{"id":150119,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150119","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f1926117347176728f11135db69d26d20764f8ba9b0039caa7a6dc6d513c1fde7d655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:36:32 - 10:49:58","影片長度":"00:13:26","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-7"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":806,"end_time":"2024-03-20T10:49:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T10:36:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":411,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時36分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請吳部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。之前在很多的活動場合當中，我作為一般學者接受了很多外交部的幫忙，在這邊先跟部長致謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：我在這邊也要非常慎重地說，委員之前在學術上的表現對我們外交部幫助很多，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。今天在這個位置，我們還是要盡立法委員的職責，想要詢問外交部一些事項，大概有三大問題，第一個問題其實還是跟最近的法律戰有關，我先盤點一下，從2012年開始中國包圍黃岩島，當時有協調，但是它不尊重協調的結果，所以漸漸地就把它改變主權的現狀，現在就是圍在那一邊。2014年的時候又有國際仲裁法院，海牙法院都已經說九段線有違反國際海洋公約，但中國不承認裁定的結果，所以也導致現在的這些紛爭。2013年的美國國防部報告也再次提出，中國會不斷地用這樣的一些手法去製造新常態或者新的法律現狀，然後不斷地來跟我們 argue，所以這當然是我們現在所面臨的狀況。","這陣子我們稍微盤點了一下，剛好也有很多學者在盤點這個情勢，就是我們接下來會遇到的狀況大概會有三個，第一個就是它還是要重新框架兩岸的關係，這是自然的。第二個應該是部長最熟悉的，它會不斷地壓縮我們國際上的空間。第三個是利用國際法的模糊地帶去破壞臺灣任何獨立自決的法律基礎。因為第二個跟第三個部分稍微比較遠一點，所以想要詢問的是第一個，就是重新框架兩岸關係，因為說真的，以中國在世界各國的動向、在國際組織的權力以及它的network來看，我們比較懼怕的是假設今天在臺海發生了任何的紛爭或者甚至發生了戰爭，在這樣的狀況之下，它去發動任何情勢的投票，比如投票臺灣到底是不是中國的一部分，我覺得以現在國際上的評估來講，我們要贏下這個投票應該不是很容易。因為這是可能會面臨的狀況，不知道現在部長面對這個未來可能的狀況，目前的評估及可能的解決方案會是什麼？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員提出這個問題，當然這個是一個很好的假設，如果要讓這個假設成真的話，可能必須要有一些條件，依我看來，這個條件大概還不到馬上會成真的地步。在還沒有去推中國的這些條件之前，其實它已經有其他的替代方式或許也能夠達到同樣的效果，卻能夠做最小的變動，那就是聯合國2758號決議案。","2758號決議案在最近這幾年中國的扭曲方式已經是超乎我們過去所看到的，不只是讓聯合國以及聯合國體系去接受2758號決議案中國的詮釋，詮釋成為一個中國原則、詮釋成為臺灣是中華人民共和國的一部分，而且在很多的國際活動、國際組織，或者是涉及到臺灣的邦交，它都拿2758號決議案來說。譬如我們跟諾魯斷交，它就拿出2758號決議案，又譬如我們退出中美洲議會的時候，它也拿2758號決議案。也就是說，中國有2758號決議案到處衍生的話，它已經試著用2758號決議案來框架成臺灣是屬於中國內政的作法，它如果再去推另外一個決議案的話，或許會製造更多的紛擾。我們現在正在防的就是避免中國在運用2758號決議案的時候是無限地擴大，我們也必須要去結合這些友盟國家來針對中國所採取針對2758號決議案的這些作為予以反制，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長。綜合剛剛部長的盤點，當然我們知道其實中國要發動我們剛剛講的這種投票會非常地謹慎，它必須要在關鍵時候才會去做這件事情。在這個之前，中國想要循序漸進去推這個框架，2758對它很重要，目前以我們在國際的這些朋友來講，越來越多的動作，大家都在宣稱說2758號實質的內容其實跟中國講的是不一樣的，所以是不是意思就是說外交部會持續地往這個方向來推進？畢竟因為這是一個很堅實的法律戰。"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有錯，一點都沒有錯，我們也覺得2758號決議案是一個關鍵，也因為中國成功地在聯合國的體系裡面讓聯合國體系去接受它的詮釋，這個對我們來講是一個很不利的狀況。跟我們很友好的，像美國等等的這些國家，他們目前也看到了2758號決議案被無限擴大的狀況，也因此我們在這個部分也有更多的合作。除了跟這些友盟國家的政府進行探討之外，其實也有很多重要的國際NGO團體，他們也在重視這個議題，譬如German Marshall Fund已經出了一篇paper，它現在還在寫另外一篇paper，這所看到的就是要讓國際社會去理解到中國在擴張2758號決議案的時候是破壞現狀的一個行為、是在製造對臺灣不利的一個行為，也是製造區域緊張的一個行為。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以2758可以說是一個前哨站，因此我們要守住2758號的詮釋權其實是非常重要的。我現在想問的就是因為2758號是目前我們面臨的狀況，我們也必須要去捍衛，並且把詮釋權掌握在我們跟我們的盟友手上。但是接下來如果發生爭端之後，爭端會有國際法院等等之類的，也就是事後處理這件事情，我剛好看到在1月的時候有提到我們有可能會加入ICC，除了這則新聞之外，並不知道後續的狀況，是不是可以趁這個時候也跟國人說明一下？就是國際刑事法院目前推動的狀況是如何，以及有沒有可能加入這一方面的問題？"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員很坦承地報告，這個議題有討論，但是我們並沒有一個正面的結論，也就是在申請的過程當中，我們很擔心這個國際組織對我們的詮釋如果對我們更加不利的話，那會讓我們陷入更多的困境，所以要去加入這些對我們來講可能很重要的國際組織，可能最重要的關鍵點應該是結合更多支持我們的這些盟友，譬如我們在推世界衛生組織的時候，就是越來越多的國家支持我們、越來越多的國家參加聯署、越來越多的國家去秘書處進洽，這個就是擴大我們的支撐範圍，等到有一個critical mass的時候，那時候才是showdown的時候。"],["沈委員伯洋：我們之後再持續追蹤這件事情。還有一個問題，因為我們比較常講到的都是跟中國有關的威脅，今年臺灣民主實驗室，就是我過往創立的組織，我們的研究員在外交家裡面有寫了一篇文章，這篇文章最主要是在盤點俄羅斯現在在輿論戰場所做的事情，我們就發現，你看這是俄羅斯的帳號，這個大概有26萬人觀看過，那它裡面最主要就是在講，這旁邊是翻譯，不好意思，因為這個是大家比較不熟悉的文字，總之，它是在講我們臺灣會進一步的軍事化，會開始有挑釁的行為等等之類的，它總共有83萬人訂閱，所以其實是一個蠻大的網紅。接下來像這一個是說臺灣發生戰爭的可能性已經越來越高了，這是他們的解讀，還有一個是說其實我們這個即將在520就任的總統只有29%的人投票給他，這其實是一個錯誤的數據，這邊已經進入假消息的層次了。最後一個就是他們甚至用了一個金門的影片，這是聯合新聞網裡面的一個影片，這個影片就是說金門有很多人要回來投票，結果我們故意不讓他們回來投票。這些其實除了有些陰謀論之外，都是不斷地告訴大家美國在背後怎麼支持、怎麼煽動，然後美國才是邪惡的一方，以及製造假消息，這個已經在俄羅斯世界傳開了。","那這個跟我去年在基輔看到的現象有一點類似，就是我在基輔的時候看到有很多假消息是在攻擊臺灣，那是俄羅斯的網軍所為，但是因為在基輔只有3個臺灣人，所以他們不可能一個一個回應嘛！簡單來講，他們選了一個戰場，這是沒有人回應的戰場，那我們在那邊就會節節敗退。倒過來講，中國在臺灣其實也在做一樣的事情，就是中國在臺灣很喜歡傳跟烏克蘭相關的謠言，說烏克蘭才是挑釁者，美國在後面怎麼資助烏克蘭，所以才導致了戰爭的爆發，因為在臺灣的烏克蘭人也不夠多，所以他們也不可能一個一個去回應。","以前在民間的想法會想到說我們這些國家大家應該要有一個更強的盟友關係，不只是邦交上的關係，而且是交換情資的關係，譬如說我們讓他知道烏克蘭怎麼在臺灣被攻擊，他才有機會來幫忙闢謠嘛！他們告訴我說臺灣怎麼在那邊被攻擊，我們才可以過去闢謠，所以我們有沒有辦法在外交上面來建立一個像這樣的機制？因為如果是從國防部的角度來出發，就像我們上次在總質詢的時候本來要問部長，但是來不及問，以國防部來講，它大概沒有這樣的能量來做這些事情，現在外交部認為我們對於這種不是我們語系在詆毀我們國家的這個部分應該要怎麼因應？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員，這個問題的確也是一個讓我們必須要慎重來思考的議題，譬如說你剛剛講的那個俄羅斯語系的部分，這個是 inaccessible to us，所以在這種情況之下要去 detect，然後要針對這些去做澄清，那我們可能就力有未逮，畢竟在俄羅斯所控制的這個區域或者俄羅斯的語系裡面，可能東歐有很多的國家也接受類似的訊息，所以對我們來講也是必須要去做的功課。那委員所提出來的問題的確是我們外交部這邊必須要認真來思考的，關於我們目前在做的，也提供給委員做一下參考，我們還沒有走到那個程度，但是我們可以從我們現在在做的這個地方來延伸到其他的地方，就是我們在大選的時候也是受到這些選舉的干預，我們覺得可能其他民主國家也要共同面對這個議題，就是在今年有40個民主選舉，可能其他國家也會遭遇這種類似的狀況，所以我去結合了我們臺灣這些civic society的好朋友們，讓他們能夠有一些研究的成果，然後到美國、到加拿大、到歐盟去做發表，能夠跟其他重視這個議題的朋友有更多這種意見的交換，由此來互相學習如何抗衡操縱選舉或者是面對假訊息攻勢的機會。如果我們能夠進一步擴大到其他對我們臺灣來講比較稀有的語系，我想這個也是應該要去做的，我們會來思考應該去做的方向。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。主席，再給我30秒，那可能就不用回應，我就是快速地再問一個也是跟民主基金會有關的問題，就是國民黨網站裡面英文版的部分在2020年停止更新了，但是在民主基金會的申請上面，在2021年還是有申請一筆72萬元的預算，我覺得也有可能他們是更新在我們不知道的地方等等之類的，所以是不是到最後去看一下這方面的結案報告？就是不管是他們宣稱的英文版跟日文版相關的更新，為什麼在2020年已經沒有在運作了，可是在2021年還有相關的補助？這個問題是跟民主基金會比較有關，可是因為時間的因素，可能也比較來不及回應，所以希望等到之後能夠有這方面的回報，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員仁代）：好，謝謝沈伯洋委員的發言，接下來是由馬文君委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-7","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","林楚茵","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","洪申翰","陳冠廷","賴士葆","牛煦庭","林憶君","李坤城","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","翁曉玲","王鴻薇"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"150119","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150119","tool":"pyannote","id":"150119-pyannote"},"job_id":"I60Y8VLpwkrcfD6F","queued_at":"2024-06-02 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231.329, \"end\": 231.569, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 231.569, \"end\": 232.03, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"諾\"}, {\"word\": \"魯\"}, {\"word\": \"端\", \"start\": 232.03, \"end\": 232.21, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 232.21, \"end\": 232.43, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 