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mark，剛才前面的委員也有提到，例如我們把法院或者是地檢署的通知由訴訟平臺來做相關的告知，而不是電子簽章法沒有辦法通過，但它也是一個詐騙的樣態，是不是？所以你今天能不能告訴我們，這個電子簽章法就算通過以後，你認為對於詐騙的件數跟樣態到底能降低多少？其實我也問過了其他相關的部會，不管是法務部或者是金管會，他們對於他們在業務端，就是金融機構裡面、在地檢署裡面相關辦理的案件，甚至是法院對於案件的審理等等，他們都已經提高相對的比例。但是我們怎麼樣相信數位部對於相關的技術層面以及所有的程序部分，可以做好規劃以及能夠提供相關的技術給各個部會、跨部會的部分？這也就是現在民眾對於數發部最大疑慮的部分，請你說明。"],["唐部長鳳：好，謝謝委員關心。我想我們政府的憑證系統，不管內政部的自然人憑證，或者經濟部的工商憑證，或者我們自己發的組織憑證等等，其實它最上位的政府憑證的這個程序一向都是我們的數政司，也就是以前的國發會資管處來進行這方面的規劃，所以它已經很穩定，而且也沒有出什麼問題，已經運作了相當久的時間，從二十幾年前電子簽章法通過到現在，有一個具體的成績，這是第一點。第二個，我們現在也是數位公共建設相關的主要的機關，所以我們蒐集地方的需求、其他部會的需求之後，我們是一次規劃，不管發6,000或者數位核銷等等，一次規劃這個建置，大家如果有領過6,000的話，應該可以瞭解我們在建置系統方面也沒有出什麼問題，所以這些是我們實際的成績。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你講的都是一個非常小的部分，可是我們現在講的是全面性的，我們現在在意的是你把過去的自然人憑證等等相關的簽章變成一個電子簽章，就是for everyone，對不對？如果在這樣子的情況下，例如就能夠降低網路實名制相關的問題等等。但是我們還有其他部分，例如我們剛才說的法院詐騙、地檢詐騙以及相關的網路詐騙，或者是你現在看到的，不只在於YouTube或者是在臉書上面，其實也在於我們的LINE或者是WeChat，或甚至更新的app，就是WhatsApp等等都有相關的詐騙，這個部分你怎麼處理？"],["唐部長鳳：像冒充機關發簡訊的樣態也是我們數政司透過111的平臺來解決，這個我們……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那簡訊的部分你怎麼樣透過電信業者？"],["唐部長鳳：就是簡訊啊！因為我們111這個號碼沒有任何人可以來仿冒，所以任何的機關，甚至台水、台電到年底加起來大概會送1億甚至2億則都有可能，這些大家就可以認明說是111這個號碼，或其他像165等等這些短碼，1開頭的一定是政府機關來發送，這個不用等電子簽章法，我們現在就已經在實施了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：只要111？因為有可能人家就會多一個1啊！對不對？"],["唐部長鳳：沒有，只要1開頭的號碼都是政府專用。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我是說如果它多一個1呢？就是1111什麼的。"],["唐部長鳳：1開頭的事實上民間是不能來使用，也不能來申請。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我是說它如果1空半格然後再……你知道嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：數字上當然比較不容易講。"],["謝委員衣鳯：它看起來就像，就是你在發簡訊的時候也不是很容易清楚地瞭解，是不是？這個東西是怎麼樣子阻隔？大家想要的就是防呆嘛！你就是把民眾當作呆瓜嘛！是不是？大家想要的只是一個防呆機制……"],["唐部長鳳：不是，不是我把民眾當成什麼。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們想要的是我們不要還要花腦筋記得1就是政府的數字，而我們希望的是我們的手機就收不到這種簡訊，有沒有辦法？"],["唐部長鳳：我理解，大宗簡訊部分裡面有附網址，這個網址如果不經登記，就沒有辦法再發出來，這部分NCC已經有做控管，因為這是NCC的職權，但我們在防詐裡面，大家都是聯防的，所以在技術上能夠幫忙的，我們絕對是全力來協助。