{"id":150190,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150190","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc3052a14836e0b4784a1f469dd78c507e1b3ff8ba9b0039caa7a644077b89814682f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:10:04 - 09:22:01","影片長度":"00:11:57","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、農業部、國家發展委員會、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「加速推動再生能源對國土環境之影響及環境影響評估認定標準修訂進度」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月20日及21日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-7"},"date":"2024-03-21","duration":717,"end_time":"2024-03-21T09:22:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-21T09:10:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":140,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時10分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部次長和能源署署長。"],["主席：好，來，請次長和署長上台。"],["林次長全能：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：你好。次長，過去主張2025年再生能源發電量要達20%，但是111年度全國電力資源供需報告卻預估114年僅能達到15.5%，所以就是一直沒辦法達到目標，然後一直下修。這是第一件事情。第二，2022年3月國發會更在2050淨零排放路徑中，誇口表示2050年將會把再生能源占比提高至60%到70%。其實2022年10月立法院預算中心就有表示，當時能源局規劃的目標跟實際上發電的比例實在是差很大，就是有做過提醒。再來就是2023年到去年，再生能源發電比例僅占9.4%，請問次長，你要怎麼在短短的2年內彌補這10.5%的落差跟短缺呢？"],["林次長全能：謝謝委員，這個部分是我們所訂定的目標，這個目標的達成事實上我們也有擬訂具體的計畫在往前邁進，不要說我們的太陽光電跟離岸風電會在這一兩年之間有大量的設置跟併網發電，尤其是離岸風電的部分，我想這個部分我們也詳細的推估，實際上以2025年的目標，應該……"],["陳委員昭姿：次長……"],["林次長全能：併網會在2025年……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們繼續觀察，就是訂的目標跟實際的落差情形，一直在……"],["林次長全能：是，我們也是每年在檢視，而且每年也在滾動做嘉獎、推動工作。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，蘇前院長他承諾太陽光電在2025年的裝置容量可望達到20GW，經濟部次長曾文生也在去年說這個目標沒有改變，可是我們卻還是從經濟部能源署的資料看到，到今年1月為止才12GW，才六成耶！這個目標根本沒有達到。再來，我還是再次要呼籲貴部，沒有辦法兌現的承諾就不要輕易地開空頭支票，也不要在媒體提供不符實情的訊息，讓國人以為我們的光電發展是進步神速好嗎？"],["林次長全能：我想這個目標訂定是我們要努力的方向，事實上我剛剛報告過，我們都有掌握每一年度可以設置太陽光電所要的面積或土地，以及相關的實質進展狀況，當然到目前為止，截至113年併網是12.46GW，但是我們有完全掌握到2025的20GW……"],["陳委員昭姿：是，但是我們就看到不斷地下修嘛！再來是不是請環境部部長也上來，次長請先留步，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，再生能源的拓展本來是個美意，就是希望能夠創造人類永遠經營的生存環境，在淨零碳排的國家政策上，為了減少化石燃料發電所造成的污染，所以推動了再生能跟綠能，我想請問環境部認同拿林地跟綠地去變成光電場這樣子的作法嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：假如是非常完整的一個林地，事實上是不適合，我想在環評裡面我們的委員也會對這一塊提出他們的看法。"],["陳委員昭姿：那我同時就請問部長跟次長，有關鳳林光電的爭議，這個大型開發案闖入了花東縱谷最美麗的一片土地，造成這片土地林地被砍伐、農地被破壞，這樣的行為絲毫不尊重地方發展的意願，而且也凸顯我們政府沒有做好政策指引，就任憑光電廠商想在哪裡開發就在哪裡開發，已經嚴重影響臺灣曾經引以為傲的生態環境，難道這是我們想要的再生能源嗎？請問部長跟次長是否承諾，針對這些業者我們需要更加有限制性的、更加強制性的規範呢？"],["薛部長富盛：我們目前是沒有接到這個案子的環評書要審查的部分，所以假如他們有在規劃，我想我們會特別來關注。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這個在上一屆的陳椒華辦公室，他就已經提出這樣子的呼籲，而且整個開發面積占了全鎮幾乎六分之一耶！是不是請部長跟次長要瞭解，對業者是要有所約束的，要更強制性的……"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們會去特別瞭解，但是在我們的環評裡面，事實上我印象中是沒有這個案子。"],["陳委員昭姿：這不是新的事件。"],["薛部長富盛：對，所以他們還沒有送進來，我們還沒接到。"],["陳委員昭姿：那我再請教次長，相較於砍樹、砍農地這種破壞國土環境來換取綠能的作法，我認為去年行政院提案，然後立法院三讀通過的再生能源發展條例修法，強制要求一定規模的新建建築物必須要裝置屋頂型的太陽光電，或許這是比較適當的一個作法，但是我們也知道過去這幾年中央政府到地方政府都有透過補助的方式，也鼓勵既有的社區大樓是不是能夠利用屋頂來架設太陽能光電，但是從去年開始有些地方就停止了。以臺中市為例，我這邊有接到陳情，就是有社區有意願架設，但是臺中市政府說，因為中央補助停止了，所以沒辦法接受這樣的受理申請，我想請教的是，目前中央對於既有建築物的光電設施補助還在持續嗎？你們還在鼓勵地方政府繼續推動嗎？"],["林次長全能：我想跟委員報告，事實上推動太陽光電，尤其是屋頂型太陽光電，事實上我們最主要的一個incentive是躉購費率，對這種屋頂型的躉購費率，我們會給予比較高的發電躉購費率，其實這才是真正來促進業者或者民眾設屋頂型太陽光電的主力。至於補助的部分，我所知道的是地方政府他們會依地方政府特色來做補助，委員剛剛你提到的部分，我們可以跟地方政府來做更進一步的溝通。"],["陳委員昭姿：我讓次長知道，我從能源署太陽光電單一服務窗口的網站我看到，到去年為止只剩下雙北、屏東、苗栗等10個地方政府還在推動補助計畫，臺中、新竹縣確實是沒有的，所以次長是不是應該跟這些地方政府討論一下？"],["林次長全能：好，我們會來跟地方做溝通。"],["陳委員昭姿：繼續進行補助嘛！讓有意願的社區大樓也能夠有機會加入建築物有光電這樣的架設行列，你的溝通可以什麼時候來進行？"],["林次長全能：我請我們能源署這邊來安排。"],["陳委員昭姿：我瞭解一下這個進度好嗎？"],["林次長全能：我們如果安排好，再跟委員做一個說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我需要知道這個進度。再來請教次長，我要跟你請教地熱發電的部分，2022年監察院有一份調查報告，針對地熱發電推動進度的嚴重落後，要求經濟部跟行政院能夠重視跟檢討。經濟部在2019年有修訂再生能源條例，還有發表能源轉型白皮書，它制定的裝置容量目標是2020年要達到150MW，2025年要達到200MW，這個數字是在白皮書裡面，但是真相呢？