{"id":150205,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150205","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc30526be29f90162e6865fc681ffd8597cae2f8ba9b0039caa7a6b22339bbe58c964b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"09:50:03 - 10:04:26","影片長度":"00:14:23","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-8"},"date":"2024-03-21","duration":863,"end_time":"2024-03-21T10:04:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-21T09:50:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":76,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時50分）謝謝主席，麻煩請局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，馬委員早。"],["馬委員文君：局長早，大家早。今天其實我們人數非常多，這一次的會議也是這一屆的會期開始我們第一次有秘密會議。大家對秘密會議可能有特別比較不同的印象，去年年底的時候可能因為機密會議裡面的一些方式，比如要不要簽署保密協定等等，雖然那時候沒有規定，委員會大家也是共識的部分，在國家的法律裡面已經有規範所有的相關人員，不管是公職人員也好、包括民意代表也好，應該要遵守的法令規定已經有相關的規範，可是如果委員認為應該要對於民意代表限制更多，對於被監督的行政單位，甚至它提出我們要簽署文件的時候，我們都應該要簽署，既然大家都有這樣的共識，我們也配合，即使如果我們的共識是包括進來參與開會的時候要有一定的服裝，比如要白上衣、黑長褲等等，其實我們都可以配合。就這個部分，我們想要藉這個機會，因為剛剛機密會議也開了，我們所有的現場狀況大概也是這個樣子，如果有很嚴重的違失行為，我們都希望可以當場指出來，因為我們看一看這個臉書的資料是王定宇召委在2019年3月28號時所發表的，為什麼我今天特別提出來這一個臉書，是因為之前不管在政論節目也好、週刊也好，很多的繪聲繪影說我們在機密會議時進進出出，本來說還有拿著手機，後來發現手機應該要放在外面，所以又改成二哥大，老實說，本席從來沒有拿過二哥大，剛剛我還問了一下秘書，他的是哪一種，既然大家會有這樣的一個疑慮時，我們看一看王定宇召委那一天在這個機密會議上面他所說的內容，那是早上開完會他當天發布的臉書內容：『今天上午定宇主持「潛艦國造進度專案報告」，採取最高等級祕密會議進行，除與會人員簽署保密文書外，會議室在昨天、今天會議前，都由國會資安人員進行檢查，會議圓滿結束。可以跟國人報告的是，台灣自製潛艦終於邁進一大步，從「合約設計」階段，正式進入「細部設計」階段，構型將採「X尾舵」的3.0B版，可望在2024年3月，首艘潛艦下水。』","我為什麼特別提這個，當你在印象最深刻的時候，早上剛開完會，他當天發表的臉書資料應該是最正確的，可是在經過3、4年以後，有很多很多的傳言，因為機密會議裡面不會有錄影，所以到底應該要提出一個什麼樣的證明、佐證，我們現在希望大家有這個共識後，以後大家就按規定來，我們依法行政，以後立法院就按照這樣一個程序，尤其國安單位，我想你們應該在這個部分會更嚴謹的遵守，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["馬委員文君：尤其是有委員提案的部分，我們就按照這樣來進行。","接下來。我想要請教的是這個十幾億的預算，因為只用一張紙帶過，我們現在看到這個公開預算，裡面雖然有好幾篇，我們國安局的預算總共大概70億左右，其中祕密預算大概60億，公開的預算也有十幾億，其實還可能包含一些相關的人員訓練、買裝備、設施整建等等，可是這十幾億的說明真的太簡單，所以我們希望局長以後在這個部分應該讓所有的委員，尤其我們有很多新的委員，大家對於整個國安局現在在進行的方向，不僅是研析，因為研析有很多，我們看了好幾頁，這個在媒體、甚至外媒其實都可以看得到，我們更希望知道的是國安局的相關業務，到底編了這些預算是怎麼運用的？未來、今年的發展重點到底是什麼？應該要著墨多一點，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。這部分也跟委員說明一下，我記得在上一屆立法院去年第2會期在審查預算的時候，我們針對公開預算的部分都有在貴委員會做非常詳盡的說明，我記得當天的詢答過程當中，也對於各種預算的運用，我們都有解釋相關的用途。"],["馬委員文君：這是公開的部分，十幾億我們就看到一張紙，我不知道，大家看到這個部分，其實也可以看得到我們十幾億到底怎麼用，沒關係，我現在想要請教一下局長，因為剛剛我們說就公開的部分和機密的部分，其實我們大概都沒有把預算的重點發展或者業務概況、要做什麼的重點，並沒有很明確的說明跟報告，因為剛剛的機密報告裡面也是一樣，今天公開的報告也是一樣。","我想請教一下，就我們國安局，比如我們有很多，像一些機敏的設施或者像一些安全防護設備等等，這些我們比較忌諱的對象或條件是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這部分事實上在每一個年度預算審查的過程當中，除了剛剛有跟委員提到的，在公開預算的部分會來這邊詢答，解釋每一個細項的運用以外，在機密報告的部分，相關的預算也都有在貴委員會指定的會議室來進行陳列，當然能夠進去看機密預算的只有委員本人，所以這部分假如委員去看了機密預算，任何項目有任何的問題，國安局都……"],["馬委員文君：局長，因為今天很多都是……我們在委員會裡面，國民黨委員、民進黨委員，其實資深的大概就只有本席跟王定宇召委，其他的委員他們根本過去沒有看過機密資料，其實對預算並不清楚，所以本來我們期待在這一次的報告裡面應該要做一些說明，讓所有的委員都清楚瞭解我們國安單位執行、執掌的任務應該是什麼？我們的預算執行的重點發展的業務到底是什麼？這個才是應該要做的報告。"],["蔡局長明彥：應該的，跟委員說明一下，一般在年度的第1個會期，跟委員做說明跟報告的是年度工作計畫，到了第2會期我們來做報告的時候，就會把各項的預算執行的成果包括……"],["馬委員文君：局長，我不是要成果啦！你今天的業務報告就是要讓大家知道，因為你花很多時間在做研析，這些研析我們從媒體看得出來，本席只是先提醒，你們過去要求說要公開的詢答跟報告，所以你就應該讓所有委員知道，而不是讓大家看一些相關在媒體報章都已經可以看到的資訊，可能國安單位很多相關的承辦人員必須要寫這些東西，結果你可以讓大家瞭解的少之又少，這是特別提出來的部分。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重委員的建議。"],["馬委員文君：這個部分我們希望未來可以做一些調整。","請海巡署長。要特別再詢問，根據媒體報導17日有兩名金門的釣客搭船出海釣魚，在北碇島迷航漂流到大陸福建外海，被大陸海警救起，在這裡我想要請教署長的是，國人出海釣魚有沒有需要向安檢所申請登記？"],["周署長美伍：他這一次所搭乘的是波特船，波特船是屬於水域遊憩活動管理的部分，交通局有明文規定，同時它也不屬於一般的船舶法所謂的船舶，交通部解釋波特船是浮具而非船舶，所以有關這個管理，交通部有律定一個水域遊憩管理辦法，地方政府要依據這個管理辦法訂定它的範圍及其所做的這些規範，有關地方政府，據我所知這一次金門縣政府並沒有禁止波特船在這樣的岸邊進行釣魚活動。"],["馬委員文君：岸邊？"],["周署長美伍：就是岸際。"],["馬委員文君：可是他已經漂到福建外海。"],["周署長美伍：那是因為那一天的能見度不到50碼，最好的狀況是200碼。"],["馬委員文君：署長，我們今天要探討的不是只有那一天的能見度，如果是這樣子的狀況，大家俗稱的波特船，出海沒有嚴格管制，所以其實像這種波特船，有點像是大家認定的，就是所謂的三無船……"],["周署長美伍：報告委員，我必須要更正，它跟三無船完全不一樣。"],["馬委員文君：不太一樣？"],["周署長美伍：它不是船舶，它是浮具。"],["馬委員文君：你說的是浮具，可是它載了人，對不對？"],["周署長美伍：是。"],["馬委員文君：現在你要把它當成浮具或者船舶都沒有關係，可是事實上它載了人，然後都是去釣魚，我們現在要談的這個部分，因為在金廈水域的三無船事件，它進到我們的限制水域了，我們非常支持該執法的時候，我們一定是海巡的後盾，不管發生什麼樣的狀況，依法行政其實是對的。"],["周署長美伍：是。"],["馬委員文君：可是我們現在在探討的是類似這一種，你要叫它……它就是什麼都沒有，你說它是浮具，可是它載了人，現在我們可以很確定的，海巡署當時在大陸三無船事件時，我們是依權責前往取締，所以很明顯的我們可以掌握這些由外向內的不明船舶的動向，對不對？"],["周署長美伍：是，沒錯。"],["馬委員文君：可是如果由內向外整個海域的狀況，我們有掌握嗎？"],["周署長美伍：當然，我們有岸際的安檢所，我們都有掌握，也都能掌握。"],["馬委員文君：所以像他們這樣子，因為有人在海上漂，不管他坐什麼，船舶也好或者浮具也好，他已經漂出去了，我們都不用掌握？