{"id":150108,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150108","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192e0c85a70a10b903b1a6f552d80ae54d4f8ba9b0039caa7a648d4f4d23457bc715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"10:18:47 - 10:26:36","影片長度":"00:07:49","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「電子簽章法修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「電子簽章法修正草案」案。\n【第一案如經院會復議，則不予審查。】\n【本日僅進行詢答】\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-4"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":469,"end_time":"2024-03-20T10:26:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T10:18:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時18分）謝謝主席。有請唐部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長早安。部長，今天討論電子簽章法，剛剛前幾位委員大致上都表達支持的態度，本席針對數發部一直提到要在年底之前審議完成，但是相關的人力部分，想要就教一下部長，未來這個案子上路之後我們的管理系統需要多少的人力才足夠？"],["唐部長鳳：這是非常好的問題，謝謝委員關心。之前因為我們還不是網路平臺業的主管機關，接下來要接下這個業務確實會有不少的工作，以我所知，目前數產署已經在規劃，會向人事行政總處提出請增人力的需求，應該可以控制在20人以內就可以完成。"],["徐委員富癸：好，但是因為目前我們看到數位部的人員缺額高達58名、將近10%，從數據上顯示，你們的流動率是不是很高還是有什麼樣的問題？"],["唐部長鳳：不是，有一些他是要從別的機關調過來，但是目前還在人事凍結期，所以在現在去做這個snapshot不一定很準，要520之後，那些人過來再重新登記一次。"],["徐委員富癸：對，因為現在大家關心數位部的部分，除了數位電子簽帳之外，還有打詐的部分，尤其打詐的人力，以我們目前掌握的狀況只有18人，看起來是讓人家很憂心，對於打詐人力的部分，我們怎麼樣來爭取相關的預算員額還有爭取相關的預算？"],["唐部長鳳：剛才有提到數產署這次的請增案，我想絕大部分就會放在包含線上網路廣告平臺以內的防詐，當然還有我們數位經濟有很多別的相關產業，像第三方支付等等，我想都可以一次來進行補充。"],["徐委員富癸：對啦！因為現在大家對數發部都很有興趣，除了你們的辦公廳舍，大家看到的都是一些比較負面的狀況，我想我們應該更積極地來跟人事總處協調，這部分有需要我們都會來協助。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝委員。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，針對人才部分，其實現在最重要的就是薪資的問題，之前考試院秘書長在詢答過程裡面，也有認同數位部約聘的薪資跟民間的落差很大，請教部長，考試院所講的落差太大，是指薪資……"],["唐部長鳳：是指資安人員他在民間能夠領的薪水，跟來我們這邊約聘之後所能夠給他的薪水，我們這邊少相當多。"],["徐委員富癸：怎麼去處理這個事情？"],["唐部長鳳：當然一部分也很謝謝考試院，就是考試院跟我們資安署有一起規劃資安的考試類科，這是已經上路的；未來再透過績效獎金、增資加給等等的方式，雖然不可能百分之百跟上業界，但是儘可能讓差距不要那麼大。"],["徐委員富癸：對啦！因為我們從104人力銀行的資料來看，目前資安工程師的平均月薪是6.2萬，薪資中位數是5.7萬，甚至公股銀行對於資安人力的薪水就開到7萬了，部長，所以我們怎麼樣能夠從這些民間機構搶到好的資安人才，你有什麼樣的看法嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝委員。一方面，當然我們透過像資安院，就是我們國家資通安全研究院，因為它是屬於行政法人，適用勞基法，所以他敘薪的range可以變成跟民間稍微比較接近，這是技術人才的部分；不過在行政人才也具有資安相關證照的部分，我們有一個策略，就是我們儘量讓體制裡面目前還不是資訊或資安相關職系的朋友們，透過取得相關的證照跟訓練來轉這個職系，目前以我所知，有上千名公務同仁對這個也都很有興趣。"],["徐委員富癸：對啦！這部分的人力可能還是要加緊腳步。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，針對抖音的部分，請教一下部長，因為現在美國要禁用抖音，國科會主委認為，數發部針對抖音管理要提出建議，但是我們又提到要交給行政院綜合考量，這部分您的看法是？"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝委員垂詢。其實美國在眾議院的這個法案，它提到一個很重要的概念，就是境外敵對勢力是不是實質控制這個危害產品？因為這個實質控制跟它註冊在哪裡不一定有絕對的關係，跟它的股東結構也不一定有絕對的關係，主要還是有沒有事證顯示、情資顯示事實上它是有實質的控制權。