{"id":150111,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150111","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192c3253cff5b748df5753301a1aac7f2e9f8ba9b0039caa7a6074e07e10f7c46125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:24:11 - 09:34:00","影片長度":"00:09:49","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就「國土計畫推動辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":589,"end_time":"2024-03-20T09:34:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T09:24:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":146,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時24分）我請部長跟署長。"],["主席：好，請部長跟署長備詢，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，其實我們今天所說的國土計畫法是不是也等於現有的國家公園計畫及都市計畫的上位計畫？"],["林部長右昌：應該是這樣子說，就是國土計畫最主要在處理過去所謂的區域計畫法所規範的範圍，也就是過去所謂的非都這些地區。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！"],["林部長右昌：它會涵蓋過去區域計畫法所涵蓋的這個部分。"],["張委員宏陸：它等於是它的上位計畫，它等於是全國性的位階了，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["張委員宏陸：那大家就很關心啦！我現在聽到最多的擔心就是我以後的農地就永遠農用，好像以後農地的價值就降低，是不是很多人擔心這個？"],["林部長右昌：國土計畫法其實最重要的精神就是國土合理的使用，所以過去我們在非都這些區域，其實幾十年下來有很多存在的問題，這次也一併透過國土計畫法把它做一個處理跟解決。剛剛委員關心的就是民眾會覺得好像是不是劃了什麼區之後就沒有辦法做這個使用？其實不會有這個問題，因為新舊制會接軌，也就是說過去比如它是原本非都這些區域的使用，在新的國土計畫法裡面也會做相關的附註或者是加註，所以這一部分其實不需要擔心。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！但是我們要講，不然很多人就擔心，這是一個。另外一個，各縣市的進度是如何？據我手頭上的資料知道，好像只有三個縣市有報上來。"],["林部長右昌：是，各縣市的狀況不一，為什麼？因為縣市有大小，然後縣市也有不同的狀況跟複雜的難度，目前送到部裡面有連江、金門跟花蓮縣，其他等他們審完之後會陸陸續續送到部裡面來進行審議。"],["張委員宏陸：就是因為它的複雜度跟地方的聲音多，縣市其實要整合也不容易啦！然後要去做也不容易啦！所以他們目前是因為這個原因，才沒辦法很快速地送上來吧？"],["林部長右昌：是，因為不同的縣市有不同的狀況，比如像新北市，新北市幅員很廣大，所以當然它的複雜度也增加，其他所謂農業縣的部分也有類似的狀況。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！既然國土計畫法是一個上位法，其實我覺得這一次有一個問題，我們雖然是這樣，但各縣市還是本於它的轄區去規劃然後去做，其實沒有整個通盤考量臺灣的整體發展，對不對？我舉個很簡單的例子，我們新北跟以前的基隆，其實有很多新北的生活圈是在基隆，這次的國土規劃、國土計畫其實沒有從一個更高的、全國的角度去看，各縣市還是以本位主義去處理。其實這裡就會有一個盲點了，新的生活區域等到底是不是符合未來臺灣的發展？還是本於縣市直接去處理？這樣子是一個很大的盲點，我不知道部長的看法如何？"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝。國土計畫基本上是一個大分區的概念，所以它會比較大範圍在處理土地使用分區，另外在大的分區下面容許使用，委員另外提到的是區域發展的一個課題，區域發展的確需要跨縣市來進行討論跟整合，不過像過去基隆跟新北，我們就曾經針對基隆河谷廊帶，有臺北市、新北市跟基隆市的合作。另外像中部地區或者是南部地區其實也有，比如像中彰的合作等等，這個就是在跨縣市在跨都市計畫的行政轄區範圍裡面來做整體的規劃。