因為如果這涉嫌到走私或者甚至有包括偷渡等等，其實也會有這類的問題。"],["周署長美伍：當然，會有這個顧慮。"],["馬委員文君：那像這樣我們怎麼管制？"],["周署長美伍：我們一定是運用我們岸際雷達巡邏、紅外線或者是相關的這些高倍望遠鏡，以及海上巡邏的網次，不管是從岸際……"],["馬委員文君：那他們兩位……"],["周署長美伍：我特別再強調一遍，當天是低視界，也就是大霧，那天他迷失的時候最好狀況是200碼，那麼最差的時候是50碼……"],["馬委員文君：所以我們沒有發現的意思？"],["周署長美伍：我們聽到家屬報案之後，馬上就派船出去，但是您知道50碼大概就只可以看到那個門那邊，所以我們要尋找他很困難，他個人本身也看不到光，我們在島上用了很多強束的光，一直向海面打，希望能夠給他指引。"],["馬委員文君：署長，沒有關係，我知道，我們要救援也好，或者什麼樣的處置作為，在緊急狀況的時候，那個我們沒有意見……"],["周署長美伍：都會，我們都會有……"],["馬委員文君：你們一定是專業的，可是我們今天要討論的不是這個部分，包括國安單位、包括所有情治系統的相關單位跟人員，今天其實都在這裡，我們今天要討論的是如果發生這種現象，因為它並不是船舶，可是它又是浮具，類似這樣的情況，這其中兩個人本來已經可以回來了，被大陸海警救起來以後，他們兩個本來可以回來，結果其中一個具備軍人的身分，又被留下來了，我們現在要知道的是，到底到最後這個會發生什麼樣的狀況？","去年在金門二膽上兵失蹤的時候，他到底被認定是逃兵或者什麼其他的狀況？因為時間的關係，這個也不是你們的權責，可是不斷不斷地在發生類似情形的情況之下，這對我們整體的海域跟周邊的安全會不會有什麼影響？這是我們今天特別要提出來的，這個部分我們到底要怎麼樣因應，然後未來要怎麼樣防止？或者像這樣身分特殊的人員，他們現在後續是什麼樣的處置？時間可能沒有辦法讓你們回答，我請國安局這邊也把後續的進度跟方向，讓本席或者我們委員會可以知道，也請海巡可以注意這個部分，好不好？"],["周署長美伍：是，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：提供相關的資料給本席還有我們委員會，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請羅美玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","林楚茵","洪申翰","賴士葆","陳冠廷","邱志偉","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃仁","黃捷"],"page_start":1,"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\"text\": \"那接下來我想要請教的是這個十幾億的預算因為我們用一張紙帶過我們現在看到我們的公開的預算裡面我們有好幾篇那我們的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 258.188, \"end\": 258.428, \"score\": 0.682}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 258.428, \"end\": 258.569, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 258.569, \"end\": 259.289, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 259.289, \"end\": 259.41, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 259.41, \"end\": 260.111, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 260.111, \"end\": 260.131, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 260.131, \"end\": 260.331, \"score\": 0.674}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 260.331, \"end\": 260.531, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 260.531, \"end\": 262.614, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 262.614, \"end\": 263.455, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 263.455, \"end\": 263.955, 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\"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 267.8, \"end\": 269.082, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 269.082, \"end\": 269.462, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 269.462, \"end\": 269.783, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 269.783, \"end\": 270.143, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 270.143, \"end\": 270.163, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 270.163, \"end\": 270.324, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 270.324, \"end\": 270.444, \"score\": 0.427}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 270.444, \"end\": 270.464, \"score\": 0.092}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"篇\", \"start\": 270.464, \"end\": 271.044, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 271.044, \"end\": 271.065, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 271.065, \"end\": 271.125, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 271.125, \"end\": 271.145, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 275.65, \"end\": 295.541, \"text\": \"國安局的預算總共大概70億左右其中秘密秘密的一個預算大概60億公開的預算有十幾億那公開預算其實我們還包含了可能一些相關的包括人員訓練買裝備設施整建等等可是我們的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 275.65, \"end\": 275.77, \"score\": 0.58}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 275.77, \"end\": 275.89, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 275.89, \"end\": 276.23, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 276.23, \"end\": 277.091, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 277.091, \"end\": 