{"id":150184,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150184","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f19260c4a042ed93b0a52c38239db8676b4ff8ba9b0039caa7a631bcbcd59300ce315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:01:34 - 13:14:36","影片長度":"00:13:02","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部、教育部就「落實職場性別平等及性平三法上路如何落實雇主責任」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、教育部就「完善職場育兒環境及托育人員專業職能、工作倫理及職業道德之培訓策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【3月20日及21日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-7"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":782,"end_time":"2024-03-20T13:14:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T13:01:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1336,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時1分）謝謝美麗的主席，我們先請勞動部自稱沒有背景但是卻很努力認真，靠自己實力升上司長的條平司黃司長。"],["主席：來，黃司長。"],["陳委員瑩：還有好像很久很久還是歷年來都沒有被叫上臺備詢過的法務司司長。"],["主席：保護司？"],["陳委員瑩：法務司司長。"],["主席：是副司長郭彩榕。"],["陳委員瑩：是副司長哦？"],["在場人員：他姓傅。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！他本來是傅副司長，現在是傅司長。"],["主席：你現在要請誰？勞動法務司是不是？"],["陳委員瑩：對。"],["主席：你要請勞動法務司，那就是傅司長，傅司長請。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你現在是正的，不是副的嘛？"],["傅司長慧芝：是正的。"],["陳委員瑩：對，所以是正的傅司長。兩位好，就性別平等工作法修訂以來的實施成效，今天在這邊跟兩位討教一下。首先，本席想要反映一下民眾的疑惑，這部法案其實是在很短的時間就修訂通過，而且法律名稱也有修改，先請教法務司司長，平等法跟工作法有什麼法律上的差別？"],["傅司長慧芝：其實實質內涵是一樣的。"],["陳委員瑩：實質內涵一樣，你這樣講，好像名稱不是很重要。好，我再請教一個問題，除了性別工作平等法以外，是否還有其他的工作法？我在問法務司司長。"],["傅司長慧芝：法案名稱上面有工作法的，目前勞動部只有這一部。"],["陳委員瑩：那全部呢？還有沒有其他的工作法？"],["傅司長慧芝：應該有。"],["陳委員瑩：像是什麼？"],["傅司長慧芝：我可能要查一下。"],["陳委員瑩：你覺得哪裡應該有？"],["傅司長慧芝：國家情報工作法。"],["陳委員瑩：好啦！我幫你查好了，因為我們翻遍了所有的法律，也是只有看到國家情報工作法而已。那法案有沒有修訂第一條的立法精神？你剛剛好像有講……"],["傅司長慧芝：第一條沒有，就是實質上面性別平等，還是一樣。"],["陳委員瑩：立法精神也沒有改嘛！你剛剛也講都是一樣，那我再請教你，為什麼要改名稱？"],["傅司長慧芝：當時在行政院討論法案名稱的時候，是因為教育部叫做性別平等教育法。"],["陳委員瑩：這個我們有猜對，我們想說你們可能是仿效教育部的性別平等教育法，所以改成了工作法。但是你們有沒有注意到這樣一改其實有一點……好，我這樣問好了，你有沒有覺得這樣會亂了法序的問題？有沒有一點亂掉？"],["傅司長慧芝：三部法律在處理的時候，對於大家的適用次序還有適用範圍，當時行政院有做過很嚴謹的討論，所以在第一條的部分，還有第二條的適用範圍，其實都有處理。"],["陳委員瑩：你都講行政院、行政院，但是因為你在勞動部，而且是在法務司，我想行政院也會聽你們的意見嘛！"],["傅司長慧芝：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我想是這樣，我點出有沒有亂了法序的問題，我想部長也是法律人，我們這樣提的時候，部長很聰明，他應該就看得出來問題在哪裡，所以司長，你可以再和部長好好討論一下，不過本席有一個小小的建議，這個法案名稱我們如果把它稱作「職場性別平等法」，是不是更為恰當？大家可以再去討論一下，因為我不知道行政院內部所謂的嚴謹討論是什麼樣的狀態，但是就我們這邊也是嚴謹的討論，然後給予這樣的建議，你們再想想，我看到有人在點頭了，好像還不錯。因為「工作法」，本席是覺得它比較難以凸顯這部法案的重點在於平等，沒有平等而只有強調工作就會讓雇主覺得是一個需要額外應付的工作，對於國家進一步人權保障反而是不利的。","接下來我再請教條平司黃司長，我們看了一下各個條文，其實規範的不只是性別，我認為性傾向更是這部法案應該要被關切的一個重點，同性戀在職場上會不會被歧視，你們有關切過嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：這個部分也是屬於性別歧視的範圍之內，所以就同性之間，如果是因為同性的性別來做歧視或者是性騷擾，這個法其實都有含括。"],["陳委員瑩：這個法怎樣？都有囊括？"],["黃司長維琛：都有含括適用。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我再請教，因為數字會講話啦！你們的性騷擾通報系統有沒有包括性傾向受到歧視的通報？有沒有？也就是說，同性戀的性別平等權益有沒有受到這部工作法的保護？"],["黃司長維琛：在申訴案件的分類上面是有把它列出來，是一個單獨的項次。"],["陳委員瑩：有分類出來。"],["黃司長維琛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：在通報的個案當中，你有沒有看到屬於同性別的性騷擾？"],["黃司長維琛：在我們過往的個案是有的。"],["陳委員瑩：過往的個案。"],["黃司長維琛：對，但是在地方的審議上面來講，以往的規定，大概處理的是性別歧……"],["陳委員瑩：你在幾件裡面看到幾件是這樣的案例？"],["黃司長維琛：比例上，在所有的性別事件裡面，它的比例比較沒有像一般的異性之間，尤其是男性對女性的部分，沒有那麼多。"],["陳委員瑩：好，因為這邊有看到數字嘛！你看，從105年到112年，將近8、9年，快10年的時間，通報是7件哦！你要跟我從7件裡面算比例，我也是很好奇你怎麼算。好，沒關係，你們建立的專家人才資料庫有沒有什麼評選的基準？"],["黃司長維琛：專家人才資料庫大概有四類型的人員，一類是由律師公會來推薦的律師，他有意願的。