{"id":150188,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150188","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192c6080d0f0fe139af753301a1aac7f2e9f8ba9b0039caa7a6f4fac455e67c08e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:34:03 - 09:44:11","影片長度":"00:10:08","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就「國土計畫推動辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-7"},"date":"2024-03-20","duration":608,"end_time":"2024-03-20T09:44:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-20T09:34:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":187,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時34分）謝謝主席。有請部長、署長。"],["主席：請林右昌部長、署長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安。今天是國土計畫推動情形的專案報告，我們就切合主題來談一下這樣的問題，你本來就是唸相關的土地管理應用及都市計畫，你有這樣方面的專業，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：不敢。"],["牛委員煦庭：你也做過地方縣市首長，所以我想由林右昌部長好好在這個地方做政策對話，應該是滿適宜的，我今天不談個案，因為談地方的個案其實會有非常多，講也講不完，今天來談通案及政策溝通的一些細節。有幾個問題要就教部長，就本席在地方的瞭解，國土計畫的推動引發了不小爭議，其中有一個比較大的問題在於書圖不同步，其實110年本席還是議員的時候，我們就有收到桃園市的國土計畫書，那時候就只是講概念，也就是大的方向要怎麼做，大概會有哪一些分類，以及分類的定義等等。","從政府的角度來講，因為當初在推動的時候就知道書圖來不及同步，可是這個事情就會衍生一個問題，我收到了國土計畫書，我知道現在要改用國土計畫法，可是問題是我不知道圖，這樣我沒有辦法跟地方的人做清楚的溝通說明，以至於地方政府在執行政策溝通的時候是沒辦法接地氣的，因為跟地方開說明會或公聽會時，大家問到我家的土地會變什麼，完蛋了！圖還沒有出來，書圖不同步的時候就會導致溝通不充分的問題。","另外一個問題是國土計畫法第十五條第三項規定每五年做一次通盤檢討，但是你在110年就公布書，預計明年才會公布圖，在這樣的情況之下，我們認列通盤檢討的時間點是什麼？書和圖公布之間有4年的時間落差，中間如果土地變更的時候，介面上的銜接就會出現問題。我舉個例子，比如最近要推桃竹苗大矽谷推動方案，會不會影響功能分區繪製作業？這就是書和圖中間有落差，有政策或是別的原因造成的改變。部裡面針對這樣的問題要怎麼樣做溝通？請部長簡單回答一下。"],["林部長右昌：這個其實也很清楚，我剛剛有提到，第一個，過去一開始的時候的確是書圖不同步，第二階段的部分是縣市政府在完成這個書圖，第三階段是圖的部分送到部裡面來做審議……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你也是要做把關跟審查。"],["林部長右昌：剛剛提到的時間點怎麼算，時間點就是從國土的功能分區公布實施之後開始算起5年。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以是圖出來之後5年？"],["林部長右昌：這個圖完成公告之後5年。"],["牛委員煦庭：另外一樣是法規推動和執行的問題，就是其他法規的配套修正，我們現在看不出來有一些進度，所以提醒一下我們政府機關。我舉幾個例子，第一個是農發條例，農發條例裡面提到耕地的定義是指依區域計畫法劃定為特農、一般農、山坡地保育區及森林區之農牧用地，這些用語都來自於過去的區域計畫法，可是現在國土計畫法如果要上路，農發條例後面在做註記登記的時候，其實會造成地方的行政負擔，這些東西的修法。另外，工廠管理輔導法也一樣，第九條規定「……以利用都市計畫工業區、非都市土地編定為丁種建築用地……」，這些也都是用區域計畫法的名詞。還有住宅法第二十八條第二款、第三款提到的非都土地甲種建築用地及乙種建築用地達五百平方公尺以上，非都土地丙種建築用地等等，都是用區域計畫法的法律名詞。","新的國土計畫法明年4月要全部上路，上路的時候萬一其他的法規配套沒有來得及修正，這就會造成法律上衍生適用疑義，影響大家生活品質，這是不太好的。內政部針對其他法規有沒有做通盤的盤整，預計的修法期程是什麼？"],["林部長右昌：是的，內政部當然有針對相關法規進行盤整，國土計畫法相關的子法大概有23項，我們目前已經完成14項，另外還有9項預定是在今年年底前完成，至於其他的配套部分，我請吳署長來補充。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，請吳署長回答一下，我們現在談的是其他的法條。"],["吳署長欣修：關於其他各部會的部分，我們在111年都已經有大致上彙整，請相關各部會開始進行作業，目前就我所知，財政部國產署的內規，就是它有一些內部的行政作業，這些都已經陸陸續續修正完了，它的草案都已經確認，就是要跟我們同步去銜接。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以它等於是要等你們的時間就對了？"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們知道其他各部會也有陸續在作業當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：這就是跟整個國土計畫法修正相關的其他法條，跨部會溝通的修正。"],["吳署長欣修：像你所講的農發條例、工輔法，涉及到7、8個部會……"],["牛委員煦庭：不同部會都要同步好，一樣你做一下彙整，於會後提供資料，讓我們來追蹤，也讓我們瞭解各部會修法的狀況。"],["林部長右昌：沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：再來其實就是今天真正深水區的問題，現在內政部要怎麼去掌握各縣市辦理國土功能分區圖的進度？因為現在看起來只有連江、金門和花蓮已經交了，大部分的縣市政府好像都還沒交，就本席的瞭解，各地縣市政府在溝通的時候都遇到很多問題，現在部裡面有多大的把握可以全盤掌握？"],["林部長右昌：我們每個月都有召開協調會議，所以基本上中央和地方是同步的，資訊是同步的，也掌握他們現在的進度跟狀況。"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天早上看到一則新聞，就是因為我們剛剛提的這個問題，也就是各地方縣市政府可能沒有辦法如期上交相關的「圖」的問題，所以好像內政部、行政院、立法院的討論平臺說可能會延後，有這樣的事嗎？跟部長確認一下。"],["林部長右昌：我想地方各種聲音都有，這樣子說要延後的聲音也不只是現在提，其實在很久以前也都提過，不過我們還是依法照這個期程在進行，也繼續努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講繼續努力有點模糊，到底會不會照原定期程？還是如果真的有狀況的話，你有一些延後的配套？我覺得今天把話講清楚比較重要。"],["林部長右昌：基本上因為這個一定要跟地方政府來合作，所以我們也要跟地方政府做進一步的討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以還有進一步討論的必要就對了？"],["林部長右昌：我們現在當然也聽到許多的問題，也會正視，不過目前整個的協調機制還有所有的進度，基本上都在進行當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：什麼時候可以確定？