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12:35:30","影片長度":"00:06:36","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部、教育部就「落實職場性別平等及性平三法上路如何落實雇主責任」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、教育部就「完善職場育兒環境及托育人員專業職能、工作倫理及職業道德之培訓策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【3月20日及21日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-7"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":396,"end_time":"2024-03-20T12:35:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T12:28:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1180,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時29分）謝謝主席！有請勞動部長跟衛福部長。"],["主席：部長跟次長，請。"],["李次長麗芬：委員好。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦了！我們就廢話不多說，直接進入主題。這個保姆虐嬰案可以說是一粒老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥，對此本席當然主張個案要重罰，當然現在從中央到地方，各級政府也會提供一些補救的措施，預防未來這樣的狀況再度上演，但本席今天要藉此提醒一下，新的措施也許針對個案可以有效預防，但是我們也要考量這些措施會不會造成整個產業跟從業人員提高門檻，以至於讓更多的幼托人員不太敢投入這個產業，就好像社工的問題一樣。所以我想先請問一下，你們的報告裡面提到112年辦理托育人員訓練，有2,316人取得資格，請問他們實際投入產業的人數跟比例是多少？"],["李次長麗芬：委員說的取得資格是在技術證這個部分嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：你們報告裡寫你們提供訓練，他們上完課應該是取得了技術證嘛。"],["李次長麗芬：我們的報告裡面是提到有多少人員受訓。"],["牛委員煦庭：勞動部報告第3頁提到112年計訓練2,316人，都通過了嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我們訓練了2,316人，目前就業率在追蹤當中，不過去年111年的時候，我們的訓後就業率是76%，112年的部分我們目前還在追蹤。"],["牛委員煦庭：這部分先請勞動部提供相關的資料，因為我除了關心他們的成功受訓跟成功投入從業的比例之外，我也關心年齡比例，因為這個受訓應該是不會開放，你總不會限制年輕人才能參加，很多是所謂的二度就業或是怎麼樣的人才能參加，對不對？那我要知道他的年齡比例，所以希望勞動部在會後提供詳細的資料來做一個報告。","第二個，我要去談這件事是因為我們發現現在的狀況是新人進不來，現在全臺灣一共有2萬7,134名保姆，其中50歲以上的占總人數六成以上，也就是說在接下來的十幾年裡面，可能會有一萬六千多名保姆陸續退休，因為即便他是二度就業，我們讓他繼續發揮他的價值，可是年紀跟健康的因素是不等人的，相對來講，如果我們沒有新人補上的話，未來還是會有很大的托育缺口，會影響我們的托育品質，所以我才要提這件事。就本席在基層的瞭解，很多人在基層是進不來的，尤其是年輕的從業人員，恐怕不太願意去做幼託人員的工作，以公共化的保姆為例，勞動部也好衛福部也好，你們知道在桃園，一個參與準公共化的保姆在一般的服務品質量能之下，他的收入大概是多少錢嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：要看他收幾個孩子。"],["牛委員煦庭：原則上收兩個啦，因為收多了其實大家就會擔心品質，對不對？收少了好像也不太好，那就收兩個，這其實是專家評估最適合的人數嘛！"],["李次長麗芬：那是3萬元以上。"],["牛委員煦庭：你都講以上，但我告訴你就是3萬元或3萬2,000元，因為參加準公共化，他的薪資其實是有天花板的，對不對？"],["李次長麗芬：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：請問保姆在從事幼托工作的中間能吃飯、休息嗎？