{"id":150164,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150164","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f19276cb74c0de8e276eed861a3b97380652f8ba9b0039caa7a6f2f4c7b5986f42ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:15:34 - 12:23:09","影片長度":"00:07:35","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案45案。[如經院會復議，則不予處理或審查]\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-4"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":455,"end_time":"2024-03-20T12:23:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T12:15:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1113,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時15分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。原住民族基本法第二十條規定，政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利。土地的部分，基本上都是國有土地，而國有土地又包含了財政部主管的、農業部主管的、當然還有經濟部主管的。在原住民族基本法還未公布施行之前，民國76年臺灣省政府就因應實際上的需要，而這個需要是因為當初相關的法制不完備，導致原住民族很多的土地，尤其是一直使用耕作的土地，因為沒有登記才會全部被登記為國有，才會開始有所謂的增劃編原住民保留地，部長過去在國產署也協助解決了很多。這段時間就所有中央的工廠管理機關而言，財政部國產署確實是最支持的，但還是有一些需要突破的地方。","第一個，有很多我們鄉親一直在使用的土地並沒有承租，而承租鄰地的人不是原住民，土地間的狀況或是有重疊、或是有高低落差，譬如一個在這麼高的地方、一個在這麼矮的地方，但地號是同一個，實際上他是使用下面的土地，我是使用上面的土地，只是因為那個地方有承租人，而且不是原住民。在這樣的情況之下，有租約、有承租，按照國產署的資料是有另外的承租人，事實上是我在使用啊！原住民在使用啊！但是因為被出租了，一直都沒辦法解決這方面的問題。","雖然另外的鄰地所有人證明確實是他在使用、一直是他在使用，符合增劃編保留地的條件，或是有其他部落的頭目、耆老證明或是村長證明，但你們的資料就還是別人在承租啊！有不少這樣的個案，像這種的就是要去突破，最起碼租約也會期滿啊！租約期滿或是變更契約啊！因為他實際沒有使用，如果能證明他確實沒有實際使用，這個部分是不是應該要解決，部長？"],["莊部長翠雲：國有土地的出租，基本上是出租給實際使用人，如果按照委員剛剛敘述的，這個承租人承租的範圍是一整個地號，但實際上並沒有用那麼多，對不對？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：旁邊是有原住民同胞在使用，這個部分就涉及到租約範圍的調整，那要看實地的使用情形，並確認原住民同胞使用的部分不是我們承租人實際使用，所以就涉及到租約範圍的調整。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，只要能夠證明。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，如果能夠確實證明以及實地的一些勘查資料。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。"],["莊部長翠雲：關於這個部分，我不知道實務上是不是有這樣的一個狀況，當然你說實務上有很多案例，我們在處理上是不是發生了一些沒有處理的情形……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們有個案的時候再逐案處理。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們來逐案處理，這樣好不好？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。