真相呢？我上台電的網站去看，目前唯一的地熱發電廠在宜蘭，到今年2月，就是到上個月為止的數字才0.84MW，距離2020年已經過去的政策目標150MW差很大耶！差很大耶！這個差異高達150倍，次長，為什麼跳票這麼嚴重呢？這麼嚴重呢？"],["林次長全能：我想跟委員報告，地熱的發電必須經過探勘，其實最主要就是探勘的部分遇到一些比較有挑戰的情形，我們修再生能源發展條例，也是把探勘的部分能夠來做強化……"],["陳委員昭姿：這就是我說的嘛！就一個承諾、一個目標，但是後來都是一直達不到，然後下修。因為這個2019年修過一次法，當時這個政策目標就訂在那裡，但是如果你明知道2019年這個修法無法順利推動的話，那就當時要處理，不是到2023才再次去修法。既然你提到這些事情，我就要請問後續的子法問題，去年的再生能源發展條例修法後，經濟部能源署在1月26日有公布地熱開發辦法，其中第七條是有關案場的間距，這個稍微困難一點，不得低於500公尺的部分，但是我要請教，案場間距500公尺的距離規範，為了因應斜井，因為鑽探的時候不可能是直的，就一直斜斜的下去，那從井頭到頸的末端，這個所謂取熱的開篩段，往地表應該要進行一個3D的投影，有一定的面積計算之後再推開500公尺，我這個說法對不對？就是為了隔開案場，這個說法對不對？"],["林次長全能：我請我們署長來說明。"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，因為地熱有侷限性，我們要充分利用，那又不要互相影響，所以一定要有一個適當的距離，這個適當距離還要再兼顧行政監理上的便利性，所以到底是要用案場周界，還是要用地下的這一個開篩段，其實這個我們在討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，我的問題就來了，因為根據環保團體的陳情，沒有人看得懂啦！你上面的規定寫得不夠清楚，沒有人看得懂，所以是不是在這個草案還沒有公布實施之前能夠適度的修正，就是加上一個3D示意圖，讓願意協助政府推動第2年發展的，不管是環保團體或業者能夠正確的解讀跟適用，次長是不是願意承諾，回去稍微把這個說明處理一下？"],["林次長全能：好，我想對外的溝通我們來做強化。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。部長，最後一個是地熱的問題，我們現在發現環評標準第二十九條，天然氣發電裝置其實雖然污染度比較低，但是事實上它還是有污染的，可是它只有在興建裝置容量有超過200MW才要做環評。但是再生能源，而且屬於綠能的地熱發電，卻是10MW就要環評，差距20倍，怎麼說得過去呢？這個要不要檢討？"],["薛部長富盛：是，給委員報告，我們已經在檢討地熱這一塊，因為包括剛剛林次長提到的，未來地熱是我們再生能源下一階段很重要的……"],["陳委員昭姿：什麼時候要提出檢討報告？"],["薛部長富盛：我們自己本身已經有一個草案，我剛剛有……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個你們什麼時候要提出來？什麼時候提出來？因為實在差距太大了。"],["薛部長富盛：7月底以前會把草案預告……"],["陳委員昭姿：7月底嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：7月底以前預告草案，然後希望年底能夠修法完畢。"],["陳委員昭姿：確實、確實有很大問題，差20倍，一個是比較理想的方式，但差20倍……"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們認同陳委員的意見。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長、次長，這些檢討我希望環境部跟經濟部能夠緊密合作，對的事情我們要想辦法突破現有法規的不當限制。而不對的事情，像鳳林電廠部分，用綠地、農地、林地來換取再生能源或光電的這種破壞環境作法，我們在政策跟法規上，是不是要稍微做一個嚴謹的把關？"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們現在在進行了。"],["陳委員昭姿：可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是，在進行當中。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長和次長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳昭姿委員。","接下來請林月琴委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":404,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-7","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王正旭","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 186.663, \"end\": 186.983, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 186.983, \"end\": 187.123, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 187.123, \"end\": 187.343, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 187.343, \"end\": 187.363, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 187.363, \"end\": 187.383, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 188.725, \"end\": 193.738, \"text\": \"那再來是不是請環境部部長也上那次長跟請先留步好留步好謝謝\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 188.725, \"end\": 189.025, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 189.025, \"end\": 189.346, \"score\": 0.639}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 189.346, \"end\": 189.467, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 189.467, \"end\": 189.647, \"score\": 0.443}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 189.647, \"end\": 190.088, \"score\": 0.683}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 190.088, \"end\": 190.249, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 190.249, \"end\": 190.389, \"score\": 0.673}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 190.389, \"end\": 190.75, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 190.75, \"end\": 190.951, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 190.951, \"end\": 191.151, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 191.151, \"end\": 