我們也把這個概念放在我們已經送到行政院的新版資安管理法裡面，關於危害產品的定義，我們有特別列出，境外敵對勢力就是反滲透法定義的滲透來源，有實質控制的話就算成危害產品，所以在定義上面，這一點在新的資安法裡面跟美國是類似的想法。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我們之前是不是有針對媒體回應這個部分，跟TikTok這邊的總部建立一個直接的溝通管道？"],["唐部長鳳：我們有約他來談像危害訊息等等，特別是像當時中選會關心的那一些，它必須要立刻處理。"],["徐委員富癸：因為依我們在鄉下地方看到的，確實老人家使用抖音的狀況非常非常的嚴重，甚至很多人都憂心，這真的是一個國安的問題，我們怎麼樣面對抖音的危害性？有沒有資安修法的必要性？或是部長有沒有做一個更完整的管理機制？"],["唐部長鳳：確實，我們明確定義境外敵對勢力實質控制的產品為危害產品，這就不只是針對TikTok這一家公司或TikTok這個產品，而是所有的、類似這樣子的危害產品，我們必須要有一個齊一的規範，不然的話，就是它改個名字就又上架了嘛！所以在這個情況下，有一個齊一的規範，有一個情資互相通報的方式，這才是最重要的。因為公部門有的時候使用一個產品，確實那時候還不是危害產品，但是後來透過併購、收購等等的程序，突然變成境外敵對勢力實質控制了，我們就必須要及時通知當時採購可能沒有問題，但已經使用的話就不能夠再使用了。"],["徐委員富癸：好，部長，這部分還是要請你們也要多注意。"],["唐部長鳳：是。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，針對我們AI產業的部分，因為國科會主委有提到人工智慧的草案將在年底提出，數位部在這個角色裡面，有呈現什麼樣的看法呢？"],["唐部長鳳：我們跟國科會是非常緊密的合作，我本身也是國科會的成員，之前國科會有協助行政院做一個行政部門、公務部門怎麼樣運用生成式AI的指引，裡面提到包含資安、地端部署等等，只要是牽涉到實際應用面的，我們都會去做配套的指引或者是示範，這是第一點。","第二點，AI哪一些是比較值得信任的、準確性比較沒有問題的，哪些是比較不值得信任的、可能有危害的等等，這些我們會建立一個AI的評測制度，這個也是由我們數產署來辦理，就是會有一個AI評測中心。"],["徐委員富癸：因為現在臺灣有很多的面向都需要AI的幫忙，尤其本席在屏東的選區，包含我們的遠距醫療，還有很多農業的發展，甚至養殖漁業等等，也都需要AI科技產業來加以提升，這部分也要請數位部，特別是數位產業所能夠提供相關的AI科技，讓我們的產業來做升級，然後讓我們臺灣的產業更有競爭力，這部分也要請部長多幫忙。"],["唐部長鳳：好的。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝，我的質詢到這邊。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝委員。"],["主席：徐委員發言完畢。現在請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","葛如鈞","林國成","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","廖先翔","徐富癸","林俊憲","邱若華","游顥","許智傑","蔡其昌","謝衣鳯","魯明哲","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","張啓楷","黃健豪"],"page_start":331,"meetingDate":["2024-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「電子簽章法修正草案」案；二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「電子簽\n章法修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1131601_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"150108","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150108","tool":"pyannote","id":"150108-pyannote"},"job_id":"2KnJUogTjYAy1493","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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﹏我們有一個策略就是我們盡量讓體制裡面目前還不是資訊或資安相關的直系的朋友們透過取得相關的證招跟訓練來轉這個直系喔那目前以我所知只是就是上千民工物統人對這個也都很有興趣對這部分可能人力部分還是要加緊腳步了謝謝那我另外針對抖音部分要請教一下部長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"﹏\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 226.085, \"end\": 226.245, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 226.245, \"end\": 226.325, \"score\": 0.583}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 226.325, \"end\": 