{"id":150130,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150130","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f19258319da569d88bd5135db69d26d20764f8ba9b0039caa7a613aef6d08d5d55f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:05:36 - 11:17:42","影片長度":"00:12:06","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-7"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":726,"end_time":"2024-03-20T11:17:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T11:05:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":452,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時5分）請吳部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好。今天大家都很關心太平島的問題，不過今天還是想針對我們重要的外交政策來跟部長請教。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你知不知道當初為什麼我們臺灣，也就是在扁政府時代要成立這個，其實我覺得它比較像是一個國家層級的民主基金會，當然它是一個民間團體，但是為什麼要成立民主基金會？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員問這個問題，這個是在2002年的時候，我雖然那時候在擔任總統府的副秘書長，但多少也有參與這些討論，當時是看到我們臺灣，就是我們的對外宣示就是要民主立國，要用民主來立國，用民主來推動我們外交的話，那我們就必須要有一個很好的機制，所以那時候就討論像美國的民主基金會、德國的諾曼基金會等等，就是去學習其他國家的經驗，在我們臺灣也成立一個國家級的民主基金會，透過民主基金會來跟其他的民主國家共同推動國際社會的民主化。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，所以看起來在民主基金會裡面，除了它是我們外交政策重要的一環以外，看起來還有一個非常重要的關鍵是，它應該是價值導向的，部長同意嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有錯，exactly。"],["洪委員申翰：也就是我們是把民主自由包括人權等等的價值，希望能夠深入、植入我們的外交政策中，甚至變成是我們的外交戰略，所以我們當年成立了民主基金會，這樣沒有錯吧？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有錯。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長我想請問，你知不知道我們在2015年的時候，當年的民主基金會，現在我在我們民主基金會的年報上面看到這個資料，當年其實我們補助了所謂中國「亞投行」與「一帶一路」的倡議，部長知不知道這件事情？"],["吳部長釗燮：我並不知道這件事，因為民主基金會就變成一個獨立運作的單位。"],["洪委員申翰：執行長知不知道？"],["黃執行長玉霖：這是發生在我接執行長之前，我知道這個訊息。"],["洪委員申翰：好，這是2015年的事情。部長，我想請教，從現在的角度來看，「一帶一路」是中國的民主輸出，還是中國的威權輸出？"],["吳部長釗燮：比較像是威權輸出啦！"],["洪委員申翰：比較像威權輸出嘛！我們來看近期很多民主基金會的新聞，這都不是臺灣自己的新聞，現在「一帶一路」其實在國際上面，坦白說大概不會很多人認為習近平的「一帶一路」是成功的，包括現在看到為斯里蘭卡帶來了腐敗跟債務，包括一些參與「一帶一路」的國家，尼泊爾徹查他們興建中機場的基礎建設相關的費用問題。再來，我們也看到義大利說了要退出「一帶一路」，也包括肯尼亞，這是BBC的新聞，對於要跟中國合作這一條鐵路，其實有非常非常多的猶豫，這裡面除了基礎建設本身建設的經費問題以外，更大的程度大家也意識到，其實中國包括習近平主席是透過「一帶一路」來把他們的威權，包括他們政體的影響力，希望透過「一帶一路」再更大幅度的擴散跟擴展出去，這其實也讓現在很多的民主國家非常非常的警戒了。但我們在2015年的時候確實是補助了「一帶一路」的倡議，當然我現在沒有想要去追究那個時候為什麼發生這件事情，但我這邊想問部長，部長你覺得我們接下來民主基金會的運作、民主基金會的資源，還適不適合運用在像這種補助「一帶一路」倡議的相關活動裡面？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員剛剛的闡述，的確是非常發人深省，我們看到很多歐洲的國家退出了，本來是17加1變成16加1現在已經變成14加1了，現在甚至是大家都不開會了，就是因為大家擔心威權擴張的這個問題，所以我們對於中國在國際社會上面去擴張他們的影響力，我們臺灣是直接受害者，所以我們對這個必須要非常的關注。回頭過來看到民主基金會，我們臺灣的民主、自由、人權、法制等等的，這是跟一些友盟國家能夠站在一起、能夠結合非常密切關係最重要的根本，我們設立民主基金會最基本的原因就是要去推動這個，所以我是希望接下來民主基金會，我們能夠持續地來推動民主的外交、自由的外交，結合更多友盟朋友。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們看到這些過去的資料，從2015年以前的資料，我們其實看到當時民主基金會做了或補助了滿多跟兩岸統合或兩岸互動有關的事情，但我要說的一個事情是，坦白說，我並不反對民主基金會的資源用在所謂的兩岸互動上，但我覺得一個重要的前提是我們剛才講的，如果這個兩岸互動的活動或者是兩岸互動的這個過程，其實是來推進民主化的，我覺得我自己願意支持，比方如果民主基金會的活動是用在發展、有助於發展中國的公民社會民主自由蓬勃發展的，我自己支持，我覺得這也很好，這也是國際很多重要的民主工作非常非常重要的一環，也包括有很多的國際組織也都是在看中國的民主化有沒有可能再更進一步，當然這幾年讓大家是很失望的。","所以我不是說不能夠用在兩岸的工作上面，不是不能夠用在兩岸互動上，不是！但前提是它要帶有是推進自由、人權、民主價值的，但我當然現在很懷疑，習主席跟臺灣之間，假設他要規劃跟臺灣的互動，他會不會容許這個活動是推動中國的民主化？