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，其實我覺得部長你還是要再回去看一下，對於電子簽章法，即便我們今天給它過了，到底對於整體防詐的成效以及對於不同種類的詐騙，或者是你只能規範到部分，那到底是有多大的效率？以及對於整個詐騙的遏止，我們到底還需要在技術平臺上面提供跨部會什麼樣的協助？我認為數發部還有很大一步路要走。"],["唐部長鳳：我想我們本來就主管的電商、第三方支付、遊戲點數，這個成績都滿好的，或者委員剛剛提示的，協助其他部會去進行，像您剛剛提到以訊息為主的這種詐騙，我想未來在打詐專法裡面，當然網路廣告平臺是我們主管，但是其他的不會因為不是我們主管就不幫忙，我們一定全力協助。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝。"],["主席：現在請魯明哲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","葛如鈞","林國成","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","廖先翔","徐富癸","林俊憲","邱若華","游顥","許智傑","蔡其昌","謝衣鳯","魯明哲","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","張啓楷","黃健豪"],"page_start":331,"meetingDate":["2024-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「電子簽章法修正草案」案；二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「電子簽\n章法修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1131601_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"150137","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150137","tool":"pyannote","id":"150137-pyannote"},"job_id":"L0mrGz14RrawlGKn","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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\"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 350.011, \"end\": 350.312, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"走\", \"start\": 350.312, \"end\": 350.332, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 351.172, \"end\": 351.192, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,882 --> 00:00:07,983\n謝謝主席。我想要請唐部長。請部長。唐部長早安。其實我還是對於就是電子簽章法的通過那是否會減低詐騙這樣子的一個樣態以及建樹。