{"id":150147,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150147","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192c3aba96143f36d56753301a1aac7f2e9f8ba9b0039caa7a635f8edf4cfd126675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"11:27:09 - 11:36:58","影片長度":"00:09:49","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就「國土計畫推動辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":589,"end_time":"2024-03-20T11:36:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T11:27:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":784,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（11時27分）謝謝主席。請林右昌部長。部長，今天要跟你詢問國土計畫的部分，國土計畫在2015年的時候被制定出來，因為經過疫情3年的空窗期，我們沒有儘速討論。但去年討論的草案開始公布出去以後，其實讓社會各界、地方鄉親有非常多的紛擾，我們立法委員作為民意代表，就是來這裡反映民意的。首先，請問部長，引起很多紛爭的就是當自己的住宅、農地、工廠被劃到與自己想像中或期待中不一樣的分類範圍時，所引起的紛爭、引起的反映，我的第一個問題是，請問國土功能分區圖以及使用地的繪製、繪圖是哪個機關，是中央還是地方？"],["林部長右昌：地方政府。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這有法規依據嗎？"],["林部長右昌：有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：明確嘛！對不對？"],["林部長右昌：因為它分為三階段，第二階段是由地方政府來……"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在就是在地方政府已經繪製完，並且進行公展的階段，正確嗎？"],["林部長右昌：正確。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這句話正確？"],["林部長右昌：基本上在去年已經完成。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以如果在地方聽到有人對於自己的分屬類別不滿意，地方政府跟你說這都是中央規定的，這句話是對還是錯？"],["林部長右昌：當然並不正確。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這當然並不正確，因為國土計畫法第二十二條非常明白規定「前二項國土功能分區圖與使用地繪製之辦理機關、製定方法……，由中央主管機關定之」。因此訂定辦法後負責的其實就是直轄市、地方縣市主管機關。"],["林部長右昌：是的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我在這裡先替你洗白第一條，先替你說清楚講明白第一條，可是接下來我就想要問中央的責任，部長，我們分了幾類？國土計畫法把臺灣的海疆、海域、土地分成4大類，分別為國土保育地區、海洋資源地區、農業發展地區、城鄉發展地區，沒有錯，對不對？每一類下面又因為其性質不同，所以我們給予不同的管制，又分了1、2、3、4類，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：沒有錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：屬於第1類的就是管制程度比較多的，請問你們有沒有把像國土保育類這樣的中大類，剛剛說這些分類繪製是由地方政府繪製的，沒有錯，對不對？你有把各縣市所繪製出來的圖加總起來看看，各縣市分別繪製出來以後的臺灣會長什麼樣子嗎？"],["林部長右昌：目前還沒有，因為各縣市還沒有完全送過來。"],["蘇委員巧慧：還沒有完全送過來？"],["林部長右昌：現在是草案，他們要送進來審。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是他們送進來總是有一個版本了，你就應該先把那個版本送進來看看。"],["林部長右昌：有，那是最早的版本，在去年的時候。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你有沒有看過送進來的版本？