{"id":150180,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150180","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192925075a56a301df6753301a1aac7f2e9f8ba9b0039caa7a608a14d7533f606395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:44:04 - 12:50:40","影片長度":"00:06:36","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就「國土計畫推動辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":396,"end_time":"2024-03-20T12:50:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T12:44:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1080,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時44分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。其實今天非常多委員都很關心，依照住宅法第二十五條所訂的社會住宅分級租金收費辦法，本席必須老實告訴部長，剛才坐在下面聽，包括之前透過轉播系統聽您說明，您今天說的內容和之前內政部的會議紀錄，甚至是提出的辦法，其實不太一致。","剛才本席仔細聆聽您所說的，現在內政部規劃要從收入別改為身分別這件事情，您是贊成雙軌制，就是你要用身分也可以，用收入也可以。第二個，你們訂的這個辦法是天花板，只要不超過，縣市政府要用收入別訂的更低也沒有問題。本席有沒有理解錯誤？"],["林部長右昌：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：好。本席真的要拜託部長回去再看一下，花敬群次長在歷次會議當中的發言，他對地方政府是怎麼說的？他對民間團體是怎麼說的？以及那個草案具體的內容如何？例如該辦法中提到，各縣市政府現在的租約如果是用收入別，例如臺北、新北、桃園都是這樣，他要求等到租約期滿以後就要換回來，改用現在訂的辦法，就是換身分別，這個辦法就是白紙黑字這麼寫的。所以本席想了很久，我想部長對這件事情應該很了解啦！應該不會出現誤認的狀況，所以本席用比較善意的方式解讀，部長是不是不贊成花敬群那樣的訂法？"],["林部長右昌：應該是說，例如剛才說的臺北市是用收入別，等3+3的租約時間到了之後，如果他們要換軌變成身分別的話，可……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，他們還是要繼續維持收入別。"],["林部長右昌：他們如果要繼續維持收入別，我們尊重。"],["黃委員國昌：中央的補助不會有影響？"],["林部長右昌：其實我們的新聞稿也有提到，差額的部分中央會支持。"],["黃委員國昌：所以中央會支持？包括臺北、桃園，就本席所知，蔣萬安市長、張善政市長都很關心這件事情。"],["林部長右昌：不過委員，有一件事情也需要地方政府一起幫忙，例如臺北市的確有這個狀況，就是中低收入的身分認定問題，七成三的所得收入居然比低收入戶者還低，但是實際上具有這類身分的只有15%，這也是一個很大的落差，桃園的落差就比較小。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，有關收入的查核，這本來就是政府應該要負的責任，本席相信部長也同意這點啦！"],["林部長右昌：是，請委員先讓我補充說明。但是不能只靠報稅的收入，因為我們還有財稅資料以外的審查機制，包括股息、利息、車輛或者存款，還有親友的資助。"],["黃委員國昌：這個沒有問題。不過從國家制度的角度來看，住宅法2021年通過，到現在也兩年多，這兩年多的時間，中央透過什麼樣的方法去覈實收入，這些我們大家都同意，今天會有這麼多人站出來反彈，是因為我們擔心被歸為一般戶的部分，有非常多都是年輕人。"],["林部長右昌：是，就是所謂的低薪年輕人。"],["黃委員國昌：他們的收入可能是3萬元上下，大家擔心的是，依照現在花敬群搞的辦法改用身分別，他們全部被歸為一般戶，收入不管是3萬元、5萬元、7萬元、8萬元，租金標準是一模一樣，對他們產生非常大的擠壓，而且租金會上漲，但我今天聽到部長講一句話，所以我今天上來質詢，我只要一個承諾，部長說你們的辦法通過了以後，他們現在面臨的租金絕對不會因此而調漲對不對？"],["林部長右昌：在我們的設計裡面不會，因為我們是將整個租金的水準往下降。