{"id":150127,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150127","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192edd0fc8347708b9b2c38239db8676b4ff8ba9b0039caa7a645097f08a7822b4c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"10:47:45 - 11:01:56","影片長度":"00:14:11","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部、教育部就「落實職場性別平等及性平三法上路如何落實雇主責任」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、教育部就「完善職場育兒環境及托育人員專業職能、工作倫理及職業道德之培訓策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【3月20日及21日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-7"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":851,"end_time":"2024-03-20T11:01:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T10:47:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":634,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時47分）謝謝主席，先請衛福部次長。"],["主席：好，請李次長。"],["李次長麗芬：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：次長好，次長辛苦了。我想週一的時候次長跟部長也都在委員會，我想次長應該有聽到我跟部長在檢討這個過程。我一直覺得這個保護網基本上是有把這個小朋友接住，不是漏掉，那怎麼會在這個安全的保護網裡面，他反而被這樣這麼殘忍的對待以至於虐待死亡，我覺得有很多的面向要討論，部長也允諾，事實上還有很多的地方有盲點。甚至也提到有專家學者以及地方政府反對相關的修法，所以那天我特別說可以請召委來排專案或是公聽會，大家一起來討論，這是第一件事情。","第二件事情有兩個部分，我想也再跟次長做討論一下，請次長看一下這個，這個是新北市社會局在2011年左右就已經呼籲民眾「雞婆多一點、社會問題就少一點」，但是看到這一次的剴剴案件，我們覺得又格外地諷刺，為什麼這麼說？因為有民眾聽到嬰兒啼哭聲卻沒有進行通報，這個是相關的報導，到底是我們社會出了什麼問題？政府長期宣導民眾要雞婆一點。也有鄰居說曾聞小孩子的哭聲，但是為什麼這個鄰居沒有雞婆來通報？為什麼臺灣社會遇到這種事情變得不雞婆？那政府一直在宣導要雞婆，這個就是很大的衝突跟矛盾。","再請次長看一個社論，某個民眾在投稿某家論壇時特別提到的標題「虐童案『雞婆』有用嗎？」這是3月16日的，內容我大致上唸一段，就是說在他住家附近有一個80多歲的老婦，女兒常因細故對他怒聲斥責，他有一次看到他的女兒在花園走道用拖鞋暴打他，他就立即撥打了113這個專線通報，那社工就回答他說已經做成紀錄，會在適當的時機家訪，還囑咐他有類似的狀況可以先報警，再由社工單位介入，效果會更好，聽起來好像有道理。然後他又發現這個老人家後來眼睛烏青腫脹，小腿有受傷包紮，聊天才知道孫子也對他施暴，會故意地推倒他或惡意絆倒，或整天嚷著要他媽媽把這個外婆趕走，這個老婦還特別叮嚀投書者別聲張，以免他遭受到更惡劣的對待。他覺得事態嚴重便報警處理，警察也去了，告誡這個女兒不得再有這個類似行為，這個女兒停不了幾天又故態復萌，甚至於變本加厲。已經通報了兩次了，他覺得他已經深感無力，也只能眼睜睜地看著這名老婦驚恐的表情與日復一日地持續受虐。","我講這兩個事情是要給次長辛苦一下，當然我知道相關單位可能業務量繁多，沒有辦法兼顧到每一個個案，這個我們都很清楚。但是像有人願意雞婆，而且雞婆幾次之後，却變成熱臉貼冷屁股，那這問題又出來了。我們怎麼樣讓微小、確實已經發生、這麼嚴重的行為，不管通知社政、不管通知警政，卻也得不到一個好的處理方式。我不曉得這個再不處理，下一次衛環委員會的專報可能這就會變成一個主題了，請次長。"],["李次長麗芬：謝謝委員這次用這兩個案子來提醒我們。其實像我們最近保護服務司確實也發現一個現象，就是卑對尊的這樣一個施虐的情形、案件是增加的，所以本來就是有針對社工在對於卑對尊的這樣一個施虐的相關敏感度跟施虐部分有再強化他們的職能，如果以這個案子來講的話，其實他們應該要去評估到如果這個老媽媽已經被施虐，在家庭當中是不是有再被施暴的風險？其實這個成人的施暴，也是有緊急安置、緊急保護的措施。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！"],["李次長麗芬：對，所以我是覺得這個部分要怎麼樣加一個敏感度職能，以及我們還是要來敦促社會政府，確實我們看到有一些縣市政府它們在對安置資源的布建是比較缺乏的，有可能就是因為安置的資源不足的情況之下，所以社工沒有辦法做這樣一個緊急安置，這個部分我們會再來持續。我想我們都會有一些指標，這些指標縣市能不能怎麼樣子來督導，它們落實的強度我們應該會來加強。"],["劉委員建國：簡單講就是這個雞婆的人已經通報了社政，那社政的處置是這樣；也通報了警政，警政的處置又這樣，所以這個事情我覺得可能衛福部這邊要承擔起更大的責任，督導的責任要再特別加重。可安置為什麼你不去做安置？可怎樣做應變你為什麼不去做應變？不然這樣的憾事會一件、一件又發生，就請次長特別、全面做重新檢討啦！","那第二件事情都有相連性，回到我們今天探討這個保母的制度，有律師在臉書上的PO文說：「送嬰托兒的感覺好像在抽盲盒，看誰會先中獎，然後誰運氣不好就會被低級的錯誤惡意虐待，奪去寶寶的性命」。次長，兒少法已經排除犯有性剝削、毒品、暴力罪刑者去得擔任保母，但是這都必須在判決之後，對不對？好，判決後政府才會消極地取消這個保母的資格，有沒有更積極的作法？這個案件中有很多鄰居站出來說這個保母有黑歷史，我想這個也是在事後，不僅剴剴的小朋友之前，其他在孩童照顧不當的情況之下，這個保母對外籍移工更頻繁地更換，而且還傳有虐待移工的情事。奇怪，街坊鄰居都知道，唯獨地方政府不知情，所以民眾在找保母的時候好像等於是瞎子摸象。然後我們再看衛福部的托育平臺，這個實在是有夠兩光的。"],["李次長麗芬：沒有。"],["劉委員建國：這是你們做的嘛！托育平臺沒有照片、沒有名字，OK，因為個資，是不是？"],["李次長麗芬：對。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛，個資嘛！"],["李次長麗芬：因為必須經過他的同意。"],["劉委員建國：是、是，他的同意嘛，他的手機？"],["李次長麗芬：對，他同意提供手機。"],["劉委員建國：他同意，OK，好。他的托育服務地址，也是他同意。那登記證的編號，技術證編號，年齡45到50歲。"],["李次長麗芬：這是……"],["劉委員建國：然後下面的托育環境通通沒有，所以只要他不同意，就通通都不用po，這個托育平臺是誰設計的嘛？是公部門嘛，對不對？"],["李次長麗芬：是我們設計的。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！"],["李次長麗芬：對。"],["劉委員建國：然後我們完全要遵照他，他只願意公布手機、公布證號、公布托育的服務住址，其他他不公布，你就完全要尊重他？"],["李次長麗芬：是。"],["劉委員建國：連我要去看這樣的一個基本資料，我要聘的人、聘這個保母，我就只有看到這些，然後你說因為個資的關係。"],["李次長麗芬：嗯。"],["劉委員建國：這個太牽強了吧！"],["李次長麗芬：應該是說目前這個平臺也是政府主動去做，都不是依法的授權，我是覺得委員……"],["劉委員建國：政府主動去做都不是一個依法的授權？"],["李次長麗芬：不是法律……"],["劉委員建國：政府在違法？"],["李次長麗芬：不是、不是。"],["劉委員建國：沒有授權所以就……"],["李次長麗芬：沒有、沒有，我要講的部分就是說謝謝委員這個提醒，我們確實現在在修兒童托育專法，是不是要把從事保母什麼樣的資訊要做一些揭露的話，我覺得我們可以透過這個兒童托育專法再來審慎地考量一下，就是說保母哪些部分的一定要來揭露的。我覺得確實在整個個資的這個部分還是要有法律的授權，我們才能夠比較強制地要求保母配合，這個部分我們在這次修法時會再把它考量進來。"],["劉委員建國：因為時間的關係，我後面還有兩個題目。我覺得當這個是政府所設計的托育平臺，它就必須要非常嚴謹加慎重，要給聘僱的家長甚至於機構都有一個參考的、好的平臺嘛！"],["李次長麗芬：瞭解。"],["劉委員建國：但是如果這個平臺是不好的，這就交代不過去了。"],["李次長麗芬：是。"],["劉委員建國：甚至於……"],["李次長麗芬：所以我們在修法之前還沒有……我覺得我們可以來檢討，就是我們提供這個平臺，你要放上去，就要按照我們的規定來做，你才可以放啊！我覺得這個也是一個要求，這也是我們可以來思考……"],["劉委員建國：我覺得這個是真的要趕快來檢討，好不好？