、4億全國﹖我怎麼在講的是一個全部通用的系統,並不是說他們還需要人去安裝部署,而是大家都在上面進行使用。所以關於這樣子的公共建設我們有4支,那大概每一支都是在3億人左右。\n\n05:28.014 --> 05:32.559\n議長,我覺得我需要更完整的書面報告,不然的話我絕對書面提供給你。我們有四支類似這樣的公建計畫?一年啦一年。總共這個計畫總共幾年?\n\n05:45.070 --> 05:45.591\n新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞\n\n06:15.871 --> 06:33.151\n這兩件事情我想要分開看待。我們編列到資安上的預算當然不是您剛剛講的這個電子簽章公建相關的預算。資安的預算當然是更多這第一點。那第二點就是剛才所提到說地方政府的額外需求當然我們現在包含跟內政部在收集需求之後明年還會再提額外的公共建設。\n\n06:33.820 --> 06:57.941\n我認為部長既然我們中央機關已經普遍支持我們電子簽章的試用然後我們其實這方面來講與其說全部都慢慢弄個三年然後弄個同胞的系統倒不如說我們試著一年如果可以改變的趕快改變如果不行的我們用其他的方式用其他的方式來去做環中處理所以我在這邊部長是不是可以承諾說支持葛如鈞委員的版本\n\n06:59.482 --> 07:19.096\n政府部門的緩衝期以一年為原則如有例外再研議以其他方式來處理呢?您剛剛所說的其他方式的意思就是說以個案來處理比如說有些比較偏遠的那個縣市公所他們如果沒辦法那麼快速的能夠符合我們的要求是不是可以說請他們用別的方法用專案來處理?\n\n07:19.676 --> 07:32.277\n我想也可以反過來就是說如果一年就可以ready的那我們盡快提供給委員那其他的部分因為需要用法律來排除還有一個立法程序啦所以一定要一年內完成立法程序這個不一定是能夠那麼快達成\n\n07:34.622 --> 07:56.773\n時間不夠我想特別請部長解釋一下在你的修法在你的修法裡面第15條有講到一塊好像是有關有關滿足安全性的規範安全還是一樣的對安全性的規範需求不過後來那邊又加一個好像是所謂的技術對接技術對接還有另外一個跨國安全\n\n07:57.153 --> 08:02.700\n本來是安全要相同以及跨國互惠就是要簽個條約嘛。這兩個都有。就是我們如果認對方的憑證對方政府也要認我們的憑證嘛。\n\n08:08.860 --> 08:35.174\n﹏所以這個就是因為我們現在在條約簽訂上面並沒有那麼容易所以我們現在是說跨國互惠是一種但是技術對接也是另外一種技術對接就可以避免掉很多條約法律跟政治相關的問題那既然既然有關治安的話那我想請問一下我們如何我們如何保證說我們未來這個電子簽章的這個應用程式跟系統這部分我們是不是會後用書面提供我們有準備書面好我也想知道說你們是怎麼樣審核怎麼樣核定這方面的安全性好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.031,"end":35.786,"text":"主席,請唐部長上台。請唐部長。委員好。唐部長,我想先請問一下,我們是不是要獨創一個電子簽章的系統、平台還是應用程式,並應用在台灣的各領域之中?不是從現在開始獨創,我們現在本來就已經有,像自然憑證、行動自然憑證、工商憑證、土地憑證等等。"},{"start":37.13,"end":60.7,"text":"因為我認為其實我是認可說電子簽章是未來的全球趨勢但是這個有一個盲點是我們跟一般民眾不知道的就是說電子簽章這不是像是我們一般覺得像是Windows還是iOS一個全球性的一個platform一個OS而且它是不是也不是一個支援的APP所以這個沒有一個硬性的全國一個國際標準讓全世界一直使用"},{"start":61.42,"end":85.632,"text":"而這樣子講啦以本席的職場經驗我以前在港務公司認知過剛好我是第一屆港務公司的專業人員那時候港務公司光為了要整合高雄港、基隆港、台中港的電子公文系統都耗日費時花了很大的精神去做橫向溝通而你要把每一個不同的港務局他們自己八包製作並使用多年的系統來做整合都超大型工程了"},{"start":86.272,"end":108.347,"text":"本席無法想像要把全臺灣的中央加地方政府各個部門來去做徹底的整合跟確認橫向溝通無礙是多麼困難的事情。更包括過說我們今天講的電子簽章不是只有公部門而已包括私部門甚至在未來還要到國外去然後要跟美國甚至說我們認可的國家來去做溝通。"},{"start":110.427,"end":122.238,"text":"我認為現在我們除了透過接下來審查程序我們來去完善所謂電子簽章法的內容之外我認為三讀之後如何落地實施然後把我剛剛講這一塊能夠輔導他們盡快能夠過關這才是我覺得我們應該重視的地方"},{"start":127.222,"end":154.391,"text":"有媒體報導說有人透露電子簽章執行中央部分在一年多之內可能做不太到可能明顯很勉強地做得到但是地方政府比較困難因為地方政府的縣市公所可能連專職的資訊人員都沒有恐然符合到要求那既然我們已經知道有像這樣的問題請問數位發展部的因應策略或是什麼好謝謝委員垂詢委員可能記得我們有一個發六千塊的系統"},{"start":155.111,"end":181.993,"text":"那個系統我們現在已經改成公共建設意思是說以後地方政府如果要做類似的發放的工作的話他不用從頭再去建置他直接把那一套系統拿來改個網站的門面他就可以去進行這方面的發放我舉這個例子的意思就是說我們現在定義數位的公共建設