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！部長，我選擇相信你，因為我知道應該是下禮拜三，住宅會議要討論這個辦法，主席是您嘛！我建議部長，您當主席的時候，真的好好地再把那個辦法的條文看清楚，然後按照您今天在內政委員會上面所宣示的原則來處理，這樣部長您可以承諾嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我想這是我們部一貫的原則，這沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我相信而且我知道你的立場可能比較困難一點，要你在這個公開的場合去說花敬群搞那個辦法搞得天怒人怨，大家都反彈，可能你會比較為難一點，但沒有關係，我們今天在這邊質詢不是要造成任何人的尷尬，我們代表的、我們希望保護的都是那些低薪的青年，今天有部長這樣子的承諾，我只拜託部長，下禮拜開會的時候你一定要撐住，按照你在今天這裡跟大家所講的承諾做，這樣好不好？"],["林部長右昌：委員，沒有這個問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：也謝謝委員今天非常地溫柔，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢，請部長在會議的時候也要按照今天臨時提案的精神來做辦理。","好，下一位我們請林淑芬委員提出質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","蘇巧慧","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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00:01:37,969\n只要不超過縣市政府要訂的更低用收入別訂更低也沒有問題我有沒有理解錯誤?沒有好但我真的要拜託部長回去再看一下花敬群次長在歷次的會議當中他的發言\n\n5\n00:01:38,829 --> 00:01:55,716\n他對於地方政府怎麼說的他對於民間團體怎麼說的以及那個草案具體的內容譬如說他辦法裡面就講了各個縣市政府在現在租約是用收入別譬如說台北、新北、桃園通通都是這個樣子\n\n6\n00:01:57,777 --> 00:02:14,729\n他要求說等到租約期滿了以後你就要換回來他現在鎖定的辦法用身分別這個在辦法裡面的白紙黑字是這樣寫的所以我想了很久我想部長應該對這件事情很了解應該不會出現誤論的狀況所以\n\n7\n00:02:23,544 --> 00:02:51,158\n我用比較善意的方式解讀不找你你是不是不贊成花敬群那樣的定法我跟委員報告一下應該是說他如果租約如果比如說他比如說像剛剛在講台鐵市他這個收入別他時間如果到3加3之後時間如果到如果他要換軌變成是身分別的話沒有沒有他還要繼續維持收入別那他如果要繼續維持收入別我想這個尊重\n\n8\n00:02:52,359 --> 00:03:08,324\n然後中央的補助不會有影響?剛剛我們希望稿其實也有提到就是XL的部分這個中央我們會來支持所以中央會支持?對所以包括了臺北包括了桃園因為我知道蔣萬安市長\n\n9\n00:03:09,564 --> 00:03:37,970\n張善政事長都很關心這個事情。不過委員我要跟你報告一下有一個事情也必須要地方政府大家一起來幫忙也比如說在臺北市的確有這個狀況就是那個身份的這個中低收入的這個身份的一個認定的一個問題7乘3是他的一個所得收入居然是比低收入貨者還低但是他實際上有這個身份的只有15%所以這是一個很大的落差\n\n10\n00:03:38,510 --> 00:04:06,037\n我這樣說好了啦桃園的落差比較小我這樣說好了齁在有關於收入的查核上這本來就是政府應該要負的責任我相信部長可以同意啦是這個讓委員讓我一句話補充但是不能只靠報稅的收入因為我們也有看到所謂財稅資料以外的審查機制這個包括股息、利息、車輛或者存款還有親友的資助這個沒有問題\n\n11\n00:04:07,637 --> 00:04:07,757\n主席\n\n12\n00:04:28,271 --> 