我是保持這是一個questionmark那其實剛才\n\n2\n00:01:11,506 --> 00:01:40,787\n就是說在金融機構裡面在地檢署裡面相關的辦理的案件甚至是法院對於案件的審理等等他們都已經提高相對的比例但是我們怎麼樣子相信數位部對於相關的技術層面以及所有的程序部分你們可以做好規劃以及能夠提供相關的技術的相關的給各個部會、跨部會的\n\n3\n00:01:41,387 --> 00:02:00,262\n這個部分那這也就是民眾對於訴發部現在最大疑慮的部分你說明謝謝委員關心我想我們政府的憑證的系統不管內政部的責任憑證或者經濟部的商工憑證等等我們自己發的組織憑證其他最上位的這個政府的憑證的程序\n\n4\n00:02:01,403 --> 00:02:21,116\n一向都是我們的訴政司也就是以前的國發會資管處來進行這方面的規劃所以它已經很穩定而且也沒有出什麼問題已經運作了相當久的時間從20幾年前電子簽章法通過到現在這第一點有一個具體的成績第二個我們現在也是數位公共建設相關的一個主要的機關\n\n5\n00:02:21,816 --> 00:02:36,122\n﹏所以我們搜集地方的需求﹏其他部會的需求之後﹏我們是一次規劃﹏不管發六千﹏或者數位核銷等等﹏一次規劃這個建制﹏這個建制大家如果有領過六千的話﹏應該可以瞭解說我們在建制系統方面﹏也沒有出什麼問題﹏所以這些是我們實際的成績。\n\n6\n00:02:38,844 --> 00:02:59,292\n我說的你講的都是一個非常小的部分可是我們講的是全面性那我們現在在意的是說你把過去的就是說什麼自然人憑證等等相關的簽章然後把它變成一個電子簽章那否就是everyone對不對那如果這樣子的情況下就能夠\n\n7\n00:03:00,532 --> 00:03:30,015\n例如就能夠降低了網路的實名率的相關的問題等等但是我們還有其他部分例如說好了我們剛才說的法院詐騙、地檢詐騙以及相關的網路的詐騙或者是你現在看到的我們其實不只在於YouTube或者是在臉書上面其實在於我們的LINE或者是WeChat甚至更新的APP就是WhatsApp等等\n\n8\n00:03:30,515 --> 00:03:52,595\n都有相關的詐騙,那你這個部分你怎麼...像冒充機關發簡訊這個樣態也是我們蘇政司透過一一一的平台來解決那簡訊的部分你怎麼樣透過電訊業者就是簡訊啊,就因為我們一一一這個號碼沒有任何別人可以來仿冒所以任何的機關甚至現在台水台電到年底加起來大概會送一億甚至兩億則都有可能\n\n9\n00:04:25,306 --> 00:04:43,854\n數字上當然比較不容易講。他就是看起來就像就是說你在發簡訊的時候也不是很很容易清楚的瞭解啊是不是?所以這個東西是怎麼樣子阻隔大家想要就是防呆嘛就是你就把我們當作就是把民眾當作呆瓜嘛是不是?\n\n10\n00:05:15,295 --> 00:05:33,249\n我覺得部長你還是要回去再看一下對於電子簽章法即便我們今天給他過了那到底對於整體的防詐的成效以及對於就是說不同種類的詐騙或者是你只能規範到部分\n\n11\n00:05:34,090 --> 00:05:50,332\n到底是有多大的效率以及對於整個詐騙的遏止我們到底還需要在技術平台上面提供跨部會什麼樣子的協助我認為抒發部還有很大一步路要走\n\n12\n00:05:51,172 --> 00:05:51,192\n好,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4882\t7983\t謝謝主席。我想要請唐部長。請部長。唐部長早安。其實我還是對於就是電子簽章法的通過那是否會減低詐騙這樣子的一個樣態以及建樹。我是保持這是一個question mark那其實剛才\n28387\t54241\t﹏﹏﹏﹏\n54241\t71186\t﹝﹞\n71506\t100787\t就是說在金融機構裡面在地檢署裡面相關的辦理的案件甚至是法院對於案件的審理等等他們都已經提高相對的比例但是我們怎麼樣子相信數位部對於相關的技術層面以及所有的程序部分你們可以做好規劃以及能夠提供相關的技術的相關的給各個部會、跨部會的\n101387\t120262\t這個部分那這也就是民眾對於訴發部現在最大疑慮的部分你說明謝謝委員關心我想我們政府的憑證的系統不管內政部的責任憑證或者經濟部的商工憑證等等我們自己發的組織憑證其他最上位的這個政府的憑證的程序\n121403\t141116\t一向都是我們的訴政司也就是以前的國發會資管處來進行這方面的規劃所以它已經很穩定而且也沒有出什麼問題已經運作了相當久的時間從20幾年前電子簽章法通過到現在這第一點有一個具體的成績第二個我們現在也是數位公共建設相關的一個主要的機關\n141816\t156122\t﹏所以我們搜集地方的需求﹏其他部會的需求之後﹏我們是一次規劃﹏不管發六千﹏或者數位核銷等等﹏一次規劃這個建制﹏這個建制大家如果有領過六千的話﹏應該可以瞭解說我們在建制系統方面﹏也沒有出什麼問題﹏所以這些是我們實際的成績。