我自己是懷疑這件事情，可是我並不反對用在兩岸互動上，但前提很清楚，它是價值導向的，而不是反而是要讓臺灣受制於更多中國的影響力跟控制的，尤其是在他當前的這個價值觀，包括政治價值的這個關鍵裡面，這部分我是要跟部長表達的，包括現在執行長也在這邊，我們很希望接下來民主基金會的運作能夠堅守價值。今天到底是誰當執行長、誰當什麼，這個事情是另外一回事，我們今天不討論這個問題，但就經營的方向上很清楚，我們看到現在一帶一路甚至已經被很多人權組織批判，它其實是迫害人權的。所以我今天也不再去追究為什麼當年做這個補助，也許當年對於一帶一路的看法跟現在大家事後實證的看法確實有不一樣，也許有可能依據著時間的演變而有不同，可是我希望我們可以記取這個教訓，要把我們重要的外交資源繼續堅守價值取向、價值優先的狀況之下，這是我們的期許。","接下來，我要跟部長再請教的問題是，因為這幾次包括去年我也去參加杜拜的COP28，我們自己感覺到確實我們在參與COP28過程裡面，其實還是受到了來自中國很多的打壓，之前我們跟經濟部在其他委員會質詢時其實有提到，我在參與幾次了以後，我自己認為淨零轉型或者是氣候變遷的工作，部長覺得有辦法臺灣關起門來自己做嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有辦法。"],["洪委員申翰：如果沒有辦法關起門來自己做……"],["吳部長釗燮：因為這是全球的趨勢，我們必須要去參與國際的……"],["洪委員申翰：這是全球重要的議程，可是我自己覺得在這個全球重要的議程上面，我們在這上面的國際戰略好像不夠清楚，我們現在可能比較多都是去參與像COP的會議，沒有錯，可是COP因為有中國的因素，也包括它可能是聯合國下面的機制，我們的參與相對困難，但我認為如果這是一個全球的議程，它可能不是只發生在聯合國下的機制而已，當然UNFCCC很重要，我們也希望盡力能夠實質參與，沒有錯，可是我更覺得我們恐怕是需要來訂定一個氣候跟淨零整體的國際戰略專案，這個戰略專案裡面可能包括幾件事情，也許有很多國際上面重要的淨零技術，是不是可以更快速的或更敏捷的引入臺灣？這可能是一個技術方面的事情。","第二個，不要忘了，有很多我們太平洋的友邦其實是在氣候談判裡面非常非常重要，被認為是小島國家聯盟，當然我們這幾年可能透過國合會，有跟他們有一些在調適上面的補助，可是我真的覺得我們還可以跟他們在關係上面更加加深，甚至在很多氣候談判上面，我們也可以支持這些小島國家，支持我們太平洋友邦國家的立場，其實我們應該要更深度的跟這些太平洋友邦小島國家聯盟結合，也許可以讓我們在未來的氣候發聲上面更具有發言權，這也是我們可以在國際戰略的一個部分，當然現在更多企業很關心國際上面要收碳關稅，國際要不要碳邊境調整機制，這是國際上面制度的變革，我們也應該掌握得更清楚。","所以我這邊是想要跟部長談，我其實之前也跟經濟部、環境部談過了，我們其實應該要跟行政院提出要有一個氣候的國際戰略專案，也許裡面包括外交部、包括經濟部、包括環境部，從國家的發展，尤其是氣候整體假設已經牽涉到國家戰略問題的時候，有一個這樣的高度來配置相關資源，而不是只是每年我們大概就花比較多的力氣在處理每年年底的COP，當然我們參與這個都很辛苦，我知道很多外交人員包括司長，其實在這幾年的過程裡，都非常非常辛苦在做這件事情，可是我覺得我們需要一個更高的視野來看待這件事情，有這樣一個專案搭配其他部會的綜合配合，我覺得我們才有可能比較進一步的突破，而不一定是每年在COP上面遇到很多的阻礙，大家就會非常非常的辛苦，反而是應該去開發或者是找到更多聯合國以外的路徑，讓我們在氣候跟淨零上面有更多的國際聯結跟國際合作的可能。部長，你覺得有沒有機會？"],["吳部長釗燮：我贊成。我這邊如果有機會，我跟行政院那邊建議，我覺得這個非常好。"],["洪委員申翰：我覺得這比較能夠擺脫我們過去幾年其實有時候在參與上算是挫敗的感受，可是這是我們做得到的事情，而且我們也有這個基礎，我們很希望接下來國會可以跟外交部，也包括跟國安單位，甚至行政院，我們可以一起針對這個事情來合作。部長，我也希望，如果你有這個構想，能不能夠比方也許一、兩個月之間，我們可以針對這事情再深入交換意見，怎麼來跟行政院提出這個事情，希望我們今年就有一個比較明顯的改變，拉高我們在處理的戰略高度，好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：我非常歡迎，我也會感到很榮幸跟委員做這件事情的探討。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：好，謝謝。待會兒陳冠廷發言完畢會休息5分鐘。","接下來請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-7","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","陳永康","林楚茵","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","洪申翰","陳冠廷","賴士葆","牛煦庭","林憶君","李坤城","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","翁曉玲","王鴻薇"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"150130","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/15013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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 724.822, \"end\": 724.842, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,011 --> 00:00:21,173\n請吳部長有請部長部長好今天大家都很關心這個太平島的問題不過今天還是想針對其實我們重要的外交政策來跟部長請教是好下一張\n\n2\n00:00:23,806 --> 00:00:38,971\n部長你知不知道當初為什麼我們臺灣也就是在貶政府時代要成立這個其實我覺得它比較像是一個國家層級的這個民主基金會但是它是一個民間團體但是為什麼要成立民主基金會\n\n3\n00:00:39,964 --> 00:00:59,394\n非常謝謝委員問這個問題這個是在2002年的時候我雖然說那時候在擔任那個總統府的那個副秘書長那多少也有參與這些討論那當時是看到我們台灣就是那個我們那個對外宣示就是要民主立國\n\n4\n00:01:00,294 --> 00:01:27,348\n那要用民主來立國用民主來推動我們外交的話那我們就必須要有一個很好的一個機制那所以那時候就討論像美國的那個民主基金會阿德國的諾曼基金會等等的就是去學習其他國家的經驗在我們台灣也成立一個國家級的這個民主基金會透過民主基金會來跟其他的民主國家來共同推動國際社會的這個民主化\n\n5\n00:01:28,066 --> 00:01:55,273\n部長所以看起來在民主基金會裡面除了他也是我們外交政策的重要的一環以外看起來他一個非常非常重要的關鍵是他應該是價值導向的部長沒有錯也就是我們是把民主自由包括人權等等的價值希望能夠深入的植入我們的外交政策中甚至變成是我們的一個外交戰略所以我們當年成立了民主基金會這樣沒有錯吧對不對沒有錯好那部長我想請問\n\n6\n00:01:57,574 --> 00:02:24,048\n這個下一張齁這個你知不知道我們在2015年的時候當年的民主基金會我現在在我們的這個民主基金會的年報上面看到這個資料當年其實我們補助了這個所謂中國雅投行與一帶一路的倡議那部長知不知道這件事情我並不知道這件事情因為那個民主基金會它就變成一個獨立運作的一個單位是執行長知不知道\n\n7\n00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:46,391\n這是發生在我接執行長之前那我知道這個訊息這是2015年的時候的事情這個部長想請教這個從現在的角度來看一帶路是民主輸出是中國的民主輸出還是中國的威權輸出\n\n8\n00:02:48,270 --> 00:02:48,470\n李卓人議員\n\n9\n00:03:08,861 --> 00:03:24,419\n為斯里蘭卡帶來了腐敗跟債務包括一些參與一帶一路的國家尼泊爾徹查他們興建中的這個機場的基礎現設相關的費用的問題再來那我們也看到義大利大概已經說了他要退出一帶一路\n\n10\n00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:51,516\n也包括這個肯尼亞這個BBC的新聞其實對於要跟中國合作這一條鐵路其實有非常非常多的猶豫這裡面除了基礎建設本身建設的經費問題以外更大的程度大家意識到其實中國也包括習近平主席是透過一帶一路來把他們的這個威權包括他們正體的影響力希望透過一帶一路在更大幅度的擴散\n\n11\n00:03:52,056 --> 00:03:52,796\n民主基金會的支援\n\n12\n00:04:16,487 --> 00:04:41,187\n還適不適合應用在像這種補助一帶一路倡議的這樣相關的活動裡面部長非常謝謝委員剛剛的這個闡述的確是非常發人深省就是我們看到很多的歐洲的國家退出了本來是17加1變成16加1現在已經變成14加1了現在甚至是大家都不開胃了就是因為大家擔心到那個威權的這個擴張的這個問題\n\n13\n00:04:43,609 --> 00:04:43,889\n臺灣的民主\n\n14\n00:04:58,812 --> 00:04:58,912\n主席\n\n15\n00:05:21,018 --> 00:05:42,408\n部長我們看到這些過去的當然從2015以前的資料我們其實看當時民主基金會做了或補助了蠻多跟兩岸統合或兩岸互動有關的事情但我要說的一個事情說其實我坦白說我並不反對民主基金會的資源用在所謂的兩岸互動上但我覺得一個重要的前提是我們剛才講的\n\n16\n00:05:43,729 --> 00:06:07,055\n如果這個兩岸互動的活動或者是兩岸互動的這個過程其實是來推進民主化的我覺得我自己我願意支持比方說如果民主基金會的活動是用在發展有助於發展中國的公民社會民主自由蓬勃的發展的我自己支持我覺得這也很好\n\n17\n00:06:08,431 --> 00:06:35,712\n這也是國際很多重要的民主工作非常非常重要的一環也包括有很多的國際組織也都是在看中國的民主化有沒有可能再更進一步當然最近這段這幾年讓大家是很失望的所以我說不是說不能夠用在兩岸的工作上面不是用在互動上不是但前提是他要帶有是推進自由人權民主價值的但我當然現在很懷疑習主席\n\n18\n00:06:37,474 --> 00:07:01,288\n臺灣之間假設他規劃跟臺灣的互動的話他會不會容許我們是來這個活動是來推動中國的民主化的我自己是懷疑這件事情可是我並不反對用在兩岸互動上但前提很清楚他是價值導向的而不是反而是要讓臺灣受制於更多中國的影響力跟控制的尤其是在他當前的這個\n\n19\n00:07:02,709 --> 00:07:27,967\n價值觀包括政治價值的這個關鍵裡面這部分我是要跟部長也包括現在執行長在這邊但我們很希望接下來民主基金會的運作能夠堅守價值今天到底是誰當執行長誰當什麼這個事情是另外一回事我們今天不討論這個問題但就經營的方向上很清楚我們看到現在一帶路甚至已經被很多人權的組織已經在批判他其實是迫害人權的\n\n20\n00:07:28,687 --> 00:07:54,859\n所以我今天也不再去追究說為什麼當年做這個補助也許當年對於代入的看法跟現在大家事後實證的看法確實有不一樣也許有可能依據時間的演變有不同可是我希望我們可以記取這個教訓我們可以記取這個教訓要把我們中國的外交資源繼續堅守價值取向價值優先的狀況之下這是我們的期許那部長接下來我要跟你再請教的問題是說\n\n21\n00:07:56,533 --> 00:08:19,133\n因為這幾次包括去年我也去參加這個杜拜的COP28那我們自己感覺到確實我們在參與這個COP的過程裡面其實受到了來自中國還是有很多的打壓那不然我之前我們有跟經濟部在其他委員會質詢的時候其實有提到我在參與了幾次以後我自己認為\n\n22\n00:08:20,936 --> 00:08:22,057\n國際戰略不夠清楚\n\n23\n00:08:45,575 --> 00:09:09,830\n我們現在可能比較多都是去參與像COP的會議沒有錯可是COP因為有中國的因素也包括它可能是聯合國下面的機制我們的參與相對困難但我認為如果這是一個全球的議程的話它可能不是只是發生在聯合國下的機制而已當然UFCCC很重要我們也希望盡力的能夠實質的參與沒有錯可是我更覺得\n\n24\n00:09:10,951 --> 00:09:30,032\n我們恐怕是需要來定一個氣候跟近鄰的整體的國際戰略的專案這個戰略的專案裡面可能包括幾件事情也許有很多國際上面重要的近鄰的技術是不是可以更快速的或更敏捷的引入台灣這可能是一個技術方面的事情\n\n25\n00:09:30,532 --> 00:09:54,539\n第二個不要忘了我們有很多我們太平洋的友邦其實是在氣候談判裡面非常非常重要被認為是小島國家聯盟當然我們這幾年可能透過國和會有跟他們有一些在條事上面的補助可是我真的覺得我們還可以跟他們在關係上面更加的加深甚至我們在很多氣候談判上面我們也可以支持這些小島國家我們太平洋的友邦國家的立場\n\n26\n00:09:55,279 --> 00:10:10,272\n其實我們應該要更深度的跟這些太平洋的友邦小島國家聯盟結合也許可以讓我們在未來的氣候發生上面更具有發言權這也是我們可以在國際戰略的一個部分當然更多現在大家企業很關心\n\n27\n00:10:11,193 --> 