191.512, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 191.512, \"end\": 191.913, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 191.913, \"end\": 192.675, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 192.675, \"end\": 192.836, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"留\", \"start\": 192.836, \"end\": 193.056, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 193.056, \"end\": 193.217, \"score\": 0.605}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 193.217, \"end\": 193.377, \"score\": 0.61}, {\"word\": \"留\", \"start\": 193.377, \"end\": 193.538, \"score\": 0.511}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 193.538, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 483.011, \"end\": 483.031, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 483.031, \"end\": 483.051, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 483.051, \"end\": 483.151, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 483.151, \"end\": 483.171, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 497.608, \"end\": 521.994, \"text\": \"我想跟委員報告地熱的這個發電他必須經過探勘其實最主要的部分就是探勘的部分遇到一些這個比較挑戰的一個這樣的一個情形那我們修那個再生能源發展條例也是把探勘的部分能夠來做其實就只有我說嘛就一個承諾一個目標但是後來都是一直在達不到然後下修齁因為這個2019年修過一次法嘛當時這個政策目標就定在那裡但是如果你明知道2019年齁這個修法無法順利推動的話\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 497.608, \"end\": 497.768, \"score\": 0.605}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 497.768, \"end\": 498.008, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 498.008, \"end\": 498.188, \"score\": 0.6}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 498.188, \"end\": 498.588, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 498.588, \"end\": 499.008, 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0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 711.969, \"end\": 712.069, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 712.069, \"end\": 712.089, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,037 --> 00:00:13,127\n謝謝主席有請經濟部次長跟能源署署長好來請我們次長跟署長上台\n\n2\n00:00:17,236 --> 00:00:20,358\n市長過去主張2025年這個再生能源發電量要達20%但是根據這個圖像這個左方110年度全國電力資源供需的報告卻預估114年才能僅達到15.5%百分比\n\n3\n00:00:37,449 --> 00:00:55,265\n所以就是一直沒辦法達到目標然後一直下修這是第一件事第二個2022年3月國發會更是在2050這個近年碳排的路徑中誇口表示2050年將會把再生能源的佔率提高到60到70個百分比\n\n4\n00:00:56,346 --> 00:01:16,540\n那2022年這個10月其實立院的預算中心就有表示當時的能源局規劃的目標跟實際上發電的比率實在是差很大就是有做過的提醒再來就是2023年到去年再生能源的發電比率僅佔9.47百分比請問次長你要怎麼在短短的這個兩年內彌補這10.5百分比的一個落差跟這個\n\n5\n00:01:25,117 --> 00:01:49,795\n確實短缺呢好謝謝委員我想這個部分是我們所訂定的目標那這個目標達成事實上我們也有一定具體的計畫在往前邁進不要說我們的太陽光電跟這個離岸風電會在這一兩年之間有大量的一個這樣的一個設置跟並往發電尤其是離岸風電的一個部分那我想這個部分就是我們也詳細的推估那事實上以2025年的目標應該並往\n\n6\n00:01:51,816 --> 00:01:54,419\n蘇前院長承諾太陽光電在2025年的裝置容量可望達到20GW那經濟部次長曾文森也在去年說這個目標沒有改變可是\n\n7\n00:02:14,798 --> 00:02:41,963\n我們卻還是從經濟部能源署的資料網上看到到今年1月為止才是12個GW才6成這個目標根本沒有達到再來就是說我還是再次要呼籲這個貴部沒有辦法兌現的承諾就不要輕易的開公投支票也不要在媒體提供這個不符實情的訊息讓國會以為我們的光電這個發展是進步神速好嗎\n\n8\n00:02:43,407 --> 00:03:07,383\n我想這個目標訂定是不是我們要努力的方向那事實上我剛剛報告過我們都有掌握每一年度可以設置的這太陽光墊的一個所要的一個面積或土地以及相關的一個這個實質的一個進展狀況那當然以目前為止截至到113年是並往是12.46GW但是我們有完全掌握到2025的20GW設置的量但是我們就看到不斷的下修嘛\n\n9\n00:03:08,725 --> 00:03:13,738\n那再來是不是請環境部部長也上那次長跟請先留步好留步好謝謝\n\n10\n00:03:18,765 --> 00:03:40,018\n部長,再生能源的拓展本來是個美意就是希望能夠創造人類永遠經營的一個生存環境那在近年碳排的國家政治上為了減少化石燃料發電所造成的污染所以推動了這個再生能源跟綠能那麼我想請問環境部認同拿林地跟綠地去變成光電廠的這樣的做法嗎?\n\n11\n00:03:41,445 --> 00:03:42,886\n我同時就請問部長跟市長\n\n12\n00:03:59,057 --> 00:04:21,129\n這個鳳林光電的爭議這個大型開發案闖入了花東縱谷最美麗的一片土地造成這片土地林地被砍發、農地被破壞這樣的行為絲毫不尊重地方發展的意願而且也凸顯我們政府沒有做好這個政策指引就是人民光電廠商想在哪裡開發就在哪裡開發已經嚴重影響這個臺灣曾經引以為傲的一個生態環境\n\n13\n00:04:25,351 --> 00:04:49,344\n難道這是我們想要的再生能源嗎?請問部長跟次長是否承諾針對這些業者我們需要更加有限制性的更加強制性的規範呢?