因為現在既然有新聞出來說可能有延後的狀況，我覺得真的如果溝通還沒有完善，延後也不是什麼大不了的事情啦！但至少這東西要完善，因為所有東西都要層層溝通，你就延後，多一點時間討論，大家可能放心一點，什麼時候可以確定它會不會延後？部長心裡有數嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我想這部分最重要的是大家要有一些共識，各種聲音現在都有。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以目前還沒有進入凝聚共識的階段就對了？"],["林部長右昌：目前還沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒關係，我想這就是我們今天專案報告的目的，用這個時間，我們把中間溝通會遇到的各種問題，大部分是政策工作的通案問題，跟大家講。","最後一點點時間就談一下，這一樣是在地方遇到的困境，過去在非都的情況下，你看乙建、丁建、農牧用地，這個理論上以前都是叫做鄉村區的一個概念，現在鄉村區，你基於國土計畫要整併相關的土地，要做有效的應用，也要讓土地的劃設更容易管理對不對？我想這是國土計畫法推動的初衷，當然要在這個地方做一些細微的調整，你如果只是換了名詞，然後本質上它沒有用，那叫換湯不換藥，就是白搞了對不對？","所以你要去做相對土地的整合跟應用，可是整合跟應用，比如說像這樣鄉村區裡面的非建築用地，就是它本來是屬於農牧用地，當它包在鄉村區的建築用地裡面的時候，從縣市政府規劃相關圖的版本的時候，我當然是做整併嘛，可能是農四，可能是城二之一、城三嘛，類似這樣去做整併。可是整併的問題就來啦，以前非都處理這樣事情時，就是農地變成可以蓋建築的時候我有回饋機制嘛，讓圖符合平均地權這樣的精神，但現在的國土計畫法中的狀況來講，是沒有回饋機制的，現在大家怎麼辦呢？我如果這樣劃設好像圖利這些土地的地主一樣，如果我不這樣做又失去了國土計畫法的精神。請問部裡面怎麼樣解決像這樣子的回饋機制的問題……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，這的確是一般縣市政府都會遇到的普遍性的問題，就包夾在中間的。過去非都的時代，它是習慣用零星變更，但其實中間還會卡到像農發條例的認定問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！"],["吳署長欣修：所以往往在這過程當中，除非它認定為畸零地，否則……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在講就是畸零地的問題啊！"],["吳署長欣修：它很難被併進來，所以在國土計畫裡面，它反而是允許用鄉村地區整體規劃去做適宜性的分析，才確認它以後是可以來申請的。第二個，回饋的機制也會有，所以我才跟委員報告，其實進到國土計畫的範圍，它還是比較有彈性可以去做，不會像過去走的時候如遇到農發條例的限制，直接這個案子就停掉了，是這個概念。"],["牛委員煦庭：我想這都是一些還沒有溝通完畢的狀況，不管是跟縣市政府的溝通也好，這些細節政策配套也好，或者是其他法條的配套，其實好像都還沒有一個像樣的整合進度。所以我今天想跟部長做一下政策對話，如果它還需要花時間整理，是不是早一點、明快地講，也許我們有延後討論的必要，或者如果要如期上路，那這中間的時間如何來安排，讓這些問題可以有效地處理，這請部長再提供一個完整的說明，好嗎？"],["林部長右昌：好，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["主席：好，謝謝牛煦庭委員、謝謝部長、謝謝署長。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭代）：接下來有請許宇甄委員提出質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","蘇巧慧","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃仁","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","黃國昌","林淑芬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","黃健豪","麥玉珍","林德福","陳俊宇","劉建國","王鴻薇","張啓楷"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2024-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就「國土計畫推動辦理情形」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131601_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"150188","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150188","tool":"pyannote","id":"150188-pyannote"},"job_id":"0CwXGuGVnjYXnkZ9","queued_at":"2024-06-01 23:07:39","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 23:08:32","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150188"},{"time":"2024-06-01 23:08:33","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192c6080d0f0fe139af753301a1aac7f2e9e1d6f63d8c2db1b93bf7720ea16dc3525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-01 23:08:49","msg":"converting mp4 to 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\"也就是說其實在110年那時候本期來做議員的時候其實我們就有收到桃園市的國土計畫書啦但是就只是講概念也就是說我們大的方向是怎麼來做大概會有哪一些的分類分類一些定義或什麼東西的那當然嘛就是從政府的角度來講因為當初在推動的時候你就知道書圖來不及同步嘛可是這個事情就會衍生一個問題衍生什麼問題就是說我收到了國土計畫書我知道現在要改用國土計畫法可是問題是我不知道圖啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 59.782, \"end\": 59.882, \"score\": 0.66}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 59.882, \"end\": 60.082, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 60.082, \"end\": 60.402, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 60.402, \"end\": 60.823, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 60.823, \"end\": 61.543, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 61.543, \"end\": 61.703, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 