277.291, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 277.291, \"end\": 277.411, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 277.411, \"end\": 278.232, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"左\", \"start\": 278.232, \"end\": 278.452, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"右\", \"start\": 278.452, \"end\": 279.052, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 279.052, \"end\": 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\"點\"}]}, {\"start\": 365.071, \"end\": 365.111, \"text\": \"：馬文君\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"：\"}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 365.071, \"end\": 365.091, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"君\", \"start\": 365.091, \"end\": 365.111, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 388.746, \"end\": 389.087, \"text\": \"對象或條件是什麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"象\", \"start\": 388.746, \"end\": 388.927, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 388.927, \"end\": 388.947, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 388.947, \"end\": 389.047, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 389.047, \"end\": 389.067, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 389.067, \"end\": 389.087, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}]}, {\"start\": 397.661, \"end\": 424.768, \"text\": \"對 這部分事實上在每一個年度的預算審查的過程當中我們除了剛剛有跟委員提到的在公開預算的部分會來這邊詢答解釋每一個細項的運用以外在機密報告的部分我們相關的預算也都有在貴委員會指定的會議室來進行陳列那當然能夠進去看機密預算的只有委員本人所以這部分假如委員去看了機密預算任何的項目有任何問題 國安局都因為今天很多都是我們在委員會裡面\", \"words\": 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\"end\": 446.695, \"text\": \"國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員其實就資深的大概就只有本席跟王定宇遭委所以其他的委員其實他們根本過去沒有看過機密資料也其實對預算其實並不清楚所以本來我們期待在這一次的報告裡面其實應該要做一些說明讓所有的委員都清楚了解我們國安\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 426.408, \"end\": 426.688, \"score\": 0.547}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 426.688, \"end\": 426.808, \"score\": 0.675}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 426.808, \"end\": 427.168, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 427.168, \"end\": 427.309, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 427.309, \"end\": 427.609, \"score\": 0.594}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 427.609, \"end\": 427.969, \"score\": 0.692}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 427.969, \"end\": 428.329, \"score\": 0.635}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 428.329, \"end\": 429.089, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"深\", \"start\": 429.089, \"end\": 429.309, \"score\": 0.625}, 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\"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 857.559, \"end\": 857.699, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 857.699, \"end\": 857.88, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 857.88, \"end\": 858.42, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 858.42, \"end\": 858.5, \"score\": 0.544}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 858.5, \"end\": 859.281, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 859.281, \"end\": 859.481, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 859.481, \"end\": 859.821, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 859.821, \"end\": 859.901, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 859.901, \"end\": 860.081, \"score\": 0.569}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 860.081, \"end\": 860.102, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,563 --> 00:00:04,189\n謝主席麻煩請局長請蔡局長\n\n2\n00:00:12,984 --> 00:00:24,031\n好謝謝主席馬文早局長早大家早今天其實我們人數非常多那也是這一次的會議這一屆的會期開始我們第一次有這個秘密會議那大家對秘密會議可能有特別比較不同的印象\n\n3\n00:00:31,756 --> 00:00:51,097\n至於在去年年底的時候吧那時候可能因為機密會議裡面的一些方式比如說要不要簽署保密協定等等那雖然那時候沒有規定因為如果說委員會大概大家也是共識的部分\n\n4\n00:00:52,188 --> 00:01:13,130\n雖然在國家的法律裡面已經有規範所有的相關人員不管是公職人員也好包括民意代表也好應該要有的這些遵守的法令規定其實都有已經有相關的規範可是如果委員認為說應該要限制對於民意代表限制更多在對於\n\n5\n00:01:15,455 --> 00:01:15,655\n：馬文君\n\n6\n00:01:36,195 --> 00:01:40,600\n那就這個部分我們想要藉這個機會因為剛剛機密會議也開了我們所有的現場狀況大概也是這個樣子如果有很嚴重的為師的行為我們都希望可以當場指出來因為我們看一看這個是\n\n7\n00:01:55,237 --> 00:01:59,741\n這個臉書的資料是王定宇召委在2019年3月28號的時候他所發表的臉書這個臉書為什麼今天特別提出來是因為之前在不管政論節目也好在周刊也好很多的會聲會影說我們在精密會議的時候進進出出還有拿著本來說手機後來\n\n8\n00:02:21,977 --> 00:02:42,811\n發現手機應該要放在外面所以又改成二哥大老實說有本席從來沒有拿過二哥大剛剛我還問了一下祕書他的是哪一種那既然大家會有這樣子的一個疑慮的時候我們看一看王定宇委員王定宇召委那一天在這個機密會議上面\n\n9\n00:02:44,005 --> 00:03:09,226\n他所說的內容那是早上開完會他當天發布的臉書的內容今天上午定於主持潛艦國造進度專案報告採取最高等級的秘密會議進行除與會人員簽署保密文書外會議是在昨天今天會議前都由國會資安人員進行檢查會議圓滿結束\n\n10\n00:03:11,348 --> 00:03:16,913\n可以跟國委員報告的是這個臺灣自製潛艦終於邁進一大步從合約式設計階段進入細部設計階段構型將採X型尾舵的3.0B版可望在2024年3月首艘潛艦下水\n\n11\n00:03:32,345 --> 00:03:55,872\n為什麼特別提這個當你在印象最深刻的時候早上剛開完會他當天發表的臉書資料應該是最正確的可是在經過三四年以後有很多很多的傳言因為機密會議裡面不會有錄影所以到底應該要提出什麼樣的一個證明的一個佐證不要\n\n12\n00:03:57,592 --> 00:04:16,004\n所以我們現在希望大家有這個共識以後以後大家就按規定來我們依法行政以後立法院就按照這樣的一個程序那尤其國安單位我想你們應該在這個部分會遵守的更嚴謹嘛對不對尤其是有委員提案的部分我們就按照這樣來進行\n\n13\n00:04:18,188 --> 00:04:31,145\n那接下來我想要請教的是這個十幾億的預算因為我們用一張紙帶過我們現在看到我們的公開的預算裡面我們有好幾篇那我們的\n\n14\n00:04:35,650 --> 00:04:55,541\n國安局的預算總共大概70億左右其中秘密秘密的一個預算大概60億公開的預算有十幾億那公開預算其實我們還包含了可能一些相關的包括人員訓練買裝備設施整建等等可是我們的\n\n15\n00:04:57,316 --> 00:05:21,786\n說明十幾億真的太簡單所以我們希望局長以後在這個部分應該讓所有的委員尤其我們有很多新的委員是不是大家對於整個國安局現在在進行的一個方向不僅是延期因為延期有很多我們看了好幾頁這個在媒體甚至外媒其實都可以看得到我們更希望知道的是國安局的相關業務到底我們編了這些預算我們到底是怎麼運用然後未來\n\n16\n00:05:25,888 --> 00:05:47,541\n他的今年的發展重點到底是什麼應該要著墨多一點對不對有有這部分的也跟我們說明一下我記得在上一屆的立法院去年的第二會期在審查預算的時候我們針對我們公開預算的部分都有在貴委員會做非常詳盡的說明那我記得當天的尋討過程當中也對於各種預算的運用我們都有解釋相關的用途\n\n17\n00:05:48,421 --> 00:05:51,863\n這是公開的部分十幾億我們就看到一張紙我不知道大家看到這個部分其實可以看得到我們十幾億到底怎麼用那沒關係我現在想要請教一下局長因為剛剛我們說就公開的部分還有機密的部分其實我們大概都沒有把預算的重點\n\n18\n00:06:05,071 --> 00:06:05,111\n：馬文君\n\n19\n00:06:28,746 --> 00:06:29,087\n對象或條件是什麼\n\n20\n00:06:37,661 --> 00:07:04,768\n對這部分事實上在每一個年度的預算審查的過程當中我們除了剛剛有跟委員提到的在公開預算的部分會來這邊詢答解釋每一個細項的運用以外在機密報告的部分我們相關的預算也都有在貴委員會指定的會議室來進行陳列那當然能夠進去看機密預算的只有委員本人所以這部分假如委員去看了機密預算任何的項目有任何問題國安局都因為今天很多都是我們在委員會裡面\n\n21\n00:07:06,408 --> 00:07:26,695\n國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員其實就資深的大概就只有本席跟王定宇遭委所以其他的委員其實他們根本過去沒有看過機密資料也其實對預算其實並不清楚所以本來我們期待在這一次的報告裡面其實應該要做一些說明讓所有的委員都清楚了解我們國安\n\n22\n00:07:27,435 --> 00:07:27,795\n局長我們不是要成果\n\n23\n00:07:52,099 --> 00:07:55,661\n你今天的業務報告你就是要讓大家知道嘛因為你花很多時間你在做研析這些研析我們從媒體看得出來本期只是先提醒就是說如果你們過去要求說要公開的循打跟報告所以你就應該讓所有委員知道而不是讓大家都已經看一些相關在媒體報章都已經可以看到的這些資訊這樣子可能耗費我們國安單位很多相關的承辦人員\n\n24\n00:08:20,717 --> 00:08:39,880\n他必須要寫這些東西結果你可以讓大家瞭解的少之又少這是特別提出來的部分這個部分我們希望未來可以做一些調整那就要特別再詢問的就是說還包括是不是也請海巡署長\n\n25\n00:08:43,680 --> 00:09:03,282\n根據媒體報導17日有兩名金門的釣客搭船出海釣魚在北定島迷航漂流到大陸福建外海被大陸的海警救起在這裡我想要請教組長的是這個國人出海釣魚有沒有需要向安檢所申請登記\n\n26\n00:09:05,066 --> 00:09:05,146\n馬文君\n\n27\n00:09:51,587 --> 00:09:59,852\n就是暗記暗記那是因為那一天的能見度不到50碼最好的狀況是200碼我們今天要探討的不是只有那一天的能見度因為如果這樣子的一個狀況因為所謂大家俗稱的波特船波特船它出海沒有嚴格的管制所以其實像這種波特船其實有點像是大家認定的就是所謂的三無船\n\n28\n00:10:20,365 --> 00:10:27,631\n委員我必須要更正他跟珊瑚船完全不一樣他不是船破他是伏具你說的是伏具可是他載了人嘛對不對我們現在說你要把他當成伏具或者船破都沒有關係可是事實上他載了人然後都是去釣魚我們現在要談的是這個部分因為在金廈水域珊瑚船的事件因為他進到我們的限制水域了\n\n29\n00:10:48,010 --> 00:10:52,192\n我們非常支持該執法的時候我們一定是海巡的後盾不管發生什麼樣的狀況依法行政其實這是對的可是我們現在在探討的是像類似這一種你要叫他去他就是什麼都沒有你說他是伏具可是他載了人那現在我們可以很確定的\n\n30\n00:11:09,062 --> 00:11:19,630\n海巡署當時大陸三無船的時候我們是依權者前往取締所以很明顯的我們是可以掌握由外向內的這些不明傳播的一個動向對不對可是如果由內向外的這個整個海域的狀況我們有掌握嗎\n\n31\n00:11:27,635 --> 00:11:31,816\n當然我們有我們的案記的案檢所我們都有掌握也都能掌握因為有人在海上漂那不管做他做什麼船舶也好或者扶鋸也好他已經漂出去了那我們都不用掌握因為如果說這涉嫌到走私或者甚至有包括偷渡等等其實他也會有這類的問題那像這樣我們怎麼管制\n\n32\n00:11:54,124 --> 00:11:55,925\n我特別再強調一遍當天是\n\n33\n00:12:14,087 --> 00:12:18,330\n我們聽到家屬報案之後馬上就派船出去但是您知道50碼可以看到大概就看到那個門那邊那所以我們要尋找他很困難\n\n34\n00:12:35,862 --> 00:12:45,874\n但是一直他個人本身也看不到光我們在島上用了很多強塑的光一直向海面島希望能夠給他指引沒有關係我知道我們要救援也好或者什麼樣的一個處置作為\n\n35\n00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:56,003\n在緊急狀況的時候那個我們沒有意見你們一定是專業的可是我們今天要討論的不是這個部分包括國安單位包括今天所有的情緒系統的相關單位跟人員其實都在這裡我們今天要討論的是如果發生這種現象因為它是它並不是傳播可是它又是伏據那類似這樣的情況這其中兩個人本來他們已經可以回來了就被大陸海警救起來以後他們本來兩個可以回來\n\n36\n00:13:19,198 --> 00:13:19,238\n馬文君\n\n37\n00:13:38,729 --> 00:13:41,951\n就是不斷不斷的在發生類似的情形的情況之下這對我們整體的海域跟我們整體的周邊的這些安全會不會有什麼影響這是我們今天特別要提出來的這個部分我們到底要怎麼樣因應然後未來要怎麼樣防止或者像這樣身份特殊的人員其實他們現在後續是怎麼樣的處置時間可能沒有辦法讓你們回答我也請國安局這邊\n\n38\n00:14:07,430 --> 00:14:20,102\n也把這個後續的那個進度跟方向讓本席或者我們委員會可以知道這個也請海巡可以注意這個部分好不好提供相關的資料給本席還有我們委員會謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2563\t4189\t謝主席麻煩請局長請蔡局長\n12984\t24031\t好謝謝主席馬文早局長早大家早今天其實我們人數非常多那也是這一次的會議這一屆的會期開始我們第一次有這個秘密會議那大家對秘密會議可能有特別比較不同的印象\n31756\t51097\t至於在去年年底的時候吧那時候可能因為機密會議裡面的一些方式比如說要不要簽署保密協定等等那雖然那時候沒有規定因為如果說委員會大概大家也是共識的部分\n52188\t73130\t雖然在國家的法律裡面已經有規範所有的相關人員不管是公職人員也好包括民意代表也好應該要有的這些遵守的法令規定其實都有已經有相關的規範可是如果委員認為說應該要限制對於民意代表限制更多在對於\n75455\t75655\t：馬文君\n96195\t100600\t那就這個部分我們想要藉這個機會因為剛剛機密會議也開了我們所有的現場狀況大概也是這個樣子如果有很嚴重的為師的行為我們都希望可以當場指出來因為我們看一看這個是\n115237\t119741\t這個臉書的資料是王定宇召委在2019年3月28號的時候他所發表的臉書這個臉書為什麼今天特別提出來是因為之前在不管政論節目也好在周刊也好很多的會聲會影說我們在精密會議的時候進進出出還有拿著本來說手機後來\n141977\t162811\t發現手機應該要放在外面所以又改成二哥大老實說有本席從來沒有拿過二哥大剛剛我還問了一下祕書他的是哪一種那既然大家會有這樣子的一個疑慮的時候我們看一看王定宇委員王定宇召委那一天在這個機密會議上面\n164005\t189226\t他所說的內容那是早上開完會他當天發布的臉書的內容今天上午定於主持潛艦國造進度專案報告採取最高等級的秘密會議進行除與會人員簽署保密文書外會議是在昨天今天會議前都由國會資安人員進行檢查會議圓滿結束\n191348\t196913\t可以跟國委員報告的是這個臺灣自製潛艦終於邁進一大步從合約式設計階段進入細部設計階段構型將採X型尾舵的3.0B版可望在2024年3月首艘潛艦下水\n212345\t235872\t為什麼特別提這個當你在印象最深刻的時候早上剛開完會他當天發表的臉書資料應該是最正確的可是在經過三四年以後有很多很多的傳言因為機密會議裡面不會有錄影所以到底應該要提出什麼樣的一個證明的一個佐證不要\n237592\t256004\t所以我們現在希望大家有這個共識以後以後大家就按規定來我們依法行政以後立法院就按照這樣的一個程序那尤其國安單位我想你們應該在這個部分會遵守的更嚴謹嘛對不對尤其是有委員提案的部分我們就按照這樣來進行\n258188\t271145\t那接下來我想要請教的是這個十幾億的預算因為我們用一張紙帶過我們現在看到我們的公開的預算裡面我們有好幾篇那我們的\n275650\t295541\t國安局的預算總共大概70億左右其中秘密秘密的一個預算大概60億公開的預算有十幾億那公開預算其實我們還包含了可能一些相關的包括人員訓練買裝備設施整建等等可是我們的\n297316\t321786\t說明十幾億真的太簡單所以我們希望局長以後在這個部分應該讓所有的委員尤其我們有很多新的委員是不是大家對於整個國安局現在在進行的一個方向不僅是延期因為延期有很多我們看了好幾頁這個在媒體甚至外媒其實都可以看得到我們更希望知道的是國安局的相關業務到底我們編了這些預算我們到底是怎麼運用然後未來\n325888\t347541\t他的今年的發展重點到底是什麼應該要著墨多一點對不對有有這部分的也跟我們說明一下我記得在上一屆的立法院去年的第二會期在審查預算的時候我們針對我們公開預算的部分都有在貴委員會做非常詳盡的說明那我記得當天的尋討過程當中也對於各種預算的運用我們都有解釋相關的用途\n348421\t351863\t這是公開的部分十幾億我們就看到一張紙我不知道大家看到這個部分其實可以看得到我們十幾億到底怎麼用那沒關係我現在想要請教一下局長因為剛剛我們說就公開的部分還有機密的部分其實我們大概都沒有把預算的重點\n365071\t365111\t：馬文君\n388746\t389087\t對象或條件是什麼\n397661\t424768\t對 這部分事實上在每一個年度的預算審查的過程當中我們除了剛剛有跟委員提到的在公開預算的部分會來這邊詢答解釋每一個細項的運用以外在機密報告的部分我們相關的預算也都有在貴委員會指定的會議室來進行陳列那當然能夠進去看機密預算的只有委員本人所以這部分假如委員去看了機密預算任何的項目有任何問題 國安局都因為今天很多都是我們在委員會裡面\n426408\t446695\t國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員其實就資深的大概就只有本席跟王定宇遭委所以其他的委員其實他們根本過去沒有看過機密資料也其實對預算其實並不清楚所以本來我們期待在這一次的報告裡面其實應該要做一些說明讓所有的委員都清楚了解我們國安\n447435\t447795\t局長我們不是要成果\n472099\t475661\t你今天的業務報告你就是要讓大家知道嘛因為你花很多時間你在做研析這些研析我們從媒體看得出來本期只是先提醒就是說如果你們過去要求說要公開的循打跟報告所以你就應該讓所有委員知道而不是讓大家都已經看一些相關在媒體報章都已經可以看到的這些資訊這樣子可能耗費我們國安單位很多相關的承辦人員\n500717\t519880\t他必須要寫這些東西結果你可以讓大家瞭解的少之又少這是特別提出來的部分這個部分我們希望未來可以做一些調整那就要特別再詢問的就是說還包括是不是也請海巡署長\n523680\t543282\t根據媒體報導17日有兩名金門的釣客搭船出海釣魚在北定島迷航漂流到大陸福建外海被大陸的海警救起在這裡我想要請教組長的是這個國人出海釣魚有沒有需要向安檢所申請登記\n545066\t545146\t馬文君\n569326\t591374\t暫編\n591587\t599852\t就是暗記暗記那是因為那一天的能見度不到50碼最好的狀況是200碼我們今天要探討的不是只有那一天的能見度因為如果這樣子的一個狀況因為所謂大家俗稱的波特船波特船它出海沒有嚴格的管制所以其實像這種波特船其實有點像是大家認定的就是所謂的三無船\n620365\t627631\t委員我必須要更正他跟珊瑚船完全不一樣他不是船破他是伏具你說的是伏具可是他載了人嘛對不對我們現在說你要把他當成伏具或者船破都沒有關係可是事實上他載了人然後都是去釣魚我們現在要談的是這個部分因為在金廈水域珊瑚船的事件因為他進到我們的限制水域了\n648010\t652192\t我們非常支持該執法的時候我們一定是海巡的後盾不管發生什麼樣的狀況依法行政其實這是對的可是我們現在在探討的是像類似這一種你要叫他去他就是什麼都沒有你說他是伏具可是他載了人那現在我們可以很確定的\n669062\t679630\t海巡署當時大陸三無船的時候我們是依權者前往取締所以很明顯的我們是可以掌握由外向內的這些不明傳播的一個動向對不對可是如果由內向外的這個整個海域的狀況我們有掌握嗎\n687635\t691816\t當然我們有我們的案記的案檢所我們都有掌握也都能掌握因為有人在海上漂那不管做他做什麼船舶也好或者扶鋸也好他已經漂出去了那我們都不用掌握因為如果說這涉嫌到走私或者甚至有包括偷渡等等其實他也會有這類的問題那像這樣我們怎麼管制\n714124\t715925\t我特別再強調一遍當天是\n734087\t738330\t我們聽到家屬報案之後馬上就派船出去但是您知道50碼可以看到大概就看到那個門那邊那所以我們要尋找他很困難\n755862\t765874\t但是一直他個人本身也看不到光我們在島上用了很多強塑的光一直向海面島希望能夠給他指引沒有關係我知道我們要救援也好或者什麼樣的一個處置作為\n771400\t776003\t在緊急狀況的時候那個我們沒有意見你們一定是專業的可是我們今天要討論的不是這個部分包括國安單位包括今天所有的情緒系統的相關單位跟人員其實都在這裡我們今天要討論的是如果發生這種現象因為它是它並不是傳播可是它又是伏據那類似這樣的情況這其中兩個人本來他們已經可以回來了就被大陸海警救起來以後他們本來兩個可以回來\n799198\t799238\t馬文君\n818729\t821951\t就是不斷不斷的在發生類似的情形的情況之下這對我們整體的海域跟我們整體的周邊的這些安全會不會有什麼影響這是我們今天特別要提出來的這個部分我們到底要怎麼樣因應然後未來要怎麼樣防止或者像這樣身份特殊的人員其實他們現在後續是怎麼樣的處置時間可能沒有辦法讓你們回答我也請國安局這邊\n847430\t860102\t也把這個後續的那個進度跟方向讓本席或者我們委員會可以知道這個也請海巡可以注意這個部分好不好提供相關的資料給本席還有我們委員會謝謝\n","txt":"謝主席麻煩請局長請蔡局長\n好謝謝主席馬文早局長早大家早今天其實我們人數非常多那也是這一次的會議這一屆的會期開始我們第一次有這個秘密會議那大家對秘密會議可能有特別比較不同的印象\n至於在去年