我劃給你看看，為了今天我們特別準備資料，這是臺灣地圖，你知道這條紅線劃出來是什麼嗎？這條紅線是我把所有地方縣市政府、直轄市政府填的國土保育區，這是他們劃的區，劃出來綜整起來以後是臺灣長這樣，60%全部都變成國土保育區了，這樣合理嗎？"],["林部長右昌：委員，紅線裡面就是你剛剛在講的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：第1類國土保育區，1、2、3、4級統統都在裡面。"],["林部長右昌：對，它有4類。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，我把國土保育區都劃進去了，這樣有60%。"],["林部長右昌：基本上，這也是過去的保育區範圍。"],["蘇委員巧慧：全部都是？"],["吳署長欣修：還比較小。"],["蘇委員巧慧：大部分是，有些不是，我本來想看看部長會怎麼回答還是署長這邊會怎麼回答？如果你跟我說「沒有，這條線劃出來的大部分都是山」，那我就要跟你跳下一張圖片了，你知道這是哪裡嗎？這是我的選區鶯歌鳶山堰水庫，旁邊這一大塊地全部被劃為國土保育區1類，就是最嚴格限制的國保1，被劃為國保1以後會怎麼樣？國保1的限制還可以再蓋房子嗎？還可以使用嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我請署長說明。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，請署長說明。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為臺灣原來的山林地區大概就占了73%，第二個，再加上原來在相關的飲用水或是自來水的保育範圍內。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，你的指引就是這樣寫的。"],["吳署長欣修：所以它是會因為這樣被劃進來。"],["蘇委員巧慧：它是因為這樣被歸類，劃進去以後的效果呢？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，如果他原有就已經申請過合法建築，我們發現其實陸陸續續都有，他繼續重為原來之使用都沒有問題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以既存的建物可以照現在的使用方式繼續使用，甚至包括買賣等等都可以，只是它不能做地目變更，比如農地不能變工廠或住宅不能變商業，理論上是這樣，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我給你看這塊地現況的衛星圖長什麼樣子，現在經由新北市政府劃為國保1的鶯歌鳶山堰水庫周圍地區的衛星圖，這完完全全就是住宅的狀況，人口之密集、農業之發展，就是這樣的狀況，所以它完全符合但書，既存事實就是繼續使用，可是他們的心情是很擔心的，認為糟糕了，被劃為國保1，可是符合但書，事實上又是這樣來使用。我就要反過來問，請問它劃了國保1的目的是什麼？好像也沒有用了。"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，因為它原來就是在相關的飲用水範圍或自來水水質水量保護區範圍。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以理論上它那邊應該要保護。"],["吳署長欣修：說明一下，它保護的標的是因為我們不希望它繼續製造新的水源污染問題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我同意啦。"],["吳署長欣修：所以才會用這樣的概念，但是在劃設的時候，因為早期的圖劃得比較沒有那麼精準。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你看，又講到早期的圖了。"],["吳署長欣修：所以我們在這個過程當中也都有邀請農業部水利署或是環境部一起去檢視，經過檢視完，他們還是認為這樣的話，當然在未來也可以透過他們自己的檢討，需要調整的，我們再來做調整。"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，我同意啦，我的每一個問題如果拆開來問的時候，你都可以有答案回答我，包括如果是保育類的、環境保護類的，你就說現在劃了國保1；如果是既存在這裡的鄰里居民的話，你就說現在有但書讓你可以繼續用。每一條都沒有問題，但是合起來就會覺得我們做這件事情的目的到底是什麼？能夠達到的效果是什麼？追根究柢起來還包括現在這個分區是地方政府劃的，而每一個地方政府又都有不同的概念，總歸來講，因為我今天是立法委員、國會議員，我面對的是中央部會，所以我想很中肯地給中央部會一個建議好嗎？