另外，針對保母的住居，我們能不能來設計一個就是LOGO？"],["李次長麗芬：LOGO……"],["劉委員建國：這個保母的住居外面有一個LOGO，我們就很清楚他可能必須要比較有一個……左右鄰居就知道這邊是有保母在照顧小朋友的地方，它必須要有比較寧靜的環境，甚至有聽到小朋友經常的、很奇怪的那種啼哭聲的時候，他們會有預警，也會適時地來做雞婆的動作。"],["李次長麗芬：我們可能還是要帶回去再看看這樣的作法……"],["劉委員建國：提供鄰居一個警覺性我想有其必要，不要像這一次街坊鄰居通通知情，結果政府都不知道。"],["李次長麗芬：我們回去研議看看，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：以上三點是不是請部長一個星期內給委員會還是給我一個你們討論完之後看怎麼樣來應變這個事情的答復？"],["李次長麗芬：OK，好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：次長請回。主席，我再請一下許部長，1分鐘就好。"],["主席：來，許部長請。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長，這個保母是從101年開始聘僱外籍家庭幫傭，到了112年的時候發生這個事情，又威脅移工不得出庭替剴剴作證，因而被廢聘了，我掌握的訊息是這個期間112到101，這個保母換了將近10名的外籍幫傭，平均1年換1個，你們有掌握嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有，我們有掌握，外籍移工有10名。"],["劉委員建國：好，這樣的狀況正常嗎？"],["許部長銘春：不好意思，因為移工沒有申訴，我們真的是也沒有辦法。"],["劉委員建國：不是、不是，移工沒有申訴，10年換10個，你如果把辦手續的時間也算進去，不是1年1次，不到一年就換一個欸！"],["許部長銘春：以後這種頻繁的應該要列為高風險去訪視啦！"],["劉委員建國：對啊，他真的就是高風險，今天如果我們有預警到這個事情，知道這個故事的保母有虐待外籍移工，其實剴剴的事情可能就不會發生了。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，謝謝您，我們會來加強訪視，我們的訪查員會針對這種頻繁換移工的雇主來加強他訪視的次數。"],["劉委員建國：我掌握到這個訊息的時候真的非常驚訝，十年換十個，不到一年換一個，勞動署給本辦的資料是說除了約滿到期外，還有合意解約的。當我們在討論要處理印度移工的時候，勞動部自己都說外籍勞工來臺灣會很珍惜工作機會，對不對？結果這做不到一年就要換工作，是不是他很不珍惜？他是什麼理由合意要離開？怎麼會隨便的合意要解約？我們怎麼會沒有注意到？"],["許部長銘春：關於這個部分，我們也會跟地方政府一起來努力，因為解約驗證是由地方政府在執行，這部分我們也會加以提醒，尤其訪視的部分要加強。"],["劉委員建國：對，一個關懷機制，一個訪視機制跟預警機制嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：在這十年內如果我們提早發現其中有一個被他更換掉的外籍移工，可能在聘僱過程裡面他不敢講，但是他合意解約了之後，我們私底下去瞭解他為什麼不到一年的時間就要離開。問一個問不出來，問兩個問不出來，十年內有十個，問三個或許就問出來是因為長期受虐。就像我剛才講的，這樣就不會有下一個移工再受虐，不會有剴剴事件發生嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：部長，請你們檢討好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員，等一下林淑芬委員質詢結束後我們就處理臨時提案。","接下來請黃秀芳委員質詢。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝主席，請李次長。"],["主席：李次長請。"],["李次長麗芬：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：次長好。這幾個禮拜大家一直在討論我們的托育環境，在去年總統跟立委選舉的時候，我相信不論是總統候選人或者是立委候選人都有提出許多相關的托育政策，針對目前的育兒相關政策，衛福部這邊也有很多，有的是補助，針對補助的部分，其實剛剛有很多委員提到臺灣少子化，如果一直用補助的方式可以解決少子化的問題嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：經濟壓力的問題，在我們相關的調查還是年輕父母親很重視的部分，所以我們當然是透過經濟的補助來減輕家長的負擔。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們看到衛福部這邊也補助了，不論是從0到2歲或者是2到4歲，甚至在幼兒園的部分也都有補助，當然這個補助對年輕朋友來講應該多多少少有一些助益，但我看到我們的生育率還是很低，感覺好像也是沒有起色，去年還剩下13萬，這每一年都一直在減少。請問除了補助之外，你們有什麼樣的政策可以讓年輕人覺得政府除了減輕他的經濟負擔之外，整個托育的環境也改善讓他願意生、敢生？"],["李次長麗芬：在整個托育部分的話，我想除了托育補助之外，其實我們也都很積極的在布建所謂的公共化跟準公共化，因為讓父母親可以就近找到品質好的托育場域，其實也是非常重要。另外也跟勞動部一直在推動職場的部分，如果可以讓父母親帶著孩子一起去上班，這對於這些年輕父母親來講也是一個會有幫助的地方。我想怎麼樣把托育資源布建得更完整，這個部分我們會持續來努力。最近有關少子女化的檢討，可能看到的是年輕人不是不敢生而已，而是連結婚率也下降……"],["黃委員秀芳：也不想結婚。"],["李次長麗芬：對，所以怎麼樣鼓勵年輕的朋友……"],["黃委員秀芳：你們怎麼鼓勵？我看你們提出來的政策好像對這個部分也沒有什麼幫助，反而每一年結婚率也低，然後出生率也低，那未來要怎麼辦？"],["李次長麗芬：針對這個部分，因為整個少子女化對策是行政院有政委在做跨部會的協調，確實現在各部會也都在繼續的研議、滾動的修正，看看怎麼樣子可以再來鼓勵婚育這件事情、有什麼樣的措施，這個部分其實在行政院都有一個會議持續的在討論當中，還有就是哪些方面還可以再減輕父母親的負擔，這些都有在做檢討。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我覺得很重要的一點是除了補助之外，可能整個托育的環境也要改善。剴剴的事件我相信也讓很多人有感而發，就像年輕人他也許會覺得萬一我碰到這樣的保母要怎麼辦？我在這邊也要提出保母應該要有退場機制，要把自己的小孩交給保母，他也會去看這個保母的環境嘛！如果保母的居家環境不好、整個環境空間不夠或者是保母的態度或什麼的種種，你們應該有一個評鑑的機制，如果在第一線去評鑑之後是不好的話，也許可以改善的就改善，不能改善應該就是要讓他退場啦！"],["李次長麗芬：其實都有這個機制……"],["黃委員秀芳：那怎麼去落實啊？"],["李次長麗芬：縣市政府都要去評核，其實保母要拿到證照可以執業的話，他的環境也是要經過檢核通過才可以。"],["黃委員秀芳：有的新手爸爸媽媽會說這個保母的環境是不好的，如果他的環境是不好的，為什麼他還可以擔任保母？"],["李次長麗芬：關於他的環境不好，我們在上次跟縣市的檢討會議當中，臺北市有說明他們看到那個環境不好是因為本來孩子的受托環境其實是在一樓，因為他那時候收了二個孩子，那一個孩子死亡，另一個孩子還在受托當中，結果因為發生這件事情保母把他移到三樓，而三樓本來就不是核可的托育環境，那個環境確實是比較髒亂的。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，是不是未來也不可以預警式的去說你們要去訪視……"],["李次長麗芬：對，本來就應該是無預警式的。"],["黃委員秀芳：那為什麼之前還會有這樣的狀況？就是還會打電話去預……"],["李次長麗芬：居托中心這邊會採無預警的方式，可是另外那個社工是兒盟的社工，他們可能不是採無預警的方式。接下來針對這些收、出養機構，我們也會希望他們對於這些收托的場域也應該是採無預警的方式。"],["黃委員秀芳：有這樣的一個慘痛案例，我們希望未來這方面該改善的真的要去落實啦！其實我覺得落實是最重要的……"],["李次長麗芬：沒錯，都是執行面的……"],["黃委員秀芳：如果一年至少有4次的訪視，出養的機構還有一年12次的訪視，那為什麼還會有這樣的兒虐案例發生？所以我覺得可能在執行方面真的要非常的落實。"],["李次長麗芬：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，剛剛次長特別提到要怎麼樣讓年輕人敢生敢養，讓他有好的托育環境，剛剛次長也有特別提到現在有準公共化或者是非營利幼兒園及公托，其實我們也看到有很多加入準公共化的幼兒園，加入準公共化的幼兒園其實有的原本體質可能不是那麼好，後來因為它有加入準公共化之後，就讓它可以再繼續營運下去，我想請教針對這些加入準公共化的幼兒園，原本它可能體質就已經不好了，後面你們要怎麼讓它接受你們的補助之後，整個品質可以提升？"],["李次長麗芬：委員是要問幼兒園，還是托嬰中心？"],["黃委員秀芳：幼兒園。"],["李次長麗芬：如果是幼兒園，那就要請教育部。"],["王組長慧秋：跟委員說明一下，準公幼園加入以後，基本上縣市政府還是要有督導的角色，我們每一年都會給準公幼園一些相關的補助，挹注一些設施、設備，讓它可以改善整體的環境，當然也會去做定期的檢核，因為目前坊間很多一直在反映準公幼園有一些違規的狀況，所以我們都會請縣市地方政府再加強後續的查核。