232.43, \"end\": 232.59, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 232.59, \"end\": 232.75, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 232.75, \"end\": 232.95, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 232.95, \"end\": 233.991, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 233.991, \"end\": 234.231, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 234.231, \"end\": 234.411, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 234.411, \"end\": 234.572, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 234.572, \"end\": 234.752, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 234.752, \"end\": 234.932, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 234.932, \"end\": 235.052, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 235.052, \"end\": 235.212, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"洲\", \"start\": 235.212, \"end\": 235.232, \"score\": 0.351}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}]}, {\"start\": 236.693, \"end\": 244.48, \"text\": \"退出的時候他也拿2758號決議案也就是說中國有2758號決議案的這個到處的這種衍生的話他已經試著用2758號決議案來框架成台灣是屬於中國內政的這個做法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"退\", \"start\": 236.693, \"end\": 236.873, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 236.873, \"end\": 237.053, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 237.053, \"end\": 237.334, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 237.334, \"end\": 237.494, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 237.494, \"end\": 237.634, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 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\"text\": \"那他如果說再去推另外一個決議案的話或許會製造更多的這些紛擾那我們現在正在訪的就是說避免中國在運用2758號決議案的時候是無限的擴大那我們也必須要去結合這些有盟的國家來針對中國所採取針對2758號決議案的這些作為予以反制謝謝委員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 254.088, \"end\": 254.288, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 254.288, \"end\": 254.468, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 254.468, \"end\": 254.628, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 254.628, \"end\": 255.289, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 255.289, \"end\": 255.489, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 255.489, \"end\": 255.749, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 255.749, \"end\": 256.089, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 256.089, \"end\": 256.269, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 256.269, \"end\": 256.43, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 256.43, \"end\": 257.17, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 257.17, 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\"謝謝部長那所以綜合剛剛部長的這一個盤點那當然我們知道其實中國要發動我們剛剛講的這種投票他會非常的謹慎他必須要在關鍵的時候才會去做這件事情那在這個之前中國想要去循序漸進去推這個框架2758對他很重要那目前以國際我們的這些朋友來講越來越多的動作大家都在宣稱說這個2758號實質的內容其實跟中國講的是不一樣的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 279.784, \"end\": 280.445, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 280.445, \"end\": 280.665, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 280.665, \"end\": 281.125, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 281.125, \"end\": 281.305, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"綜\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 281.305, \"end\": 281.705, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 281.705, \"end\": 282.025, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 282.025, \"end\": 282.266, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 282.266, \"end\": 283.306, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", 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\"end\": 286.408, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 286.408, \"end\": 286.728, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 286.728, \"end\": 287.088, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 287.088, \"end\": 287.188, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 287.188, \"end\": 287.288, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 287.288, \"end\": 288.109, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"謹\"}, {\"word\": \"慎\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 288.109, \"end\": 288.229, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 288.229, \"end\": 288.409, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 288.409, \"end\": 288.509, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 288.509, \"end\": 289.009, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"鍵\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 289.009, \"end\": 289.229, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 289.229, \"end\": 289.289, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 289.289, \"end\": 289.529, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 289.529, \"end\": 289.71, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 289.71, \"end\": 290.03, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 290.03, \"end\": 290.23, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 290.23, \"end\": 290.41, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 290.41, \"end\": 290.91, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 290.91, \"end\": 291.03, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 291.03, \"end\": 291.37, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 291.37, \"end\": 291.551, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 291.551, \"end\": 291.871, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 291.871, \"end\": 292.171, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 292.171, \"end\": 292.311, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"要\", 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\"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 299.775, \"end\": 299.875, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 299.875, \"end\": 300.255, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 300.255, \"end\": 300.455, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 300.455, \"end\": 300.575, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 300.575, \"end\": 