61.703, \"end\": 61.803, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 61.803, \"end\": 61.943, \"score\": 0.545}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 61.943, \"end\": 62.043, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 77.59, \"end\": 77.67, \"score\": 0.625}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 77.67, \"end\": 78.19, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 78.19, \"end\": 78.29, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 78.29, \"end\": 78.37, \"score\": 0.601}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 78.37, \"end\": 79.111, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"衍\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 79.111, \"end\": 79.211, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 79.211, \"end\": 79.791, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"衍\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 79.791, \"end\": 79.911, \"score\": 0.675}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 79.911, \"end\": 80.391, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 80.391, \"end\": 80.511, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 80.511, \"end\": 80.932, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 83.493, \"end\": 84.013, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 84.013, \"end\": 84.493, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 84.493, \"end\": 84.573, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 84.573, \"end\": 84.933, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 84.933, \"end\": 85.053, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 85.053, \"end\": 85.213, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 85.213, \"end\": 85.314, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 85.314, \"end\": 85.394, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 85.394, \"end\": 85.474, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"圖\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 85.474, \"end\": 85.494, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 86.774, \"end\": 115.608, \"text\": \"這個東西我沒有辦法跟地方的這個人做清楚的溝通的說明以至於地方政府在執行政策溝通的時候他是沒有辦法接地氣的因為你跟地方比如說開說明會就公聽會然後大家一問說那所以我家土地變什麼完蛋了我土還沒有出來那其實這個書圖不同步的時候就會導致溝通不充分的問題那現在另外一個問題是這個國土計畫法15條第三項有講說每5年做一次通盤檢討那你110年就公佈書但是預計是明年才會公佈圖嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 86.774, \"end\": 86.894, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 86.894, \"end\": 86.994, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 86.994, \"end\": 87.094, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 87.094, \"end\": 87.294, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 87.294, \"end\": 87.455, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 87.455, \"end\": 87.875, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 87.875, \"end\": 87.995, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 87.995, \"end\": 88.155, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 88.155, \"end\": 88.675, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 606.325, \"end\": 607.286, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"辛\", \"start\": 607.286, \"end\": 607.426, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"苦\", \"start\": 607.426, \"end\": 607.526, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 607.526, \"end\": 607.546, \"score\": 0.98}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,503 --> 00:00:00,784\n請林佑川部長請署長\n\n2\n00:00:17,220 --> 00:00:32,590\n市長早安今天是這個國土計畫推動情形的專案報告當然我們就切合主題來談一下這樣的問題你應該是相關這個本來就是念這部分的土地管理應用跟都市計畫你有這樣方面的專業對不對不敢\n\n3\n00:00:33,050 --> 00:00:59,142\n然後也做過地方縣市首長所以我想由林永昌部長來好好來跟這個地方做政策對話應該是蠻適宜的今天不談個案因為這個東西下去談地方的個案其實會有非常非常多講一講不完今天談這個通案跟政策溝通的一些細節有幾個問題要就教這個部長就本席在地方的了解這個國土計畫的推動引發了不小的爭議其中有一個比較大的問題在於第一個問題叫做書圖不同步\n\n4\n00:00:59,782 --> 00:01:25,494\n也就是說其實在110年那時候本期來做議員的時候其實我們就有收到桃園市的國土計畫書啦但是就只是講概念也就是說我們大的方向是怎麼來做大概會有哪一些的分類分類一些定義或什麼東西的那當然嘛就是從政府的角度來講因為當初在推動的時候你就知道書圖來不及同步嘛可是這個事情就會衍生一個問題衍生什麼問題就是說我收到了國土計畫書我知道現在要改用國土計畫法可是問題是我不知道圖啊\n\n5\n00:01:26,774 --> 00:01:55,608\n這個東西我沒有辦法跟地方的這個人做清楚的溝通的說明以至於地方政府在執行政策溝通的時候他是沒有辦法接地氣的因為你跟地方比如說開說明會就公聽會然後大家一問說那所以我家土地變什麼完蛋了我土還沒有出來那其實這個書圖不同步的時候就會導致溝通不充分的問題那現在另外一個問題是這個國土計畫法15條第三項有講說每5年做一次通盤檢討那你110年就公佈書但是預計是明年才會公佈圖嘛\n\n6\n00:01:56,368 --> 00:01:56,908\n請部長簡單回答一下,謝謝。\n\n7\n00:02:24,062 --> 00:02:50,917\n我想這個其實也蠻就是說很清楚剛剛在提到第一個就是過去一開始的時候的確是屬土不同步那第二個是第二階段的部分大概是縣市政府在完成這個屬土那第三階段土的部分到布裡面來對你也是要做個把關跟審查那剛剛在提到的這個時間點怎麼算時間點就是從這個國土的功能分區公佈實施之後開始算起5年\n\n8\n00:02:52,133 --> 00:03:08,981\n所以是說圖出來之後才5年?是,所以說這個圖完成公告之後5年那另外一個問題就一樣是這個法規在推動跟執行的時候問題叫做其他法規的配套修正我們現在看不出來有一些進度這是要提醒一下我們的政府機關\n\n9\n00:03:09,741 --> 00:03:32,374\n比如說舉幾個例子第二條農發條例農發條例裡面有寫耕地的定義叫一區域計畫法劃定為特農、一般農、山坡地保育區及森林區的農牧用地這些用語都來自於過去的區域計畫法可是你現在國土計畫法如果要上路那農發條例這個東西你後面在做註記登記的時候其實會造成地方的行政負擔那這個東西的修法另外工廠管理負擔法也一樣第9條講\n\n10\n00:03:33,294 --> 00:03:49,370\n利用都市計畫工業區非都市土地編定為丁種建築用地這個也都是用區域計畫法的名詞還有住宅法28條第二款第三款非都土地甲種建築用地、乙種建築用地達500平方公尺以上非都土地丙種建築用地等等這個都是用區域計畫法的法律名詞\n\n11\n00:03:50,111 --> 00:04:05,469\n那你現在新的國土計畫法你講明年4月要全部上路那上路的時候你萬一其他的東西配套沒有來得及修正那這個東西造作法律上衍生適用意義影響大家生活品質我想這是不太好的那內政部針對這個其他法規你有沒有做通盤的盤整那預計的修法的期程是什麼\n\n12\n00:04:06,070 --> 00:04:33,323\n是的：內政部當然也有針對相關法規有進行判證：國土計畫法相關的執法大概有23項：那我們目前已經完成14項：另外還有9項預定是在今年年底前完成：那至於其他的配套部分我請吳署長來做補充好署長回答一下因為我們現在談的是其他的法條嘛對就是其他各部會的部分我們在111年都已經有大致上彙整請各部會相關開始進行作業\n\n13\n00:04:33,983 --> 00:04:47,678\n那我目前已知道大概財政部國產署的這個內規齁就他有一些內部的行政作業這些他都已經陸陸續續已經修正完了那但是他有草案都已經確認就要跟我們同步去先所以他等你們的時間就對了\n\n14\n00:04:49,700 --> 00:05:10,176\n對,對,那其他各部會我們知道也有陸續在作業當中好,這就是你那個相關跟你整個國土計畫法修正相關的這個其他的法條,跨部會統統的修正像你所講的農法條例啦、工夫法對,這個跟不同部會涉及到七八個部會都會對,那個要同步好,那一樣你做一下會診,會有提供資料好不好,那我們來追蹤那也要我們去了解這個各部會修法的狀況好,沒問題\n\n15\n00:05:11,237 --> 00:05:33,024\n好再來一個問題是就是其實是真正今天深水區的問題了嗎你現在內政部要怎麼去掌握各縣市辦理國土功能分區圖的進度啊因為現在看起來只有這個連江金門跟花蓮已經交了嘛大部分的縣市政府好像都還沒交那就本期的了解其實各地縣政府在溝通的時候都遇到很多問題啊那現在部裡面有多大的把握你可以全盤掌握\n\n16\n00:05:33,804 --> 00:06:01,707\n我們其實每個月都有召開這個協調的一個會議所以基本上中央跟地方是同步的資訊是同步也掌握他們現在的進度跟狀況我今天早上看到一則新聞他講說這個就是因為我們剛剛提的這個問題也就是各地方縣市政府沒有辦法可能沒有辦法如期上交相關的這個圖的問題所以好像內政部行政院立法院的討論平台說可能會延後有這樣的事嗎\n\n17\n00:06:02,307 --> 00:06:29,890\n跟部長確認一下我想這個地方各種聲音都有那這樣子說要延後的一個聲音也不只是現在提其實在很久以前其實也都提過不過我們還是照依法照這個期程在進行那也繼續努力那你講繼續努力有點模糊到底會不會照原定期程還是說如果真的有狀況的話你有一些延後的配套我覺得今天把話講清楚比較重要啦我們基本上因為這個一定要跟地方政府來做合作所以我們也要跟地方政府來做進一步的一個討論\n\n18\n00:06:31,314 --> 00:06:59,846\n所以還有進一步討論的必要就對了我們現在當然也聽到許多的一個問題我們也會正式不過目前整個的一個協調機制還有所有的進度基本上都在進行當中那什麼時候可以確定因為現在既然新聞有出來說可能有延後的狀況我覺得真的如果溝通還沒有完善延後也不是什麼大不了的事情但至少這東西要完善因為所有東西都要層層溝通你的延後多一點時間討論那大家可能放心一點什麼時候可以確定說它會不會延後\n\n19\n00:07:01,006 --> 00:07:25,249\n這部長心裡有數嗎?我想這部份最重要是大家要有一些共識那各種聲音現在都有所以目前還沒有凝聚共識的階段就對了現在目前還沒有好沒關係我想這就是我們今天專案報告的目的今天用這個時間我們把這個中間溝通遇到的各種問題大部分是政策工作的通案問題跟大家講就最後一點點時間就談一下這個這一樣是地方在遇到這個問題的困境\n\n20\n00:07:25,589 --> 00:07:41,284\n就是說過去在非都的非都的情況下來那就是你看以建丁建嘛農牧用地那這個理論上都是以前叫鄉村區的一個概念那現在鄉村區你基於國土計畫要整併相關的土地要做有效的應用也要讓這個土地的這個這個畫色\n\n21\n00:07:43,106 --> 00:07:43,126\n獲得獎項\n\n22\n00:08:01,019 --> 00:08:23,193\n非建築用地本來是屬於農牧用地但他包在鄉村區的建築用地裡面的時候從縣政府規劃這個規劃這個相關的圖的版本的時候我當然是做整併嘛可能是農事可能是乘二之一乘三嘛可能類似這樣去做整併可是整併的問題就來了以前非都處理這樣的事情就是農地變成可以蓋建築的時候我有回饋機制嘛\n\n23\n00:08:23,573 --> 00:08:23,593\n曾偉\n\n24\n00:08:48,032 --> 00:08:48,653\n主席\n\n25\n00:09:07,789 --> 00:09:22,150\n除非他認定為麒麟地否則他很難被併進來所以在國土計畫裡面他反而是允許用鄉村地區整體規劃去整體做適宜性的分析那才確認他以後是可以來申請的\n\n26\n00:09:23,031 --> 00:09:24,533\n我想這都是一些還沒有溝通完畢的一個狀況吧\n\n27\n00:09:40,168 --> 00:10:07,546\n不管是跟縣市政府的溝通也好這些細節政策配套也好或者是其他法條的配套其實好像都還沒有像樣的一個整合進度所以我想今天跟部長做一下政策對話所以如果他還需要花時間整理那是不是早一點明快一點講也許我們要有延後討論的必要那或者是說如果要如期上路那這中間的時間來如何來安排讓這些問題可以有效的處理這位部長請部長再要提供一個完整的說明好不好好沒問題好謝謝辛苦了\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n503\t784\t請林佑川部長請署長\n17220\t32590\t市長早安今天是這個國土計畫推動情形的專案報告當然我們就切合主題來談一下這樣的問題你應該是相關這個本來就是念這部分的土地管理應用跟都市計畫你有這樣方面的專業對不對不敢\n33050\t59142\t然後也做過地方縣市首長所以我想由林永昌部長來好好來跟這個地方做政策對話應該是蠻適宜的今天不談個案因為這個東西下去談地方的個案其實會有非常非常多講一講不完今天談這個通案跟政策溝通的一些細節有幾個問題要就教這個部長就本席在地方的了解這個國土計畫的推動引發了不小的爭議其中有一個比較大的問題在於第一個問題叫做書圖不同步\n59782\t85494\t也就是說其實在110年那時候本期來做議員的時候其實我們就有收到桃園市的國土計畫書啦但是就只是講概念也就是說我們大的方向是怎麼來做大概會有哪一些的分類分類一些定義或什麼東西的那當然嘛就是從政府的角度來講因為當初在推動的時候你就知道書圖來不及同步嘛可是這個事情就會衍生一個問題衍生什麼問題就是說我收到了國土計畫書我知道現在要改用國土計畫法可是問題是我不知道圖啊\n86774\t115608\t這個東西我沒有辦法跟地方的這個人做清楚的溝通的說明以至於地方政府在執行政策溝通的時候他是沒有辦法接地氣的因為你跟地方比如說開說明會就公聽會然後大家一問說那所以我家土地變什麼完蛋了我土還沒有出來那其實這個書圖不同步的時候就會導致溝通不充分的問題那現在另外一個問題是這個國土計畫法15條第三項有講說每5年做一次通盤檢討那你110年就公佈書但是預計是明年才會公佈圖嘛\n116368\t116908\t請部長簡單回答一下,謝謝。\n144062\t170917\t我想這個其實也蠻就是說很清楚剛剛在提到第一個就是過去一開始的時候的確是屬土不同步那第二個是第二階段的部分大概是縣市政府在完成這個屬土那第三階段土的部分到布裡面來對你也是要做個把關跟審查那剛剛在提到的這個時間點怎麼算時間點就是從這個國土的功能分區公佈實施之後開始算起5年\n172133\t188981\t所以是說圖出來之後才5年?是,所以說這個圖完成公告之後5年那另外一個問題就一樣是這個法規在推動跟執行的時候問題叫做其他法規的配套修正我們現在看不出來有一些進度這是要提醒一下我們的政府機關\n189741\t212374\t比如說舉幾個例子第二條農發條例農發條例裡面有寫耕地的定義叫一區域計畫法劃定為特農、一般農、山坡地保育區及森林區的農牧用地這些用語都來自於過去的區域計畫法可是你現在國土計畫法如果要上路那農發條例這個東西你後面在做註記登記的時候其實會造成地方的行政負擔那這個東西的修法另外工廠管理負擔法也一樣第9條講\n213294\t229370\t利用都市計畫工業區非都市土地編定為丁種建築用地這個也都是用區域計畫法的名詞還有住宅法28條第二款第三款非都土地甲種建築用地、乙種建築用地達500平方公尺以上非都土地丙種建築用地等等這個都是用區域計畫法的法律名詞\n230111\t245469\t那你現在新的國土計畫法你講明年4月要全部上路那上路的時候你萬一其他的東西配套沒有來得及修正那這個東西造作法律上衍生適用意義影響大家生活品質我想這是不太好的那內政部針對這個其他法規你有沒有做通盤的盤整那預計的修法的期程是什麼\n246070\t273323\t是的：內政部當然也有針對相關法規有進行判證：國土計畫法相關的執法大概有23項：那我們目前已經完成14項：另外還有9項預定是在今年年底前完成：那至於其他的配套部分我請吳署長來做補充好 署長回答一下因為我們現在談的是其他的法條嘛對 就是其他各部會的部分我們在111年都已經有大致上彙整請各部會相關開始進行作業\n273983\t287678\t那我目前已知道大概財政部國產署的這個內規齁就他有一些內部的行政作業這些他都已經陸陸續續已經修正完了那但是他有草案都已經確認就要跟我們同步去先所以他等你們的時間就對了\n289700\t310176\t對,對,那其他各部會我們知道也有陸續在作業當中好,這就是你那個相關跟你整個國土計畫法修正相關的這個其他的法條,跨部會統統的修正像你所講的農法條例啦、工夫法對,這個跟不同部會涉及到七八個部會都會對,那個要同步好,那一樣你做一下會診,會有提供資料好不好,那我們來追蹤那也要我們去了解這個各部會修法的狀況好,沒問題\n311237\t333024\t好再來一個問題是就是其實是真正今天深水區的問題了嗎你現在內政部要怎麼去掌握各縣市辦理國土功能分區圖的進度啊因為現在看起來只有這個連江金門跟花蓮已經交了嘛大部分的縣市政府好像都還沒交那就本期的了解其實各地縣政府在溝通的時候都遇到很多問題啊那現在部裡面有多大的把握你可以全盤掌握\n333804\t361707\t我們其實每個月都有召開這個協調的一個會議所以基本上中央跟地方是同步的資訊是同步也掌握他們現在的進度跟狀況我今天早上看到一則新聞他講說這個就是因為我們剛剛提的這個問題也就是各地方縣市政府沒有辦法可能沒有辦法如期上交相關的這個圖的問題所以好像內政部行政院立法院的討論平台說可能會延後有這樣的事嗎\n362307\t389890\t跟部長確認一下我想這個地方各種聲音都有那這樣子說要延後的一個聲音也不只是現在提其實在很久以前其實也都提過不過我們還是照依法照這個期程在進行那也繼續努力那你講繼續努力有點模糊到底會不會照原定期程還是說如果真的有狀況的話你有一些延後的配套我覺得今天把話講清楚比較重要啦我們基本上因為這個一定要跟地方政府來做合作所以我們也要跟地方政府來做進一步的一個討論\n391314\t419846\t所以還有進一步討論的必要就對了我們現在當然也聽到許多的一個問題我們也會正式不過目前整個的一個協調機制還有所有的進度基本上都在進行當中那什麼時候可以確定因為現在既然新聞有出來說可能有延後的狀況我覺得真的如果溝通還沒有完善延後也不是什麼大不了的事情但至少這東西要完善因為所有東西都要層層溝通你的延後多一點時間討論那大家可能放心一點什麼時候可以確定說它會不會延後\n421006\t445249\t這部長心裡有數嗎?我想這部份最重要是大家要有一些共識那各種聲音現在都有所以目前還沒有凝聚共識的階段就對了現在目前還沒有好沒關係我想這就是我們今天專案報告的目的今天用這個時間我們把這個中間溝通遇到的各種問題大部分是政策工作的通案問題跟大家講就最後一點點時間就談一下這個這一樣是地方在遇到這個問題的困境\n445589\t461284\t就是說過去在非都的非都的情況下來那就是你看以建丁建嘛農牧用地那這個理論上都是以前叫鄉村區的一個概念那現在鄉村區你基於國土計畫要整併相關的土地要做有效的應用也要讓這個土地的這個這個畫色\n463106\t463126\t獲得獎項\n481019\t503193\t非建築用地本來是屬於農牧用地但他包在鄉村區的建築用地裡面的時候從縣政府規劃這個規劃這個相關的圖的版本的時候我當然是做整併嘛可能是農事可能是乘二之一乘三嘛可能類似這樣去做整併可是整併的問題就來了以前非都處理這樣的事情就是農地變成可以蓋建築的時候我有回饋機制嘛\n503573\t503593\t曾偉\n528032\t528653\t主席\n547789\t562150\t除非他認定為麒麟地否則他很難被併進來所以在國土計畫裡面他反而是允許用鄉村地區整體規劃去整體做適宜性的分析那才確認他以後是可以來申請的\n563031\t564533\t我想這都是一些還沒有溝通完畢的一個狀況吧\n580168\t607546\t不管是跟縣市政府的溝通也好這些細節政策配套也好或者是其他法條的配套其實好像都還沒有像樣的一個整合進度所以我想今天跟部長做一下政策對話所以如果他還需要花時間整理那是不是早一點明快一點講也許我們要有延後討論的必要那或者是說如果要如期上路那這中間的時間來如何來安排讓這些問題可以有效的處理這