{"id":150171,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150171","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f19274d2c8b8b5c28c052c38239db8676b4ff8ba9b0039caa7a6426e120690778beb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"12:20:10 - 12:28:50","影片長度":"00:08:40","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部、教育部就「落實職場性別平等及性平三法上路如何落實雇主責任」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、教育部就「完善職場育兒環境及托育人員專業職能、工作倫理及職業道德之培訓策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【3月20日及21日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-7"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":520,"end_time":"2024-03-20T12:28:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T12:20:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1143,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（12時20分）請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，去年11月我質詢陳院長時，部長也在，我們討論了關於照顧不離職的議題，後來院長其實也把這個議題交給部長研議。部長，你知不知道我為什麼一定要在行政院長在的時候跟他提出這個問題？你知不知道為什麼？"],["許部長銘春：希望院這邊能支持，並且推動。"],["洪委員申翰：因為我也同意照顧不離職這個問題其實不單單是勞動部自己的政策，照顧不離職的問題當然也涉及企業相關制度上、工時安排等問題，可能有跨部會的部分。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員申翰：尤其當時我提出這項質詢，是因為臺灣其實有33萬名女性為了照顧家人必須退職、甚至離開職場，所以當初不管是陳院長或部長都承認我們的制度和職場其實對需要照顧家人的勞工很不友善，讓他們為了照顧家人不得不離職、甚至離職以後就回不來了，這就是這33萬女性勞動力消失很重要的原因，我們甚至也進行了國際上的比較。部長，你當時答應我1個月內會盤點問題，去了解目前制度漏接了誰，並且針對這些盤點提出方案給行政院，希望行政院可以支持。4個月過去了，請問勞動部有盤點問題嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有，報告委員……"],["洪委員申翰：勞動部有盤點問題嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["洪委員申翰：有去了解制度到底漏接了誰嗎？有把政策建議給行政院嗎？部長，有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我看這裡的資料是有給委員。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我看到了，我看到那份文件了。但如果你仔細看那份文件，就會很清楚地看到，在這份文件上沒有盤點問題，只是回復衛福部為了因應超高齡社會，已經提供長照服務了，所以家庭照顧者已經可以放心投入勞動職場了，勞工自己也可以選擇彈性工時和日托、日照服務，不須因照顧離職影響其家庭收入。這是這份報告上的內容，部長，你同意嗎？我是請你們去盤點問題，結果你們回了一份文跟我說現在沒有問題！部長，你同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個回復不是很……"],["洪委員申翰：當初，我是請你們盤點問題給行政院，如果行政院不了解問題的話，你們告訴行政院問題在哪裡，再提供你們的政策建議是什麼，希望能夠獲得行政院或經建部門的支持，結果你回我們的這個是什麼東西？"],["許部長銘春：跟委員報告，我再請業務單位……"],["洪委員申翰：你告訴我都沒有問題，既然沒有問題，那就不用改啊！如果這麼好就不用改啊！部長，這是我要跟你講的第一件事情。","再來，我要跟你說，最近勞動部推出的試辦彈性育嬰假預計5月實施。許部長，你大概知道我其實是可以接受先求有、再求好的人，可是我必須說，現在這個計畫真的沒有辦法解決勞工就業不離職的問題，甚至可能衍生更多問題。部長，你知不知道？"],["許部長銘春：我們是希望……"],["洪委員申翰：為什麼我這樣說？我跟部長說。第一，為什麼需要雇主提交試辦計畫書啊？為什麼要雇主提交試辦計畫書？為什麼？"],["許部長銘春：我們希望雇主如果來呼應這項計畫，就看看他能作到什麼程度，因為還是需要雇主……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，在現在這個計畫裡，我們看到的狀況是：第一，對於企業、對於雇主毫無誘因，你們完全沒有放任何誘因在這項計畫裡面。