300.635, \"score\": 0.662}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 300.635, \"end\": 300.715, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 300.715, \"end\": 300.876, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"宣\", \"start\": 300.876, \"end\": 301.016, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"稱\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 301.016, \"end\": 301.036, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 301.036, \"end\": 301.096, \"score\": 0.495}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 301.096, \"end\": 301.116, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 301.116, \"end\": 301.216, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 301.216, \"end\": 301.236, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 301.236, \"end\": 301.296, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 301.296, \"end\": 301.456, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 301.456, \"end\": 301.536, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 301.536, \"end\": 301.596, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 301.596, \"end\": 301.616, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 306.038, \"end\": 330.988, \"text\": \"所以是不是意思就是說外交部會持續的往這個方向來推進畢竟因為這是一個很堅實的一個法律戰沒有錯一點都沒有錯我們也覺得說2758號決議案是一個關鍵那也因為中國成功的在聯合國的這個體系裡面讓聯合國的體系去接受他的這個權勢這個對我們來講是一個很有利的一個狀況很不利的一個狀況\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 306.038, \"end\": 306.218, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 306.218, \"end\": 306.358, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 306.358, \"end\": 306.478, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 306.478, \"end\": 306.578, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 306.578, \"end\": 306.738, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 306.738, \"end\": 306.899, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 306.899, \"end\": 307.019, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 307.019, \"end\": 307.239, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 307.239, \"end\": 307.379, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 307.379, \"end\": 307.499, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 307.499, \"end\": 307.639, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 307.639, \"end\": 307.919, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 307.919, \"end\": 308.219, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 308.219, \"end\": 308.339, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"往\", \"start\": 308.339, \"end\": 308.779, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 308.779, \"end\": 308.899, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 308.899, \"end\": 309.259, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"推\", \"start\": 309.259, \"end\": 309.479, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"畢\"}, {\"word\": \"竟\", \"start\": 309.479, \"end\": 309.9, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 309.9, \"end\": 310.46, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 310.46, \"end\": 310.56, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 310.56, \"end\": 311.02, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 311.02, \"end\": 311.5, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"堅\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 311.5, \"end\": 311.6, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 311.6, \"end\": 311.8, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 311.8, \"end\": 311.92, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 311.92, \"end\": 312.841, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 312.841, \"end\": 312.941, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 312.941, \"end\": 313.481, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 313.481, \"end\": 313.701, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 313.701, \"end\": 313.841, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 313.841, \"end\": 313.941, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 313.941, \"end\": 314.201, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"錯\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 314.201, \"end\": 314.321, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 314.321, \"end\": 314.681, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 314.681, \"end\": 316.962, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 324.705, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 324.705, \"end\": 325.826, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 325.826, \"end\": 326.366, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 326.366, \"end\": 328.547, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 328.547, \"end\": 328.767, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 328.767, \"end\": 329.287, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 329.287, \"end\": 329.487, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 329.487, \"end\": 329.647, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 329.647, \"end\": 329.787, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 329.787, \"end\": 330.427, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 330.427, \"end\": 330.607, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 330.607, \"end\": 330.728, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 330.728, \"end\": 330.848, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 330.848, \"end\": 330.968, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 330.968, \"end\": 330.988, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}]}, {\"start\": 332.048, \"end\": 361.324, \"text\": \"那跟我們很有好的像美國等等的這些國家他們目前也看到了2758號決議案被無限擴大的這個狀況也因此我們在這個部分也有更多的合作那除了跟這些有門國家的這個政府進行探討之外其實也有很多重要的這個NGO那個國際的NGO團體他們也在重視這個議題比如像那個German Marshall Fund他已經出了一篇paper他現在還在寫另外一篇paper\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 332.048, \"end\": 332.328, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 332.328, \"end\": 332.508, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 332.508, \"end\": 