00:10:27,726\n國際上要收碳關稅國際要不要碳邊境調整機制這是制度上面國際上面的變革我們也應該掌握得更清楚所以我這邊是想跟部長談我其實之前也跟經濟部也跟我們的環境部談過了我們其實應該要跟行政院提一個要有一個氣候的\n\n28\n00:10:29,087 --> 00:10:51,998\n國際戰略的專案也許裡面包括外交部包括經濟部包括環境部大家從一個國家發展尤其是氣候整體假設這已經牽涉到國家戰略的問題的時候有一個這樣的高度來配置相關的資源而不是只是每年我們大概就花比較多的力氣是在處理每年年底的扣可是當然我們參與這都很辛苦我知道我們很多外交人員包括司長\n\n29\n00:10:52,558 --> 00:10:52,678\n我贊成\n\n30\n00:11:22,557 --> 00:11:42,523\n我贊成,那我這邊如果有機會的話我跟那個行政院那邊建議,我覺得這個非常好那我覺得這比較能夠擺脫我們過去幾年其實有的時候參與上面是算挫敗的感受可是這是我們做得到的事情而且我們也有這個基礎我們很希望接下來國會可以跟外交部也包括跟國安單位甚至行政院我們可以一起來針對這個事情來合作\n\n31\n00:11:44,584 --> 00:12:04,842\n部長我也希望如果你有這個構想的話能不能夠比方說也許一兩個月之間我們可以針對這件事情大家再深入的來交換一下意見怎麼來跟行政院來提出這個事情希望我們今年就有一個比較明顯的改變拉高我們再處理戰略高度好不好我非常的歡迎我也會感到很榮幸來跟委員做這個探討好部長謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1011\t21173\t請吳部長有請部長部長好今天大家都很關心這個太平島的問題不過今天還是想針對其實我們重要的外交政策來跟部長請教是好下一張\n23806\t38971\t部長 你知不知道當初為什麼我們臺灣也就是在貶政府時代要成立這個其實我覺得它比較像是一個國家層級的這個民主基金會但是它是一個民間團體但是為什麼要成立民主基金會\n39964\t59394\t非常謝謝委員問這個問題這個是在2002年的時候我雖然說那時候在擔任那個總統府的那個副秘書長那多少也有參與這些討論那當時是看到我們台灣就是那個我們那個對外宣示就是要民主立國\n60294\t87348\t那要用民主來立國用民主來推動我們外交的話那我們就必須要有一個很好的一個機制那所以那時候就討論像美國的那個民主基金會阿德國的諾曼基金會等等的就是去學習其他國家的經驗在我們台灣也成立一個國家級的這個民主基金會透過民主基金會來跟其他的民主國家來共同推動國際社會的這個民主化\n88066\t115273\t部長所以看起來在民主基金會裡面除了他也是我們外交政策的重要的一環以外看起來他一個非常非常重要的關鍵是他應該是價值導向的部長沒有錯也就是我們是把民主自由包括人權等等的價值希望能夠深入的植入我們的外交政策中甚至變成是我們的一個外交戰略所以我們當年成立了民主基金會這樣沒有錯吧對不對沒有錯好那部長我想請問\n117574\t144048\t這個 下一張齁這個你知不知道我們在2015年的時候當年的民主基金會我現在在我們的這個民主基金會的年報上面看到這個資料當年其實我們補助了這個所謂中國雅投行與一帶一路的倡議那部長知不知道這件事情我並不知道這件事情因為那個民主基金會它就變成一個獨立運作的一個單位是 執行長知不知道\n147080\t166391\t這是發生在我接執行長之前那我知道這個訊息這是2015年的時候的事情這個部長想請教這個從現在的角度來看一帶路是民主輸出是中國的民主輸出還是中國的威權輸出\n168270\t168470\t李卓人議員\n188861\t204419\t為斯里蘭卡帶來了腐敗跟債務包括一些參與一帶一路的國家尼泊爾徹查他們興建中的這個機場的基礎現設相關的費用的問題再來那我們也看到義大利大概已經說了他要退出一帶一路\n205000\t231516\t也包括這個肯尼亞這個BBC的新聞其實對於要跟中國合作這一條鐵路其實有非常非常多的猶豫這裡面除了基礎建設本身建設的經費問題以外更大的程度大家意識到其實中國也包括習近平主席是透過一帶一路來把他們的這個威權包括他們正體的影響力希望透過一帶一路在更大幅度的擴散\n232056\t232796\t民主基金會的支援\n256487\t281187\t還適不適合應用在像這種補助一帶一路倡議的這樣相關的活動裡面部長非常謝謝委員剛剛的這個闡述的確是非常發人深省就是我們看到很多的歐洲的國家退出了本來是17加1變成16加1現在已經變成14加1了現在甚至是大家都不開胃了就是因為大家擔心到那個威權的這個擴張的這個問題\n283609\t283889\t臺灣的民主\n298812\t298912\t主席\n321018\t342408\t部長我們看到這些過去的當然從2015以前的資料我們其實看當時民主基金會做了或補助了蠻多跟兩岸統合或兩岸互動有關的事情但我要說的一個事情說其實我坦白說我並不反對民主基金會的資源用在所謂的兩岸互動上但我覺得一個重要的前提是我們剛才講的\n343729\t367055\t如果這個兩岸互動的活動或者是兩岸互動的這個過程其實是來推進民主化的我覺得我自己我願意支持比方說如果民主基金會的活動是用在發展有助於發展中國的公民社會民主自由蓬勃的發展的我自己支持我覺得這也很好\n368431\t395712\t這也是國際很多重要的民主工作非常非常重要的一環也包括有很多的國際組織也都是在看中國的民主化有沒有可能再更進一步當然最近這段這幾年讓大家是很失望的所以我說不是說不能夠用在兩岸的工作上面不是用在互動上不是但前提是他要帶有是推進自由人權民主價值的但我當然現在很懷疑習主席\n397474\t421288\t臺灣之間假設他規劃跟臺灣的互動的話他會不會容許我們是來這個活動是來推動中國的民主化的我自己是懷疑這件事情可是我並不反對用在兩岸互動上但前提很清楚他是價值導向的而不是反而是要讓臺灣受制於更多中國的影響力跟控制的尤其是在他當前的這個\n422709\t447967\t價值觀包括政治價值的這個關鍵裡面這部分我是要跟部長也包括現在執行長在這邊但我們很希望接下來民主基金會的運作能夠堅守價值今天到底是誰當執行長誰當什麼這個事情是另外一回事我們今天不討論這個問題但就經營的方向上很清楚我們看到現在一帶路甚至已經被很多人權的組織已經在批判他其實是迫害人權的\n448687\t474859\t所以我今天也不再去追究說為什麼當年做這個補助也許當年對於代入的看法跟現在大家事後實證的看法確實有不一樣也許有可能依據時間的演變有不同可是我希望我們可以記取這個教訓我們可以記取這個教訓要把我們中國的外交資源繼續堅守價值取向價值優先的狀況之下這是我們的期許那部長接下來我要跟你再請教的問題是說\n476533\t499133\t因為這幾次包括去年我也去參加這個杜拜的COP28那我們自己感覺到確實我們在參與這個COP的過程裡面其實受到了來自中國還是有很多的打壓那不然我之前我們有跟經濟部在其他委員會質詢的時候其實有提到我在參與了幾次以後我自己認為\n500936\t502057\t國際戰略不夠清楚\n525575\t549830\t我們現在可能