我想建議的是那個指引其實可以認真地調整一下，尤其是各地方政府蒐集來的版本，如果有出現這樣子的狀況，它又不能夠真正的保護、又引起鄉親的困擾，我們是不是有機會在這種既存事實已經存在，你可以在一次調查完之後，我覺得我們的指引可以來做更細緻的討論，也提供給地方政府，當如果遇到這樣的狀況時他們要怎麼劃？不然他們就一句話說：「這是中央規定的」。喔！我們在那邊真的是百口莫辯，處理起來真的是很麻煩，我到底是要站在居民這邊，還是要站在保護水源那一邊？其實是非常麻煩的狀況。而且你看整個地區，像剛剛劃給你看的，有60%的地方其實都會有兩邊在拉扯的狀況，如果我們只放手讓地方下去做，又會有二十幾種不同的意見、版本出來，我覺得這是很麻煩的部分。右昌部長一向很擅長綜整這些資料等等，那是不是有機會地方提出第一版來了，就這個版本把指引的部分做一個調整、修正？"],["林部長右昌：是，這個就是在第三階段審議的時候，我們會來做相關的修正。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且最重要的是要公告這些東西給居民知道的時候，其實現在透過的方式是什麼？是地方政府透過公展或者是新聞媒體刊登或者舉辦說明會，結果你知道像新北市政府是什麼嗎？新北市政府只有在5月的時候，從5月27號開始在城鄉發展局的官網公告30天，27到30號在中國時報刊登3天，誰會去看啊？每一個地區就只有在公所講一次，等到我們知道的時候都已經來不及了，我覺得包括這部分也應該要跟地方縣市政府進行討論，要讓更多居民能夠理解。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員的質詢，也謝謝部長跟署長。","接下來我們請徐巧芯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","蘇巧慧","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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00:01:16,546\n當然這個並不正確當然並不正確吧\n\n6\n00:01:46,172 --> 00:02:11,992\n因為我們根據國土計畫法第22條非常明白的規定前兩項的國土功能分區圖及使用圖的繪製之辦理機關制定方法等等中央主管機關地質而因此定的辦法其實就是直轄市地方縣市主管機關所以我在這裡先替你洗白第一條先替你說清楚講明白第一條可是接下來我就想要問中央的責任了\n\n7\n00:02:12,893 --> 00:02:40,347\n部長我們分了幾類哈這個我們因為國土計畫法之後其實把台灣的海江、海域、土地分成了四大類就是這四大類國土保育地區、海洋資源地區、農業發展地區、城鄉發展地區沒有錯嘛對不對然後每一類下面又因為它的性質不同所以我們給予不同的管制又分了一二三四類對不對好那第一類如果是屬於D類的就是管制程度會比較多的是\n\n8\n00:02:41,187 --> 00:02:42,848\n目前還沒有,因為各縣市還沒有完全送過來\n\n9\n00:03:09,183 --> 00:03:35,902\n現在是草案,他們要送進來審對啊,但是他們送進來總是有一個版本的嘛你就應該先把那個版本送進來看看嘛你有沒有看過送進來的版本我放給你看看為了今天我們特別準備資料你看看這是我們台灣的地圖嘛你知道我這條紅線畫出來是什麼嗎這條紅線是我把我把所有地方縣市政府直轄市政府所有填的國土保育區\n\n10\n00:03:37,534 --> 00:03:39,620\n他們畫的區畫出來以後中整起來以後台灣長這樣欸60%全部都變成國土保育區了這樣合理嗎?\n\n11\n00:03:48,688 --> 00:03:50,889\n國土保育區的範圍全部都是還比較小\n\n12\n00:04:09,714 --> 00:04:17,801\n大部分是啦,但是有些不是啦我本來想說,看看部長你會怎麼回答還是說署長你這邊會怎麼回答你如果告訴我沒有啦,這條線畫出來的大部分都是山啦好,那我就要跟你跳下一張了下一張你知道這是哪裡嗎?這是我的選區因戈啦我的選區因戈,淵山堰水庫這裡\n\n13\n00:04:33,140 --> 00:04:42,866\n旁邊的這一大塊地全部被劃為國土保育區的一類最嚴格限制的就是國保一啦那國保一以後會怎麼樣?\n\n14\n00:04:45,415 --> 00:05:05,607\n國保1的限制還可以再蓋房子嗎還可以使用嗎好那請署長說明國保1因為國土保1地區大概因為台灣原來的山林地區大概就佔了73%是啦所以第二個就是說再加上原來在這個在相關的這個飲用水或是自來水對啦你的指引就是這樣寫的啦是不歸類於這樣嘛\n\n15\n00:05:23,780 --> 00:05:37,268\n所以既存的建物可以照現在的使用方式繼續使用嗎?甚至包括買賣啊等等都可以嘛對不對只是他不能做地木的變更不能做其他農地不能變工廠嘛然後是住宅不能變商業對不對理論上是這樣嗎?