部長，這個是陳年老案，魚池鄉這個區塊住的是我們邵族的鄉親，臺灣原住民族人口最少的邵族鄉親，原本邵族這個民族是位於日月潭的潭裡面，因為日據時代蓋這個日月潭才把他們遷到這邊，但是遷到這邊來之後並沒有給他們土地所有權，一直到民國七十幾年，吳敦義擔任南投縣長時說要市地重劃，但是他們都沒辦法被分配，為什麼沒辦法被分配？因為他們沒有土地所有權啊！沒有辦法被分配！為了解決邵族鄉親的問題，那時候我在臺灣省政府，我們就讓他們增劃編原住民保留地，先增劃編保留地，再辦市地重劃。辦了市地重劃之後，原本我在這邊的土地可能會被劃到另外一邊，因為是市地重劃嘛！對不對？原本這筆土地上有房子，譬如我的土地被重劃到另一邊，但我的房子還在原處，只是土地可能被分配成別人的，但是因為大家都是同鄉、都是自己人，所以就讓原屋主繼續住。針對這樣的問題，我召開過很多次協調會，行政院中辦也開過協調會，所以我們要很務實的處理這個部分。因為時間的關係，我要請署長針對實際的問題，尤其是那個被重劃、被分配的人也承認房子確實就是他的，所以這個部分我們要以實際的問題去解決，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員不在。","接下來請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王世堅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","李坤城","黃珊珊","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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\"口\", \"start\": 321.218, \"end\": 321.398, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 321.398, \"end\": 321.618, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 321.618, \"end\": 321.858, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 321.858, \"end\": 322.218, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"邵\", \"start\": 322.218, \"end\": 322.438, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"族\", \"start\": 322.438, \"end\": 322.558, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 322.558, \"end\": 324.078, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"鄉\"}, {\"word\": \"親\"}, {\"word\": \"邵\", \"start\": 324.078, \"end\": 325.699, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"族\", \"start\": 325.699, \"end\": 325.979, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 325.979, \"end\": 326.179, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"族\", \"start\": 326.179, \"end\": 327.239, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 327.239, \"end\": 327.579, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", 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\"長\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 434.206, \"end\": 434.306, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"訪\"}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 