比較多都是去參與像COP的會議沒有錯可是COP因為有中國的因素也包括它可能是聯合國下面的機制我們的參與相對困難但我認為如果這是一個全球的議程的話它可能不是只是發生在聯合國下的機制而已當然UFCCC很重要我們也希望盡力的能夠實質的參與沒有錯可是我更覺得\n550951\t570032\t我們恐怕是需要來定一個氣候跟近鄰的整體的國際戰略的專案這個戰略的專案裡面可能包括幾件事情也許有很多國際上面重要的近鄰的技術是不是可以更快速的或更敏捷的引入台灣這可能是一個技術方面的事情\n570532\t594539\t第二個不要忘了我們有很多我們太平洋的友邦其實是在氣候談判裡面非常非常重要被認為是小島國家聯盟當然我們這幾年可能透過國和會有跟他們有一些在條事上面的補助可是我真的覺得我們還可以跟他們在關係上面更加的加深甚至我們在很多氣候談判上面我們也可以支持這些小島國家我們太平洋的友邦國家的立場\n595279\t610272\t其實我們應該要更深度的跟這些太平洋的友邦小島國家聯盟結合也許可以讓我們在未來的氣候發生上面更具有發言權這也是我們可以在國際戰略的一個部分當然更多現在大家企業很關心\n611193\t627726\t國際上要收碳關稅國際要不要碳邊境調整機制這是制度上面國際上面的變革我們也應該掌握得更清楚所以我這邊是想跟部長談我其實之前也跟經濟部也跟我們的環境部談過了我們其實應該要跟行政院提一個要有一個氣候的\n629087\t651998\t國際戰略的專案也許裡面包括外交部包括經濟部包括環境部大家從一個國家發展尤其是氣候整體假設這已經牽涉到國家戰略的問題的時候有一個這樣的高度來配置相關的資源而不是只是每年我們大概就花比較多的力氣是在處理每年年底的扣可是當然我們參與這都很辛苦我知道我們很多外交人員包括司長\n652558\t652678\t我贊成\n682557\t702523\t我贊成,那我這邊如果有機會的話我跟那個行政院那邊建議,我覺得這個非常好那我覺得這比較能夠擺脫我們過去幾年其實有的時候參與上面是算挫敗的感受可是這是我們做得到的事情而且我們也有這個基礎我們很希望接下來國會可以跟外交部也包括跟國安單位甚至行政院我們可以一起來針對這個事情來合作\n704584\t724842\t部長我也希望如果你有這個構想的話能不能夠比方說也許一兩個月之間我們可以針對這件事情大家再深入的來交換一下意見怎麼來跟行政院來提出這個事情希望我們今年就有一個比較明顯的改變拉高我們再處理戰略高度好不好我非常的歡迎我也會感到很榮幸來跟委員做這個探討好部長謝謝謝謝委員\n","txt":"請吳部長有請部長部長好今天大家都很關心這個太平島的問題不過今天還是想針對其實我們重要的外交政策來跟部長請教是好下一張\n部長 你知不知道當初為什麼我們臺灣也就是在貶政府時代要成立這個其實我覺得它比較像是一個國家層級的這個民主基金會但是它是一個民間團體但是為什麼要成立民主基金會\n非常謝謝委員問這個問題這個是在2002年的時候我雖然說那時候在擔任那個總統府的那個副秘書長那多少也有參與這些討論那當時是看到我們台灣就是那個我們那個對外宣示就是要民主立國\n那要用民主來立國用民主來推動我們外交的話那我們就必須要有一個很好的一個機制那所以那時候就討論像美國的那個民主基金會阿德國的諾曼基金會等等的就是去學習其他國家的經驗在我們台灣也成立一個國家級的這個民主基金會透過民主基金會來跟其他的民主國家來共同推動國際社會的這個民主化\n部長所以看起來在民主基金會裡面除了他也是我們外交政策的重要的一環以外看起來他一個非常非常重要的關鍵是他應該是價值導向的部長沒有錯也就是我們是把民主自由包括人權等等的價值希望能夠深入的植入我們的外交政策中甚至變成是我們的一個外交戰略所以我們當年成立了民主基金會這樣沒有錯吧對不對沒有錯好那部長我想請問\n這個 下一張齁這個你知不知道我們在2015年的時候當年的民主基金會我現在在我們的這個民主基金會的年報上面看到這個資料當年其實我們補助了這個所謂中國雅投行與一帶一路的倡議那部長知不知道這件事情我並不知道這件事情因為那個民主基金會它就變成一個獨立運作的一個單位是 執行長知不知道\n這是發生在我接執行長之前那我知道這個訊息這是2015年的時候的事情這個部長想請教這個從現在的角度來看一帶路是民主輸出是中國的民主輸出還是中國的威權輸出\n李卓人議員\n為斯里蘭卡帶來了腐敗跟債務包括一些參與一帶一路的國家尼泊爾徹查他們興建中的這個機場的基礎現設相關的費用的問題再來那我們也看到義大利大概已經說了他要退出一帶一路\n也包括這個肯尼亞這個BBC的新聞其實對於要跟中國合作這一條鐵路其實有非常非常多的猶豫這裡面除了基礎建設本身建設的經費問題以外更大的程度大家意識到其實中國也包括習近平主席是透過一帶一路來把他們的這個威權包括他們正體的影響力希望透過一帶一路在更大幅度的擴散\n民主基金會的支援\n還適不適合應用在像這種補助一帶一路倡議的這樣相關的活動裡面部長非常謝謝委員剛剛的這個闡述的確是非常發人深省就是我們看到很多的歐洲的國家退出了本來是17加1變成16加1現在已經變成14加1了現在甚至是大家都不開胃了就是因為大家擔心到那個威權的這個擴張的這個問題\n臺灣的民主\n主席\n部長我們看到這些過去的當然從2015以前的資料我們其實看當時民主基金會做了或補助了蠻多跟兩岸統合或兩岸互動有關的事情但我要說的一個事情說其實我坦白說我並不反對民主基金會的資源用在所謂的兩岸互動上但我覺得一個重要的前提是我們剛才講的\n如果這個兩岸互動的活動或者是兩岸互動的這個過程其實是來推進民主化的我覺得我自己我願意支持比方說如果民主基金會的活動是用在發展有助於發展中國的公民社會民主自由蓬勃的發展的我自己支持我覺得這也很好\n這也是國際很多重要的民主工作非常非常重要的一環也包括有很多的國際組織也都是在看中國的民主化有沒有可能再更進一步當然最近這段這幾年讓大家是很失望的所以我說不是說不能夠用在兩岸的工作上面不是用在互動上不是但前提是他要帶有是推進自由人權民主價值的但我當然現在很懷疑習主席\n臺灣之間假設他規劃跟臺灣的互動的話他會不會容許我們是來這個活動是來推動中國的民主化的我自己是懷疑這件事情可是我並不反對用在兩岸互動上但前提很清楚他是價值導向的而不是反而是要讓臺灣受制於更多中國的影響力跟控制的尤其是在他當前的這個\n價值觀包括政治價值的這個關鍵裡面這部分我是要跟部長也包括現在執行長在這邊但我們很希望接下來民主基金會的運作能夠堅守價值今天到底是誰當執行長誰當什麼這個事情是另外一回事我們今天不討論這個問題但就經營的方向上很清楚我們看到現在一帶路甚至已經被很多人權的組織已經在批判他其實是迫害人權的\n所以我今天也不再去追究說為什麼當年做這個補助也許當年對於代入的看法跟現在大家事後實證的看法確實有不一樣也許有可能依據時間的演變有不同可是我希望我們可以記取這個教訓我們可以記取這個教訓要把我們中國的外交資源繼續堅守價值取向價值優先的狀況之下這是我們的期許那部長接下來我要跟你再請教的問題是說\n因為這幾次包括去年我也去參加這個杜拜的COP28那我們自己感覺到確實我們在參與這個COP的過程裡面其實受到了來自中國還是有很多的打壓那不然我之前