我們目前事實上是沒有接到這個案子的一個環評書要審查的部分所以是假如他們有在規劃我想我們會特別來\n\n14\n00:04:49,924 --> 00:04:52,666\n但是在我們的環評裡面事實上我印象中是沒有被判明對所以他們還沒有送進來那我再請教次長\n\n15\n00:05:16,044 --> 00:05:43,140\n相較於砍樹砍農地這種電性破壞國土環境來換取力能的做法我認為去年行政院提案然後立法院三讀通過的這個再生能源發展條例修法他強制要求剛剛有他為報告一定規模的新建建築物必要裝置屋頂型的太陽光墊或許這是比較適當的一個做法但是我們也知道過去這幾年中央政府到地方政府都有透過補助的方式\n\n16\n00:05:43,840 --> 00:06:12,542\n也鼓勵既有的社區大樓是不是能夠利用屋頂來架設這個太陽能光電但是從去年開始有些地方就停止了以台中市為例我這邊有接到陳情就是說有地方有社區有意願架設但是台中市政府說因為中央補助停止了所以他沒有辦法接受這樣的受理陳情所以我想請教的是目前中央對於既有建築物的光電設施補助還在持續嗎你們還在鼓勵地方的政府繼續推動嗎\n\n17\n00:06:14,161 --> 00:06:35,429\n我想跟委員報告事實上推動這個太陽光電尤其是這個屋頂型太陽光電事實上我們最主要的一個incentive是短購匯率對這種屋頂型的短購匯率我們會給予比較高的一個這個發電的一個短購匯率即使這才是真正來這個促進業者或者是民眾來設這個屋頂型太陽光電的主力\n\n18\n00:06:35,789 --> 00:06:54,157\n那至於補助的部分我所知道是地方政府他們會依地方政府特色來做補助那委員剛剛你提到的部分我們可以來跟地方政府來做更進一步的溝通我讓市長知道說我從能源署太陽光電單一服務窗口的網站我看到目前到就是到去年為止只剩下雙北屏東苗栗10個地方政府還在推動補助計畫那台中新竹縣確實是沒有的所以市長是不是應該跟這些地方政府討論一下繼續進行補助\n\n19\n00:07:03,101 --> 00:07:10,815\n就是說讓有意願的社區大樓也能夠有機會加入建築物有光電的這樣的架設行列那你這個溝通可以什麼時候來進行\n\n20\n00:07:12,159 --> 00:07:37,436\n我想我請我們那個能源署這邊我了解一下這個進度我們如果安排好再跟委員做一個報告好我需要知道這個進度好再來這個請教次長我要跟您請教地熱發電的部分2022年監察院有一份調查報告針對這個地熱發電的推動進度嚴重的落後要求經濟部跟行政院能夠重視跟檢討那經濟部在2019年有修訂再生能源條例還有發表能源轉型白皮書\n\n21\n00:07:38,297 --> 00:07:57,326\n他制定的裝置容量目標是2020年要達到150個MW2025年要達到20MW這個數字是在白皮書裡面但是真相呢?真相呢?好,我們看下一張我上台電的網站去看目前唯一的地熱發展在宜蘭\n\n22\n00:07:58,507 --> 00:08:03,171\n到今年2月2月上個月為止數字才0.84MW距離2022年已經過去的政策目標150欸差很大欸差很大欸這個差異高達150倍啊為什麼市長跳票這麼嚴重呢這麼嚴重呢\n\n23\n00:08:17,608 --> 00:08:41,994\n我想跟委員報告地熱的這個發電他必須經過探勘其實最主要的部分就是探勘的部分遇到一些這個比較挑戰的一個這樣的一個情形那我們修那個再生能源發展條例也是把探勘的部分能夠來做其實就只有我說嘛就一個承諾一個目標但是後來都是一直在達不到然後下修齁因為這個2019年修過一次法嘛當時這個政策目標就定在那裡但是如果你明知道2019年齁這個修法無法順利推動的話\n\n24\n00:08:44,935 --> 00:08:45,095\n但是我要請教這張簡報．這張簡報．\n\n25\n00:09:11,644 --> 00:09:16,369\n就是說暗場兼具500公尺的距離這個規範因為因應這個斜景因為穿探的時候不可能是直的嘛就一直這個斜斜的下去那從井頭到這個我們這個井的末端這個所謂的這個開篩段取熱的開篩段往地表應該要進行一個3D的投影有一定的面積計算之後再推開500公尺\n\n26\n00:09:34,108 --> 00:09:56,784\n就是說我這個說法對不對就是說為了隔開這個暗場這個說法對不對報告委員這個就是說因為地熱它是有局限性那我們要充分利用那又不要互相影響所以一定要有一個適當的距離那這個適當距離還要再兼顧行政監理上的便利性所以到底是要用暗場周戒還是要用地下的這一個開篩段其實這個我們在討論\n\n27\n00:09:57,244 --> 00:10:14,895\n我是想次長跟我說我的問題就來了因為這個根據環保團體的陳情說沒人看得到啦你說上面這個規定寫不夠清楚沒有人看得懂沒有人看得懂所以說是不是在這個草案還沒有公佈之前公佈實施之前能夠適度的修正就是說\n\n28\n00:10:15,976 --> 00:10:16,717\n我想對外的溝通我們來做強化\n\n29\n00:10:32,219 --> 00:10:52,833\n好那部長最後一個是地熱的問題我們現在發現對環評標準第29條天然氣發電裝置其實雖然污染度比較低但是事實上它還是有污染的可是它的只有在裝置的這個新建裝置容量超過200個MW才要做環評但是我們認為是再生能源的而且屬於這個這個綠能的地熱發電卻要10個MW\n\n30\n00:10:55,575 --> 00:11:09,664\n就要做環兵這個差距20倍怎麼說得過去呢這個要不要檢討呢是給委員報告我們已經在檢討地熱這一塊因為未來包括剛剛林次長提到的地熱事實上也是我們再生能源下一階段很重要的那什麼時候要提出這個\n\n31\n00:11:11,127 --> 00:11:28,682\n我們自己本身已經有一個草案這個能源要什麼時候提出來?什麼時候提出來?因為實在差太大了7月底以前會把草案預告7月底嗎?對,7月底以前預告草案那我年底希望能夠修法完成確實有很大問題差20倍一個比較理想的方式但差20倍我認同陳委員的意見\n\n32\n00:11:29,423 --> 00:11:52,089\n市長這些檢討我希望環境部跟經濟部是能夠緊密合作對的事情我們就要突破想辦法說現有的法規的限制不當的限制那不對的事情像這個鳳林電廠的部分我想這種綠地用綠地農地林地來換取這個再生能源或用光電的這個破壞的環境的做法是不是在政策跟法規上要稍微做一個嚴謹的法關是我們現在在進行的可以嗎是在進行的當中好謝謝市長謝謝陳委員好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6037\t13127\t謝謝主席有請經濟部次長跟能源署署長好來請我們次長跟署長上台\n17236\t20358\t市長過去主張2025年這個再生能源發電量要達20%但是根據這個圖像這個左方110年度全國電力資源供需的報告卻預估114年才能僅達到15.5%百分比\n37449\t55265\t所以就是一直沒辦法達到目標然後一直下修這是第一件事第二個2022年3月國發會更是在2050這個近年碳排的路徑中誇口表示2050年將會把再生能源的佔率提高到60到70個百分比\n56346\t76540\t那2022年這個10月其實立院的預算中心就有表示當時的能源局規劃的目標跟實際上發電的比率實在是差很大就是有做過的提醒再來就是2023年到去年再生能源的發電比率僅佔9.47百分比請問次長你要怎麼在短短的這個兩年內彌補這10.5百分比的一個落差跟這個\n85117\t109795\t確實短缺呢好謝謝委員我想這個部分是我們所訂定的目標那這個目標達成事實上我們也有一定具體的計畫在往前邁進不要說我們的太陽光電跟這個離岸風電會在這一兩年之間有大量的一個這樣的一個設置跟並往發電尤其是離岸風電的一個部分那我想這個部分就是我們也詳細的推估那事實上以2025年的目標應該並往\n111816\t114419\t蘇前院長承諾太陽光電在2025年的裝置容量可望達到20GW那經濟部次長曾文森也在去年說這個目標沒有改變可是\n134798\t161963\t我們卻還是從經濟部能源署的資料網上看到到今年1月為止才是12個GW才6成這個目標根本沒有達到再來就是說我還是再次要呼籲這個貴部沒有辦法兌現的承諾就不要輕易的開公投支票也不要在媒體提供這個不符實情的訊息讓國會以為我們的光電這個發展是進步神速好嗎\n163407\t187383\t我想這個目標訂定是不是我們要努力的方向那事實上我剛剛報告過我們都有掌握每一年度可以設置的這太陽光墊的一個所要的一個面積或土地以及相關的一個這個實質的一個進展狀況那當然以目前為止截至到113年是並往是12.46GW但是我們有完全掌握到2025的20GW設置的量但是我們就看到不斷的下修嘛\n188725\t193738\t那再來是不是請環境部部長也上那次長跟請先留步好留步好謝謝\n198765\t220018\t部長,再生能源的拓展本來是個美意就是希望能夠創造人類永遠經營的一個生存環境那在近年碳排的國家政治上為了減少化石燃料發電所造成的污染所以推動了這個再生能源跟綠能那麼我想請問環境部認同拿林地跟綠地去變成光電廠的這樣的做法嗎?