第二類是地方的性平會，還有就其會裡面已經擔任過的委員，經過地方推薦過來。"],["陳委員瑩：就是縣市府推薦團體代表。"],["黃司長維琛：對，還有一個是縣市府推薦過來的相關NGO團體，他有意願的，還有一個就是就現在已經有的衛福部、教育部的人才庫裡面，撈有意願的人來參訓。"],["陳委員瑩：所以聽起來有意願是一個非常重要的考量點。"],["黃司長維琛：是，因為將來他的資料要放在我們的人才庫裡面讓大家去找。"],["陳委員瑩：好，大家聽到了，意願、意願、意願，那我想要問的是，他們的專業度是不是足以處理同性別在性傾向歧視及性騷擾上面的問題？有這樣的能力，因為我一直聽到你注重他們的意願，但是我都沒有聽到你很注重他們在這方面的能力。從剛剛的統計數據來看，過去通報的7件，這麼多年來7件，你們所謂的專家人才對於這7件的通報處理得怎麼樣？你覺得所有通報的管道都很暢通嗎？畢竟這麼多年來只有7件。"],["黃司長維琛：這個部分我們會加強，也跟委員報告……"],["陳委員瑩：你相信只有7件嗎？還是你……"],["黃司長維琛：我相信實際的數字應該會比這個高。"],["陳委員瑩：那你覺得7件合理嗎？這麼多年來只有7件，你覺得合理嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：7件的話，是因為我們之前設計的制度，包括性騷擾的申訴等等，這些大概讓民眾覺得不放心，沒有出來申訴。"],["陳委員瑩：所以在管道上，你們其實是有意識到一些問題嘛！"],["黃司長維琛：是，所以在今年大概性騷擾三法修正以後就……"],["陳委員瑩：好，我更明確地問你，你們有沒有定期統計，分析通報案例的特性和趨勢？有沒有？"],["黃司長維琛：我們做統計的話，都有做一些分析。"],["陳委員瑩：對，那特性和趨勢你們有分析嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：目前看到的話，在就業歧視的部分還是會有一些，但是大家已經慢慢地意識到……"],["陳委員瑩：所以特性和趨勢，你……"],["黃司長維琛：歧視的部分是比較有改善，至於性騷擾的部分，因為去年以來剛好有一個MeToo的事件，後面會增加。"],["陳委員瑩：我這樣問好了，你有沒有性別平等方面的指標可以顯示勞動部主管這部法案的實施成效？"],["黃司長維琛：相關的部分，目前在我們現有的統計就是各個案件的申訴，申訴的部分和處理的部分。"],["陳委員瑩：那你覺得案例數越多代表越有成效，還是案例數越少越好？"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，它的案例數會有時間和階段性的變化，譬如說三法修正以後，短期間有可能在性騷擾的案件，或者說我們開一個可以收……在外面有外部單位收件的一個事件，它短期會高，但是這個高也代表大家意識出來；可是高過以後，這個高峰應該降下來才是一個正常的情況。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我想是這樣子啦！因為畢竟從105年到112年，將近10年竟然只發生7件，我覺得這個數字是一個非常詭異的數字，我不知道是你們的申訴管道不太暢通，還是你們過去的成效太好，那我提出這樣的質疑。","性別平等的內涵在職場的工作上，本是只有性騷擾跟育嬰停留，這只是最基本的，性傾向的尊重跟教育也應該同時被重視跟宣導，目前本席是比較看不出來勞動部有這樣子的關注，所以這個是我今天提出質詢的目的，我也希望這部法案的施行可以定期發布相關的統計數據，而且讓這些數據可以建立良好的指標，透過這些指標就可以凸顯我們臺灣在性別平等保護的進步，顯示臺灣尊重多元性別的價值。","這個法案不是只有單純去規範雇主或者是職權騷擾的處理而已，但是我最後還是要謝謝勞動部，部長也帶領兩位司長跟其他同仁的努力，希望未來因為有這部法案的施行，可以讓全世界知道我們臺灣在尊重職場性別平等的進步，然後凸顯我們臺灣人權法治的進步與價值。"],["黃司長維琛：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","接下來請楊曜委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-7","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","范雲","李坤城","洪孟楷","李彥秀","吳沛憶","洪申翰","牛煦庭","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳培瑜","陳瑩","楊曜","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":237,"meetingDate":["2024-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部、教育部就「落實職場性別平等及性平三法上路如何落實雇主\n責任」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、教育部就「完善職場育兒環境\n及托育人員專業職能、工作倫理及職業道德之培訓策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131801_00014"}},"transcript":{"id":"150184","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150184","tool":"pyannote","id":"150184-pyannote"},"job_id":"3xouRR7rjljiIQOA","queued_at":"2024-06-01 23:10:24","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 23:12:06","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150184"},{"time":"2024-06-01 23:12:07","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f19260c4a042ed93b0a52c38239db8676b4fe1d6f63d8c2db1b9e5986559e7e11f9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-01 23:12:29","msg":"converting mp4 to 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\"專家人才資料庫大概有四類型的人員一類的話是由律師公會來推薦的律師有意願的第二類的話是地方的性評會還有就期會裡面的已經擔任過的委員經過地方推薦過來還有一個是縣市府推薦過來的相關的NGO團體還有意願的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 459.478, \"end\": 459.718, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 459.718, \"end\": 459.899, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 459.899, \"end\": 460.219, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 460.219, \"end\": 460.579, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"庫\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 