{"id":150148,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150148","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192429694bcd1449510753301a1aac7f2e9f8ba9b0039caa7a69b56c876cab7149e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:37:06 - 11:46:04","影片長度":"00:08:58","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就「國土計畫推動辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":538,"end_time":"2024-03-20T11:46:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T11:37:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":839,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時37分）謝謝主席。我們有請林右昌部長，還有國土署應該也可以一起。"],["主席：請部長跟署長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。我想今天的8個臨時提案裡面，還有好幾案都是大家很關心的社會住宅租金計算部分，我們昨天看到內政部有發一個新聞稿，新聞稿上面發布日期是3月19號，其中寫到社會住宅分級收費原則，到底是要用身分別還是要用收入？你們裡面提到臺北市跟桃園市政府表示支持認同並不反對，可是我們去瞭解一下今年2月21號相關的會議紀錄裡面，我們來看一下細節，當然臺北市政府談到認同這個草案的方向，可是它有講到流程面，在租金送部備查以後才能知道能不能夠優化；但更重要的是第二點，臺北市現行入住社會住宅的承租戶是以所得分級的方式，所以這個分類方式在最低第一階比例已超過50%，如果租金分級收費由所得分級改成身分別分級，是否反而會造成部分無法取得弱勢資格，但他其實經濟上有困難的承租戶是沒有辦法負擔租金，或者是經濟能力不差的弱勢戶反而享有比較高的補貼情形。所以臺北市政府的同意是指全國有一致的修正方向，同意，但並不是今天把所謂的分級從所得別變成身分別，這個對臺北市政府來說是有幫助的。","再來，臺北市政府目前的社會住宅相較於其他縣市是比較多的，而且像在我自己的選區裡面，像在信義區廣慈博愛園區社宅也有很多的租戶，目前臺灣社會住宅發展的還不錯的原因是比較沒有被貼標籤化，因為裡面有很多年輕的小夫妻，他們可能在經濟條件上並不是很好，但他們沒有特殊的身分別。部長，我等一下會給你時間回應，但我們先看一下目前各社宅的租金收費模式，按照收入別去計價的包含臺北市、新北市、桃園也都是如此，這些城市也剛好都是目前全國社會住宅數量比較多的，這也意味著如果我們從收入別改成身分別會影響到很多目前現有各縣市的收費標準。臺北市政府從110年到現在跟國土署開了四次會，那兩次都發函建議中央用所得分級制度或授權地方政府制定補貼，我們想要問一下到底現在要採用身分別而不用收入別的原因是什麼？為什麼不採取臺北、新北跟桃園目前的社宅收費方式？"],["林部長右昌：委員，謝謝。其實我們大家的政策目標都是一致的，我先澄清說明一點，並不是把身分別強制改成……對不起，是把收入別強制改成是身分別，其實身分別跟收入別可以同步持續，這個沒有問題，也就是現在臺北市用身分別，它未來如果要……對不起，它如果用所得別，它未來如果要繼續用所得別，我們給予尊重。這次內政部的想法最主要的是我們所訂定的有幾個配套，它在訂的是一個天花板，我們的目的是要去降低社會住宅的租金負擔，另外就是剛剛提到的低薪青年、還有邊緣戶，所以我們是把整個住宅的負擔往下降。","過去我們在做計算基準的時候是用所得收入的30%作為可負擔，我們現在把這個部分從30%降到20%作為計算的基點，這是第一個；第二個，我們最近可能會有很多新蓋好的社宅，所以大家擔心當你去評估旁邊的租金市價時，這會讓社宅的租金比較高，但我們現在的作法是N+10年，亦即如果它是新蓋好的社宅是加10年，用周邊10年中古屋的租金水準來做計算基準，這是第二點。