226.565, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 226.565, \"end\": 226.725, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"略\", \"start\": 226.725, \"end\": 226.865, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 226.865, \"end\": 226.985, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 226.985, \"end\": 227.065, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 227.065, \"end\": 227.405, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"盡\"}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 227.405, \"end\": 228.006, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 228.006, \"end\": 228.306, 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\"end\": 466.71, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 466.71, \"end\": 466.811, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 466.811, \"end\": 466.831, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,084 --> 00:00:07,228\n謝謝主席哈。有請唐部長。請部長。\n\n2\n00:00:14,476 --> 00:00:40,717\n部長早安部長我想今天討論的電子簽章法剛剛我們前幾位委員大家大致上都表達支持的態度但是本席針對這個速報部一直提說在年底之前要審議完成但是相關的人力部分想要就教一下部長那未來這個案子上路之後我們對於這個管理系統需要多少的人力才足夠\n\n3\n00:00:41,785 --> 00:01:00,894\n這非常好的問題,謝謝委員關心。我們確實就是之前因為還不是網路廣告平台業的主管機關那接下來接下這個確實是會有不少的工作那以我所知目前速傳署已經在規劃會向人事行政總署提出請增人力的這個需求目前應該是可以控制在20人以內就可以把它完成\n\n4\n00:01:02,078 --> 00:01:24,088\n但是因為目前我們看到蘇衛部的人員缺額有高達58名將近10%那從這個數據上顯示我們的流動率是不是很高還是有什麼樣的問題不是有一些他是從別的機關要調過來但目前還在人事凍結期所以在現在去做這個snapshot不一定很準要520之後那些人過來再重新登記一次\n\n5\n00:01:25,015 --> 00:01:52,430\n對,因為現在大家對關心數位部的部分除了這個電子簽章之外還有打詐的部分那尤其打詐的人力以我們目前掌握的狀況只有18人那看起來是讓人家很憂心那對於這個打詐的部分的人力的部分我們怎麼樣來爭取相關的預算還是爭取相關的預算剛才有提到就數傳署這一次的請證案裡面我想絕大部分就會放在包含線上網路廣告平台以內\n\n6\n00:01:53,030 --> 00:01:54,491\n徐富癸徐富癸徐富\n\n7\n00:02:18,107 --> 00:02:42,527\n另外針對人才部分其實現在最重要的就是薪資的問題之前考試院的秘書長在詢答過程裡面你有認同我們數位部的約聘的薪資跟民間的落差很大請教部長考試院所講的落差太大是指特別資安人員他在民間能夠領的薪水跟我們來這邊之後約聘所能夠給他的薪水我們這邊少相當多\n\n8\n00:02:43,337 --> 00:03:05,382\n對那怎麼去處理這個事情當然一部分考試院也很謝謝就是考試院跟我們資安署有來一起規劃資安的考試的類科那這個是已經上路的那未來再通過這個績效獎金啊增資加級啊等等的這些方式去盡可能的讓他雖然不可能說百分之百跟上業界但至少那個差距不要那麼大\n\n9\n00:03:06,428 --> 00:03:21,568\n對啦因為我們從104人力銀行的資料來看目前資安工程師的平均月薪是6.2萬那薪資中位數是5.7萬甚至公股銀行對於資安人力的薪水就開到7萬了啦那所以\n\n10\n00:03:22,489 --> 00:03:45,725\n部長,我們怎麼樣從這些民間機構能夠搶到好的資安人才?你有什麼樣的看法嗎?謝謝委員一方面當然我們透過像資安院就是我們國家資產安全研究院那他因為是屬於行政法人是用牢籍法所以他的虛心的range可以變成跟民間稍微比較接近那這是技術人才的部分不過在行政人才也具有資安相關的證照部分\n\n11\n00:03:46,085 --> 00:04:06,911\n﹏我們有一個策略就是我們盡量讓體制裡面目前還不是資訊或資安相關的直系的朋友們透過取得相關的證招跟訓練來轉這個直系喔那目前以我所知只是就是上千民工物統人對這個也都很有興趣對這部分可能人力部分還是要加緊腳步了謝謝那我另外針對抖音部分要請教一下部長\n\n12\n00:04:07,651 --> 00:04:30,308\n因為先美國要禁用抖音那國科會的主委認為訴法部要針對抖音管理要提出建議但是我們又有提到說要交給行政院綜合考量那這部分您的看法是?