除了第一是沒有誘因，第二，雇主還要自己再提計畫書，假設雇主忙於他的生意、忙於他的企業，還要自己再提計畫書，而且毫無誘因，他在這裡面完全沒有任何好處，那他為什麼要提這件事？所以你反而製造了他想去做這件事情的門檻跟成本，而且沒有給任何誘因，所以最有可能的結果是什麼？許部長我覺得最有可能的結果就是因為沒有誘因，導致很少的企業、很少的雇主願意來填寫這個計畫書，最後你們就回報給委員、回報給立法院說「你看，都沒有企業有彈性育嬰假的需求」，我覺得這是最後很可能的狀況。這也是為什麼我要跟你說的，坦白說就我看起來，我認為這個彈性育嬰假制度很有問題，我們是當初最倡議「照顧不離職」定彈性育嬰假制度的委員之一，但目前的這個方案，第一個，它很可能運作不起來，為什麼沒有設計鼓勵誘因？我們沒有在這裡面看到，到時候運作不起來，到底是真正因為雇主跟勞工沒有這個需求？還是因為我們的制度設計不良？部長可以回答一下嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我想我們這個試辦計畫主要是要了解到時候企業在運作上有沒有什麼困難，當然你剛剛有講說可能會造成負擔或者造成一個障礙，這個部分我是覺得我們可以再跟他們做溝通。"],["洪委員申翰：至少你會要求企業配合，希望企業一起來跟進這個政策跟這個理念，我覺得這很好，但為什麼這裡面毫無鼓勵跟誘因的機制？"],["許部長銘春：對這個部分，我們會再看看誘因部分要怎麼來設計，但是我要跟委員講，其實我們有先跟這些相關的團體說明過也有溝通過，也希望他們能夠來……"],["洪委員申翰：部長！我現在說的是當初在倡議的這些團體對於現在這個方案是很不滿意的，是覺得問題很多的，是覺得很可能在這個試辦計畫裡面會運作不起來的，甚至最後會被以「沒有需求」來一筆帶過的。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，您講的是倡議團體，我現在講的是企業團體，我的意思是說，包括我們自己公部門，我也請他們來幫忙參與這個計畫，包括這些工商團體，我們也請幾個比較重要的工商團體他們來參與。"],["洪委員申翰：我跟你說，其實對這些團體來說，你弄一個這樣的計畫，他就說「反正我不去申請就不干我的事嘛！」，你說要提一個計畫書，他就說好，但是他就不來申請啊！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，有些雇主已經在詢問啦！"],["洪委員申翰：是，但我現在說的是目前這個試辦計畫的設計，在誘因的機制上面或相關門檻上面，我覺得真的很多部分並不恰當，是不是請部長能夠再重新檢討一下這樣子的內容？不然我很擔心這反而不符合理念。"],["許部長銘春：我覺得是這樣，因為這是一個試辦計畫，如果真的有問題，我們隨時都可以檢討。"],["洪委員申翰：當然，難道因為是試辦計畫就能精進而不精進嗎？如果試辦計畫有空間可以精進，我們明明看到有空間可以精進但卻不精進嗎？難道只是因為它是一個試辦計畫就可以隨隨便便嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我的意思是說就是因為這是試辦計畫，所以有問題我們馬上可以來改進，包括剛剛委員提到的誘因或者說這個是不是會造成障礙。"],["洪委員申翰：部長！目前是說5月才要開始，距離現在還有兩個月的時間，其實你就可以把這個試辦計畫規劃得再完整一點再上路，到時候試辦計畫反映的才會是整體社會有沒有需求的正確資訊，而不會可能因為我們規劃設計機制的不恰當或不周全，反而造成你們想要了解資訊上面的困難跟阻礙，我的問題是這個，所以我們希望在試辦計畫正式上路前，即便它是試辦計畫都應該再調整一次，再重新規劃一下其內容，我們讓它好好的規劃好再上路，好不好？謝謝！"],["主席：因為時間的關係，謝謝洪委員，也請部長再跟委員持續溝通。","接下來我們請牛煦庭委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-7","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","范雲","李坤城","洪孟楷","李彥秀","吳沛憶","洪申翰","牛煦庭","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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\"委\", \"start\": 517.155, \"end\": 517.455, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 517.455, \"end\": 517.575, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"溝\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 517.575, \"end\": 517.695, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 517.695, \"end\": 517.715, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 517.715, \"end\": 517.816, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 517.816, \"end\": 