00:04:55,998\n被歸為一般戶裡面有非常多的年輕人他們可能收入他們收入三萬塊上下大家擔心的是依照現在花敬群搞的辦法用身份別他們全部被歸為一般戶收入三萬塊的五萬塊的七萬塊的八萬塊的租金標準是一模一樣對他們產生非常大的擠壓而且租金會上漲但\n\n13\n00:04:56,778 --> 00:05:14,857\n我今天聽到部長講一句話所以我今天上來質詢我只要一個承諾部長說你們的辦法通過了以後他們現在面臨的租金絕對不會因此而調漲對不對在我們的設計裡面不會因為我們是將整個租金的一個水準往下降\n\n14\n00:05:16,559 --> 00:05:34,305\n沒有關係部長我選擇相信你因為我知道應該是下禮拜三住宅會議要討論這個辦法主席是你嘛我建議部長您當主席的時候真的好好的再把那個辦法的條文看清楚然後\n\n15\n00:05:35,725 --> 00:05:47,474\n按照您今天在內政委員會上面所宣誓的原則來處理,這樣部長您可以承諾嗎?我想這個是我們不一貫的一個原則,沒問題。我相信就是說\n\n16\n00:05:50,731 --> 00:06:05,899\n我知道你的立場可能比較困難一點要你在這個公開的場合去說話去搞那個辦法搞得天怒人怨大家都反彈可能你會比較為難一點但沒有關係我們今天在這邊質詢不是要造成任何人的尷尬\n\n17\n00:06:07,079 --> 00:06:07,859\n謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢請部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n389\t409\t參委員質詢。\n23543\t48596\t好 委員黃部長今天其實非常多的委員大家都非常關心依照住宅法第25條我們所訂的社會住宅分級租金收費的辦法我必須要老實跟部長講我剛剛坐在下面聽包括前面我透過轉播的系統在聽您講我必須要老實說您今天講的內容跟我們之前看\n50103\t79015\t在內政部開會的會議記錄甚至出來的辦法其實不太一致剛我仔細聆聽了您所講的你說大家對於現在內政部規劃要從收入別改成身分別這一件事情您是贊成雙軌的就是你要用身分也可以你要用收入也可以第二個你們所定的這個辦法是天花板\n80020\t97969\t只要不超過縣市政府要訂的更低用收入別訂更低也沒有問題我有沒有理解錯誤?沒有好但我真的要拜託部長回去再看一下花敬群次長在歷次的會議當中他的發言\n98829\t115716\t他對於地方政府怎麼說的他對於民間團體怎麼說的以及那個草案具體的內容譬如說他辦法裡面就講了各個縣市政府在現在租約是用收入別譬如說台北、新北、桃園通通都是這個樣子\n117777\t134729\t他要求說等到租約期滿了以後你就要換回來他現在鎖定的辦法用身分別這個在辦法裡面的白紙黑字是這樣寫的所以我想了很久我想部長應該對這件事情很了解應該不會出現誤論的狀況所以\n143544\t171158\t我用比較善意的方式解讀不找你你是不是不贊成花敬群那樣的定法我跟委員報告一下應該是說他如果租約如果比如說他比如說像剛剛在講台鐵市他這個收入別他時間如果到3加3之後時間如果到如果他要換軌變成是身分別的話沒有沒有他還要繼續維持收入別那他如果要繼續維持收入別我想這個尊重\n172359\t188324\t然後中央的補助不會有影響?剛剛我們希望稿其實也有提到就是XL的部分這個中央我們會來支持所以中央會支持?對所以包括了臺北包括了桃園因為我知道蔣萬安市長\n189564\t217970\t張善政事長都很關心這個事情。不過委員我要跟你報告一下有一個事情也必須要地方政府大家一起來幫忙也比如說在臺北市的確有這個狀況就是那個身份的這個中低收入的這個身份的一個認定的一個問題7乘3是他的一個所得收入居然是比低收入貨者還低但是他實際上有這個身份的只有15%所以這是一個很大的落差\n218510\t246037\t我這樣說好了啦桃園的落差比較小我這樣說好了齁在有關於收入的查核上這本來就是政府應該要負的責任我相信部長可以同意啦是 這個讓委員讓我一句話補充但是不能只靠報稅的收入因為我們也有看到所謂財稅資料以外的審查機制這個包括股息、利息、車輛或者存款還有親友的資助這個沒有問題\n247637\t247757\t主席\n268271\t295998\t被歸為一般戶裡面有非常多的年輕人他們可能收入他們收入三萬塊上下大家擔心的是依照現在花敬群搞的辦法用身份別他們全部被歸為一般戶收入三萬塊的五萬塊的七萬塊的八萬塊的租金標準是一模一樣對他們產生非常大的擠壓而且租金會上漲但\n296778\t314857\t我今天聽到部長講一句話所以我今天上來質詢我只要一個承諾部長說你們的辦法通過了以後他們現在面臨的租金絕對不會因此而調漲對不對在我們的設計裡面不會因為我們是將整個租金的一個水準往下降\n316559\t334305\t沒有關係部長我選擇相信你因為我知道應該是下禮拜三住宅會議要討論這個辦法主席是你嘛我建議部長您當主席的時候真的好好的再把那個辦法的條文看清楚然後\n335725\t347474\t按照您今天在內政委員會上面所宣誓的原則來處理,這樣部長您可以承諾嗎?