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我覺得加入準公共化之後，其實你們也要有一個評鑑的機制，你們不能讓它這樣子……我覺得有很多原本在還沒有加入準公共化之前，它可能快要撐不下去了，後來加入準公共化之後它可以繼續營運，它的環境、品質有的可能沒有提升，有的可能巧立名目又跟家長額外收費，類似這樣的狀況，我覺得教育部應該也要有一些機制，如果它真的做得不好的話，應該也要有退場。"],["王組長慧秋：有，我們目前都有退場要件，比方它可能違規收費，基本上我們有一個申訴專線，隨時收到，我們就隨時會請縣市政府去做查核，這部分我們一直有在處理。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。最後，主席再給我1分鐘的時間，我請部長，好不好？"],["主席：許部長，請。"],["許部長銘春：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，其實之前有很多人提出要延長托育時間，延長托育時間到底是好或者是不好，這樣會不會反而顯現出我們的勞動環境是不好的？因為可能很多家長就是需要加班，他的孩子沒辦法照顧，所以就要延長托育時間，是不是請部長回答一下？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分對於照顧的人來講，因為延長等於是加班，對於整個工時來講當然就會受影響。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，所以我是不是可以要求，請部長……"],["許部長銘春：我覺得如果是像這種情形，可能要多聘人，我的意思是如果家長有這個需求，可能要增聘人力，看怎麼做一些調節……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我們現在一直在講延長托育時間，有的家長可能要加班，有的加班到8、9點再把小孩帶回去，其實跟小孩接觸的時間真的是非常地少，孩子回去之後可能洗完澡就要睡覺了，跟家長相處的時間非常地少，所以勞動部這方面是不是也要鼓勵企業主……"],["許部長銘春：當然，儘量……"],["黃委員秀芳：可能要讓員工有彈性工時，另外也要鼓勵他們準時下班。"],["許部長銘春：對。就這個部分，我們會來呼籲雇主在工作時間上，對於尤其有育兒的勞工，讓他們比較有彈性的工作時間，也能夠增加跟小孩相處的機會，所以我們會從這方面努力，跟雇主做呼籲。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，其實應該是要以兒童最佳利益來考量，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：對，沒有錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：勞動部可以做的應該是要鼓勵企業主讓員工能夠準時下班……"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：或者讓他可以有更彈性的工時，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王正旭委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-7","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","范雲","李坤城","洪孟楷","李彥秀","吳沛憶","洪申翰","牛煦庭","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","陳瑩","楊曜","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":237,"meetingDate":["2024-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部、教育部就「落實職場性別平等及性平三法上路如何落實雇主\n責任」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、教育部就「完善職場育兒環境\n及托育人員專業職能、工作倫理及職業道德之培訓策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131801_00014"}},"transcript":{"id":"150127","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150127","tool":"pyannote","id":"150127-pyannote"},"job_id":"rdnjGUNx4ZboVLV9","queued_at":"2024-06-01 23:56:46","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 23:58:35","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150127"},{"time":"2024-06-01 23:58:36","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192edd0fc8347708b9b2c38239db8676b4fe1d6f63d8c2db1b9abde68141fa036825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-01 23:59:00","msg":"converting mp4 to 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{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 848.587, \"end\": 848.607, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,289 --> 00:00:09,714\n進行質詢。好,謝主席。先請衛部次長。好,請理事長。\n\n2\n00:00:17,901 --> 00:00:36,289\n委員好市長好市長辛苦了我想週一的時候市長跟部長也都在委員會嘛市長應該有聽到我跟部長在檢討這個過程我一直覺得這個保護網基本上是有把這個小朋友接住不是漏掉那是怎麼會在這個安全的保護網裡面他反而被這樣的\n\n3\n00:00:39,110 --> 00:00:57,026\n這麼殘忍以致於虐待死亡。」我覺得有很多的面向要討論那部長也允諾嘛事實上還有些很多的地方要有盲點甚至也提到說有專家、學者及地方的政府反對相關的修法所以那天我特別說那就可以請召委來排專案\n\n4\n00:00:57,776 --> 00:01:26,841\n或是這個公聽會大家一起來討論這是第一件事情那第二件事情有兩個部分我想也再跟次長做討論一下就是說請次長看一下這個這個是新北市社會局在2011年左右的時候就已經呼籲民眾雞婆多一點社會問題就少一點但是如果看到這一次的凱雅案件我們覺得又格外的諷刺為什麼這麼說因為就是有民眾聽到應有的提呼聲的時候卻沒有進行通報\n\n5\n00:01:28,722 --> 00:01:55,773\n這一個是相關的報導到底是我們社會出了什麼問題嗎那因為政府是長期來宣導民眾說要雞婆一點所以也有鄰居說成為小孩子的哭聲但是為什麼這個鄰居沒有雞婆來通報為什麼台灣社會會讓我們遇到這種事情變得不雞婆那政府一直在宣導要雞婆\n\n6\n00:01:57,034 --> 00:02:14,655\n這個就是很大的衝突跟矛盾嘛再請社長開一個社論這是在某一個民眾在投稿某家的這個論壇的時候有特別提到他標題又寫著《孽童案激活有用嗎?這是在3月16的時候》內容我大概上\n\n7\n00:02:16,416 --> 00:02:42,024\n練一段就是說他在住家附近有一八十多歲的老戶女兒常因細故對他怒聲斥責他有一次看到他的女兒在花園走到用拖鞋暴打他他就立即撥打了113通報這個專線通報那社工就回答他說已經做成紀錄會在適當的時機加防還主護他有劣勢的狀況可以先報警再由社工單位介入效果會更好\n\n8\n00:02:43,134 --> 00:03:06,822\n聽起來好像有道理然後他又發現這個老人家後來眼睛無情腫脹小腿有受傷包紮聊天才知道孫子也對他施暴會故意的推倒或惡意絆倒或整天攘著要他媽媽把外婆趕走這個老戶還特別叮嚀這個投訴者說別伸張以免他遭受到更惡劣的對待\n\n9\n00:03:08,359 --> 00:03:29,631\n他覺得事態嚴重,便暴行處理。警察也去了,就告誡這個女兒不得再有這個類似行為但這個女兒停不了幾天就固態腹猛,甚至以變本加厲已經通報了兩次了,他覺得他已經深感無力也只能眼睜睜的看這個老戶驚恐表情與日復一日的持續狩獵我講這兩個事情是要給\n\n10\n00:03:34,803 --> 00:03:55,522\n給職場做個辛苦當然我們知道相關單位可能業務量繁多沒有辦法兼顧到每一個個案這個我們都很清楚但是像有人願意雞婆而且雞婆起事之後卻變成熱臉貼冷屁股那這個問題又出來了那我們要怎麼樣把這個微小還是說確實它已經發生了這麼嚴重的這樣的一個\n\n11\n00:03:59,645 --> 00:04:15,960\n一個實際上的這種行為的時候不管通知社政、不管通知警政卻也得不到一個好的處方式我不想要說這個再不處理那下一次衛福委員會的專報可能就會變成一個主題了\n\n12\n00:04:17,718 --> 00:04:34,973\n來,請次長。