517.836, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,735 --> 00:00:36,004\n請許部長好請許部長侯委員好部長去年在11月的時候我質詢陳院長有向陳院長和部長也有在我們有討論這個關於照顧不離職的議題那後來部長其實也把這個議題交給部長來研議部長知不知道為什麼一定要在有行政院的院長在的時候要跟他提出這個問題知不知道為什麼\n\n2\n00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:56,488\n因為我也同意照顧不離職這個問題其實不是單單勞動部自己的政策照顧不離職這個問題當然也涉及到一些企業相關制度上面工時安排的等等的問題\n\n3\n00:00:57,549 --> 00:01:21,997\n這可能會有跨部會的部分但部長這個尤其是當初我們提出這個質詢的時候是因為很清楚台灣有33萬名的女性其實為了照顧家人而必須退職甚至是離開職場所以當初其實不管是成員長或部長其實都承認我們的制度跟職場其實對需要照顧家人的勞工很不友善所以讓人要照顧他為了要照顧家人他不得不\n\n4\n00:01:23,598 --> 00:01:32,867\n離職甚至離職以後就回不來了這就是這33萬女性勞動力消失的很重要的原因甚至我們進行了國際的比較但部長\n\n5\n00:01:34,266 --> 00:01:52,757\n你那時候答應我說一個月內會盤點問題去瞭解目前制度漏接了誰然後並且針對這些盤點來提出一個方案給行政院希望行政院可以支持可是部長四個月過去了請問勞動部有去盤點問題嗎?部長有有報告委勞動部有去盤點問題嗎?有\n\n6\n00:02:03,055 --> 00:02:30,815\n有去了解制度到底漏接了誰嗎?有把政策建議給行政院嗎?部長有嗎?就是有我看這個有給委員部長我看到了我看到那份文件了但如果你仔細看那份文件你就很清楚的看到在這份文件上面沒有盤點問題只是在回覆說因為衛福部為了因應超高齡社會所以已經提供了長照服務了\n\n7\n00:02:31,415 --> 00:02:51,198\n家庭照顧者所以已經可以放心投入勞動職場了勞工自己也可以選擇彈性工時和日托日照服務了不需因照顧離職影響家庭收入這是這一份報告上面的內容部長你同意嗎我是請你們去盤點問題結果你回了衣服跟我說現在沒有問題部長你同意嗎\n\n8\n00:02:55,619 --> 00:03:08,299\n當初我是請你們盤點問題給行政院如果行政院不了解問題的話你們告訴行政院問題在哪裡在提供你們的政策建議是什麼希望能夠獲得行政院或者是我們經建部門的支持\n\n9\n00:03:11,153 --> 00:03:28,227\n你告訴我都沒有問題,沒有問題那就不用改啊!如果這麼好就不用改啊!部長這是我要跟你講的第一件事情再來我要跟你說最近勞動部推出的事半談刑預計五月實施\n\n10\n00:03:30,789 --> 00:03:45,312\n許部長你應該知道我其實是可以接受先求有再求好的人可是我必須說現在的這個計劃真的沒有辦法解決勞工就業不離職的問題甚至有可能衍生更多的問題部長知不知道為什麼我這樣說我跟部長說第一個為什麼需要僱主提交事辦計劃書啊為什麼要僱主提交事辦計劃書為什麼\n\n11\n00:04:02,421 --> 00:04:18,120\n我們是希望說他如果來呼應這個計畫看他能做到什麼程度啦因為這個還是要雇主部長現在在這個計畫裡面我們看到的狀況是第一個對於企業對於雇主毫無誘因你們完全沒有放任何的誘因在這個計畫裡面\n\n12\n00:04:20,489 --> 00:04:39,785\n第一個沒有誘因第二個僱主還要自己再提一個計劃書今天假設他忙於他的生意他忙於他的企業他還要自己再提一個計劃書而且毫無誘因他完全沒有任何好處在這裡面他為什麼要去提這件事情所以你反而製造了他想去做這件事情的門檻跟成本而且你沒有給任何誘因所以最有可能的結果是什麼\n\n13\n00:04:46,717 --> 00:05:01,747\n我覺得最後可能的結果就是很少的企業很少的雇主願意來填寫這個計劃書因為他沒有誘因最後你們就回報給委員回報給立法院說你看都沒有企業有彈性誘因價的需求我覺得這最後很可能的狀況是這樣啊\n\n14\n00:05:07,045 --> 00:05:28,912\n所以這是為什麼我要跟你說這一個彈性育嫁制度坦白說就我看起來我認為很有問題我們是當初最倡議照顧不離職彈性育嫁制度的委員之一但目前的這個方案第一個他很可能運作不起來為什麼沒有設計鼓勵誘因沒有我們沒有看到在裡面看到\n\n15\n00:05:30,529 --> 00:05:59,530\n所以如果到時候運作不起來的時候到底是因為真正的雇主跟勞工沒有這個需求還是因為我們制度設計不良?部長,可以回答一下嗎?包委員,因為我想我們這個事辦計畫主要是要了解看企業到時候在運作上有沒有什麼困難那當然你剛剛有講的說可能會造成負擔或者就造成一個障礙這個部分我是覺得我們可以在\n\n16\n00:06:01,090 --> 00:06:28,563\n至少你要求企業配合至少你希望企業一起來跟進這個政策跟這個理念我覺得這很好但為什麼這裡面毫無鼓勵跟誘因的機制這個部分其實我們會來再看看誘因部分來怎麼來設計但是我要跟委員講我們有先跟這些相關的團體其實我們跟他們有說明過也有溝通過也希望他們能夠我現在說到就是這些當初在倡議這些團體目前對於現在這個方案\n\n17\n00:06:29,103 --> 00:06:55,918\n是很不滿意的是覺得問題很多的是覺得這很可能在這個事辦計畫裡面會運作不起來甚至最後就被以說那就沒有需求來一筆帶過的報告委員您講的是參與團體我現在講的是企業團體我的意思是說因為我有對象包括我們自己公部門我也請他們來幫忙參與這個計畫然後譬如說包括這些工商團體我們也幾個比較重要工商團體也請他們來\n\n18\n00:06:57,639 --> 00:07:25,319\n部長但我跟你說其實對這些團體來說你弄一個這樣的他就說好那反正我就不去申請就不干我的事嘛你說你要提一個計畫書那他就好啊你就提但是他就不來申請報告委員有部主已經在詢問啦是但是我現在說的事情是說這個目前事辦計畫的設計在誘因的機制上面或相關門檻上面我覺得真的很多部分並不恰當是不是請部長能夠再重新檢討一下這樣子的內容\n\n19\n00:07:27,677 --> 00:07:54,789\n不然我很擔心這反而不符合理念。