實務上能休息嗎？應該是不能吧，對不對？這個是常識嘛！所以以正常收托的時間來講，他們一天是不是工作10個小時？因為理論上大家講朝8晚5中間休息這樣算工作8小時，可是他的工作特性是不能休息嘛，所以是10個小時，對不對？從禮拜一到禮拜五，每天工作10個小時，你知道這樣換算下來他們的平均時薪是多少錢嗎？勞動部長也要聽一下，這很重要喔！我換算給你聽，一個月收托2人大概3萬元，一天工作10小時，以5天來算，平均時薪是150元。請問勞動部長，我們勞基法的最低薪資是多少錢？"],["許部長銘春：2萬7,470元，一個小時的時薪是183元。"],["牛委員煦庭：那這樣換算下來，他的平均時薪其實是低於勞基法的待遇嘛！即便說政策上有很多的補貼方案，但是總體來講，這個產業環境是低薪，我能理解如果把薪水拉得很高的話，平價托育的政策精神又不見了，所以大家都不太敢談這件事情，但尤其是在這件事情發生之後，我就特別要提出這事，如果我們的產業環境依然是低薪，然後新人進不來的時候，我跟你講，未來的漏洞會愈來愈大，因為我們期待的狀況是人數要夠多，基數要做大，等你基數做大、大家都願意投入這個產業的時候，競爭才會激烈嘛！競爭激烈了品質才會提升嘛！這樣才會比較健康，你才能用正常的市場去汰除不適任的保姆啊！可是現在狀況是新人進不來、薪水太差，因此你沒有一股力量去汰除這些歪瓜劣棗，從而間接的導致這樣的悲劇發生，這是本席今天要強調的重點。那我現在就針對保姆低薪的問題請問你們如何在既兼顧準公共化，不要給家長太多負擔，但是又能夠改善這個從業環境的情況之下，衛福部跟勞動部的處置措施是什麼？"],["李次長麗芬：可能要跟委員再釐清的一點是，我們的托育人有分在居家……"],["牛委員煦庭：有機構的、在職的，我現在講的是準公共化的保姆啦！因為現在這個的從業比例很高，有兩萬多人，達93%。"],["李次長麗芬：這是居家的嘛。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["李次長麗芬：在居家托育這個部分我們本來就有一些獎勵的措施，之前修訂的時候就規定他若經過縣市政府的評核，我們會有一個額外的1萬2,000元的補助，協助他改善相關的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：是每個月1萬2,000元還是一年1萬2,000元？"],["李次長麗芬：一年先給1萬2,000元。"],["牛委員煦庭：一年1萬2,000元攤下來，你算算看加薪多少錢？有超過基本薪資嗎？我跟你講還是沒有啦！你既然要做，就直接大手筆的去改善產業體質，既然要補社會安全網，就花資源、花預算，用中央的方式去補中間的差額，你是不是比較希望讓幼托員覺得做這個工作有尊嚴，然後待遇也好，願意發展，你才有辦法把這餅做大嘛，對不對？衛福部應該不會反對這樣的說法吧？"],["李次長麗芬：我們會再來積極爭取相關的經費，再針對居家這部分來再強化。"],["牛委員煦庭：同樣的，我們剛剛提的這些問題，會後還是請提供詳細的書面資料。這件事對勞動部也很重要，是你們兩個跨部會的事情，請注意他們的勞動待遇。可以嗎？謝謝！"],["李次長麗芬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員，接下來請張雅琳委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-7","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","范雲","李坤城","洪孟楷","李彥秀","吳沛憶","洪申翰","牛煦庭","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:45,177\n委員好好辛苦了這個我們就廢話不多說我們就直接進入主題這個保母孽嬰案可以說是一粒老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥這本期當然主張個案要重罰那當然現在從中央到地方各級政府也會這個提供一些補救的措施跟預防未來這樣狀況在上演當然本期今天要藉這樣的東西去提醒一下新的措施也許針對個案可以有效預防\n\n3\n00:00:45,717 --> 00:01:03,250\n但是我們也要考量這些措施會不會造成整個產業跟從業人員的問題提高以至於讓更多的幼托人員不太敢投入這個產業的門檻就好像社工的問題一樣所以我想先請問一下你們的報告裡面有寫這個112年我們辦理托育人員訓練有2316人取得資格請問他們實際投入產業的人數跟比例是多少?\n\n4\n00:01:11,165 --> 00:01:15,470\n取得資格是在技術證這個部分嗎?