好,謝謝委員,就是用這兩個案子來提醒我們。其實像我們最近保護服務室確實也發現一個現象,就是背對尊的這樣一個肆虐的情形是案件是增加的。\n\n13\n00:04:35,612 --> 00:04:53,905\n所以本來就是有針對社工在對於對尊的這樣一個失戀的相關的一個敏感度跟失戀這個部分有在強化他們的職能那如果以這個案子來講的話其實這個他們應該要去評估到說如果這個老媽媽已經被失戀\n\n14\n00:04:54,685 --> 00:05:22,979\n那在家庭當中是不是有在被施暴的風險?其實這個承認的施暴也是有緊急安置緊急保護的一個措施對,所以我是覺得說這個部分就是說怎麼樣子要有這樣一個敏感度之能以及我想說我們還是要來敦促社會政府就是確實我們看到有一些縣市政府他們在對安置資源的部件是比較缺乏的有可能就是因為\n\n15\n00:05:23,519 --> 00:05:53,030\n安置的資源不足的情況之下所以社工沒有辦法做這樣一個緊急安置那這個部分我們會就是會再來持續我想說我們都會有一些指標啦只是說這些指標縣市能不能怎麼樣來督導他們落實的這個強度我們應該會來加強對就簡單講就是說這一個雞婆的人已經通報了社政那社政的處置是這樣通報了警政警政的處置又這樣\n\n16\n00:05:53,878 --> 00:05:55,473\n所以這個事情我覺得可能要\n\n17\n00:05:56,448 --> 00:06:24,229\n衛福部這邊要承擔起更大的責任督導的責任要特別加重可安置為什麼你不去做安置可怎樣做應變你為什麼不去做應變不然這樣的憾事會一件一件又發生這市長是特別可能要全面來再做重新一個檢討那第二件事情都有相連性回到我們今天探討這個保姆的制度有律師在臉書上的PO文說送嬰托兒的感覺好像在抽盲盒看誰會先中獎然後誰運氣不好\n\n18\n00:06:26,391 --> 00:06:41,890\n這會被低級的錯誤、惡意、虐待、奪去寶寶的性命。而少華已經排除了性剝削、毒品、暴力、罪行不得擔任保姆,但是這都必須在判決之後,對不對?好,那政府才會消極的取消這個保姆資格。\n\n19\n00:06:42,762 --> 00:07:08,398\n有沒有更積極的做法?這個案件中有很多鄰居站出來說這個保姆有黑歷史我想這個也是在事後不僅凱凱的小朋友之前其他在孩童照顧不當的情況之下這個保姆對外籍移工更頻繁的更換而且還傳聞有虐待移工的情勢奇怪接訪鄰居都知道唯獨地方政府不知情\n\n20\n00:07:09,358 --> 00:07:33,598\n所以民眾在找保姆的時候好像只能瞎子摸象然後我們再看到我們衛福部的托育沒有平台這個實在是有夠兩光的這你們做的嘛托育平台沒有照片沒有名字OK因為各自是不是對嘛各自嘛應該必須經過他的同意嘛對阿他的手機\n\n21\n00:07:39,485 --> 00:08:03,918\n他的托育服務地址也是他同意那登記證的編號技術證編號年齡45到50歲然後下面的托育環境通通沒有所以他只要不同意所以通通就不用拖\n\n22\n00:08:06,886 --> 00:08:28,458\n這個托育平台是誰設計的嘛?是公部門嘛,對不對?是我們設計的對嘛,然後我們完全要遵照他他只願意公布手機、公布證號、公布托育的扶助詞其他他不公布你就完全要尊重他連我要去看這樣的一個基本資料我要聘的人、聘這個保姆我就可以看到這些然後你說因為各自的關係這個太牽強了吧\n\n23\n00:08:32,099 --> 00:08:47,180\n應該是說我們目前因為這個平台也是政府主動去做都不是依法的一個授權啊政府主動去做都不是一個依法的授權不是法律政府在違法不是不是沒有授權所以就\n\n24\n00:08:47,680 --> 00:09:05,593\n沒有沒有,我要講的部分就是說謝謝委員這個提醒就是說我們確實現在在修兒童托育專法那是不是要把你來從事保姆什麼樣的資訊要做一些揭露的話我覺得我們可以透過這個兒童托育專法我們可以再來審慎的\n\n25\n00:09:07,054 --> 00:09:24,245\n考量一下哪些部分我們接下來可能是要保姆一定要來揭露的這個部分我覺得這個部分確實在整個個資的這個部分是還是要有法律的一個授權我們才能夠比較是強制的要求保姆的一個配合\n\n26\n00:09:25,725 --> 00:09:51,460\n對,這個部分我們在這次修法的時候我們會把它考量進來因為時間的關係後面還有兩個題目我覺得當這個是政府所設計的一個托育平台的情況之下他就必須要非常嚴謹加慎重要給聘僱的家長甚至於機構都有一個參考的一個好的平台但是如果這個平台是不好的\n\n27\n00:09:53,195 --> 00:10:18,573\n這是交代不過去啦我覺得我們在修法之前還沒有完我覺得我們可以來檢討就是你要放上去我們提供這個平台你要放上去那你就要按照我們的規定來做你才可以放我覺得這個也是一個要求我覺得這個是真的要趕快來檢討好不好另外一個針對保姆的住居是不是有一個我們不能來設計一個就是logo\n\n28\n00:10:20,822 --> 00:10:47,638\n這個保姆的住居裡面有外面有個logo我們就很清楚他可能必須要比較有一個左右鄰居就知道說這邊是有保姆在照顧小朋友的地方他必須要比較有鄰近的一個環境那甚至有聽到小朋友這個經常的很奇怪的那種啼哭聲的時候他們會有預警他們也會適時的來來做一個就雞婆的動作這個我們可能還是要帶回去再看看\n\n29\n00:10:48,788 --> 00:10:58,151\n提高鄰居的警覺性,我想有其必要,不要像這一次接訪鄰居通通知情,結果政府都不知道。」主席我再請一下許部長,一分鐘就好。\n\n30\n00:11:16,909 --> 00:11:41,602\n部長,這個保姆是從一百零年開始聘僱外籍家庭傍用,到了一百一十二年的時候發生這個事情,又威脅移工不得出庭替凱凱作證,因而被廢聘。我掌握的訊息是這樣,這個期間,一二到一零一,這個保姆換了將近十年的外籍傍用。\n\n31\n00:11:42,574 --> 00:11:44,315\n平均一年換一個\n\n32\n00:12:02,517 --> 00:12:08,202\n以後這種頻繁的,我們應該要高風險去仿視。今天如果我們有預警到這個事情,是不是這個顧主席保姆有虐待外籍醫工,其實凱凱的事情可能就不會發生。\n\n33\n00:12:24,677 --> 00:12:53,606\n報告委員,謝謝您我們這邊會來加強訪視我們的訪察員我們會針對這種平凡換移工的那個僱主來加強他訪視的我掌握到這個訊息的時候部長我真的非常驚訝10年換10個不到1年換1個老公署給我的本辦的資料是這樣說10人除了約滿到期外還有合意解約的當我們在討論\n\n34\n00:12:57,011 --> 00:13:17,081\n要處理印度義工的時候,勞動部都至於說外籍勞工來台灣會很珍惜工作機會嘛,對不對?做一年,做不到一年就要換工作,他很不珍惜。他什麼理由?他什麼理由合意要離開?怎麼會隨便的合意要解約?我們怎麼會沒有注意到?\n\n35\n00:13:18,534 --> 00:13:42,731\n這個部分我們也會跟地方政府一起來努力啦因為解約驗證是在地方政府的執行那這部分我們也會來做提醒那就是那個訪視的部分一個關懷機制、一個訪視機制、一個預警機制嘛今天如果我們提早在這10年內我們提早到其中有一個被他更換掉的外籍移工可能在聘僱過程裡面他不敢講嘛但是他合意解約的\n\n36\n00:13:43,553 --> 00:14:08,607\n之後我們是一下去了解他為什麼要不到一年時間他就要離開問一個問不出來問兩個問不出來十年內就有十個問三個或許又問出來了長期受虐或許就我剛才講的不會有下一個移工再受虐不會有改革的事件發生嗎?是好啦部長請檢討好不好?好謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝劉建國委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n289\t9714\t進行質詢。好,謝主席。先請衛部次長。好,請理事長。\n17901\t36289\t委員好市長好市長辛苦了我想週一的時候市長跟部長也都在委員會嘛市長應該有聽到我跟部長在檢討這個過程我一直覺得這個保護網基本上是有把這個小朋友接住不是漏掉那是怎麼會在這個安全的保護網裡面他反而被這樣的\n39110\t57026\t這麼殘忍以致於虐待死亡。」我覺得有很多的面向要討論那部長也允諾嘛事實上還有些很多的地方要有盲點甚至也提到說有專家、學者及地方的政府反對相關的修法所以那天我特別說那就可以請召委來排專案\n57776\t86841\t或是這個公聽會大家一起來討論這是第一件事情那第二件事情有兩個部分我想也再跟次長做討論一下就是說請次長看一下這個這個是新北市社會局在2011年左右的時候就已經呼籲民眾雞婆多一點社會問題就少一點但是如果看到這一次的凱雅案件我們覺得又格外的諷刺為什麼這麼說因為就是有民眾聽到應有的提呼聲的時候卻沒有進行通報\n88722\t115773\t這一個是相關的報導到底是我們社會出了什麼問題嗎那因為政府是長期來宣導民眾說要雞婆一點所以也有鄰居說成為小孩子的哭聲但是為什麼這個鄰居沒有雞婆來通報為什麼台灣社會會讓我們遇到這種事情變得不雞婆那政府一直在宣導要雞婆\n117034\t134655\t這個就是很大的衝突跟矛盾嘛再請社長開一個社論這是在某一個民眾在投稿某家的這個論壇的時候有特別提到他標題又寫著《孽童案激活有用嗎?