就是地方政府可以直接使用而且在上面再進行改作舉例來說像行動自然人憑證裡面簽章、驗章的那個部分"},{"start":182.373,"end":194.642,"text":"我們已經協調內政部這一部分他已經公開的可以提供出來所以地方政府如果有人所擔心的就是不一定有那麼多充足的運算他可以直接來使用我會蠻疑慮的你如果單單純純把發6000塊的系統拿來跟我們未來的電子簽章來做連結我覺得這個我覺得發6000也牽涉到非常多各自的傳說這個其實資安要求也是非常高"},{"start":205.529,"end":225.176,"text":"對的可是這跟電子簽章需要的治安完全不同level這個是我們電子簽章需要的這個治安的安全性更高高的多不跟發6000塊不太一樣6000塊我個人認為這個我一聽起來覺得說我想不只我不只我這樣認為可能在我們台下的每個委員都覺得這兩個直接拿來做比較是有點太過於籠統跟兒戲"},{"start":228.28,"end":248.426,"text":"我想並不是因為像我們光是要跟所有ATM去做借劫或者是跟郵局借劫等等他後面有非常多資安跟各自的考量不過委員剛剛的提醒是正確的我很同意就是說地方政府對於這些資安他是有責任但是他不一定有那麼多充足的人員跟經費這部分我們就會透過剛剛講公共建設的方式來幫忙他們提供"},{"start":249.36,"end":275.053,"text":"好,既然部長你剛剛也講到說必須採購設備必須補充人力那我這樣想請問一下說為了擴大我們電子簽章的適用為了加速我剛剛講各個政府機關來加速所謂的數位轉型請問114年數位部是不是有編列相關預算從軟硬兼施軟體跟硬體各方面幫助各級機關來加來編列預算加速我們電子簽章的應用"},{"start":275.553,"end":295.363,"text":"其實我們1、1、3就是今年即使還沒有散讀我們就已經編了相關的公共建設那請問大概多少那1、1、4有沒有繼續編列因為這個是要一個對他都是中長程就是4年的那我們舉例來說像幫忙地方政府做數月的核銷就是他做一些長照等等的這一部分這一部分有編列大概3、4億元那"},{"start":296.944,"end":325.346,"text":"然後在那個我們的就是數證室的部分剛剛提到6000的部分,我們也編了好幾億元。 部長,我們事實上3、4億一年給全國的、全國3、4億一年給全國來去做數、來去做這樣的這種轉型其實遠遠不夠的。其實你自己也知道每一個,我是認為3、4億全國﹖我怎麼在講的是一個全部通用的系統,並不是說他們還需要人去安裝部署,而是大家都在上面進行使用。所以關於這樣子的公共建設我們有4支,那大概每一支都是在3億人左右。"},{"start":328.014,"end":332.559,"text":"議長,我覺得我需要更完整的書面報告,不然的話我絕對書面提供給你。我們有四支類似這樣的公建計畫?一年啦一年。總共這個計畫總共幾年?"},{"start":345.07,"end":345.591,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":375.871,"end":393.151,"text":"這兩件事情我想要分開看待。我們編列到資安上的預算當然不是您剛剛講的這個電子簽章公建相關的預算。資安的預算當然是更多這第一點。那第二點就是剛才所提到說地方政府的額外需求當然我們現在包含跟內政部在收集需求之後明年還會再提額外的公共建設。"},{"start":393.82,"end":417.941,"text":"我認為部長既然我們中央機關已經普遍支持我們電子簽章的試用然後我們其實這方面來講與其說全部都慢慢弄個三年然後弄個同胞的系統倒不如說我們試著一年如果可以改變的趕快改變如果不行的我們用其他的方式用其他的方式來去做環中處理所以我在這邊部長是不是可以承諾說支持葛如鈞委員的版本"},{"start":419.482,"end":439.096,"text":"政府部門的緩衝期以一年為原則如有例外再研議以其他方式來處理呢?您剛剛所說的其他方式的意思就是說以個案來處理比如說有些比較偏遠的那個縣市公所他們如果沒辦法那麼快速的能夠符合我們的要求是不是可以說請他們用別的方法用專案來處理?"},{"start":439.676,"end":452.277,"text":"我想也可以反過來就是說如果一年就可以ready的那我們盡快提供給委員那其他的部分因為需要用法律來排除還有一個立法程序啦所以一定要一年內完成立法程序這個不一定是能夠那麼快達成"},{"start":454.622,"end":476.773,"text":"時間不夠我想特別請部長解釋一下在你的修法在你的修法裡面第15條有講到一塊好像是有關有關滿足安全性的規範安全還是一樣的對安全性的規範需求不過後來那邊又加一個好像是所謂的技術對接技術對接還有另外一個跨國安全"},{"start":477.153,"end":482.7,"text":"本來是安全要相同以及跨國互惠就是要簽個條約嘛。這兩個都有。就是我們如果認對方的憑證對方政府也要認我們的憑證嘛。"},{"start":488.86,"end":515.174,"text":" ﹏所以這個就是因為我們現在在條約簽訂上面並沒有那麼容易所以我們現在是說跨國互惠是一種但是技術對接也是另外一種技術對接就可以避免掉很多條約法律跟政治相關的問題那既然既然有關治安的話那我想請問一下我們如何我們如何保證說我們未來這個電子簽章的這個應用程式跟系統這部分我們是不是會後用書面提供我們有準備書面好我也想知道說你們是怎麼樣審核怎麼樣核定這方面的安全性好謝謝"}]}}}}