跟我們現在要處理國土計畫的層次有一點不太一樣，不過委員剛剛提到的我非常認同，應該要有一個區域的整體規劃沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，雖然層次不同啦！但是如果一次把它拉高到一個高的程度以整體去看，我覺得反而對臺灣的發展更有利。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["張委員宏陸：如果以目前這樣子的話，會不會有很多縣市為了在國土計畫法實施之前，把很多非都地區加速往那邊偏移，會不會到時候變成非都土地大幅的飆漲？會不會有這個問題？"],["林部長右昌：委員，你指的是什麼意思？是它現在就往所謂的非都……"],["張委員宏陸：現在我們的非都土地是不是可以轉換成可開發用地？"],["林部長右昌：倒不是這樣，倒不是直接……"],["張委員宏陸：法律上是允許的啦！不是直接，我知道不是直接……"],["林部長右昌：因為非都的土地本來就是可以使用，它本來就可以使用，現在因為國土是大的一個分區，讓它更清楚，所以這兩個中間並沒有衝突的問題，它本來就可以使用。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得會，如果你去看，以臺中為例，臺中霧峰七成被劃入農業發展區，旁邊的大里就不一樣了，所以變成霧峰的農地大跌、大里的農地大漲，這在實價登錄上都有。"],["林部長右昌：不過這一部分我剛剛其實在報告裡面也有特別提到，中央會就地方未來發展所需要的產業發展區，這部分也要把它納入規劃，所以可能要看地方政府有沒有看到這一部分的需求，我們在計畫裡面應該是要考慮到這一點。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，以我們這樣來做理論上是沒有錯，但在地方實際執行上，我很擔心會有我說的這種問題出現，我不認為這是不可能的，我認為這是非常有可能的。"],["林部長右昌：這就是地方政府的計畫送上來之後，為什麼要兩級的審議，我們也會提供相關的意見。"],["張委員宏陸：對，這就是我要跟部長講的，部裡在審議的時候要特別注意這個部分。再來，針對國土計畫法，我覺得人民對土地有兩個很大的訴求，一個是生存權、一個是財產權，我的財產如果被徵收或什麼，我摸著鼻子，反正也沒有辦法，但他還可以活下去，對不對？但生存權我們就必須要特別去注意，像剛剛高金委員所說的，我覺得那個角度是比較傾向生存權，我世世代代都在這裡，你給我劃了之後我什麼都不能做、什麼都不行，我覺得這是生存權。我認為這個問題不是只有原民地區會發生，我們舉了很多的例子，新北烏來是原住民區，旁邊的坪林其實跟原住民區是一樣的，單獨一戶的也是有很多，這個問題我們也不能太著墨於只有在原住民區，我覺得要一併解決。不然我隔壁的就可以、我不行，這個會造成人民很大的困擾，部長的看法如何？"],["林部長右昌：我想這可能要每一個區每一個區來看，像剛剛委員所提到的坪林地區的部分，基本上是受到水質水量保護區的限制……"],["張委員宏陸：它是特別保護區，但是還有很多地方，像臺中市和平跟東勢就在隔壁，和平可以、東勢不行，東勢耕作的人怎麼辦？"],["林部長右昌：倒不應該產生所謂你可以我不行這樣的問題，我剛剛強調的站在國土使用的角度是讓它使用合理化，所以不應該變成你可以我不行這樣子來做比較。"],["張委員宏陸：我的意思是原住民區的我們一定要去照顧到，但同樣是生存權，我覺得全臺灣只要有土地的人，他的生存權都要被重視。"],["林部長右昌：是，我們當然會考量。"],["張委員宏陸：原住民我們當然要幫他，以我剛剛舉的例子，臺中東勢都是客家人，我們也要保護他，要讓他一樣有生存權，這一點我們要特別注意。"],["林部長右昌：是，當然，生存權我們會注意，土地的合理使用我們也會注意。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["主席（許委員宇甄代）：謝謝張宏陸委員的質詢，謝謝部長、謝謝署長。","接下來請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","蘇巧慧","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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00:01:07,563\n我現在聽到最多的是我以後的農地農用就永遠農用啊那我以後啊這個好像農地的價值就降低是不是很多人有擔心這個\n\n4\n00:01:09,446 --> 00:01:26,157\n國土計畫法其實最重要的精神就是國土的合理的使用那所以過去我們在非都的這些區域其實幾十年下來有很多存在的問題那這一次也一併透過國土計畫法把它做一個處理跟解決\n\n5\n00:01:27,137 --> 00:01:27,597\n對啦,但是\n\n6\n00:01:56,567 --> 00:02:22,467\n我們要講不然很多人就擔心這個是一個另外一個各縣市的進度是如何我手上的資料我知道好像只有3個縣市有報上來是各縣市的狀況不一為什麼因為縣市有大小然後縣市也有這個不同的一個狀況跟複雜的一個難度那目前送到部裡面有這個連江金門跟花蓮縣\n\n7\n00:02:23,448 --> 00:02:27,254\n其他會他們審完之後會陸陸續續送到部裡面來進行審議\n\n8\n00:02:28,755 --> 00:02:57,491\n其實就是因為他的複雜度跟地方的聲音多那縣市啊其實要整合也不容易啦然後要去做也不容易啦所以他們目前是因為這個原因所以才沒有辦法很快速的送上來吧是因為不同的縣市有不同的狀況比如說像新北市新北市就復原很廣大所以當然他的複雜度也增加那其他的這個就是所謂的農業縣的部分也有類似的一個狀況\n\n9\n00:02:59,364 --> 00:03:26,575\n對啦齁我覺得啦既然國土計畫法是上位的一個法啦齁其實我覺得這一次我有一個問題啦我們雖然是這樣但各縣市還是本於他的轄區去規劃然後去做其實沒有整個通盤考量台灣的整體的發展了對不對我舉個很簡單的例子啊我們新北\n\n10\n00:03:27,556 --> 00:03:31,973\n跟基隆以前的基隆其實有的很多的新北的生活圈是在基隆啊\n\n11\n00:03:32,868 --> 00:03:58,501\n我們這次的國土的規劃、國土的計畫其實沒有從一個更高的全國的角度去看還是各縣市以本位主義去處理那其實這裡就會有一個盲點新的生活區域、新的什麼到底是否符合未來台灣的發展還是本與本縣市直接去處理這樣是一個很大的盲點我不知道部長的看法如何\n\n12\n00:04:00,242 --> 00:04:18,181\n國土計畫基本上是一個大分區的一個概念所以它會比較大範圍在處理土地使用分區那另外在大的一個分區下面容許使用委員另外提到的是區域發展的一個課題那區域發展的確需要跨縣市來進行討論跟整合\n\n13\n00:04:19,842 --> 00:04:43,339\n不過這個就是像過去基隆跟新北我們就曾經針對基隆河谷廊帶有臺北市、新北市跟基隆市的一個合作那另外在比如說像中部地區或者是南部的地區其實也有比如說像中張的一個合作等等那這個就是在一個跨縣市在跨都市計畫的這個行政轄區的一個範圍裡面來做這個整體的一個規劃\n\n14\n00:04:46,181 --> 00:05:11,502\n那跟我們現在要處理國土計畫這個層次有一點不太一樣不過委員剛剛提到的我非常認同應該要有一個區域的整體規劃沒有錯部長雖然層次不同但是如果一次把它拉高在一個高的程度整體去看我覺得反而是對台灣的發展更有利如果以目前這樣子的話會不會有很多縣市\n\n15\n00:05:13,045 --> 00:05:37,564\n為了在這個國土計畫實施之前他把很多非都的地區加速往那邊偏移那會不會到時候變成非都的土地大幅的飆漲會不會有這個問題委員你指的是什麼意思是他現在就往你現在我們的非都土地是不是可以轉換成可開發用地\n\n16\n00:05:43,428 --> 00:05:51,636\n法律上是允許的啦因為非多的土地本來就是可以使用現在因為國土是大的一個分區讓他更清楚所以這兩個中間並沒有一個衝突的問題他本來就可以使用\n\n17\n00:06:04,128 --> 00:06:23,445\n我覺得會喔如果你去看阿齁我們以台中為例阿齁台中的霧峰阿齁七層被劃入農業發展區那旁邊的大理阿就不一樣了所以變成霧峰的農地大跌大理的農地大漲這是石家燈路上都有啦\n\n18\n00:06:24,482 --> 00:06:25,202\n我們是在計畫裡面是應該要考慮到這一點\n\n19\n00:06:46,508 --> 00:07:08,267\n我知道以我們這樣來做理論上是沒有錯但在地方上實際執行上我覺得我很擔心會有我說的這種問題出現我不認為這是不可能的我認為這是非常有可能的這個就是地方政府他們的計畫送上來之後我想為什麼要兩級的一個審議那我們也會提供相關的一個意見\n\n20\n00:07:12,236 --> 00:07:27,668\n對對對對我這個就是說要我要跟部長講我們部裡在審這個時候我們要特別注意這一個再來我們這個國土計畫法我覺得啦人民對土地有兩個很大的訴求一個是生存權一個是財產權\n\n21\n00:07:29,352 --> 00:07:54,026\n我的財產我如果被徵收或什麼我摸著鼻子反正也沒有辦法對不對但他還可以活下去但生存權我們就必須要特別去注意像剛剛高金委員他所說的我覺得他就那個角度是比較傾向生存權我事事大概在這裡你給我畫了之後我什麼都不能做我什麼都不行我覺得這是生存權\n\n22\n00:07:55,066 --> 00:08:09,564\n我認為這一個不是只有原民地區會發生我們舉很多的例子我們新北、烏來是原住民區但我們旁邊的坪林啊什麼的其實跟\n\n23\n00:08:10,765 --> 00:08:30,189\n原住民區是一樣的啊他單獨一戶的也是有很多啊對不對那我覺得像這個問題我們也不能太著墨於只有在原住民區我覺得要一併解決啊不然我隔壁的他可以啊我不行這個會造成人民很大的困擾部長你的看法如何\n\n24\n00:08:31,033 --> 00:08:52,822\n我想這個可能要每一個區每一個區來看像剛剛委員所提到的平民地區的部分它基本上是受到那個水質水量的這個保護區的一個限制它是特別啦是特別保護區的限制但你有很多地方啊你如果台中市你和平跟東市就隔壁啊那和平可以那東市不行\n\n25\n00:08:53,542 --> 00:08:53,562\n拜託!