這是在3月16的時候》內容我大概上\n136416\t162024\t練一段就是說他在住家附近有一八十多歲的老戶女兒常因細故對他怒聲斥責他有一次看到他的女兒在花園走到用拖鞋暴打他他就立即撥打了113通報這個專線通報那社工就回答他說已經做成紀錄會在適當的時機加防還主護他有劣勢的狀況可以先報警再由社工單位介入效果會更好\n163134\t186822\t聽起來好像有道理然後他又發現這個老人家後來眼睛無情腫脹小腿有受傷包紮聊天才知道孫子也對他施暴會故意的推倒或惡意絆倒或整天攘著要他媽媽把外婆趕走這個老戶還特別叮嚀這個投訴者說別伸張以免他遭受到更惡劣的對待\n188359\t209631\t他覺得事態嚴重,便暴行處理。警察也去了,就告誡這個女兒不得再有這個類似行為但這個女兒停不了幾天就固態腹猛,甚至以變本加厲已經通報了兩次了,他覺得他已經深感無力也只能眼睜睜的看這個老戶驚恐表情與日復一日的持續狩獵我講這兩個事情是要給\n214803\t235522\t給職場做個辛苦當然我們知道相關單位可能業務量繁多沒有辦法兼顧到每一個個案這個我們都很清楚但是像有人願意雞婆而且雞婆起事之後卻變成熱臉貼冷屁股那這個問題又出來了那我們要怎麼樣把這個微小還是說確實它已經發生了這麼嚴重的這樣的一個\n239645\t255960\t一個實際上的這種行為的時候不管通知社政、不管通知警政卻也得不到一個好的處方式我不想要說這個再不處理那下一次衛福委員會的專報可能就會變成一個主題了\n257718\t274973\t來,請次長。好,謝謝委員,就是用這兩個案子來提醒我們。其實像我們最近保護服務室確實也發現一個現象,就是背對尊的這樣一個肆虐的情形是案件是增加的。\n275612\t293905\t所以本來就是有針對社工在對於對尊的這樣一個失戀的相關的一個敏感度跟失戀這個部分有在強化他們的職能那如果以這個案子來講的話其實這個他們應該要去評估到說如果這個老媽媽已經被失戀\n294685\t322979\t那在家庭當中是不是有在被施暴的風險?其實這個承認的施暴也是有緊急安置緊急保護的一個措施對,所以我是覺得說這個部分就是說怎麼樣子要有這樣一個敏感度之能以及我想說我們還是要來敦促社會政府就是確實我們看到有一些縣市政府他們在對安置資源的部件是比較缺乏的有可能就是因為\n323519\t353030\t安置的資源不足的情況之下所以社工沒有辦法做這樣一個緊急安置那這個部分我們會就是會再來持續我想說我們都會有一些指標啦只是說這些指標縣市能不能怎麼樣來督導他們落實的這個強度我們應該會來加強對就簡單講就是說這一個雞婆的人已經通報了社政那社政的處置是這樣通報了警政警政的處置又這樣\n353878\t355473\t所以這個事情我覺得可能要\n356448\t384229\t衛福部這邊要承擔起更大的責任督導的責任要特別加重可安置為什麼你不去做安置可怎樣做應變你為什麼不去做應變不然這樣的憾事會一件一件又發生這市長是特別可能要全面來再做重新一個檢討那第二件事情都有相連性回到我們今天探討這個保姆的制度有律師在臉書上的PO文說送嬰托兒的感覺好像在抽盲盒看誰會先中獎然後誰運氣不好\n386391\t401890\t這會被低級的錯誤、惡意、虐待、奪去寶寶的性命。而少華已經排除了性剝削、毒品、暴力、罪行不得擔任保姆,但是這都必須在判決之後,對不對?好,那政府才會消極的取消這個保姆資格。\n402762\t428398\t有沒有更積極的做法?這個案件中有很多鄰居站出來說這個保姆有黑歷史我想這個也是在事後不僅凱凱的小朋友之前其他在孩童照顧不當的情況之下這個保姆對外籍移工更頻繁的更換而且還傳聞有虐待移工的情勢奇怪接訪鄰居都知道唯獨地方政府不知情\n429358\t453598\t所以民眾在找保姆的時候好像只能瞎子摸象然後我們再看到我們衛福部的托育沒有平台這個實在是有夠兩光的這你們做的嘛托育平台沒有照片沒有名字OK因為各自是不是對嘛各自嘛應該必須經過他的同意嘛對阿他的手機\n459485\t483918\t他的托育服務地址也是他同意那登記證的編號技術證編號年齡45到50歲然後下面的托育環境通通沒有所以他只要不同意所以通通就不用拖\n486886\t508458\t這個托育平台是誰設計的嘛?是公部門嘛,對不對?是我們設計的對嘛,然後我們完全要遵照他他只願意公布手機、公布證號、公布托育的扶助詞其他他不公布你就完全要尊重他連我要去看這樣的一個基本資料我要聘的人、聘這個保姆我就可以看到這些然後你說因為各自的關係這個太牽強了吧\n512099\t527180\t應該是說我們目前因為這個平台也是政府主動去做都不是依法的一個授權啊政府主動去做都不是一個依法的授權不是法律政府在違法不是不是沒有授權所以就\n527680\t545593\t沒有沒有,我要講的部分就是說謝謝委員這個提醒就是說我們確實現在在修兒童托育專法那是不是要把你來從事保姆什麼樣的資訊要做一些揭露的話我覺得我們可以透過這個兒童托育專法我們可以再來審慎的\n547054\t564245\t考量一下哪些部分我們接下來可能是要保姆一定要來揭露的這個部分我覺得這個部分確實在整個個資的這個部分是還是要有法律的一個授權我們才能夠比較是強制的要求保姆的一個配合\n565725\t591460\t對,這個部分我們在這次修法的時候我們會把它考量進來因為時間的關係後面還有兩個題目我覺得當這個是政府所設計的一個托育平台的情況之下他就必須要非常嚴謹加慎重要給聘僱的家長甚至於機構都有一個參考的一個好的平台但是如果這個平台是不好的\n593195\t618573\t這是交代不過去啦我覺得我們在修法之前還沒有完我覺得我們可以來檢討就是你要放上去我們提供這個平台你要放上去那你就要按照我們的規定來做你才可以放我覺得這個也是一個要求我覺得這個是真的要趕快來檢討好不好另外一個針對保姆的住居是不是有一個我們不能來設計一個就是logo\n620822\t647638\t這個保姆的住居裡面有外面有個logo我們就很清楚他可能必須要比較有一個左右鄰居就知道說這邊是有保姆在照顧小朋友的地方他必須要比較有鄰近的一個環境那甚至有聽到小朋友這個經常的很奇怪的那種啼哭聲的時候他們會有預警他們也會適時的來來做一個就雞婆的動作這個我們可能還是要帶回去再看看\n648788\t658151\t提高鄰居的警覺性,我想有其必要,不要像這一次接訪鄰居通通知情,結果政府都不知道。」主席我再請一下許部長,一分鐘就好。\n676909\t701602\t部長,這個保姆是從一百零年開始聘僱外籍家庭傍用,到了一百一十二年的時候發生這個事情,又威脅移工不得出庭替凱凱作證,因而被廢聘。我掌握的訊息是這樣,這個期間,一二到一零一,這個保姆換了將近十年的外籍傍用。\n702574\t704315\t平均一年換一個\n722517\t728202\t以後這種頻繁的,我們應該要高風險去仿視。今天如果我們有預警到這個事情,是不是這個顧主席保姆有虐待外籍醫工,其實凱凱的事情可能就不會發生。\n744677\t773606\t報告委員,謝謝您我們這邊會來加強訪視我們的訪察員我們會針對這種平凡換移工的那個僱主來加強他訪視的我掌握到這個訊息的時候部長我真的非常驚訝10年換10個不到1年換1個老公署給我的本辦的資料是這樣說10人除了約滿到期外還有合意解約的當我們在討論\n777011\t797081\t要處理印度義工的時候,勞動部都至於說外籍勞工來台灣會很珍惜工作機會嘛,對不對?做一年,做不到一年就要換工作,他很不珍惜。他什麼理由?他什麼理由合意要離開?怎麼會隨便的合意要解約?我們怎麼會沒有注意到?\n798534\t822731\t這個部分我們也會跟地方政府一起來努力啦因為解約驗證是在地方政府的執行那這部分我們也會來做提醒那就是那個訪視的部分一個關懷機制、一個訪視機制、一個預警機制嘛今天如果我們提早在這10年內我們提早到其中有一個被他更換掉的外籍移工可能在聘僱過程裡面他不敢講嘛但是他合意解約的\n823553\t848607\t之後我們是一下去了解他為什麼要不到一年時間他就要離開問一個問不出來問兩個問不出來十年內就有十個問三個或許又問出來了長期受虐或許就我剛才講的不會有下一個移工再受虐不會有改革的事件發生嗎?是好啦 部長請檢討好不好?好 謝謝主席謝謝好 謝謝劉建國委員\n","txt":"進行質詢。好,謝主席。先請衛部次長。好,請理事長。\n委員好市長好市長辛苦了我想週一的時候市長跟部長也都在委員會嘛市長應該有聽到我跟部長在檢討這個過程我一直覺得這個保護網基本上是有把這個小朋友接住不是漏掉那是怎麼會在這個安全的保護網裡面他反而被這樣的\n這麼殘忍以致於虐待死亡。」我覺得有很多的面向要討論那部長也允諾嘛事實上還有些很多的地方要有盲點甚至也提到說有專家、學者及地方的政府反對相關的修法所以那天我特別說那就可以請召委來排專案\n或是這個公聽會大家一起來討論這是第一件事情那第二件事情有兩個部分我想也再跟次長做討論一下就是說請次長看一下這個這個是新北市社會局在2011年左右的時候就已經呼籲民眾雞婆多一點社會問題就少一點但是如果看到這一次的凱雅案件我們覺得又格外的諷刺為什麼這麼說因為就是有民眾聽到應有的提呼聲的時候卻沒有進行通報\n這一個是相關的報導到底是我們社會出了什麼問題嗎那因為政府是長期來宣導民眾說要雞婆一點所以也有鄰居說成為小孩子的哭聲但是為什麼這個鄰居沒有雞婆來通報為什麼台灣社會會讓我們遇到這種事情變得不雞婆那政府一直在宣導要雞婆\n這個就是很大的衝突跟矛盾嘛再請社長開一個社論這是在某一個民眾在投稿某家的這個論壇的時候有特別提到他標題又寫著《孽童案激活有用嗎?這是在3月16的時候》內容我大概上\n練一段就是說他在住家附近有一八十多歲的老戶女兒常因細故對他怒聲斥責他有一次看到他的女兒在花園走到用拖鞋暴打他他就立即撥打了113通報這個專線通報那社工就回答他說已經做成紀錄會在適當的時機加防還主護他有劣勢的狀況可以先報警再由社工單位介入效果會更好\n聽起來好像有道理然後他又發現這個老人家後來眼睛無情腫脹小腿有受傷包紮聊天才知道孫子也對他施暴會故意的推倒或惡意絆倒或整天攘著要他媽媽把外婆趕走這個老戶還特別叮嚀這個投訴者說別伸張以免他遭受到更惡劣的對待\n他覺得事態嚴重,便暴行處理。