我想這個是我們不一貫的一個原則,沒問題。我相信就是說\n350731\t365899\t我知道你的立場可能比較困難一點要你在這個公開的場合去說話去搞那個辦法搞得天怒人怨大家都反彈可能你會比較為難一點但沒有關係我們今天在這邊質詢不是要造成任何人的尷尬\n367079\t367859\t謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢請部長\n","txt":"參委員質詢。\n好 委員黃部長今天其實非常多的委員大家都非常關心依照住宅法第25條我們所訂的社會住宅分級租金收費的辦法我必須要老實跟部長講我剛剛坐在下面聽包括前面我透過轉播的系統在聽您講我必須要老實說您今天講的內容跟我們之前看\n在內政部開會的會議記錄甚至出來的辦法其實不太一致剛我仔細聆聽了您所講的你說大家對於現在內政部規劃要從收入別改成身分別這一件事情您是贊成雙軌的就是你要用身分也可以你要用收入也可以第二個你們所定的這個辦法是天花板\n只要不超過縣市政府要訂的更低用收入別訂更低也沒有問題我有沒有理解錯誤?沒有好但我真的要拜託部長回去再看一下花敬群次長在歷次的會議當中他的發言\n他對於地方政府怎麼說的他對於民間團體怎麼說的以及那個草案具體的內容譬如說他辦法裡面就講了各個縣市政府在現在租約是用收入別譬如說台北、新北、桃園通通都是這個樣子\n他要求說等到租約期滿了以後你就要換回來他現在鎖定的辦法用身分別這個在辦法裡面的白紙黑字是這樣寫的所以我想了很久我想部長應該對這件事情很了解應該不會出現誤論的狀況所以\n我用比較善意的方式解讀不找你你是不是不贊成花敬群那樣的定法我跟委員報告一下應該是說他如果租約如果比如說他比如說像剛剛在講台鐵市他這個收入別他時間如果到3加3之後時間如果到如果他要換軌變成是身分別的話沒有沒有他還要繼續維持收入別那他如果要繼續維持收入別我想這個尊重\n然後中央的補助不會有影響?剛剛我們希望稿其實也有提到就是XL的部分這個中央我們會來支持所以中央會支持?對所以包括了臺北包括了桃園因為我知道蔣萬安市長\n張善政事長都很關心這個事情。不過委員我要跟你報告一下有一個事情也必須要地方政府大家一起來幫忙也比如說在臺北市的確有這個狀況就是那個身份的這個中低收入的這個身份的一個認定的一個問題7乘3是他的一個所得收入居然是比低收入貨者還低但是他實際上有這個身份的只有15%所以這是一個很大的落差\n我這樣說好了啦桃園的落差比較小我這樣說好了齁在有關於收入的查核上這本來就是政府應該要負的責任我相信部長可以同意啦是 這個讓委員讓我一句話補充但是不能只靠報稅的收入因為我們也有看到所謂財稅資料以外的審查機制這個包括股息、利息、車輛或者存款還有親友的資助這個沒有問題\n主席\n被歸為一般戶裡面有非常多的年輕人他們可能收入他們收入三萬塊上下大家擔心的是依照現在花敬群搞的辦法用身份別他們全部被歸為一般戶收入三萬塊的五萬塊的七萬塊的八萬塊的租金標準是一模一樣對他們產生非常大的擠壓而且租金會上漲但\n我今天聽到部長講一句話所以我今天上來質詢我只要一個承諾部長說你們的辦法通過了以後他們現在面臨的租金絕對不會因此而調漲對不對在我們的設計裡面不會因為我們是將整個租金的一個水準往下降\n沒有關係部長我選擇相信你因為我知道應該是下禮拜三住宅會議要討論這個辦法主席是你嘛我建議部長您當主席的時候真的好好的再把那個辦法的條文看清楚然後\n按照您今天在內政委員會上面所宣誓的原則來處理,這樣部長您可以承諾嗎?我想這個是我們不一貫的一個原則,沒問題。我相信就是說\n我知道你的立場可能比較困難一點要你在這個公開的場合去說話去搞那個辦法搞得天怒人怨大家都反彈可能你會比較為難一點但沒有關係我們今天在這邊質詢不是要造成任何人的尷尬\n謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢請部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.389 --> 00:00.409\n參委員質詢。