我是覺得這樣因為這是一個示範計畫如果真的有問題我們隨時都可以檢討當然難道示範計畫能夠精進就不精進嗎?對啊所以我的意思是說如果示範計畫有空間可以精進明明我們看到有空間可以精進但卻不精進嗎?難道只是因為它是一個示範計畫我就可以隨隨便便嗎?我的意思是說就是因為示範計畫所以有問題我們馬上可以來做包括你剛剛委員在提說\n\n20\n00:07:56,249 --> 00:08:12,516\n這個這個誘因啊或者說這個是不是現在5月才要開始現在還有兩個月的時間其實你就可以把這示範計畫弄得再完整規劃的再完整一點再讓他上路到時候示範計畫反映的才會是整體社會有沒有需求正確的資訊而不會因為現在可能我們在計劃規劃設計機制的不恰當或不周全\n\n21\n00:08:18,758 --> 00:08:37,836\n反而造成你們想要去了解資訊上面的困難跟阻礙。」我的問題是這個事情,所以我們希望在事辦計畫再正式上路,即便它是事辦計畫,都應該再調整一次,再重新規劃一下它的內容,我們讓它好好的規劃好,再讓它上路好不好?好,謝謝,洪委員,也請部長再跟委員持續溝通,因為我們時間有關係。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7735\t36004\t請許部長好請許部長侯委員好部長去年在11月的時候我質詢陳院長有向陳院長和部長也有在我們有討論這個關於照顧不離職的議題那後來部長其實也把這個議題交給部長來研議部長知不知道為什麼一定要在有行政院的院長在的時候要跟他提出這個問題知不知道為什麼\n42840\t56488\t因為我也同意照顧不離職這個問題其實不是單單勞動部自己的政策照顧不離職這個問題當然也涉及到一些企業相關制度上面工時安排的等等的問題\n57549\t81997\t這可能會有跨部會的部分但部長這個尤其是當初我們提出這個質詢的時候是因為很清楚台灣有33萬名的女性其實為了照顧家人而必須退職甚至是離開職場所以當初其實不管是成員長或部長其實都承認我們的制度跟職場其實對需要照顧家人的勞工很不友善所以讓人要照顧他為了要照顧家人他不得不\n83598\t92867\t離職甚至離職以後就回不來了這就是這33萬女性勞動力消失的很重要的原因甚至我們進行了國際的比較但部長\n94266\t112757\t你那時候答應我說一個月內會盤點問題去瞭解目前制度漏接了誰然後並且針對這些盤點來提出一個方案給行政院希望行政院可以支持可是部長四個月過去了請問勞動部有去盤點問題嗎?部長有有報告委勞動部有去盤點問題嗎?有\n123055\t150815\t有去了解制度到底漏接了誰嗎?有把政策建議給行政院嗎?部長有嗎?就是有我看這個有給委員部長我看到了我看到那份文件了但如果你仔細看那份文件你就很清楚的看到在這份文件上面沒有盤點問題只是在回覆說因為衛福部為了因應超高齡社會所以已經提供了長照服務了\n151415\t171198\t家庭照顧者所以已經可以放心投入勞動職場了勞工自己也可以選擇彈性工時和日托日照服務了不需因照顧離職影響家庭收入這是這一份報告上面的內容部長你同意嗎我是請你們去盤點問題結果你回了衣服跟我說現在沒有問題部長你同意嗎\n175619\t188299\t當初我是請你們盤點問題給行政院如果行政院不了解問題的話你們告訴行政院問題在哪裡在提供你們的政策建議是什麼希望能夠獲得行政院或者是我們經建部門的支持\n191153\t208227\t你告訴我都沒有問題,沒有問題那就不用改啊!如果這麼好就不用改啊!部長這是我要跟你講的第一件事情再來我要跟你說最近勞動部推出的事半談刑預計五月實施\n210789\t225312\t許部長你應該知道我其實是可以接受先求有再求好的人可是我必須說現在的這個計劃真的沒有辦法解決勞工就業不離職的問題甚至有可能衍生更多的問題部長知不知道為什麼我這樣說我跟部長說第一個為什麼需要僱主提交事辦計劃書啊為什麼要僱主提交事辦計劃書為什麼\n242421\t258120\t我們是希望說他如果來呼應這個計畫看他能做到什麼程度啦因為這個還是要雇主部長現在在這個計畫裡面我們看到的狀況是第一個對於企業對於雇主毫無誘因你們完全沒有放任何的誘因在這個計畫裡面\n260489\t279785\t第一個沒有誘因第二個僱主還要自己再提一個計劃書今天假設他忙於他的生意他忙於他的企業他還要自己再提一個計劃書而且毫無誘因他完全沒有任何好處在這裡面他為什麼要去提這件事情所以你反而製造了他想去做這件事情的門檻跟成本而且你沒有給任何誘因所以最有可能的結果是什麼\n286717\t301747\t我覺得最後可能的結果就是很少的企業很少的雇主願意來填寫這個計劃書因為他沒有誘因最後你們就回報給委員回報給立法院說你看都沒有企業有彈性誘因價的需求我覺得這最後很可能的狀況是這樣啊\n307045\t328912\t所以這是為什麼我要跟你說這一個彈性育嫁制度坦白說就我看起來我認為很有問題我們是當初最倡議照顧不離職彈性育嫁制度的委員之一但目前的這個方案第一個他很可能運作不起來為什麼沒有設計鼓勵誘因沒有我們沒有看到在裡面看到\n330529\t359530\t所以如果到時候運作不起來的時候到底是因為真正的雇主跟勞工沒有這個需求還是因為我們制度設計不良?