警察也去了,就告誡這個女兒不得再有這個類似行為但這個女兒停不了幾天就固態腹猛,甚至以變本加厲已經通報了兩次了,他覺得他已經深感無力也只能眼睜睜的看這個老戶驚恐表情與日復一日的持續狩獵我講這兩個事情是要給\n給職場做個辛苦當然我們知道相關單位可能業務量繁多沒有辦法兼顧到每一個個案這個我們都很清楚但是像有人願意雞婆而且雞婆起事之後卻變成熱臉貼冷屁股那這個問題又出來了那我們要怎麼樣把這個微小還是說確實它已經發生了這麼嚴重的這樣的一個\n一個實際上的這種行為的時候不管通知社政、不管通知警政卻也得不到一個好的處方式我不想要說這個再不處理那下一次衛福委員會的專報可能就會變成一個主題了\n來,請次長。好,謝謝委員,就是用這兩個案子來提醒我們。其實像我們最近保護服務室確實也發現一個現象,就是背對尊的這樣一個肆虐的情形是案件是增加的。\n所以本來就是有針對社工在對於對尊的這樣一個失戀的相關的一個敏感度跟失戀這個部分有在強化他們的職能那如果以這個案子來講的話其實這個他們應該要去評估到說如果這個老媽媽已經被失戀\n那在家庭當中是不是有在被施暴的風險?其實這個承認的施暴也是有緊急安置緊急保護的一個措施對,所以我是覺得說這個部分就是說怎麼樣子要有這樣一個敏感度之能以及我想說我們還是要來敦促社會政府就是確實我們看到有一些縣市政府他們在對安置資源的部件是比較缺乏的有可能就是因為\n安置的資源不足的情況之下所以社工沒有辦法做這樣一個緊急安置那這個部分我們會就是會再來持續我想說我們都會有一些指標啦只是說這些指標縣市能不能怎麼樣來督導他們落實的這個強度我們應該會來加強對就簡單講就是說這一個雞婆的人已經通報了社政那社政的處置是這樣通報了警政警政的處置又這樣\n所以這個事情我覺得可能要\n衛福部這邊要承擔起更大的責任督導的責任要特別加重可安置為什麼你不去做安置可怎樣做應變你為什麼不去做應變不然這樣的憾事會一件一件又發生這市長是特別可能要全面來再做重新一個檢討那第二件事情都有相連性回到我們今天探討這個保姆的制度有律師在臉書上的PO文說送嬰托兒的感覺好像在抽盲盒看誰會先中獎然後誰運氣不好\n這會被低級的錯誤、惡意、虐待、奪去寶寶的性命。而少華已經排除了性剝削、毒品、暴力、罪行不得擔任保姆,但是這都必須在判決之後,對不對?好,那政府才會消極的取消這個保姆資格。\n有沒有更積極的做法?這個案件中有很多鄰居站出來說這個保姆有黑歷史我想這個也是在事後不僅凱凱的小朋友之前其他在孩童照顧不當的情況之下這個保姆對外籍移工更頻繁的更換而且還傳聞有虐待移工的情勢奇怪接訪鄰居都知道唯獨地方政府不知情\n所以民眾在找保姆的時候好像只能瞎子摸象然後我們再看到我們衛福部的托育沒有平台這個實在是有夠兩光的這你們做的嘛托育平台沒有照片沒有名字OK因為各自是不是對嘛各自嘛應該必須經過他的同意嘛對阿他的手機\n他的托育服務地址也是他同意那登記證的編號技術證編號年齡45到50歲然後下面的托育環境通通沒有所以他只要不同意所以通通就不用拖\n這個托育平台是誰設計的嘛?是公部門嘛,對不對?是我們設計的對嘛,然後我們完全要遵照他他只願意公布手機、公布證號、公布托育的扶助詞其他他不公布你就完全要尊重他連我要去看這樣的一個基本資料我要聘的人、聘這個保姆我就可以看到這些然後你說因為各自的關係這個太牽強了吧\n應該是說我們目前因為這個平台也是政府主動去做都不是依法的一個授權啊政府主動去做都不是一個依法的授權不是法律政府在違法不是不是沒有授權所以就\n沒有沒有,我要講的部分就是說謝謝委員這個提醒就是說我們確實現在在修兒童托育專法那是不是要把你來從事保姆什麼樣的資訊要做一些揭露的話我覺得我們可以透過這個兒童托育專法我們可以再來審慎的\n考量一下哪些部分我們接下來可能是要保姆一定要來揭露的這個部分我覺得這個部分確實在整個個資的這個部分是還是要有法律的一個授權我們才能夠比較是強制的要求保姆的一個配合\n對,這個部分我們在這次修法的時候我們會把它考量進來因為時間的關係後面還有兩個題目我覺得當這個是政府所設計的一個托育平台的情況之下他就必須要非常嚴謹加慎重要給聘僱的家長甚至於機構都有一個參考的一個好的平台但是如果這個平台是不好的\n這是交代不過去啦我覺得我們在修法之前還沒有完我覺得我們可以來檢討就是你要放上去我們提供這個平台你要放上去那你就要按照我們的規定來做你才可以放我覺得這個也是一個要求我覺得這個是真的要趕快來檢討好不好另外一個針對保姆的住居是不是有一個我們不能來設計一個就是logo\n這個保姆的住居裡面有外面有個logo我們就很清楚他可能必須要比較有一個左右鄰居就知道說這邊是有保姆在照顧小朋友的地方他必須要比較有鄰近的一個環境那甚至有聽到小朋友這個經常的很奇怪的那種啼哭聲的時候他們會有預警他們也會適時的來來做一個就雞婆的動作這個我們可能還是要帶回去再看看\n提高鄰居的警覺性,我想有其必要,不要像這一次接訪鄰居通通知情,結果政府都不知道。」主席我再請一下許部長,一分鐘就好。\n部長,這個保姆是從一百零年開始聘僱外籍家庭傍用,到了一百一十二年的時候發生這個事情,又威脅移工不得出庭替凱凱作證,因而被廢聘。我掌握的訊息是這樣,這個期間,一二到一零一,這個保姆換了將近十年的外籍傍用。\n平均一年換一個\n以後這種頻繁的,我們應該要高風險去仿視。今天如果我們有預警到這個事情,是不是這個顧主席保姆有虐待外籍醫工,其實凱凱的事情可能就不會發生。\n報告委員,謝謝您我們這邊會來加強訪視我們的訪察員我們會針對這種平凡換移工的那個僱主來加強他訪視的我掌握到這個訊息的時候部長我真的非常驚訝10年換10個不到1年換1個老公署給我的本辦的資料是這樣說10人除了約滿到期外還有合意解約的當我們在討論\n要處理印度義工的時候,勞動部都至於說外籍勞工來台灣會很珍惜工作機會嘛,對不對?做一年,做不到一年就要換工作,他很不珍惜。他什麼理由?他什麼理由合意要離開?怎麼會隨便的合意要解約?我們怎麼會沒有注意到?\n這個部分我們也會跟地方政府一起來努力啦因為解約驗證是在地方政府的執行那這部分我們也會來做提醒那就是那個訪視的部分一個關懷機制、一個訪視機制、一個預警機制嘛今天如果我們提早在這10年內我們提早到其中有一個被他更換掉的外籍移工可能在聘僱過程裡面他不敢講嘛但是他合意解約的\n之後我們是一下去了解他為什麼要不到一年時間他就要離開問一個問不出來問兩個問不出來十年內就有十個問三個或許又問出來了長期受虐或許就我剛才講的不會有下一個移工再受虐不會有改革的事件發生嗎?是好啦 部長請檢討好不好?好 謝謝主席謝謝好 謝謝劉建國委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.289 --> 00:09.714\n進行質詢。好,謝主席。先請衛部次長。好,請理事長。\n\n00:17.901 --> 00:36.289\n委員好市長好市長辛苦了我想週一的時候市長跟部長也都在委員會嘛市長應該有聽到我跟部長在檢討這個過程我一直覺得這個保護網基本上是有把這個小朋友接住不是漏掉那是怎麼會在這個安全的保護網裡面他反而被這樣的\n\n00:39.110 --> 00:57.026\n這麼殘忍以致於虐待死亡。」我覺得有很多的面向要討論那部長也允諾嘛事實上還有些很多的地方要有盲點甚至也提到說有專家、學者及地方的政府反對相關的修法所以那天我特別說那就可以請召委來排專案\n\n00:57.776 --> 01:26.841\n或是這個公聽會大家一起來討論這是第一件事情那第二件事情有兩個部分我想也再跟次長做討論一下就是說請次長看一下這個這個是新北市社會局在2011年左右的時候就已經呼籲民眾雞婆多一點社會問題就少一點但是如果看到這一次的凱雅案件我們覺得又格外的諷刺為什麼這麼說因為就是有民眾聽到應有的提呼聲的時候卻沒有進行通報\n\n01:28.722 --> 01:55.773\n這一個是相關的報導到底是我們社會出了什麼問題嗎那因為政府是長期來宣導民眾說要雞婆一點所以也有鄰居說成為小孩子的哭聲但是為什麼這個鄰居沒有雞婆來通報為什麼台灣社會會讓我們遇到這種事情變得不雞婆那政府一直在宣導要雞婆\n\n01:57.034 --> 02:14.655\n這個就是很大的衝突跟矛盾嘛再請社長開一個社論這是在某一個民眾在投稿某家的這個論壇的時候有特別提到他標題又寫著《孽童案激活有用嗎?這是在3月16的時候》內容我大概上\n\n02:16.416 --> 02:42.024\n練一段就是說他在住家附近有一八十多歲的老戶女兒常因細故對他怒聲斥責他有一次看到他的女兒在花園走到用拖鞋暴打他他就立即撥打了113通報這個專線通報那社工就回答他說已經做成紀錄會在適當的時機加防還主護他有劣勢的狀況可以先報警再由社工單位介入效果會更好\n\n02:43.134 --> 03:06.822\n聽起來好像有道理然後他又發現這個老人家後來眼睛無情腫脹小腿有受傷包紮聊天才知道孫子也對他施暴會故意的推倒或惡意絆倒或整天攘著要他媽媽把外婆趕走這個老戶還特別叮嚀這個投訴者說別伸張以免他遭受到更惡劣的對待\n\n03:08.359 --> 03:29.631\n他覺得事態嚴重,便暴行處理。警察也去了,就告誡這個女兒不得再有這個類似行為但這個女兒停不了幾天就固態腹猛,甚至以變本加厲已經通報了兩次了,他覺得他已經深感無力也只能眼睜睜的看這個老戶驚恐表情與日復一日的持續狩獵我講這兩個事情是要給\n\n03:34.803 --> 03:55.522\n給職場做個辛苦當然我們知道相關單位可能業務量繁多沒有辦法兼顧到每一個個案這個我們都很清楚但是像有人願意雞婆而且雞婆起事之後卻變成熱臉貼冷屁股那這個問題又出來了那我們要怎麼樣把這個微小還是說確實它已經發生了這麼嚴重的這樣的一個\n\n03:59.645 --> 04:15.960\n一個實際上的這種行為的時候不管通知社政、不管通知警政卻也得不到一個好的處方式我不想要說這個再不處理那下一次衛福委員會的專報可能就會變成一個主題了\n\n04:17.718 --> 04:34.973\n來,請次長。