年底的時候吧那時候可能因為機密會議裡面的一些方式比如說要不要簽署保密協定等等那雖然那時候沒有規定因為如果說委員會大概大家也是共識的部分\n雖然在國家的法律裡面已經有規範所有的相關人員不管是公職人員也好包括民意代表也好應該要有的這些遵守的法令規定其實都有已經有相關的規範可是如果委員認為說應該要限制對於民意代表限制更多在對於\n：馬文君\n那就這個部分我們想要藉這個機會因為剛剛機密會議也開了我們所有的現場狀況大概也是這個樣子如果有很嚴重的為師的行為我們都希望可以當場指出來因為我們看一看這個是\n這個臉書的資料是王定宇召委在2019年3月28號的時候他所發表的臉書這個臉書為什麼今天特別提出來是因為之前在不管政論節目也好在周刊也好很多的會聲會影說我們在精密會議的時候進進出出還有拿著本來說手機後來\n發現手機應該要放在外面所以又改成二哥大老實說有本席從來沒有拿過二哥大剛剛我還問了一下祕書他的是哪一種那既然大家會有這樣子的一個疑慮的時候我們看一看王定宇委員王定宇召委那一天在這個機密會議上面\n他所說的內容那是早上開完會他當天發布的臉書的內容今天上午定於主持潛艦國造進度專案報告採取最高等級的秘密會議進行除與會人員簽署保密文書外會議是在昨天今天會議前都由國會資安人員進行檢查會議圓滿結束\n可以跟國委員報告的是這個臺灣自製潛艦終於邁進一大步從合約式設計階段進入細部設計階段構型將採X型尾舵的3.0B版可望在2024年3月首艘潛艦下水\n為什麼特別提這個當你在印象最深刻的時候早上剛開完會他當天發表的臉書資料應該是最正確的可是在經過三四年以後有很多很多的傳言因為機密會議裡面不會有錄影所以到底應該要提出什麼樣的一個證明的一個佐證不要\n所以我們現在希望大家有這個共識以後以後大家就按規定來我們依法行政以後立法院就按照這樣的一個程序那尤其國安單位我想你們應該在這個部分會遵守的更嚴謹嘛對不對尤其是有委員提案的部分我們就按照這樣來進行\n那接下來我想要請教的是這個十幾億的預算因為我們用一張紙帶過我們現在看到我們的公開的預算裡面我們有好幾篇那我們的\n國安局的預算總共大概70億左右其中秘密秘密的一個預算大概60億公開的預算有十幾億那公開預算其實我們還包含了可能一些相關的包括人員訓練買裝備設施整建等等可是我們的\n說明十幾億真的太簡單所以我們希望局長以後在這個部分應該讓所有的委員尤其我們有很多新的委員是不是大家對於整個國安局現在在進行的一個方向不僅是延期因為延期有很多我們看了好幾頁這個在媒體甚至外媒其實都可以看得到我們更希望知道的是國安局的相關業務到底我們編了這些預算我們到底是怎麼運用然後未來\n他的今年的發展重點到底是什麼應該要著墨多一點對不對有有這部分的也跟我們說明一下我記得在上一屆的立法院去年的第二會期在審查預算的時候我們針對我們公開預算的部分都有在貴委員會做非常詳盡的說明那我記得當天的尋討過程當中也對於各種預算的運用我們都有解釋相關的用途\n這是公開的部分十幾億我們就看到一張紙我不知道大家看到這個部分其實可以看得到我們十幾億到底怎麼用那沒關係我現在想要請教一下局長因為剛剛我們說就公開的部分還有機密的部分其實我們大概都沒有把預算的重點\n：馬文君\n對象或條件是什麼\n對 這部分事實上在每一個年度的預算審查的過程當中我們除了剛剛有跟委員提到的在公開預算的部分會來這邊詢答解釋每一個細項的運用以外在機密報告的部分我們相關的預算也都有在貴委員會指定的會議室來進行陳列那當然能夠進去看機密預算的只有委員本人所以這部分假如委員去看了機密預算任何的項目有任何問題 國安局都因為今天很多都是我們在委員會裡面\n國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員其實就資深的大概就只有本席跟王定宇遭委所以其他的委員其實他們根本過去沒有看過機密資料也其實對預算其實並不清楚所以本來我們期待在這一次的報告裡面其實應該要做一些說明讓所有的委員都清楚了解我們國安\n局長我們不是要成果\n你今天的業務報告你就是要讓大家知道嘛因為你花很多時間你在做研析這些研析我們從媒體看得出來本期只是先提醒就是說如果你們過去要求說要公開的循打跟報告所以你就應該讓所有委員知道而不是讓大家都已經看一些相關在媒體報章都已經可以看到的這些資訊這樣子可能耗費我們國安單位很多相關的承辦人員\n他必須要寫這些東西結果你可以讓大家瞭解的少之又少這是特別提出來的部分這個部分我們希望未來可以做一些調整那就要特別再詢問的就是說還包括是不是也請海巡署長\n根據媒體報導17日有兩名金門的釣客搭船出海釣魚在北定島迷航漂流到大陸福建外海被大陸的海警救起在這裡我想要請教組長的是這個國人出海釣魚有沒有需要向安檢所申請登記\n馬文君\n暫編\n就是暗記暗記那是因為那一天的能見度不到50碼最好的狀況是200碼我們今天要探討的不是只有那一天的能見度因為如果這樣子的一個狀況因為所謂大家俗稱的波特船波特船它出海沒有嚴格的管制所以其實像這種波特船其實有點像是大家認定的就是所謂的三無船\n委員我必須要更正他跟珊瑚船完全不一樣他不是船破他是伏具你說的是伏具可是他載了人嘛對不對我們現在說你要把他當成伏具或者船破都沒有關係可是事實上他載了人然後都是去釣魚我們現在要談的是這個部分因為在金廈水域珊瑚船的事件因為他進到我們的限制水域了\n我們非常支持該執法的時候我們一定是海巡的後盾不管發生什麼樣的狀況依法行政其實這是對的可是我們現在在探討的是像類似這一種你要叫他去他就是什麼都沒有你說他是伏具可是他載了人那現在我們可以很確定的\n海巡署當時大陸三無船的時候我們是依權者前往取締所以很明顯的我們是可以掌握由外向內的這些不明傳播的一個動向對不對可是如果由內向外的這個整個海域的狀況我們有掌握嗎\n當然我們有我們的案記的案檢所我們都有掌握也都能掌握因為有人在海上漂那不管做他做什麼船舶也好或者扶鋸也好他已經漂出去了那我們都不用掌握因為如果說這涉嫌到走私或者甚至有包括偷渡等等其實他也會有這類的問題那像這樣我們怎麼管制\n我特別再強調一遍當天是\n我們聽到家屬報案之後馬上就派船出去但是您知道50碼可以看到大概就看到那個門那邊那所以我們要尋找他很困難\n但是一直他個人本身也看不到光我們在島上用了很多強塑的光一直向海面島希望能夠給他指引沒有關係我知道我們要救援也好或者什麼樣的一個處置作為\n在緊急狀況的時候那個我們沒有意見你們一定是專業的可是我們今天要討論的不是這個部分包括國安單位包括今天所有的情緒系統的相關單位跟人員其實都在這裡我們今天要討論的是如果發生這種現象因為它是它並不是傳播可是它又是伏據那類似這樣的情況這其中兩個人本來他們已經可以回來了就被大陸海警救起來以後他們本來兩個可以回來\n馬文君\n就是不斷不斷的在發生類似的情形的情況之下這對我們整體的海域跟我們整體的周邊的這些安全會不會有什麼影響這是我們今天特別要提出來的這個部分我們到底要怎麼樣因應然後未來要怎麼樣防止或者像這樣身份特殊的人員其實他們現在後續是怎麼樣的處置時間可能沒有辦法讓你們回答我也請國安局這邊\n也把這個後續的那個進度跟方向讓本席或者我們委員會可以知道這個也請海巡可以注意這個部分好不好提供相關的資料給本席還有我們委員會謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.563 --> 00:04.189\n謝主席麻煩請局長請蔡局長\n\n00:12.984 --> 00:24.031\n好謝謝主席馬文早局長早大家早今天其實我們人數非常多那也是這一次的會議這一屆的會期開始我們第一次有這個秘密會議那大家對秘密會議可能有特別比較不同的印象\n\n00:31.756 --> 00:51.097\n至於在去年年底的時候吧那時候可能因為機密會議裡面的一些方式比如說要不要簽署保密協定等等那雖然那時候沒有規定因為如果說委員會大概大家也是共識的部分\n\n00:52.188 --> 01:13.130\n雖然在國家的法律裡面已經有規範所有的相關人員不管是公職人員也好包括民意代表也好應該要有的這些遵守的法令規定其實都有已經有相關的規範可是如果委員認為說應該要限制對於民意代表限制更多在對於\n\n01:15.455 --> 01:15.655\n：馬文君\n\n01:36.195 --> 01:40.600\n那就這個部分我們想要藉這個機會因為剛剛機密會議也開了我們所有的現場狀況大概也是這個樣子如果有很嚴重的為師的行為我們都希望可以當場指出來因為我們看一看這個是\n\n01:55.237 --> 01:59.741\n這個臉書的資料是王定宇召委在2019年3月28號的時候他所發表的臉書這個臉書為什麼今天特別提出來是因為之前在不管政論節目也好在周刊也好很多的會聲會影說我們在精密會議的時候進進出出還有拿著本來說手機後來\n\n02:21.977 --> 02:42.811\n發現手機應該要放在外面所以又改成二哥大老實說有本席從來沒有拿過二哥大剛剛我還問了一下祕書他的是哪一種那既然大家會有這樣子的一個疑慮的時候我們看一看王定宇委員王定宇召委那一天在這個機密會議上面\n\n02:44.005 --> 03:09.226\n他所說的內容那是早上開完會他當天發布的臉書的內容今天上午定於主持潛艦國造進度專案報告採取最高等級的秘密會議進行除與會人員簽署保密文書外會議是在昨天今天會議前都由國會資安人員進行檢查會議圓滿結束\n\n03:11.348 --> 