460.579, \"end\": 460.679, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 460.679, \"end\": 460.779, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 460.779, \"end\": 460.98, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 460.98, \"end\": 461.44, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 461.44, \"end\": 461.74, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 461.74, \"end\": 462.001, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 462.001, \"end\": 462.801, \"score\": 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\"end\": 775.553, \"score\": 0.589}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"」\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,330 --> 00:00:00,350\n培訓。\n\n2\n00:00:18,930 --> 00:00:40,546\n謝謝美麗的主席我們先請這個勞動部自稱沒有背景但是卻很努力認真靠自己這個實力身上師長的這個調評師黃師長還有好像很久很久還是歷年來都沒有被叫上台被詢過的法務司師長法務司\n\n3\n00:00:45,751 --> 00:01:07,221\n法務司司長是副司長副司長喔對啦他本來是副副司長那現在是副司長勞動的法務司是不是對你要勞動法務司那就是副司長所以你現在是正的不是副的嗎\n\n4\n00:01:09,021 --> 00:01:23,443\n所以是正的副司長兩位好我想今天就這個性別平等工作法修訂以來實施的這個成效我們今天在這邊跟兩位討教一下\n\n5\n00:01:24,684 --> 00:01:44,909\n首先本期想要反映一下民眾的疑惑就是在這部法案其實是在很短的時間就修訂通過了而且法律名稱也有修改先請教法務司司長平等法跟工作法有什麼法律上的差別其實實質內涵是一樣的\n\n6\n00:01:52,844 --> 00:02:18,255\n好十字內一樣所以你這樣講好像名稱不是很重要好那我這樣問好那我再請教一個問題那除了性別工作平等法以外是否還有其他的工作法我在問法務司司長法案名稱上面有工作法的目前勞動部只有這一部那全部呢全部\n\n7\n00:02:21,038 --> 00:02:34,846\n你還沒有知道有沒有其他的工作法應該有像是什麼你覺得應該哪裡有也許國家情報\n\n8\n00:02:36,327 --> 00:03:01,190\n好啦我幫你查好了因為我們也是翻遍了所有的法律也是只有看到這個國家情報工作法而已那法案有沒有修訂這個第一條的這個立法精神你剛剛好像有講就是對第一條沒有啊就是實質上面性別平等還是一樣\n\n9\n00:03:02,931 --> 00:03:28,144\n就是那個立法精神也沒有改嗎你剛剛也講都是一樣那我再請教你那為什麼要改名稱當時在行政院討論法案名稱的時候是因為教育部叫做性別平等教育法這個我們有猜對我們想說可能是你們是仿效這個教育部的那個性別平等教育法所以改成了工作法但是你們有沒有注意到說這樣一改其實就有一點\n\n10\n00:03:30,179 --> 00:03:55,924\n好我這樣問好了你有沒有覺得這個這樣會亂的這個法序的問題有沒有一點亂掉三部法律在處理的時候對於大家的適用次序還有適用範圍當時行政院有做過很嚴謹的討論所以在第一條的那個部分還有第二條的適用範圍其實都有處理對你有講行政院行政院但是因為你在勞動部\n\n11\n00:03:57,785 --> 00:03:58,866\n有無亂法序問題?\n\n12\n00:04:17,945 --> 00:04:35,205\n所以司長你可以再跟部長好好討論一下那本席有一個小小的建議就是說這個法案名稱我們如果把它稱作職場性別平等法是不是更為恰當大家可以去\n\n13\n00:04:36,326 --> 00:05:05,075\n再討論一下吧因為我不知道行政院內部的所謂嚴謹討論是是什麼樣的狀態但是我想就我們這邊也是嚴謹的討論然後給予這樣的建議你們再想想我看到有人在點頭了好像還不錯這個因為工作法本期是覺得說他比較難以凸顯這部法案的重點在於平等那沒有平等\n\n14\n00:05:06,375 --> 00:05:13,517\n而只有強調工作,就會讓雇主覺得是一個需要額外應付的工作,對於國家進步、人權保障反而是不利的。」接下來我再請教調評師黃司長\n\n15\n00:05:27,767 --> 00:05:46,039\n我們看了一下這個各個條文其實規範的他不是不只是性別其實性傾向我認為是更是應該這部法案要被關切的一個重點那同性戀在這個職場上會不會被歧視你們有關切過嗎\n\n16\n00:05:47,623 --> 00:06:03,023\n這個部分的話它是也是屬於我們的性別歧視的範圍之內那所以說同性之間如果是因為同性的那個性別然後來做歧視或者說性騷擾的部分這個法它其實都有含刮這個法都有含刮適用\n\n17\n00:06:05,247 --> 00:06:33,869\n好那我再請教齁因為數字會講話啦那個你們的性騷擾通報系統有沒有包括性傾向受到歧視的通報有沒有也就是說同系列的這個性別平等的權益有沒有在這部法案受到這部工作法的保護在申訴案件的那個那個分類上面是有把它列出來是一個單獨的相冊有分類出來齁是那\n\n18\n00:06:35,219 --> 00:06:48,769\n所以在這個通報的個案當中你有沒有看到有沒有屬於這個同性別的性騷擾呢?在我們過往的個案是有的\n\n19\n00:06:50,463 --> 00:07:12,882\n過往的個案但是他在地方的審議上面來講以往的規定的話他處理的是性別在幾件裡面看到幾件是這樣的案例案例他比例上在所有的性別的事件裡面他的比例是比較沒有像一般的我們異性之間尤其是男性對女性的部分來講沒有那麼多\n\n20\n00:07:13,865 --> 00:07:37,756\n好我等一下會因為這邊有看到數字嘛你看從105年到112年將近這個89年快10年的時間通報是七件喔你要跟我從七件裡面算比例我也是很好奇你怎麼算好沒關係你們建立的這個專家人才資料庫有沒有什麼評選的基準\n\n21\n00:07:39,478 --> 00:07:57,675\n專家人才資料庫大概有四類型的人員一類的話是由律師公會來推薦的律師有意願的第二類的話是地方的性評會還有就期會裡面的已經擔任過的委員經過地方推薦過來還有一個是縣市府推薦過來的相關的NGO團體還有意願的\n\n22\n00:08:02,580 --> 00:08:15,303\n那還有一個話就是有就現在已經有的衛福部、教育部的人才庫裡面然後他有意願的人來參詢所以聽起來有意願是一個非常重要的考量點\n\n23\n00:08:16,457 --> 00:08:42,265\n是,因為將來他的資料要放在我們的人才庫裡面大家聽到了意願意願意願那我想要問的是他們的專業度是不是足以處理同性別在性傾向歧視及性騷擾的這個上面的問題就是說這樣的能力因為我一直聽到你注重他們的意願但是我都沒有聽到你很注重他們的在這方面的能力\n\n24\n00:08:43,507 --> 00:09:04,489\n好所以因為我是從這個剛剛的統計數據要不要回去看一下那個好剛剛那一張就是在所有過去通報的七件這麼多年的七件好你們就是這些這些你們所謂的專家人才處理的對於這七件的這個通報處理的怎麼樣\n\n25\n00:09:06,318 --> 00:09:22,655\n那你覺得說所有通報的管道都很暢通嗎?