部長,可以回答一下嗎?包委員,因為我想我們這個事辦計畫主要是要了解看企業到時候在運作上有沒有什麼困難那當然你剛剛有講的說可能會造成負擔或者就造成一個障礙這個部分我是覺得我們可以在\n361090\t388563\t至少你要求企業配合至少你希望企業一起來跟進這個政策跟這個理念我覺得這很好但為什麼這裡面毫無鼓勵跟誘因的機制這個部分其實我們會來再看看誘因部分來怎麼來設計但是我要跟委員講我們有先跟這些相關的團體其實我們跟他們有說明過也有溝通過也希望他們能夠我現在說到就是這些當初在倡議這些團體目前對於現在這個方案\n389103\t415918\t是很不滿意的是覺得問題很多的是覺得這很可能在這個事辦計畫裡面會運作不起來甚至最後就被以說那就沒有需求來一筆帶過的報告委員您講的是參與團體我現在講的是企業團體我的意思是說因為我有對象包括我們自己公部門我也請他們來幫忙參與這個計畫然後譬如說包括這些工商團體我們也幾個比較重要工商團體也請他們來\n417639\t445319\t部長但我跟你說其實對這些團體來說你弄一個這樣的他就說好那反正我就不去申請就不干我的事嘛你說你要提一個計畫書那他就好啊你就提但是他就不來申請報告委員有部主已經在詢問啦是但是我現在說的事情是說這個目前事辦計畫的設計在誘因的機制上面或相關門檻上面我覺得真的很多部分並不恰當是不是請部長能夠再重新檢討一下這樣子的內容\n447677\t474789\t不然我很擔心這反而不符合理念。我是覺得這樣因為這是一個示範計畫如果真的有問題我們隨時都可以檢討當然難道示範計畫能夠精進就不精進嗎?對啊所以我的意思是說如果示範計畫有空間可以精進明明我們看到有空間可以精進但卻不精進嗎?難道只是因為它是一個示範計畫我就可以隨隨便便嗎?我的意思是說就是因為示範計畫所以有問題我們馬上可以來做包括你剛剛委員在提說\n476249\t492516\t這個這個誘因啊或者說這個是不是現在5月才要開始現在還有兩個月的時間其實你就可以把這示範計畫弄得再完整規劃的再完整一點再讓他上路到時候示範計畫反映的才會是整體社會有沒有需求正確的資訊而不會因為現在可能我們在計劃規劃設計機制的不恰當或不周全\n498758\t517836\t反而造成你們想要去了解資訊上面的困難跟阻礙。」我的問題是這個事情,所以我們希望在事辦計畫再正式上路,即便它是事辦計畫,都應該再調整一次,再重新規劃一下它的內容,我們讓它好好的規劃好,再讓它上路好不好?好,謝謝,洪委員,也請部長再跟委員持續溝通,因為我們時間有關係。\n","txt":"請許部長好請許部長侯委員好部長去年在11月的時候我質詢陳院長有向陳院長和部長也有在我們有討論這個關於照顧不離職的議題那後來部長其實也把這個議題交給部長來研議部長知不知道為什麼一定要在有行政院的院長在的時候要跟他提出這個問題知不知道為什麼\n因為我也同意照顧不離職這個問題其實不是單單勞動部自己的政策照顧不離職這個問題當然也涉及到一些企業相關制度上面工時安排的等等的問題\n這可能會有跨部會的部分但部長這個尤其是當初我們提出這個質詢的時候是因為很清楚台灣有33萬名的女性其實為了照顧家人而必須退職甚至是離開職場所以當初其實不管是成員長或部長其實都承認我們的制度跟職場其實對需要照顧家人的勞工很不友善所以讓人要照顧他為了要照顧家人他不得不\n離職甚至離職以後就回不來了這就是這33萬女性勞動力消失的很重要的原因甚至我們進行了國際的比較但部長\n你那時候答應我說一個月內會盤點問題去瞭解目前制度漏接了誰然後並且針對這些盤點來提出一個方案給行政院希望行政院可以支持可是部長四個月過去了請問勞動部有去盤點問題嗎?部長有有報告委勞動部有去盤點問題嗎?有\n有去了解制度到底漏接了誰嗎?有把政策建議給行政院嗎?部長有嗎?就是有我看這個有給委員部長我看到了我看到那份文件了但如果你仔細看那份文件你就很清楚的看到在這份文件上面沒有盤點問題只是在回覆說因為衛福部為了因應超高齡社會所以已經提供了長照服務了\n家庭照顧者所以已經可以放心投入勞動職場了勞工自己也可以選擇彈性工時和日托日照服務了不需因照顧離職影響家庭收入這是這一份報告上面的內容部長你同意嗎我是請你們去盤點問題結果你回了衣服跟我說現在沒有問題部長你同意嗎\n當初我是請你們盤點問題給行政院如果行政院不了解問題的話你們告訴行政院問題在哪裡在提供你們的政策建議是什麼希望能夠獲得行政院或者是我們經建部門的支持\n你告訴我都沒有問題,沒有問題那就不用改啊!如果這麼好就不用改啊!部長這是我要跟你講的第一件事情再來我要跟你說最近勞動部推出的事半談刑預計五月實施\n許部長你應該知道我其實是可以接受先求有再求好的人可是我必須說現在的這個計劃真的沒有辦法解決勞工就業不離職的問題甚至有可能衍生更多的問題部長知不知道為什麼我這樣說我跟部長說第一個為什麼需要僱主提交事辦計劃書啊為什麼要僱主提交事辦計劃書為什麼\n我們是希望說他如果來呼應這個計畫看他能做到什麼程度啦因為這個還是要雇主部長現在在這個計畫裡面我們看到的狀況是第一個對於企業對於雇主毫無誘因你們完全沒有放任何的誘因在這個計畫裡面\n第一個沒有誘因第二個僱主還要自己再提一個計劃書今天假設他忙於他的生意他忙於他的企業他還要自己再提一個計劃書而且毫無誘因他完全沒有任何好處在這裡面他為什麼要去提這件事情所以你反而製造了他想去做這件事情的門檻跟成本而且你沒有給任何誘因所以最有可能的結果是什麼\n我覺得最後可能的結果就是很少的企業很少的雇主願意來填寫這個計劃書因為他沒有誘因最後你們就回報給委員回報給立法院說你看都沒有企業有彈性誘因價的需求我覺得這最後很可能的狀況是這樣啊\n所以這是為什麼我要跟你說這一個彈性育嫁制度坦白說就我看起來我認為很有問題我們是當初最倡議照顧不離職彈性育嫁制度的委員之一但目前的這個方案第一個他很可能運作不起來為什麼沒有設計鼓勵誘因沒有我們沒有看到在裡面看到\n所以如果到時候運作不起來的時候到底是因為真正的雇主跟勞工沒有這個需求還是因為我們制度設計不良?