另外，我們也參考了大家的意見，把打折的級數做了增加，比如從原本打五折可以變成打四五折、打三折，簡單來講就是整個往下降，往下降了之後變成是一個天花板，所有其他的縣市如果在這個天花板以下的話，我們都樂觀其成。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你認為在現在改制之後，反而現在的社宅租金會往下降？"],["林部長右昌：是，因為我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：不同的身分別也都會往下降？"],["林部長右昌：它會往下降。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有搭配到這一些特殊身分別的人，他也會往下降？"],["林部長右昌：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們以臺北市社會住宅一期的套房型來計算，如果有一位青年的收入是基本工資2萬7,470元，另外一位收入是4萬7,000元，在都沒有弱勢身分的狀況之下，臺北市如果按照分級收費標準跟內政部身分別市價打折的租金變動，他們就會出現價差啊！"],["林部長右昌：委員剛剛已經跟你報告過了，我們尊重臺北市，如果臺北市要用身分別，我們尊重，但我們會計算出一個標準出來，對不起！我講錯了，剛剛臺北市是用所得別，我們會計算一個基準出來，只要它在所謂的基準以下，這個我們都是尊重。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，只要你們跟地方政府，第一、能夠溝通好，第二、能夠保護到一般民眾的權益，不要因為他沒有特殊的身分，因為現在非常多年輕朋友很擔心你們的政策，我們基本上都希望社會住宅發展得更好，但是您看，我們剛才也才不過講5分鐘的時間而已，您在身分別跟所得別就已經講錯了五、六次，你自己都經常會講錯，當然我們的政策傳播出去的時候，大家會搞不清楚。所以這一點是希望你們的溝通要做得更好，而且臺北市、桃園跟新北，我們還是覺得用收入去制定會比較好，這是地方政府的想法。","最後一點時間想跟您談一下，現在社宅也有一些社會案件發生，大家發現社宅出問題的時候，各個單位互相踢皮球、沒有整合性，我想要問一下未來內政部在社宅的部分，除了蓋社宅以外，你們有沒有能夠規劃更多的社會福利、包含是居住福利的整合機構進去？我舉一個比較清楚的案例，像我們廣慈社宅先前就有發生性侵的案件，當地里長他們的服務壓力很大，因為等於是一次進來上千戶，變成里長按照他們原本的一些工作去做的話，真的是不堪負荷，因為需要政府配套措施，社福比例的比重也大幅的拉高。我們也都知道，其實很多的社宅分工都丟給物業管，這個是沒有幫助的，所以我會在這邊具體建議，你們今天不用回復沒關係，拜託回去評估，未來整個中央，除了在社宅部分，是不是針對社宅的管理，不只丟給物業，我們還有政府的資源能夠注入，去協助整個地方上跟社宅居民的互動？一方面保護，二方面也拒絕讓社宅未來長期之後被貼上負面標籤。"],["林部長右昌：委員剛剛講的這個意見，我完全贊成，我一直強調社會住宅是好宅，所以社會住宅不是像過去講的是在照顧弱勢而已，我們希望它未來是我們臺灣社會一個新的居住環境品質、一個新的指標，所以我一直在強調，社會住宅未來其實是好宅這樣一個概念。"],["徐委員巧芯：麻煩後續再做更詳細的盤點，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員，也謝謝部長跟署長。