\n158844\t179292\t我說的你講的都是一個非常小的部分可是我們講的是全面性那我們現在在意的是說你把過去的就是說什麼自然人憑證等等相關的簽章然後把它變成一個電子簽章那否就是everyone對不對那如果這樣子的情況下就能夠\n180532\t210015\t例如就能夠降低了網路的實名率的相關的問題等等但是我們還有其他部分例如說好了我們剛才說的法院詐騙、地檢詐騙以及相關的網路的詐騙或者是你現在看到的我們其實不只在於YouTube或者是在臉書上面其實在於我們的LINE或者是WeChat甚至更新的APP就是WhatsApp等等\n210515\t232595\t都有相關的詐騙,那你這個部分你怎麼...像冒充機關發簡訊這個樣態也是我們蘇政司透過一一一的平台來解決那簡訊的部分你怎麼樣透過電訊業者就是簡訊啊,就因為我們一一一這個號碼沒有任何別人可以來仿冒所以任何的機關甚至現在台水台電到年底加起來大概會送一億甚至兩億則都有可能\n232995\t245418\t﹏﹏﹏\n246357\t264206\t﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏\n265306\t283854\t數字上當然比較不容易講。他就是看起來就像就是說你在發簡訊的時候也不是很很容易清楚的瞭解啊是不是?所以這個東西是怎麼樣子阻隔大家想要就是防呆嘛就是你就把我們當作就是把民眾當作呆瓜嘛是不是?\n284394\t314394\t﹏﹏﹏\n315295\t333249\t我覺得部長你還是要回去再看一下對於電子簽章法即便我們今天給他過了那到底對於整體的防詐的成效以及對於就是說不同種類的詐騙或者是你只能規範到部分\n334090\t350332\t到底是有多大的效率以及對於整個詐騙的遏止我們到底還需要在技術平台上面提供跨部會什麼樣子的協助我認為抒發部還有很大一步路要走\n351172\t351192\t好,謝謝。\n","txt":"謝謝主席。我想要請唐部長。請部長。唐部長早安。其實我還是對於就是電子簽章法的通過那是否會減低詐騙這樣子的一個樣態以及建樹。我是保持這是一個question mark那其實剛才\n﹏﹏﹏﹏\n﹝﹞\n就是說在金融機構裡面在地檢署裡面相關的辦理的案件甚至是法院對於案件的審理等等他們都已經提高相對的比例但是我們怎麼樣子相信數位部對於相關的技術層面以及所有的程序部分你們可以做好規劃以及能夠提供相關的技術的相關的給各個部會、跨部會的\n這個部分那這也就是民眾對於訴發部現在最大疑慮的部分你說明謝謝委員關心我想我們政府的憑證的系統不管內政部的責任憑證或者經濟部的商工憑證等等我們自己發的組織憑證其他最上位的這個政府的憑證的程序\n一向都是我們的訴政司也就是以前的國發會資管處來進行這方面的規劃所以它已經很穩定而且也沒有出什麼問題已經運作了相當久的時間從20幾年前電子簽章法通過到現在這第一點有一個具體的成績第二個我們現在也是數位公共建設相關的一個主要的機關\n﹏所以我們搜集地方的需求﹏其他部會的需求之後﹏我們是一次規劃﹏不管發六千﹏或者數位核銷等等﹏一次規劃這個建制﹏這個建制大家如果有領過六千的話﹏應該可以瞭解說我們在建制系統方面﹏也沒有出什麼問題﹏所以這些是我們實際的成績。\n我說的你講的都是一個非常小的部分可是我們講的是全面性那我們現在在意的是說你把過去的就是說什麼自然人憑證等等相關的簽章然後把它變成一個電子簽章那否就是everyone對不對那如果這樣子的情況下就能夠\n例如就能夠降低了網路的實名率的相關的問題等等但是我們還有其他部分例如說好了我們剛才說的法院詐騙、地檢詐騙以及相關的網路的詐騙或者是你現在看到的我們其實不只在於YouTube或者是在臉書上面其實在於我們的LINE或者是WeChat甚至更新的APP就是WhatsApp等等\n都有相關的詐騙,那你這個部分你怎麼...像冒充機關發簡訊這個樣態也是我們蘇政司透過一一一的平台來解決那簡訊的部分你怎麼樣透過電訊業者就是簡訊啊,就因為我們一一一這個號碼沒有任何別人可以來仿冒所以任何的機關甚至現在台水台電到年底加起來大概會送一億甚至兩億則都有可能\n﹏﹏﹏\n﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏\n數字上當然比較不容易講。他就是看起來就像就是說你在發簡訊的時候也不是很很容易清楚的瞭解啊是不是?