畢竟這這麼多年來只有7件這個部分的話我們會加強那也跟我們報告那你覺得7件你相信只有7件嗎?我相信實際的數字應該會比這個高那你覺得7件合理嗎?\n\n26\n00:09:24,036 --> 00:09:43,026\n這麼多年來只有七件你覺得合理嗎?七件的話是因為我們之前的這個設計的制度包括性三法的申訴等等那這些的話大概讓民眾覺得不放心沒有出來去申訴所以你在其實就是這個管道上你們其實有意識到有一些問題嗎?\n\n27\n00:09:43,766 --> 00:10:09,099\n是,所以在這個今年大概新校三百……好,那我更明確的問你齁,你們有沒有定期統計分析通報,就是分析通報案例的這個特性跟趨勢,有沒有?我們大概做那統計的部分的話就有做一些分析。對,那特性跟趨勢你們有分析嗎?目前看到的話是在就業歧視的部分還是會有一些,但是已經慢慢的大家意識到……所以特性跟趨勢,你……\n\n28\n00:10:12,847 --> 00:10:38,832\n其事的部分的話是比較有改善那那個性三法的部分因為這去年以來當然有一個MeToo的事件我再問你我這樣問好了那你有沒有性別平等方面的指標可以顯示說勞動部的勞動部主管的這部法案的實施成效相關的部分的話我們目前的統計在現有的統計的話就是各個案件的申訴的這個部分\n\n29\n00:10:39,963 --> 00:11:07,651\n申訴的部分和處理的部分。那你覺得案例數越多是越能代表就是代表越有成效還是說案例數越少越好?報告委員他的案例數的話會有時間和階段性的變化比如說我們這三法修正以後他短期間有可能在性騷擾的案件或者說我們開一個可以收在外面的話有外部單位收件的這樣的一個\n\n30\n00:11:08,491 --> 00:11:30,380\n的這個事件,它短期會高,但是這個高的話也代表大家意識出來,可是這個高過以後這個高峰應該它應該下降下來才是一個正常的事件。好,我想是這樣子啦,因為畢竟從105年到112年全部竟然相近10年只發生7件,我覺得這數字是一個非常詭異的數字。\n\n31\n00:11:31,701 --> 00:11:56,949\n那我是不知道說你們的申訴管道不太暢通還是說你們過去的成效太好那我提出這樣的質疑那性別平等的內涵在職場的這個工作上只是本是只有這個性騷擾跟育嬰停留那這只是最基本的那性傾向的尊重跟教育也應該同時被重視跟宣導\n\n32\n00:11:58,469 --> 00:12:24,110\n勞動部目前本期是比較看不出來說有這樣子的這個關注所以這個是我今天提出質詢的目的那我也希望說這部法案的施行那可以定期發布相關的統計數據然後而且讓這些數據可以建立良好的指標那透過這些指標就可以凸顯我們台灣在性別平等保護的這個進步那成為真正這個顯示台灣尊重多元性別的價值\n\n33\n00:12:25,131 --> 00:12:53,970\n那這個法案不是只有單純說去規範雇主的或者是職權騷擾的這個處理而已那但是我最後我還是要謝謝勞動部這個我們部長也帶領兩位司長跟其他同仁的努力那希望這個未來因為有這部法案的施行也可以讓全世界知道說我們台灣在這個尊重職場性別平等的進步然後凸顯我們台灣人權法制的這個進步\n\n34\n00:12:55,031 --> 00:12:55,553\n跟價值。」\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n330\t350\t培訓。\n18930\t40546\t謝謝美麗的主席我們先請這個勞動部自稱沒有背景但是卻很努力認真靠自己這個實力身上師長的這個調評師黃師長還有好像很久很久還是歷年來都沒有被叫上台被詢過的法務司師長法務司\n45751\t67221\t法務司司長是副司長副司長喔對啦他本來是副副司長那現在是副司長勞動的法務司是不是對你要勞動法務司那就是副司長所以你現在是正的不是副的嗎\n69021\t83443\t所以是正的副司長兩位好我想今天就這個性別平等工作法修訂以來實施的這個成效我們今天在這邊跟兩位討教一下\n84684\t104909\t首先本期想要反映一下民眾的疑惑就是在這部法案其實是在很短的時間就修訂通過了而且法律名稱也有修改先請教法務司司長平等法跟工作法有什麼法律上的差別其實實質內涵是一樣的\n112844\t138255\t好十字內一樣所以你這樣講好像名稱不是很重要好那我這樣問好那我再請教一個問題那除了性別工作平等法以外是否還有其他的工作法我在問法務司司長法案名稱上面有工作法的目前勞動部只有這一部那全部呢全部\n141038\t154846\t你還沒有知道有沒有其他的工作法應該有像是什麼你覺得應該哪裡有也許國家情報\n156327\t181190\t好啦我幫你查好了因為我們也是翻遍了所有的法律也是只有看到這個國家情報工作法而已那法案有沒有修訂這個第一條的這個立法精神你剛剛好像有講就是對第一條沒有啊就是實質上面性別平等還是一樣\n182931\t208144\t就是那個立法精神也沒有改嗎你剛剛也講都是一樣那我再請教你那為什麼要改名稱當時在行政院討論法案名稱的時候是因為教育部叫做性別平等教育法這個我們有猜對我們想說可能是你們是仿效這個教育部的那個性別平等教育法所以改成了工作法但是你們有沒有注意到說這樣一改其實就有一點\n210179\t235924\t好我這樣問好了你有沒有覺得這個這樣會亂的這個法序的問題有沒有一點亂掉三部法律在處理的時候對於大家的適用次序還有適用範圍當時行政院有做過很嚴謹的討論所以在第一條的那個部分還有第二條的適用範圍其實都有處理對你有講行政院行政院但是因為你在勞動部\n237785\t238866\t有無亂法序問題?\n257945\t275205\t所以司長你可以再跟部長好好討論一下那本席有一個小小的建議就是說這個法案名稱我們如果把它稱作職場性別平等法是不是更為恰當大家可以去\n276326\t305075\t再討論一下吧因為我不知道行政院內部的所謂嚴謹討論是是什麼樣的狀態但是我想就我們這邊也是嚴謹的討論然後給予這樣的建議你們再想想我看到有人在點頭了好像還不錯這個因為工作法本期是覺得說他比較難以凸顯這部法案的重點在於平等那沒有平等\n306375\t313517\t而只有強調工作,就會讓雇主覺得是一個需要額外應付的工作,對於國家進步、人權保障反而是不利的。」接下來我再請教調評師黃司長\n327767\t346039\t我們看了一下這個各個條文其實規範的他不是不只是性別其實性傾向我認為是更是應該這部法案要被關切的一個重點那同性戀在這個職場上會不會被歧視你們有關切過嗎\n347623\t363023\t這個部分的話它是也是屬於我們的性別歧視的範圍之內那所以說同性之間如果是因為同性的那個性別然後來做歧視或者說性騷擾的部分這個法它其實都有含刮這個法都有含刮適用\n365247\t393869\t好那我再請教齁因為數字會講話啦那個你們的性騷擾通報系統有沒有包括性傾向受到歧視的通報有沒有也就是說同系列的這個性別平等的權益有沒有在這部法案受到這部工作法的保護在申訴案件的那個那個分類上面是有把它列出來是一個單獨的相冊有分類出來齁是那\n395219\t408769\t所以在這個通報的個案當中你有沒有看到有沒有屬於這個同性別的性騷擾呢?