接下來我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","蘇巧慧","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:17,893\n謝謝主席我想我們有請林耀昌部長還有那個國土署應該也可以請請部長跟署長部長好我想今天的8個臨時提案裡面還有好幾案都是大家很關心這個社會住宅的租金計算的部分我們昨天看到這個內政部\n\n2\n00:00:35,599 --> 00:00:56,905\n有發一個新聞稿新聞稿上面寫發佈日期是3月19號那寫到這個所謂的社會住宅分級收費原則到底是要用身份別還是要用收入你們裡面提到說台北市跟桃園市政府表示支持認同並不反對\n\n3\n00:00:57,985 --> 00:01:26,227\n可是呢我們去看了瞭解一下這個2月21號今年這個相關的會議記錄裡面我們來看一下細節台北市政府當然他談到說認同這個草案的方向可是呢他有講到流程面在租金送付被查以後才能知道能不能夠優化但更重要的是第二點台北市目前現行入住社會住宅的成租戶是以所得分級的方式\n\n4\n00:01:26,947 --> 00:01:47,770\n所以這個分類方式在最低階的比率超過50%如果租金分級收費所得由分級改成身份別分級的話是否反而會造成部分無法取得弱勢資格但他其實經濟上有困難的成租戶是沒有辦法負擔租金\n\n5\n00:01:48,351 --> 00:01:48,731\n﹚徐巧芯﹚\n\n6\n00:02:08,641 --> 00:02:30,619\n再來,台北市政府目前的社會住宅是相較其他縣市比較多的而且像我自己的選區裡面像在信義區、廣慈、博愛園區它的這個社宅也有很多的租戶那目前台灣的社會住宅發展還不錯的原因是因為裡面比較沒有被貼標籤化因為裡面有很多的年輕的\n\n7\n00:02:31,900 --> 00:02:33,020\n目前各社宅的租金收費模式按照收入別去計價的包含台北市、新北市、桃園也都是如此\n\n8\n00:02:53,308 --> 00:03:22,092\n那這些城市也當剛好都是目前全國社會住宅的數量比較多的這也意味著如果我們從收入別改成了身分別會影響到很多現在現有各縣市的收費標準那台北市政府從110年到現在跟國土署我們開了4次會那兩次都發函建議中央用分級所的制度或授權地方政府制定補貼那我們想要問一下到底\n\n9\n00:03:22,652 --> 00:03:49,442\n現在要採用身分別而不用收入的原因是什麼為什麼不採取臺北、新北跟桃園目前的社宅收費方式委員謝謝其實我們大家的一個政策目標都是一致的那我先澄清說明一點並不是把說身分別強制改成對不起把收入別強制改成是身分別其實身分別跟收入別它可以\n\n10\n00:03:50,162 --> 00:03:50,883\n內政部委員會主席\n\n11\n00:04:10,638 --> 00:04:32,002\n他訂的是一個天花板業就是我們目的是要去降低社會住宅的租金的負擔然後另外就是剛剛在提到的低薪的青年還有邊緣戶所以我們是把整個的住宅的負擔把它往下降那過去我們在做計算基準的時候是用所得的收入30%作為所謂的可負擔我們現在把這個部分整個降從30降到20%來作為計算的基點這是第一個\n\n12\n00:04:38,823 --> 00:05:03,548\n第二個是我們最近可能會有很多新蓋好的社宅所以大家擔心說你去評估旁邊的所謂的租金市價的時候你會讓社宅的租金會比較高但我們現在的做法是N加10年也就是說它如果是新蓋好的社宅的話是加10年用周邊10年的中古屋的租金的水準來做計算的基準這是第二點\n\n13\n00:05:04,088 --> 00:05:24,845\n另外我們也參考了大家的意見把這個打折的這個級數把它做了增加比如說從原本打五折可以變成打四五折打三折所以簡單來講就整個往下降往下降了之後變成是一個天花板那這個所有其他的縣市如果在這個天花板以下的話我們都樂觀其成\n\n14\n00:05:25,706 --> 00:05:39,342\n所以你認為說現在的改制之後反而現在的社宅的租金會往下降不同的身分別他也都會往下降他沒有搭配到這些特殊身分別的人他也會往下降\n\n15\n00:05:40,643 --> 00:06:04,948\n在我們以臺北市的社會住宅一期的套房型來計算那如果有一個青年他的收入是27470基本工資那另外一位收入是47000在都沒有弱勢身份的狀況之下臺北市如果按照分級收費標準跟內政部身份市價打折的租金變動他們就會出現價差\n\n16\n00:06:06,688 --> 00:06:21,025\n委員剛剛已經跟你報告過了我們尊重臺北市如果臺北市要用身分別我們尊重但我們會計算出一個標準出來就是說不管他用對不起我講錯剛剛臺北市用所得別\n\n17\n00:06:21,845 --> 00:06:42,771\n我們會計算一個基準出來他只要在這個所謂的基準以下只要你們跟地方政府第一能夠溝通好第二能夠保護到我們一般民眾的權益不要因為他沒有這個特殊的身份因為現在非常多年輕朋友很擔心你們的政策我們基本上都希望社會住宅發展的更好\n\n18\n00:06:43,271 --> 00:06:54,598\n但是您看剛才我們也才不過講5分鐘的時間而已那您在身分別跟這個所謂的收入比阿所得就已經講錯5、6次當然你自己都經常會講錯當然我們的政策傳播出去的時候大家會搞不清楚所以這一點是希望你們的溝通要做得更好而且臺北市跟桃園跟新北我們還是覺得用收入去制定呢會比較好這是地方政府的想法\n\n19\n00:07:09,506 --> 00:07:34,301\n最後一點時間想跟您談一下就是說現在社宅裡面也有一些這個社會案件發生那大家發現這個社宅出問題的時候各個單位互相踢皮球沒有整合性我想問一下未來在這個內政部這裡我們社宅的部分除了蓋社宅以外我們有沒有能夠規劃更多的一些社會福利包含是居住福利的整合機構進去\n\n20\n00:07:35,262 --> 00:07:54,962\n我舉一個比較清楚的案例像我們在廣慈社宅這邊先前就有發生性侵的案件那當地的里長他們的服務壓力很大因為等於是一次進來上千戶那變成是說里長按照原本的一些他們的工作去做的話真的是不堪負荷\n\n21\n00:07:55,322 --> 00:07:55,662\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n22\n00:08:15,385 --> 00:08:31,476\n是不是針對社宅的管理不只丟給物業我們還有政府的資源能夠注入去協助在整個地方上面跟社宅的居民的互動一方面保護二方面也拒絕讓社宅未來長期之後被貼上負面標籤\n\n23\n00:08:32,216 --> 00:08:32,997\n徐巧芯\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9970\t17893\t謝謝主席我想我們有請林耀昌部長還有那個國土署應該也可以請請部長跟署長部長好我想今天的8個臨時提案裡面還有好幾案都是大家很關心這個社會住宅的租金計算的部分我們昨天看到這個內政部\n35599\t56905\t有發一個新聞稿新聞稿上面寫發佈日期是3月19號那寫到這個所謂的社會住宅分級收費原則到底是要用身份別還是要用收入你們裡面提到說台北市跟桃園市政府表示支持認同並不反對\n57985\t86227\t可是呢我們去看了瞭解一下這個2月21號今年這個相關的會議記錄裡面我們來看一下細節台北市政府當然他談到說認同這個草案的方向可是呢他有講到流程面在租金送付被查以後才能知道能不能夠優化但更重要的是第二點台北市目前現行入住社會住宅的成租戶是以所得分級的方式\n86947\t107770\t所以這個分類方式在最低階的比率超過50%如果租金分級收費所得由分級改成身份別分級的話是否反而會造成部分無法取得弱勢資格但他其實經濟上有困難的成租戶是沒有辦法負擔租金\n108351\t108731\t﹚徐巧芯﹚\n128641\t150619\t再來,台北市政府目前的社會住宅是相較其他縣市比較多的而且像我自己的選區裡面像在信義區、廣慈、博愛園區它的這個社宅也有很多的租戶那目前台灣的社會住宅發展還不錯的原因是因為裡面比較沒有被貼標籤化因為裡面有很多的年輕的\n151900\t153020\t目前各社宅的租金收費模式按照收入別去計價的包含台北市、新北市、桃園也都是如此\n173308\t202092\t那這些城市也當剛好都是目前全國社會住宅的數量比較多的這也意味著如果我們從收入別改成了身分別會影響到很多現在現有各縣市的收費標準那台北市政府從110年到現在跟國土署我們開了4次會那兩次都發函建議中央用分級所的制度或授權地方政府制定補貼那我們想要問一下到底\n202652\t229442\t現在要採用身分別而不用收入的原因是什麼為什麼不採取臺北、新北跟桃園目前的社宅收費方式委員謝謝其實我們大家的一個政策目標都是一致的那我先澄清說明一點並不是把說身分別強制改成對不起 