其實美國在眾議院的這個法案他提到了很重要的概念就是說境外敵對勢力是不是實質控制這個危害產品\n\n13\n00:04:30,928 --> 00:04:48,375\n因為這個實質控制跟他註冊在哪裡不一定有絕對的關係跟他的股東結構也不一定有絕對的關係主要還是有沒有市政來顯示說就是這個情資顯示說他事實上是有實質的控制權那我們也把這個概念放在我們新版的已經送到行政院的資安管理法裡面\n\n14\n00:04:49,135 --> 00:05:15,541\n關於危害產品的定義這邊我們有特別列出說境外敵對勢力就是反滲透法定義的這個滲透來源有實質控制的話就算成危害產品所以在定義上面這一點在新的資安法裡面跟美國是類似的想法。部長那我們之前是不是有針對媒體回應這部分跟TikTok這邊的總部建立直接的一個溝通管道?我們有約他來說像危害訊息特別像當時中選會關心的那一些對他必須要立刻處理。\n\n15\n00:05:16,109 --> 00:05:42,544\n因為我們在鄉下地方看到確實老人家使用抖音的狀況非常非常的嚴重甚至很多人憂心這是真的是一個國安的問題那我們怎麼樣面對這樣的一個資安在這個抖音的一個危害性的部分有沒有什麼樣的一個資安修法的一個必要性或是部長有沒有做一個更完整的一個管理的一個機制\n\n16\n00:05:43,744 --> 00:06:10,214\n確實我想我們明確定義這個境外敵對實力實質控制產品為危害產品這個就是不是只是針對TikTok這一家公司或這個TikTok這個產品而是說所有的類似這樣子的危害產品我們必須要有一個歧義的規範不然的話就是他改個名字就又上架了嘛所以在這個情況下有一個歧義的規範有一個情資互相通報的這個方式這個是最重要因為公部門是有的時候他使用一個產品確實那時候還不是危害產品\n\n17\n00:06:10,894 --> 00:06:21,182\n但是後來透過併購啊收購啊等等的程序他突然變成境外敵對勢力實質控制了那我們就必須要及時通知到當時採購可能沒有問題但使用就不能夠再使用了\n\n18\n00:06:22,227 --> 00:06:25,229\n國科會主委提到人工智慧草案在明天提出。數位部在這個角色裡面有什麼呈現、什麼樣的看法?\n\n19\n00:06:41,022 --> 00:06:55,479\n是。我想我們跟國科會是非常緊密合作。我本身也是國科會的成員。那之前國科會有協助行政院做一個行政部門、公部門怎麼樣運用生成式AI的一個指引。裡面提到包含資安、這個地端部署等等。\n\n20\n00:06:55,939 --> 00:07:14,131\n只要是牽涉到這些實際應用面的那我們都會去做這個配套的指引或者是示範這第一點那第二點就是AI哪一些是比較值得信任的準確性比較沒有問題的哪一些是比較不值得信任的那可能有危害的等等這個我們會建立一個AI的評測制度那這個也是在我們數傳數來辦理有個AI評測中心\n\n21\n00:07:16,830 --> 00:07:38,444\n因為我們現在台灣有很多的面相都需要AI的幫忙那尤其本期我們在屏東的選區齁包含我們的遠距醫療還有很多農業的發展甚至養殖醫院都為了都需要AI科技產業來做一個提升那這部分也要請數位部特別是數位產業署能夠提供相關的AI科技來讓我們的產業來做升級然後讓我們的台灣齁這個產業更有競爭力那這部分要請部長這邊也要多幫忙啦好的\n\n22\n00:07:45,888 --> 00:07:46,831\n好,那謝謝我的資訊到這邊。好,謝謝委員。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6084\t7228\t謝謝主席哈。有請唐部長。請部長。\n14476\t40717\t部長早安部長我想今天討論的電子簽章法剛剛我們前幾位委員大家大致上都表達支持的態度但是本席針對這個速報部一直提說在年底之前要審議完成但是相關的人力部分想要就教一下部長那未來這個案子上路之後我們對於這個管理系統需要多少的人力才足夠\n41785\t60894\t這非常好的問題,謝謝委員關心。我們確實就是之前因為還不是網路廣告平台業的主管機關那接下來接下這個確實是會有不少的工作那以我所知目前速傳署已經在規劃會向人事行政總署提出請增人力的這個需求目前應該是可以控制在20人以內就可以把它完成\n62078\t84088\t但是因為目前我們看到蘇衛部的人員缺額有高達58名將近10%那從這個數據上顯示我們的流動率是不是很高還是有什麼樣的問題不是有一些他是從別的機關要調過來但目前還在人事凍結期所以在現在去做這個snapshot不一定很準要520之後那些人過來再重新登記一次\n85015\t112430\t對,因為現在大家對關心數位部的部分除了這個電子簽章之外還有打詐的部分那尤其打詐的人力以我們目前掌握的狀況只有18人那看起來是讓人家很憂心那對於這個打詐的部分的人力的部分我們怎麼樣來爭取相關的預算還是爭取相關的預算剛才有提到就數傳署這一次的請證案裡面我想絕大部分就會放在包含線上網路廣告平台以內\n113030\t114491\t徐富癸徐富癸徐富\n138107\t162527\t另外針對人才部分其實現在最重要的就是薪資的問題之前考試院的秘書長在詢答過程裡面你有認同我們數位部的約聘的薪資跟民間的落差很大請教部長考試院所講的落差太大是指特別資安人員他在民間能夠領的薪水跟我們來這邊之後約聘所能夠給他的薪水我們這邊少相當多\n163337\t185382\t對那怎麼去處理這個事情當然一部分考試院也很謝謝就是考試院跟我們資安署有來一起規劃資安的考試的類科那這個是已經上路的那未來再通過這個績效獎金啊增資加級啊等等的這些方式去盡可能的讓他雖然不可能說百分之百跟上業界但至少那個差距不要那麼大\n186428\t201568\t對啦因為我們從104人力銀行的資料來看目前資安工程師的平均月薪是6.2萬那薪資中位數是5.7萬甚至公股銀行對於資安人力的薪水就開到7萬了啦那所以\n202489\t225725\t部長,我們怎麼樣從這些民間機構能夠搶到好的資安人才?