\n221445\t222886\t我同時就請問部長跟市長\n239057\t261129\t這個鳳林光電的爭議這個大型開發案闖入了花東縱谷最美麗的一片土地造成這片土地林地被砍發、農地被破壞這樣的行為絲毫不尊重地方發展的意願而且也凸顯我們政府沒有做好這個政策指引就是人民光電廠商想在哪裡開發就在哪裡開發已經嚴重影響這個臺灣曾經引以為傲的一個生態環境\n265351\t289344\t難道這是我們想要的再生能源嗎?請問部長跟次長是否承諾針對這些業者我們需要更加有限制性的更加強制性的規範呢?我們目前事實上是沒有接到這個案子的一個環評書要審查的部分所以是假如他們有在規劃我想我們會特別來\n289924\t292666\t但是在我們的環評裡面 事實上我印象中是沒有被判明對 所以他們還沒有送進來 那我再請教次長\n316044\t343140\t相較於砍樹砍農地這種電性破壞國土環境來換取力能的做法我認為去年行政院提案然後立法院三讀通過的這個再生能源發展條例修法他強制要求剛剛有他為報告一定規模的新建建築物必要裝置屋頂型的太陽光墊或許這是比較適當的一個做法但是我們也知道過去這幾年中央政府到地方政府都有透過補助的方式\n343840\t372542\t也鼓勵既有的社區大樓是不是能夠利用屋頂來架設這個太陽能光電但是從去年開始有些地方就停止了以台中市為例我這邊有接到陳情就是說有地方有社區有意願架設但是台中市政府說因為中央補助停止了所以他沒有辦法接受這樣的受理陳情所以我想請教的是目前中央對於既有建築物的光電設施補助還在持續嗎你們還在鼓勵地方的政府繼續推動嗎\n374161\t395429\t我想跟委員報告事實上推動這個太陽光電尤其是這個屋頂型太陽光電事實上我們最主要的一個incentive是短購匯率對這種屋頂型的短購匯率我們會給予比較高的一個這個發電的一個短購匯率即使這才是真正來這個促進業者或者是民眾來設這個屋頂型太陽光電的主力\n395789\t414157\t那至於補助的部分我所知道是地方政府他們會依地方政府特色來做補助那委員剛剛你提到的部分我們可以來跟地方政府來做更進一步的溝通我讓市長知道說我從能源署太陽光電單一服務窗口的網站我看到目前到就是到去年為止只剩下雙北屏東苗栗10個地方政府還在推動補助計畫那台中新竹縣確實是沒有的所以市長是不是應該跟這些地方政府討論一下繼續進行補助\n423101\t430815\t就是說讓有意願的社區大樓也能夠有機會加入建築物有光電的這樣的架設行列那你這個溝通可以什麼時候來進行\n432159\t457436\t我想我請我們那個能源署這邊我了解一下這個進度我們如果安排好再跟委員做一個報告好我需要知道這個進度好再來這個請教次長我要跟您請教地熱發電的部分2022年監察院有一份調查報告針對這個地熱發電的推動進度嚴重的落後要求經濟部跟行政院能夠重視跟檢討那經濟部在2019年有修訂再生能源條例還有發表能源轉型白皮書\n458297\t477326\t他制定的裝置容量目標是2020年要達到150個MW2025年要達到20MW這個數字是在白皮書裡面但是真相呢?真相呢?好,我們看下一張我上台電的網站去看目前唯一的地熱發展在宜蘭\n478507\t483171\t到今年2月2月上個月為止數字才0.84MW距離2022年已經過去的政策目標150欸差很大欸差很大欸這個差異高達150倍啊為什麼市長跳票這麼嚴重呢這麼嚴重呢\n497608\t521994\t我想跟委員報告地熱的這個發電他必須經過探勘其實最主要的部分就是探勘的部分遇到一些這個比較挑戰的一個這樣的一個情形那我們修那個再生能源發展條例也是把探勘的部分能夠來做其實就只有我說嘛就一個承諾一個目標但是後來都是一直在達不到然後下修齁因為這個2019年修過一次法嘛當時這個政策目標就定在那裡但是如果你明知道2019年齁這個修法無法順利推動的話\n524935\t525095\t但是我要請教這張簡報．這張簡報．\n551644\t556369\t就是說暗場兼具500公尺的距離這個規範因為因應這個斜景因為穿探的時候不可能是直的嘛就一直這個斜斜的下去那從井頭到這個我們這個井的末端這個所謂的這個開篩段取熱的開篩段往地表應該要進行一個3D的投影有一定的面積計算之後再推開500公尺\n574108\t596784\t就是說我這個說法對不對就是說為了隔開這個暗場這個說法對不對報告委員這個就是說因為地熱它是有局限性那我們要充分利用那又不要互相影響所以一定要有一個適當的距離那這個適當距離還要再兼顧行政監理上的便利性所以到底是要用暗場周戒還是要用地下的這一個開篩段其實這個我們在討論\n597244\t614895\t我是想次長跟我說我的問題就來了因為這個根據環保團體的陳情說沒人看得到啦你說上面這個規定寫不夠清楚沒有人看得懂沒有人看得懂所以說是不是在這個草案還沒有公佈之前公佈實施之前能夠適度的修正就是說\n615976\t616717\t我想對外的溝通我們來做強化\n632219\t652833\t好那部長最後一個是地熱的問題我們現在發現對環評標準第29條天然氣發電裝置其實雖然污染度比較低但是事實上它還是有污染的可是它的只有在裝置的這個新建裝置容量超過200個MW才要做環評但是我們認為是再生能源的而且屬於這個這個綠能的地熱發電卻要10個MW\n655575\t669664\t就要做環兵這個差距20倍怎麼說得過去呢這個要不要檢討呢是給委員報告我們已經在檢討地熱這一塊因為未來包括剛剛林次長提到的地熱事實上也是我們再生能源下一階段很重要的那什麼時候要提出這個\n671127\t688682\t我們自己本身已經有一個草案這個能源要什麼時候提出來?什麼時候提出來?因為實在差太大了7月底以前會把草案預告7月底嗎?對,7月底以前預告草案那我年底希望能夠修法完成確實有很大問題差20倍一個比較理想的方式但差20倍我認同陳委員的意見\n689423\t712089\t市長這些檢討我希望環境部跟經濟部是能夠緊密合作對的事情我們就要突破想辦法說現有的法規的限制不當的限制那不對的事情像這個鳳林電廠的部分我想這種綠地用綠地農地林地來換取這個再生能源或用光電的這個破壞的環境的做法是不是在政策跟法規上要稍微做一個嚴謹的法關是我們現在在進行的可以嗎是在進行的當中好謝謝市長謝謝陳委員好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請經濟部次長跟能源署署長好來請我們次長跟署長上台\n市長過去主張2025年這個再生能源發電量要達20%但是根據這個圖像這個左方110年度全國電力資源供需的報告卻預估114年才能僅達到15.5%百分比\n所以就是一直沒辦法達到目標然後一直下修這是第一件事第二個2022年3月國發會更是在2050這個近年碳排的路徑中誇口表示2050年將會把再生能源的佔率提高到60到70個百分比\n那2022年這個10月其實立院的預算中心就有表示當時的能源局規劃的目標跟實際上發電的比率實在是差很大就是有做過的提醒再來就是2023年到去年再生能源的發電比率僅佔9.47百分比請問次長你要怎麼在短短的這個兩年內彌補這10.5百分比的一個落差跟這個\n確實短缺呢好謝謝委員我想這個部分是我們所訂定的目標那這個目標達成事實上我們也有一定具體的計畫在往前邁進不要說我們的太陽光電跟這個離岸風電會在這一兩年之間有大量的一個這樣的一個設置跟並往發電尤其是離岸風電的一個部分那我想這個部分就是我們也詳細的推估那事實上以2025年的目標應該並往\n蘇前院長承諾太陽光電在2025年的裝置容量可望達到20GW那經濟部次長曾文森也在去年說這個目標沒有改變可是\n我們卻還是從經濟部能源署的資料網上看到到今年1月為止才是12個GW才6成這個目標根本沒有達到再來就是說我還是再次要呼籲這個貴部沒有辦法兌現的承諾就不要輕易的開公投支票也不要在媒體提供這個不符實情的訊息讓國會以為我們的光電這個發展是進步神速好嗎\n我想這個目標訂定是不是我們要努力的方向那事實上我剛剛報告過我們都有掌握每一年度可以設置的這太陽光墊的一個所要的一個面積或土地以及相關的一個這個實質的一個進展狀況那當然以目前為止截至到113年是並往是12.46GW但是我們有完全掌握到2025的20GW設置的量但是我們就看到不斷的下修嘛\n那再來是不是請環境部部長也上那次長跟請先留步好留步好謝謝\n部長,再生能源的拓展本來是個美意就是希望能夠創造人類永遠經營的一個生存環境那在近年碳排的國家政治上為了減少化石燃料發電所造成的污染所以推動了這個再生能源跟綠能那麼我想請問環境部認同拿林地跟綠地去變成光電廠的這樣的做法嗎?