把收入別強制改成是身分別其實身分別跟收入別它可以\n230162\t230883\t內政部委員會主席\n250638\t272002\t他訂的是一個天花板業就是我們目的是要去降低社會住宅的租金的負擔然後另外就是剛剛在提到的低薪的青年還有邊緣戶所以我們是把整個的住宅的負擔把它往下降那過去我們在做計算基準的時候是用所得的收入30%作為所謂的可負擔我們現在把這個部分整個降從30降到20%來作為計算的基點這是第一個\n278823\t303548\t第二個是我們最近可能會有很多新蓋好的社宅所以大家擔心說你去評估旁邊的所謂的租金市價的時候你會讓社宅的租金會比較高但我們現在的做法是N加10年也就是說它如果是新蓋好的社宅的話是加10年用周邊10年的中古屋的租金的水準來做計算的基準這是第二點\n304088\t324845\t另外我們也參考了大家的意見把這個打折的這個級數把它做了增加比如說從原本打五折可以變成打四五折打三折所以簡單來講就整個往下降往下降了之後變成是一個天花板那這個所有其他的縣市如果在這個天花板以下的話我們都樂觀其成\n325706\t339342\t所以你認為說現在的改制之後反而現在的社宅的租金會往下降不同的身分別他也都會往下降他沒有搭配到這些特殊身分別的人他也會往下降\n340643\t364948\t在我們以臺北市的社會住宅一期的套房型來計算那如果有一個青年他的收入是27470基本工資那另外一位收入是47000在都沒有弱勢身份的狀況之下臺北市如果按照分級收費標準跟內政部身份市價打折的租金變動他們就會出現價差\n366688\t381025\t委員剛剛已經跟你報告過了我們尊重臺北市如果臺北市要用身分別我們尊重但我們會計算出一個標準出來就是說不管他用對不起我講錯剛剛臺北市用所得別\n381845\t402771\t我們會計算一個基準出來他只要在這個所謂的基準以下只要你們跟地方政府第一能夠溝通好第二能夠保護到我們一般民眾的權益不要因為他沒有這個特殊的身份因為現在非常多年輕朋友很擔心你們的政策我們基本上都希望社會住宅發展的更好\n403271\t414598\t但是您看剛才我們也才不過講5分鐘的時間而已那您在身分別跟這個所謂的收入比阿所得就已經講錯5、6次當然你自己都經常會講錯當然我們的政策傳播出去的時候大家會搞不清楚所以這一點是希望你們的溝通要做得更好而且臺北市跟桃園跟新北我們還是覺得用收入去制定呢會比較好這是地方政府的想法\n429506\t454301\t最後一點時間想跟您談一下就是說現在社宅裡面也有一些這個社會案件發生那大家發現這個社宅出問題的時候各個單位互相踢皮球沒有整合性我想問一下未來在這個內政部這裡我們社宅的部分除了蓋社宅以外我們有沒有能夠規劃更多的一些社會福利包含是居住福利的整合機構進去\n455262\t474962\t我舉一個比較清楚的案例像我們在廣慈社宅這邊先前就有發生性侵的案件那當地的里長他們的服務壓力很大因為等於是一次進來上千戶那變成是說里長按照原本的一些他們的工作去做的話真的是不堪負荷\n475322\t475662\t徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n495385\t511476\t是不是針對社宅的管理不只丟給物業我們還有政府的資源能夠注入去協助在整個地方上面跟社宅的居民的互動一方面保護二方面也拒絕讓社宅未來長期之後被貼上負面標籤\n512216\t512997\t徐巧芯\n","txt":"謝謝主席我想我們有請林耀昌部長還有那個國土署應該也可以請請部長跟署長部長好我想今天的8個臨時提案裡面還有好幾案都是大家很關心這個社會住宅的租金計算的部分我們昨天看到這個內政部\n有發一個新聞稿新聞稿上面寫發佈日期是3月19號那寫到這個所謂的社會住宅分級收費原則到底是要用身份別還是要用收入你們裡面提到說台北市跟桃園市政府表示支持認同並不反對\n可是呢我們去看了瞭解一下這個2月21號今年這個相關的會議記錄裡面我們來看一下細節台北市政府當然他談到說認同這個草案的方向可是呢他有講到流程面在租金送付被查以後才能知道能不能夠優化但更重要的是第二點台北市目前現行入住社會住宅的成租戶是以所得分級的方式\n所以這個分類方式在最低階的比率超過50%如果租金分級收費所得由分級改成身份別分級的話是否反而會造成部分無法取得弱勢資格但他其實經濟