對沒錯\n\n16\n00:05:39,909 --> 00:05:54,418\n好,那我給你看這塊地現在長,原來現況衛星圖給你看現在長什麼樣子現在你化為,不是你化為啦,現在經由新北市政府化為國寶一的因戈淵山淵水庫周圍地區的衛星圖\n\n17\n00:05:57,059 --> 00:06:17,764\n這完完全全就是住財的狀況啊!人口之密集、農業之發展就是這樣的狀況啊!所以他完全就符合你的但書嘛!就是寄存事實,他就是繼續使用嘛!所以他心情很擔心說我糟糕了我是國寶一可是你又用但書事實上他又是這樣來使用那請問那我就反過來問那請問他畫了國寶一的\n\n18\n00:06:20,345 --> 00:06:22,327\n所以理論上他那邊應該要保護嘛同意啦同意啦\n\n19\n00:06:44,048 --> 00:06:44,889\n蘇巧慧蘇巧慧蘇巧慧蘇巧慧\n\n20\n00:07:01,818 --> 00:07:30,618\n在未來也可以透過他們自己的檢討需要再調整我同意啦我的每一個問題如果拆開來問的時候你都可以有答案回答我啦包括是說如果我要保育類的你就聽我說環境保護類的你就說我現在畫了國保一我如果是寄存這個在這裡的林裡的居民的話你就說我現在有單書讓你可以繼續用合起來都沒有每一條都沒有問題啦但是合起來你就會覺得說我們做這件事情的目的到底是什麼\n\n21\n00:07:31,178 --> 00:07:31,258\n﹚蘇巧慧﹚\n\n22\n00:07:52,173 --> 00:08:17,882\n其實可以來認真的調整一下尤其是各地方政府收集來的版本如果有出現這樣子的狀況的它又不能夠真正的保護又引起鄉親的困擾那我們是不是有機會在這種既存事實已經存在你可以調查一次完以後我覺得我們的指引可以來做更細緻的討論也給地方政府說好那如果遇到這樣的狀況的時候你要怎麼畫\n\n23\n00:08:18,502 --> 00:08:19,523\n不然他就一句話就說\n\n24\n00:08:48,642 --> 00:08:49,423\n第三階段審議的時候我們會來做相關的一個審議\n\n25\n00:09:05,418 --> 00:09:30,074\n而且最重要的是你知道他公告這些東西給居民知道的時候其實透過的方式是什麼是地方政府透過公展或者是新聞媒體刊登或者舉辦說明會結果你知道像新北市政府是什麼嗎新北市政府一共就是只有在五月的時候在五月二十七號開始在城鄉發展局的官網公告三十天然後二十七到三十天在中國時報刊三篇\n\n26\n00:09:31,315 --> 00:09:31,516\n蘇巧慧委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t2262\t委員會主席\n4005\t4565\t國土計畫推動辦理 國土計畫推動辦理\n30750\t57328\t讓社會各界地方鄉親其實是有非常多的紛擾那我想我們立法委員作為民意代表就是來這裡反映民意的首先我想第一個請問部長這個引起很多紛爭的就是當自己的住宅當自己的農地當自己的工廠被劃到與自己想像中或者期待中不一樣的分類範圍的時候所引起的紛爭嘛引起的反映\n59189\t74723\t我第一個問題是請問這個國土功能分區圖以使用地這個的繪製這個的繪圖是由哪個機關是中央還是地方有地方政府這有法規依據嗎有\n76226\t76546\t當然這個並不正確當然並不正確吧\n106172\t131992\t因為我們根據國土計畫法第22條非常明白的規定前兩項的國土功能分區圖及使用圖的繪製之辦理機關制定方法等等中央主管機關地質而因此定的辦法其實就是直轄市地方縣市主管機關所以我在這裡先替你洗白第一條先替你說清楚講明白第一條可是接下來我就想要問中央的責任了\n132893\t160347\t部長我們分了幾類哈這個我們因為國土計畫法之後其實把台灣的海江、海域、土地分成了四大類就是這四大類國土保育地區、海洋資源地區、農業發展地區、城鄉發展地區沒有錯嘛對不對然後每一類下面又因為它的性質不同所以我們給予不同的管制又分了一二三四類對不對好那第一類如果是屬於D類的就是管制程度會比較多的是\n161187\t162848\t目前還沒有,因為各縣市還沒有完全送過來\n189183\t215902\t現在是草案,他們要送進來審對啊,但是他們送進來總是有一個版本的嘛你就應該先把那個版本送進來看看嘛你有沒有看過送進來的版本我放給你看看為了今天我們特別準備資料你看看這是我們台灣的地圖嘛你知道我這條紅線畫出來是什麼嗎這條紅線是我把我把所有地方縣市政府直轄市政府所有填的國土保育區\n217534\t219620\t他們畫的區畫出來以後 中整起來以後台灣長這樣欸60%全部都變成國土保育區了 這樣合理嗎?\n228688\t230889\t國土保育區的範圍全部都是還比較小\n249714\t257801\t大部分是啦,但是有些不是啦我本來想說,看看部長你會怎麼回答還是說署長你這邊會怎麼回答你如果告訴我沒有啦,這條線畫出來的大部分都是山啦好,那我就要跟你跳下一張了下一張你知道這是哪裡嗎?這是我的選區因戈啦我的選區因戈,淵山堰水庫這裡\n273140\t282866\t旁邊的這一大塊地全部被劃為國土保育區的一類最嚴格限制的就是國保一啦那國保一以後會怎麼樣?