434.306, \"end\": 434.406, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 434.406, \"end\": 434.426, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:15,773 --> 00:00:17,613\n主席各位委員有請部長有請莊部長委員好部長好\n\n2\n00:00:27,033 --> 00:00:55,807\n原住民族基本法政府第20條規定政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利土地的部分基本上都是國有土地國有土地裡面包含財政部所主管的還有農業部主管的當然還有經濟部主管的這些土地\n\n3\n00:00:56,909 --> 00:01:24,170\n當然這個原住民族基本法還沒有公布施行之前在民國76年台灣省政府就因應實際上的一個需要而這個需要是當初因為相關的這些法制不完備導致原住民族很多的土地尤其是一直使用耕作的土地\n\n4\n00:01:26,004 --> 00:01:46,927\n因為沒有登記所以全部被登記為國有才會開始有所謂的真化編原住民保留地這個部長過去在國產署也協助解決了很多那這段時間也切實救所有的\n\n5\n00:01:48,434 --> 00:02:14,228\n這工廠管理機關來講在中央的工廠管理機關而言這個財政部國產署是最支持的但是還是有一些需要去突破的地方第一個就是說這個很多我們的土地我們鄉親在使用的土地一直都在使用但是因為沒有這個成豬\n\n6\n00:02:17,264 --> 00:02:34,598\n我們有成豬然後會跟林地林地有成豬而成豬的人不是原住民或是有重疊或是那個高低落差有時候土地一個地號比如說這個我們就講這個這個地\n\n7\n00:02:40,919 --> 00:03:08,838\n有高低落差但是地號是同一個這麼高的地方這個這麼矮的地方實際上使用他只有使用到下面的那我使用的是這裡的但是因為有成豬這個地方有另外一個成豬人而且不是原住民在這樣的情況之下有豬也有成豬按照我國產署的資料\n\n8\n00:03:10,386 --> 00:03:35,819\n因為是有另外成都人事實上就是我在使用啊原住民在使用啊但是因為被出租出去了就一直沒有辦法解決這方面的問題所以雖然這個林地另外的林地所有人證明說確實是他在使用一直他在使用符合增花邊保留地的條件\n\n9\n00:03:37,644 --> 00:04:01,361\n或者是有其他部落的頭目、其老去證明或村長證明但是還是因為你們的資料就是別人在懲處啊像這樣的有很多不少這樣的個案這個像這種的就是要去突破等到是不是可以再最起碼你租約也會期滿啊\n\n10\n00:04:03,393 --> 00:04:17,919\n阿朱耶琪馬或是或是變更企業阿或是變更企業阿因為阿實際沒有使用阿如果有確實證明不是他確實沒有實際使用阿這個部分是不是應該要把他解決阿部長\n\n11\n00:04:18,985 --> 00:04:36,172\n我跟委員照委員所敘述的我們在國有土地的出租基本上是出租給實際使用人那如果照委員剛敘述就是說這個成都人他成都的範圍是一整個地號但實際上是沒有用那麼多對不對然後旁邊是有原住民的\n\n12\n00:04:36,752 --> 00:05:04,020\n同胞在使用那這個部分就涉及到租約範圍的一個調整那要看實地的一個使用情形然後能夠確認這個部分原住民同胞使用這個部分不是我們這個陳租人實際在使用那就涉及到租約範圍的調整嗎對如果能夠確實證明跟實地的一些勘查的資料是好那這個部分我不知道實務上是有這樣的一個就是當您說實務上有很多案我們在處理上是不是發生了一些沒有處理的情況我們來主案處理這樣好不好\n\n13\n00:05:06,641 --> 00:05:12,369\n好讓那個部長齁這個陳年老案齁移持箱\n\n14\n00:05:13,956 --> 00:05:43,063\n然後現在這個區塊是我們邵族的鄉親台灣原住民族人口最少的邵族的鄉親邵族這個民族他們原來是在日月潭裡面是因為日濟時代要蓋這個日月潭把他們遷到這邊來遷到這邊來了之後並沒有給他土地所有錢沒有給他土地所有錢一直到\n\n15\n00:05:44,107 --> 00:06:12,490\n民國七十幾年吳敦義當南投縣長的時候那時候要四地重劃四地重劃他們都沒有辦法被分配為什麼沒有辦法被分配因為他們沒有土地所有錢沒有辦法被分配所以為了解決少主的鄉親我那時候在台灣省政府我們就給他增化編原住民保育地先增化編保育地再辦四地重劃\n\n16\n00:06:14,596 --> 00:06:39,433\n辦4D籌劃之後辦4D籌劃會我的土地本來在這邊會到另外一邊嘛4D籌劃嘛對不對然後這一筆土地上有一個房子在那邊有一個房子譬如說我的房子然後因為4D籌劃之後我跑到這邊但是房子還是我還在啊\n\n17\n00:06:40,885 --> 00:06:55,517\n以後分配到你那邊分配到你但是因為你知道都是同鄉啊都是自己人啊就會讓他繼續住像這樣的那因為是這樣的一個一個問題我開過很多次協調會所以部分這個部分這個\n\n18\n00:06:58,078 --> 00:07:02,143\n行政院中辦也開過協調會所以我們要很務實的很務實的這個去處理這個因為時間時間大有關係了這個這個我也去要請署長\n\n19\n00:07:14,206 --> 00:07:14,426\n拜訪財政委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n15773\t17613\t主席 各位委員 有請部長有請莊部長委員好部長好\n27033\t55807\t原住民族基本法政府第20條規定政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利土地的部分基本上都是國有土地國有土地裡面包含財政部所主管的還有農業部主管的當然還有經濟部主管的這些土地\n56909\t84170\t當然這個原住民族基本法還沒有公布施行之前在民國76年台灣省政府就因應實際上的一個需要而這個需要是當初因為相關的這些法制不完備導致原住民族很多的土地尤其是一直使用耕作的土地\n86004\t106927\t因為沒有登記所以全部被登記為國有才會開始有所謂的真化編原住民保留地這個部長過去在國產署也協助解決了很多那這段時間也切實救所有的\n108434\t134228\t這工廠管理機關來講在中央的工廠管理機關而言這個財政部國產署是最支持的但是還是有一些需要去突破的地方第一個就是說這個很多我們的土地我們鄉親在使用的土地一直都在使用但是因為沒有這個成豬\n137264\t154598\t我們有成豬然後會跟林地林地有成豬而成豬的人不是原住民或是有重疊或是那個高低落差有時候土地一個地號比如說這個我們就講這個這個地\n160919\t188838\t有高低落差但是地號是同一個這麼高的地方這個這麼矮的地方實際上使用他只有使用到下面的那我使用的是這裡的但是因為有成豬這個地方有另外一個成豬人而且不是原住民在這樣的情況之下有豬也有成豬按照我國產署的資料\n190386\t215819\t因為是有另外成都人事實上就是我在使用啊原住民在使用啊但是因為被出租出去了就一直沒有辦法解決這方面的問題所以雖然這個林地另外的林地所有人證明說確實是他在使用一直他在使用符合增花邊保留地的條件\n217644\t241361\t或者是有其他部落的頭目、其老去證明或村長證明但是還是因為你們的資料就是別人在懲處啊像這樣的有很多不少這樣的個案這個像這種的就是要去突破等到是不是可以再最起碼你租約也會期滿啊\n243393\t257919\t阿朱耶琪馬或是或是變更企業阿或是變更企業阿因為阿實際沒有使用阿如果有確實證明不是他確實沒有實際使用阿這個部分是不是應該要把他解決阿部長\n258985\t276172\t我跟委員照委員所敘述的我們在國有土地的出租基本上是出租給實際使用人那如果照委員剛敘述就是說這個成都人他成都的範圍是一整個地號但實際上是沒有用那麼多對不對然後旁邊是有原住民的\n276752\t304020\t同胞在使用那這個部分就涉及到租約範圍的一個調整那要看實地的一個使用情形然後能夠確認這個部分原住民同胞使用這個部分不是我們這個陳租人實際在使用那就涉及到租約範圍的調整嗎對如果能夠確實證明跟實地的一些勘查的資料是好那這個部分我不知道實務上是有這樣的一個就是當您說實務上有很多案我們在處理上是不是發生了一些沒有處理的情況我們來主案處理這樣好不好\n306641\t312369\t好讓那個部長齁這個陳年老案齁移持箱\n313956\t343063\t然後現在這個區塊是我們邵族的鄉親台灣原住民族人口最少的邵族的鄉親邵族這個民族他們原來是在日月潭裡面是因為日濟時代要蓋這個日月潭把他們遷到這邊來遷到這邊來了之後並沒有給他土地所有錢沒有給他土地所有錢一直到\n344107\t372490\t民國七十幾年吳敦義當南投縣長的時候那時候要四地重劃四地重劃他們都沒有辦法被分配為什麼沒有辦法被分配因為他們沒有土地所有錢沒有辦法被分配所以為了解決少主的鄉親我那時候在台灣省政府我們就給他增化編原住民保育地先增化編保育地再辦四地重劃\n374596\t399433\t辦4D籌劃之後辦4D籌劃會我的土地本來在這邊會到另外一邊嘛4D籌劃嘛對不對然後這一筆土地上有一個房子在那邊有一個房子譬如說我的房子然後因為4D籌劃之後我跑到這邊但是房子還是我還在啊\n400885\t415517\t以後分配到你那邊分配到你但是因為你知道都是同鄉啊都是自己人啊就會讓他繼續住像這樣的那因為是這樣的一個一個問題我開過很多次協調會所以部分這個部分這個\n418078\t422143\t行政院中辦也開過協調會所以我們要很務實的很務實的這個去處理這個因為時間時間大有關係了這個這個我也去要請署長\n434206\t434426\t拜訪財政委員\n","txt":"主席 