上有困難的成租戶是沒有辦法負擔租金\n﹚徐巧芯﹚\n再來,台北市政府目前的社會住宅是相較其他縣市比較多的而且像我自己的選區裡面像在信義區、廣慈、博愛園區它的這個社宅也有很多的租戶那目前台灣的社會住宅發展還不錯的原因是因為裡面比較沒有被貼標籤化因為裡面有很多的年輕的\n目前各社宅的租金收費模式按照收入別去計價的包含台北市、新北市、桃園也都是如此\n那這些城市也當剛好都是目前全國社會住宅的數量比較多的這也意味著如果我們從收入別改成了身分別會影響到很多現在現有各縣市的收費標準那台北市政府從110年到現在跟國土署我們開了4次會那兩次都發函建議中央用分級所的制度或授權地方政府制定補貼那我們想要問一下到底\n現在要採用身分別而不用收入的原因是什麼為什麼不採取臺北、新北跟桃園目前的社宅收費方式委員謝謝其實我們大家的一個政策目標都是一致的那我先澄清說明一點並不是把說身分別強制改成對不起 把收入別強制改成是身分別其實身分別跟收入別它可以\n內政部委員會主席\n他訂的是一個天花板業就是我們目的是要去降低社會住宅的租金的負擔然後另外就是剛剛在提到的低薪的青年還有邊緣戶所以我們是把整個的住宅的負擔把它往下降那過去我們在做計算基準的時候是用所得的收入30%作為所謂的可負擔我們現在把這個部分整個降從30降到20%來作為計算的基點這是第一個\n第二個是我們最近可能會有很多新蓋好的社宅所以大家擔心說你去評估旁邊的所謂的租金市價的時候你會讓社宅的租金會比較高但我們現在的做法是N加10年也就是說它如果是新蓋好的社宅的話是加10年用周邊10年的中古屋的租金的水準來做計算的基準這是第二點\n另外我們也參考了大家的意見把這個打折的這個級數把它做了增加比如說從原本打五折可以變成打四五折打三折所以簡單來講就整個往下降往下降了之後變成是一個天花板那這個所有其他的縣市如果在這個天花板以下的話我們都樂觀其成\n所以你認為說現在的改制之後反而現在的社宅的租金會往下降不同的身分別他也都會往下降他沒有搭配到這些特殊身分別的人他也會往下降\n在我們以臺北市的社會住宅一期的套房型來計算那如果有一個青年他的收入是27470基本工資那另外一位收入是47000在都沒有弱勢身份的狀況之下臺北市如果按照分級收費標準跟內政部身份市價打折的租金變動他們就會出現價差\n委員剛剛已經跟你報告過了我們尊重臺北市如果臺北市要用身分別我們尊重但我們會計算出一個標準出來就是說不管他用對不起我講錯剛剛臺北市用所得別\n我們會計算一個基準出來他只要在這個所謂的基準以下只要你們跟地方政府第一能夠溝通好第二能夠保護到我們一般民眾的權益不要因為他沒有這個特殊的身份因為現在非常多年輕朋友很擔心你們的政策我們基本上都希望社會住宅發展的更好\n但是您看剛才我們也才不過講5分鐘的時間而已那您在身分別跟這個所謂的收入比阿所得就已經講錯5、6次當然你自己都經常會講錯當然我們的政策傳播出去的時候大家會搞不清楚所以這一點是希望你們的溝通要做得更好而且臺北市跟桃園跟新北我們還是覺得用收入去制定呢會比較好這是地方政府的想法\n最後一點時間想跟您談一下就是說現在社宅裡面也有一些這個社會案件發生那大家發現這個社宅出問題的時候各個單位互相踢皮球沒有整合性我想問一下未來在這個內政部這裡我們社宅的部分除了蓋社宅以外我們有沒有能夠規劃更多的一些社會福利包含是居住福利的整合機構進去\n我舉一個比較清楚的案例像我們在廣慈社宅這邊先前就有發生性侵的案件那當地的里長他們的服務壓力很大因為等於是一次進來上千戶那變成是說里長按照原本的一些他們的工作去做的話真的是不堪負荷\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n是不是針對社宅的管理不只丟給物業我們還有政府的資源能夠注入去協助在整個地方上面跟社宅的居民的互動一方面保護二方面也拒絕讓社宅未來長期之後被貼上負面標籤\n徐巧芯\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.970 --> 00:17.893\n謝謝主席我想我們有請林耀昌部長還有那個國土署應該也可以請請部長跟署長部長好我想今天的8個臨時提案裡面還有好幾案都是大家很關心這個社會住宅的租金計算的部分我們昨天看到這個內政部\n\n00:35.599 --> 