\n285415\t305607\t國保1的限制還可以再蓋房子嗎還可以使用嗎好那請署長說明國保1因為國土保1地區大概因為台灣原來的山林地區大概就佔了73%是啦所以第二個就是說再加上原來在這個在相關的這個飲用水或是自來水對啦你的指引就是這樣寫的啦是不歸類於這樣嘛\n308609\t323660\t對﹖\n323780\t337268\t所以既存的建物可以照現在的使用方式繼續使用嗎?甚至包括買賣啊等等都可以嘛對不對只是他不能做地木的變更不能做其他農地不能變工廠嘛然後是住宅不能變商業對不對理論上是這樣嗎?對沒錯\n339909\t354418\t好,那我給你看這塊地現在長,原來現況衛星圖給你看現在長什麼樣子現在你化為,不是你化為啦,現在經由新北市政府化為國寶一的因戈淵山淵水庫周圍地區的衛星圖\n357059\t377764\t這完完全全就是住財的狀況啊!人口之密集、農業之發展就是這樣的狀況啊!所以他完全就符合你的但書嘛!就是寄存事實,他就是繼續使用嘛!所以他心情很擔心說我糟糕了我是國寶一可是你又用但書事實上他又是這樣來使用那請問那我就反過來問那請問他畫了國寶一的\n380345\t382327\t所以理論上他那邊應該要保護嘛同意啦同意啦\n404048\t404889\t蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧\n421818\t450618\t在未來也可以透過他們自己的檢討需要再調整我同意啦我的每一個問題如果拆開來問的時候你都可以有答案回答我啦包括是說如果我要保育類的你就聽我說環境保護類的你就說我現在畫了國保一我如果是寄存這個在這裡的林裡的居民的話你就說我現在有單書讓你可以繼續用合起來都沒有每一條都沒有問題啦但是合起來你就會覺得說我們做這件事情的目的到底是什麼\n451178\t451258\t﹚蘇巧慧﹚\n472173\t497882\t其實可以來認真的調整一下尤其是各地方政府收集來的版本如果有出現這樣子的狀況的它又不能夠真正的保護又引起鄉親的困擾那我們是不是有機會在這種既存事實已經存在你可以調查一次完以後我覺得我們的指引可以來做更細緻的討論也給地方政府說好那如果遇到這樣的狀況的時候你要怎麼畫\n498502\t499523\t不然他就一句話就說\n528642\t529423\t第三階段審議的時候我們會來做相關的一個審議\n545418\t570074\t而且最重要的是你知道他公告這些東西給居民知道的時候其實透過的方式是什麼是地方政府透過公展或者是新聞媒體刊登或者舉辦說明會結果你知道像新北市政府是什麼嗎新北市政府一共就是只有在五月的時候在五月二十七號開始在城鄉發展局的官網公告三十天然後二十七到三十天在中國時報刊三篇\n571315\t571516\t蘇巧慧委員\n","txt":"委員會主席\n國土計畫推動辦理 國土計畫推動辦理\n讓社會各界地方鄉親其實是有非常多的紛擾那我想我們立法委員作為民意代表就是來這裡反映民意的首先我想第一個請問部長這個引起很多紛爭的就是當自己的住宅當自己的農地當自己的工廠被劃到與自己想像中或者期待中不一樣的分類範圍的時候所引起的紛爭嘛引起的反映\n我第一個問題是請問這個國土功能分區圖以使用地這個的繪製這個的繪圖是由哪個機關是中央還是地方有地方政府這有法規依據嗎有\n當然這個並不正確當然並不正確吧\n因為我們根據國土計畫法第22條非常明白的規定前兩項的國土功能分區圖及使用圖的繪製之辦理機關制定方法等等中央主管機關地質而因此定的辦法其實就是直轄市地方縣市主管機關所以我在這裡先替你洗白第一條先替你說清楚講明白第一條可是接下來我就想要問中央的責任了\n部長我們分了幾類哈這個我們因為國土計畫法之後其實把台灣的海江、海域、土地分成了四大類就是這四大類國土保育地區、海洋資源地區、農業發展地區、城鄉發展地區沒有錯嘛對不對然後每一類下面又因為它的性質不同所以我們給予不同的管制又分了一二三四類對不對好那第一類如果是屬於D類的就是管制程度會比較多的是\n目前還沒有,因為各縣市還沒有完全送過來\n現在是草案,他們要送進來審對啊,但是他們送進來總是有一個版本的嘛你就應該先把那個版本送進來看看嘛你有沒有看過送進來的版本我放給你看看為了今天我們特別準備資料你看看這是我們台灣的地圖嘛你知道我這條紅線畫出來是什麼嗎這條紅線是我把我把所有地方縣市政府直轄市政府所有填的國土保育區\n他們畫的區畫出來以後 中整起來以後台灣長這樣欸60%全部都變成國土保育區了 這樣合理嗎?\n國土保育區的範圍全部都是還比較小\n大部分是啦,但是有些不是啦我本來想說,看看部長你會怎麼回答還是說署長你這邊會怎麼回答你如果告訴我沒有啦,這條線畫出來的大部分都是山啦好,那我就要跟你跳下一張了下一張你知道這是哪裡嗎?這是我的選區因戈啦我的選區因戈,淵山堰水庫這裡\n旁邊的這一大塊地全部被劃為國土保育區的一類最嚴格限制的就是國保一啦那國保一以後會怎麼樣?