03:16.913\n可以跟國委員報告的是這個臺灣自製潛艦終於邁進一大步從合約式設計階段進入細部設計階段構型將採X型尾舵的3.0B版可望在2024年3月首艘潛艦下水\n\n03:32.345 --> 03:55.872\n為什麼特別提這個當你在印象最深刻的時候早上剛開完會他當天發表的臉書資料應該是最正確的可是在經過三四年以後有很多很多的傳言因為機密會議裡面不會有錄影所以到底應該要提出什麼樣的一個證明的一個佐證不要\n\n03:57.592 --> 04:16.004\n所以我們現在希望大家有這個共識以後以後大家就按規定來我們依法行政以後立法院就按照這樣的一個程序那尤其國安單位我想你們應該在這個部分會遵守的更嚴謹嘛對不對尤其是有委員提案的部分我們就按照這樣來進行\n\n04:18.188 --> 04:31.145\n那接下來我想要請教的是這個十幾億的預算因為我們用一張紙帶過我們現在看到我們的公開的預算裡面我們有好幾篇那我們的\n\n04:35.650 --> 04:55.541\n國安局的預算總共大概70億左右其中秘密秘密的一個預算大概60億公開的預算有十幾億那公開預算其實我們還包含了可能一些相關的包括人員訓練買裝備設施整建等等可是我們的\n\n04:57.316 --> 05:21.786\n說明十幾億真的太簡單所以我們希望局長以後在這個部分應該讓所有的委員尤其我們有很多新的委員是不是大家對於整個國安局現在在進行的一個方向不僅是延期因為延期有很多我們看了好幾頁這個在媒體甚至外媒其實都可以看得到我們更希望知道的是國安局的相關業務到底我們編了這些預算我們到底是怎麼運用然後未來\n\n05:25.888 --> 05:47.541\n他的今年的發展重點到底是什麼應該要著墨多一點對不對有有這部分的也跟我們說明一下我記得在上一屆的立法院去年的第二會期在審查預算的時候我們針對我們公開預算的部分都有在貴委員會做非常詳盡的說明那我記得當天的尋討過程當中也對於各種預算的運用我們都有解釋相關的用途\n\n05:48.421 --> 05:51.863\n這是公開的部分十幾億我們就看到一張紙我不知道大家看到這個部分其實可以看得到我們十幾億到底怎麼用那沒關係我現在想要請教一下局長因為剛剛我們說就公開的部分還有機密的部分其實我們大概都沒有把預算的重點\n\n06:05.071 --> 06:05.111\n：馬文君\n\n06:28.746 --> 06:29.087\n對象或條件是什麼\n\n06:37.661 --> 07:04.768\n對這部分事實上在每一個年度的預算審查的過程當中我們除了剛剛有跟委員提到的在公開預算的部分會來這邊詢答解釋每一個細項的運用以外在機密報告的部分我們相關的預算也都有在貴委員會指定的會議室來進行陳列那當然能夠進去看機密預算的只有委員本人所以這部分假如委員去看了機密預算任何的項目有任何問題國安局都因為今天很多都是我們在委員會裡面\n\n07:06.408 --> 07:26.695\n國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員其實就資深的大概就只有本席跟王定宇遭委所以其他的委員其實他們根本過去沒有看過機密資料也其實對預算其實並不清楚所以本來我們期待在這一次的報告裡面其實應該要做一些說明讓所有的委員都清楚了解我們國安\n\n07:27.435 --> 07:27.795\n局長我們不是要成果\n\n07:52.099 --> 07:55.661\n你今天的業務報告你就是要讓大家知道嘛因為你花很多時間你在做研析這些研析我們從媒體看得出來本期只是先提醒就是說如果你們過去要求說要公開的循打跟報告所以你就應該讓所有委員知道而不是讓大家都已經看一些相關在媒體報章都已經可以看到的這些資訊這樣子可能耗費我們國安單位很多相關的承辦人員\n\n08:20.717 --> 08:39.880\n他必須要寫這些東西結果你可以讓大家瞭解的少之又少這是特別提出來的部分這個部分我們希望未來可以做一些調整那就要特別再詢問的就是說還包括是不是也請海巡署長\n\n08:43.680 --> 09:03.282\n根據媒體報導17日有兩名金門的釣客搭船出海釣魚在北定島迷航漂流到大陸福建外海被大陸的海警救起在這裡我想要請教組長的是這個國人出海釣魚有沒有需要向安檢所申請登記\n\n09:05.066 --> 09:05.146\n馬文君\n\n09:51.587 --> 09:59.852\n就是暗記暗記那是因為那一天的能見度不到50碼最好的狀況是200碼我們今天要探討的不是只有那一天的能見度因為如果這樣子的一個狀況因為所謂大家俗稱的波特船波特船它出海沒有嚴格的管制所以其實像這種波特船其實有點像是大家認定的就是所謂的三無船\n\n10:20.365 --> 10:27.631\n委員我必須要更正他跟珊瑚船完全不一樣他不是船破他是伏具你說的是伏具可是他載了人嘛對不對我們現在說你要把他當成伏具或者船破都沒有關係可是事實上他載了人然後都是去釣魚我們現在要談的是這個部分因為在金廈水域珊瑚船的事件因為他進到我們的限制水域了\n\n10:48.010 --> 10:52.192\n我們非常支持該執法的時候我們一定是海巡的後盾不管發生什麼樣的狀況依法行政其實這是對的可是我們現在在探討的是像類似這一種你要叫他去他就是什麼都沒有你說他是伏具可是他載了人那現在我們可以很確定的\n\n11:09.062 --> 11:19.630\n海巡署當時大陸三無船的時候我們是依權者前往取締所以很明顯的我們是可以掌握由外向內的這些不明傳播的一個動向對不對可是如果由內向外的這個整個海域的狀況我們有掌握嗎\n\n11:27.635 --> 11:31.816\n當然我們有我們的案記的案檢所我們都有掌握也都能掌握因為有人在海上漂那不管做他做什麼船舶也好或者扶鋸也好他已經漂出去了那我們都不用掌握因為如果說這涉嫌到走私或者甚至有包括偷渡等等其實他也會有這類的問題那像這樣我們怎麼管制\n\n11:54.124 --> 11:55.925\n我特別再強調一遍當天是\n\n12:14.087 --> 12:18.330\n我們聽到家屬報案之後馬上就派船出去但是您知道50碼可以看到大概就看到那個門那邊那所以我們要尋找他很困難\n\n12:35.862 --> 12:45.874\n但是一直他個人本身也看不到光我們在島上用了很多強塑的光一直向海面島希望能夠給他指引沒有關係我知道我們要救援也好或者什麼樣的一個處置作為\n\n12:51.400 --> 12:56.003\n在緊急狀況的時候那個我們沒有意見你們一定是專業的可是我們今天要討論的不是這個部分包括國安單位包括今天所有的情緒系統的相關單位跟人員其實都在這裡我們今天要討論的是如果發生這種現象因為它是它並不是傳播可是它又是伏據那類似這樣的情況這其中兩個人本來他們已經可以回來了就被大陸海警救起來以後他們本來兩個可以回來\n\n13:19.198 --> 13:19.238\n馬文君\n\n13:38.729 --> 13:41.951\n就是不斷不斷的在發生類似的情形的情況之下這對我們整體的海域跟我們整體的周邊的這些安全會不會有什麼影響這是我們今天特別要提出來的這個部分我們到底要怎麼樣因應然後未來要怎麼樣防止或者像這樣身份特殊的人員其實他們現在後續是怎麼樣的處置時間可能沒有辦法讓你們回答我也請國安局這邊\n\n14:07.430 --> 14:20.102\n也把這個後續的那個進度跟方向讓本席或者我們委員會可以知道這個也請海巡可以注意這個部分好不好提供相關的資料給本席還有我們委員會謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.563,"end":4.189,"text":"謝主席麻煩請局長請蔡局長"},{"start":12.984,"end":24.031,"text":"好謝謝主席馬文早局長早大家早今天其實我們人數非常多那也是這一次的會議這一屆的會期開始我們第一次有這個秘密會議那大家對秘密會議可能有特別比較不同的印象"},{"start":31.756,"end":51.097,"text":"至於在去年年底的時候吧那時候可能因為機密會議裡面的一些方式比如說要不要簽署保密協定等等那雖然那時候沒有規定因為如果說委員會大概大家也是共識的部分"},{"start":52.188,"end":73.13,"text":"雖然在國家的法律裡面已經有規範所有的相關人員不管是公職人員也好包括民意代表也好應該要有的這些遵守的法令規定其實都有已經有相關的規範可是如果委員認為說應該要限制對於民意代表限制更多在對於"},{"start":75.455,"end":75.655,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":96.195,"end":100.6,"text":"那就這個部分我們想要藉這個機會因為剛剛機密會議也開了我們所有的現場狀況大概也是這個樣子如果有很嚴重的為師的行為我們都希望可以當場指出來因為我們看一看這個是"},{"start":115.237,"end":119.741,"text":"這個臉書的資料是王定宇召委在2019年3月28號的時候他所發表的臉書這個臉書為什麼今天特別提出來是因為之前在不管政論節目也好在周刊也好很多的會聲會影說我們在精密會議的時候進進出出還有拿著本來說手機後來"},{"start":141.977,"end":162.811,"text