00:56.905\n有發一個新聞稿新聞稿上面寫發佈日期是3月19號那寫到這個所謂的社會住宅分級收費原則到底是要用身份別還是要用收入你們裡面提到說台北市跟桃園市政府表示支持認同並不反對\n\n00:57.985 --> 01:26.227\n可是呢我們去看了瞭解一下這個2月21號今年這個相關的會議記錄裡面我們來看一下細節台北市政府當然他談到說認同這個草案的方向可是呢他有講到流程面在租金送付被查以後才能知道能不能夠優化但更重要的是第二點台北市目前現行入住社會住宅的成租戶是以所得分級的方式\n\n01:26.947 --> 01:47.770\n所以這個分類方式在最低階的比率超過50%如果租金分級收費所得由分級改成身份別分級的話是否反而會造成部分無法取得弱勢資格但他其實經濟上有困難的成租戶是沒有辦法負擔租金\n\n01:48.351 --> 01:48.731\n﹚徐巧芯﹚\n\n02:08.641 --> 02:30.619\n再來,台北市政府目前的社會住宅是相較其他縣市比較多的而且像我自己的選區裡面像在信義區、廣慈、博愛園區它的這個社宅也有很多的租戶那目前台灣的社會住宅發展還不錯的原因是因為裡面比較沒有被貼標籤化因為裡面有很多的年輕的\n\n02:31.900 --> 02:33.020\n目前各社宅的租金收費模式按照收入別去計價的包含台北市、新北市、桃園也都是如此\n\n02:53.308 --> 03:22.092\n那這些城市也當剛好都是目前全國社會住宅的數量比較多的這也意味著如果我們從收入別改成了身分別會影響到很多現在現有各縣市的收費標準那台北市政府從110年到現在跟國土署我們開了4次會那兩次都發函建議中央用分級所的制度或授權地方政府制定補貼那我們想要問一下到底\n\n03:22.652 --> 03:49.442\n現在要採用身分別而不用收入的原因是什麼為什麼不採取臺北、新北跟桃園目前的社宅收費方式委員謝謝其實我們大家的一個政策目標都是一致的那我先澄清說明一點並不是把說身分別強制改成對不起把收入別強制改成是身分別其實身分別跟收入別它可以\n\n03:50.162 --> 03:50.883\n內政部委員會主席\n\n04:10.638 --> 04:32.002\n他訂的是一個天花板業就是我們目的是要去降低社會住宅的租金的負擔然後另外就是剛剛在提到的低薪的青年還有邊緣戶所以我們是把整個的住宅的負擔把它往下降那過去我們在做計算基準的時候是用所得的收入30%作為所謂的可負擔我們現在把這個部分整個降從30降到20%來作為計算的基點這是第一個\n\n04:38.823 --> 05:03.548\n第二個是我們最近可能會有很多新蓋好的社宅所以大家擔心說你去評估旁邊的所謂的租金市價的時候你會讓社宅的租金會比較高但我們現在的做法是N加10年也就是說它如果是新蓋好的社宅的話是加10年用周邊10年的中古屋的租金的水準來做計算的基準這是第二點\n\n05:04.088 --> 05:24.845\n另外我們也參考了大家的意見把這個打折的這個級數把它做了增加比如說從原本打五折可以變成打四五折打三折所以簡單來講就整個往下降往下降了之後變成是一個天花板那這個所有其他的縣市如果在這個天花板以下的話我們都樂觀其成\n\n05:25.706 --> 05:39.342\n所以你認為說現在的改制之後反而現在的社宅的租金會往下降不同的身分別他也都會往下降他沒有搭配到這些特殊身分別的人他也會往下降\n\n05:40.643 --> 06:04.948\n在我們以臺北市的社會住宅一期的套房型來計算那如果有一個青年他的收入是27470基本工資那另外一位收入是47000在都沒有弱勢身份的狀況之下臺北市如果按照分級收費標準跟內政部身份市價打折的租金變動他們就會出現價差\n\n06:06.688 --> 06:21.025\n委員剛剛已經跟你報告過了我們尊重臺北市如果臺北市要用身分別我們尊重但我們會計算出一個標準出來就是說不管他用對不起我講錯剛剛臺北市用所得別\n\n06:21.845 --> 06:42.771\n我們會計算一個基準出來他只要在這個所謂的基準以下只要你們跟地方政府第一能夠溝通好第二能夠保護到我們一般民眾的權益不要因為他沒有這個特殊的身份因為現在非常多年輕朋友很擔心你們的政策我們基本上都希望社會住宅發展的更好\n\n06:43.271 --> 