好,謝謝委員,就是用這兩個案子來提醒我們。其實像我們最近保護服務室確實也發現一個現象,就是背對尊的這樣一個肆虐的情形是案件是增加的。\n\n04:35.612 --> 04:53.905\n所以本來就是有針對社工在對於對尊的這樣一個失戀的相關的一個敏感度跟失戀這個部分有在強化他們的職能那如果以這個案子來講的話其實這個他們應該要去評估到說如果這個老媽媽已經被失戀\n\n04:54.685 --> 05:22.979\n那在家庭當中是不是有在被施暴的風險?其實這個承認的施暴也是有緊急安置緊急保護的一個措施對,所以我是覺得說這個部分就是說怎麼樣子要有這樣一個敏感度之能以及我想說我們還是要來敦促社會政府就是確實我們看到有一些縣市政府他們在對安置資源的部件是比較缺乏的有可能就是因為\n\n05:23.519 --> 05:53.030\n安置的資源不足的情況之下所以社工沒有辦法做這樣一個緊急安置那這個部分我們會就是會再來持續我想說我們都會有一些指標啦只是說這些指標縣市能不能怎麼樣來督導他們落實的這個強度我們應該會來加強對就簡單講就是說這一個雞婆的人已經通報了社政那社政的處置是這樣通報了警政警政的處置又這樣\n\n05:53.878 --> 05:55.473\n所以這個事情我覺得可能要\n\n05:56.448 --> 06:24.229\n衛福部這邊要承擔起更大的責任督導的責任要特別加重可安置為什麼你不去做安置可怎樣做應變你為什麼不去做應變不然這樣的憾事會一件一件又發生這市長是特別可能要全面來再做重新一個檢討那第二件事情都有相連性回到我們今天探討這個保姆的制度有律師在臉書上的PO文說送嬰托兒的感覺好像在抽盲盒看誰會先中獎然後誰運氣不好\n\n06:26.391 --> 06:41.890\n這會被低級的錯誤、惡意、虐待、奪去寶寶的性命。而少華已經排除了性剝削、毒品、暴力、罪行不得擔任保姆,但是這都必須在判決之後,對不對?好,那政府才會消極的取消這個保姆資格。\n\n06:42.762 --> 07:08.398\n有沒有更積極的做法?這個案件中有很多鄰居站出來說這個保姆有黑歷史我想這個也是在事後不僅凱凱的小朋友之前其他在孩童照顧不當的情況之下這個保姆對外籍移工更頻繁的更換而且還傳聞有虐待移工的情勢奇怪接訪鄰居都知道唯獨地方政府不知情\n\n07:09.358 --> 07:33.598\n所以民眾在找保姆的時候好像只能瞎子摸象然後我們再看到我們衛福部的托育沒有平台這個實在是有夠兩光的這你們做的嘛托育平台沒有照片沒有名字OK因為各自是不是對嘛各自嘛應該必須經過他的同意嘛對阿他的手機\n\n07:39.485 --> 08:03.918\n他的托育服務地址也是他同意那登記證的編號技術證編號年齡45到50歲然後下面的托育環境通通沒有所以他只要不同意所以通通就不用拖\n\n08:06.886 --> 08:28.458\n這個托育平台是誰設計的嘛?是公部門嘛,對不對?是我們設計的對嘛,然後我們完全要遵照他他只願意公布手機、公布證號、公布托育的扶助詞其他他不公布你就完全要尊重他連我要去看這樣的一個基本資料我要聘的人、聘這個保姆我就可以看到這些然後你說因為各自的關係這個太牽強了吧\n\n08:32.099 --> 08:47.180\n應該是說我們目前因為這個平台也是政府主動去做都不是依法的一個授權啊政府主動去做都不是一個依法的授權不是法律政府在違法不是不是沒有授權所以就\n\n08:47.680 --> 09:05.593\n沒有沒有,我要講的部分就是說謝謝委員這個提醒就是說我們確實現在在修兒童托育專法那是不是要把你來從事保姆什麼樣的資訊要做一些揭露的話我覺得我們可以透過這個兒童托育專法我們可以再來審慎的\n\n09:07.054 --> 09:24.245\n考量一下哪些部分我們接下來可能是要保姆一定要來揭露的這個部分我覺得這個部分確實在整個個資的這個部分是還是要有法律的一個授權我們才能夠比較是強制的要求保姆的一個配合\n\n09:25.725 --> 09:51.460\n對,這個部分我們在這次修法的時候我們會把它考量進來因為時間的關係後面還有兩個題目我覺得當這個是政府所設計的一個托育平台的情況之下他就必須要非常嚴謹加慎重要給聘僱的家長甚至於機構都有一個參考的一個好的平台但是如果這個平台是不好的\n\n09:53.195 --> 10:18.573\n這是交代不過去啦我覺得我們在修法之前還沒有完我覺得我們可以來檢討就是你要放上去我們提供這個平台你要放上去那你就要按照我們的規定來做你才可以放我覺得這個也是一個要求我覺得這個是真的要趕快來檢討好不好另外一個針對保姆的住居是不是有一個我們不能來設計一個就是logo\n\n10:20.822 --> 10:47.638\n這個保姆的住居裡面有外面有個logo我們就很清楚他可能必須要比較有一個左右鄰居就知道說這邊是有保姆在照顧小朋友的地方他必須要比較有鄰近的一個環境那甚至有聽到小朋友這個經常的很奇怪的那種啼哭聲的時候他們會有預警他們也會適時的來來做一個就雞婆的動作這個我們可能還是要帶回去再看看\n\n10:48.788 --> 10:58.151\n提高鄰居的警覺性,我想有其必要,不要像這一次接訪鄰居通通知情,結果政府都不知道。」主席我再請一下許部長,一分鐘就好。\n\n11:16.909 --> 11:41.602\n部長,這個保姆是從一百零年開始聘僱外籍家庭傍用,到了一百一十二年的時候發生這個事情,又威脅移工不得出庭替凱凱作證,因而被廢聘。我掌握的訊息是這樣,這個期間,一二到一零一,這個保姆換了將近十年的外籍傍用。\n\n11:42.574 --> 11:44.315\n平均一年換一個\n\n12:02.517 --> 12:08.202\n以後這種頻繁的,我們應該要高風險去仿視。今天如果我們有預警到這個事情,是不是這個顧主席保姆有虐待外籍醫工,其實凱凱的事情可能就不會發生。\n\n12:24.677 --> 12:53.606\n報告委員,謝謝您我們這邊會來加強訪視我們的訪察員我們會針對這種平凡換移工的那個僱主來加強他訪視的我掌握到這個訊息的時候部長我真的非常驚訝10年換10個不到1年換1個老公署給我的本辦的資料是這樣說10人除了約滿到期外還有合意解約的當我們在討論\n\n12:57.011 --> 13:17.081\n要處理印度義工的時候,勞動部都至於說外籍勞工來台灣會很珍惜工作機會嘛,對不對?做一年,做不到一年就要換工作,他很不珍惜。他什麼理由?他什麼理由合意要離開?怎麼會隨便的合意要解約?我們怎麼會沒有注意到?\n\n13:18.534 --> 13:42.731\n這個部分我們也會跟地方政府一起來努力啦因為解約驗證是在地方政府的執行那這部分我們也會來做提醒那就是那個訪視的部分一個關懷機制、一個訪視機制、一個預警機制嘛今天如果我們提早在這10年內我們提早到其中有一個被他更換掉的外籍移工可能在聘僱過程裡面他不敢講嘛但是他合意解約的\n\n13:43.553 --> 14:08.607\n之後我們是一下去了解他為什麼要不到一年時間他就要離開問一個問不出來問兩個問不出來十年內就有十個問三個或許又問出來了長期受虐或許就我剛才講的不會有下一個移工再受虐不會有改革的事件發生嗎?是好啦部長請檢討好不好?好謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝劉建國委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.289,"end":9.714,"text":"進行質詢。好,謝主席。先請衛部次長。好,請理事長。"},{"start":17.901,"end":36.289,"text":"委員好市長好市長辛苦了我想週一的時候市長跟部長也都在委員會嘛市長應該有聽到我跟部長在檢討這個過程我一直覺得這個保護網基本上是有把這個小朋友接住不是漏掉那是怎麼會在這個安全的保護網裡面他反而被這樣的"},{"start":39.11,"end":57.026,"text":"這麼殘忍以致於虐待死亡。」我覺得有很多的面向要討論那部長也允諾嘛事實上還有些很多的地方要有盲點甚至也提到說有專家、學者及地方的政府反對相關的修法所以那天我特別說那就可以請召委來排專案"},{"start":57.776,"end":86.841,"text":"或是這個公聽會大家一起來討論這是第一件事情那第二件事情有兩個部分我想也再跟次長做討論一下就是說請次長看一下這個這個是新北市社會局在2011年左右的時候就已經呼籲民眾雞婆多一點社會問題就少一點但是如果看到這一次的凱雅案件我們覺得又格外的諷刺為什麼這麼說因為就是有民眾聽到應有的提呼聲的時候卻沒有進行通報"},{"start":88.722,"end":115.773,"text":"這一個是相關的報導到底是我們社會出了什麼問題嗎那因為政府是長期來宣導民眾說要雞婆一點所以也有鄰居說成為小孩子的哭聲但是為什麼這個鄰居沒有雞婆來通報為什麼台灣社會會讓我們遇到這種事情變得不雞婆那政府一直在宣導要雞婆"},{"start":117.034,"end":134.655,"text":"這個就是很大的衝突跟矛盾嘛再請社長開一個社論這是在某一個民眾在投稿某家的這個論壇的時候有特別提到他標題又寫著《孽童案激活有用嗎?