\n國保1的限制還可以再蓋房子嗎還可以使用嗎好那請署長說明國保1因為國土保1地區大概因為台灣原來的山林地區大概就佔了73%是啦所以第二個就是說再加上原來在這個在相關的這個飲用水或是自來水對啦你的指引就是這樣寫的啦是不歸類於這樣嘛\n對﹖\n所以既存的建物可以照現在的使用方式繼續使用嗎?甚至包括買賣啊等等都可以嘛對不對只是他不能做地木的變更不能做其他農地不能變工廠嘛然後是住宅不能變商業對不對理論上是這樣嗎?對沒錯\n好,那我給你看這塊地現在長,原來現況衛星圖給你看現在長什麼樣子現在你化為,不是你化為啦,現在經由新北市政府化為國寶一的因戈淵山淵水庫周圍地區的衛星圖\n這完完全全就是住財的狀況啊!人口之密集、農業之發展就是這樣的狀況啊!所以他完全就符合你的但書嘛!就是寄存事實,他就是繼續使用嘛!所以他心情很擔心說我糟糕了我是國寶一可是你又用但書事實上他又是這樣來使用那請問那我就反過來問那請問他畫了國寶一的\n所以理論上他那邊應該要保護嘛同意啦同意啦\n蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧\n在未來也可以透過他們自己的檢討需要再調整我同意啦我的每一個問題如果拆開來問的時候你都可以有答案回答我啦包括是說如果我要保育類的你就聽我說環境保護類的你就說我現在畫了國保一我如果是寄存這個在這裡的林裡的居民的話你就說我現在有單書讓你可以繼續用合起來都沒有每一條都沒有問題啦但是合起來你就會覺得說我們做這件事情的目的到底是什麼\n﹚蘇巧慧﹚\n其實可以來認真的調整一下尤其是各地方政府收集來的版本如果有出現這樣子的狀況的它又不能夠真正的保護又引起鄉親的困擾那我們是不是有機會在這種既存事實已經存在你可以調查一次完以後我覺得我們的指引可以來做更細緻的討論也給地方政府說好那如果遇到這樣的狀況的時候你要怎麼畫\n不然他就一句話就說\n第三階段審議的時候我們會來做相關的一個審議\n而且最重要的是你知道他公告這些東西給居民知道的時候其實透過的方式是什麼是地方政府透過公展或者是新聞媒體刊登或者舉辦說明會結果你知道像新北市政府是什麼嗎新北市政府一共就是只有在五月的時候在五月二十七號開始在城鄉發展局的官網公告三十天然後二十七到三十天在中國時報刊三篇\n蘇巧慧委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:02.262\n委員會主席\n\n00:04.005 --> 00:04.565\n國土計畫推動辦理國土計畫推動辦理\n\n00:30.750 --> 00:57.328\n讓社會各界地方鄉親其實是有非常多的紛擾那我想我們立法委員作為民意代表就是來這裡反映民意的首先我想第一個請問部長這個引起很多紛爭的就是當自己的住宅當自己的農地當自己的工廠被劃到與自己想像中或者期待中不一樣的分類範圍的時候所引起的紛爭嘛引起的反映\n\n00:59.189 --> 01:14.723\n我第一個問題是請問這個國土功能分區圖以使用地這個的繪製這個的繪圖是由哪個機關是中央還是地方有地方政府這有法規依據嗎有\n\n01:16.226 --> 01:16.546\n當然這個並不正確當然並不正確吧\n\n01:46.172 --> 02:11.992\n因為我們根據國土計畫法第22條非常明白的規定前兩項的國土功能分區圖及使用圖的繪製之辦理機關制定方法等等中央主管機關地質而因此定的辦法其實就是直轄市地方縣市主管機關所以我在這裡先替你洗白第一條先替你說清楚講明白第一條可是接下來我就想要問中央的責任了\n\n02:12.893 --> 02:40.347\n部長我們分了幾類哈這個我們因為國土計畫法之後其實把台灣的海江、海域、土地分成了四大類就是這四大類國土保育地區、海洋資源地區、農業發展地區、城鄉發展地區沒有錯嘛對不對然後每一類下面又因為它的性質不同所以我們給予不同的管制又分了一二三四類對不對好那第一類如果是屬於D類的就是管制程度會比較多的是\n\n02:41.187 --> 02:42.848\n目前還沒有,因為各縣市還沒有完全送過來\n\n03:09.183 --> 03:35.902\n現在是草案,他們要送進來審對啊,但是他們送進來總是有一個版本的嘛你就應該先把那個版本送進來看看嘛你有沒有看過送進來的版本我放給你看看為了今天我們特別準備資料你看看這是我們台灣的地圖嘛你知道我這條紅線畫出來是什麼嗎這條紅線是我把我把所有地方縣市政府直轄市政府所有填的國土保育區\n\n03:37.534 --> 03:39.620\n他們畫的區畫出來以後中整起來以後台灣長這樣欸60%全部都變成國土保育區了這樣合理嗎?\n\n03:48.688 --> 03:50.889\n國土保育區的範圍全部都是還比較小\n\n04:09.714 --> 04:17.801\n大部分是啦,但是有些不是啦我本來想說,看看部長你會怎麼回答還是說署長你這邊會怎麼回答你如果告訴我沒有啦,這條線畫出來的大部分都是山啦好,那我就要跟你跳下一張了下一張你知道這是哪裡嗎?這是我的選區因戈啦我的選區因戈,淵山堰水庫這裡\n\n04:33.140 --> 04:42.866\n旁邊的這一大塊地全部被劃為國土保育區的一類最嚴格限制的就是國保一啦那國保一以後會怎麼樣?