你有什麼樣的看法嗎?謝謝委員一方面當然我們透過像資安院就是我們國家資產安全研究院那他因為是屬於行政法人是用牢籍法所以他的虛心的range可以變成跟民間稍微比較接近那這是技術人才的部分不過在行政人才也具有資安相關的證照部分\n226085\t246911\t﹏我們有一個策略就是我們盡量讓體制裡面目前還不是資訊或資安相關的直系的朋友們透過取得相關的證招跟訓練來轉這個直系喔那目前以我所知只是就是上千民工物統人對這個也都很有興趣對這部分可能人力部分還是要加緊腳步了謝謝那我另外針對抖音部分要請教一下部長\n247651\t270308\t因為先美國要禁用抖音那國科會的主委認為訴法部要針對抖音管理要提出建議但是我們又有提到說要交給行政院綜合考量那這部分您的看法是?其實美國在眾議院的這個法案他提到了很重要的概念就是說境外敵對勢力是不是實質控制這個危害產品\n270928\t288375\t因為這個實質控制跟他註冊在哪裡不一定有絕對的關係跟他的股東結構也不一定有絕對的關係主要還是有沒有市政來顯示說就是這個情資顯示說他事實上是有實質的控制權那我們也把這個概念放在我們新版的已經送到行政院的資安管理法裡面\n289135\t315541\t關於危害產品的定義這邊我們有特別列出說境外敵對勢力就是反滲透法定義的這個滲透來源有實質控制的話就算成危害產品所以在定義上面這一點在新的資安法裡面跟美國是類似的想法。部長那我們之前是不是有針對媒體回應這部分跟TikTok這邊的總部建立直接的一個溝通管道?我們有約他來說像危害訊息特別像當時中選會關心的那一些對他必須要立刻處理。\n316109\t342544\t因為我們在鄉下地方看到確實老人家使用抖音的狀況非常非常的嚴重甚至很多人憂心這是真的是一個國安的問題那我們怎麼樣面對這樣的一個資安在這個抖音的一個危害性的部分有沒有什麼樣的一個資安修法的一個必要性或是部長有沒有做一個更完整的一個管理的一個機制\n343744\t370214\t確實我想我們明確定義這個境外敵對實力實質控制產品為危害產品這個就是不是只是針對TikTok這一家公司或這個TikTok這個產品而是說所有的類似這樣子的危害產品我們必須要有一個歧義的規範不然的話就是他改個名字就又上架了嘛所以在這個情況下有一個歧義的規範有一個情資互相通報的這個方式這個是最重要因為公部門是有的時候他使用一個產品確實那時候還不是危害產品\n370894\t381182\t但是後來透過併購啊收購啊等等的程序他突然變成境外敵對勢力實質控制了那我們就必須要及時通知到當時採購可能沒有問題但使用就不能夠再使用了\n382227\t385229\t國科會主委提到人工智慧草案在明天提出。數位部在這個角色裡面有什麼呈現、什麼樣的看法?\n401022\t415479\t是。我想我們跟國科會是非常緊密合作。我本身也是國科會的成員。那之前國科會有協助行政院做一個行政部門、公部門怎麼樣運用生成式AI的一個指引。裡面提到包含資安、這個地端部署等等。\n415939\t434131\t只要是牽涉到這些實際應用面的那我們都會去做這個配套的指引或者是示範這第一點那第二點就是AI哪一些是比較值得信任的準確性比較沒有問題的哪一些是比較不值得信任的那可能有危害的等等這個我們會建立一個AI的評測制度那這個也是在我們數傳數來辦理有個AI評測中心\n436830\t458444\t因為我們現在台灣有很多的面相都需要AI的幫忙那尤其本期我們在屏東的選區齁包含我們的遠距醫療還有很多農業的發展甚至養殖醫院都為了都需要AI科技產業來做一個提升那這部分也要請數位部特別是數位產業署能夠提供相關的AI科技來讓我們的產業來做升級然後讓我們的台灣齁這個產業更有競爭力那這部分要請部長這邊也要多幫忙啦好的\n465888\t466831\t好,那謝謝我的資訊到這邊。好,謝謝委員。\n","txt":"謝謝主席哈。有請唐部長。請部長。\n部長早安部長我想今天討論的電子簽章法剛剛我們前幾位委員大家大致上都表達支持的態度但是本席針對這個速報部一直提說在年底之前要審議完成但是相關的人力部分想要就教一下部長那未來這個案子上路之後我們對於這個管理系統需要多少的人力才足夠\n這非常好的問題,謝謝委員關心。我們確實就是之前因為還不是網路廣告平台業的主管機關那接下來接下這個確實是會有不少的工作那以我所知目前速傳署已經在規劃會向人事行政總署提出請增人力的這個需求目前應該是可以控制在20人以內就可以把它完成\n但是因為目前我們看到蘇衛部的人員缺額有高達58名將近10%那從這個數據上顯示我們的流動率是不是很高還是有什麼樣的問題不是有一些他是從別的機關要調過來但目前還在人事凍結期所以在現在去做這個snapshot不一定很準要520之後那些人過來再重新登記一次\n對,因為現在大家對關心數位部的部分除了這個電子簽章之外還有打詐的部分那尤其打詐的人力以我們目前掌握的狀況只有18人那看起來是讓人家很憂心那對於這個打詐的部分的人力的部分我們怎麼樣來爭取相關的預算還是爭取相關的預算剛才有提到就數傳署這一次的請證案裡面我想絕大部分就會放在包含線上網路廣告平台以內\n徐富癸徐富癸徐富\n另外針對人才部分其實現在最重要的就是薪資的問題之前考試院的秘書長在詢答過程裡面你有認同我們數位部的約聘的薪資跟民間的落差很大請教部長考試院所講的落差太大是指特別資安人員他在民間能夠領的薪水跟我們來這邊之後約聘所能夠給他的薪水我們這邊少相當多\n對那怎麼去處理這個事情當然一部分考試院也很謝謝就是考試院跟我們資安署有來一起規劃資安的考試的類科那這個是已經上路的那未來再通過這個績效獎金啊增資加級啊等等的這些方式去盡可能的讓他雖然不可能說百分之百跟上業界但至少那個差距不要那麼大\n對啦因為我們從104人力銀行的資料來看目前資安工程師的平均月薪是6.2萬那薪資中位數是5.7萬甚至公股銀行對於資安人力的薪水就開到7萬了啦那所以\n部長,我們怎麼樣從這些民間機構能夠搶到好的資安人才?