位部長請部長再要提供一個完整的說明好不好好沒問題好謝謝辛苦了\n","txt":"請林佑川部長請署長\n市長早安今天是這個國土計畫推動情形的專案報告當然我們就切合主題來談一下這樣的問題你應該是相關這個本來就是念這部分的土地管理應用跟都市計畫你有這樣方面的專業對不對不敢\n然後也做過地方縣市首長所以我想由林永昌部長來好好來跟這個地方做政策對話應該是蠻適宜的今天不談個案因為這個東西下去談地方的個案其實會有非常非常多講一講不完今天談這個通案跟政策溝通的一些細節有幾個問題要就教這個部長就本席在地方的了解這個國土計畫的推動引發了不小的爭議其中有一個比較大的問題在於第一個問題叫做書圖不同步\n也就是說其實在110年那時候本期來做議員的時候其實我們就有收到桃園市的國土計畫書啦但是就只是講概念也就是說我們大的方向是怎麼來做大概會有哪一些的分類分類一些定義或什麼東西的那當然嘛就是從政府的角度來講因為當初在推動的時候你就知道書圖來不及同步嘛可是這個事情就會衍生一個問題衍生什麼問題就是說我收到了國土計畫書我知道現在要改用國土計畫法可是問題是我不知道圖啊\n這個東西我沒有辦法跟地方的這個人做清楚的溝通的說明以至於地方政府在執行政策溝通的時候他是沒有辦法接地氣的因為你跟地方比如說開說明會就公聽會然後大家一問說那所以我家土地變什麼完蛋了我土還沒有出來那其實這個書圖不同步的時候就會導致溝通不充分的問題那現在另外一個問題是這個國土計畫法15條第三項有講說每5年做一次通盤檢討那你110年就公佈書但是預計是明年才會公佈圖嘛\n請部長簡單回答一下,謝謝。\n我想這個其實也蠻就是說很清楚剛剛在提到第一個就是過去一開始的時候的確是屬土不同步那第二個是第二階段的部分大概是縣市政府在完成這個屬土那第三階段土的部分到布裡面來對你也是要做個把關跟審查那剛剛在提到的這個時間點怎麼算時間點就是從這個國土的功能分區公佈實施之後開始算起5年\n所以是說圖出來之後才5年?是,所以說這個圖完成公告之後5年那另外一個問題就一樣是這個法規在推動跟執行的時候問題叫做其他法規的配套修正我們現在看不出來有一些進度這是要提醒一下我們的政府機關\n比如說舉幾個例子第二條農發條例農發條例裡面有寫耕地的定義叫一區域計畫法劃定為特農、一般農、山坡地保育區及森林區的農牧用地這些用語都來自於過去的區域計畫法可是你現在國土計畫法如果要上路那農發條例這個東西你後面在做註記登記的時候其實會造成地方的行政負擔那這個東西的修法另外工廠管理負擔法也一樣第9條講\n利用都市計畫工業區非都市土地編定為丁種建築用地這個也都是用區域計畫法的名詞還有住宅法28條第二款第三款非都土地甲種建築用地、乙種建築用地達500平方公尺以上非都土地丙種建築用地等等這個都是用區域計畫法的法律名詞\n那你現在新的國土計畫法你講明年4月要全部上路那上路的時候你萬一其他的東西配套沒有來得及修正那這個東西造作法律上衍生適用意義影響大家生活品質我想這是不太好的那內政部針對這個其他法規你有沒有做通盤的盤整那預計的修法的期程是什麼\n是的：內政部當然也有針對相關法規有進行判證：國土計畫法相關的執法大概有23項：那我們目前已經完成14項：另外還有9項預定是在今年年底前完成：那至於其他的配套部分我請吳署長來做補充好 署長回答一下因為我們現在談的是其他的法條嘛對 就是其他各部會的部分我們在111年都已經有大致上彙整請各部會相關開始進行作業\n那我目前已知道大概財政部國產署的這個內規齁就他有一些內部的行政作業這些他都已經陸陸續續已經修正完了那但是他有草案都已經確認就要跟我們同步去先所以他等你們的時間就對了\n對,對,那其他各部會我們知道也有陸續在作業當中好,這就是你那個相關跟你整個國土計畫法修正相關的這個其他的法條,跨部會統統的修正像你所講的農法條例啦、工夫法對,這個跟不同部會涉及到七八個部會都會對,那個要同步好,那一樣你做一下會診,會有提供資料好不好,那我們來追蹤那也要我們去了解這個各部會修法的狀況好,沒問題\n好再來一個問題是就是其實是真正今天深水區的問題了嗎你現在內政部要怎麼去掌握各縣市辦理國土功能分區圖的進度啊因為現在看起來只有這個連江金門跟花蓮已經交了嘛大部分的縣市政府好像都還沒交那就本期的了解其實各地縣政府在溝通的時候都遇到很多問題啊那現在部裡面有多大的把握你可以全盤掌握\n我們其實每個月都有召開這個協調的一個會議所以基本上中央跟地方是同步的資訊是同步也掌握他們現在的進度跟狀況我今天早上看到一則新聞他講說這個就是因為我們剛剛提的這個問題也就是各地方縣市政府沒有辦法可能沒有辦法如期上交相關的這個圖的問題所以好像內政部行政院立法院的討論平台說可能會延後有這樣的事嗎\n跟部長確認一下我想這個地方各種聲音都有那這樣子說要延後的一個聲音也不只是現在提其實在很久以前其實也都提過不過我們還是照依法照這個期程在進行那也繼續努力那你講繼續努力有點模糊到底會不會照原定期程還是說如果真的有狀況的話你有一些延後的配套我覺得今天把話講清楚比較重要啦我們基本上因為這個一定要跟地方政府來做合作所以我們也要跟地方政府來做進一步的一個討論\n所以還有進一步討論的必要就對了我們現在當然也聽到許多的一個問題我們也會正式不過目前整個的一個協調機制還有所有的進度基本上都在進行當中那什麼時候可以確定因為現在既然新聞有出來說可能有延後的狀況我覺得真的如果溝通還沒有完善延後也不是什麼大不了的事情但至少這東西要完善因為所有東西都要層層溝通你的延後多一點時間討論那大家可能放心一點什麼時候可以確定說它會不會延後\n這部長心裡有數嗎?我想這部份最重要是大家要有一些共識那各種聲音現在都有所以目前還沒有凝聚共識的階段就對了現在目前還沒有好沒關係我想這就是我們今天專案報告的目的今天用這個時間我們把這個中間溝通遇到的各種問題大部分是政策工作的通案問題跟大家講就最後一點點時間就談一下這個這一樣是地方在遇到這個問題的困境\n就是說過去在非都的非都的情況下來那就是你看以建丁建嘛農牧用地那這個理論上都是以前叫鄉村區的一個概念那現在鄉村區你基於國土計畫要整併相關的土地要做有效的應用也要讓這個土地的這個這個畫色\n獲得獎項\n非建築用地本來是屬於農牧用地但他包在鄉村區的建築用地裡面的時候從縣政府規劃這個規劃這個相關的圖的版本的時候我當然是做整併嘛可能是農事可能是乘二之一乘三嘛可能類似這樣去做整併可是整併的問題就來了以前非都處理這樣的事情就是農地變成可以蓋建築的時候我有回饋機制嘛\n曾偉\n主席\n除非他認定為麒麟地否則他很難被併進來所以在國土計畫裡面他反而是允許用鄉村地區整體規劃去整體做適宜性的分析那才確認他以後是可以來申請的\n我想這都是一些還沒有溝通完畢的一個狀況吧\n不管是跟縣市政府的溝通也好這些細節政策配套也好或者是其他法條的配套其實好像都還沒有像樣的一個整合進度所以我想今天跟部長做一下政策對話所以如果他還需要花時間整理那是不是早一點明快一點講也許我們要有延後討論的必要那或者是說如果要如期上路那這中間的時間來如何來安排讓這些問題可以有效的處理這位部長請部長再要提供一個完整的說明好不好好沒問題好謝謝辛苦了\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.503 --> 00:00.784\n請林佑川部長請署長\n\n00:17.220 --> 00:32.590\n市長早安今天是這個國土計畫推動情形的專案報告當然我們就切合主題來談一下這樣的問題你應該是相關這個本來就是念這部分的土地管理應用跟都市計畫你有這樣方面的專業對不對不敢\n\n00:33.050 --> 00:59.142\n然後也做過地方縣市首長所以我想由林永昌部長來好好來跟這個地方做政策對話應該是蠻適宜的今天不談個案因為這個東西下去談地方的個案其實會有非常非常多講一講不完今天談這個通案跟政策溝通的一些細節有幾個問題要就教這個部長就本席在地方的了解這個國土計畫的推動引發了不小的爭議其中有一個比較大的問題在於第一個問題叫做書圖不同步\n\n00:59.782 --> 01:25.494\n也就是說其實在110年那時候本期來做議員的時候其實我們就有收到桃園市的國土計畫書啦但是就只是講概念也就是說我們大的方向是怎麼來做大概會有哪一些的分類分類一些定義或什麼東西的那當然嘛就是從政府的角度來講因為當初在推動的時候你就知道書圖來不及同步嘛可是這個事情就會衍生一個問題衍生什麼問題就是說我收到了國土計畫書我知道現在要改用國土計畫法可是問題是我不知道圖啊\n\n01:26.774 --> 01:55.608\n這個東西我沒有辦法跟地方的這個人做清楚的溝通的說明以至於地方政府在執行政策溝通的時候他是沒有辦法接地氣的因為你跟地方比如說開說明會就公聽會然後大家一問說那所以我家土地變什麼完蛋了我土還沒有出來那其實這個書圖不同步的時候就會導致溝通不充分的問題那現在另外一個問題是這個國土計畫法15條第三項有講說每5年做一次通盤檢討那你110年就公佈書但是預計是明年才會公佈圖嘛\n\n01:56.368 --> 01:56.908\n請部長簡單回答一下,謝謝。