部長,可以回答一下嗎?包委員,因為我想我們這個事辦計畫主要是要了解看企業到時候在運作上有沒有什麼困難那當然你剛剛有講的說可能會造成負擔或者就造成一個障礙這個部分我是覺得我們可以在\n至少你要求企業配合至少你希望企業一起來跟進這個政策跟這個理念我覺得這很好但為什麼這裡面毫無鼓勵跟誘因的機制這個部分其實我們會來再看看誘因部分來怎麼來設計但是我要跟委員講我們有先跟這些相關的團體其實我們跟他們有說明過也有溝通過也希望他們能夠我現在說到就是這些當初在倡議這些團體目前對於現在這個方案\n是很不滿意的是覺得問題很多的是覺得這很可能在這個事辦計畫裡面會運作不起來甚至最後就被以說那就沒有需求來一筆帶過的報告委員您講的是參與團體我現在講的是企業團體我的意思是說因為我有對象包括我們自己公部門我也請他們來幫忙參與這個計畫然後譬如說包括這些工商團體我們也幾個比較重要工商團體也請他們來\n部長但我跟你說其實對這些團體來說你弄一個這樣的他就說好那反正我就不去申請就不干我的事嘛你說你要提一個計畫書那他就好啊你就提但是他就不來申請報告委員有部主已經在詢問啦是但是我現在說的事情是說這個目前事辦計畫的設計在誘因的機制上面或相關門檻上面我覺得真的很多部分並不恰當是不是請部長能夠再重新檢討一下這樣子的內容\n不然我很擔心這反而不符合理念。我是覺得這樣因為這是一個示範計畫如果真的有問題我們隨時都可以檢討當然難道示範計畫能夠精進就不精進嗎?對啊所以我的意思是說如果示範計畫有空間可以精進明明我們看到有空間可以精進但卻不精進嗎?難道只是因為它是一個示範計畫我就可以隨隨便便嗎?我的意思是說就是因為示範計畫所以有問題我們馬上可以來做包括你剛剛委員在提說\n這個這個誘因啊或者說這個是不是現在5月才要開始現在還有兩個月的時間其實你就可以把這示範計畫弄得再完整規劃的再完整一點再讓他上路到時候示範計畫反映的才會是整體社會有沒有需求正確的資訊而不會因為現在可能我們在計劃規劃設計機制的不恰當或不周全\n反而造成你們想要去了解資訊上面的困難跟阻礙。」我的問題是這個事情,所以我們希望在事辦計畫再正式上路,即便它是事辦計畫,都應該再調整一次,再重新規劃一下它的內容,我們讓它好好的規劃好,再讓它上路好不好?好,謝謝,洪委員,也請部長再跟委員持續溝通,因為我們時間有關係。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.735 --> 00:36.004\n請許部長好請許部長侯委員好部長去年在11月的時候我質詢陳院長有向陳院長和部長也有在我們有討論這個關於照顧不離職的議題那後來部長其實也把這個議題交給部長來研議部長知不知道為什麼一定要在有行政院的院長在的時候要跟他提出這個問題知不知道為什麼\n\n00:42.840 --> 00:56.488\n因為我也同意照顧不離職這個問題其實不是單單勞動部自己的政策照顧不離職這個問題當然也涉及到一些企業相關制度上面工時安排的等等的問題\n\n00:57.549 --> 01:21.997\n這可能會有跨部會的部分但部長這個尤其是當初我們提出這個質詢的時候是因為很清楚台灣有33萬名的女性其實為了照顧家人而必須退職甚至是離開職場所以當初其實不管是成員長或部長其實都承認我們的制度跟職場其實對需要照顧家人的勞工很不友善所以讓人要照顧他為了要照顧家人他不得不\n\n01:23.598 --> 01:32.867\n離職甚至離職以後就回不來了這就是這33萬女性勞動力消失的很重要的原因甚至我們進行了國際的比較但部長\n\n01:34.266 --> 01:52.757\n你那時候答應我說一個月內會盤點問題去瞭解目前制度漏接了誰然後並且針對這些盤點來提出一個方案給行政院希望行政院可以支持可是部長四個月過去了請問勞動部有去盤點問題嗎?部長有有報告委勞動部有去盤點問題嗎?有\n\n02:03.055 --> 02:30.815\n有去了解制度到底漏接了誰嗎?有把政策建議給行政院嗎?部長有嗎?就是有我看這個有給委員部長我看到了我看到那份文件了但如果你仔細看那份文件你就很清楚的看到在這份文件上面沒有盤點問題只是在回覆說因為衛福部為了因應超高齡社會所以已經提供了長照服務了\n\n02:31.415 --> 02:51.198\n家庭照顧者所以已經可以放心投入勞動職場了勞工自己也可以選擇彈性工時和日托日照服務了不需因照顧離職影響家庭收入這是這一份報告上面的內容部長你同意嗎我是請你們去盤點問題結果你回了衣服跟我說現在沒有問題部長你同意嗎\n\n02:55.619 --> 03:08.299\n當初我是請你們盤點問題給行政院如果行政院不了解問題的話你們告訴行政院問題在哪裡在提供你們的政策建議是什麼希望能夠獲得行政院或者是我們經建部門的支持\n\n03:11.153 --> 03:28.227\n你告訴我都沒有問題,沒有問題那就不用改啊!如果這麼好就不用改啊!