所以這個東西是怎麼樣子阻隔大家想要就是防呆嘛就是你就把我們當作就是把民眾當作呆瓜嘛是不是?\n﹏﹏﹏\n我覺得部長你還是要回去再看一下對於電子簽章法即便我們今天給他過了那到底對於整體的防詐的成效以及對於就是說不同種類的詐騙或者是你只能規範到部分\n到底是有多大的效率以及對於整個詐騙的遏止我們到底還需要在技術平台上面提供跨部會什麼樣子的協助我認為抒發部還有很大一步路要走\n好,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.882 --> 00:07.983\n謝謝主席。我想要請唐部長。請部長。唐部長早安。其實我還是對於就是電子簽章法的通過那是否會減低詐騙這樣子的一個樣態以及建樹。我是保持這是一個questionmark那其實剛才\n\n01:11.506 --> 01:40.787\n就是說在金融機構裡面在地檢署裡面相關的辦理的案件甚至是法院對於案件的審理等等他們都已經提高相對的比例但是我們怎麼樣子相信數位部對於相關的技術層面以及所有的程序部分你們可以做好規劃以及能夠提供相關的技術的相關的給各個部會、跨部會的\n\n01:41.387 --> 02:00.262\n這個部分那這也就是民眾對於訴發部現在最大疑慮的部分你說明謝謝委員關心我想我們政府的憑證的系統不管內政部的責任憑證或者經濟部的商工憑證等等我們自己發的組織憑證其他最上位的這個政府的憑證的程序\n\n02:01.403 --> 02:21.116\n一向都是我們的訴政司也就是以前的國發會資管處來進行這方面的規劃所以它已經很穩定而且也沒有出什麼問題已經運作了相當久的時間從20幾年前電子簽章法通過到現在這第一點有一個具體的成績第二個我們現在也是數位公共建設相關的一個主要的機關\n\n02:21.816 --> 02:36.122\n﹏所以我們搜集地方的需求﹏其他部會的需求之後﹏我們是一次規劃﹏不管發六千﹏或者數位核銷等等﹏一次規劃這個建制﹏這個建制大家如果有領過六千的話﹏應該可以瞭解說我們在建制系統方面﹏也沒有出什麼問題﹏所以這些是我們實際的成績。\n\n02:38.844 --> 02:59.292\n我說的你講的都是一個非常小的部分可是我們講的是全面性那我們現在在意的是說你把過去的就是說什麼自然人憑證等等相關的簽章然後把它變成一個電子簽章那否就是everyone對不對那如果這樣子的情況下就能夠\n\n03:00.532 --> 03:30.015\n例如就能夠降低了網路的實名率的相關的問題等等但是我們還有其他部分例如說好了我們剛才說的法院詐騙、地檢詐騙以及相關的網路的詐騙或者是你現在看到的我們其實不只在於YouTube或者是在臉書上面其實在於我們的LINE或者是WeChat甚至更新的APP就是WhatsApp等等\n\n03:30.515 --> 03:52.595\n都有相關的詐騙,那你這個部分你怎麼...像冒充機關發簡訊這個樣態也是我們蘇政司透過一一一的平台來解決那簡訊的部分你怎麼樣透過電訊業者就是簡訊啊,就因為我們一一一這個號碼沒有任何別人可以來仿冒所以任何的機關甚至現在台水台電到年底加起來大概會送一億甚至兩億則都有可能\n\n04:25.306 --> 04:43.854\n數字上當然比較不容易講。他就是看起來就像就是說你在發簡訊的時候也不是很很容易清楚的瞭解啊是不是?所以這個東西是怎麼樣子阻隔大家想要就是防呆嘛就是你就把我們當作就是把民眾當作呆瓜嘛是不是?\n\n05:15.295 --> 05:33.249\n我覺得部長你還是要回去再看一下對於電子簽章法即便我們今天給他過了那到底對於整體的防詐的成效以及對於就是說不同種類的詐騙或者是你只能規範到部分\n\n05:34.090 --> 05:50.332\n到底是有多大的效率以及對於整個詐騙的遏止我們到底還需要在技術平台上面提供跨部會什麼樣子的協助我認為抒發部還有很大一步路要走\n\n05:51.172 --> 05:51.192\n好,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.882,"end":7.983,"text":"謝謝主席。我想要請唐部長。請部長。唐部長早安。其實我還是對於就是電子簽章法的通過那是否會減低詐騙這樣子的一個樣態以及建樹。