你有什麼樣的看法嗎?謝謝委員一方面當然我們透過像資安院就是我們國家資產安全研究院那他因為是屬於行政法人是用牢籍法所以他的虛心的range可以變成跟民間稍微比較接近那這是技術人才的部分不過在行政人才也具有資安相關的證照部分\n﹏我們有一個策略就是我們盡量讓體制裡面目前還不是資訊或資安相關的直系的朋友們透過取得相關的證招跟訓練來轉這個直系喔那目前以我所知只是就是上千民工物統人對這個也都很有興趣對這部分可能人力部分還是要加緊腳步了謝謝那我另外針對抖音部分要請教一下部長\n因為先美國要禁用抖音那國科會的主委認為訴法部要針對抖音管理要提出建議但是我們又有提到說要交給行政院綜合考量那這部分您的看法是?其實美國在眾議院的這個法案他提到了很重要的概念就是說境外敵對勢力是不是實質控制這個危害產品\n因為這個實質控制跟他註冊在哪裡不一定有絕對的關係跟他的股東結構也不一定有絕對的關係主要還是有沒有市政來顯示說就是這個情資顯示說他事實上是有實質的控制權那我們也把這個概念放在我們新版的已經送到行政院的資安管理法裡面\n關於危害產品的定義這邊我們有特別列出說境外敵對勢力就是反滲透法定義的這個滲透來源有實質控制的話就算成危害產品所以在定義上面這一點在新的資安法裡面跟美國是類似的想法。部長那我們之前是不是有針對媒體回應這部分跟TikTok這邊的總部建立直接的一個溝通管道?我們有約他來說像危害訊息特別像當時中選會關心的那一些對他必須要立刻處理。\n因為我們在鄉下地方看到確實老人家使用抖音的狀況非常非常的嚴重甚至很多人憂心這是真的是一個國安的問題那我們怎麼樣面對這樣的一個資安在這個抖音的一個危害性的部分有沒有什麼樣的一個資安修法的一個必要性或是部長有沒有做一個更完整的一個管理的一個機制\n確實我想我們明確定義這個境外敵對實力實質控制產品為危害產品這個就是不是只是針對TikTok這一家公司或這個TikTok這個產品而是說所有的類似這樣子的危害產品我們必須要有一個歧義的規範不然的話就是他改個名字就又上架了嘛所以在這個情況下有一個歧義的規範有一個情資互相通報的這個方式這個是最重要因為公部門是有的時候他使用一個產品確實那時候還不是危害產品\n但是後來透過併購啊收購啊等等的程序他突然變成境外敵對勢力實質控制了那我們就必須要及時通知到當時採購可能沒有問題但使用就不能夠再使用了\n國科會主委提到人工智慧草案在明天提出。數位部在這個角色裡面有什麼呈現、什麼樣的看法?\n是。我想我們跟國科會是非常緊密合作。我本身也是國科會的成員。那之前國科會有協助行政院做一個行政部門、公部門怎麼樣運用生成式AI的一個指引。裡面提到包含資安、這個地端部署等等。\n只要是牽涉到這些實際應用面的那我們都會去做這個配套的指引或者是示範這第一點那第二點就是AI哪一些是比較值得信任的準確性比較沒有問題的哪一些是比較不值得信任的那可能有危害的等等這個我們會建立一個AI的評測制度那這個也是在我們數傳數來辦理有個AI評測中心\n因為我們現在台灣有很多的面相都需要AI的幫忙那尤其本期我們在屏東的選區齁包含我們的遠距醫療還有很多農業的發展甚至養殖醫院都為了都需要AI科技產業來做一個提升那這部分也要請數位部特別是數位產業署能夠提供相關的AI科技來讓我們的產業來做升級然後讓我們的台灣齁這個產業更有競爭力那這部分要請部長這邊也要多幫忙啦好的\n好,那謝謝我的資訊到這邊。好,謝謝委員。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.084 --> 00:07.228\n謝謝主席哈。有請唐部長。請部長。\n\n00:14.476 --> 00:40.717\n部長早安部長我想今天討論的電子簽章法剛剛我們前幾位委員大家大致上都表達支持的態度但是本席針對這個速報部一直提說在年底之前要審議完成但是相關的人力部分想要就教一下部長那未來這個案子上路之後我們對於這個管理系統需要多少的人力才足夠\n\n00:41.785 --> 01:00.894\n這非常好的問題,謝謝委員關心。我們確實就是之前因為還不是網路廣告平台業的主管機關那接下來接下這個確實是會有不少的工作那以我所知目前速傳署已經在規劃會向人事行政總署提出請增人力的這個需求目前應該是可以控制在20人以內就可以把它完成\n\n01:02.078 --> 01:24.088\n但是因為目前我們看到蘇衛部的人員缺額有高達58名將近10%那從這個數據上顯示我們的流動率是不是很高還是有什麼樣的問題不是有一些他是從別的機關要調過來但目前還在人事凍結期所以在現在去做這個snapshot不一定很準要520之後那些人過來再重新登記一次\n\n01:25.015 --> 01:52.430\n對,因為現在大家對關心數位部的部分除了這個電子簽章之外還有打詐的部分那尤其打詐的人力以我們目前掌握的狀況只有18人那看起來是讓人家很憂心那對於這個打詐的部分的人力的部分我們怎麼樣來爭取相關的預算還是爭取相關的預算剛才有提到就數傳署這一次的請證案裡面我想絕大部分就會放在包含線上網路廣告平台以內\n\n01:53.030 --> 01:54.491\n徐富癸徐富癸徐富\n\n02:18.107 --> 02:42.527\n另外針對人才部分其實現在最重要的就是薪資的問題之前考試院的秘書長在詢答過程裡面你有認同我們數位部的約聘的薪資跟民間的落差很大請教部長考試院所講的落差太大是指特別資安人員他在民間能夠領的薪水跟我們來這邊之後約聘所能夠給他的薪水我們這邊少相當多\n\n02:43.337 --> 03:05.382\n對那怎麼去處理這個事情當然一部分考試院也很謝謝就是考試院跟我們資安署有來一起規劃資安的考試的類科那這個是已經上路的那未來再通過這個績效獎金啊增資加級啊等等的這些方式去盡可能的讓他雖然不可能說百分之百跟上業界但至少那個差距不要那麼大\n\n03:06.428 --> 03:21.568\n對啦因為我們從104人力銀行的資料來看目前資安工程師的平均月薪是6.2萬那薪資中位數是5.7萬甚至公股銀行對於資安人力的薪水就開到7萬了啦那所以\n\n03:22.489 --> 03:45.725\n部長,我們怎麼樣從這些民間機構能夠搶到好的資安人才?