\n我同時就請問部長跟市長\n這個鳳林光電的爭議這個大型開發案闖入了花東縱谷最美麗的一片土地造成這片土地林地被砍發、農地被破壞這樣的行為絲毫不尊重地方發展的意願而且也凸顯我們政府沒有做好這個政策指引就是人民光電廠商想在哪裡開發就在哪裡開發已經嚴重影響這個臺灣曾經引以為傲的一個生態環境\n難道這是我們想要的再生能源嗎?請問部長跟次長是否承諾針對這些業者我們需要更加有限制性的更加強制性的規範呢?我們目前事實上是沒有接到這個案子的一個環評書要審查的部分所以是假如他們有在規劃我想我們會特別來\n但是在我們的環評裡面 事實上我印象中是沒有被判明對 所以他們還沒有送進來 那我再請教次長\n相較於砍樹砍農地這種電性破壞國土環境來換取力能的做法我認為去年行政院提案然後立法院三讀通過的這個再生能源發展條例修法他強制要求剛剛有他為報告一定規模的新建建築物必要裝置屋頂型的太陽光墊或許這是比較適當的一個做法但是我們也知道過去這幾年中央政府到地方政府都有透過補助的方式\n也鼓勵既有的社區大樓是不是能夠利用屋頂來架設這個太陽能光電但是從去年開始有些地方就停止了以台中市為例我這邊有接到陳情就是說有地方有社區有意願架設但是台中市政府說因為中央補助停止了所以他沒有辦法接受這樣的受理陳情所以我想請教的是目前中央對於既有建築物的光電設施補助還在持續嗎你們還在鼓勵地方的政府繼續推動嗎\n我想跟委員報告事實上推動這個太陽光電尤其是這個屋頂型太陽光電事實上我們最主要的一個incentive是短購匯率對這種屋頂型的短購匯率我們會給予比較高的一個這個發電的一個短購匯率即使這才是真正來這個促進業者或者是民眾來設這個屋頂型太陽光電的主力\n那至於補助的部分我所知道是地方政府他們會依地方政府特色來做補助那委員剛剛你提到的部分我們可以來跟地方政府來做更進一步的溝通我讓市長知道說我從能源署太陽光電單一服務窗口的網站我看到目前到就是到去年為止只剩下雙北屏東苗栗10個地方政府還在推動補助計畫那台中新竹縣確實是沒有的所以市長是不是應該跟這些地方政府討論一下繼續進行補助\n就是說讓有意願的社區大樓也能夠有機會加入建築物有光電的這樣的架設行列那你這個溝通可以什麼時候來進行\n我想我請我們那個能源署這邊我了解一下這個進度我們如果安排好再跟委員做一個報告好我需要知道這個進度好再來這個請教次長我要跟您請教地熱發電的部分2022年監察院有一份調查報告針對這個地熱發電的推動進度嚴重的落後要求經濟部跟行政院能夠重視跟檢討那經濟部在2019年有修訂再生能源條例還有發表能源轉型白皮書\n他制定的裝置容量目標是2020年要達到150個MW2025年要達到20MW這個數字是在白皮書裡面但是真相呢?真相呢?好,我們看下一張我上台電的網站去看目前唯一的地熱發展在宜蘭\n到今年2月2月上個月為止數字才0.84MW距離2022年已經過去的政策目標150欸差很大欸差很大欸這個差異高達150倍啊為什麼市長跳票這麼嚴重呢這麼嚴重呢\n我想跟委員報告地熱的這個發電他必須經過探勘其實最主要的部分就是探勘的部分遇到一些這個比較挑戰的一個這樣的一個情形那我們修那個再生能源發展條例也是把探勘的部分能夠來做其實就只有我說嘛就一個承諾一個目標但是後來都是一直在達不到然後下修齁因為這個2019年修過一次法嘛當時這個政策目標就定在那裡但是如果你明知道2019年齁這個修法無法順利推動的話\n但是我要請教這張簡報．這張簡報．\n就是說暗場兼具500公尺的距離這個規範因為因應這個斜景因為穿探的時候不可能是直的嘛就一直這個斜斜的下去那從井頭到這個我們這個井的末端這個所謂的這個開篩段取熱的開篩段往地表應該要進行一個3D的投影有一定的面積計算之後再推開500公尺\n就是說我這個說法對不對就是說為了隔開這個暗場這個說法對不對報告委員這個就是說因為地熱它是有局限性那我們要充分利用那又不要互相影響所以一定要有一個適當的距離那這個適當距離還要再兼顧行政監理上的便利性所以到底是要用暗場周戒還是要用地下的這一個開篩段其實這個我們在討論\n我是想次長跟我說我的問題就來了因為這個根據環保團體的陳情說沒人看得到啦你說上面這個規定寫不夠清楚沒有人看得懂沒有人看得懂所以說是不是在這個草案還沒有公佈之前公佈實施之前能夠適度的修正就是說\n我想對外的溝通我們來做強化\n好那部長最後一個是地熱的問題我們現在發現對環評標準第29條天然氣發電裝置其實雖然污染度比較低但是事實上它還是有污染的可是它的只有在裝置的這個新建裝置容量超過200個MW才要做環評但是我們認為是再生能源的而且屬於這個這個綠能的地熱發電卻要10個MW\n就要做環兵這個差距20倍怎麼說得過去呢這個要不要檢討呢是給委員報告我們已經在檢討地熱這一塊因為未來包括剛剛林次長提到的地熱事實上也是我們再生能源下一階段很重要的那什麼時候要提出這個\n我們自己本身已經有一個草案這個能源要什麼時候提出來?什麼時候提出來?因為實在差太大了7月底以前會把草案預告7月底嗎?對,7月底以前預告草案那我年底希望能夠修法完成確實有很大問題差20倍一個比較理想的方式但差20倍我認同陳委員的意見\n市長這些檢討我希望環境部跟經濟部是能夠緊密合作對的事情我們就要突破想辦法說現有的法規的限制不當的限制那不對的事情像這個鳳林電廠的部分我想這種綠地用綠地農地林地來換取這個再生能源或用光電的這個破壞的環境的做法是不是在政策跟法規上要稍微做一個嚴謹的法關是我們現在在進行的可以嗎是在進行的當中好謝謝市長謝謝陳委員好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.037 --> 00:13.127\n謝謝主席有請經濟部次長跟能源署署長好來請我們次長跟署長上台\n\n00:17.236 --> 00:20.358\n市長過去主張2025年這個再生能源發電量要達20%但是根據這個圖像這個左方110年度全國電力資源供需的報告卻預估114年才能僅達到15.5%百分比\n\n00:37.449 --> 00:55.265\n所以就是一直沒辦法達到目標然後一直下修這是第一件事第二個2022年3月國發會更是在2050這個近年碳排的路徑中誇口表示2050年將會把再生能源的佔率提高到60到70個百分比\n\n00:56.346 --> 01:16.540\n那2022年這個10月其實立院的預算中心就有表示當時的能源局規劃的目標跟實際上發電的比率實在是差很大就是有做過的提醒再來就是2023年到去年再生能源的發電比率僅佔9.47百分比請問次長你要怎麼在短短的這個兩年內彌補這10.5百分比的一個落差跟這個\n\n01:25.117 --> 01:49.795\n確實短缺呢好謝謝委員我想這個部分是我們所訂定的目標那這個目標達成事實上我們也有一定具體的計畫在往前邁進不要說我們的太陽光電跟這個離岸風電會在這一兩年之間有大量的一個這樣的一個設置跟並往發電尤其是離岸風電的一個部分那我想這個部分就是我們也詳細的推估那事實上以2025年的目標應該並往\n\n01:51.816 --> 01:54.419\n蘇前院長承諾太陽光電在2025年的裝置容量可望達到20GW那經濟部次長曾文森也在去年說這個目標沒有改變可是\n\n02:14.798 --> 02:41.963\n我們卻還是從經濟部能源署的資料網上看到到今年1月為止才是12個GW才6成這個目標根本沒有達到再來就是說我還是再次要呼籲這個貴部沒有辦法兌現的承諾就不要輕易的開公投支票也不要在媒體提供這個不符實情的訊息讓國會以為我們的光電這個發展是進步神速好嗎\n\n02:43.407 --> 03:07.383\n我想這個目標訂定是不是我們要努力的方向那事實上我剛剛報告過我們都有掌握每一年度可以設置的這太陽光墊的一個所要的一個面積或土地以及相關的一個這個實質的一個進展狀況那當然以目前為止截至到113年是並往是12.46GW但是我們有完全掌握到2025的20GW設置的量但是我們就看到不斷的下修嘛\n\n03:08.725 --> 03:13.738\n那再來是不是請環境部部長也上那次長跟請先留步好留步好謝謝\n\n03:18.765 --> 03:40.018\n部長,再生能源的拓展本來是個美意就是希望能夠創造人類永遠經營的一個生存環境那在近年碳排的國家政治上為了減少化石燃料發電所造成的污染所以推動了這個再生能源跟綠能那麼我想請問環境部認同拿林地跟綠地去變成光電廠的這樣的做法嗎?