\n\n02:24.062 --> 02:50.917\n我想這個其實也蠻就是說很清楚剛剛在提到第一個就是過去一開始的時候的確是屬土不同步那第二個是第二階段的部分大概是縣市政府在完成這個屬土那第三階段土的部分到布裡面來對你也是要做個把關跟審查那剛剛在提到的這個時間點怎麼算時間點就是從這個國土的功能分區公佈實施之後開始算起5年\n\n02:52.133 --> 03:08.981\n所以是說圖出來之後才5年?是,所以說這個圖完成公告之後5年那另外一個問題就一樣是這個法規在推動跟執行的時候問題叫做其他法規的配套修正我們現在看不出來有一些進度這是要提醒一下我們的政府機關\n\n03:09.741 --> 03:32.374\n比如說舉幾個例子第二條農發條例農發條例裡面有寫耕地的定義叫一區域計畫法劃定為特農、一般農、山坡地保育區及森林區的農牧用地這些用語都來自於過去的區域計畫法可是你現在國土計畫法如果要上路那農發條例這個東西你後面在做註記登記的時候其實會造成地方的行政負擔那這個東西的修法另外工廠管理負擔法也一樣第9條講\n\n03:33.294 --> 03:49.370\n利用都市計畫工業區非都市土地編定為丁種建築用地這個也都是用區域計畫法的名詞還有住宅法28條第二款第三款非都土地甲種建築用地、乙種建築用地達500平方公尺以上非都土地丙種建築用地等等這個都是用區域計畫法的法律名詞\n\n03:50.111 --> 04:05.469\n那你現在新的國土計畫法你講明年4月要全部上路那上路的時候你萬一其他的東西配套沒有來得及修正那這個東西造作法律上衍生適用意義影響大家生活品質我想這是不太好的那內政部針對這個其他法規你有沒有做通盤的盤整那預計的修法的期程是什麼\n\n04:06.070 --> 04:33.323\n是的：內政部當然也有針對相關法規有進行判證：國土計畫法相關的執法大概有23項：那我們目前已經完成14項：另外還有9項預定是在今年年底前完成：那至於其他的配套部分我請吳署長來做補充好署長回答一下因為我們現在談的是其他的法條嘛對就是其他各部會的部分我們在111年都已經有大致上彙整請各部會相關開始進行作業\n\n04:33.983 --> 04:47.678\n那我目前已知道大概財政部國產署的這個內規齁就他有一些內部的行政作業這些他都已經陸陸續續已經修正完了那但是他有草案都已經確認就要跟我們同步去先所以他等你們的時間就對了\n\n04:49.700 --> 05:10.176\n對,對,那其他各部會我們知道也有陸續在作業當中好,這就是你那個相關跟你整個國土計畫法修正相關的這個其他的法條,跨部會統統的修正像你所講的農法條例啦、工夫法對,這個跟不同部會涉及到七八個部會都會對,那個要同步好,那一樣你做一下會診,會有提供資料好不好,那我們來追蹤那也要我們去了解這個各部會修法的狀況好,沒問題\n\n05:11.237 --> 05:33.024\n好再來一個問題是就是其實是真正今天深水區的問題了嗎你現在內政部要怎麼去掌握各縣市辦理國土功能分區圖的進度啊因為現在看起來只有這個連江金門跟花蓮已經交了嘛大部分的縣市政府好像都還沒交那就本期的了解其實各地縣政府在溝通的時候都遇到很多問題啊那現在部裡面有多大的把握你可以全盤掌握\n\n05:33.804 --> 06:01.707\n我們其實每個月都有召開這個協調的一個會議所以基本上中央跟地方是同步的資訊是同步也掌握他們現在的進度跟狀況我今天早上看到一則新聞他講說這個就是因為我們剛剛提的這個問題也就是各地方縣市政府沒有辦法可能沒有辦法如期上交相關的這個圖的問題所以好像內政部行政院立法院的討論平台說可能會延後有這樣的事嗎\n\n06:02.307 --> 06:29.890\n跟部長確認一下我想這個地方各種聲音都有那這樣子說要延後的一個聲音也不只是現在提其實在很久以前其實也都提過不過我們還是照依法照這個期程在進行那也繼續努力那你講繼續努力有點模糊到底會不會照原定期程還是說如果真的有狀況的話你有一些延後的配套我覺得今天把話講清楚比較重要啦我們基本上因為這個一定要跟地方政府來做合作所以我們也要跟地方政府來做進一步的一個討論\n\n06:31.314 --> 06:59.846\n所以還有進一步討論的必要就對了我們現在當然也聽到許多的一個問題我們也會正式不過目前整個的一個協調機制還有所有的進度基本上都在進行當中那什麼時候可以確定因為現在既然新聞有出來說可能有延後的狀況我覺得真的如果溝通還沒有完善延後也不是什麼大不了的事情但至少這東西要完善因為所有東西都要層層溝通你的延後多一點時間討論那大家可能放心一點什麼時候可以確定說它會不會延後\n\n07:01.006 --> 07:25.249\n這部長心裡有數嗎?我想這部份最重要是大家要有一些共識那各種聲音現在都有所以目前還沒有凝聚共識的階段就對了現在目前還沒有好沒關係我想這就是我們今天專案報告的目的今天用這個時間我們把這個中間溝通遇到的各種問題大部分是政策工作的通案問題跟大家講就最後一點點時間就談一下這個這一樣是地方在遇到這個問題的困境\n\n07:25.589 --> 07:41.284\n就是說過去在非都的非都的情況下來那就是你看以建丁建嘛農牧用地那這個理論上都是以前叫鄉村區的一個概念那現在鄉村區你基於國土計畫要整併相關的土地要做有效的應用也要讓這個土地的這個這個畫色\n\n07:43.106 --> 07:43.126\n獲得獎項\n\n08:01.019 --> 08:23.193\n非建築用地本來是屬於農牧用地但他包在鄉村區的建築用地裡面的時候從縣政府規劃這個規劃這個相關的圖的版本的時候我當然是做整併嘛可能是農事可能是乘二之一乘三嘛可能類似這樣去做整併可是整併的問題就來了以前非都處理這樣的事情就是農地變成可以蓋建築的時候我有回饋機制嘛\n\n08:23.573 --> 08:23.593\n曾偉\n\n08:48.032 --> 08:48.653\n主席\n\n09:07.789 --> 09:22.150\n除非他認定為麒麟地否則他很難被併進來所以在國土計畫裡面他反而是允許用鄉村地區整體規劃去整體做適宜性的分析那才確認他以後是可以來申請的\n\n09:23.031 --> 09:24.533\n我想這都是一些還沒有溝通完畢的一個狀況吧\n\n09:40.168 --> 10:07.546\n不管是跟縣市政府的溝通也好這些細節政策配套也好或者是其他法條的配套其實好像都還沒有像樣的一個整合進度所以我想今天跟部長做一下政策對話所以如果他還需要花時間整理那是不是早一點明快一點講也許我們要有延後討論的必要那或者是說如果要如期上路那這中間的時間來如何來安排讓這些問題可以有效的處理這位部長請部長再要提供一個完整的說明好不好好沒問題好謝謝辛苦了\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.503,"end":0.784,"text":"請林佑川部長請署長"},{"start":17.22,"end":32.59,"text":"市長早安今天是這個國土計畫推動情形的專案報告當然我們就切合主題來談一下這樣的問題你應該是相關這個本來就是念這部分的土地管理應用跟都市計畫你有這樣方面的專業對不對不敢"},{"start":33.05,"end":59.142,"text":"然後也做過地方縣市首長所以我想由林永昌部長來好好來跟這個地方做政策對話應該是蠻適宜的今天不談個案因為這個東西下去談地方的個案其實會有非常非常多講一講不完今天談這個通案跟政策溝通的一些細節有幾個問題要就教這個部長就本席在地方的了解這個國土計畫的推動引發了不小的爭議其中有一個比較大的問題在於第一個問題叫做書圖不同步"},{"start":59.782,"end":85.494,"text":"也就是說其實在110年那時候本期來做議員的時候其實我們就有收到桃園市的國土計畫書啦但是就只是講概念也就是說我們大的方向是怎麼來做大概會有哪一些的分類分類一些定義或什麼東西的那當然嘛就是從政府的角度來講因為當初在推動的時候你就知道書圖來不及同步嘛可是這個事情就會衍生一個問題衍生什麼問題就是說我收到了國土計畫書我知道現在要改用國土計畫法可是問題是我不知道圖啊"},{"start":86.774,"end":115.608,"text":"這個東西我沒有辦法跟地方的這個人做清楚的溝通的說明以至於地方政府在執行政策溝通的時候他是沒有辦法接地氣的因為你跟地方比如說開說明會就公聽會然後大家一問說那所以我家土地變什麼完蛋了我土還沒有出來那其實這個書圖不同步的時候就會導致溝通不充分的問題那現在另外一個問題是這個國土計畫法15條第三項有講說每5年做一次通盤檢討那你110年就公佈書但是預計是明年才會公佈圖嘛"},{"start":116.368,"end":116.908,"text":"請部長簡單回答一下,謝謝。"