現在是哪一個數字?訓練的部分。我們的報告裡面是提到有多少人員受訓?\n\n5\n00:01:32,845 --> 00:01:41,389\n勞動部的報告第三頁112年暨訓練2316人目前的就業率在追蹤當中不過去年111年的時候我們的就業率訓後就業率是76%是111那1、2的部分我們目前還在追蹤這部分我就先請勞動部提供相關的資料\n\n6\n00:01:57,576 --> 00:02:19,161\n我除了關心他們的成功授訓跟成功投入從業的比例之外我也關心年齡比例啊因為這個授訓應該是不會開放嘛你總不會限制年輕人才能參加對不對那很多是所謂的二度就業或者是怎麼樣才能參加對不對那我要知道他的年齡比例所以我希望勞動部會有提供詳細的資料來做一個報告第二個我要去談這件事的原因就是因為我們現在發現的狀況\n\n7\n00:02:21,121 --> 00:02:36,401\n新人進不來現在全台灣一共有27134名保姆其中50歲以上的佔總人數六成以上也就是說在接下來十幾年裡面可能會有16000多名保姆陸續退休因為即便他是二度就業我們就讓他發揮他的價值\n\n8\n00:02:38,263 --> 00:03:00,738\n可是年紀跟健康的因素那是不等人的那相對來講如果我們新人沒有補上的話未來還是會有很大的托育缺口會影響我們的托育品質對不對所以要提這件事那為什麼就本期在基層的了解很多人在基層是進不來的尤其是年輕的從業人員恐怕不太願意去做幼托人員的工作原因是什麼我以公共化的保姆為例這個勞動部也好衛福部也好你知道\n\n9\n00:03:02,141 --> 00:03:08,118\n在桃園大概一個參與準公共化的保姆在一般服務的品質、量能之下他的收入大概是多少錢嗎?\n\n10\n00:03:10,731 --> 00:03:38,451\n收幾個孩子原則上收兩個啦因為你收多了其實大家就擔心品質對不對收少了好像也不太那個就收兩個那個其實是大家專家評估最適合的人數嘛那是三萬塊以上嘛三萬塊以上你都講以上但我告訴你就是三萬或三萬二吧因為按照你參加準公共的話他的薪資其實是有天花板的對不對那請問喔保姆在從事幼托工作的時候他中間吃飯能休息嗎食物上能休息嗎\n\n11\n00:03:40,959 --> 00:03:59,926\n應該是不能吧?對不對?大家就是這個是常識嘛所以他們以正常收拖的時間來講其實一天是不是工作10個小時?因為理論上大家講照8晚5中間休息算工作8小時可是他的工作特性不能休息嘛所以是10個小時對不對?1到5對不對?禮拜一到禮拜五每天10個小時你知道這樣換算下來他們的平均時薪是多少錢嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:01,657 --> 00:04:28,457\n勞動部長也要聽一下很重要喔我換算給你聽一聽三萬塊拖兩個三萬塊一天工作十小時五天來算平均時薪一百五十塊勞動部長我們的勞基法的最低薪資是多少錢二七四七零一個小時一個小時一八三對不對那這樣換算下來它的平均時薪其實低於勞基法的待遇嘛那即便說你政策上有很多的補貼方案但是總體來講這個環境是低薪我能理解你如果把薪水搭得很高\n\n13\n00:04:29,398 --> 00:04:53,379\n評價托育的政策精神又不見了對不對所以大家都不太敢談這件事情但尤其是在這件事情發生之後我就要談這事啊如果我們的產業環境依然是低薪然後新人進不來的時候我跟你講這個未來的漏洞會越來越大因為我們期待的狀況是人數要夠多、基數要做大嘛你基數要做大大家都願意投入這個產業的時候競爭才會激烈嘛你競爭激烈的時候你的品質才會提升嘛\n\n14\n00:04:54,179 --> 00:05:22,470\n這樣才會比較健康,那你才能用正常的市場去汰除不適合的保母啊可是現在狀況是新人進不來,薪水也太差,然後那這個你就沒有一股力量去汰除拐瓜裂棗,然後從而間接的導致這樣的悲劇發生這本期今天要強調的重點那我現在就問針對這樣的問題,保母低薪的問題你如何再繼續兼顧準公共化,不要給家長太多負擔但是又能夠改善這個從業環境的情況之下檢問衛福部跟勞動部的處置措施是什麼\n\n15\n00:05:24,732 --> 00:05:37,196\n因為這個保姆可能要跟委員再釐清就是說我們的那個托育人員有分在居家有機構的、在職的我現在講總公共化的保姆啦因為現在這個從業比例很高嘛兩萬多93%嘛居家嘛對那居家這個部分我們本來就有一些獎勵的措施所以我們在這次之前的一個修訂的時候就是如果它經過縣市政府的平衡我們會有一個額外的一個一萬兩千元的一個\n\n16\n00:05:54,583 --> 00:06:07,558\n協助他改善相關...每個月一萬二還是一年一萬二?一年先一萬二。好,你一年一萬二,你攤下來你看加薪多少錢?是。你算起來有超過基本薪資嗎?我跟你講還是沒有啦。既然要做,就直接大手筆的去改善產業體質。