在我們過往的個案是有的\n410463\t432882\t過往的個案但是他在地方的審議上面來講以往的規定的話他處理的是性別在幾件裡面看到幾件是這樣的案例案例他比例上在所有的性別的事件裡面他的比例是比較沒有像一般的我們異性之間尤其是男性對女性的部分來講沒有那麼多\n433865\t457756\t好我等一下會因為這邊有看到數字嘛你看從105年到112年將近這個89年快10年的時間通報是七件喔你要跟我從七件裡面算比例我也是很好奇你怎麼算好沒關係你們建立的這個專家人才資料庫有沒有什麼評選的基準\n459478\t477675\t專家人才資料庫大概有四類型的人員一類的話是由律師公會來推薦的律師有意願的第二類的話是地方的性評會還有就期會裡面的已經擔任過的委員經過地方推薦過來還有一個是縣市府推薦過來的相關的NGO團體還有意願的\n482580\t495303\t那還有一個話就是有就現在已經有的衛福部、教育部的人才庫裡面然後他有意願的人來參詢所以聽起來有意願是一個非常重要的考量點\n496457\t522265\t是,因為將來他的資料要放在我們的人才庫裡面大家聽到了意願意願意願那我想要問的是他們的專業度是不是足以處理同性別在性傾向歧視及性騷擾的這個上面的問題就是說這樣的能力因為我一直聽到你注重他們的意願但是我都沒有聽到你很注重他們的在這方面的能力\n523507\t544489\t好所以因為我是從這個剛剛的統計數據要不要回去看一下那個好剛剛那一張就是在所有過去通報的七件這麼多年的七件好你們就是這些這些你們所謂的專家人才處理的對於這七件的這個通報處理的怎麼樣\n546318\t562655\t那你覺得說所有通報的管道都很暢通嗎?畢竟這這麼多年來只有7件這個部分的話我們會加強那也跟我們報告那你覺得7件你相信只有7件嗎?我相信實際的數字應該會比這個高那你覺得7件合理嗎?\n564036\t583026\t這麼多年來只有七件你覺得合理嗎?七件的話是因為我們之前的這個設計的制度包括性三法的申訴等等那這些的話大概讓民眾覺得不放心沒有出來去申訴所以你在其實就是這個管道上你們其實有意識到有一些問題嗎?\n583766\t609099\t是,所以在這個今年大概新校三百……好,那我更明確的問你齁,你們有沒有定期統計分析通報,就是分析通報案例的這個特性跟趨勢,有沒有?我們大概做那統計的部分的話就有做一些分析。對,那特性跟趨勢你們有分析嗎?目前看到的話是在就業歧視的部分還是會有一些,但是已經慢慢的大家意識到……所以特性跟趨勢,你……\n612847\t638832\t其事的部分的話是比較有改善那那個性三法的部分因為這去年以來當然有一個MeToo的事件我再問你我這樣問好了那你有沒有性別平等方面的指標可以顯示說勞動部的勞動部主管的這部法案的實施成效相關的部分的話我們目前的統計在現有的統計的話就是各個案件的申訴的這個部分\n639963\t667651\t申訴的部分和處理的部分。那你覺得案例數越多是越能代表就是代表越有成效還是說案例數越少越好?報告委員他的案例數的話會有時間和階段性的變化比如說我們這三法修正以後他短期間有可能在性騷擾的案件或者說我們開一個可以收在外面的話有外部單位收件的這樣的一個\n668491\t690380\t的這個事件,它短期會高,但是這個高的話也代表大家意識出來,可是這個高過以後這個高峰應該它應該下降下來才是一個正常的事件。好,我想是這樣子啦,因為畢竟從105年到112年全部竟然相近10年只發生7件,我覺得這數字是一個非常詭異的數字。\n691701\t716949\t那我是不知道說你們的申訴管道不太暢通還是說你們過去的成效太好那我提出這樣的質疑那性別平等的內涵在職場的這個工作上只是本是只有這個性騷擾跟育嬰停留那這只是最基本的那性傾向的尊重跟教育也應該同時被重視跟宣導\n718469\t744110\t勞動部目前本期是比較看不出來說有這樣子的這個關注所以這個是我今天提出質詢的目的那我也希望說這部法案的施行那可以定期發布相關的統計數據然後而且讓這些數據可以建立良好的指標那透過這些指標就可以凸顯我們台灣在性別平等保護的這個進步那成為真正這個顯示台灣尊重多元性別的價值\n745131\t773970\t那這個法案不是只有單純說去規範雇主的或者是職權騷擾的這個處理而已那但是我最後我還是要謝謝勞動部這個我們部長也帶領兩位司長跟其他同仁的努力那希望這個未來因為有這部法案的施行也可以讓全世界知道說我們台灣在這個尊重職場性別平等的進步然後凸顯我們台灣人權法制的這個進步\n775031\t775553\t跟價值。」\n","txt":"培訓。\n謝謝美麗的主席我們先請這個勞動部自稱沒有背景但是卻很努力認真靠自己這個實力身上師長的這個調評師黃師長還有好像很久很久還是歷年來都沒有被叫上台被詢過的法務司師長法務司\n法務司司長是副司長副司長喔對啦他本來是副副司長那現在是副司長勞動的法務司是不是對你要勞動法務司那就是副司長所以你現在是正的不是副的嗎\n所以是正的副司長兩位好我想今天就這個性別平等工作法修訂以來實施的這個成效我們今天在這邊跟兩位討教一下\n首先本期想要反映一下民眾的疑惑就是在這部法案其實是在很短的時間就修訂通過了而且法律名稱也有修改先請教法務司司長平等法跟工作法有什麼法律上的差別其實實質內涵是一樣的\n好十字內一樣所以你這樣講好像名稱不是很重要好那我這樣問好那我再請教一個問題那除了性別工作平等法以外是否還有其他的工作法我在問法務司司長法案名稱上面有工作法的目前勞動部只有這一部那全部呢全部\n你還沒有知道有沒有其他的工作法應該有像是什麼你覺得應該哪裡有也許國家情報\n好啦我幫你查好了因為我們也是翻遍了所有的法律也是只有看到這個國家情報工作法而已那法案有沒有修訂這個第一條的這個立法精神你剛剛好像有講就是對第一條沒有啊就是實質上面性別平等還是一樣\n就是那個立法精神也沒有改嗎你剛剛也講都是一樣那我再請教你那為什麼要改名稱當時在行政院討論法案名稱的時候是因為教育部叫做性別平等教育法這個我們有猜對我們想說可能是你們是仿效這個教育部的那個性別平等教育法所以改成了工作法但是你們有沒有注意到說這樣一改其實就有一點\n好我這樣問好了你有沒有覺得這個這樣會亂的這個法序的問題有沒有一點亂掉三部法律在處理的時候對於大家的適用次序還有適用範圍當時行政院有做過很嚴謹的討論所以在第一條的那個部分還有第二條的適用範圍其實都有處理對你有講行政院行政院但是因為你在勞動部\n有無亂法序問題?\n所以司長你可以再跟部長好好討論一下那本席有一個小小的建議就是說這個法案名稱我們如果把它稱作職場性別平等法是不是更為恰當大家可以去\n再討論一下吧因為我不知道行政院內部的所謂嚴謹討論是是什麼樣的狀態但是我想就我們這邊也是嚴謹的討論然後給予這樣的建議你們再想想我看到有人在點頭了好像還不錯這個因為工作法本期是覺得說他比較難以凸顯這部法案的重點在於平等那沒有平等\n而只有強調工作,就會讓雇主覺得是一個需要額外應付的工作,對於國家進步、人權保障反而是不利的。」接下來我再請教調評師黃司長\n我們看了一下這個各個條文其實規範的他不是不只是性別其實性傾向我認為是更是應該這部法案要被關切的一個重點那同性戀在這個職場上會不會被歧視你們有關切過嗎\n這個部分的話它是也是屬於我們的性別歧視的範圍之內那所以說同性之間如果是因為同性的那個性別然後來做歧視或者說性騷擾的部分這個法它其實都有含刮這個法都有含刮適用\n好那我再請教齁因為數字會講話啦那個你們的性騷擾通報系統有沒有包括性傾向受到歧視的通報有沒有也就是說同系列的這個性別平等的權益有沒有在這部法案受到這部工作法的保護在申訴案件的那個那個分類上面是有把它列出來是一個單獨的相冊有分類出來齁是那\n所以在這個通報的個案當中你有沒有看到有沒有屬於這個同性別的性騷擾呢?