部長這是我要跟你講的第一件事情再來我要跟你說最近勞動部推出的事半談刑預計五月實施\n\n03:30.789 --> 03:45.312\n許部長你應該知道我其實是可以接受先求有再求好的人可是我必須說現在的這個計劃真的沒有辦法解決勞工就業不離職的問題甚至有可能衍生更多的問題部長知不知道為什麼我這樣說我跟部長說第一個為什麼需要僱主提交事辦計劃書啊為什麼要僱主提交事辦計劃書為什麼\n\n04:02.421 --> 04:18.120\n我們是希望說他如果來呼應這個計畫看他能做到什麼程度啦因為這個還是要雇主部長現在在這個計畫裡面我們看到的狀況是第一個對於企業對於雇主毫無誘因你們完全沒有放任何的誘因在這個計畫裡面\n\n04:20.489 --> 04:39.785\n第一個沒有誘因第二個僱主還要自己再提一個計劃書今天假設他忙於他的生意他忙於他的企業他還要自己再提一個計劃書而且毫無誘因他完全沒有任何好處在這裡面他為什麼要去提這件事情所以你反而製造了他想去做這件事情的門檻跟成本而且你沒有給任何誘因所以最有可能的結果是什麼\n\n04:46.717 --> 05:01.747\n我覺得最後可能的結果就是很少的企業很少的雇主願意來填寫這個計劃書因為他沒有誘因最後你們就回報給委員回報給立法院說你看都沒有企業有彈性誘因價的需求我覺得這最後很可能的狀況是這樣啊\n\n05:07.045 --> 05:28.912\n所以這是為什麼我要跟你說這一個彈性育嫁制度坦白說就我看起來我認為很有問題我們是當初最倡議照顧不離職彈性育嫁制度的委員之一但目前的這個方案第一個他很可能運作不起來為什麼沒有設計鼓勵誘因沒有我們沒有看到在裡面看到\n\n05:30.529 --> 05:59.530\n所以如果到時候運作不起來的時候到底是因為真正的雇主跟勞工沒有這個需求還是因為我們制度設計不良?部長,可以回答一下嗎?包委員,因為我想我們這個事辦計畫主要是要了解看企業到時候在運作上有沒有什麼困難那當然你剛剛有講的說可能會造成負擔或者就造成一個障礙這個部分我是覺得我們可以在\n\n06:01.090 --> 06:28.563\n至少你要求企業配合至少你希望企業一起來跟進這個政策跟這個理念我覺得這很好但為什麼這裡面毫無鼓勵跟誘因的機制這個部分其實我們會來再看看誘因部分來怎麼來設計但是我要跟委員講我們有先跟這些相關的團體其實我們跟他們有說明過也有溝通過也希望他們能夠我現在說到就是這些當初在倡議這些團體目前對於現在這個方案\n\n06:29.103 --> 06:55.918\n是很不滿意的是覺得問題很多的是覺得這很可能在這個事辦計畫裡面會運作不起來甚至最後就被以說那就沒有需求來一筆帶過的報告委員您講的是參與團體我現在講的是企業團體我的意思是說因為我有對象包括我們自己公部門我也請他們來幫忙參與這個計畫然後譬如說包括這些工商團體我們也幾個比較重要工商團體也請他們來\n\n06:57.639 --> 07:25.319\n部長但我跟你說其實對這些團體來說你弄一個這樣的他就說好那反正我就不去申請就不干我的事嘛你說你要提一個計畫書那他就好啊你就提但是他就不來申請報告委員有部主已經在詢問啦是但是我現在說的事情是說這個目前事辦計畫的設計在誘因的機制上面或相關門檻上面我覺得真的很多部分並不恰當是不是請部長能夠再重新檢討一下這樣子的內容\n\n07:27.677 --> 07:54.789\n不然我很擔心這反而不符合理念。我是覺得這樣因為這是一個示範計畫如果真的有問題我們隨時都可以檢討當然難道示範計畫能夠精進就不精進嗎?對啊所以我的意思是說如果示範計畫有空間可以精進明明我們看到有空間可以精進但卻不精進嗎?難道只是因為它是一個示範計畫我就可以隨隨便便嗎?我的意思是說就是因為示範計畫所以有問題我們馬上可以來做包括你剛剛委員在提說\n\n07:56.249 --> 08:12.516\n這個這個誘因啊或者說這個是不是現在5月才要開始現在還有兩個月的時間其實你就可以把這示範計畫弄得再完整規劃的再完整一點再讓他上路到時候示範計畫反映的才會是整體社會有沒有需求正確的資訊而不會因為現在可能我們在計劃規劃設計機制的不恰當或不周全\n\n08:18.758 --> 08:37.836\n反而造成你們想要去了解資訊上面的困難跟阻礙。」我的問題是這個事情,所以我們希望在事辦計畫再正式上路,即便它是事辦計畫,都應該再調整一次,再重新規劃一下它的內容,我們讓它好好的規劃好,再讓它上路好不好?好,謝謝,洪委員,也請部長再跟委員持續溝通,因為我們時間有關係。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.735,"end":36.004,"text":"請許部長好請許部長侯委員好部長去年在11月的時候我質詢陳院長有向陳院長和部長也有在我們有討論這個關於照顧不離職的議題那後來部長其實也把這個議題交給部長來研議部長知不知道為什麼一定要在有行政院的院長在的時候要跟他提出這個問題知不知道為什麼"},{"start":42.84,"end":56.488,"text":"因為我也同意照顧不離職這個問題其實不是單單勞動部自己的政策照顧不離職這個問題當然也涉及到一些企業相關制度上面工時安排的等等的問題"},{"start":57.549,"end":81.997,"text":"這可能會有跨部會的部分但部長這個尤其是當初我們提出這個質詢的時候是因為很清楚台灣有33萬名的女性其實為了照顧家人而必須退職甚至是離開職場所以當初其實不管是成員長或部長其實都承認我們的制度跟職場其實對需要照顧家人的勞工很不友善所以讓人要照顧他為了要照顧家人他不得不"},{"start":83.598,"end":92.867,"text":"離職甚至離職以後就回不來了這就是這33萬女性勞動力消失的很重要的原因甚至我們進行了國際的比較但部長"},{"start":94.266,"end":112.757,"text":"你那時候答應我說一個月內會盤點問題去瞭解目前制度漏接了誰然後並且針對這些盤點來提出一個方案給行政院希望行政院可以支持可是部長四個月過去了請問勞動部有去盤點問題嗎?部長有有報告委勞動部有去盤點問題嗎?有"},{"start":123.055,"end":150.815,"text":"有去了解制度到底漏接了誰嗎?有把政策建議給行政院嗎?部長有嗎?