\n\n26\n00:09:11,494 --> 00:09:39,274\n我的意思是說原住民區的我們一定要去照顧到他我們不能但同樣的生存權我覺得全台灣的人只要他有這個土地我們的生存權都要被重視原住民我們當然要幫他那我剛以我舉的例台中的東勢那都是客家人啊對不對我們也要保護他要讓他一樣有這個生存權我覺得這一點我們要特別注意\n\n27\n00:09:40,255 --> 00:09:44,504\n當然生產權我們會注意土地的一個合理使用我們會注意好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6806\t12089\t其實我們現在今天所說的國土計畫法它是不是也等於是現有的國家公園計畫及都市計畫的上位計畫?\n29460\t31382\t大家就很關心啦 對不對\n57329\t67563\t我現在聽到最多的是我以後的農地農用就永遠農用啊那我以後啊這個好像農地的價值就降低是不是很多人有擔心這個\n69446\t86157\t國土計畫法其實最重要的精神就是國土的合理的使用那所以過去我們在非都的這些區域其實幾十年下來有很多存在的問題那這一次也一併透過國土計畫法把它做一個處理跟解決\n87137\t87597\t對啦,但是\n116567\t142467\t我們要講不然很多人就擔心這個是一個另外一個各縣市的進度是如何我手上的資料我知道好像只有3個縣市有報上來是各縣市的狀況不一為什麼因為縣市有大小然後縣市也有這個不同的一個狀況跟複雜的一個難度那目前送到部裡面有這個連江金門跟花蓮縣\n143448\t147254\t其他會他們審完之後會陸陸續續送到部裡面來進行審議\n148755\t177491\t其實就是因為他的複雜度跟地方的聲音多那縣市啊其實要整合也不容易啦然後要去做也不容易啦所以他們目前是因為這個原因所以才沒有辦法很快速的送上來吧是因為不同的縣市有不同的狀況比如說像新北市新北市就復原很廣大所以當然他的複雜度也增加那其他的這個就是所謂的農業縣的部分也有類似的一個狀況\n179364\t206575\t對啦齁我覺得啦既然國土計畫法是上位的一個法啦齁其實我覺得這一次我有一個問題啦我們雖然是這樣但各縣市還是本於他的轄區去規劃然後去做其實沒有整個通盤考量台灣的整體的發展了對不對我舉個很簡單的例子啊我們新北\n207556\t211973\t跟基隆以前的基隆其實有的很多的新北的生活圈是在基隆啊\n212868\t238501\t我們這次的國土的規劃、國土的計畫其實沒有從一個更高的全國的角度去看還是各縣市以本位主義去處理那其實這裡就會有一個盲點新的生活區域、新的什麼到底是否符合未來台灣的發展還是本與本縣市直接去處理這樣是一個很大的盲點我不知道部長的看法如何\n240242\t258181\t國土計畫基本上是一個大分區的一個概念所以它會比較大範圍在處理土地使用分區那另外在大的一個分區下面容許使用委員另外提到的是區域發展的一個課題那區域發展的確需要跨縣市來進行討論跟整合\n259842\t283339\t不過這個就是像過去基隆跟新北我們就曾經針對基隆河谷廊帶有臺北市、新北市跟基隆市的一個合作那另外在比如說像中部地區或者是南部的地區其實也有比如說像中張的一個合作等等那這個就是在一個跨縣市在跨都市計畫的這個行政轄區的一個範圍裡面來做這個整體的一個規劃\n286181\t311502\t那跟我們現在要處理國土計畫這個層次有一點不太一樣不過委員剛剛提到的我非常認同應該要有一個區域的整體規劃沒有錯部長雖然層次不同但是如果一次把它拉高在一個高的程度整體去看我覺得反而是對台灣的發展更有利如果以目前這樣子的話會不會有很多縣市\n313045\t337564\t為了在這個國土計畫實施之前他把很多非都的地區加速往那邊偏移那會不會到時候變成非都的土地大幅的飆漲會不會有這個問題委員你指的是什麼意思是他現在就往你現在我們的非都土地是不是可以轉換成可開發用地\n343428\t351636\t法律上是允許的啦因為非多的土地本來就是可以使用現在因為國土是大的一個分區讓他更清楚所以這兩個中間並沒有一個衝突的問題他本來就可以使用\n364128\t383445\t我覺得會喔如果你去看阿齁我們以台中為例阿齁台中的霧峰阿齁七層被劃入農業發展區那旁邊的大理阿就不一樣了所以變成霧峰的農地大跌大理的農地大漲這是石家燈路上都有啦\n384482\t385202\t我們是在計畫裡面是應該要考慮到這一點\n406508\t428267\t我知道以我們這樣來做理論上是沒有錯但在地方上實際執行上我覺得我很擔心會有我說的這種問題出現我不認為這是不可能的我認為這是非常有可能的這個就是地方政府他們的計畫送上來之後我想為什麼要兩級的一個審議那我們也會提供相關的一個意見\n432236\t447668\t對對對對我這個就是說要我要跟部長講我們部裡在審這個