在我們過往的個案是有的\n過往的個案但是他在地方的審議上面來講以往的規定的話他處理的是性別在幾件裡面看到幾件是這樣的案例案例他比例上在所有的性別的事件裡面他的比例是比較沒有像一般的我們異性之間尤其是男性對女性的部分來講沒有那麼多\n好我等一下會因為這邊有看到數字嘛你看從105年到112年將近這個89年快10年的時間通報是七件喔你要跟我從七件裡面算比例我也是很好奇你怎麼算好沒關係你們建立的這個專家人才資料庫有沒有什麼評選的基準\n專家人才資料庫大概有四類型的人員一類的話是由律師公會來推薦的律師有意願的第二類的話是地方的性評會還有就期會裡面的已經擔任過的委員經過地方推薦過來還有一個是縣市府推薦過來的相關的NGO團體還有意願的\n那還有一個話就是有就現在已經有的衛福部、教育部的人才庫裡面然後他有意願的人來參詢所以聽起來有意願是一個非常重要的考量點\n是,因為將來他的資料要放在我們的人才庫裡面大家聽到了意願意願意願那我想要問的是他們的專業度是不是足以處理同性別在性傾向歧視及性騷擾的這個上面的問題就是說這樣的能力因為我一直聽到你注重他們的意願但是我都沒有聽到你很注重他們的在這方面的能力\n好所以因為我是從這個剛剛的統計數據要不要回去看一下那個好剛剛那一張就是在所有過去通報的七件這麼多年的七件好你們就是這些這些你們所謂的專家人才處理的對於這七件的這個通報處理的怎麼樣\n那你覺得說所有通報的管道都很暢通嗎?畢竟這這麼多年來只有7件這個部分的話我們會加強那也跟我們報告那你覺得7件你相信只有7件嗎?我相信實際的數字應該會比這個高那你覺得7件合理嗎?\n這麼多年來只有七件你覺得合理嗎?七件的話是因為我們之前的這個設計的制度包括性三法的申訴等等那這些的話大概讓民眾覺得不放心沒有出來去申訴所以你在其實就是這個管道上你們其實有意識到有一些問題嗎?\n是,所以在這個今年大概新校三百……好,那我更明確的問你齁,你們有沒有定期統計分析通報,就是分析通報案例的這個特性跟趨勢,有沒有?我們大概做那統計的部分的話就有做一些分析。對,那特性跟趨勢你們有分析嗎?目前看到的話是在就業歧視的部分還是會有一些,但是已經慢慢的大家意識到……所以特性跟趨勢,你……\n其事的部分的話是比較有改善那那個性三法的部分因為這去年以來當然有一個MeToo的事件我再問你我這樣問好了那你有沒有性別平等方面的指標可以顯示說勞動部的勞動部主管的這部法案的實施成效相關的部分的話我們目前的統計在現有的統計的話就是各個案件的申訴的這個部分\n申訴的部分和處理的部分。那你覺得案例數越多是越能代表就是代表越有成效還是說案例數越少越好?報告委員他的案例數的話會有時間和階段性的變化比如說我們這三法修正以後他短期間有可能在性騷擾的案件或者說我們開一個可以收在外面的話有外部單位收件的這樣的一個\n的這個事件,它短期會高,但是這個高的話也代表大家意識出來,可是這個高過以後這個高峰應該它應該下降下來才是一個正常的事件。好,我想是這樣子啦,因為畢竟從105年到112年全部竟然相近10年只發生7件,我覺得這數字是一個非常詭異的數字。\n那我是不知道說你們的申訴管道不太暢通還是說你們過去的成效太好那我提出這樣的質疑那性別平等的內涵在職場的這個工作上只是本是只有這個性騷擾跟育嬰停留那這只是最基本的那性傾向的尊重跟教育也應該同時被重視跟宣導\n勞動部目前本期是比較看不出來說有這樣子的這個關注所以這個是我今天提出質詢的目的那我也希望說這部法案的施行那可以定期發布相關的統計數據然後而且讓這些數據可以建立良好的指標那透過這些指標就可以凸顯我們台灣在性別平等保護的這個進步那成為真正這個顯示台灣尊重多元性別的價值\n那這個法案不是只有單純說去規範雇主的或者是職權騷擾的這個處理而已那但是我最後我還是要謝謝勞動部這個我們部長也帶領兩位司長跟其他同仁的努力那希望這個未來因為有這部法案的施行也可以讓全世界知道說我們台灣在這個尊重職場性別平等的進步然後凸顯我們台灣人權法制的這個進步\n跟價值。」\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.330 --> 00:00.350\n培訓。\n\n00:18.930 --> 00:40.546\n謝謝美麗的主席我們先請這個勞動部自稱沒有背景但是卻很努力認真靠自己這個實力身上師長的這個調評師黃師長還有好像很久很久還是歷年來都沒有被叫上台被詢過的法務司師長法務司\n\n00:45.751 --> 01:07.221\n法務司司長是副司長副司長喔對啦他本來是副副司長那現在是副司長勞動的法務司是不是對你要勞動法務司那就是副司長所以你現在是正的不是副的嗎\n\n01:09.021 --> 01:23.443\n所以是正的副司長兩位好我想今天就這個性別平等工作法修訂以來實施的這個成效我們今天在這邊跟兩位討教一下\n\n01:24.684 --> 01:44.909\n首先本期想要反映一下民眾的疑惑就是在這部法案其實是在很短的時間就修訂通過了而且法律名稱也有修改先請教法務司司長平等法跟工作法有什麼法律上的差別其實實質內涵是一樣的\n\n01:52.844 --> 02:18.255\n好十字內一樣所以你這樣講好像名稱不是很重要好那我這樣問好那我再請教一個問題那除了性別工作平等法以外是否還有其他的工作法我在問法務司司長法案名稱上面有工作法的目前勞動部只有這一部那全部呢全部\n\n02:21.038 --> 02:34.846\n你還沒有知道有沒有其他的工作法應該有像是什麼你覺得應該哪裡有也許國家情報\n\n02:36.327 --> 03:01.190\n好啦我幫你查好了因為我們也是翻遍了所有的法律也是只有看到這個國家情報工作法而已那法案有沒有修訂這個第一條的這個立法精神你剛剛好像有講就是對第一條沒有啊就是實質上面性別平等還是一樣\n\n03:02.931 --> 03:28.144\n就是那個立法精神也沒有改嗎你剛剛也講都是一樣那我再請教你那為什麼要改名稱當時在行政院討論法案名稱的時候是因為教育部叫做性別平等教育法這個我們有猜對我們想說可能是你們是仿效這個教育部的那個性別平等教育法所以改成了工作法但是你們有沒有注意到說這樣一改其實就有一點\n\n03:30.179 --> 03:55.924\n好我這樣問好了你有沒有覺得這個這樣會亂的這個法序的問題有沒有一點亂掉三部法律在處理的時候對於大家的適用次序還有適用範圍當時行政院有做過很嚴謹的討論所以在第一條的那個部分還有第二條的適用範圍其實都有處理對你有講行政院行政院但是因為你在勞動部\n\n03:57.785 --> 03:58.866\n有無亂法序問題?\n\n04:17.945 --> 04:35.205\n所以司長你可以再跟部長好好討論一下那本席有一個小小的建議就是說這個法案名稱我們如果把它稱作職場性別平等法是不是更為恰當大家可以去\n\n04:36.326 --> 05:05.075\n再討論一下吧因為我不知道行政院內部的所謂嚴謹討論是是什麼樣的狀態但是我想就我們這邊也是嚴謹的討論然後給予這樣的建議你們再想想我看到有人在點頭了好像還不錯這個因為工作法本期是覺得說他比較難以凸顯這部法案的重點在於平等那沒有平等\n\n05:06.375 --> 05:13.517\n而只有強調工作,就會讓雇主覺得是一個需要額外應付的工作,對於國家進步、人權保障反而是不利的。」接下來我再請教調評師黃司長\n\n05:27.767 --> 05:46.039\n我們看了一下這個各個條文其實規範的他不是不只是性別其實性傾向我認為是更是應該這部法案要被關切的一個重點那同性戀在這個職場上會不會被歧視你們有關切過嗎\n\n05:47.623 --> 06:03.023\n這個部分的話它是也是屬於我們的性別歧視的範圍之內那所以說同性之間如果是因為同性的那個性別然後來做歧視或者說性騷擾的部分這個法它其實都有含刮這個法都有含刮適用\n\n06:05.247 --> 06:33.869\n好那我再請教齁因為數字會講話啦那個你們的性騷擾通報系統有沒有包括性傾向受到歧視的通報有沒有也就是說同系列的這個性別平等的權益有沒有在這部法案受到這部工作法的保護在申訴案件的那個那個分類上面是有把它列出來是一個單獨的相冊有分類出來齁是那\n\n06:35.219 --> 06:48.769\n所以在這個通報的個案當中你有沒有看到有沒有屬於這個同性別的性騷擾呢?