\n\n17\n00:06:09,164 --> 00:06:33,285\n既然要說補社會安全網就花資源花預算用中央的方式去補中間的差額你是不是會比較讓誘託人願意覺得說做這個工作有尊嚴然後待遇也好願意發展你才有辦法把這個餅做大嘛對不對衛務部你應該不會反對這樣說法嘛好一樣齁相關的這些我們剛剛提的問題會不會還是要請提供詳細的書面資料勞動部長一樣很重要這事是你們兩個跨部會的事情請注意他們的勞動待遇可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7096\t9278\t好,謝謝主席,這個勞動部長跟那個衛福部長有請好來,部長跟次長請\n19384\t45177\t委員好好辛苦了這個我們就廢話不多說我們就直接進入主題這個保母孽嬰案可以說是一粒老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥這本期當然主張個案要重罰那當然現在從中央到地方各級政府也會這個提供一些補救的措施跟預防未來這樣狀況在上演當然本期今天要藉這樣的東西去提醒一下新的措施也許針對個案可以有效預防\n45717\t63250\t但是我們也要考量這些措施會不會造成整個產業跟從業人員的問題提高以至於讓更多的幼托人員不太敢投入這個產業的門檻就好像社工的問題一樣所以我想先請問一下你們的報告裡面有寫這個112年我們辦理托育人員訓練有2316人取得資格請問他們實際投入產業的人數跟比例是多少?\n71165\t75470\t取得資格是在技術證這個部分嗎?現在是哪一個數字?訓練的部分。我們的報告裡面是提到有多少人員受訓?\n92845\t101389\t勞動部的報告第三頁 112年暨訓練2316人目前的就業率在追蹤當中不過去年111年的時候我們的就業率訓後就業率是76%是111那1、2的部分我們目前還在追蹤這部分我就先請勞動部提供相關的資料\n117576\t139161\t我除了關心他們的成功授訓跟成功投入從業的比例之外我也關心年齡比例啊因為這個授訓應該是不會開放嘛你總不會限制年輕人才能參加對不對那很多是所謂的二度就業或者是怎麼樣才能參加對不對那我要知道他的年齡比例所以我希望勞動部會有提供詳細的資料來做一個報告第二個我要去談這件事的原因就是因為我們現在發現的狀況\n141121\t156401\t新人進不來現在全台灣一共有27134名保姆其中50歲以上的佔總人數六成以上也就是說在接下來十幾年裡面可能會有16000多名保姆陸續退休因為即便他是二度就業我們就讓他發揮他的價值\n158263\t180738\t可是年紀跟健康的因素那是不等人的那相對來講如果我們新人沒有補上的話未來還是會有很大的托育缺口會影響我們的托育品質對不對所以要提這件事那為什麼就本期在基層的了解很多人在基層是進不來的尤其是年輕的從業人員恐怕不太願意去做幼托人員的工作原因是什麼我以公共化的保姆為例這個勞動部也好衛福部也好你知道\n182141\t188118\t在桃園大概一個參與準公共化的保姆在一般服務的品質、量能之下他的收入大概是多少錢嗎?\n190731\t218451\t收幾個孩子原則上收兩個啦因為你收多了其實大家就擔心品質對不對收少了好像也不太那個就收兩個那個其實是大家專家評估最適合的人數嘛那是三萬塊以上嘛三萬塊以上你都講以上但我告訴你就是三萬或三萬二吧因為按照你參加準公共的話他的薪資其實是有天花板的對不對那請問喔保姆在從事幼托工作的時候他中間吃飯能休息嗎食物上能休息嗎\n220959\t239926\t應該是不能吧?對不對?大家就是這個是常識嘛所以他們以正常收拖的時間來講其實一天是不是工作10個小時?因為理論上大家講照8晚5中間休息算工作8小時可是他的工作特性不能休息嘛所以是10個小時對不對?1到5對不對?禮拜一到禮拜五每天10個小時你知道這樣換算下來他們的平均時薪是多少錢嗎?\n241657\t268457\t勞動部長也要聽一下很重要喔我換算給你聽一聽三萬塊拖兩個三萬塊一天工作十小時五天來算平均時薪一百五十塊勞動部長我們的勞基法的最低薪資是多少錢二七四七零一個小時一個小時一八三對不對那這樣換算下來它的平均時薪其實低於勞基法的待遇嘛那即便說你政策上有很多的補貼方案但是總體來講這個環境是低薪我能理解你如果把薪水搭得很高\n269398\t293379\t評價托育的政策精神又不見了對不對所以大家都不太敢談這件事情但尤其是在這件事情發生之後我就要談這事啊如果我們的產業環境依然是低薪然後新人進不來的時候我跟你講這個未來的漏洞會越來越大因為我們期待的狀況是人數要夠多、基數要做大嘛你基數要做大大家都願意投入這個產業的時候競爭才會激烈嘛你競爭激烈的時候你的品質才會提升嘛\n294179\t322470\t這樣才會比較健康,那你才能用正常的市場去汰除不適合的保母啊可是現在狀況是新人進不來,薪水也太差,然後那這個你就沒有一股力量去汰除拐瓜裂棗,然後從而間接的導致這樣的悲劇發生這本期今天要強調的重點那我現在就問針對這樣的問題,保母低薪的問題你如何再繼續兼顧準公共化,不要給家長太多負擔但是又能夠改善這個從業環境的情況之下檢問衛福部跟勞動部的處置措施是什麼\n324732\t337196\t因為這個保姆可能要跟委員再釐清就是說我們的那個托育人員有分在居家有機構的、在職的我現在講總公共化的保姆啦因為現在這個從業比例很高嘛兩萬多93%嘛居家嘛對那居家這個部分我們本來就有一些獎勵的措施所以我們在這次之前的一個修訂的時候就是如果它經過縣市政府的平衡我們會有一個額外的一個一萬兩千元的一個\n354583\t367558\t協助他改善相關...