你有什麼樣的看法嗎?謝謝委員一方面當然我們透過像資安院就是我們國家資產安全研究院那他因為是屬於行政法人是用牢籍法所以他的虛心的range可以變成跟民間稍微比較接近那這是技術人才的部分不過在行政人才也具有資安相關的證照部分\n\n03:46.085 --> 04:06.911\n﹏我們有一個策略就是我們盡量讓體制裡面目前還不是資訊或資安相關的直系的朋友們透過取得相關的證招跟訓練來轉這個直系喔那目前以我所知只是就是上千民工物統人對這個也都很有興趣對這部分可能人力部分還是要加緊腳步了謝謝那我另外針對抖音部分要請教一下部長\n\n04:07.651 --> 04:30.308\n因為先美國要禁用抖音那國科會的主委認為訴法部要針對抖音管理要提出建議但是我們又有提到說要交給行政院綜合考量那這部分您的看法是?其實美國在眾議院的這個法案他提到了很重要的概念就是說境外敵對勢力是不是實質控制這個危害產品\n\n04:30.928 --> 04:48.375\n因為這個實質控制跟他註冊在哪裡不一定有絕對的關係跟他的股東結構也不一定有絕對的關係主要還是有沒有市政來顯示說就是這個情資顯示說他事實上是有實質的控制權那我們也把這個概念放在我們新版的已經送到行政院的資安管理法裡面\n\n04:49.135 --> 05:15.541\n關於危害產品的定義這邊我們有特別列出說境外敵對勢力就是反滲透法定義的這個滲透來源有實質控制的話就算成危害產品所以在定義上面這一點在新的資安法裡面跟美國是類似的想法。部長那我們之前是不是有針對媒體回應這部分跟TikTok這邊的總部建立直接的一個溝通管道?我們有約他來說像危害訊息特別像當時中選會關心的那一些對他必須要立刻處理。\n\n05:16.109 --> 05:42.544\n因為我們在鄉下地方看到確實老人家使用抖音的狀況非常非常的嚴重甚至很多人憂心這是真的是一個國安的問題那我們怎麼樣面對這樣的一個資安在這個抖音的一個危害性的部分有沒有什麼樣的一個資安修法的一個必要性或是部長有沒有做一個更完整的一個管理的一個機制\n\n05:43.744 --> 06:10.214\n確實我想我們明確定義這個境外敵對實力實質控制產品為危害產品這個就是不是只是針對TikTok這一家公司或這個TikTok這個產品而是說所有的類似這樣子的危害產品我們必須要有一個歧義的規範不然的話就是他改個名字就又上架了嘛所以在這個情況下有一個歧義的規範有一個情資互相通報的這個方式這個是最重要因為公部門是有的時候他使用一個產品確實那時候還不是危害產品\n\n06:10.894 --> 06:21.182\n但是後來透過併購啊收購啊等等的程序他突然變成境外敵對勢力實質控制了那我們就必須要及時通知到當時採購可能沒有問題但使用就不能夠再使用了\n\n06:22.227 --> 06:25.229\n國科會主委提到人工智慧草案在明天提出。數位部在這個角色裡面有什麼呈現、什麼樣的看法?\n\n06:41.022 --> 06:55.479\n是。我想我們跟國科會是非常緊密合作。我本身也是國科會的成員。那之前國科會有協助行政院做一個行政部門、公部門怎麼樣運用生成式AI的一個指引。裡面提到包含資安、這個地端部署等等。\n\n06:55.939 --> 07:14.131\n只要是牽涉到這些實際應用面的那我們都會去做這個配套的指引或者是示範這第一點那第二點就是AI哪一些是比較值得信任的準確性比較沒有問題的哪一些是比較不值得信任的那可能有危害的等等這個我們會建立一個AI的評測制度那這個也是在我們數傳數來辦理有個AI評測中心\n\n07:16.830 --> 07:38.444\n因為我們現在台灣有很多的面相都需要AI的幫忙那尤其本期我們在屏東的選區齁包含我們的遠距醫療還有很多農業的發展甚至養殖醫院都為了都需要AI科技產業來做一個提升那這部分也要請數位部特別是數位產業署能夠提供相關的AI科技來讓我們的產業來做升級然後讓我們的台灣齁這個產業更有競爭力那這部分要請部長這邊也要多幫忙啦好的\n\n07:45.888 --> 07:46.831\n好,那謝謝我的資訊到這邊。好,謝謝委員。\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.084,"end":7.228,"text":"謝謝主席哈。有請唐部長。請部長。"},{"start":14.476,"end":40.717,"text":"部長早安部長我想今天討論的電子簽章法剛剛我們前幾位委員大家大致上都表達支持的態度但是本席針對這個速報部一直提說在年底之前要審議完成但是相關的人力部分想要就教一下部長那未來這個案子上路之後我們對於這個管理系統需要多少的人力才足夠"},{"start":41.785,"end":60.894,"text":"這非常好的問題,謝謝委員關心。我們確實就是之前因為還不是網路廣告平台業的主管機關那接下來接下這個確實是會有不少的工作那以我所知目前速傳署已經在規劃會向人事行政總署提出請增人力的這個需求目前應該是可以控制在20人以內就可以把它完成"},{"start":62.078,"end":84.088,"text":"但是因為目前我們看到蘇衛部的人員缺額有高達58名將近10%那從這個數據上顯示我們的流動率是不是很高還是有什麼樣的問題不是有一些他是從別的機關要調過來但目前還在人事凍結期所以在現在去做這個snapshot不一定很準要520之後那些人過來再重新登記一次"},{"start":85.015,"end":112.43,"text":"對,因為現在大家對關心數位部的部分除了這個電子簽章之外還有打詐的部分那尤其打詐的人力以我們目前掌握的狀況只有18人那看起來是讓人家很憂心那對於這個打詐的部分的人力