332.828, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 332.828, \"end\": 333.069, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 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659.682, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 659.682, \"end\": 659.803, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 659.803, \"end\": 660.283, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 660.283, \"end\": 660.963, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"i\", \"start\": 660.963, \"end\": 661.043, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"n\", \"start\": 661.043, \"end\": 661.163, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"a\", \"start\": 661.163, \"end\": 661.323, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"c\", \"start\": 661.323, \"end\": 661.363, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"c\", \"start\": 661.363, \"end\": 661.824, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"e\", \"start\": 661.824, \"end\": 662.004, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"s\", \"start\": 662.004, \"end\": 662.244, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"s\", \"start\": 662.244, \"end\": 662.444, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"i\", \"start\": 662.444, \"end\": 662.544, \"score\": 0.8}, 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664.906, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 664.906, \"end\": 665.046, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 665.046, \"end\": 665.386, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 665.386, \"end\": 665.586, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 665.586, \"end\": 666.066, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"d\", \"start\": 666.066, \"end\": 666.106, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"e\", \"start\": 666.106, \"end\": 666.246, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"t\", \"start\": 666.246, \"end\": 666.306, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"e\", \"start\": 666.306, \"end\": 666.567, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"c\", \"start\": 666.567, \"end\": 666.807, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"t\", \"start\": 666.807, \"end\": 667.287, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 667.287, \"end\": 667.427, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 667.427, \"end\": 667.567, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 667.567, \"end\": 667.767, 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{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 684.073, \"end\": 684.313, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 684.313, \"end\": 684.513, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 684.513, \"end\": 684.673, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 684.673, \"end\": 684.933, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 684.933, \"end\": 685.213, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 685.213, \"end\": 685.333, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 685.333, \"end\": 685.633, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 685.633, \"end\": 685.753, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 685.753, \"end\": 685.873, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 685.873, \"end\": 686.334, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 686.334, \"end\": 686.574, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 686.574, \"end\": 686.694, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 686.694, \"end\": 687.374, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 687.374, \"end\": 687.554, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 687.554, \"end\": 687.754, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 687.754, \"end\": 688.414, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 688.414, \"end\": 688.714, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 688.714, \"end\": 688.974, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 688.974, \"end\": 689.194, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 689.194, \"end\": 689.414, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 689.414, \"end\": 689.674, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 689.674, \"end\": 689.914, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 689.914, \"end\": 690.254, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 690.254, \"end\": 690.535, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 690.535, \"end\": 690.915, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 690.915, \"end\": 691.115, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 691.115, \"end\": 691.195, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 691.195, \"end\": 691.495, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 691.495, \"end\": 691.515, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 693.308, \"end\": 716.863, \"text\": \"我們還沒有走到那個程度但是我們可以從我們現在在做的這個地方來延伸到其他的這個地方就是我們在大選的時候也是受到這些那個選舉的干預那我們覺得說這個議題可能是其他的民主國家也會共同面對的這個議題就是今年會有40個民主選舉可能其他的國家也遭遇類似的這個狀況\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 693.308, \"end\": 693.468, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 693.468, \"end\": 693.768, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 693.768, \"end\": 693.888, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"走\", \"start\": 693.888, \"end\": 694.028, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 694.028, 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\"start\": 764.06, \"end\": 767.664, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 767.664, \"end\": 768.005, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"網\"}, {\"word\": \"站\", \"start\": 768.005, \"end\": 768.465, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 768.465, \"end\": 768.726, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 768.726, \"end\": 768.866, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 768.866, \"end\": 769.026, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 769.026, \"end\": 