時候我們要特別注意這一個再來我們這個國土計畫法我覺得啦人民對土地有兩個很大的訴求一個是生存權一個是財產權\n449352\t474026\t我的財產我如果被徵收或什麼我摸著鼻子反正也沒有辦法對不對但他還可以活下去但生存權我們就必須要特別去注意像剛剛高金委員他所說的我覺得他就那個角度是比較傾向生存權我事事大概在這裡你給我畫了之後我什麼都不能做我什麼都不行我覺得這是生存權\n475066\t489564\t我認為這一個不是只有原民地區會發生我們舉很多的例子我們新北、烏來是原住民區但我們旁邊的坪林啊什麼的其實跟\n490765\t510189\t原住民區是一樣的啊他單獨一戶的也是有很多啊對不對那我覺得像這個問題我們也不能太著墨於只有在原住民區我覺得要一併解決啊不然我隔壁的他可以啊我不行這個會造成人民很大的困擾部長你的看法如何\n511033\t532822\t我想這個可能要每一個區每一個區來看像剛剛委員所提到的平民地區的部分它基本上是受到那個水質水量的這個保護區的一個限制它是特別啦是特別保護區的限制但你有很多地方啊你如果台中市你和平跟東市就隔壁啊那和平可以那東市不行\n533542\t533562\t拜託!\n551494\t579274\t我的意思是說原住民區的我們一定要去照顧到他我們不能但同樣的生存權我覺得全台灣的人只要他有這個土地我們的生存權都要被重視原住民我們當然要幫他那我剛以我舉的例台中的東勢那都是客家人啊對不對我們也要保護他要讓他一樣有這個生存權我覺得這一點我們要特別注意\n580255\t584504\t當然生產權我們會注意土地的一個合理使用我們會注意好謝謝\n","txt":"其實我們現在今天所說的國土計畫法它是不是也等於是現有的國家公園計畫及都市計畫的上位計畫?\n大家就很關心啦 對不對\n我現在聽到最多的是我以後的農地農用就永遠農用啊那我以後啊這個好像農地的價值就降低是不是很多人有擔心這個\n國土計畫法其實最重要的精神就是國土的合理的使用那所以過去我們在非都的這些區域其實幾十年下來有很多存在的問題那這一次也一併透過國土計畫法把它做一個處理跟解決\n對啦,但是\n我們要講不然很多人就擔心這個是一個另外一個各縣市的進度是如何我手上的資料我知道好像只有3個縣市有報上來是各縣市的狀況不一為什麼因為縣市有大小然後縣市也有這個不同的一個狀況跟複雜的一個難度那目前送到部裡面有這個連江金門跟花蓮縣\n其他會他們審完之後會陸陸續續送到部裡面來進行審議\n其實就是因為他的複雜度跟地方的聲音多那縣市啊其實要整合也不容易啦然後要去做也不容易啦所以他們目前是因為這個原因所以才沒有辦法很快速的送上來吧是因為不同的縣市有不同的狀況比如說像新北市新北市就復原很廣大所以當然他的複雜度也增加那其他的這個就是所謂的農業縣的部分也有類似的一個狀況\n對啦齁我覺得啦既然國土計畫法是上位的一個法啦齁其實我覺得這一次我有一個問題啦我們雖然是這樣但各縣市還是本於他的轄區去規劃然後去做其實沒有整個通盤考量台灣的整體的發展了對不對我舉個很簡單的例子啊我們新北\n跟基隆以前的基隆其實有的很多的新北的生活圈是在基隆啊\n我們這次的國土的規劃、國土的計畫其實沒有從一個更高的全國的角度去看還是各縣市以本位主義去處理那其實這裡就會有一個盲點新的生活區域、新的什麼到底是否符合未來台灣的發展還是本與本縣市直接去處理這樣是一個很大的盲點我不知道部長的看法如何\n國土計畫基本上是一個大分區的一個概念所以它會比較大範圍在處理土地使用分區那另外在大的一個分區下面容許使用委員另外提到的是區域發展的一個課題那區域發展的確需要跨縣市來進行討論跟整合\n不過這個就是像過去基隆跟新北我們就曾經針對基隆河谷廊帶有臺北市、新北市跟基隆市的一個合作那另外在比如說像中部地區或者是南部的地區其實也有比如說像中張的一個合作等等那這個就是在一個跨縣市在跨都市計畫的這個行政轄區的一個範圍裡面來做這個整體的一個規劃\n那跟我們現在要處理國土計畫這個層次有一點不太一樣不過委員剛剛提到的我非常認同應該要有一個區域的整體規劃沒有錯部長雖然層次不同但是如果一次把它拉高在一個高的程度整體去看我覺得反而是對台灣的發展更有利如果以目前這樣子的話會不會有很多縣市\n為了在這個國土計畫實施之前他把很多非都的地區加速往那邊偏移那會不會到時候變成非都的土地大幅的飆漲會不會有這個問題委員你指的是什麼意思是他現在就往你現在我們的非都土地是不是可以轉換成可開發用地\n法律上是允許的啦因為非多的土地本來就是可以使用現在因為國土是大的一個分區讓他更清楚所以這兩個中間並沒有一個衝突的問題他本來就可以使用\n我覺得會喔如果你去看阿齁我們以台中為例阿齁台中的霧峰阿齁七層被劃入農業發展區那旁邊的大理阿就不一樣了所以變成霧峰的農地大跌大理的農地大漲這是石家燈路上都有啦\n我們是在計畫裡面是應該要考慮到這一點\n我知道以我們這樣來做理論上是沒有錯但在地方上實際執行上我覺得我很擔心會有我說的這種問題出現我不認為這是不可能的我認為這是非常有可能的這個就是地方政府他們的計畫送上來之後我想為什麼要兩級的一個審議那我們也會提供相關的一個意見\n對對對對我這個就是說要我要跟部長講我們部裡在審這個時候我們要特別注意這一個再來