},{"start":144.062,"end":170.917,"text":"我想這個其實也蠻就是說很清楚剛剛在提到第一個就是過去一開始的時候的確是屬土不同步那第二個是第二階段的部分大概是縣市政府在完成這個屬土那第三階段土的部分到布裡面來對你也是要做個把關跟審查那剛剛在提到的這個時間點怎麼算時間點就是從這個國土的功能分區公佈實施之後開始算起5年"},{"start":172.133,"end":188.981,"text":"所以是說圖出來之後才5年?是,所以說這個圖完成公告之後5年那另外一個問題就一樣是這個法規在推動跟執行的時候問題叫做其他法規的配套修正我們現在看不出來有一些進度這是要提醒一下我們的政府機關"},{"start":189.741,"end":212.374,"text":"比如說舉幾個例子第二條農發條例農發條例裡面有寫耕地的定義叫一區域計畫法劃定為特農、一般農、山坡地保育區及森林區的農牧用地這些用語都來自於過去的區域計畫法可是你現在國土計畫法如果要上路那農發條例這個東西你後面在做註記登記的時候其實會造成地方的行政負擔那這個東西的修法另外工廠管理負擔法也一樣第9條講"},{"start":213.294,"end":229.37,"text":"利用都市計畫工業區非都市土地編定為丁種建築用地這個也都是用區域計畫法的名詞還有住宅法28條第二款第三款非都土地甲種建築用地、乙種建築用地達500平方公尺以上非都土地丙種建築用地等等這個都是用區域計畫法的法律名詞"},{"start":230.111,"end":245.469,"text":"那你現在新的國土計畫法你講明年4月要全部上路那上路的時候你萬一其他的東西配套沒有來得及修正那這個東西造作法律上衍生適用意義影響大家生活品質我想這是不太好的那內政部針對這個其他法規你有沒有做通盤的盤整那預計的修法的期程是什麼"},{"start":246.07,"end":273.323,"text":"是的：內政部當然也有針對相關法規有進行判證：國土計畫法相關的執法大概有23項：那我們目前已經完成14項：另外還有9項預定是在今年年底前完成：那至於其他的配套部分我請吳署長來做補充好 署長回答一下因為我們現在談的是其他的法條嘛對 就是其他各部會的部分我們在111年都已經有大致上彙整請各部會相關開始進行作業"},{"start":273.983,"end":287.678,"text":"那我目前已知道大概財政部國產署的這個內規齁就他有一些內部的行政作業這些他都已經陸陸續續已經修正完了那但是他有草案都已經確認就要跟我們同步去先所以他等你們的時間就對了"},{"start":289.7,"end":310.176,"text":"對,對,那其他各部會我們知道也有陸續在作業當中好,這就是你那個相關跟你整個國土計畫法修正相關的這個其他的法條,跨部會統統的修正像你所講的農法條例啦、工夫法對,這個跟不同部會涉及到七八個部會都會對,那個要同步好,那一樣你做一下會診,會有提供資料好不好,那我們來追蹤那也要我們去了解這個各部會修法的狀況好,沒問題"},{"start":311.237,"end":333.024,"text":"好再來一個問題是就是其實是真正今天深水區的問題了嗎你現在內政部要怎麼去掌握各縣市辦理國土功能分區圖的進度啊因為現在看起來只有這個連江金門跟花蓮已經交了嘛大部分的縣市政府好像都還沒交那就本期的了解其實各地縣政府在溝通的時候都遇到很多問題啊那現在部裡面有多大的把握你可以全盤掌握"},{"start":333.804,"end":361.707,"text":"我們其實每個月都有召開這個協調的一個會議所以基本上中央跟地方是同步的資訊是同步也掌握他們現在的進度跟狀況我今天早上看到一則新聞他講說這個就是因為我們剛剛提的這個問題也就是各地方縣市政府沒有辦法可能沒有辦法如期上交相關的這個圖的問題所以好像內政部行政院立法院的討論平台說可能會延後有這樣的事嗎"},{"start":362.307,"end":389.89,"text":"跟部長確認一下我想這個地方各種聲音都有那這樣子說要延後的一個聲音也不只是現在提其實在很久以前其實也都提過不過我們還是照依法照這個期程在進行那也繼續努力那你講繼續努力有點模糊到底會不會照原定期程還是說如果真的有狀況的話你有一些延後的配套我覺得今天把話講清楚比較重要啦我們基本上因為這個一定要跟地方政府來做合作所以我們也要跟地方政府來做進一步的一個討論"},{"start":391.314,"end":419.846,"text":"所以還有進一步討論的必要就對了我們現在當然也聽到許多的一個問題我們也會正式不過目前整個的一個協調機制還有所有的進度基本上都在進行當中那什麼時候可以確定因為現在既然新聞有出來說可能有延後的狀況我覺得真的如果溝通還沒有完善延後也不是什麼大不了的事情但至少這東西要完善因為所有東西都要層層溝通你的延後多一點時間討論那大家可能放心一點什麼時候可以確定說它會不會延後"},{"start":421.006,"end":445.249,"text":"這部長心裡有數嗎?我想這部份最重要是大家要有一些共識那各種聲音現在都有所以目前還沒有凝聚共識的階段就對了現在目前還沒有好沒關係我想這就是我們今天專案報告的目的今天用這個時間我們把這個中間溝通遇到的各種問題大部分是政策工作的通案問題跟大家講就最後一點點時間就談一下這個這一樣是地方在遇到這個問題的困境"},{"start":445.589,"end":461.284,"text":"就是說過去在非都的非都的情況下來那就是你看以建丁建嘛農牧用地那這個理論上都是以前叫鄉村區的一個概念那現在鄉村區你基於國土計畫要整併相關的土地要做有效的應用也要讓這個土地的這個這個畫色"},{"start":463.106,"end":463.126,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":481.019,"end":503.193,"text":"非建築用地本來是屬於農牧用地但他包在鄉村區的建築用地裡面的時候從縣政府規劃這個規劃這個相關的圖的版本的時候我當然是做整併嘛可能是農事可能是乘二之一乘三嘛可能類似這樣去做整併可是整併的問題就來了以前非都處理這樣的事情就是農地變成可以蓋建築的時候我有回饋機制嘛"},{"start":503.573,"end":503.593,"text":"曾偉"},{"start":528.032,"end":528.653,"text":"主席"},{"start":547.789,"end":562.15,"text":"除非他認定為麒麟地否則他很難被併進來所以在國土計畫裡面他反而是允許用鄉村地區整體規劃去整體做適宜性的分析那才確認他以後是可以來申請的"},{"start":563.031,"end":564.533,"text":"我想這都是一些還沒有溝通完畢的一個狀況吧"},{"start":580.168,"end":607.546,"text":"不管是跟縣市政府的溝通也好這些細節政策配套也好或者是其他法條的配套其實好像都還沒有像樣的一個整合進度所以我想今天跟部長做一下政策對話所以如果他還需要花時間整理那是不是早一點明快一點講也許我們要有延後討論的必要那或者是說如果要如期上路那這中間的時間來如何來安排讓這些問題可以有效的處理這位部長請部長再要提供一個完整的說明好不好好沒問題好謝謝辛苦了"}]}}}}