每個月一萬二還是一年一萬二?一年先一萬二。好,你一年一萬二,你攤下來你看加薪多少錢?是。你算起來有超過基本薪資嗎?我跟你講還是沒有啦。既然要做,就直接大手筆的去改善產業體質。\n369164\t393285\t既然要說補社會安全網就花資源花預算用中央的方式去補中間的差額你是不是會比較讓誘託人願意覺得說做這個工作有尊嚴然後待遇也好願意發展你才有辦法把這個餅做大嘛對不對 衛務部你應該不會反對這樣說法嘛好 一樣齁 相關的這些我們剛剛提的問題會不會還是要請提供詳細的書面資料勞動部長一樣很重要這事是你們兩個跨部會的事情請注意他們的勞動待遇可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席,這個勞動部長跟那個衛福部長有請好來,部長跟次長請\n委員好好辛苦了這個我們就廢話不多說我們就直接進入主題這個保母孽嬰案可以說是一粒老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥這本期當然主張個案要重罰那當然現在從中央到地方各級政府也會這個提供一些補救的措施跟預防未來這樣狀況在上演當然本期今天要藉這樣的東西去提醒一下新的措施也許針對個案可以有效預防\n但是我們也要考量這些措施會不會造成整個產業跟從業人員的問題提高以至於讓更多的幼托人員不太敢投入這個產業的門檻就好像社工的問題一樣所以我想先請問一下你們的報告裡面有寫這個112年我們辦理托育人員訓練有2316人取得資格請問他們實際投入產業的人數跟比例是多少?\n取得資格是在技術證這個部分嗎?現在是哪一個數字?訓練的部分。我們的報告裡面是提到有多少人員受訓?\n勞動部的報告第三頁 112年暨訓練2316人目前的就業率在追蹤當中不過去年111年的時候我們的就業率訓後就業率是76%是111那1、2的部分我們目前還在追蹤這部分我就先請勞動部提供相關的資料\n我除了關心他們的成功授訓跟成功投入從業的比例之外我也關心年齡比例啊因為這個授訓應該是不會開放嘛你總不會限制年輕人才能參加對不對那很多是所謂的二度就業或者是怎麼樣才能參加對不對那我要知道他的年齡比例所以我希望勞動部會有提供詳細的資料來做一個報告第二個我要去談這件事的原因就是因為我們現在發現的狀況\n新人進不來現在全台灣一共有27134名保姆其中50歲以上的佔總人數六成以上也就是說在接下來十幾年裡面可能會有16000多名保姆陸續退休因為即便他是二度就業我們就讓他發揮他的價值\n可是年紀跟健康的因素那是不等人的那相對來講如果我們新人沒有補上的話未來還是會有很大的托育缺口會影響我們的托育品質對不對所以要提這件事那為什麼就本期在基層的了解很多人在基層是進不來的尤其是年輕的從業人員恐怕不太願意去做幼托人員的工作原因是什麼我以公共化的保姆為例這個勞動部也好衛福部也好你知道\n在桃園大概一個參與準公共化的保姆在一般服務的品質、量能之下他的收入大概是多少錢嗎?\n收幾個孩子原則上收兩個啦因為你收多了其實大家就擔心品質對不對收少了好像也不太那個就收兩個那個其實是大家專家評估最適合的人數嘛那是三萬塊以上嘛三萬塊以上你都講以上但我告訴你就是三萬或三萬二吧因為按照你參加準公共的話他的薪資其實是有天花板的對不對那請問喔保姆在從事幼托工作的時候他中間吃飯能休息嗎食物上能休息嗎\n應該是不能吧?對不對?大家就是這個是常識嘛所以他們以正常收拖的時間來講其實一天是不是工作10個小時?因為理論上大家講照8晚5中間休息算工作8小時可是他的工作特性不能休息嘛所以是10個小時對不對?1到5對不對?禮拜一到禮拜五每天10個小時你知道這樣換算下來他們的平均時薪是多少錢嗎?