我們有跟經濟部在其他委員會質詢的時候其實有提到我在參與了幾次以後我自己認為\n國際戰略不夠清楚\n我們現在可能比較多都是去參與像COP的會議沒有錯可是COP因為有中國的因素也包括它可能是聯合國下面的機制我們的參與相對困難但我認為如果這是一個全球的議程的話它可能不是只是發生在聯合國下的機制而已當然UFCCC很重要我們也希望盡力的能夠實質的參與沒有錯可是我更覺得\n我們恐怕是需要來定一個氣候跟近鄰的整體的國際戰略的專案這個戰略的專案裡面可能包括幾件事情也許有很多國際上面重要的近鄰的技術是不是可以更快速的或更敏捷的引入台灣這可能是一個技術方面的事情\n第二個不要忘了我們有很多我們太平洋的友邦其實是在氣候談判裡面非常非常重要被認為是小島國家聯盟當然我們這幾年可能透過國和會有跟他們有一些在條事上面的補助可是我真的覺得我們還可以跟他們在關係上面更加的加深甚至我們在很多氣候談判上面我們也可以支持這些小島國家我們太平洋的友邦國家的立場\n其實我們應該要更深度的跟這些太平洋的友邦小島國家聯盟結合也許可以讓我們在未來的氣候發生上面更具有發言權這也是我們可以在國際戰略的一個部分當然更多現在大家企業很關心\n國際上要收碳關稅國際要不要碳邊境調整機制這是制度上面國際上面的變革我們也應該掌握得更清楚所以我這邊是想跟部長談我其實之前也跟經濟部也跟我們的環境部談過了我們其實應該要跟行政院提一個要有一個氣候的\n國際戰略的專案也許裡面包括外交部包括經濟部包括環境部大家從一個國家發展尤其是氣候整體假設這已經牽涉到國家戰略的問題的時候有一個這樣的高度來配置相關的資源而不是只是每年我們大概就花比較多的力氣是在處理每年年底的扣可是當然我們參與這都很辛苦我知道我們很多外交人員包括司長\n我贊成\n我贊成,那我這邊如果有機會的話我跟那個行政院那邊建議,我覺得這個非常好那我覺得這比較能夠擺脫我們過去幾年其實有的時候參與上面是算挫敗的感受可是這是我們做得到的事情而且我們也有這個基礎我們很希望接下來國會可以跟外交部也包括跟國安單位甚至行政院我們可以一起來針對這個事情來合作\n部長我也希望如果你有這個構想的話能不能夠比方說也許一兩個月之間我們可以針對這件事情大家再深入的來交換一下意見怎麼來跟行政院來提出這個事情希望我們今年就有一個比較明顯的改變拉高我們再處理戰略高度好不好我非常的歡迎我也會感到很榮幸來跟委員做這個探討好部長謝謝謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.011 --> 00:21.173\n請吳部長有請部長部長好今天大家都很關心這個太平島的問題不過今天還是想針對其實我們重要的外交政策來跟部長請教是好下一張\n\n00:23.806 --> 00:38.971\n部長你知不知道當初為什麼我們臺灣也就是在貶政府時代要成立這個其實我覺得它比較像是一個國家層級的這個民主基金會但是它是一個民間團體但是為什麼要成立民主基金會\n\n00:39.964 --> 00:59.394\n非常謝謝委員問這個問題這個是在2002年的時候我雖然說那時候在擔任那個總統府的那個副秘書長那多少也有參與這些討論那當時是看到我們台灣就是那個我們那個對外宣示就是要民主立國\n\n01:00.294 --> 01:27.348\n那要用民主來立國用民主來推動我們外交的話那我們就必須要有一個很好的一個機制那所以那時候就討論像美國的那個民主基金會阿德國的諾曼基金會等等的就是去學習其他國家的經驗在我們台灣也成立一個國家級的這個民主基金會透過民主基金會來跟其他的民主國家來共同推動國際社會的這個民主化\n\n01:28.066 --> 01:55.273\n部長所以看起來在民主基金會裡面除了他也是我們外交政策的重要的一環以外看起來他一個非常非常重要的關鍵是他應該是價值導向的部長沒有錯也就是我們是把民主自由包括人權等等的價值希望能夠深入的植入我們的外交政策中甚至變成是我們的一個外交戰略所以我們當年成立了民主基金會這樣沒有錯吧對不對沒有錯好那部長我想請問\n\n01:57.574 --> 02:24.048\n這個下一張齁這個你知不知道我們在2015年的時候當年的民主基金會我現在在我們的這個民主基金會的年報上面看到這個資料當年其實我們補助了這個所謂中國雅投行與一帶一路的倡議那部長知不知道這件事情我並不知道這件事情因為那個民主基金會它就變成一個獨立運作的一個單位是執行長知不知道\n\n02:27.080 --> 02:46.391\n這是發生在我接執行長之前那我知道這個訊息這是2015年的時候的事情這個部長想請教這個從現在的角度來看一帶路是民主輸出是中國的民主輸出還是中國的威權輸出\n\n02:48.270 --> 02:48.470\n李卓人議員\n\n03:08.861 --> 03:24.419\n為斯里蘭卡帶來了腐敗跟債務包括一些參與一帶一路的國家尼泊爾徹查他們興建中的這個機場的基礎現設相關的費用的問題再來那我們也看到義大利大概已經說了他要退出一帶一路\n\n03:25.000 --> 03:51.516\n也包括這個肯尼亞這個BBC的新聞其實對於要跟中國合作這一條鐵路其實有非常非常多的猶豫這裡面除了基礎建設本身建設的經費問題以外更大的程度大家意識到其實中國也包括習近平主席是透過一帶一路來把他們的這個威權包括他們正體的影響力希望透過一帶一路在更大幅度的擴散\n\n03:52.056 --> 03:52.796\n民主基金會的支援\n\n04:16.487 --> 04:41.187\n還適不適合應用在像這種補助一帶一路倡議的這樣相關的活動裡面部長非常謝謝委員剛剛的這個闡述的確是非常發人深省就是我們看到很多的歐洲的國家退出了本來是17加1變成16加1現在已經變成14加1了現在甚至是大家都不開胃了就是因為大家擔心到那個威權的這個擴張的這個問題\n\n04:43.609 --> 04:43.889\n臺灣的民主\n\n04:58.812 --> 04:58.912\n主席\n\n05:21.018 --> 05:42.408\n部長我們看到這些過去的當然從2015以前的資料我們其實看當時民主基金會做了或補助了蠻多跟兩岸統合或兩岸互動有關的事情但我要說的一個事情說其實我坦白說我並不反對民主基金會的資源用在所謂的兩岸互動上但我覺得一個重要的前提是我們剛才講的\n\n05:43.729 --> 06:07.055\n如果這個兩岸互動的活動或者是兩岸互動的這個過程其實是來推進民主化的我覺得我自己我願意支持比方說如果民主基金會的活動是用在發展有助於發展中國的公民社會民主自由蓬勃的發展的我自己支持我覺得這也很好\n\n06:08.431 --> 06:35.712\n這也是國際很多重要的民主工作非常非常重要的一環也包括有很多的國際組織也都是在看中國的民主化有沒有可能再更進一步當然最近這段這幾年讓大家是很失望的所以我說不是說不能夠用在兩岸的工作上面不是用在互動上不是但前提是他要帶有是推進自由人權民主價值的但我當然現在很懷疑習主席\n\n06:37.474 --> 