06:54.598\n但是您看剛才我們也才不過講5分鐘的時間而已那您在身分別跟這個所謂的收入比阿所得就已經講錯5、6次當然你自己都經常會講錯當然我們的政策傳播出去的時候大家會搞不清楚所以這一點是希望你們的溝通要做得更好而且臺北市跟桃園跟新北我們還是覺得用收入去制定呢會比較好這是地方政府的想法\n\n07:09.506 --> 07:34.301\n最後一點時間想跟您談一下就是說現在社宅裡面也有一些這個社會案件發生那大家發現這個社宅出問題的時候各個單位互相踢皮球沒有整合性我想問一下未來在這個內政部這裡我們社宅的部分除了蓋社宅以外我們有沒有能夠規劃更多的一些社會福利包含是居住福利的整合機構進去\n\n07:35.262 --> 07:54.962\n我舉一個比較清楚的案例像我們在廣慈社宅這邊先前就有發生性侵的案件那當地的里長他們的服務壓力很大因為等於是一次進來上千戶那變成是說里長按照原本的一些他們的工作去做的話真的是不堪負荷\n\n07:55.322 --> 07:55.662\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n08:15.385 --> 08:31.476\n是不是針對社宅的管理不只丟給物業我們還有政府的資源能夠注入去協助在整個地方上面跟社宅的居民的互動一方面保護二方面也拒絕讓社宅未來長期之後被貼上負面標籤\n\n08:32.216 --> 08:32.997\n徐巧芯\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.97,"end":17.893,"text":"謝謝主席我想我們有請林耀昌部長還有那個國土署應該也可以請請部長跟署長部長好我想今天的8個臨時提案裡面還有好幾案都是大家很關心這個社會住宅的租金計算的部分我們昨天看到這個內政部"},{"start":35.599,"end":56.905,"text":"有發一個新聞稿新聞稿上面寫發佈日期是3月19號那寫到這個所謂的社會住宅分級收費原則到底是要用身份別還是要用收入你們裡面提到說台北市跟桃園市政府表示支持認同並不反對"},{"start":57.985,"end":86.227,"text":"可是呢我們去看了瞭解一下這個2月21號今年這個相關的會議記錄裡面我們來看一下細節台北市政府當然他談到說認同這個草案的方向可是呢他有講到流程面在租金送付被查以後才能知道能不能夠優化但更重要的是第二點台北市目前現行入住社會住宅的成租戶是以所得分級的方式"},{"start":86.947,"end":107.77,"text":"所以這個分類方式在最低階的比率超過50%如果租金分級收費所得由分級改成身份別分級的話是否反而會造成部分無法取得弱勢資格但他其實經濟上有困難的成租戶是沒有辦法負擔租金"},{"start":108.351,"end":108.731,"text":"﹚徐巧芯﹚"},{"start":128.641,"end":150.619,"text":"再來,台北市政府目前的社會住宅是相較其他縣市比較多的而且像我自己的選區裡面像在信義區、廣慈、博愛園區它的這個社宅也有很多的租戶那目前台灣的社會住宅發展還不錯的原因是因為裡面比較沒有被貼標籤化因為裡面有很多的年輕的"},{"start":151.9,"end":153.02,"text":"目前各社宅的租金收費模式按照收入別去計價的包含台北市、新北市、桃園也都是如此"},{"start":173.308,"end":202.092,"text":"那這些城市也當剛好都是目前全國社會住宅的數量比較多的這也意味著如果我們從收入別改成了身分別會影響到很多現在現有各縣市的收費標準那台北市政府從110年到現在跟國土署我們開了4次會那兩次都發函建議中央用分級所的制度或授權地方政府制定補貼那我們想要問一下到底"},{"start":202.652,"end":229.442,"text":"現在要採用身分別而不用收入的原因是什麼為什麼不採取臺北、新北跟桃園目前的社宅收費方式委員謝謝其實我們大家的一個政策目標都是一致的那我先澄清說明一點並不是把說身分別強制改成對不起 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