\n勞動部長也要聽一下很重要喔我換算給你聽一聽三萬塊拖兩個三萬塊一天工作十小時五天來算平均時薪一百五十塊勞動部長我們的勞基法的最低薪資是多少錢二七四七零一個小時一個小時一八三對不對那這樣換算下來它的平均時薪其實低於勞基法的待遇嘛那即便說你政策上有很多的補貼方案但是總體來講這個環境是低薪我能理解你如果把薪水搭得很高\n評價托育的政策精神又不見了對不對所以大家都不太敢談這件事情但尤其是在這件事情發生之後我就要談這事啊如果我們的產業環境依然是低薪然後新人進不來的時候我跟你講這個未來的漏洞會越來越大因為我們期待的狀況是人數要夠多、基數要做大嘛你基數要做大大家都願意投入這個產業的時候競爭才會激烈嘛你競爭激烈的時候你的品質才會提升嘛\n這樣才會比較健康,那你才能用正常的市場去汰除不適合的保母啊可是現在狀況是新人進不來,薪水也太差,然後那這個你就沒有一股力量去汰除拐瓜裂棗,然後從而間接的導致這樣的悲劇發生這本期今天要強調的重點那我現在就問針對這樣的問題,保母低薪的問題你如何再繼續兼顧準公共化,不要給家長太多負擔但是又能夠改善這個從業環境的情況之下檢問衛福部跟勞動部的處置措施是什麼\n因為這個保姆可能要跟委員再釐清就是說我們的那個托育人員有分在居家有機構的、在職的我現在講總公共化的保姆啦因為現在這個從業比例很高嘛兩萬多93%嘛居家嘛對那居家這個部分我們本來就有一些獎勵的措施所以我們在這次之前的一個修訂的時候就是如果它經過縣市政府的平衡我們會有一個額外的一個一萬兩千元的一個\n協助他改善相關...每個月一萬二還是一年一萬二?一年先一萬二。好,你一年一萬二,你攤下來你看加薪多少錢?是。你算起來有超過基本薪資嗎?我跟你講還是沒有啦。既然要做,就直接大手筆的去改善產業體質。\n既然要說補社會安全網就花資源花預算用中央的方式去補中間的差額你是不是會比較讓誘託人願意覺得說做這個工作有尊嚴然後待遇也好願意發展你才有辦法把這個餅做大嘛對不對 衛務部你應該不會反對這樣說法嘛好 一樣齁 相關的這些我們剛剛提的問題會不會還是要請提供詳細的書面資料勞動部長一樣很重要這事是你們兩個跨部會的事情請注意他們的勞動待遇可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.096 --> 00:09.278\n好,謝謝主席,這個勞動部長跟那個衛福部長有請好來,部長跟次長請\n\n00:19.384 --> 00:45.177\n委員好好辛苦了這個我們就廢話不多說我們就直接進入主題這個保母孽嬰案可以說是一粒老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥這本期當然主張個案要重罰那當然現在從中央到地方各級政府也會這個提供一些補救的措施跟預防未來這樣狀況在上演當然本期今天要藉這樣的東西去提醒一下新的措施也許針對個案可以有效預防\n\n00:45.717 --> 01:03.250\n但是我們也要考量這些措施會不會造成整個產業跟從業人員的問題提高以至於讓更多的幼托人員不太敢投入這個產業的門檻就好像社工的問題一樣所以我想先請問一下你們的報告裡面有寫這個112年我們辦理托育人員訓練有2316人取得資格請問他們實際投入產業的人數跟比例是多少?\n\n01:11.165 --> 01:15.470\n取得資格是在技術證這個部分嗎?現在是哪一個數字?訓練的部分。我們的報告裡面是提到有多少人員受訓?\n\n01:32.845 --> 01:41.389\n勞動部的報告第三頁112年暨訓練2316人目前的就業率在追蹤當中不過去年111年的時候我們的就業率訓後就業率是76%是111那1、2的部分我們目前還在追蹤這部分我就先請勞動部提供相關的資料\n\n01:57.576 --> 02:19.161\n我除了關心他們的成功授訓跟成功投入從業的比例之外我也關心年齡比例啊因為這個授訓應該是不會開放嘛你總不會限制年輕人才能參加對不對那很多是所謂的二度就業或者是怎麼樣才能參加對不對那我要知道他的年齡比例所以我希望勞動部會有提供詳細的資料來做一個報告第二個我要去談這件事的原因就是因為我們現在發現的狀況\n\n02:21.121 --> 02:36.401\n新人進不來現在全台灣一共有27134名保姆其中50歲以上的佔總人數六成以上也就是說在接下來十幾年裡面可能會有16000多名保姆陸續退休因為即便他是二度就業我們就讓他發揮他的價值\n\n02:38.263 --> 03:00.738\n可是年紀跟健康的因素那是不等人的那相對來講如果我們新人沒有補上的話未來還是會有很大的托育缺口會影響我們的托育品質對不對所以要提這件事那為什麼就本期在基層的了解很多人在基層是進不來的尤其是年輕的從業人員恐怕不太願意去做幼托人員的工作原因是什麼我以公共化的保姆為例這個勞動部也好衛福部也好你知道\n\n03:02.141 --> 03:08.118\n在桃園大概一個參與準公共化的保姆在一般服務的品質、量能之下他的收入大概是多少錢嗎?\n\n03:10.731 --> 03:38.451\n收幾個孩子原則上收兩個啦因為你收多了其實大家就擔心品質對不對收少了好像也不太那個就收兩個那個其實是大家專家評估最適合的人數嘛那是三萬塊以上嘛三萬塊以上你都講以上但我告訴你就是三萬或三萬二吧因為按照你參加準公共的話他的薪資其實是有天花板的對不對那請問喔保姆在從事幼托工作的時候他中間吃飯能休息嗎食物上能休息嗎\n\n03:40.959 --> 03:59.926\n應該是不能吧?