\n\n03:41.445 --> 03:42.886\n我同時就請問部長跟市長\n\n03:59.057 --> 04:21.129\n這個鳳林光電的爭議這個大型開發案闖入了花東縱谷最美麗的一片土地造成這片土地林地被砍發、農地被破壞這樣的行為絲毫不尊重地方發展的意願而且也凸顯我們政府沒有做好這個政策指引就是人民光電廠商想在哪裡開發就在哪裡開發已經嚴重影響這個臺灣曾經引以為傲的一個生態環境\n\n04:25.351 --> 04:49.344\n難道這是我們想要的再生能源嗎?請問部長跟次長是否承諾針對這些業者我們需要更加有限制性的更加強制性的規範呢?我們目前事實上是沒有接到這個案子的一個環評書要審查的部分所以是假如他們有在規劃我想我們會特別來\n\n04:49.924 --> 04:52.666\n但是在我們的環評裡面事實上我印象中是沒有被判明對所以他們還沒有送進來那我再請教次長\n\n05:16.044 --> 05:43.140\n相較於砍樹砍農地這種電性破壞國土環境來換取力能的做法我認為去年行政院提案然後立法院三讀通過的這個再生能源發展條例修法他強制要求剛剛有他為報告一定規模的新建建築物必要裝置屋頂型的太陽光墊或許這是比較適當的一個做法但是我們也知道過去這幾年中央政府到地方政府都有透過補助的方式\n\n05:43.840 --> 06:12.542\n也鼓勵既有的社區大樓是不是能夠利用屋頂來架設這個太陽能光電但是從去年開始有些地方就停止了以台中市為例我這邊有接到陳情就是說有地方有社區有意願架設但是台中市政府說因為中央補助停止了所以他沒有辦法接受這樣的受理陳情所以我想請教的是目前中央對於既有建築物的光電設施補助還在持續嗎你們還在鼓勵地方的政府繼續推動嗎\n\n06:14.161 --> 06:35.429\n我想跟委員報告事實上推動這個太陽光電尤其是這個屋頂型太陽光電事實上我們最主要的一個incentive是短購匯率對這種屋頂型的短購匯率我們會給予比較高的一個這個發電的一個短購匯率即使這才是真正來這個促進業者或者是民眾來設這個屋頂型太陽光電的主力\n\n06:35.789 --> 06:54.157\n那至於補助的部分我所知道是地方政府他們會依地方政府特色來做補助那委員剛剛你提到的部分我們可以來跟地方政府來做更進一步的溝通我讓市長知道說我從能源署太陽光電單一服務窗口的網站我看到目前到就是到去年為止只剩下雙北屏東苗栗10個地方政府還在推動補助計畫那台中新竹縣確實是沒有的所以市長是不是應該跟這些地方政府討論一下繼續進行補助\n\n07:03.101 --> 07:10.815\n就是說讓有意願的社區大樓也能夠有機會加入建築物有光電的這樣的架設行列那你這個溝通可以什麼時候來進行\n\n07:12.159 --> 07:37.436\n我想我請我們那個能源署這邊我了解一下這個進度我們如果安排好再跟委員做一個報告好我需要知道這個進度好再來這個請教次長我要跟您請教地熱發電的部分2022年監察院有一份調查報告針對這個地熱發電的推動進度嚴重的落後要求經濟部跟行政院能夠重視跟檢討那經濟部在2019年有修訂再生能源條例還有發表能源轉型白皮書\n\n07:38.297 --> 07:57.326\n他制定的裝置容量目標是2020年要達到150個MW2025年要達到20MW這個數字是在白皮書裡面但是真相呢?真相呢?好,我們看下一張我上台電的網站去看目前唯一的地熱發展在宜蘭\n\n07:58.507 --> 08:03.171\n到今年2月2月上個月為止數字才0.84MW距離2022年已經過去的政策目標150欸差很大欸差很大欸這個差異高達150倍啊為什麼市長跳票這麼嚴重呢這麼嚴重呢\n\n08:17.608 --> 08:41.994\n我想跟委員報告地熱的這個發電他必須經過探勘其實最主要的部分就是探勘的部分遇到一些這個比較挑戰的一個這樣的一個情形那我們修那個再生能源發展條例也是把探勘的部分能夠來做其實就只有我說嘛就一個承諾一個目標但是後來都是一直在達不到然後下修齁因為這個2019年修過一次法嘛當時這個政策目標就定在那裡但是如果你明知道2019年齁這個修法無法順利推動的話\n\n08:44.935 --> 08:45.095\n但是我要請教這張簡報．這張簡報．\n\n09:11.644 --> 09:16.369\n就是說暗場兼具500公尺的距離這個規範因為因應這個斜景因為穿探的時候不可能是直的嘛就一直這個斜斜的下去那從井頭到這個我們這個井的末端這個所謂的這個開篩段取熱的開篩段往地表應該要進行一個3D的投影有一定的面積計算之後再推開500公尺\n\n09:34.108 --> 09:56.784\n就是說我這個說法對不對就是說為了隔開這個暗場這個說法對不對報告委員這個就是說因為地熱它是有局限性那我們要充分利用那又不要互相影響所以一定要有一個適當的距離那這個適當距離還要再兼顧行政監理上的便利性所以到底是要用暗場周戒還是要用地下的這一個開篩段其實這個我們在討論\n\n09:57.244 --> 10:14.895\n我是想次長跟我說我的問題就來了因為這個根據環保團體的陳情說沒人看得到啦你說上面這個規定寫不夠清楚沒有人看得懂沒有人看得懂所以說是不是在這個草案還沒有公佈之前公佈實施之前能夠適度的修正就是說\n\n10:15.976 --> 10:16.717\n我想對外的溝通我們來做強化\n\n10:32.219 --> 10:52.833\n好那部長最後一個是地熱的問題我們現在發現對環評標準第29條天然氣發電裝置其實雖然污染度比較低但是事實上它還是有污染的可是它的只有在裝置的這個新建裝置容量超過200個MW才要做環評但是我們認為是再生能源的而且屬於這個這個綠能的地熱發電卻要10個MW\n\n10:55.575 --> 11:09.664\n就要做環兵這個差距20倍怎麼說得過去呢這個要不要檢討呢是給委員報告我們已經在檢討地熱這一塊因為未來包括剛剛林次長提到的地熱事實上也是我們再生能源下一階段很重要的那什麼時候要提出這個\n\n11:11.127 --> 11:28.682\n我們自己本身已經有一個草案這個能源要什麼時候提出來?什麼時候提出來?因為實在差太大了7月底以前會把草案預告7月底嗎?對,7月底以前預告草案那我年底希望能夠修法完成確實有很大問題差20倍一個比較理想的方式但差20倍我認同陳委員的意見\n\n11:29.423 --> 11:52.089\n市長這些檢討我希望環境部跟經濟部是能夠緊密合作對的事情我們就要突破想辦法說現有的法規的限制不當的限制那不對的事情像這個鳳林電廠的部分我想這種綠地用綠地農地林地來換取這個再生能源或用光電的這個破壞的環境的做法是不是在政策跟法規上要稍微做一個嚴謹的法關是我們現在在進行的可以嗎是在進行的當中好謝謝市長謝謝陳委員好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.037,"end":13.127,"text":"謝謝主席有請經濟部次長跟能源署署長好來請我們次長跟署長上台"},{"start":17.236,"end":20.358,"text":"市長過去主張2025年這個再生能源發電量要達20%但是根據這個圖像這個左方110年度全國電力資源供需的報告卻預估114年才能僅達到15.5%百分比"},{"start":37.449,"end":55.265,"text":"所以就是一直沒辦法達到目標然後一直下修這是第一件事第二個2022年3月國發會更是在2050這個近年碳排的路徑中誇口表示2050年將會把再生能源的佔率提高到60到70個百分比"},{"start":56.346,"end":76.54,"text":"那2022年這個10月其實立院的預算中心就有表示當時的能源局規劃的目標跟實際上發電的比率實在是差很大就是有做過的提醒再來就是2023年到去年再生能源的發電比率僅佔9.47百分比請問次長你要怎麼在短短的這個兩年內彌補這10.5百分比的一個落差跟這個"},{"start":85.117,"end":109.795,"text":"確實短缺呢好謝謝委員我想這個部分是我們所訂定的目標那這個目標達成事實上我們也有一定具體的計畫在往前邁進不要說我們的太陽光電跟這個離岸風電會在這一兩年之間有大量的一個這樣的一個設置跟並往發電尤其是離岸風電的一個部分那我想這個部分就是我們也詳細的推估那事實上以2025年的目標應該並往"},{"start":111.816,"end":114.419,"text":"蘇前院長承諾太陽光電在2025年的裝置容量可望達到20GW那經濟部次長曾文森也在去年說這個目標沒有改變可是"},{"start":134.798,"end":161.963,"text":"我們卻還是從經濟部能源署的資料網上看到到今年1月為止才是12個GW才6成這個目標根本沒有達到再來就是說我還是再次要呼籲這個貴部沒有辦法兌現的承諾就不要輕易的開公投支票也不要在媒體提供這個不符實情的訊息讓國會以為我們的光電這個發展是進步神速好嗎"},{"start":163.407,"end":187.383,"text":"我想這個目標訂定是不是我們要努力的方向那事實上我剛剛報告過我們都有掌握每一年度可以設置的這太陽光墊的一個所要的一個面積或土地以及相關的一個這個實質的一個進展狀況那當然以目前為止截至到113年是並往是12.46GW但是我們有完全掌握到2025的20GW設置的量但是我們就看到不斷的下修嘛"},{"start":188.725,"end":193.738,"text":"那再來是不是請環境部部長也上那次長跟請先留步好留步好謝謝"},{"start":198.765,"end":220.018,"text":"部長,再生能源的拓展本來是個美意就是希望能夠創造人類永遠經營的一個生存環境那在近年碳排的國家政治上為了減少化石燃料發電所造成的污染所以推動了這個再生能源跟綠能那麼我想請問環境部認同拿林地跟綠地去變成光電廠的這樣的做法嗎?"