\n\n04:45.415 --> 05:05.607\n國保1的限制還可以再蓋房子嗎還可以使用嗎好那請署長說明國保1因為國土保1地區大概因為台灣原來的山林地區大概就佔了73%是啦所以第二個就是說再加上原來在這個在相關的這個飲用水或是自來水對啦你的指引就是這樣寫的啦是不歸類於這樣嘛\n\n05:23.780 --> 05:37.268\n所以既存的建物可以照現在的使用方式繼續使用嗎?甚至包括買賣啊等等都可以嘛對不對只是他不能做地木的變更不能做其他農地不能變工廠嘛然後是住宅不能變商業對不對理論上是這樣嗎?對沒錯\n\n05:39.909 --> 05:54.418\n好,那我給你看這塊地現在長,原來現況衛星圖給你看現在長什麼樣子現在你化為,不是你化為啦,現在經由新北市政府化為國寶一的因戈淵山淵水庫周圍地區的衛星圖\n\n05:57.059 --> 06:17.764\n這完完全全就是住財的狀況啊!人口之密集、農業之發展就是這樣的狀況啊!所以他完全就符合你的但書嘛!就是寄存事實,他就是繼續使用嘛!所以他心情很擔心說我糟糕了我是國寶一可是你又用但書事實上他又是這樣來使用那請問那我就反過來問那請問他畫了國寶一的\n\n06:20.345 --> 06:22.327\n所以理論上他那邊應該要保護嘛同意啦同意啦\n\n06:44.048 --> 06:44.889\n蘇巧慧蘇巧慧蘇巧慧蘇巧慧\n\n07:01.818 --> 07:30.618\n在未來也可以透過他們自己的檢討需要再調整我同意啦我的每一個問題如果拆開來問的時候你都可以有答案回答我啦包括是說如果我要保育類的你就聽我說環境保護類的你就說我現在畫了國保一我如果是寄存這個在這裡的林裡的居民的話你就說我現在有單書讓你可以繼續用合起來都沒有每一條都沒有問題啦但是合起來你就會覺得說我們做這件事情的目的到底是什麼\n\n07:31.178 --> 07:31.258\n﹚蘇巧慧﹚\n\n07:52.173 --> 08:17.882\n其實可以來認真的調整一下尤其是各地方政府收集來的版本如果有出現這樣子的狀況的它又不能夠真正的保護又引起鄉親的困擾那我們是不是有機會在這種既存事實已經存在你可以調查一次完以後我覺得我們的指引可以來做更細緻的討論也給地方政府說好那如果遇到這樣的狀況的時候你要怎麼畫\n\n08:18.502 --> 08:19.523\n不然他就一句話就說\n\n08:48.642 --> 08:49.423\n第三階段審議的時候我們會來做相關的一個審議\n\n09:05.418 --> 09:30.074\n而且最重要的是你知道他公告這些東西給居民知道的時候其實透過的方式是什麼是地方政府透過公展或者是新聞媒體刊登或者舉辦說明會結果你知道像新北市政府是什麼嗎新北市政府一共就是只有在五月的時候在五月二十七號開始在城鄉發展局的官網公告三十天然後二十七到三十天在中國時報刊三篇\n\n09:31.315 --> 09:31.516\n蘇巧慧委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":2.262,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4.005,"end":4.565,"text":"國土計畫推動辦理 國土計畫推動辦理"},{"start":30.75,"end":57.328,"text":"讓社會各界地方鄉親其實是有非常多的紛擾那我想我們立法委員作為民意代表就是來這裡反映民意的首先我想第一個請問部長這個引起很多紛爭的就是當自己的住宅當自己的農地當自己的工廠被劃到與自己想像中或者期待中不一樣的分類範圍的時候所引起的紛爭嘛引起的反映"},{"start":59.189,"end":74.723,"text":"我第一個問題是請問這個國土功能分區圖以使用地這個的繪製這個的繪圖是由哪個機關是中央還是地方有地方政府這有法規依據嗎有"},{"start":76.226,"end":76.546,"text":"當然這個並不正確當然並不正確吧"},{"start":106.172,"end":131.992,"text":"因為我們根據國土計畫法第22條非常明白的規定前兩項的國土功能分區圖及使用圖的繪製之辦理機關制定方法等等中央主管機關地質而因此定的辦法其實就是直轄市地方縣市主管機關所以我在這裡先替你洗白第一條先替你說清楚講明白第一條可是接下來我就想要問中央的責任了"},{"start":132.893,"end":160.347,"text":"部長我們分了幾類哈這個我們因為國土計畫法之後其實把台灣的海江、海域、土地分成了四大類就是這四大類國土保育地區、海洋資源地區、農業發展地區、城鄉發展地區沒有錯嘛對不對然後每一類下面又因為它的性質不同所以我們給予不同的管制又分了一二三四類對不對好那第一類如果是屬於D類的就是管制程度會比較多的是"},{"start":161.187,"end":162.848,"text":"目前還沒有,因為各縣市還沒有完全送過來"},{"start":189.183,"end":215.902,"text":"現在是草案,他們要送進來審對啊,但是他們送進來總是有一個版本的嘛你就應該先把那個版本送進來看看嘛你有沒有看過送進來的版本我放給你看看為了今天我們特別準備資料你看看這是我們台灣的地圖嘛你知道我這條紅線畫出來是什麼嗎這條紅線是我把我把所有地方縣市政府直轄市政府所有填的國土保育區"},{"start":217.534,"end":219.62,"text":"他們畫的區畫出來以後 