07:01.288\n臺灣之間假設他規劃跟臺灣的互動的話他會不會容許我們是來這個活動是來推動中國的民主化的我自己是懷疑這件事情可是我並不反對用在兩岸互動上但前提很清楚他是價值導向的而不是反而是要讓臺灣受制於更多中國的影響力跟控制的尤其是在他當前的這個\n\n07:02.709 --> 07:27.967\n價值觀包括政治價值的這個關鍵裡面這部分我是要跟部長也包括現在執行長在這邊但我們很希望接下來民主基金會的運作能夠堅守價值今天到底是誰當執行長誰當什麼這個事情是另外一回事我們今天不討論這個問題但就經營的方向上很清楚我們看到現在一帶路甚至已經被很多人權的組織已經在批判他其實是迫害人權的\n\n07:28.687 --> 07:54.859\n所以我今天也不再去追究說為什麼當年做這個補助也許當年對於代入的看法跟現在大家事後實證的看法確實有不一樣也許有可能依據時間的演變有不同可是我希望我們可以記取這個教訓我們可以記取這個教訓要把我們中國的外交資源繼續堅守價值取向價值優先的狀況之下這是我們的期許那部長接下來我要跟你再請教的問題是說\n\n07:56.533 --> 08:19.133\n因為這幾次包括去年我也去參加這個杜拜的COP28那我們自己感覺到確實我們在參與這個COP的過程裡面其實受到了來自中國還是有很多的打壓那不然我之前我們有跟經濟部在其他委員會質詢的時候其實有提到我在參與了幾次以後我自己認為\n\n08:20.936 --> 08:22.057\n國際戰略不夠清楚\n\n08:45.575 --> 09:09.830\n我們現在可能比較多都是去參與像COP的會議沒有錯可是COP因為有中國的因素也包括它可能是聯合國下面的機制我們的參與相對困難但我認為如果這是一個全球的議程的話它可能不是只是發生在聯合國下的機制而已當然UFCCC很重要我們也希望盡力的能夠實質的參與沒有錯可是我更覺得\n\n09:10.951 --> 09:30.032\n我們恐怕是需要來定一個氣候跟近鄰的整體的國際戰略的專案這個戰略的專案裡面可能包括幾件事情也許有很多國際上面重要的近鄰的技術是不是可以更快速的或更敏捷的引入台灣這可能是一個技術方面的事情\n\n09:30.532 --> 09:54.539\n第二個不要忘了我們有很多我們太平洋的友邦其實是在氣候談判裡面非常非常重要被認為是小島國家聯盟當然我們這幾年可能透過國和會有跟他們有一些在條事上面的補助可是我真的覺得我們還可以跟他們在關係上面更加的加深甚至我們在很多氣候談判上面我們也可以支持這些小島國家我們太平洋的友邦國家的立場\n\n09:55.279 --> 10:10.272\n其實我們應該要更深度的跟這些太平洋的友邦小島國家聯盟結合也許可以讓我們在未來的氣候發生上面更具有發言權這也是我們可以在國際戰略的一個部分當然更多現在大家企業很關心\n\n10:11.193 --> 10:27.726\n國際上要收碳關稅國際要不要碳邊境調整機制這是制度上面國際上面的變革我們也應該掌握得更清楚所以我這邊是想跟部長談我其實之前也跟經濟部也跟我們的環境部談過了我們其實應該要跟行政院提一個要有一個氣候的\n\n10:29.087 --> 10:51.998\n國際戰略的專案也許裡面包括外交部包括經濟部包括環境部大家從一個國家發展尤其是氣候整體假設這已經牽涉到國家戰略的問題的時候有一個這樣的高度來配置相關的資源而不是只是每年我們大概就花比較多的力氣是在處理每年年底的扣可是當然我們參與這都很辛苦我知道我們很多外交人員包括司長\n\n10:52.558 --> 10:52.678\n我贊成\n\n11:22.557 --> 11:42.523\n我贊成,那我這邊如果有機會的話我跟那個行政院那邊建議,我覺得這個非常好那我覺得這比較能夠擺脫我們過去幾年其實有的時候參與上面是算挫敗的感受可是這是我們做得到的事情而且我們也有這個基礎我們很希望接下來國會可以跟外交部也包括跟國安單位甚至行政院我們可以一起來針對這個事情來合作\n\n11:44.584 --> 12:04.842\n部長我也希望如果你有這個構想的話能不能夠比方說也許一兩個月之間我們可以針對這件事情大家再深入的來交換一下意見怎麼來跟行政院來提出這個事情希望我們今年就有一個比較明顯的改變拉高我們再處理戰略高度好不好我非常的歡迎我也會感到很榮幸來跟委員做這個探討好部長謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.011,"end":21.173,"text":"請吳部長有請部長部長好今天大家都很關心這個太平島的問題不過今天還是想針對其實我們重要的外交政策來跟部長請教是好下一張"},{"start":23.806,"end":38.971,"text":"部長 你知不知道當初為什麼我們臺灣也就是在貶政府時代要成立這個其實我覺得它比較像是一個國家層級的這個民主基金會但是它是一個民間團體但是為什麼要成立民主基金會"},{"start":39.964,"end":59.394,"text":"非常謝謝委員問這個問題這個是在2002年的時候我雖然說那時候在擔任那個總統府的那個副秘書長那多少也有參與這些討論那當時是看到我們台灣就是那個我們那個對外宣示就是要民主立國"},{"start":60.294,"end":87.348,"text":"那要用民主來立國用民主來推動我們外交的話那我們就必須要有一個很好的一個機制那所以那時候就討論像美國的那個民主基金會阿德國的諾曼基金會等等的就是去學習其他國家的經驗在我們台灣也成立一個國家級的這個民主基金會透過民主基金會來跟其他的民主國家來共同推動國際社會的這個民主化"},{"start":88.066,"end":115.273,"text":"部長所以看起來在民主基金會裡面除了他也是我們外交政策的重要的一環以外看起來他一個非常非常重要的關鍵是他應該是價值導向的部長沒有錯也就是我們是把民主自由包括人權等等的價值希望能夠深入的植入我們的外交政策中甚至變成是我們的一個外交戰略所以我們當年成立了民主基金會這樣沒有錯吧對不對沒有錯好那部長我想請問"},{"start":117.574,"end":144.048,"text":"這個 下一張齁這個你知不知道我們在2015年的時候當年的民主基金會我現在在我們的這個民主基金會的年報上面看到這個資料當年其實我們補助了這個所謂中國雅投行與一帶一路的倡議那部長知不知道這件事情我並不知道這件事情因為那個民主基金會它就變成一個獨立運作的一個單位是 