\n\n00:23.543 --> 00:48.596\n好委員黃部長今天其實非常多的委員大家都非常關心依照住宅法第25條我們所訂的社會住宅分級租金收費的辦法我必須要老實跟部長講我剛剛坐在下面聽包括前面我透過轉播的系統在聽您講我必須要老實說您今天講的內容跟我們之前看\n\n00:50.103 --> 01:19.015\n在內政部開會的會議記錄甚至出來的辦法其實不太一致剛我仔細聆聽了您所講的你說大家對於現在內政部規劃要從收入別改成身分別這一件事情您是贊成雙軌的就是你要用身分也可以你要用收入也可以第二個你們所定的這個辦法是天花板\n\n01:20.020 --> 01:37.969\n只要不超過縣市政府要訂的更低用收入別訂更低也沒有問題我有沒有理解錯誤?沒有好但我真的要拜託部長回去再看一下花敬群次長在歷次的會議當中他的發言\n\n01:38.829 --> 01:55.716\n他對於地方政府怎麼說的他對於民間團體怎麼說的以及那個草案具體的內容譬如說他辦法裡面就講了各個縣市政府在現在租約是用收入別譬如說台北、新北、桃園通通都是這個樣子\n\n01:57.777 --> 02:14.729\n他要求說等到租約期滿了以後你就要換回來他現在鎖定的辦法用身分別這個在辦法裡面的白紙黑字是這樣寫的所以我想了很久我想部長應該對這件事情很了解應該不會出現誤論的狀況所以\n\n02:23.544 --> 02:51.158\n我用比較善意的方式解讀不找你你是不是不贊成花敬群那樣的定法我跟委員報告一下應該是說他如果租約如果比如說他比如說像剛剛在講台鐵市他這個收入別他時間如果到3加3之後時間如果到如果他要換軌變成是身分別的話沒有沒有他還要繼續維持收入別那他如果要繼續維持收入別我想這個尊重\n\n02:52.359 --> 03:08.324\n然後中央的補助不會有影響?剛剛我們希望稿其實也有提到就是XL的部分這個中央我們會來支持所以中央會支持?對所以包括了臺北包括了桃園因為我知道蔣萬安市長\n\n03:09.564 --> 03:37.970\n張善政事長都很關心這個事情。不過委員我要跟你報告一下有一個事情也必須要地方政府大家一起來幫忙也比如說在臺北市的確有這個狀況就是那個身份的這個中低收入的這個身份的一個認定的一個問題7乘3是他的一個所得收入居然是比低收入貨者還低但是他實際上有這個身份的只有15%所以這是一個很大的落差\n\n03:38.510 --> 04:06.037\n我這樣說好了啦桃園的落差比較小我這樣說好了齁在有關於收入的查核上這本來就是政府應該要負的責任我相信部長可以同意啦是這個讓委員讓我一句話補充但是不能只靠報稅的收入因為我們也有看到所謂財稅資料以外的審查機制這個包括股息、利息、車輛或者存款還有親友的資助這個沒有問題\n\n04:07.637 --> 04:07.757\n主席\n\n04:28.271 --> 04:55.998\n被歸為一般戶裡面有非常多的年輕人他們可能收入他們收入三萬塊上下大家擔心的是依照現在花敬群搞的辦法用身份別他們全部被歸為一般戶收入三萬塊的五萬塊的七萬塊的八萬塊的租金標準是一模一樣對他們產生非常大的擠壓而且租金會上漲但\n\n04:56.778 --> 05:14.857\n我今天聽到部長講一句話所以我今天上來質詢我只要一個承諾部長說你們的辦法通過了以後他們現在面臨的租金絕對不會因此而調漲對不對在我們的設計裡面不會因為我們是將整個租金的一個水準往下降\n\n05:16.559 --> 05:34.305\n沒有關係部長我選擇相信你因為我知道應該是下禮拜三住宅會議要討論這個辦法主席是你嘛我建議部長您當主席的時候真的好好的再把那個辦法的條文看清楚然後\n\n05:35.725 --> 05:47.474\n按照您今天在內政委員會上面所宣誓的原則來處理,這樣部長您可以承諾嗎?我想這個是我們不一貫的一個原則,沒問題。我相信就是說\n\n05:50.731 --> 06:05.899\n我知道你的立場可能比較困難一點要你在這個公開的場合去說話去搞那個辦法搞得天怒人怨大家都反彈可能你會比較為難一點但沒有關係我們今天在這邊質詢不是要造成任何人的尷尬\n\n06:07.079 --> 06:07.859\n謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢請部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.389,"end":0.409,"text":"參委員質詢。"},{"start":23.543,"end":48.596,"text":"好 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