我們這個國土計畫法我覺得啦人民對土地有兩個很大的訴求一個是生存權一個是財產權\n我的財產我如果被徵收或什麼我摸著鼻子反正也沒有辦法對不對但他還可以活下去但生存權我們就必須要特別去注意像剛剛高金委員他所說的我覺得他就那個角度是比較傾向生存權我事事大概在這裡你給我畫了之後我什麼都不能做我什麼都不行我覺得這是生存權\n我認為這一個不是只有原民地區會發生我們舉很多的例子我們新北、烏來是原住民區但我們旁邊的坪林啊什麼的其實跟\n原住民區是一樣的啊他單獨一戶的也是有很多啊對不對那我覺得像這個問題我們也不能太著墨於只有在原住民區我覺得要一併解決啊不然我隔壁的他可以啊我不行這個會造成人民很大的困擾部長你的看法如何\n我想這個可能要每一個區每一個區來看像剛剛委員所提到的平民地區的部分它基本上是受到那個水質水量的這個保護區的一個限制它是特別啦是特別保護區的限制但你有很多地方啊你如果台中市你和平跟東市就隔壁啊那和平可以那東市不行\n拜託!\n我的意思是說原住民區的我們一定要去照顧到他我們不能但同樣的生存權我覺得全台灣的人只要他有這個土地我們的生存權都要被重視原住民我們當然要幫他那我剛以我舉的例台中的東勢那都是客家人啊對不對我們也要保護他要讓他一樣有這個生存權我覺得這一點我們要特別注意\n當然生產權我們會注意土地的一個合理使用我們會注意好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.806 --> 00:12.089\n其實我們現在今天所說的國土計畫法它是不是也等於是現有的國家公園計畫及都市計畫的上位計畫?\n\n00:29.460 --> 00:31.382\n大家就很關心啦對不對\n\n00:57.329 --> 01:07.563\n我現在聽到最多的是我以後的農地農用就永遠農用啊那我以後啊這個好像農地的價值就降低是不是很多人有擔心這個\n\n01:09.446 --> 01:26.157\n國土計畫法其實最重要的精神就是國土的合理的使用那所以過去我們在非都的這些區域其實幾十年下來有很多存在的問題那這一次也一併透過國土計畫法把它做一個處理跟解決\n\n01:27.137 --> 01:27.597\n對啦,但是\n\n01:56.567 --> 02:22.467\n我們要講不然很多人就擔心這個是一個另外一個各縣市的進度是如何我手上的資料我知道好像只有3個縣市有報上來是各縣市的狀況不一為什麼因為縣市有大小然後縣市也有這個不同的一個狀況跟複雜的一個難度那目前送到部裡面有這個連江金門跟花蓮縣\n\n02:23.448 --> 02:27.254\n其他會他們審完之後會陸陸續續送到部裡面來進行審議\n\n02:28.755 --> 02:57.491\n其實就是因為他的複雜度跟地方的聲音多那縣市啊其實要整合也不容易啦然後要去做也不容易啦所以他們目前是因為這個原因所以才沒有辦法很快速的送上來吧是因為不同的縣市有不同的狀況比如說像新北市新北市就復原很廣大所以當然他的複雜度也增加那其他的這個就是所謂的農業縣的部分也有類似的一個狀況\n\n02:59.364 --> 03:26.575\n對啦齁我覺得啦既然國土計畫法是上位的一個法啦齁其實我覺得這一次我有一個問題啦我們雖然是這樣但各縣市還是本於他的轄區去規劃然後去做其實沒有整個通盤考量台灣的整體的發展了對不對我舉個很簡單的例子啊我們新北\n\n03:27.556 --> 03:31.973\n跟基隆以前的基隆其實有的很多的新北的生活圈是在基隆啊\n\n03:32.868 --> 03:58.501\n我們這次的國土的規劃、國土的計畫其實沒有從一個更高的全國的角度去看還是各縣市以本位主義去處理那其實這裡就會有一個盲點新的生活區域、新的什麼到底是否符合未來台灣的發展還是本與本縣市直接去處理這樣是一個很大的盲點我不知道部長的看法如何\n\n04:00.242 --> 04:18.181\n國土計畫基本上是一個大分區的一個概念所以它會比較大範圍在處理土地使用分區那另外在大的一個分區下面容許使用委員另外提到的是區域發展的一個課題那區域發展的確需要跨縣市來進行討論跟整合\n\n04:19.842 --> 04:43.339\n不過這個就是像過去基隆跟新北我們就曾經針對基隆河谷廊帶有臺北市、新北市跟基隆市的一個合作那另外在比如說像中部地區或者是南部的地區其實也有比如說像中張的一個合作等等那這個就是在一個跨縣市在跨都市計畫的這個行政轄區的一個範圍裡面來做這個整體的一個規劃\n\n04:46.181 --> 05:11.502\n那跟我們現在要處理國土計畫這個層次有一點不太一樣不過委員剛剛提到的我非常認同應該要有一個區域的整體規劃沒有錯部長雖然層次不同但是如果一次把它拉高在一個高的程度整體去看我覺得反而是對台灣的發展更有利如果以目前這樣子的話會不會有很多縣市\n\n05:13.045 --> 05:37.564\n為了在這個國土計畫實施之前他把很多非都的地區加速往那邊偏移那會不會到時候變成非都的土地大幅的飆漲會不會有這個問題委員你指的是什麼意思是他現在就往你現在我們的非都土地是不是可以轉換成可開發用地\n\n05:43.428 --> 05:51.636\n法律上是允許的啦因為非多的土地本來就是可以使用現在因為國土是大的一個分區讓他更清楚所以這兩個中間並沒有一個衝突的問題他本來就可以使用\n\n06:04.128 --> 06:23.445\n我覺得會喔如果你去看阿齁我們以台中為例阿齁台中的霧峰阿齁七層被劃入農業發展區那旁邊的大理阿就不一樣了所以變成霧峰的農地大跌大理的農地大漲這是石家燈路上都有啦\n\n06:24.482 --> 06:25.202\n我們是在計畫裡面是應該要考慮到這一點\n\n06:46.508 --> 07:08.267\n我知道以我們這樣來做理論上是沒有錯但在地方上實際執行上我覺得我很擔心會有我說的這種問題出現我不認為這是不可能的我認為這是非常有可能的這個就是地方政府他們的計畫送上來之後我想為什麼要兩級的一個審議那我們也會提供相關的一個意見\n\n07:12.236 --> 07:27.668\n對對對對我這個就是說要我要跟部長講我們部裡在審這個時候我們要特別注意這一個再來我們這個國土計畫法我覺得啦人民對土地有兩個很大的訴求一個是生存權一個是財產權\n\n07:29.352 --> 07:54.026\n我的財產我如果被徵收或什麼我摸著鼻子反正也沒有辦法對不對但他還可以活下去但生存權我們就必須要特別去注意像剛剛高金委員他所說的我覺得他就那個角度是比較傾向生存權我事事大概在這裡你給我畫了之後我什麼都不能做我什麼都不行我覺得這是生存權\n\n07:55.066 --> 08:09.564\n我認為這一個不是只有原民地區會發生我們舉很多的例子我們新北、烏來是原住民區但我們旁邊的坪林啊什麼的其實跟\n\n08:10.765 --> 08:30.189\n原住民區是一樣的啊他單獨一戶的也是有很多啊對不對那我覺得像這個問題我們也不能太著墨於只有在原住民區我覺得要一併解決啊不然我隔壁的他可以啊我不行這個會造成人民很大的困擾部長你的看法如何\n\n08:31.033 --> 08:52.822\n我想這個可能要每一個區每一個區來看像剛剛委員所提到的平民地區的部分它基本上是受到那個水質水量的這個保護區的一個限制它是特別啦是特別保護區的限制但你有很多地方啊你如果台中市你和平跟東市就隔壁啊那和平可以那東市不行\n\n08:53.542 --> 08:53.562\n拜託!\n\n09:11.494 --> 09:39.274\n我的意思是說原住民區的我們一定要去照顧到他我們不能但同樣的生存權我覺得全台灣的人只要他有這個土地我們的生存權都要被重視原住民我們當然要幫他那我剛以我舉的例台中的東勢那都是客家人啊對不對我們也要保護他要讓他一樣有這個生存權我覺得這一點我們要特別注意\n\n09:40.255 --> 09:44.504\n當然生產權我們會注意土地的一個合理使用我們會注意好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.806,"end":12.089,"text":"其實我們現在今天所說的國土計畫法它是不是也等於是現有的國家公園計畫及都市計畫的上位計畫?"},{"start":29.46,"end":31.382,"text":"大家就很關心啦 對不對"},{"start":57.329,"end":67.563,"text":"我現在聽到最多的是我以後的農地農用就永遠農用啊那我以後啊這個好像農地的價值就降低是不是很多人有擔心這個"},{"start":69.446,"end":86.157,"text":"國土計畫法其實最重要的精神就是國土的合理的使用那所以過去我們在非都的這些區域其實幾十年下來有很多存在的問題那這一次也一併透過國土計畫法把它做一個處理跟解決"},{"start":87.137,"end":87.597,"text":"對啦,但是"},{"start":116.567,"end":142.467,"text":"我們要講不然很多人就擔心這個是一個另外一個各縣市的進度是如何我手上的資料我知道好像只有3個縣市有報上來是各縣市的狀況不一為什麼因為縣市有大小然後縣市也有這個不同的一個狀況跟複雜的一個難度那目前送到部裡面有這個連江金門跟花蓮縣"},{"start":143.448,"end":147.254,"text":"其他會他們審完之後會陸陸續續送到部裡面來進行審議"},{"start":148.755,"end":177.491,"text":"其實就是因為他的複雜度跟地方的聲音多那縣市啊其實要整合也不容易啦然後要去做也不容易啦所以他們目前是因為這個原因所以才沒有辦法很快速的送上來吧是因為不同的縣市有不同的狀況比如說像新北市新北市就復原很廣大所以當然他的複雜度也增加那其他的這個就是所謂的農業縣的部分也有類似的一個狀況"},{"start":179.364,"end":206.575,"text":"對啦齁我覺得啦既然國土計畫法是上位的一個法啦齁其實我覺得這一次我有一個問題啦我們雖然是這樣但各縣市還是本於他的轄區去規劃然後去做其實沒有整個通盤考量台灣的整體的發展了對不對我舉個很簡單的例子啊我們新北"},{"start":