我是保持這是一個question mark那其實剛才"},{"start":28.387,"end":54.241,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":54.241,"end":71.186,"text":" ﹝﹞"},{"start":71.506,"end":100.787,"text":"就是說在金融機構裡面在地檢署裡面相關的辦理的案件甚至是法院對於案件的審理等等他們都已經提高相對的比例但是我們怎麼樣子相信數位部對於相關的技術層面以及所有的程序部分你們可以做好規劃以及能夠提供相關的技術的相關的給各個部會、跨部會的"},{"start":101.387,"end":120.262,"text":"這個部分那這也就是民眾對於訴發部現在最大疑慮的部分你說明謝謝委員關心我想我們政府的憑證的系統不管內政部的責任憑證或者經濟部的商工憑證等等我們自己發的組織憑證其他最上位的這個政府的憑證的程序"},{"start":121.403,"end":141.116,"text":"一向都是我們的訴政司也就是以前的國發會資管處來進行這方面的規劃所以它已經很穩定而且也沒有出什麼問題已經運作了相當久的時間從20幾年前電子簽章法通過到現在這第一點有一個具體的成績第二個我們現在也是數位公共建設相關的一個主要的機關"},{"start":141.816,"end":156.122,"text":" ﹏所以我們搜集地方的需求﹏其他部會的需求之後﹏我們是一次規劃﹏不管發六千﹏或者數位核銷等等﹏一次規劃這個建制﹏這個建制大家如果有領過六千的話﹏應該可以瞭解說我們在建制系統方面﹏也沒有出什麼問題﹏所以這些是我們實際的成績。"},{"start":158.844,"end":179.292,"text":"我說的你講的都是一個非常小的部分可是我們講的是全面性那我們現在在意的是說你把過去的就是說什麼自然人憑證等等相關的簽章然後把它變成一個電子簽章那否就是everyone對不對那如果這樣子的情況下就能夠"},{"start":180.532,"end":210.015,"text":"例如就能夠降低了網路的實名率的相關的問題等等但是我們還有其他部分例如說好了我們剛才說的法院詐騙、地檢詐騙以及相關的網路的詐騙或者是你現在看到的我們其實不只在於YouTube或者是在臉書上面其實在於我們的LINE或者是WeChat甚至更新的APP就是WhatsApp等等"},{"start":210.515,"end":232.595,"text":"都有相關的詐騙,那你這個部分你怎麼...像冒充機關發簡訊這個樣態也是我們蘇政司透過一一一的平台來解決那簡訊的部分你怎麼樣透過電訊業者就是簡訊啊,就因為我們一一一這個號碼沒有任何別人可以來仿冒所以任何的機關甚至現在台水台電到年底加起來大概會送一億甚至兩億則都有可能"},{"start":232.995,"end":245.418,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":246.357,"end":264.206,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":265.306,"end":283.854,"text":"數字上當然比較不容易講。他就是看起來就像就是說你在發簡訊的時候也不是很很容易清楚的瞭解啊是不是?所以這個東西是怎麼樣子阻隔大家想要就是防呆嘛就是你就把我們當作就是把民眾當作呆瓜嘛是不是?"},{"start":284.394,"end":314.394,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":315.295,"end":333.249,"text":"我覺得部長你還是要回去再看一下對於電子簽章法即便我們今天給他過了那到底對於整體的防詐的成效以及對於就是說不同種類的詐騙或者是你只能規範到部分"},{"start":334.09,"end":350.332,"text":"到底是有多大的效率以及對於整個詐騙的遏止我們到底還需要在技術平台上面提供跨部會什麼樣子的協助我認為抒發部還有很大一步路要走"},{"start":351.172,"end":351.192,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}}}}