各位委員 有請部長有請莊部長委員好部長好\n原住民族基本法政府第20條規定政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利土地的部分基本上都是國有土地國有土地裡面包含財政部所主管的還有農業部主管的當然還有經濟部主管的這些土地\n當然這個原住民族基本法還沒有公布施行之前在民國76年台灣省政府就因應實際上的一個需要而這個需要是當初因為相關的這些法制不完備導致原住民族很多的土地尤其是一直使用耕作的土地\n因為沒有登記所以全部被登記為國有才會開始有所謂的真化編原住民保留地這個部長過去在國產署也協助解決了很多那這段時間也切實救所有的\n這工廠管理機關來講在中央的工廠管理機關而言這個財政部國產署是最支持的但是還是有一些需要去突破的地方第一個就是說這個很多我們的土地我們鄉親在使用的土地一直都在使用但是因為沒有這個成豬\n我們有成豬然後會跟林地林地有成豬而成豬的人不是原住民或是有重疊或是那個高低落差有時候土地一個地號比如說這個我們就講這個這個地\n有高低落差但是地號是同一個這麼高的地方這個這麼矮的地方實際上使用他只有使用到下面的那我使用的是這裡的但是因為有成豬這個地方有另外一個成豬人而且不是原住民在這樣的情況之下有豬也有成豬按照我國產署的資料\n因為是有另外成都人事實上就是我在使用啊原住民在使用啊但是因為被出租出去了就一直沒有辦法解決這方面的問題所以雖然這個林地另外的林地所有人證明說確實是他在使用一直他在使用符合增花邊保留地的條件\n或者是有其他部落的頭目、其老去證明或村長證明但是還是因為你們的資料就是別人在懲處啊像這樣的有很多不少這樣的個案這個像這種的就是要去突破等到是不是可以再最起碼你租約也會期滿啊\n阿朱耶琪馬或是或是變更企業阿或是變更企業阿因為阿實際沒有使用阿如果有確實證明不是他確實沒有實際使用阿這個部分是不是應該要把他解決阿部長\n我跟委員照委員所敘述的我們在國有土地的出租基本上是出租給實際使用人那如果照委員剛敘述就是說這個成都人他成都的範圍是一整個地號但實際上是沒有用那麼多對不對然後旁邊是有原住民的\n同胞在使用那這個部分就涉及到租約範圍的一個調整那要看實地的一個使用情形然後能夠確認這個部分原住民同胞使用這個部分不是我們這個陳租人實際在使用那就涉及到租約範圍的調整嗎對如果能夠確實證明跟實地的一些勘查的資料是好那這個部分我不知道實務上是有這樣的一個就是當您說實務上有很多案我們在處理上是不是發生了一些沒有處理的情況我們來主案處理這樣好不好\n好讓那個部長齁這個陳年老案齁移持箱\n然後現在這個區塊是我們邵族的鄉親台灣原住民族人口最少的邵族的鄉親邵族這個民族他們原來是在日月潭裡面是因為日濟時代要蓋這個日月潭把他們遷到這邊來遷到這邊來了之後並沒有給他土地所有錢沒有給他土地所有錢一直到\n民國七十幾年吳敦義當南投縣長的時候那時候要四地重劃四地重劃他們都沒有辦法被分配為什麼沒有辦法被分配因為他們沒有土地所有錢沒有辦法被分配所以為了解決少主的鄉親我那時候在台灣省政府我們就給他增化編原住民保育地先增化編保育地再辦四地重劃\n辦4D籌劃之後辦4D籌劃會我的土地本來在這邊會到另外一邊嘛4D籌劃嘛對不對然後這一筆土地上有一個房子在那邊有一個房子譬如說我的房子然後因為4D籌劃之後我跑到這邊但是房子還是我還在啊\n以後分配到你那邊分配到你但是因為你知道都是同鄉啊都是自己人啊就會讓他繼續住像這樣的那因為是這樣的一個一個問題我開過很多次協調會所以部分這個部分這個\n行政院中辦也開過協調會所以我們要很務實的很務實的這個去處理這個因為時間時間大有關係了這個這個我也去要請署長\n拜訪財政委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:15.773 --> 00:17.613\n主席各位委員有請部長有請莊部長委員好部長好\n\n00:27.033 --> 00:55.807\n原住民族基本法政府第20條規定政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利土地的部分基本上都是國有土地國有土地裡面包含財政部所主管的還有農業部主管的當然還有經濟部主管的這些土地\n\n00:56.909 --> 01:24.170\n當然這個原住民族基本法還沒有公布施行之前在民國76年台灣省政府就因應實際上的一個需要而這個需要是當初因為相關的這些法制不完備導致原住民族很多的土地尤其是一直使用耕作的土地\n\n01:26.004 --> 01:46.927\n因為沒有登記所以全部被登記為國有才會開始有所謂的真化編原住民保留地這個部長過去在國產署也協助解決了很多那這段時間也切實救所有的\n\n01:48.434 --> 02:14.228\n這工廠管理機關來講在中央的工廠管理機關而言這個財政部國產署是最支持的但是還是有一些需要去突破的地方第一個就是說這個很多我們的土地我們鄉親在使用的土地一直都在使用但是因為沒有這個成豬\n\n02:17.264 --> 02:34.598\n我們有成豬然後會跟林地林地有成豬而成豬的人不是原住民或是有重疊或是那個高低落差有時候土地一個地號比如說這個我們就講這個這個地\n\n02:40.919 --> 03:08.838\n有高低落差但是地號是同一個這麼高的地方這個這麼矮的地方實際上使用他只有使用到下面的那我使用的是這裡的但是因為有成豬這個地方有另外一個成豬人而且不是原住民在這樣的情況之下有豬也有成豬按照我國產署的資料\n\n03:10.386 --> 03:35.819\n因為是有另外成都人事實上就是我在使用啊原住民在使用啊但是因為被出租出去了就一直沒有辦法解決這方面的問題所以雖然這個林地另外的林地所有人證明說確實是他在使用一直他在使用符合增花邊保留地的條件\n\n03:37.644 --> 04:01.361\n或者是有其他部落的頭目、其老去證明或村長證明但是還是因為你們的資料就是別人在懲處啊像這樣的有很多不少這樣的個案這個像這種的就是要去突破等到是不是可以再最起碼你租約也會期滿啊\n\n04:03.393 --> 04:17.919\n阿朱耶琪馬或是或是變更企業阿或是變更企業阿因為阿實際沒有使用阿如果有確實證明不是他確實沒有實際使用阿這個部分是不是應該要把他解決阿部長\n\n04:18.985 --> 04:36.172\n我跟委員照委員所敘述的我們在國有土地的出租基本上是出租給實際使用人那如果照委員剛敘述就是說這個成都人他成都的範圍是一整個地號但實際上是沒有用那麼多對不對然後旁邊是有原住民的\n\n04:36.752 --> 05:04.020\n同胞在使用那這個部分就涉及到租約範圍的一個調整那要看實地的一個使用情形然後能夠確認這個部分原住民同胞使用這個部分不是我們這個陳租人實際在使用那就涉及到租約範圍的調整嗎對如果能夠確實證明跟實地的一些勘查的資料是好那這個部分我不知道實務上是有這樣的一個就是當您說實務上有很多案我們在處理上是不是發生了一些沒有處理的情況我們來主案處理這樣好不好\n\n05:06.641 --> 05:12.369\n好讓那個部長齁這個陳年老案齁移持箱\n\n05:13.956 --> 05:43.063\n然後現在這個區塊是我們邵族的鄉親台灣原住民族人口最少的邵族的鄉親邵族這個民族他們原來是在日月潭裡面是因為日濟時代要蓋這個日月潭把他們遷到這邊來遷到這邊來了之後並沒有給他土地所有錢沒有給他土地所有錢一直到\n\n05:44.107 --> 06:12.490\n民國七十幾年吳敦義當南投縣長的時候那時候要四地重劃四地重劃他們都沒有辦法被分配為什麼沒有辦法被分配因為他們沒有土地所有錢沒有辦法被分配所以為了解決少主的鄉親我那時候在台灣省政府我們就給他增化編原住民保育地先增化編保育地再辦四地重劃\n\n06:14.596 --> 06:39.433\n辦4D籌劃之後辦4D籌劃會我的土地本來在這邊會到另外一邊嘛4D籌劃嘛對不對然後這一筆土地上有一個房子在那邊有一個房子譬如說我的房子然後因為4D籌劃之後我跑到這邊但是房子還是我還在啊\n\n06:40.885 --> 06:55.517\n以後分配到你那邊分配到你但是因為你知道都是同鄉啊都是自己人啊就會讓他繼續住像這樣的那因為是這樣的一個一個問題我開過很多次協調會所以部分這個部分這個\n\n06:58.078 --> 07:02.143\n行政院中辦也開過協調會所以我們要很務實的很務實的這個去處理這個因為時間時間大有關係了這個這個我也去要請署長\n\n07:14.206 --> 07:14.426\n拜訪財政委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":15.773,"end":17.613,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長有請莊部長委員好部長好"},{"start":27.033,"end":55.807,"text":"原住民族基本法政府第20條規定政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利土地的部分基本上都是國有土地國有土地裡面包含財政部所主管的還有農業部主管的當然還有經濟部主管的這些土地"},{"start