769.146, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 769.146, \"end\": 769.287, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 769.287, \"end\": 769.467, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 769.467, \"end\": 770.448, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 770.448, \"end\": 770.588, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 770.588, \"end\": 770.748, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 770.748, \"end\": 770.909, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 770.909, \"end\": 771.109, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 771.109, \"end\": 771.89, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 771.89, \"end\": 772.01, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 772.01, \"end\": 772.11, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 772.11, \"end\": 772.25, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 772.25, \"end\": 772.39, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 772.39, \"end\": 772.531, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 772.531, \"end\": 772.551, \"score\": 0.046}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 772.551, \"end\": 772.631, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 772.631, \"end\": 772.671, \"score\": 0.462}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 772.671, \"end\": 772.811, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 772.811, \"end\": 772.831, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 772.831, \"end\": 773.031, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 773.031, \"end\": 773.131, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 773.131, \"end\": 773.232, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 773.232, \"end\": 773.252, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 773.252, \"end\": 773.272, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 773.272, \"end\": 773.452, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 773.452, \"end\": 773.592, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 773.592, \"end\": 773.612, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 773.612, \"end\": 773.652, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 773.652, \"end\": 773.672, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 779.599, \"end\": 779.619, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,739 --> 00:00:03,681\n謝謝主席那有請部長謝謝請吳部長沈委員好部長好那這個之前在很多的活動場合當中我作為一般的學者接受了很多外交部的幫忙在這邊先跟部長致謝\n\n2\n00:00:24,657 --> 00:00:46,325\n我在這邊也要非常慎重的說委員在之前那個學術上的表現對我們外交部幫助很多謝謝委員今天這個位置我們還是盡這個立法委員的職責那想要詢問外交部一些事項那大概有三大問題那第一個問題其實還是跟這一個向來最近這個法律戰有關\n\n3\n00:00:47,245 --> 00:00:49,567\n2012年開始,中國開始包圍黃岩島當時有這個協調,但是他不尊重這個協調的結果所以漸漸地就把它改變這個主權的現狀現在就是圍在那一邊2014年的時候,又有這個國際仲裁法院\n\n4\n00:01:07,225 --> 00:01:30,898\n海牙法院都已經說這個九段線有違反這個國際海洋公約那中國不承認然後這個裁定的結果所以也導致現在的這些紛爭那2013年這個美國國防部報告也再次提出來就是中國會不斷地用這樣的一些手法去製造新常態或者新的法律的現狀然後不斷地來跟我們argue所以這當然是一個我們現在面臨的一個狀況\n\n5\n00:01:31,898 --> 00:01:57,451\n所以這陣子我們稍微盤點了一下那剛好也有很多的學者在盤點這個情勢就是說我們接下來會遇到的狀況大概會有這三個那第一個就是他還是要重新框架這個兩岸的關係這個是自然那第二個應該是部長最熟悉的他會不斷的壓縮我們國際上的空間然後以及利用國際法的這個模糊地帶去破壞我們台灣任何獨立自覺的這種法律基礎\n\n6\n00:01:58,792 --> 00:02:26,028\n今天想要問部長的呢因為第二個跟第三個部分稍微比較遠一點所以想要詢問的是第一個就是重新框架兩岸關係因為現在呢說真的以中國在世界各國的這一個動向以及他在國際組織的這一個權力以及他的network來看我們比較懼怕的是說呢假設今天在台海發生了任何的紛爭或者甚至發生了戰爭那在這樣的一個狀況之下呢他去發動任何形式的投票\n\n7\n00:02:28,170 --> 00:02:38,721\n臺灣到底是不是中國的一部分以現在國際上的評估來講我們要贏下這個投票應該不是很容易這是可能會面臨的狀況不知道現在部長面對這個未來可能的狀況目前的評估可能解決的方案會是什麼\n\n8\n00:02:46,751 --> 00:03:11,457\n非常謝謝委員提出來這個問題當然這是一個很好的假設那如果說要讓這個假設成真的話可能必須要有一些條件那我在看來這個條件大概還不到說馬上會成真的這個地步那其實在還沒有去推中國的這些條件之前其實他已經有其他的這個替代的這個方式\n\n9\n00:03:11,917 --> 00:03:12,317\n李卓人議員\n\n10\n00:03:28,532 --> 00:03:55,232\n不只是讓聯合國以及聯合國體系去接受2758號決議案中國的這個權勢權勢成為一個中國原則權勢成為台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分而且在很多的這些國際的活動國際的組織或者是涉及到台灣的邦交他都拿2758號決議案來說比如像我們跟諾魯端交他就拿出2758號決議案比如說我們跟中美洲議會\n\n11\n00:03:56,693 --> 00:04:04,480\n退出的時候他也拿2758號決議案也就是說中國有2758號決議案的這個到處的這種衍生的話他已經試著用2758號決議案來框架成台灣是屬於中國內政的這個做法\n\n12\n00:04:14,088 --> 00:04:35,302\n那他如果說再去推另外一個決議案的話或許會製造更多的這些紛擾那我們現在正在訪的就是說避免中國在運用2758號決議案的時候是無限的擴大那我們也必須要去結合這些有盟的國家來針對中國所採取針對2758號決議案的這些作為予以反制謝謝委員\n\n13\n00:04:39,784 --> 00:05:01,616\n謝謝部長那所以綜合剛剛部長的這一個盤點那當然我們知道其實中國要發動我們剛剛講的這種投票他會非常的謹慎他必須要在關鍵的時候才會去做這件事情那在這個之前中國想要去循序漸進去推這個框架2758對他很重要那目前以國際我們的這些朋友來講越來越多的動作大家都在宣稱說這個2758號實質的內容其實跟中國講的是不一樣的\n\n14\n00:05:06,038 --> 00:05:30,988\n所以是不是意思就是說外交部會持續的往這個方向來推進畢竟因為這是一個很堅實的一個法律戰沒有錯一點都沒有錯我們也覺得說2758號決議案是一個關鍵那也因為中國成功的在聯合國的這個體系裡面讓聯合國的體系去接受他的這個權勢這個對我們來講是一個很有利的一個狀況很不利的一個狀況\n\n15\n00:05:32,048 --> 00:06:01,324\n那跟我們很有好的像美國等等的這些國家他們目前也看到了2758號決議案被無限擴大的這個狀況也因此我們在這個部分也有更多的合作那除了跟這些有門國家的這個政府進行探討之外其實也有很多重要的這個NGO那個國際的NGO團體他們也在重視這個議題比如像那個GermanMarshallFund他已經出了一篇paper他現在還在寫另外一篇paper\n\n16\n00:06:01,624 --> 00:06:17,725\n那這所看到的就是要讓國際社會去理解到中國在擴張2758號決議案的時候這個是破壞現狀的一個行為這個是在製造對台灣不利的一個行為也是製造區域緊張的一個行為\n\n17\n00:06:18,482 --> 00:06:44,269\n所以2758可以說是一個前哨戰所以我們要守住2758號的一個權勢權其實是非常重要的那我現在想問的就是因為2758號是目前我們現在面臨的狀況我們必須要去捍衛然後去把這個權勢權掌握在我們跟我們的盟友手上但是接下來是如果發生了爭端之後爭端會有這個國際法院等等之類的也就是事後處理這件事情我剛好看到在1月的時候有提到說我們有可能會加入ICC\n\n18\n00:06:45,529 --> 00:06:57,278\n因為除了這一則新聞之外呢並不知道這個後續的狀況是不是可以趁這個時候也跟國人說明一下就是這個國際刑事法院目前推動的這一個狀況是如何還有有沒有可能加入這一方面的問題\n\n19\n00:06:58,987 --> 00:07:18,635\n跟委員很坦誠的報告就是說這個議題有討論但是我們並沒有一個正面的這個結論也就是說在這個申請的過程當中我們很擔心的就是說這個國際組織他對我們的這個詮釋如果對我們更加不利的話\n\n20\n00:07:19,155 --> 00:07:19,375\n沈伯洋議員\n\n21\n00:07:40,956 --> 00:07:44,779\n謝謝,那我們之後再持續追蹤這件事情那還有一個問題就是說因為我們比較常就是剛剛講到的都是跟中國有關的威脅\n\n22\n00:08:03,753 --> 00:08:20,970\n今年這個臺灣民主實驗室我過往創立的這個組織我們的研究員在這個外交家裡面有寫了一篇文章那這篇文章最主要是在盤點俄羅斯現在在輿論戰場在做的事情那我們就發現我稍微快速的過去你看這是俄羅斯的這個帳號\n\n23\n00:08:21,971 --> 00:08:23,592\n臺灣會進一步的軍事化,開始會有挑釁的行為,等等之類的。接下來這一個,他總共有83萬人訂閱,所以其實是蠻大的一個網紅。