這是在3月16的時候》內容我大概上"},{"start":136.416,"end":162.024,"text":"練一段就是說他在住家附近有一八十多歲的老戶女兒常因細故對他怒聲斥責他有一次看到他的女兒在花園走到用拖鞋暴打他他就立即撥打了113通報這個專線通報那社工就回答他說已經做成紀錄會在適當的時機加防還主護他有劣勢的狀況可以先報警再由社工單位介入效果會更好"},{"start":163.134,"end":186.822,"text":"聽起來好像有道理然後他又發現這個老人家後來眼睛無情腫脹小腿有受傷包紮聊天才知道孫子也對他施暴會故意的推倒或惡意絆倒或整天攘著要他媽媽把外婆趕走這個老戶還特別叮嚀這個投訴者說別伸張以免他遭受到更惡劣的對待"},{"start":188.359,"end":209.631,"text":"他覺得事態嚴重,便暴行處理。警察也去了,就告誡這個女兒不得再有這個類似行為但這個女兒停不了幾天就固態腹猛,甚至以變本加厲已經通報了兩次了,他覺得他已經深感無力也只能眼睜睜的看這個老戶驚恐表情與日復一日的持續狩獵我講這兩個事情是要給"},{"start":214.803,"end":235.522,"text":"給職場做個辛苦當然我們知道相關單位可能業務量繁多沒有辦法兼顧到每一個個案這個我們都很清楚但是像有人願意雞婆而且雞婆起事之後卻變成熱臉貼冷屁股那這個問題又出來了那我們要怎麼樣把這個微小還是說確實它已經發生了這麼嚴重的這樣的一個"},{"start":239.645,"end":255.96,"text":"一個實際上的這種行為的時候不管通知社政、不管通知警政卻也得不到一個好的處方式我不想要說這個再不處理那下一次衛福委員會的專報可能就會變成一個主題了"},{"start":257.718,"end":274.973,"text":"來,請次長。好,謝謝委員,就是用這兩個案子來提醒我們。其實像我們最近保護服務室確實也發現一個現象,就是背對尊的這樣一個肆虐的情形是案件是增加的。"},{"start":275.612,"end":293.905,"text":"所以本來就是有針對社工在對於對尊的這樣一個失戀的相關的一個敏感度跟失戀這個部分有在強化他們的職能那如果以這個案子來講的話其實這個他們應該要去評估到說如果這個老媽媽已經被失戀"},{"start":294.685,"end":322.979,"text":"那在家庭當中是不是有在被施暴的風險?其實這個承認的施暴也是有緊急安置緊急保護的一個措施對,所以我是覺得說這個部分就是說怎麼樣子要有這樣一個敏感度之能以及我想說我們還是要來敦促社會政府就是確實我們看到有一些縣市政府他們在對安置資源的部件是比較缺乏的有可能就是因為"},{"start":323.519,"end":353.03,"text":"安置的資源不足的情況之下所以社工沒有辦法做這樣一個緊急安置那這個部分我們會就是會再來持續我想說我們都會有一些指標啦只是說這些指標縣市能不能怎麼樣來督導他們落實的這個強度我們應該會來加強對就簡單講就是說這一個雞婆的人已經通報了社政那社政的處置是這樣通報了警政警政的處置又這樣"},{"start":353.878,"end":355.473,"text":"所以這個事情我覺得可能要"},{"start":356.448,"end":384.229,"text":"衛福部這邊要承擔起更大的責任督導的責任要特別加重可安置為什麼你不去做安置可怎樣做應變你為什麼不去做應變不然這樣的憾事會一件一件又發生這市長是特別可能要全面來再做重新一個檢討那第二件事情都有相連性回到我們今天探討這個保姆的制度有律師在臉書上的PO文說送嬰托兒的感覺好像在抽盲盒看誰會先中獎然後誰運氣不好"},{"start":386.391,"end":401.89,"text":"這會被低級的錯誤、惡意、虐待、奪去寶寶的性命。而少華已經排除了性剝削、毒品、暴力、罪行不得擔任保姆,但是這都必須在判決之後,對不對?好,那政府才會消極的取消這個保姆資格。"},{"start":402.762,"end":428.398,"text":"有沒有更積極的做法?這個案件中有很多鄰居站出來說這個保姆有黑歷史我想這個也是在事後不僅凱凱的小朋友之前其他在孩童照顧不當的情況之下這個保姆對外籍移工更頻繁的更換而且還傳聞有虐待移工的情勢奇怪接訪鄰居都知道唯獨地方政府不知情"},{"start":429.358,"end":453.598,"text":"所以民眾在找保姆的時候好像只能瞎子摸象然後我們再看到我們衛福部的托育沒有平台這個實在是有夠兩光的這你們做的嘛托育平台沒有照片沒有名字OK因為各自是不是對嘛各自嘛應該必須經過他的同意嘛對阿他的手機"},{"start":459.485,"end":483.918,"text":"他的托育服務地址也是他同意那登記證的編號技術證編號年齡45到50歲然後下面的托育環境通通沒有所以他只要不同意所以通通就不用拖"},{"start":486.886,"end":508.458,"text":"這個托育平台是誰設計的嘛?是公部門嘛,對不對?是我們設計的對嘛,然後我們完全要遵照他他只願意公布手機、公布證號、公布托育的扶助詞其他他不公布你就完全要尊重他連我要去看這樣的一個基本資料我要聘的人、聘這個保姆我就可以看到這些然後你說因為各自的關係這個太牽強了吧"},{"start":512.099,"end":527.18,"text":"應該是說我們目前因為這個平台也是政府主動去做都不是依法的一個授權啊政府主動去做都不是一個依法的授權不是法律政府在違法不是不是沒有授權所以就"},{"start":527.68,"end":545.593,"text":"沒有沒有,我要講的部分就是說謝謝委員這個提醒就是說我們確實現在在修兒童托育專法那是不是要把你來從事保姆什麼樣的資訊要做一些揭露的話我覺得我們可以透過這個兒童托育專法我們可以再來審慎的"},{"start":547.054,"end":564.245,"text":"考量一下哪些部分我們接下來可能是要保姆一定要來揭露的這個部分我覺得這個部分確實在整個個資的這個部分是還是要有法律的一個授權我們才能夠比較是強制的要求保姆的一個配合"},{"start":565.725,"end":591.46,"text":"對,這個部分我們在這次修法的時候我們會把它考量進來因為時間的關係後面還有兩個題目我覺得當這個是政府所設計的一個托育平台的情況之下他就必須要非常嚴謹加慎重要給聘僱的家長甚至於機構都有一個參考的一個好的平台但是如果這個平台是不好的"},{"start":593.195,"end":618.573,"text":"這是交代不過去啦我覺得我們在修法之前還沒有完我覺得我們可以來檢討就是你要放上去我們提供這個平台你要放上去那你就要按照我們的規定來做你才可以放我覺得這個也是一個要求我覺得這個是真的要趕快來檢討好不好另外一個針對保姆的住居是不是有一個我們不能來設計一個就是logo"},{"start":620.822,"end":647.638,"text":"這個保姆的住居裡面有外面有個logo我們就很清楚他可能必須要比較有一個左右鄰居就知道說這邊是有保姆在照顧小朋友的地方他必須要比較有鄰近的一個環境那甚至有聽到小朋友這個經常的很奇怪的那種啼哭聲的時候他們會有預警他們也會適時的來來做一個就雞婆的動作這個我們可能還是要帶回去再看看"},{"start":648.788,"end":658.151,"text":"提高鄰居的警覺性,我想有其必要,不要像這一次接訪鄰居通通知情,結果政府都不知道。」主席我再請一下許部長,一分鐘就好。"},{"start":676.909,"end":701.602,"text":"部長,這個保姆是從一百零年開始聘僱外籍家庭傍用,到了一百一十二年的時候發生這個事情,又威脅移工不得出庭替凱凱作證,因而被廢聘。我掌握的訊息是這樣,這個期間,一二到一零一,這個保姆換了將近十年的外籍傍用。"},{"start":702.574,"end":704.315,"text":"平均一年換一個"},{"start":722.517,"end":728.202,"text":"以後這種頻繁的,我們應該要高風險去仿視。今天如果我們有預警到這個事情,是不是這個顧主席保姆有虐待外籍醫工,其實凱凱的事情可能就不會發生。"},{"start":744.677,"end":773.606,"text":"報告委員,謝謝您我們這邊會來加強訪視我們的訪察員我們會針對這種平凡換移工的那個僱主來加強他訪視的我掌握到這個訊息的時候部長我真的非常驚訝10年換10個不到1年換1個老公署給我的本辦的資料是這樣說10人除了約滿到期外還有合意解約的當我們在討論"},{"start":777.011,"end":797.081,"text":"要處理印度義工的時候,勞動部都至於說外籍勞工來台灣會很珍惜工作機會嘛,對不對?做一年,做不到一年就要換工作,他很不珍惜。他什麼理由?他什麼理由合意要離開?怎麼會隨便的合意要解約?我們怎麼會沒有注意到?"},{"start":798.534,"end":822.731,"text":"這個部分我們也會跟地方政府一起來努力啦因為解約驗證是在地方政府的執行那這部分我們也會來做提醒那就是那個訪視的部分一個關懷機制、一個訪視機制、一個預警機制嘛今天如果我們提早在這10年內我們提早到其中有一個被他更換掉的外籍移工可能在聘僱過程裡面他不敢講嘛但是他合意解約的"},{"start":823.553,"end":848.607,"text":"之後我們是一下去了解他為什麼要不到一年時間他就要離開問一個問不出來問兩個問不出來十年內就有十個問三個或許又問出來了長期受虐或許就我剛才講的不會有下一個移工再受虐不會有改革的事件發生嗎?是好啦 部長請檢討好不好?好 謝謝主席謝謝好 謝謝劉建國委員"}]}}}}