執行長知不知道"},{"start":147.08,"end":166.391,"text":"這是發生在我接執行長之前那我知道這個訊息這是2015年的時候的事情這個部長想請教這個從現在的角度來看一帶路是民主輸出是中國的民主輸出還是中國的威權輸出"},{"start":168.27,"end":168.47,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":188.861,"end":204.419,"text":"為斯里蘭卡帶來了腐敗跟債務包括一些參與一帶一路的國家尼泊爾徹查他們興建中的這個機場的基礎現設相關的費用的問題再來那我們也看到義大利大概已經說了他要退出一帶一路"},{"start":205,"end":231.516,"text":"也包括這個肯尼亞這個BBC的新聞其實對於要跟中國合作這一條鐵路其實有非常非常多的猶豫這裡面除了基礎建設本身建設的經費問題以外更大的程度大家意識到其實中國也包括習近平主席是透過一帶一路來把他們的這個威權包括他們正體的影響力希望透過一帶一路在更大幅度的擴散"},{"start":232.056,"end":232.796,"text":"民主基金會的支援"},{"start":256.487,"end":281.187,"text":"還適不適合應用在像這種補助一帶一路倡議的這樣相關的活動裡面部長非常謝謝委員剛剛的這個闡述的確是非常發人深省就是我們看到很多的歐洲的國家退出了本來是17加1變成16加1現在已經變成14加1了現在甚至是大家都不開胃了就是因為大家擔心到那個威權的這個擴張的這個問題"},{"start":283.609,"end":283.889,"text":"臺灣的民主"},{"start":298.812,"end":298.912,"text":"主席"},{"start":321.018,"end":342.408,"text":"部長我們看到這些過去的當然從2015以前的資料我們其實看當時民主基金會做了或補助了蠻多跟兩岸統合或兩岸互動有關的事情但我要說的一個事情說其實我坦白說我並不反對民主基金會的資源用在所謂的兩岸互動上但我覺得一個重要的前提是我們剛才講的"},{"start":343.729,"end":367.055,"text":"如果這個兩岸互動的活動或者是兩岸互動的這個過程其實是來推進民主化的我覺得我自己我願意支持比方說如果民主基金會的活動是用在發展有助於發展中國的公民社會民主自由蓬勃的發展的我自己支持我覺得這也很好"},{"start":368.431,"end":395.712,"text":"這也是國際很多重要的民主工作非常非常重要的一環也包括有很多的國際組織也都是在看中國的民主化有沒有可能再更進一步當然最近這段這幾年讓大家是很失望的所以我說不是說不能夠用在兩岸的工作上面不是用在互動上不是但前提是他要帶有是推進自由人權民主價值的但我當然現在很懷疑習主席"},{"start":397.474,"end":421.288,"text":"臺灣之間假設他規劃跟臺灣的互動的話他會不會容許我們是來這個活動是來推動中國的民主化的我自己是懷疑這件事情可是我並不反對用在兩岸互動上但前提很清楚他是價值導向的而不是反而是要讓臺灣受制於更多中國的影響力跟控制的尤其是在他當前的這個"},{"start":422.709,"end":447.967,"text":"價值觀包括政治價值的這個關鍵裡面這部分我是要跟部長也包括現在執行長在這邊但我們很希望接下來民主基金會的運作能夠堅守價值今天到底是誰當執行長誰當什麼這個事情是另外一回事我們今天不討論這個問題但就經營的方向上很清楚我們看到現在一帶路甚至已經被很多人權的組織已經在批判他其實是迫害人權的"},{"start":448.687,"end":474.859,"text":"所以我今天也不再去追究說為什麼當年做這個補助也許當年對於代入的看法跟現在大家事後實證的看法確實有不一樣也許有可能依據時間的演變有不同可是我希望我們可以記取這個教訓我們可以記取這個教訓要把我們中國的外交資源繼續堅守價值取向價值優先的狀況之下這是我們的期許那部長接下來我要跟你再請教的問題是說"},{"start":476.533,"end":499.133,"text":"因為這幾次包括去年我也去參加這個杜拜的COP28那我們自己感覺到確實我們在參與這個COP的過程裡面其實受到了來自中國還是有很多的打壓那不然我之前我們有跟經濟部在其他委員會質詢的時候其實有提到我在參與了幾次以後我自己認為"},{"start":500.936,"end":502.057,"text":"國際戰略不夠清楚"},{"start":525.575,"end":549.83,"text":"我們現在可能比較多都是去參與像COP的會議沒有錯可是COP因為有中國的因素也包括它可能是聯合國下面的機制我們的參與相對困難但我認為如果這是一個全球的議程的話它可能不是只是發生在聯合國下的機制而已當然UFCCC很重要我們也希望盡力的能夠實質的參與沒有錯可是我更覺得"},{"start":550.951,"end":570.032,"text":"我們恐怕是需要來定一個氣候跟近鄰的整體的國際戰略的專案這個戰略的專案裡面可能包括幾件事情也許有很多國際上面重要的近鄰的技術是不是可以更快速的或更敏捷的引入台灣這可能是一個技術方面的事情"},{"start":570.532,"end":594.539,"text":"第二個不要忘了我們有很多我們太平洋的友邦其實是在氣候談判裡面非常非常重要被認為是小島國家聯盟當然我們這幾年可能透過國和會有跟他們有一些在條事上面的補助可是我真的覺得我們還可以跟他們在關係上面更加的加深甚至我們在很多氣候談判上面我們也可以支持這些小島國家我們太平洋的友邦國家的立場"},{"start":595.279,"end":610.272,"text":"其實我們應該要更深度的跟這些太平洋的友邦小島國家聯盟結合也許可以讓我們在未來的氣候發生上面更具有發言權這也是我們可以在國際戰略的一個部分當然更多現在大家企業很關心"},{"start":611.193,"end":627.726,"text":"國際上要收碳關稅國際要不要碳邊境調整機制這是制度上面國際上面的變革我們也應該掌握得更清楚所以我這邊是想跟部長談我其實之前也跟經濟部也跟我們的環境部談過了我們其實應該要跟行政院提一個要有一個氣候的"},{"start":629.087,"end":651.998,"text":"國際戰略的專案也許裡面包括外交部包括經濟部包括環境部大家從一個國家發展尤其是氣候整體假設這已經牽涉到國家戰略的問題的時候有一個這樣的高度來配置相關的資源而不是只是每年我們大概就花比較多的力氣是在處理每年年底的扣可是當然我們參與這都很辛苦我知道我們很多外交人員包括司長"},{"start":652.558,"end":652.678,"text":"我贊成"},{"start":682.557,"end":702.523,"text":"我贊成,那我這邊如果有機會的話我跟那個行政院那邊建議,我覺得這個非常好那我覺得這比較能夠擺脫我們過去幾年其實有的時候參與上面是算挫敗的感受可是這是我們做得到的事情而且我們也有這個基礎我們很希望接下來國會可以跟外交部也包括跟國安單位甚至行政院我們可以一起來針對這個事情來合作"},{"start":704.584,"end":724.842,"text":"部長我也希望如果你有這個構想的話能不能夠比方說也許一兩個月之間我們可以針對這件事情大家再深入的來交換一下意見怎麼來跟行政院來提出這個事情希望我們今年就有一個比較明顯的改變拉高我們再處理戰略高度好不好我非常的歡迎我也會感到很榮幸來跟委員做這個探討好部長謝謝謝謝委員"}]}}}}