\n\n24\n00:08:45,167 --> 00:09:12,080\n臺灣發生的戰爭的可能性已經越來越高了這是他們的一個解讀以及說其實我們的新任的即將520就任的總統只有29%的人投給他這其實是一個錯誤的數據這邊已經進入假消息的層次了最後一個就是他們甚至用了一個金門的一個影片是聯合報裡面的一個影片聯合新聞網這個影片就是說金門很多人要回來投票結果我們故意不讓他回來投票\n\n25\n00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:40,009\n所以這些其實都是除了有些陰謀論之外不斷的去告訴大家說美國在背後怎麼支持怎麼煽動然後美國才是邪惡的一方然後以及製造假消息這個已經在俄羅斯世界就是傳開了那這個跟我去年在這個基輔看到的現象有一點類似就是說我在基輔的時候看到有很多假消息是在攻擊台灣那是俄羅斯的網軍所為但是因為在基輔只有三個台灣人所以他不可能一個一個回應\n\n26\n00:09:40,769 --> 00:10:02,428\n所以簡單來講他們選了一個戰場沒有人回應的戰場那我們就會在那邊會節節敗退倒過來講中國在台灣其實也在做一樣的事情就是中國在台灣很喜歡傳烏克蘭相關的謠言說烏克蘭才是挑釁者美國在後面怎麼資助烏克蘭所以才導致了戰爭的爆發那因為台灣的烏克蘭人也不夠多所以他們也不可能一個一個去回應\n\n27\n00:10:03,169 --> 00:10:24,148\n所以現在我們當然這個以前在民間的想法我們會想到說那我們這些國家大家應該要有更強的一個盟友的關係幫交不只是幫交上的關係是交換情資的關係比如說我們讓他知道烏克蘭怎麼在台灣被攻擊他才有機會來幫忙闢謠嘛他們告訴我說台灣怎麼在那邊被攻擊我們才可以過去闢謠所以對於現在這樣的一個機制\n\n28\n00:10:26,510 --> 00:10:27,210\n非常謝謝委員這個問題的確這個也是一個很好去\n\n29\n00:10:52,778 --> 00:11:11,630\n讓我們必須要慎重來思考的一個議題比如說你剛剛講的那個俄羅斯語系的這個地方這個是inaccessibletous那所以在這種情況之下的話要去detect然後要去針對他們去做澄清那我們可能就歷有未待\n\n30\n00:11:12,170 --> 00:11:31,515\n那畢竟在俄羅斯所控制的這個區域或是俄羅斯的語系裡面可能東歐有很多的國家也接受類似的這個訊息所以對我們來講也是必須要去做的功課啦那委員所提出來的確是我們外交部這邊必須要認真來思考的那我們目前在做的也給委員做一下參考\n\n31\n00:11:33,308 --> 00:11:56,863\n我們還沒有走到那個程度但是我們可以從我們現在在做的這個地方來延伸到其他的這個地方就是我們在大選的時候也是受到這些那個選舉的干預那我們覺得說這個議題可能是其他的民主國家也會共同面對的這個議題就是今年會有40個民主選舉可能其他的國家也遭遇類似的這個狀況\n\n32\n00:11:58,104 --> 00:12:25,690\n所以我去結合了我們台灣的這些civicsociety的這些好朋友們讓他們能夠有一些研究的成果然後到美國到加拿大到歐盟他們去做發表去跟其他的重視這個議題的朋友能夠有更多的這種意見交換從這個來互相學習如何來抗衡這個操縱選舉或者是面對那個假訊息攻勢的這個機會\n\n33\n00:12:26,510 --> 00:12:28,311\n主席再給我30秒那可能就不用回應齁我就是快速再問一個問題是跟\n\n34\n00:12:44,060 --> 00:12:53,672\n國民黨的網站在英文版的部分2020是停止更新但是在民主基金會的這個申請上面在2021年還是有申請72萬元的一個預算\n\n35\n00:12:59,599 --> 00:12:59,619\n謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n739\t3681\t謝謝主席 那有請部長 謝謝請吳部長沈委員好部長好 那這個之前在很多的活動場合當中我作為一般的學者接受了很多外交部的幫忙在這邊先跟部長致謝\n24657\t46325\t我在這邊也要非常慎重的說委員在之前那個學術上的表現對我們外交部幫助很多謝謝委員今天這個位置我們還是盡這個立法委員的職責那想要詢問外交部一些事項那大概有三大問題那第一個問題其實還是跟這一個向來最近這個法律戰有關\n47245\t49567\t2012年開始,中國開始包圍黃岩島當時有這個協調,但是他不尊重這個協調的結果所以漸漸地就把它改變這個主權的現狀現在就是圍在那一邊2014年的時候,又有這個國際仲裁法院\n67225\t90898\t海牙法院都已經說這個九段線有違反這個國際海洋公約那中國不承認然後這個裁定的結果所以也導致現在的這些紛爭那2013年這個美國國防部報告也再次提出來就是中國會不斷地用這樣的一些手法去製造新常態或者新的法律的現狀然後不斷地來跟我們argue所以這當然是一個我們現在面臨的一個狀況\n91898\t117451\t所以這陣子我們稍微盤點了一下那剛好也有很多的學者在盤點這個情勢就是說我們接下來會遇到的狀況大概會有這三個那第一個就是他還是要重新框架這個兩岸的關係這個是自然那第二個應該是部長最熟悉的他會不斷的壓縮我們國際上的空間然後以及利用國際法的這個模糊地帶去破壞我們台灣任何獨立自覺的這種法律基礎\n118792\t146028\t今天想要問部長的呢因為第二個跟第三個部分稍微比較遠一點所以想要詢問的是第一個就是重新框架兩岸關係因為現在呢說真的以中國在世界各國的這一個動向以及他在國際組織的這一個權力以及他的network來看我們比較懼怕的是說呢假設今天在台海發生了任何的紛爭或者甚至發生了戰爭那在這樣的一個狀況之下呢他去發動任何形式的投票\n148170\t158721\t臺灣到底是不是中國的一部分以現在國際上的評估來講我們要贏下這個投票應該不是很容易這是可能會面臨的狀況不知道現在部長面對這個未來可能的狀況目前的評估可能解決的方案會是什麼\n166751\t191457\t非常謝謝委員提出來這個問題當然這是一個很好的假設那如果說要讓這個假設成真的話可能必須要有一些條件那我在看來這個條件大概還不到說馬上會成真的這個地步那其實在還沒有去推中國的這些條件之前其實他已經有其他的這個替代的這個方式\n191917\t192317\t李卓人議員\n208532\t235232\t不只是讓聯合國以及聯合國體系去接受2758號決議案中國的這個權勢權勢成為一個中國原則權勢成為台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分而且在很多的這些國際的活動國際的組織或者是涉及到台灣的邦交他都拿2758號決議案來說比如像我們跟諾魯端交他就拿出2758號決議案比如說我們跟中美洲議會\n236693\t244480\t退出的時候他也拿2758號決議案也就是說中國有2758號決議案的這個到處的這種衍生的話他已經試著用2758號決議案來框架成台灣是屬於中國內政的這個做法\n254088\t275302\t那他如果說再去推另外一個決議案的話或許會製造更多的這些紛擾那我們現在正在訪的就是說避免中國在運用2758號決議案的時候是無限的擴大那我們也必須要去結合這些有盟的國家來針對中國所採取針對2758號決議案的這些作為予以反制謝謝委員\n279784\t301616\t謝謝部長那所以綜合剛剛部長的這一個盤點那當然我們知道其實中國要發動我們剛剛講的這種投票他會非常的謹慎他必須要在關鍵的時候才會去做這件事情那在這個之前中國想要去循序漸進去推這個框架2758對他很重要那目前以國際我們的這些朋友來講越來越多的動作大家都在宣稱說這個2758號實質的內容其實跟中國講的是不一樣的\n306038\t330988\t所以是不是意思就是說外交部會持續的往這個方向來推進畢竟因為這是一個很堅實的一個法律戰沒有錯一點都沒有錯我們也覺得說2758號決議案是一個關鍵那也因為中國成功的在聯合國的這個體系裡面讓聯合國的體系去接受他的這個權勢這個對我們來講是一個很有利的一個狀況很不利的一個狀況\n332048\t361324\t那跟我們很有好的像美國等等的這些國家他們目前也看到了2758號決議案被無限擴大的這個狀況也因此我們在這個部分也有更多的合作那除了跟這些有門國家的這個政府進行探討之外其實也有很多重要的這個NGO那個國際的NGO團體他們也在重視這個議題比如像那個German Marshall Fund他已經出了一篇paper他現在還在寫另外一篇paper\n361624\t377725\t那這所看到的就是要讓國際社會去理解到中國在擴張2758號決議案的時候這個是破壞現狀的一個行為這個是在製造對台灣不利的一個行為也是製造區域緊張的一個行為\n378482\t404269\t所以2758可以說是一個前哨戰所以我們要守住2758號的一個權勢權其實是非常重要的那我現在想問的就是因為2758號是目前我們現在面臨的狀況我們必須要去捍衛然後去把這個權勢權掌握在我們跟我們的盟友手上但是接下來是如果發生了爭端之後爭端會有這個國際法院等等之類的也就是事後處理這件事情我剛好看到在1月的時候有提到說我們有可能會加入ICC\n405529\t417278\t因為除了這一則新聞之外呢並不知道這個後續的狀況是不是可以趁這個時候也跟國人說明一下就是這個國際刑事法院目前推動的這一個狀況是如何還有有沒有可能加入這一方面的問題\n418987\t438635\t跟委員很坦誠的報告就是說這個議題有討論但是我們並沒有一個正面的這個結論也就是說在這個申請的過程當中我們很擔心的就是說這個國際組織他對我們的這個詮釋如果對我們更加不利的話\n439155\t439375\t沈伯洋議員\n460956\t464779\t謝謝,那我們之後再持續追蹤這件事情那還有一個問題就是說因為我們比較常就是剛剛講到的都是跟中國有關的威脅\n483753\t500970\t今年這個臺灣民主實驗室我過往創立的這個組織我們的研究員在這個外交家裡面有寫了一篇文章那這篇文章最主要是在盤點俄羅斯現在在輿論戰場在做的事情那我們就發現我稍微快速的過去你看這是俄羅斯的這個帳號\n501971\t503592\t臺灣會進一步的軍事化,開始會有挑釁的行為,等等之類的。接下來這一個,他總共有83萬人訂閱,所以其實是蠻大的一個網紅。\n525167\t552080\t臺灣發生的戰爭的可能性已經越來越高了這是他們的一個解讀以及說其實我們的新任的即將520就任的總統只有29%的人投給他這其實是一個錯誤的數據這邊已經進入假消息的層次了最後一個就是他們甚至用了一個金門的一個影片是聯合報裡面的一個影片聯合新聞網這個影片就是說金門很多人要回來投票結果我們故意不讓他回來投票\n552680\t580009\t所以這些其實都是除了有些陰謀論之外不斷的去告訴大家說美國在背後怎麼支持怎麼煽動然後美國才是邪惡的一方然後以及製造假消息這個已經在俄羅斯世界就是傳開了那這個跟我去年在這個基輔看到的現象有一點類似就是說我在基輔的時候看到有很多假消息是在攻擊台灣那是俄羅斯的網軍所為但是因為在基輔只有三個台灣人所以他不可能一個一個回應\n580769\t602428\t所以簡單來講他們選了一個戰場沒有人回應的戰場那我們就會在那邊會節節敗退倒過來講中國在台灣其實也在做一樣的事情就是中國在台灣很喜歡傳烏克蘭相關的謠言說烏克蘭才是挑釁者美國在後面怎麼資助烏克蘭所以才導致了戰爭的爆發那因為台灣的烏克蘭人也不夠多所以他們也不可能一個一個去回應\n603169\t624148\t所以現在我們當然這個以前在民間的想法我們會想到說那我們這些國家大家應該要有更強的一個盟友的關係幫交不只是幫交上的關係是交換情資的關係比如說我們讓他知道烏克蘭怎麼在台灣被攻擊他才有機會來幫忙闢謠嘛他們告訴我說台灣怎麼在那邊被攻擊我們才可以過去闢謠所以對於現在這樣的一個機制\n626510\t627210\t非常謝謝委員這個問題的確這個也是一個很好去\n652778\t671630\t讓我們必須要慎重來思考的一個議題比如說你剛剛講的那個俄羅斯語系的這個地方這個是 inaccessible to us那所以在這種情況之下的話要去detect然後要去針對他們去做澄清那我們可能就歷有未待\n672170\t691515\t那畢竟在俄羅斯所控制的這個區域或是俄羅斯的語系裡面可能東歐有很多的國家也接受類似的這個訊息所以對我們來講也是必須要去做的功課啦那委員所提出來的確是我們外交部這邊必須要認真來思考的那我們目前在做的也給委員做一下參考\n693308\t716863\t我們還沒有走到那個程度但是我們可以從我們現在在做的這個地方來延伸到其他的這個地方就是我們在大選的時候也是受到這些那個選舉的干預那我們覺得說這個議題可能是其他的民主國家也會共同面對的這個議題就是今年會有40個民主選舉可能其他的國家也遭遇類似的這個狀況\n718104\t745690\t所以我去結合了我們台灣的這些 civic society 的這些好朋友們讓他們能夠有一些研究的成果然後到美國到加拿大到歐盟他們去做發表去跟其他的重視這個議題的朋友能夠有更多的這種意見交換從這個來互相學習如何來抗衡這個操縱選舉或者是面對那個假訊息攻勢的這個機會\n746510\t748311\t主席再給我30秒那可能就不用回應齁我就是快速再問一個問題是跟\n764060\t773672\t國民黨的網站在英文版的部分2020是停止更新但是在民主基金會的這個申請上面在2021年還是有申請72萬元的一個預算\n779599\t779619\t謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 那有請部長 謝謝請吳部長沈委員好部長好 那這個之前在很多的活動場合當中我作為一般的學者接受了很多外交部的幫忙在這邊先跟部長致謝\n我在這邊也要非常慎重的說委員在之前那個學術上的表現對我們外交部幫助很多謝謝委員今天這個位置我們還是盡這個立法委員的職責那想要詢問外交部一些事項那大概有三大問題那第一個問題其實還是跟這一個向來最近這個法律戰有關\n2012年開始,中國開始包圍黃岩島當時有這個協調,但是他不尊重這個協調的結果所以漸漸地就把它改變這個主權的現狀現在就是圍在那一邊2014年的時候,又有這個國際仲裁法院\n海牙法院都已經說這個九段線有違反這個國際海洋公約那中國不承認然後這個裁定的結果所以也導致現在的這些紛爭那2013年這個美國國防部報告也再次提出來就是中國會不斷地用這樣的一些手法去製造新常態或者新的法律的現狀然後不斷地來跟我們argue所以這當然是一個我們現在面臨的一個狀況\n所以這陣子我們稍微盤點了一下那剛好也有很多的學者在盤點這個情勢就是說我們接下來會遇到的狀況大概會有這三個那第一個就是他還是要重新框架這個兩岸的關係這個是自然那第二個應該是部長最熟悉的他會不斷的壓縮我們國際上的空間然後以及利用國際法的這個模糊地帶去破壞我們台灣任何獨立自覺的這種法律基礎\n今天想要問部長的呢因為第二個跟第三個部分稍微比較遠一點所以想要詢問的是第一個就是重新框架兩岸關係因為現在呢說真的以中國在世界各國的這一個動向以及他在國際組織的這一個權力以及他的network來看我們比較懼怕的是說呢假設今天在台海發生了任何的紛爭或者甚至發生了戰爭那在這樣的一個狀況之下呢他去發動任何形式的投票\n臺灣到底是不是中國的一部分以現在國際上的評估來講我們要贏下這個投票應該不是很容易這是可能會面臨的狀況不知道現在部長面對這個未來可能的狀況目前的評估可能解決的方案會是什麼\n非常謝謝委員提出來這個問題當然這是一個很好的假設那如果說要讓這個假設成真的話可能必須要有一些條件那我在看來這個條件大概還不到說馬上會成真的這個地步那其實在還沒有去推中國的這些條件之前其實他已經有其他的這個替代的這個方式\n李卓人議員\n不只是讓聯合國以及聯合國體系去接受2758號決議案中國的這個權勢權勢成為一個中國原則權勢成為台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分而且在很多的這些國際的活動國際的組織或者是涉及到台灣的邦交他都拿2758號決議案來說比如像我們跟諾魯端交他就拿出2758號決議案比如說我們跟中美洲議會\n退出的時候他也拿2758號決議案也就是說中國有2758號決議案的這個到處的這種衍生的話他已經試著用2758號決議案來框架成台灣是屬於中國內政的這個做法\n那他如果說再去推另外一個決議案的話或許會製造更多的這些紛擾那我們現在正在訪的就是說避免中國在運用2758號決議案的時候是無限的擴大那我們也必須要去結合這些有盟的國家來針對中國所採取針對2758號決議案的這些作為予以反制謝謝委員\n謝謝部長那所以綜合剛剛部長的這一個盤點那當然我們知道其實中國要發動我們剛剛講的這種投票他會非常的謹慎他必須要在關鍵的時候才會去做這件事情那在這個之前中國想要去循序漸進去推這個框架2758對他很重要那目前以國際我們的這些朋友來講越來越多的動作大家都在宣稱說這個2758號實質的內容其實跟中國講的是不一樣的\n所以是不是意思就是說外交部會持續的往這個方向來推進畢竟因為這是一個很堅實的一個法律戰沒有錯一點都沒有錯我們也覺得說2758號決議案是一個關鍵那也因為中國成功的在聯合國的這個體系裡面讓聯合國的體系去接受他的這個權勢這個對我們來講是一個很有利的一個狀況很不利的一個狀況\n那跟我們很有好的像美國等等的這些國家他們目前也看到了2758號決議案被無限擴大的這個狀況也因此我們在這個部分也有更多的合作那除了跟這些有門國家的這個政府進行探討之外其實也有很多重要的這個NGO那個國際的NGO團體他們也在重視這個議題比如像那個German