207.556,"end":211.973,"text":"跟基隆以前的基隆其實有的很多的新北的生活圈是在基隆啊"},{"start":212.868,"end":238.501,"text":"我們這次的國土的規劃、國土的計畫其實沒有從一個更高的全國的角度去看還是各縣市以本位主義去處理那其實這裡就會有一個盲點新的生活區域、新的什麼到底是否符合未來台灣的發展還是本與本縣市直接去處理這樣是一個很大的盲點我不知道部長的看法如何"},{"start":240.242,"end":258.181,"text":"國土計畫基本上是一個大分區的一個概念所以它會比較大範圍在處理土地使用分區那另外在大的一個分區下面容許使用委員另外提到的是區域發展的一個課題那區域發展的確需要跨縣市來進行討論跟整合"},{"start":259.842,"end":283.339,"text":"不過這個就是像過去基隆跟新北我們就曾經針對基隆河谷廊帶有臺北市、新北市跟基隆市的一個合作那另外在比如說像中部地區或者是南部的地區其實也有比如說像中張的一個合作等等那這個就是在一個跨縣市在跨都市計畫的這個行政轄區的一個範圍裡面來做這個整體的一個規劃"},{"start":286.181,"end":311.502,"text":"那跟我們現在要處理國土計畫這個層次有一點不太一樣不過委員剛剛提到的我非常認同應該要有一個區域的整體規劃沒有錯部長雖然層次不同但是如果一次把它拉高在一個高的程度整體去看我覺得反而是對台灣的發展更有利如果以目前這樣子的話會不會有很多縣市"},{"start":313.045,"end":337.564,"text":"為了在這個國土計畫實施之前他把很多非都的地區加速往那邊偏移那會不會到時候變成非都的土地大幅的飆漲會不會有這個問題委員你指的是什麼意思是他現在就往你現在我們的非都土地是不是可以轉換成可開發用地"},{"start":343.428,"end":351.636,"text":"法律上是允許的啦因為非多的土地本來就是可以使用現在因為國土是大的一個分區讓他更清楚所以這兩個中間並沒有一個衝突的問題他本來就可以使用"},{"start":364.128,"end":383.445,"text":"我覺得會喔如果你去看阿齁我們以台中為例阿齁台中的霧峰阿齁七層被劃入農業發展區那旁邊的大理阿就不一樣了所以變成霧峰的農地大跌大理的農地大漲這是石家燈路上都有啦"},{"start":384.482,"end":385.202,"text":"我們是在計畫裡面是應該要考慮到這一點"},{"start":406.508,"end":428.267,"text":"我知道以我們這樣來做理論上是沒有錯但在地方上實際執行上我覺得我很擔心會有我說的這種問題出現我不認為這是不可能的我認為這是非常有可能的這個就是地方政府他們的計畫送上來之後我想為什麼要兩級的一個審議那我們也會提供相關的一個意見"},{"start":432.236,"end":447.668,"text":"對對對對我這個就是說要我要跟部長講我們部裡在審這個時候我們要特別注意這一個再來我們這個國土計畫法我覺得啦人民對土地有兩個很大的訴求一個是生存權一個是財產權"},{"start":449.352,"end":474.026,"text":"我的財產我如果被徵收或什麼我摸著鼻子反正也沒有辦法對不對但他還可以活下去但生存權我們就必須要特別去注意像剛剛高金委員他所說的我覺得他就那個角度是比較傾向生存權我事事大概在這裡你給我畫了之後我什麼都不能做我什麼都不行我覺得這是生存權"},{"start":475.066,"end":489.564,"text":"我認為這一個不是只有原民地區會發生我們舉很多的例子我們新北、烏來是原住民區但我們旁邊的坪林啊什麼的其實跟"},{"start":490.765,"end":510.189,"text":"原住民區是一樣的啊他單獨一戶的也是有很多啊對不對那我覺得像這個問題我們也不能太著墨於只有在原住民區我覺得要一併解決啊不然我隔壁的他可以啊我不行這個會造成人民很大的困擾部長你的看法如何"},{"start":511.033,"end":532.822,"text":"我想這個可能要每一個區每一個區來看像剛剛委員所提到的平民地區的部分它基本上是受到那個水質水量的這個保護區的一個限制它是特別啦是特別保護區的限制但你有很多地方啊你如果台中市你和平跟東市就隔壁啊那和平可以那東市不行"},{"start":533.542,"end":533.562,"text":"拜託!"},{"start":551.494,"end":579.274,"text":"我的意思是說原住民區的我們一定要去照顧到他我們不能但同樣的生存權我覺得全台灣的人只要他有這個土地我們的生存權都要被重視原住民我們當然要幫他那我剛以我舉的例台中的東勢那都是客家人啊對不對我們也要保護他要讓他一樣有這個生存權我覺得這一點我們要特別注意"},{"start":580.255,"end":584.504,"text":"當然生產權我們會注意土地的一個合理使用我們會注意好謝謝"}]}}}}