在我們過往的個案是有的\n\n06:50.463 --> 07:12.882\n過往的個案但是他在地方的審議上面來講以往的規定的話他處理的是性別在幾件裡面看到幾件是這樣的案例案例他比例上在所有的性別的事件裡面他的比例是比較沒有像一般的我們異性之間尤其是男性對女性的部分來講沒有那麼多\n\n07:13.865 --> 07:37.756\n好我等一下會因為這邊有看到數字嘛你看從105年到112年將近這個89年快10年的時間通報是七件喔你要跟我從七件裡面算比例我也是很好奇你怎麼算好沒關係你們建立的這個專家人才資料庫有沒有什麼評選的基準\n\n07:39.478 --> 07:57.675\n專家人才資料庫大概有四類型的人員一類的話是由律師公會來推薦的律師有意願的第二類的話是地方的性評會還有就期會裡面的已經擔任過的委員經過地方推薦過來還有一個是縣市府推薦過來的相關的NGO團體還有意願的\n\n08:02.580 --> 08:15.303\n那還有一個話就是有就現在已經有的衛福部、教育部的人才庫裡面然後他有意願的人來參詢所以聽起來有意願是一個非常重要的考量點\n\n08:16.457 --> 08:42.265\n是,因為將來他的資料要放在我們的人才庫裡面大家聽到了意願意願意願那我想要問的是他們的專業度是不是足以處理同性別在性傾向歧視及性騷擾的這個上面的問題就是說這樣的能力因為我一直聽到你注重他們的意願但是我都沒有聽到你很注重他們的在這方面的能力\n\n08:43.507 --> 09:04.489\n好所以因為我是從這個剛剛的統計數據要不要回去看一下那個好剛剛那一張就是在所有過去通報的七件這麼多年的七件好你們就是這些這些你們所謂的專家人才處理的對於這七件的這個通報處理的怎麼樣\n\n09:06.318 --> 09:22.655\n那你覺得說所有通報的管道都很暢通嗎?畢竟這這麼多年來只有7件這個部分的話我們會加強那也跟我們報告那你覺得7件你相信只有7件嗎?我相信實際的數字應該會比這個高那你覺得7件合理嗎?\n\n09:24.036 --> 09:43.026\n這麼多年來只有七件你覺得合理嗎?七件的話是因為我們之前的這個設計的制度包括性三法的申訴等等那這些的話大概讓民眾覺得不放心沒有出來去申訴所以你在其實就是這個管道上你們其實有意識到有一些問題嗎?\n\n09:43.766 --> 10:09.099\n是,所以在這個今年大概新校三百……好,那我更明確的問你齁,你們有沒有定期統計分析通報,就是分析通報案例的這個特性跟趨勢,有沒有?我們大概做那統計的部分的話就有做一些分析。對,那特性跟趨勢你們有分析嗎?目前看到的話是在就業歧視的部分還是會有一些,但是已經慢慢的大家意識到……所以特性跟趨勢,你……\n\n10:12.847 --> 10:38.832\n其事的部分的話是比較有改善那那個性三法的部分因為這去年以來當然有一個MeToo的事件我再問你我這樣問好了那你有沒有性別平等方面的指標可以顯示說勞動部的勞動部主管的這部法案的實施成效相關的部分的話我們目前的統計在現有的統計的話就是各個案件的申訴的這個部分\n\n10:39.963 --> 11:07.651\n申訴的部分和處理的部分。那你覺得案例數越多是越能代表就是代表越有成效還是說案例數越少越好?報告委員他的案例數的話會有時間和階段性的變化比如說我們這三法修正以後他短期間有可能在性騷擾的案件或者說我們開一個可以收在外面的話有外部單位收件的這樣的一個\n\n11:08.491 --> 11:30.380\n的這個事件,它短期會高,但是這個高的話也代表大家意識出來,可是這個高過以後這個高峰應該它應該下降下來才是一個正常的事件。好,我想是這樣子啦,因為畢竟從105年到112年全部竟然相近10年只發生7件,我覺得這數字是一個非常詭異的數字。\n\n11:31.701 --> 11:56.949\n那我是不知道說你們的申訴管道不太暢通還是說你們過去的成效太好那我提出這樣的質疑那性別平等的內涵在職場的這個工作上只是本是只有這個性騷擾跟育嬰停留那這只是最基本的那性傾向的尊重跟教育也應該同時被重視跟宣導\n\n11:58.469 --> 12:24.110\n勞動部目前本期是比較看不出來說有這樣子的這個關注所以這個是我今天提出質詢的目的那我也希望說這部法案的施行那可以定期發布相關的統計數據然後而且讓這些數據可以建立良好的指標那透過這些指標就可以凸顯我們台灣在性別平等保護的這個進步那成為真正這個顯示台灣尊重多元性別的價值\n\n12:25.131 --> 12:53.970\n那這個法案不是只有單純說去規範雇主的或者是職權騷擾的這個處理而已那但是我最後我還是要謝謝勞動部這個我們部長也帶領兩位司長跟其他同仁的努力那希望這個未來因為有這部法案的施行也可以讓全世界知道說我們台灣在這個尊重職場性別平等的進步然後凸顯我們台灣人權法制的這個進步\n\n12:55.031 --> 12:55.553\n跟價值。」\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.33,"end":0.35,"text":"培訓。"},{"start":18.93,"end":40.546,"text":"謝謝美麗的主席我們先請這個勞動部自稱沒有背景但是卻很努力認真靠自己這個實力身上師長的這個調評師黃師長還有好像很久很久還是歷年來都沒有被叫上台被詢過的法務司師長法務司"},{"start":45.751,"end":67.221,"text":"法務司司長是副司長副司長喔對啦他本來是副副司長那現在是副司長勞動的法務司是不是對你要勞動法務司那就是副司長所以你現在是正的不是副的嗎"},{"start":69.021,"end":83.443,"text":"所以是正的副司長兩位好我想今天就這個性別平等工作法修訂以來實施的這個成效我們今天在這邊跟兩位討教一下"},{"start":84.684,"end":104.909,"text":"首先本期想要反映一下民眾的疑惑就是在這部法案其實是在很短的時間就修訂通過了而且法律名稱也有修改先請教法務司司長平等法跟工作法有什麼法律上的差別其實實質內涵是一樣的"},{"start":112.844,"end":138.255,"text":"好十字內一樣所以你這樣講好像名稱不是很重要好那我這樣問好那我再請教一個問題那除了性別工作平等法以外是否還有其他的工作法我在問法務司司長法案名稱上面有工作法的目前勞動部只有這一部那全部呢全部"},{"start":141.038,"end":154.846,"text":"你還沒有知道有沒有其他的工作法應該有像是什麼你覺得應該哪裡有也許國家情報"},{"start":156.327,"end":181.19,"text":"好啦我幫你查好了因為我們也是翻遍了所有的法律也是只有看到這個國家情報工作法而已那法案有沒有修訂這個第一條的這個立法精神你剛剛好像有講就是對第一條沒有啊就是實質上面性別平等還是一樣"},{"start":182.931,"end":208.144,"text":"就是那個立法精神也沒有改嗎你剛剛也講都是一樣那我再請教你那為什麼要改名稱當時在行政院討論法案名稱的時候是因為教育部叫做性別平等教育法這個我們有猜對我們想說可能是你們是仿效這個教育部的那個性別平等教育法所以改成了工作法但是你們有沒有注意到說這樣一改其實就有一點"},{"start":210.179,"end":235.924,"text":"好我這樣問好了你有沒有覺得這個這樣會亂的這個法序的問題有沒有一點亂掉三部法律在處理的時候對於大家的適用次序還有適用範圍當時行政院有做過很嚴謹的討論所以在第一條的那個部分還有第二條的適用範圍其實都有處理對你有講行政院行政院但是因為你在勞動部"},{"start":237.785,"end":238.866,"text":"有無亂法序問題?"