Marshall Fund他已經出了一篇paper他現在還在寫另外一篇paper\n那這所看到的就是要讓國際社會去理解到中國在擴張2758號決議案的時候這個是破壞現狀的一個行為這個是在製造對台灣不利的一個行為也是製造區域緊張的一個行為\n所以2758可以說是一個前哨戰所以我們要守住2758號的一個權勢權其實是非常重要的那我現在想問的就是因為2758號是目前我們現在面臨的狀況我們必須要去捍衛然後去把這個權勢權掌握在我們跟我們的盟友手上但是接下來是如果發生了爭端之後爭端會有這個國際法院等等之類的也就是事後處理這件事情我剛好看到在1月的時候有提到說我們有可能會加入ICC\n因為除了這一則新聞之外呢並不知道這個後續的狀況是不是可以趁這個時候也跟國人說明一下就是這個國際刑事法院目前推動的這一個狀況是如何還有有沒有可能加入這一方面的問題\n跟委員很坦誠的報告就是說這個議題有討論但是我們並沒有一個正面的這個結論也就是說在這個申請的過程當中我們很擔心的就是說這個國際組織他對我們的這個詮釋如果對我們更加不利的話\n沈伯洋議員\n謝謝,那我們之後再持續追蹤這件事情那還有一個問題就是說因為我們比較常就是剛剛講到的都是跟中國有關的威脅\n今年這個臺灣民主實驗室我過往創立的這個組織我們的研究員在這個外交家裡面有寫了一篇文章那這篇文章最主要是在盤點俄羅斯現在在輿論戰場在做的事情那我們就發現我稍微快速的過去你看這是俄羅斯的這個帳號\n臺灣會進一步的軍事化,開始會有挑釁的行為,等等之類的。接下來這一個,他總共有83萬人訂閱,所以其實是蠻大的一個網紅。\n臺灣發生的戰爭的可能性已經越來越高了這是他們的一個解讀以及說其實我們的新任的即將520就任的總統只有29%的人投給他這其實是一個錯誤的數據這邊已經進入假消息的層次了最後一個就是他們甚至用了一個金門的一個影片是聯合報裡面的一個影片聯合新聞網這個影片就是說金門很多人要回來投票結果我們故意不讓他回來投票\n所以這些其實都是除了有些陰謀論之外不斷的去告訴大家說美國在背後怎麼支持怎麼煽動然後美國才是邪惡的一方然後以及製造假消息這個已經在俄羅斯世界就是傳開了那這個跟我去年在這個基輔看到的現象有一點類似就是說我在基輔的時候看到有很多假消息是在攻擊台灣那是俄羅斯的網軍所為但是因為在基輔只有三個台灣人所以他不可能一個一個回應\n所以簡單來講他們選了一個戰場沒有人回應的戰場那我們就會在那邊會節節敗退倒過來講中國在台灣其實也在做一樣的事情就是中國在台灣很喜歡傳烏克蘭相關的謠言說烏克蘭才是挑釁者美國在後面怎麼資助烏克蘭所以才導致了戰爭的爆發那因為台灣的烏克蘭人也不夠多所以他們也不可能一個一個去回應\n所以現在我們當然這個以前在民間的想法我們會想到說那我們這些國家大家應該要有更強的一個盟友的關係幫交不只是幫交上的關係是交換情資的關係比如說我們讓他知道烏克蘭怎麼在台灣被攻擊他才有機會來幫忙闢謠嘛他們告訴我說台灣怎麼在那邊被攻擊我們才可以過去闢謠所以對於現在這樣的一個機制\n非常謝謝委員這個問題的確這個也是一個很好去\n讓我們必須要慎重來思考的一個議題比如說你剛剛講的那個俄羅斯語系的這個地方這個是 inaccessible to us那所以在這種情況之下的話要去detect然後要去針對他們去做澄清那我們可能就歷有未待\n那畢竟在俄羅斯所控制的這個區域或是俄羅斯的語系裡面可能東歐有很多的國家也接受類似的這個訊息所以對我們來講也是必須要去做的功課啦那委員所提出來的確是我們外交部這邊必須要認真來思考的那我們目前在做的也給委員做一下參考\n我們還沒有走到那個程度但是我們可以從我們現在在做的這個地方來延伸到其他的這個地方就是我們在大選的時候也是受到這些那個選舉的干預那我們覺得說這個議題可能是其他的民主國家也會共同面對的這個議題就是今年會有40個民主選舉可能其他的國家也遭遇類似的這個狀況\n所以我去結合了我們台灣的這些 civic society 的這些好朋友們讓他們能夠有一些研究的成果然後到美國到加拿大到歐盟他們去做發表去跟其他的重視這個議題的朋友能夠有更多的這種意見交換從這個來互相學習如何來抗衡這個操縱選舉或者是面對那個假訊息攻勢的這個機會\n主席再給我30秒那可能就不用回應齁我就是快速再問一個問題是跟\n國民黨的網站在英文版的部分2020是停止更新但是在民主基金會的這個申請上面在2021年還是有申請72萬元的一個預算\n謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.739 --> 00:03.681\n謝謝主席那有請部長謝謝請吳部長沈委員好部長好那這個之前在很多的活動場合當中我作為一般的學者接受了很多外交部的幫忙在這邊先跟部長致謝\n\n00:24.657 --> 00:46.325\n我在這邊也要非常慎重的說委員在之前那個學術上的表現對我們外交部幫助很多謝謝委員今天這個位置我們還是盡這個立法委員的職責那想要詢問外交部一些事項那大概有三大問題那第一個問題其實還是跟這一個向來最近這個法律戰有關\n\n00:47.245 --> 00:49.567\n2012年開始,中國開始包圍黃岩島當時有這個協調,但是他不尊重這個協調的結果所以漸漸地就把它改變這個主權的現狀現在就是圍在那一邊2014年的時候,又有這個國際仲裁法院\n\n01:07.225 --> 01:30.898\n海牙法院都已經說這個九段線有違反這個國際海洋公約那中國不承認然後這個裁定的結果所以也導致現在的這些紛爭那2013年這個美國國防部報告也再次提出來就是中國會不斷地用這樣的一些手法去製造新常態或者新的法律的現狀然後不斷地來跟我們argue所以這當然是一個我們現在面臨的一個狀況\n\n01:31.898 --> 01:57.451\n所以這陣子我們稍微盤點了一下那剛好也有很多的學者在盤點這個情勢就是說我們接下來會遇到的狀況大概會有這三個那第一個就是他還是要重新框架這個兩岸的關係這個是自然那第二個應該是部長最熟悉的他會不斷的壓縮我們國際上的空間然後以及利用國際法的這個模糊地帶去破壞我們台灣任何獨立自覺的這種法律基礎\n\n01:58.792 --> 02:26.028\n今天想要問部長的呢因為第二個跟第三個部分稍微比較遠一點所以想要詢問的是第一個就是重新框架兩岸關係因為現在呢說真的以中國在世界各國的這一個動向以及他在國際組織的這一個權力以及他的network來看我們比較懼怕的是說呢假設今天在台海發生了任何的紛爭或者甚至發生了戰爭那在這樣的一個狀況之下呢他去發動任何形式的投票\n\n02:28.170 --> 02:38.721\n臺灣到底是不是中國的一部分以現在國際上的評估來講我們要贏下這個投票應該不是很容易這是可能會面臨的狀況不知道現在部長面對這個未來可能的狀況目前的評估可能解決的方案會是什麼\n\n02:46.751 --> 03:11.457\n非常謝謝委員提出來這個問題當然這是一個很好的假設那如果說要讓這個假設成真的話可能必須要有一些條件那我在看來這個條件大概還不到說馬上會成真的這個地步那其實在還沒有去推中國的這些條件之前其實他已經有其他的這個替代的這個方式\n\n03:11.917 --> 03:12.317\n李卓人議員\n\n03:28.532 --> 03:55.232\n不只是讓聯合國以及聯合國體系去接受2758號決議案中國的這個權勢權勢成為一個中國原則權勢成為台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分而且在很多的這些國際的活動國際的組織或者是涉及到台灣的邦交他都拿2758號決議案來說比如像我們跟諾魯端交他就拿出2758號決議案比如說我們跟中美洲議會\n\n03:56.693 --> 04:04.480\n退出的時候他也拿2758號決議案也就是說中國有2758號決議案的這個到處的這種衍生的話他已經試著用2758號決議案來框架成台灣是屬於中國內政的這個做法\n\n04:14.088 --> 04:35.302\n那他如果說再去推另外一個決議案的話或許會製造更多的這些紛擾那我們現在正在訪的就是說避免中國在運用2758號決議案的時候是無限的擴大那我們也必須要去結合這些有盟的國家來針對中國所採取針對2758號決議案的這些作為予以反制謝謝委員\n\n04:39.784 --> 05:01.616\n謝謝部長那所以綜合剛剛部長的這一個盤點那當然我們知道其實中國要發動我們剛剛講的這種投票他會非常的謹慎他必須要在關鍵的時候才會去做這件事情那在這個之前中國想要去循序漸進去推這個框架2758對他很重要那目前以國際我們的這些朋友來講越來越多的動作大家都在宣稱說這個2758號實質的內容其實跟中國講的是不一樣的\n\n05:06.038 --> 05:30.988\n所以是不是意思就是說外交部會持續的往這個方向來推進畢竟因為這是一個很堅實的一個法律戰沒有錯一點都沒有錯我們也覺得說2758號決議案是一個關鍵那也因為中國成功的在聯合國的這個體系裡面讓聯合國的體系去接受他的這個權勢這個對我們來講是一個很有利的一個狀況很不利的一個狀況\n\n05:32.048 --> 06:01.324\n那跟我們很有好的像美國等等的這些國家他們目前也看到了2758號決議案被無限擴大的這個狀況也因此我們在這個部分也有更多的合作那除了跟這些有門國家的這個政府進行探討之外其實也有很多重要的這個NGO那個國際的NGO團體他們也在重視這個議題比如像那個GermanMarshallFund他已經出了一篇paper他現在還在寫另外一篇paper\n\n06:01.624 --> 06:17.725\n那這所看到的就是要讓國際社會去理解到中國在擴張2758號決議案的時候這個是破壞現狀的一個行為這個是在製造對台灣不利的一個行為也是製造區域緊張的一個行為\n\n06:18.482 --> 06:44.269\n所以2758可以說是一個前哨戰所以我們要守住2758號的一個權勢權其實是非常重要的那我現在想問的就是因為2758號是目前我們現在面臨的狀況我們必須要去捍衛然後去把這個權勢權掌握在我們跟我們的盟友手上但是接下來是如果發生了爭端之後爭端會有這個國際法院等等之類的也就是事後處理這件事情我剛好看到在1月的時候有提到說我們有可能會加入ICC\n\n06:45.529 --> 06:57.278\n因為除了這一則新聞之外呢並不知道這個後續的狀況是不是可以趁這個時候也跟國人說明一下就是這個國際刑事法院目前推動的這一個狀況是如何還有有沒有可能加入這一方面的問題\n\n06:58.987 --> 07:18.635\n跟委員很坦誠的報告就是說這個議題有討論但是我們並沒有一個正面的這個結論也就是說在這個申請的過程當中我們很擔心的就是說這個國際組織他對我們的這個詮釋如果對我們更加不利的話\n\n07:19.155 --> 07:19.375\n沈伯洋議員\n\n07:40.956 --> 07:44.779\n謝謝,那我們之後再持續追蹤這件事情那還有一個問題就是說因為我們比較常就是剛剛講到的都是跟中國有關的威脅\n\n08:03.753 --> 08:20.970\n今年這個臺灣民主實驗室我過往創立的這個組織我們的研究員在這個外交家裡面有寫了一篇文章那這篇文章最主要是在盤點俄羅斯現在在輿論戰場在做的事情那我們就發現我稍微快速的過去你看這是俄羅斯的這個帳號\n\n08:21.971 --> 08:23.592\n臺灣會進一步的軍事化,開始會有挑釁的行為,等等之類的。接下來這一個,他總共有83萬人訂閱,所以其實是蠻大的一個網紅。