對不對?大家就是這個是常識嘛所以他們以正常收拖的時間來講其實一天是不是工作10個小時?因為理論上大家講照8晚5中間休息算工作8小時可是他的工作特性不能休息嘛所以是10個小時對不對?1到5對不對?禮拜一到禮拜五每天10個小時你知道這樣換算下來他們的平均時薪是多少錢嗎?\n\n04:01.657 --> 04:28.457\n勞動部長也要聽一下很重要喔我換算給你聽一聽三萬塊拖兩個三萬塊一天工作十小時五天來算平均時薪一百五十塊勞動部長我們的勞基法的最低薪資是多少錢二七四七零一個小時一個小時一八三對不對那這樣換算下來它的平均時薪其實低於勞基法的待遇嘛那即便說你政策上有很多的補貼方案但是總體來講這個環境是低薪我能理解你如果把薪水搭得很高\n\n04:29.398 --> 04:53.379\n評價托育的政策精神又不見了對不對所以大家都不太敢談這件事情但尤其是在這件事情發生之後我就要談這事啊如果我們的產業環境依然是低薪然後新人進不來的時候我跟你講這個未來的漏洞會越來越大因為我們期待的狀況是人數要夠多、基數要做大嘛你基數要做大大家都願意投入這個產業的時候競爭才會激烈嘛你競爭激烈的時候你的品質才會提升嘛\n\n04:54.179 --> 05:22.470\n這樣才會比較健康,那你才能用正常的市場去汰除不適合的保母啊可是現在狀況是新人進不來,薪水也太差,然後那這個你就沒有一股力量去汰除拐瓜裂棗,然後從而間接的導致這樣的悲劇發生這本期今天要強調的重點那我現在就問針對這樣的問題,保母低薪的問題你如何再繼續兼顧準公共化,不要給家長太多負擔但是又能夠改善這個從業環境的情況之下檢問衛福部跟勞動部的處置措施是什麼\n\n05:24.732 --> 05:37.196\n因為這個保姆可能要跟委員再釐清就是說我們的那個托育人員有分在居家有機構的、在職的我現在講總公共化的保姆啦因為現在這個從業比例很高嘛兩萬多93%嘛居家嘛對那居家這個部分我們本來就有一些獎勵的措施所以我們在這次之前的一個修訂的時候就是如果它經過縣市政府的平衡我們會有一個額外的一個一萬兩千元的一個\n\n05:54.583 --> 06:07.558\n協助他改善相關...每個月一萬二還是一年一萬二?一年先一萬二。好,你一年一萬二,你攤下來你看加薪多少錢?是。你算起來有超過基本薪資嗎?我跟你講還是沒有啦。既然要做,就直接大手筆的去改善產業體質。\n\n06:09.164 --> 06:33.285\n既然要說補社會安全網就花資源花預算用中央的方式去補中間的差額你是不是會比較讓誘託人願意覺得說做這個工作有尊嚴然後待遇也好願意發展你才有辦法把這個餅做大嘛對不對衛務部你應該不會反對這樣說法嘛好一樣齁相關的這些我們剛剛提的問題會不會還是要請提供詳細的書面資料勞動部長一樣很重要這事是你們兩個跨部會的事情請注意他們的勞動待遇可以嗎好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.096,"end":9.278,"text":"好,謝謝主席,這個勞動部長跟那個衛福部長有請好來,部長跟次長請"},{"start":19.384,"end":45.177,"text":"委員好好辛苦了這個我們就廢話不多說我們就直接進入主題這個保母孽嬰案可以說是一粒老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥這本期當然主張個案要重罰那當然現在從中央到地方各級政府也會這個提供一些補救的措施跟預防未來這樣狀況在上演當然本期今天要藉這樣的東西去提醒一下新的措施也許針對個案可以有效預防"},{"start":45.717,"end":63.25,"text":"但是我們也要考量這些措施會不會造成整個產業跟從業人員的問題提高以至於讓更多的幼托人員不太敢投入這個產業的門檻就好像社工的問題一樣所以我想先請問一下你們的報告裡面有寫這個112年我們辦理托育人員訓練有2316人取得資格請問他們實際投入產業的人數跟比例是多少?"},{"start":71.165,"end":75.47,"text":"取得資格是在技術證這個部分嗎?現在是哪一個數字?訓練的部分。我們的報告裡面是提到有多少人員受訓?"