":56.909,"end":84.17,"text":"當然這個原住民族基本法還沒有公布施行之前在民國76年台灣省政府就因應實際上的一個需要而這個需要是當初因為相關的這些法制不完備導致原住民族很多的土地尤其是一直使用耕作的土地"},{"start":86.004,"end":106.927,"text":"因為沒有登記所以全部被登記為國有才會開始有所謂的真化編原住民保留地這個部長過去在國產署也協助解決了很多那這段時間也切實救所有的"},{"start":108.434,"end":134.228,"text":"這工廠管理機關來講在中央的工廠管理機關而言這個財政部國產署是最支持的但是還是有一些需要去突破的地方第一個就是說這個很多我們的土地我們鄉親在使用的土地一直都在使用但是因為沒有這個成豬"},{"start":137.264,"end":154.598,"text":"我們有成豬然後會跟林地林地有成豬而成豬的人不是原住民或是有重疊或是那個高低落差有時候土地一個地號比如說這個我們就講這個這個地"},{"start":160.919,"end":188.838,"text":"有高低落差但是地號是同一個這麼高的地方這個這麼矮的地方實際上使用他只有使用到下面的那我使用的是這裡的但是因為有成豬這個地方有另外一個成豬人而且不是原住民在這樣的情況之下有豬也有成豬按照我國產署的資料"},{"start":190.386,"end":215.819,"text":"因為是有另外成都人事實上就是我在使用啊原住民在使用啊但是因為被出租出去了就一直沒有辦法解決這方面的問題所以雖然這個林地另外的林地所有人證明說確實是他在使用一直他在使用符合增花邊保留地的條件"},{"start":217.644,"end":241.361,"text":"或者是有其他部落的頭目、其老去證明或村長證明但是還是因為你們的資料就是別人在懲處啊像這樣的有很多不少這樣的個案這個像這種的就是要去突破等到是不是可以再最起碼你租約也會期滿啊"},{"start":243.393,"end":257.919,"text":"阿朱耶琪馬或是或是變更企業阿或是變更企業阿因為阿實際沒有使用阿如果有確實證明不是他確實沒有實際使用阿這個部分是不是應該要把他解決阿部長"},{"start":258.985,"end":276.172,"text":"我跟委員照委員所敘述的我們在國有土地的出租基本上是出租給實際使用人那如果照委員剛敘述就是說這個成都人他成都的範圍是一整個地號但實際上是沒有用那麼多對不對然後旁邊是有原住民的"},{"start":276.752,"end":304.02,"text":"同胞在使用那這個部分就涉及到租約範圍的一個調整那要看實地的一個使用情形然後能夠確認這個部分原住民同胞使用這個部分不是我們這個陳租人實際在使用那就涉及到租約範圍的調整嗎對如果能夠確實證明跟實地的一些勘查的資料是好那這個部分我不知道實務上是有這樣的一個就是當您說實務上有很多案我們在處理上是不是發生了一些沒有處理的情況我們來主案處理這樣好不好"},{"start":306.641,"end":312.369,"text":"好讓那個部長齁這個陳年老案齁移持箱"},{"start":313.956,"end":343.063,"text":"然後現在這個區塊是我們邵族的鄉親台灣原住民族人口最少的邵族的鄉親邵族這個民族他們原來是在日月潭裡面是因為日濟時代要蓋這個日月潭把他們遷到這邊來遷到這邊來了之後並沒有給他土地所有錢沒有給他土地所有錢一直到"},{"start":344.107,"end":372.49,"text":"民國七十幾年吳敦義當南投縣長的時候那時候要四地重劃四地重劃他們都沒有辦法被分配為什麼沒有辦法被分配因為他們沒有土地所有錢沒有辦法被分配所以為了解決少主的鄉親我那時候在台灣省政府我們就給他增化編原住民保育地先增化編保育地再辦四地重劃"},{"start":374.596,"end":399.433,"text":"辦4D籌劃之後辦4D籌劃會我的土地本來在這邊會到另外一邊嘛4D籌劃嘛對不對然後這一筆土地上有一個房子在那邊有一個房子譬如說我的房子然後因為4D籌劃之後我跑到這邊但是房子還是我還在啊"},{"start":400.885,"end":415.517,"text":"以後分配到你那邊分配到你但是因為你知道都是同鄉啊都是自己人啊就會讓他繼續住像這樣的那因為是這樣的一個一個問題我開過很多次協調會所以部分這個部分這個"},{"start":418.078,"end":422.143,"text":"行政院中辦也開過協調會所以我們要很務實的很務實的這個去處理這個因為時間時間大有關係了這個這個我也去要請署長"},{"start":434.206,"end":434.426,"text":"拜訪財政委員"}]}}}}