},{"start":257.945,"end":275.205,"text":"所以司長你可以再跟部長好好討論一下那本席有一個小小的建議就是說這個法案名稱我們如果把它稱作職場性別平等法是不是更為恰當大家可以去"},{"start":276.326,"end":305.075,"text":"再討論一下吧因為我不知道行政院內部的所謂嚴謹討論是是什麼樣的狀態但是我想就我們這邊也是嚴謹的討論然後給予這樣的建議你們再想想我看到有人在點頭了好像還不錯這個因為工作法本期是覺得說他比較難以凸顯這部法案的重點在於平等那沒有平等"},{"start":306.375,"end":313.517,"text":"而只有強調工作,就會讓雇主覺得是一個需要額外應付的工作,對於國家進步、人權保障反而是不利的。」接下來我再請教調評師黃司長"},{"start":327.767,"end":346.039,"text":"我們看了一下這個各個條文其實規範的他不是不只是性別其實性傾向我認為是更是應該這部法案要被關切的一個重點那同性戀在這個職場上會不會被歧視你們有關切過嗎"},{"start":347.623,"end":363.023,"text":"這個部分的話它是也是屬於我們的性別歧視的範圍之內那所以說同性之間如果是因為同性的那個性別然後來做歧視或者說性騷擾的部分這個法它其實都有含刮這個法都有含刮適用"},{"start":365.247,"end":393.869,"text":"好那我再請教齁因為數字會講話啦那個你們的性騷擾通報系統有沒有包括性傾向受到歧視的通報有沒有也就是說同系列的這個性別平等的權益有沒有在這部法案受到這部工作法的保護在申訴案件的那個那個分類上面是有把它列出來是一個單獨的相冊有分類出來齁是那"},{"start":395.219,"end":408.769,"text":"所以在這個通報的個案當中你有沒有看到有沒有屬於這個同性別的性騷擾呢?在我們過往的個案是有的"},{"start":410.463,"end":432.882,"text":"過往的個案但是他在地方的審議上面來講以往的規定的話他處理的是性別在幾件裡面看到幾件是這樣的案例案例他比例上在所有的性別的事件裡面他的比例是比較沒有像一般的我們異性之間尤其是男性對女性的部分來講沒有那麼多"},{"start":433.865,"end":457.756,"text":"好我等一下會因為這邊有看到數字嘛你看從105年到112年將近這個89年快10年的時間通報是七件喔你要跟我從七件裡面算比例我也是很好奇你怎麼算好沒關係你們建立的這個專家人才資料庫有沒有什麼評選的基準"},{"start":459.478,"end":477.675,"text":"專家人才資料庫大概有四類型的人員一類的話是由律師公會來推薦的律師有意願的第二類的話是地方的性評會還有就期會裡面的已經擔任過的委員經過地方推薦過來還有一個是縣市府推薦過來的相關的NGO團體還有意願的"},{"start":482.58,"end":495.303,"text":"那還有一個話就是有就現在已經有的衛福部、教育部的人才庫裡面然後他有意願的人來參詢所以聽起來有意願是一個非常重要的考量點"},{"start":496.457,"end":522.265,"text":"是,因為將來他的資料要放在我們的人才庫裡面大家聽到了意願意願意願那我想要問的是他們的專業度是不是足以處理同性別在性傾向歧視及性騷擾的這個上面的問題就是說這樣的能力因為我一直聽到你注重他們的意願但是我都沒有聽到你很注重他們的在這方面的能力"},{"start":523.507,"end":544.489,"text":"好所以因為我是從這個剛剛的統計數據要不要回去看一下那個好剛剛那一張就是在所有過去通報的七件這麼多年的七件好你們就是這些這些你們所謂的專家人才處理的對於這七件的這個通報處理的怎麼樣"},{"start":546.318,"end":562.655,"text":"那你覺得說所有通報的管道都很暢通嗎?畢竟這這麼多年來只有7件這個部分的話我們會加強那也跟我們報告那你覺得7件你相信只有7件嗎?我相信實際的數字應該會比這個高那你覺得7件合理嗎?"},{"start":564.036,"end":583.026,"text":"這麼多年來只有七件你覺得合理嗎?七件的話是因為我們之前的這個設計的制度包括性三法的申訴等等那這些的話大概讓民眾覺得不放心沒有出來去申訴所以你在其實就是這個管道上你們其實有意識到有一些問題嗎?"},{"start":583.766,"end":609.099,"text":"是,所以在這個今年大概新校三百……好,那我更明確的問你齁,你們有沒有定期統計分析通報,就是分析通報案例的這個特性跟趨勢,有沒有?我們大概做那統計的部分的話就有做一些分析。對,那特性跟趨勢你們有分析嗎?目前看到的話是在就業歧視的部分還是會有一些,但是已經慢慢的大家意識到……所以特性跟趨勢,你……"},{"start":612.847,"end":638.832,"text":"其事的部分的話是比較有改善那那個性三法的部分因為這去年以來當然有一個MeToo的事件我再問你我這樣問好了那你有沒有性別平等方面的指標可以顯示說勞動部的勞動部主管的這部法案的實施成效相關的部分的話我們目前的統計在現有的統計的話就是各個案件的申訴的這個部分"},{"start":639.963,"end":667.651,"text":"申訴的部分和處理的部分。那你覺得案例數越多是越能代表就是代表越有成效還是說案例數越少越好?報告委員他的案例數的話會有時間和階段性的變化比如說我們這三法修正以後他短期間有可能在性騷擾的案件或者說我們開一個可以收在外面的話有外部單位收件的這樣的一個"},{"start":668.491,"end":690.38,"text":"的這個事件,它短期會高,但是這個高的話也代表大家意識出來,可是這個高過以後這個高峰應該它應該下降下來才是一個正常的事件。好,我想是這樣子啦,因為畢竟從105年到112年全部竟然相近10年只發生7件,我覺得這數字是一個非常詭異的數字。"},{"start":691.701,"end":716.949,"text":"那我是不知道說你們的申訴管道不太暢通還是說你們過去的成效太好那我提出這樣的質疑那性別平等的內涵在職場的這個工作上只是本是只有這個性騷擾跟育嬰停留那這只是最基本的那性傾向的尊重跟教育也應該同時被重視跟宣導"},{"start":718.469,"end":744.11,"text":"勞動部目前本期是比較看不出來說有這樣子的這個關注所以這個是我今天提出質詢的目的那我也希望說這部法案的施行那可以定期發布相關的統計數據然後而且讓這些數據可以建立良好的指標那透過這些指標就可以凸顯我們台灣在性別平等保護的這個進步那成為真正這個顯示台灣尊重多元性別的價值"},{"start":745.131,"end":773.97,"text":"那這個法案不是只有單純說去規範雇主的或者是職權騷擾的這個處理而已那但是我最後我還是要謝謝勞動部這個我們部長也帶領兩位司長跟其他同仁的努力那希望這個未來因為有這部法案的施行也可以讓全世界知道說我們台灣在這個尊重職場性別平等的進步然後凸顯我們台灣人權法制的這個進步"},{"start":775.031,"end":775.553,"text":"跟價值。」"}]}}}}