},{"start":92.845,"end":101.389,"text":"勞動部的報告第三頁 112年暨訓練2316人目前的就業率在追蹤當中不過去年111年的時候我們的就業率訓後就業率是76%是111那1、2的部分我們目前還在追蹤這部分我就先請勞動部提供相關的資料"},{"start":117.576,"end":139.161,"text":"我除了關心他們的成功授訓跟成功投入從業的比例之外我也關心年齡比例啊因為這個授訓應該是不會開放嘛你總不會限制年輕人才能參加對不對那很多是所謂的二度就業或者是怎麼樣才能參加對不對那我要知道他的年齡比例所以我希望勞動部會有提供詳細的資料來做一個報告第二個我要去談這件事的原因就是因為我們現在發現的狀況"},{"start":141.121,"end":156.401,"text":"新人進不來現在全台灣一共有27134名保姆其中50歲以上的佔總人數六成以上也就是說在接下來十幾年裡面可能會有16000多名保姆陸續退休因為即便他是二度就業我們就讓他發揮他的價值"},{"start":158.263,"end":180.738,"text":"可是年紀跟健康的因素那是不等人的那相對來講如果我們新人沒有補上的話未來還是會有很大的托育缺口會影響我們的托育品質對不對所以要提這件事那為什麼就本期在基層的了解很多人在基層是進不來的尤其是年輕的從業人員恐怕不太願意去做幼托人員的工作原因是什麼我以公共化的保姆為例這個勞動部也好衛福部也好你知道"},{"start":182.141,"end":188.118,"text":"在桃園大概一個參與準公共化的保姆在一般服務的品質、量能之下他的收入大概是多少錢嗎?"},{"start":190.731,"end":218.451,"text":"收幾個孩子原則上收兩個啦因為你收多了其實大家就擔心品質對不對收少了好像也不太那個就收兩個那個其實是大家專家評估最適合的人數嘛那是三萬塊以上嘛三萬塊以上你都講以上但我告訴你就是三萬或三萬二吧因為按照你參加準公共的話他的薪資其實是有天花板的對不對那請問喔保姆在從事幼托工作的時候他中間吃飯能休息嗎食物上能休息嗎"},{"start":220.959,"end":239.926,"text":"應該是不能吧?對不對?大家就是這個是常識嘛所以他們以正常收拖的時間來講其實一天是不是工作10個小時?因為理論上大家講照8晚5中間休息算工作8小時可是他的工作特性不能休息嘛所以是10個小時對不對?1到5對不對?禮拜一到禮拜五每天10個小時你知道這樣換算下來他們的平均時薪是多少錢嗎?"},{"start":241.657,"end":268.457,"text":"勞動部長也要聽一下很重要喔我換算給你聽一聽三萬塊拖兩個三萬塊一天工作十小時五天來算平均時薪一百五十塊勞動部長我們的勞基法的最低薪資是多少錢二七四七零一個小時一個小時一八三對不對那這樣換算下來它的平均時薪其實低於勞基法的待遇嘛那即便說你政策上有很多的補貼方案但是總體來講這個環境是低薪我能理解你如果把薪水搭得很高"},{"start":269.398,"end":293.379,"text":"評價托育的政策精神又不見了對不對所以大家都不太敢談這件事情但尤其是在這件事情發生之後我就要談這事啊如果我們的產業環境依然是低薪然後新人進不來的時候我跟你講這個未來的漏洞會越來越大因為我們期待的狀況是人數要夠多、基數要做大嘛你基數要做大大家都願意投入這個產業的時候競爭才會激烈嘛你競爭激烈的時候你的品質才會提升嘛"},{"start":294.179,"end":322.47,"text":"這樣才會比較健康,那你才能用正常的市場去汰除不適合的保母啊可是現在狀況是新人進不來,薪水也太差,然後那這個你就沒有一股力量去汰除拐瓜裂棗,然後從而間接的導致這樣的悲劇發生這本期今天要強調的重點那我現在就問針對這樣的問題,保母低薪的問題你如何再繼續兼顧準公共化,不要給家長太多負擔但是又能夠改善這個從業環境的情況之下檢問衛福部跟勞動部的處置措施是什麼"},{"start":324.732,"end":337.196,"text":"因為這個保姆可能要跟委員再釐清就是說我們的那個托育人員有分在居家有機構的、在職的我現在講總公共化的保姆啦因為現在這個從業比例很高嘛兩萬多93%嘛居家嘛對那居家這個部分我們本來就有一些獎勵的措施所以我們在這次之前的一個修訂的時候就是如果它經過縣市政府的平衡我們會有一個額外的一個一萬兩千元的一個"},{"start":354.583,"end":367.558,"text":"協助他改善相關...每個月一萬二還是一年一萬二?一年先一萬二。好,你一年一萬二,你攤下來你看加薪多少錢?是。你算起來有超過基本薪資嗎?我跟你講還是沒有啦。既然要做,就直接大手筆的去改善產業體質。"},{"start":369.164,"end":393.285,"text":"既然要說補社會安全網就花資源花預算用中央的方式去補中間的差額你是不是會比較讓誘託人願意覺得說做這個工作有尊嚴然後待遇也好願意發展你才有辦法把這個餅做大嘛對不對 衛務部你應該不會反對這樣說法嘛好 一樣齁 相關的這些我們剛剛提的問題會不會還是要請提供詳細的書面資料勞動部長一樣很重要這事是你們兩個跨部會的事情請注意他們的勞動待遇可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}}}