":"發現手機應該要放在外面所以又改成二哥大老實說有本席從來沒有拿過二哥大剛剛我還問了一下祕書他的是哪一種那既然大家會有這樣子的一個疑慮的時候我們看一看王定宇委員王定宇召委那一天在這個機密會議上面"},{"start":164.005,"end":189.226,"text":"他所說的內容那是早上開完會他當天發布的臉書的內容今天上午定於主持潛艦國造進度專案報告採取最高等級的秘密會議進行除與會人員簽署保密文書外會議是在昨天今天會議前都由國會資安人員進行檢查會議圓滿結束"},{"start":191.348,"end":196.913,"text":"可以跟國委員報告的是這個臺灣自製潛艦終於邁進一大步從合約式設計階段進入細部設計階段構型將採X型尾舵的3.0B版可望在2024年3月首艘潛艦下水"},{"start":212.345,"end":235.872,"text":"為什麼特別提這個當你在印象最深刻的時候早上剛開完會他當天發表的臉書資料應該是最正確的可是在經過三四年以後有很多很多的傳言因為機密會議裡面不會有錄影所以到底應該要提出什麼樣的一個證明的一個佐證不要"},{"start":237.592,"end":256.004,"text":"所以我們現在希望大家有這個共識以後以後大家就按規定來我們依法行政以後立法院就按照這樣的一個程序那尤其國安單位我想你們應該在這個部分會遵守的更嚴謹嘛對不對尤其是有委員提案的部分我們就按照這樣來進行"},{"start":258.188,"end":271.145,"text":"那接下來我想要請教的是這個十幾億的預算因為我們用一張紙帶過我們現在看到我們的公開的預算裡面我們有好幾篇那我們的"},{"start":275.65,"end":295.541,"text":"國安局的預算總共大概70億左右其中秘密秘密的一個預算大概60億公開的預算有十幾億那公開預算其實我們還包含了可能一些相關的包括人員訓練買裝備設施整建等等可是我們的"},{"start":297.316,"end":321.786,"text":"說明十幾億真的太簡單所以我們希望局長以後在這個部分應該讓所有的委員尤其我們有很多新的委員是不是大家對於整個國安局現在在進行的一個方向不僅是延期因為延期有很多我們看了好幾頁這個在媒體甚至外媒其實都可以看得到我們更希望知道的是國安局的相關業務到底我們編了這些預算我們到底是怎麼運用然後未來"},{"start":325.888,"end":347.541,"text":"他的今年的發展重點到底是什麼應該要著墨多一點對不對有有這部分的也跟我們說明一下我記得在上一屆的立法院去年的第二會期在審查預算的時候我們針對我們公開預算的部分都有在貴委員會做非常詳盡的說明那我記得當天的尋討過程當中也對於各種預算的運用我們都有解釋相關的用途"},{"start":348.421,"end":351.863,"text":"這是公開的部分十幾億我們就看到一張紙我不知道大家看到這個部分其實可以看得到我們十幾億到底怎麼用那沒關係我現在想要請教一下局長因為剛剛我們說就公開的部分還有機密的部分其實我們大概都沒有把預算的重點"},{"start":365.071,"end":365.111,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":388.746,"end":389.087,"text":"對象或條件是什麼"},{"start":397.661,"end":424.768,"text":"對 這部分事實上在每一個年度的預算審查的過程當中我們除了剛剛有跟委員提到的在公開預算的部分會來這邊詢答解釋每一個細項的運用以外在機密報告的部分我們相關的預算也都有在貴委員會指定的會議室來進行陳列那當然能夠進去看機密預算的只有委員本人所以這部分假如委員去看了機密預算任何的項目有任何問題 國安局都因為今天很多都是我們在委員會裡面"},{"start":426.408,"end":446.695,"text":"國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員其實就資深的大概就只有本席跟王定宇遭委所以其他的委員其實他們根本過去沒有看過機密資料也其實對預算其實並不清楚所以本來我們期待在這一次的報告裡面其實應該要做一些說明讓所有的委員都清楚了解我們國安"},{"start":447.435,"end":447.795,"text":"局長我們不是要成果"},{"start":472.099,"end":475.661,"text":"你今天的業務報告你就是要讓大家知道嘛因為你花很多時間你在做研析這些研析我們從媒體看得出來本期只是先提醒就是說如果你們過去要求說要公開的循打跟報告所以你就應該讓所有委員知道而不是讓大家都已經看一些相關在媒體報章都已經可以看到的這些資訊這樣子可能耗費我們國安單位很多相關的承辦人員"},{"start":500.717,"end":519.88,"text":"他必須要寫這些東西結果你可以讓大家瞭解的少之又少這是特別提出來的部分這個部分我們希望未來可以做一些調整那就要特別再詢問的就是說還包括是不是也請海巡署長"},{"start":523.68,"end":543.282,"text":"根據媒體報導17日有兩名金門的釣客搭船出海釣魚在北定島迷航漂流到大陸福建外海被大陸的海警救起在這裡我想要請教組長的是這個國人出海釣魚有沒有需要向安檢所申請登記"},{"start":545.066,"end":545.146,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":569.326,"end":591.374,"text":"暫編"},{"start":591.587,"end":599.852,"text":"就是暗記暗記那是因為那一天的能見度不到50碼最好的狀況是200碼我們今天要探討的不是只有那一天的能見度因為如果這樣子的一個狀況因為所謂大家俗稱的波特船波特船它出海沒有嚴格的管制所以其實像這種波特船其實有點像是大家認定的就是所謂的三無船"},{"start":620.365,"end":627.631,"text":"委員我必須要更正他跟珊瑚船完全不一樣他不是船破他是伏具你說的是伏具可是他載了人嘛對不對我們現在說你要把他當成伏具或者船破都沒有關係可是事實上他載了人然後都是去釣魚我們現在要談的是這個部分因為在金廈水域珊瑚船的事件因為他進到我們的限制水域了"},{"start":648.01,"end":652.192,"text":"我們非常支持該執法的時候我們一定是海巡的後盾不管發生什麼樣的狀況依法行政其實這是對的可是我們現在在探討的是像類似這一種你要叫他去他就是什麼都沒有你說他是伏具可是他載了人那現在我們可以很確定的"},{"start":669.062,"end":679.63,"text":"海巡署當時大陸三無船的時候我們是依權者前往取締所以很明顯的我們是可以掌握由外向內的這些不明傳播的一個動向對不對可是如果由內向外的這個整個海域的狀況我們有掌握嗎"},{"start":687.635,"end":691.816,"text":"當然我們有我們的案記的案檢所我們都有掌握也都能掌握因為有人在海上漂那不管做他做什麼船舶也好或者扶鋸也好他已經漂出去了那我們都不用掌握因為如果說這涉嫌到走私或者甚至有包括偷渡等等其實他也會有這類的問題那像這樣我們怎麼管制"},{"start":714.124,"end":715.925,"text":"我特別再強調一遍當天是"},{"start":734.087,"end":738.33,"text":"我們聽到家屬報案之後馬上就派船出去但是您知道50碼可以看到大概就看到那個門那邊那所以我們要尋找他很困難"},{"start":755.862,"end":765.874,"text":"但是一直他個人本身也看不到光我們在島上用了很多強塑的光一直向海面島希望能夠給他指引沒有關係我知道我們要救援也好或者什麼樣的一個處置作為"},{"start":771.4,"end":776.003,"text":"在緊急狀況的時候那個我們沒有意見你們一定是專業的可是我們今天要討論的不是這個部分包括國安單位包括今天所有的情緒系統的相關單位跟人員其實都在這裡我們今天要討論的是如果發生這種現象因為它是它並不是傳播可是它又是伏據那類似這樣的情況這其中兩個人本來他們已經可以回來了就被大陸海警救起來以後他們本來兩個可以回來"},{"start":799.198,"end":799.238,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":818.729,"end":821.951,"text":"就是不斷不斷的在發生類似的情形的情況之下這對我們整體的海域跟我們整體的周邊的這些安全會不會有什麼影響這是我們今天特別要提出來的這個部分我們到底要怎麼樣因應然後未來要怎麼樣防止或者像這樣身份特殊的人員其實他們現在後續是怎麼樣的處置時間可能沒有辦法讓你們回答我也請國安局這邊"},{"start":847.43,"end":860.102,"text":"也把這個後續的那個進度跟方向讓本席或者我們委員會可以知道這個也請海巡可以注意這個部分好不好提供相關的資料給本席還有我們委員會謝謝"}]}}}}