中整起來以後台灣長這樣欸60%全部都變成國土保育區了 這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":228.688,"end":230.889,"text":"國土保育區的範圍全部都是還比較小"},{"start":249.714,"end":257.801,"text":"大部分是啦,但是有些不是啦我本來想說,看看部長你會怎麼回答還是說署長你這邊會怎麼回答你如果告訴我沒有啦,這條線畫出來的大部分都是山啦好,那我就要跟你跳下一張了下一張你知道這是哪裡嗎?這是我的選區因戈啦我的選區因戈,淵山堰水庫這裡"},{"start":273.14,"end":282.866,"text":"旁邊的這一大塊地全部被劃為國土保育區的一類最嚴格限制的就是國保一啦那國保一以後會怎麼樣?"},{"start":285.415,"end":305.607,"text":"國保1的限制還可以再蓋房子嗎還可以使用嗎好那請署長說明國保1因為國土保1地區大概因為台灣原來的山林地區大概就佔了73%是啦所以第二個就是說再加上原來在這個在相關的這個飲用水或是自來水對啦你的指引就是這樣寫的啦是不歸類於這樣嘛"},{"start":308.609,"end":323.66,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":323.78,"end":337.268,"text":"所以既存的建物可以照現在的使用方式繼續使用嗎?甚至包括買賣啊等等都可以嘛對不對只是他不能做地木的變更不能做其他農地不能變工廠嘛然後是住宅不能變商業對不對理論上是這樣嗎?對沒錯"},{"start":339.909,"end":354.418,"text":"好,那我給你看這塊地現在長,原來現況衛星圖給你看現在長什麼樣子現在你化為,不是你化為啦,現在經由新北市政府化為國寶一的因戈淵山淵水庫周圍地區的衛星圖"},{"start":357.059,"end":377.764,"text":"這完完全全就是住財的狀況啊!人口之密集、農業之發展就是這樣的狀況啊!所以他完全就符合你的但書嘛!就是寄存事實,他就是繼續使用嘛!所以他心情很擔心說我糟糕了我是國寶一可是你又用但書事實上他又是這樣來使用那請問那我就反過來問那請問他畫了國寶一的"},{"start":380.345,"end":382.327,"text":"所以理論上他那邊應該要保護嘛同意啦同意啦"},{"start":404.048,"end":404.889,"text":"蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧"},{"start":421.818,"end":450.618,"text":"在未來也可以透過他們自己的檢討需要再調整我同意啦我的每一個問題如果拆開來問的時候你都可以有答案回答我啦包括是說如果我要保育類的你就聽我說環境保護類的你就說我現在畫了國保一我如果是寄存這個在這裡的林裡的居民的話你就說我現在有單書讓你可以繼續用合起來都沒有每一條都沒有問題啦但是合起來你就會覺得說我們做這件事情的目的到底是什麼"},{"start":451.178,"end":451.258,"text":"﹚蘇巧慧﹚"},{"start":472.173,"end":497.882,"text":"其實可以來認真的調整一下尤其是各地方政府收集來的版本如果有出現這樣子的狀況的它又不能夠真正的保護又引起鄉親的困擾那我們是不是有機會在這種既存事實已經存在你可以調查一次完以後我覺得我們的指引可以來做更細緻的討論也給地方政府說好那如果遇到這樣的狀況的時候你要怎麼畫"},{"start":498.502,"end":499.523,"text":"不然他就一句話就說"},{"start":528.642,"end":529.423,"text":"第三階段審議的時候我們會來做相關的一個審議"},{"start":545.418,"end":570.074,"text":"而且最重要的是你知道他公告這些東西給居民知道的時候其實透過的方式是什麼是地方政府透過公展或者是新聞媒體刊登或者舉辦說明會結果你知道像新北市政府是什麼嗎新北市政府一共就是只有在五月的時候在五月二十七號開始在城鄉發展局的官網公告三十天然後二十七到三十天在中國時報刊三篇"},{"start":571.315,"end":571.516,"text":"蘇巧慧委員"}]}}}}