},{"start":221.445,"end":222.886,"text":"我同時就請問部長跟市長"},{"start":239.057,"end":261.129,"text":"這個鳳林光電的爭議這個大型開發案闖入了花東縱谷最美麗的一片土地造成這片土地林地被砍發、農地被破壞這樣的行為絲毫不尊重地方發展的意願而且也凸顯我們政府沒有做好這個政策指引就是人民光電廠商想在哪裡開發就在哪裡開發已經嚴重影響這個臺灣曾經引以為傲的一個生態環境"},{"start":265.351,"end":289.344,"text":"難道這是我們想要的再生能源嗎?請問部長跟次長是否承諾針對這些業者我們需要更加有限制性的更加強制性的規範呢?我們目前事實上是沒有接到這個案子的一個環評書要審查的部分所以是假如他們有在規劃我想我們會特別來"},{"start":289.924,"end":292.666,"text":"但是在我們的環評裡面 事實上我印象中是沒有被判明對 所以他們還沒有送進來 那我再請教次長"},{"start":316.044,"end":343.14,"text":"相較於砍樹砍農地這種電性破壞國土環境來換取力能的做法我認為去年行政院提案然後立法院三讀通過的這個再生能源發展條例修法他強制要求剛剛有他為報告一定規模的新建建築物必要裝置屋頂型的太陽光墊或許這是比較適當的一個做法但是我們也知道過去這幾年中央政府到地方政府都有透過補助的方式"},{"start":343.84,"end":372.542,"text":"也鼓勵既有的社區大樓是不是能夠利用屋頂來架設這個太陽能光電但是從去年開始有些地方就停止了以台中市為例我這邊有接到陳情就是說有地方有社區有意願架設但是台中市政府說因為中央補助停止了所以他沒有辦法接受這樣的受理陳情所以我想請教的是目前中央對於既有建築物的光電設施補助還在持續嗎你們還在鼓勵地方的政府繼續推動嗎"},{"start":374.161,"end":395.429,"text":"我想跟委員報告事實上推動這個太陽光電尤其是這個屋頂型太陽光電事實上我們最主要的一個incentive是短購匯率對這種屋頂型的短購匯率我們會給予比較高的一個這個發電的一個短購匯率即使這才是真正來這個促進業者或者是民眾來設這個屋頂型太陽光電的主力"},{"start":395.789,"end":414.157,"text":"那至於補助的部分我所知道是地方政府他們會依地方政府特色來做補助那委員剛剛你提到的部分我們可以來跟地方政府來做更進一步的溝通我讓市長知道說我從能源署太陽光電單一服務窗口的網站我看到目前到就是到去年為止只剩下雙北屏東苗栗10個地方政府還在推動補助計畫那台中新竹縣確實是沒有的所以市長是不是應該跟這些地方政府討論一下繼續進行補助"},{"start":423.101,"end":430.815,"text":"就是說讓有意願的社區大樓也能夠有機會加入建築物有光電的這樣的架設行列那你這個溝通可以什麼時候來進行"},{"start":432.159,"end":457.436,"text":"我想我請我們那個能源署這邊我了解一下這個進度我們如果安排好再跟委員做一個報告好我需要知道這個進度好再來這個請教次長我要跟您請教地熱發電的部分2022年監察院有一份調查報告針對這個地熱發電的推動進度嚴重的落後要求經濟部跟行政院能夠重視跟檢討那經濟部在2019年有修訂再生能源條例還有發表能源轉型白皮書"},{"start":458.297,"end":477.326,"text":"他制定的裝置容量目標是2020年要達到150個MW2025年要達到20MW這個數字是在白皮書裡面但是真相呢?真相呢?好,我們看下一張我上台電的網站去看目前唯一的地熱發展在宜蘭"},{"start":478.507,"end":483.171,"text":"到今年2月2月上個月為止數字才0.84MW距離2022年已經過去的政策目標150欸差很大欸差很大欸這個差異高達150倍啊為什麼市長跳票這麼嚴重呢這麼嚴重呢"},{"start":497.608,"end":521.994,"text":"我想跟委員報告地熱的這個發電他必須經過探勘其實最主要的部分就是探勘的部分遇到一些這個比較挑戰的一個這樣的一個情形那我們修那個再生能源發展條例也是把探勘的部分能夠來做其實就只有我說嘛就一個承諾一個目標但是後來都是一直在達不到然後下修齁因為這個2019年修過一次法嘛當時這個政策目標就定在那裡但是如果你明知道2019年齁這個修法無法順利推動的話"},{"start":524.935,"end":525.095,"text":"但是我要請教這張簡報．這張簡報．"},{"start":551.644,"end":556.369,"text":"就是說暗場兼具500公尺的距離這個規範因為因應這個斜景因為穿探的時候不可能是直的嘛就一直這個斜斜的下去那從井頭到這個我們這個井的末端這個所謂的這個開篩段取熱的開篩段往地表應該要進行一個3D的投影有一定的面積計算之後再推開500公尺"},{"start":574.108,"end":596.784,"text":"就是說我這個說法對不對就是說為了隔開這個暗場這個說法對不對報告委員這個就是說因為地熱它是有局限性那我們要充分利用那又不要互相影響所以一定要有一個適當的距離那這個適當距離還要再兼顧行政監理上的便利性所以到底是要用暗場周戒還是要用地下的這一個開篩段其實這個我們在討論"},{"start":597.244,"end":614.895,"text":"我是想次長跟我說我的問題就來了因為這個根據環保團體的陳情說沒人看得到啦你說上面這個規定寫不夠清楚沒有人看得懂沒有人看得懂所以說是不是在這個草案還沒有公佈之前公佈實施之前能夠適度的修正就是說"},{"start":615.976,"end":616.717,"text":"我想對外的溝通我們來做強化"},{"start":632.219,"end":652.833,"text":"好那部長最後一個是地熱的問題我們現在發現對環評標準第29條天然氣發電裝置其實雖然污染度比較低但是事實上它還是有污染的可是它的只有在裝置的這個新建裝置容量超過200個MW才要做環評但是我們認為是再生能源的而且屬於這個這個綠能的地熱發電卻要10個MW"},{"start":655.575,"end":669.664,"text":"就要做環兵這個差距20倍怎麼說得過去呢這個要不要檢討呢是給委員報告我們已經在檢討地熱這一塊因為未來包括剛剛林次長提到的地熱事實上也是我們再生能源下一階段很重要的那什麼時候要提出這個"},{"start":671.127,"end":688.682,"text":"我們自己本身已經有一個草案這個能源要什麼時候提出來?什麼時候提出來?因為實在差太大了7月底以前會把草案預告7月底嗎?對,7月底以前預告草案那我年底希望能夠修法完成確實有很大問題差20倍一個比較理想的方式但差20倍我認同陳委員的意見"},{"start":689.423,"end":712.089,"text":"市長這些檢討我希望環境部跟經濟部是能夠緊密合作對的事情我們就要突破想辦法說現有的法規的限制不當的限制那不對的事情像這個鳳林電廠的部分我想這種綠地用綠地農地林地來換取這個再生能源或用光電的這個破壞的環境的做法是不是在政策跟法規上要稍微做一個嚴謹的法關是我們現在在進行的可以嗎是在進行的當中好謝謝市長謝謝陳委員好謝謝"}]}}}}