就是有我看這個有給委員部長我看到了我看到那份文件了但如果你仔細看那份文件你就很清楚的看到在這份文件上面沒有盤點問題只是在回覆說因為衛福部為了因應超高齡社會所以已經提供了長照服務了"},{"start":151.415,"end":171.198,"text":"家庭照顧者所以已經可以放心投入勞動職場了勞工自己也可以選擇彈性工時和日托日照服務了不需因照顧離職影響家庭收入這是這一份報告上面的內容部長你同意嗎我是請你們去盤點問題結果你回了衣服跟我說現在沒有問題部長你同意嗎"},{"start":175.619,"end":188.299,"text":"當初我是請你們盤點問題給行政院如果行政院不了解問題的話你們告訴行政院問題在哪裡在提供你們的政策建議是什麼希望能夠獲得行政院或者是我們經建部門的支持"},{"start":191.153,"end":208.227,"text":"你告訴我都沒有問題,沒有問題那就不用改啊!如果這麼好就不用改啊!部長這是我要跟你講的第一件事情再來我要跟你說最近勞動部推出的事半談刑預計五月實施"},{"start":210.789,"end":225.312,"text":"許部長你應該知道我其實是可以接受先求有再求好的人可是我必須說現在的這個計劃真的沒有辦法解決勞工就業不離職的問題甚至有可能衍生更多的問題部長知不知道為什麼我這樣說我跟部長說第一個為什麼需要僱主提交事辦計劃書啊為什麼要僱主提交事辦計劃書為什麼"},{"start":242.421,"end":258.12,"text":"我們是希望說他如果來呼應這個計畫看他能做到什麼程度啦因為這個還是要雇主部長現在在這個計畫裡面我們看到的狀況是第一個對於企業對於雇主毫無誘因你們完全沒有放任何的誘因在這個計畫裡面"},{"start":260.489,"end":279.785,"text":"第一個沒有誘因第二個僱主還要自己再提一個計劃書今天假設他忙於他的生意他忙於他的企業他還要自己再提一個計劃書而且毫無誘因他完全沒有任何好處在這裡面他為什麼要去提這件事情所以你反而製造了他想去做這件事情的門檻跟成本而且你沒有給任何誘因所以最有可能的結果是什麼"},{"start":286.717,"end":301.747,"text":"我覺得最後可能的結果就是很少的企業很少的雇主願意來填寫這個計劃書因為他沒有誘因最後你們就回報給委員回報給立法院說你看都沒有企業有彈性誘因價的需求我覺得這最後很可能的狀況是這樣啊"},{"start":307.045,"end":328.912,"text":"所以這是為什麼我要跟你說這一個彈性育嫁制度坦白說就我看起來我認為很有問題我們是當初最倡議照顧不離職彈性育嫁制度的委員之一但目前的這個方案第一個他很可能運作不起來為什麼沒有設計鼓勵誘因沒有我們沒有看到在裡面看到"},{"start":330.529,"end":359.53,"text":"所以如果到時候運作不起來的時候到底是因為真正的雇主跟勞工沒有這個需求還是因為我們制度設計不良?部長,可以回答一下嗎?包委員,因為我想我們這個事辦計畫主要是要了解看企業到時候在運作上有沒有什麼困難那當然你剛剛有講的說可能會造成負擔或者就造成一個障礙這個部分我是覺得我們可以在"},{"start":361.09,"end":388.563,"text":"至少你要求企業配合至少你希望企業一起來跟進這個政策跟這個理念我覺得這很好但為什麼這裡面毫無鼓勵跟誘因的機制這個部分其實我們會來再看看誘因部分來怎麼來設計但是我要跟委員講我們有先跟這些相關的團體其實我們跟他們有說明過也有溝通過也希望他們能夠我現在說到就是這些當初在倡議這些團體目前對於現在這個方案"},{"start":389.103,"end":415.918,"text":"是很不滿意的是覺得問題很多的是覺得這很可能在這個事辦計畫裡面會運作不起來甚至最後就被以說那就沒有需求來一筆帶過的報告委員您講的是參與團體我現在講的是企業團體我的意思是說因為我有對象包括我們自己公部門我也請他們來幫忙參與這個計畫然後譬如說包括這些工商團體我們也幾個比較重要工商團體也請他們來"},{"start":417.639,"end":445.319,"text":"部長但我跟你說其實對這些團體來說你弄一個這樣的他就說好那反正我就不去申請就不干我的事嘛你說你要提一個計畫書那他就好啊你就提但是他就不來申請報告委員有部主已經在詢問啦是但是我現在說的事情是說這個目前事辦計畫的設計在誘因的機制上面或相關門檻上面我覺得真的很多部分並不恰當是不是請部長能夠再重新檢討一下這樣子的內容"},{"start":447.677,"end":474.789,"text":"不然我很擔心這反而不符合理念。我是覺得這樣因為這是一個示範計畫如果真的有問題我們隨時都可以檢討當然難道示範計畫能夠精進就不精進嗎?對啊所以我的意思是說如果示範計畫有空間可以精進明明我們看到有空間可以精進但卻不精進嗎?難道只是因為它是一個示範計畫我就可以隨隨便便嗎?我的意思是說就是因為示範計畫所以有問題我們馬上可以來做包括你剛剛委員在提說"},{"start":476.249,"end":492.516,"text":"這個這個誘因啊或者說這個是不是現在5月才要開始現在還有兩個月的時間其實你就可以把這示範計畫弄得再完整規劃的再完整一點再讓他上路到時候示範計畫反映的才會是整體社會有沒有需求正確的資訊而不會因為現在可能我們在計劃規劃設計機制的不恰當或不周全"},{"start":498.758,"end":517.836,"text":"反而造成你們想要去了解資訊上面的困難跟阻礙。」我的問題是這個事情,所以我們希望在事辦計畫再正式上路,即便它是事辦計畫,都應該再調整一次,再重新規劃一下它的內容,我們讓它好好的規劃好,再讓它上路好不好?好,謝謝,洪委員,也請部長再跟委員持續溝通,因為我們時間有關係。"}]}}}}