\n\n08:45.167 --> 09:12.080\n臺灣發生的戰爭的可能性已經越來越高了這是他們的一個解讀以及說其實我們的新任的即將520就任的總統只有29%的人投給他這其實是一個錯誤的數據這邊已經進入假消息的層次了最後一個就是他們甚至用了一個金門的一個影片是聯合報裡面的一個影片聯合新聞網這個影片就是說金門很多人要回來投票結果我們故意不讓他回來投票\n\n09:12.680 --> 09:40.009\n所以這些其實都是除了有些陰謀論之外不斷的去告訴大家說美國在背後怎麼支持怎麼煽動然後美國才是邪惡的一方然後以及製造假消息這個已經在俄羅斯世界就是傳開了那這個跟我去年在這個基輔看到的現象有一點類似就是說我在基輔的時候看到有很多假消息是在攻擊台灣那是俄羅斯的網軍所為但是因為在基輔只有三個台灣人所以他不可能一個一個回應\n\n09:40.769 --> 10:02.428\n所以簡單來講他們選了一個戰場沒有人回應的戰場那我們就會在那邊會節節敗退倒過來講中國在台灣其實也在做一樣的事情就是中國在台灣很喜歡傳烏克蘭相關的謠言說烏克蘭才是挑釁者美國在後面怎麼資助烏克蘭所以才導致了戰爭的爆發那因為台灣的烏克蘭人也不夠多所以他們也不可能一個一個去回應\n\n10:03.169 --> 10:24.148\n所以現在我們當然這個以前在民間的想法我們會想到說那我們這些國家大家應該要有更強的一個盟友的關係幫交不只是幫交上的關係是交換情資的關係比如說我們讓他知道烏克蘭怎麼在台灣被攻擊他才有機會來幫忙闢謠嘛他們告訴我說台灣怎麼在那邊被攻擊我們才可以過去闢謠所以對於現在這樣的一個機制\n\n10:26.510 --> 10:27.210\n非常謝謝委員這個問題的確這個也是一個很好去\n\n10:52.778 --> 11:11.630\n讓我們必須要慎重來思考的一個議題比如說你剛剛講的那個俄羅斯語系的這個地方這個是inaccessibletous那所以在這種情況之下的話要去detect然後要去針對他們去做澄清那我們可能就歷有未待\n\n11:12.170 --> 11:31.515\n那畢竟在俄羅斯所控制的這個區域或是俄羅斯的語系裡面可能東歐有很多的國家也接受類似的這個訊息所以對我們來講也是必須要去做的功課啦那委員所提出來的確是我們外交部這邊必須要認真來思考的那我們目前在做的也給委員做一下參考\n\n11:33.308 --> 11:56.863\n我們還沒有走到那個程度但是我們可以從我們現在在做的這個地方來延伸到其他的這個地方就是我們在大選的時候也是受到這些那個選舉的干預那我們覺得說這個議題可能是其他的民主國家也會共同面對的這個議題就是今年會有40個民主選舉可能其他的國家也遭遇類似的這個狀況\n\n11:58.104 --> 12:25.690\n所以我去結合了我們台灣的這些civicsociety的這些好朋友們讓他們能夠有一些研究的成果然後到美國到加拿大到歐盟他們去做發表去跟其他的重視這個議題的朋友能夠有更多的這種意見交換從這個來互相學習如何來抗衡這個操縱選舉或者是面對那個假訊息攻勢的這個機會\n\n12:26.510 --> 12:28.311\n主席再給我30秒那可能就不用回應齁我就是快速再問一個問題是跟\n\n12:44.060 --> 12:53.672\n國民黨的網站在英文版的部分2020是停止更新但是在民主基金會的這個申請上面在2021年還是有申請72萬元的一個預算\n\n12:59.599 --> 12:59.619\n謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.739,"end":3.681,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請部長 謝謝請吳部長沈委員好部長好 那這個之前在很多的活動場合當中我作為一般的學者接受了很多外交部的幫忙在這邊先跟部長致謝"},{"start":24.657,"end":46.325,"text":"我在這邊也要非常慎重的說委員在之前那個學術上的表現對我們外交部幫助很多謝謝委員今天這個位置我們還是盡這個立法委員的職責那想要詢問外交部一些事項那大概有三大問題那第一個問題其實還是跟這一個向來最近這個法律戰有關"},{"start":47.245,"end":49.567,"text":"2012年開始,中國開始包圍黃岩島當時有這個協調,但是他不尊重這個協調的結果所以漸漸地就把它改變這個主權的現狀現在就是圍在那一邊2014年的時候,又有這個國際仲裁法院"},{"start":67.225,"end":90.898,"text":"海牙法院都已經說這個九段線有違反這個國際海洋公約那中國不承認然後這個裁定的結果所以也導致現在的這些紛爭那2013年這個美國國防部報告也再次提出來就是中國會不斷地用這樣的一些手法去製造新常態或者新的法律的現狀然後不斷地來跟我們argue所以這當然是一個我們現在面臨的一個狀況"},{"start":91.898,"end":117.451,"text":"所以這陣子我們稍微盤點了一下那剛好也有很多的學者在盤點這個情勢就是說我們接下來會遇到的狀況大概會有這三個那第一個就是他還是要重新框架這個兩岸的關係這個是自然那第二個應該是部長最熟悉的他會不斷的壓縮我們國際上的空間然後以及利用國際法的這個模糊地帶去破壞我們台灣任何獨立自覺的這種法律基礎"},{"start":118.792,"end":146.028,"text":"今天想要問部長的呢因為第二個跟第三個部分稍微比較遠一點所以想要詢問的是第一個就是重新框架兩岸關係因為現在呢說真的以中國在世界各國的這一個動向以及他在國際組織的這一個權力以及他的network來看我們比較懼怕的是說呢假設今天在台海發生了任何的紛爭或者甚至發生了戰爭那在這樣的一個狀況之下呢他去發動任何形式的投票"},{"start":148.17,"end":158.721,"text":"臺灣到底是不是中國的一部分以現在國際上的評估來講我們要贏下這個投票應該不是很容易這是可能會面臨的狀況不知道現在部長面對這個未來可能的狀況目前的評估可能解決的方案會是什麼"},{"start":166.751,"end":191.457,"text":"非常謝謝委員提出來這個問題當然這是一個很好的假設那如果說要讓這個假設成真的話可能必須要有一些條件那我在看來這個條件大概還不到說馬上會成真的這個地步那其實在還沒有去推中國的這些條件之前其實他已經有其他的這個替代的這個方式"},{"start":191.917,"end":192.317,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":208.532,"end":235.232,"text":"不只是讓聯合國以及聯合國體系去接受2758號決議案中國的這個權勢權勢成為一個中國原則權勢成為台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分而且在很多的這些國際的活動國際的組織或者是涉及到台灣的邦交他都拿2758號決議案來說比如像我們跟諾魯端交他就拿出2758號決議案比如說我們跟中美洲議會"},{"start":236.693,"end":244.48,"text":"退出的時候他也拿2758號決議案也就是說中國有2758號決議案的這個到處的這種衍生的話他已經試著用2758號決議案來框架成台灣是屬於中國內政的這個做法"},{"start":254.088,"end":275.302,"text":"那他如果說再去推另外一個決議案的話或許會製造更多的這些紛擾那我們現在正在訪的就是說避免中國在運用2758號決議案的時候是無限的擴大那我們也必須要去結合這些有盟的國家來針對中國所採取針對2758號決議案的這些作為予以反制謝謝委員"},{"start":279.784,"end":301.616,"text":"謝謝部長那所以綜合剛剛部長的這一個盤點那當然我們知道其實中國要發動我們剛剛講的這種投票他會非常的謹慎他必須要在關鍵的時候才會去做這件事情那在這個之前中國想要去循序漸進去推這個框架2758對他很重要那目前以國際我們的這些朋友來講越來越多的動作大家都在宣稱說這個2758號實質的內容其實跟中國講的是不一樣的"},{"start":306.038,"end":330.988,"text":"所以是不是意思就是說外交部會持續的往這個方向來推進畢竟因為這是一個很堅實的一個法律戰沒有錯一點都沒有錯我們也覺得說2758號決議案是一個關鍵那也因為中國成功的在聯合國的這個體系裡面讓聯合國的體系去接受他的這個權勢這個對我們來講是一個很有利的一個狀況很不利的一個狀況"},{"start":332.048,"end":361.324,"text":"那跟我們很有好的像美國等等的這些國家他們目前也看到了2758號決議案被無限擴大的這個狀況也因此我們在這個部分也有更多的合作那除了跟這些有門國家的這個政府進行探討之外其實也有很多重要的這個NGO那個國際的NGO團體他們也在重視這個議題比如像那個German Marshall Fund他已經出了一篇paper他現在還在寫另外一篇paper"},{"start":361.624,"end":377.725,"text":"那這所看到的就是要讓國際社會去理解到中國在擴張2758號決議案的時候這個是破壞現狀的一個行為這個是在製造對台灣不利的一個行為也是製造區域緊張的一個行為"},{"start":378.482,"end":404.269,"text":"所以2758可以說是一個前哨戰所以我們要守住2758號的一個權勢權其實是非常重要的那我現在想問的就是因為2758號是目前我們現在面臨的狀況我們必須要去捍衛然後去把這個權勢權掌握在我們跟我們的盟友手上但是接下來是如果發生了爭端之後爭端會有這個國際法院等等之類的也就是事後處理這件事情我剛好看到在1月的時候有提到說我們有可能會加入ICC"},{"start":405.529,"end":417.278,"text":"因為除了這一則新聞之外呢並不知道這個後續的狀況是不是可以趁這個時候也跟國人說明一下就是這個國際刑事法院目前推動的這一個狀況是如何還有有沒有可能加入這一方面的問題"},{"start":418.987,"end":438.635,"text":"跟委員很坦誠的報告就是說這個議題有討論但是我們並沒有一個正面的這個結論也就是說在這個申請的過程當中我們很擔心的就是說這個國際組織他對我們的這個詮釋如果對我們更加不利的話"},{"start":439.155,"end":439.375,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":460.956,"end":464.779,"text":"謝謝,那我們之後再持續追蹤這件事情那還有一個問題就是說因為我們比較常就是剛剛講到的都是跟中國有關的威脅"},{"start":483.753,"end":500.97,"text":"今年這個臺灣民主實驗室我過往創立的這個組織我們的研究員在這個外交家裡面有寫了一篇文章那這篇文章最主要是在盤點俄羅斯現在在輿論戰場在做的事情那我們就發現我稍微快速的過去你看這是俄羅斯的這個帳號"},{"start":501.971,"end":503.592,"text":"臺灣會進一步的軍事化,開始會有挑釁的行為,等等之類的。接下來這一個,他總共有83萬人訂閱,所以其實是蠻大的一個網紅。"},{"start":525.167,"end":552.08,"text":"臺灣發生的戰爭的可能性已經越來越高了這是他們的一個解讀以及說其實我們的新任的即將520就任的總統只有29%的人投給他這其實是一個錯誤的數據這邊已經進入假消息的層次了最後一個就是他們甚至用了一個金門的一個影片是聯合報裡面的一個影片聯合新聞網這個影片就是說金門很多人要回來投票結果我們故意不讓他回來投票"},{"start":552.68,"end":580.009,"text":"所以這些其實都是除了有些陰謀論之外不斷的去告訴大家說美國在背後怎麼支持怎麼煽動然後美國才是邪惡的一方然後以及製造假消息這個已經在俄羅斯世界就是傳開了那這個跟我去年在這個基輔看到的現象有一點類似就是說我在基輔的時候看到有很多假消息是在攻擊台灣那是俄羅斯的網軍所為但是因為在基輔只有三個台灣人所以他不可能一個一個回應"},{"start":580.769,"end":602.428,"text":"所以簡單來講他們選了一個戰場沒有人回應的戰場那我們就會在那邊會節節敗退倒過來講中國在台灣其實也在做一樣的事情就是中國在台灣很喜歡傳烏克蘭相關的謠言說烏克蘭才是挑釁者美國在後面怎麼資助烏克蘭所以才導致了戰爭的爆發那因為台灣的烏克蘭人也不夠多所以他們也不可能一個一個去回應"},{"start":603.169,"end":624.148,"text":"所以現在我們當然這個以前在民間的想法我們會想到說那我們這些國家大家應該要有更強的一個盟友的關係幫交不只是幫交上的關係是交換情資的關係比如說我們讓他知道烏克蘭怎麼在台灣被攻擊他才有機會來幫忙闢謠嘛他們告訴我說台灣怎麼在那邊被攻擊我們才可以過去闢謠所以對於現在這樣的一個機制"},{"start":626.51,"end":627.21,"text":"非常謝謝委員這個問題的確這個也是一個很好去"},{"start":652.778,"end":671.63,"text":"讓我們必須要慎重來思考的一個議題比如說你剛剛講的那個俄羅斯語系的這個地方這個是 inaccessible to us那所以在這種情況之下的話要去detect然後要去針對他們去做澄清那我們可能就歷有未待"},{"start":672.17,"end":691.515,"text":"那畢竟在俄羅斯所控制的這個區域或是俄羅斯的語系裡面可能東歐有很多的國家也接受類似的這個訊息所以對我們來講也是必須要去做的功課啦那委員所提出來的確是我們外交部這邊必須要認真來思考的那我們目前在做的也給委員做一下參考"},{"start":693.308,"end":716.863,"text":"我們還沒有走到那個程度但是我們可以從我們現在在做的這個地方來延伸到其他的這個地方就是我們在大選的時候也是受到這些那個選舉的干預那我們覺得說這個議題可能是其他的民主國家也會共同面對的這個議題就是今年會有40個民主選舉可能其他的國家也遭遇類似的這個狀況"},{"start":718.104,"end":745.69,"text":"所以我去結合了我們台灣的這些 civic society 的這些好朋友們讓他們能夠有一些研究的成果然後到美國到加拿大到歐盟他們去做發表去跟其他的重視這個議題的朋友能夠有更多的這種意見交換從這個來互相學習如何來抗衡這個操縱選舉或者是面對那個假訊息攻勢的這個機會"},{"start":746.51,"end":748.311,"text":"主席再給我30秒那可能就不用回應齁我就是快速再問一個問題是跟"},{"start":764.06,"end":773.672,"text":"國民黨的網站在英文版的部分2020是停止更新但是在民主基金會的這個申請上面在2021年還是有申請72萬元的一個預算"},{"start":779.599,"end":779.619,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}}}}