的部分我們怎麼樣來爭取相關的預算還是爭取相關的預算剛才有提到就數傳署這一次的請證案裡面我想絕大部分就會放在包含線上網路廣告平台以內"},{"start":113.03,"end":114.491,"text":"徐富癸徐富癸徐富"},{"start":138.107,"end":162.527,"text":"另外針對人才部分其實現在最重要的就是薪資的問題之前考試院的秘書長在詢答過程裡面你有認同我們數位部的約聘的薪資跟民間的落差很大請教部長考試院所講的落差太大是指特別資安人員他在民間能夠領的薪水跟我們來這邊之後約聘所能夠給他的薪水我們這邊少相當多"},{"start":163.337,"end":185.382,"text":"對那怎麼去處理這個事情當然一部分考試院也很謝謝就是考試院跟我們資安署有來一起規劃資安的考試的類科那這個是已經上路的那未來再通過這個績效獎金啊增資加級啊等等的這些方式去盡可能的讓他雖然不可能說百分之百跟上業界但至少那個差距不要那麼大"},{"start":186.428,"end":201.568,"text":"對啦因為我們從104人力銀行的資料來看目前資安工程師的平均月薪是6.2萬那薪資中位數是5.7萬甚至公股銀行對於資安人力的薪水就開到7萬了啦那所以"},{"start":202.489,"end":225.725,"text":"部長,我們怎麼樣從這些民間機構能夠搶到好的資安人才?你有什麼樣的看法嗎?謝謝委員一方面當然我們透過像資安院就是我們國家資產安全研究院那他因為是屬於行政法人是用牢籍法所以他的虛心的range可以變成跟民間稍微比較接近那這是技術人才的部分不過在行政人才也具有資安相關的證照部分"},{"start":226.085,"end":246.911,"text":" ﹏我們有一個策略就是我們盡量讓體制裡面目前還不是資訊或資安相關的直系的朋友們透過取得相關的證招跟訓練來轉這個直系喔那目前以我所知只是就是上千民工物統人對這個也都很有興趣對這部分可能人力部分還是要加緊腳步了謝謝那我另外針對抖音部分要請教一下部長"},{"start":247.651,"end":270.308,"text":"因為先美國要禁用抖音那國科會的主委認為訴法部要針對抖音管理要提出建議但是我們又有提到說要交給行政院綜合考量那這部分您的看法是?其實美國在眾議院的這個法案他提到了很重要的概念就是說境外敵對勢力是不是實質控制這個危害產品"},{"start":270.928,"end":288.375,"text":"因為這個實質控制跟他註冊在哪裡不一定有絕對的關係跟他的股東結構也不一定有絕對的關係主要還是有沒有市政來顯示說就是這個情資顯示說他事實上是有實質的控制權那我們也把這個概念放在我們新版的已經送到行政院的資安管理法裡面"},{"start":289.135,"end":315.541,"text":"關於危害產品的定義這邊我們有特別列出說境外敵對勢力就是反滲透法定義的這個滲透來源有實質控制的話就算成危害產品所以在定義上面這一點在新的資安法裡面跟美國是類似的想法。部長那我們之前是不是有針對媒體回應這部分跟TikTok這邊的總部建立直接的一個溝通管道?我們有約他來說像危害訊息特別像當時中選會關心的那一些對他必須要立刻處理。"},{"start":316.109,"end":342.544,"text":"因為我們在鄉下地方看到確實老人家使用抖音的狀況非常非常的嚴重甚至很多人憂心這是真的是一個國安的問題那我們怎麼樣面對這樣的一個資安在這個抖音的一個危害性的部分有沒有什麼樣的一個資安修法的一個必要性或是部長有沒有做一個更完整的一個管理的一個機制"},{"start":343.744,"end":370.214,"text":"確實我想我們明確定義這個境外敵對實力實質控制產品為危害產品這個就是不是只是針對TikTok這一家公司或這個TikTok這個產品而是說所有的類似這樣子的危害產品我們必須要有一個歧義的規範不然的話就是他改個名字就又上架了嘛所以在這個情況下有一個歧義的規範有一個情資互相通報的這個方式這個是最重要因為公部門是有的時候他使用一個產品確實那時候還不是危害產品"},{"start":370.894,"end":381.182,"text":"但是後來透過併購啊收購啊等等的程序他突然變成境外敵對勢力實質控制了那我們就必須要及時通知到當時採購可能沒有問題但使用就不能夠再使用了"},{"start":382.227,"end":385.229,"text":"國科會主委提到人工智慧草案在明天提出。數位部在這個角色裡面有什麼呈現、什麼樣的看法?"},{"start":401.022,"end":415.479,"text":"是。我想我們跟國科會是非常緊密合作。我本身也是國科會的成員。那之前國科會有協助行政院做一個行政部門、公部門怎麼樣運用生成式AI的一個指引。裡面提到包含資安、這個地端部署等等。"},{"start":415.939,"end":434.131,"text":"只要是牽涉到這些實際應用面的那我們都會去做這個配套的指引或者是示範這第一點那第二點就是AI哪一些是比較值得信任的準確性比較沒有問題的哪一些是比較不值得信任的那可能有危害的等等這個我們會建立一個AI的評測制度那這個也是在我們數傳數來辦理有個AI評測中心"},{"start":436.83,"end":458.444,"text":"因為我們現在台灣有很多的面相都需要AI的幫忙那尤其本期我們在屏東的選區齁包含我們的遠距醫療還有很多農業的發展甚至養殖醫院都為了都需要AI科技產業來做一個提升那這部分也要請數位部特別是數位產業署能夠提供相關的AI科技來讓我們的產業來做升級然後讓我們的台灣齁這個產業更有競爭力那這部分要請部長這邊也要多幫忙啦好的"},{"start":465.888,"end":466.831,"text":"好,那謝謝我的資訊到這邊。好,謝謝委員。"}]}}}}