{"id":150215,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150215","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc3052fb2372fc9efef3c5fc681ffd8597cae2f8ba9b0039caa7a6183e890e354bbf0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:17:35 - 10:30:32","影片長度":"00:12:57","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-8"},"date":"2024-03-21","duration":777,"end_time":"2024-03-21T10:30:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-21T10:17:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":155,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時17分）謝謝主席，我們有請蔡明彥局長。"],["主席：請。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝主席，徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：早安，局長，我想先問一下兩岸最近的情勢跟情況，包含被說成是世界上最危險的地方，變得更加地危險，以及在香港的基本法通過之後，請問一下，在相關情資蒐集的部分，對我國的影響有哪些方面？"],["蔡局長明彥：兩個部分，一個是兩岸整體的情勢，這部分在上個禮拜的專報也跟委員說明過，中共現在對臺的政策還是依循和平統一的路線，只是在和平統一的同時也增加對臺的脅迫性，透過複合式威脅的手段對我們進行施壓，這是第一個部分；第二個部分是針對香港基本法，因為香港立法局已經通過了維護國家安全條例，預計在3月23號開始進行施行，目前評估的重點有一個最重要的是刑罰罰則大幅加重，包括了叛國罪跟叛亂罪會判到終身監禁，間諜活動會判到20年的徒刑，所以外界評估認為香港的維護國家安全條例通過的話……"],["徐委員巧芯：那對我方的影響……"],["蔡局長明彥：也就是對於香港的自治，還有香港的司法以及基本權益會產生非常大的衝擊，所以可能委員也注意到，昨天很多歐美西方國家針對這一部分已經提出非常多的批評。對我們的影響來講，香港通過了維護國家安全條例之後，很多條文細項對於所謂的間諜活動、叛亂罪跟叛國罪的描述並沒有那麼細緻，未來可能會有解釋權被擴大的疑慮，所以我們會建議，假如國人到香港旅遊或相關的商務活動的話，入出境的時候可能還是要注意一下，因為已經有案例顯示了，國人在入境香港的過程中遭到留置約談，而這個案例是在維護國家安全條例通過之前就發生了，所以未來可能國人到香港去，我們還是會提醒一下，假如過去曾經有公開對大陸的一些問題做一些討論或質疑，或是手機裡面……"],["徐委員巧芯：手機裡面？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，手機裡面有一些批評大陸的……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果有一些國安的資訊，比方說像是有透露總統的談話、透露行政院長的談話，或者手機裡面有一些機密資料，包含我們的委員等等，那如果到香港去，您會擔心有外流的情形嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們剛才一再提醒，到香港去可能要特別注意自己的資通訊設備，有可能在進入海關時被留置約談而進行安全檢查，這部分可能要特別小心，以免入境過程中無端入罪。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，等一下還會再問你這個，但我想先補問一個，美國印太司令部的司令阿基里諾說，所有的跡象表明中國會在2027年做好入侵臺灣的準備，在這方面，所謂2027年入侵臺灣，對於他的說法，國安局目前的情資顯示是如何？"],["蔡局長明彥：國際各方面的政府單位或研究機構對於臺海情勢的討論，我們都非常的重視，針對2027年這一個年份，我們過去也曾經在委員會裡面跟大家報告，因為2027年本身是一個非常、非常重要的年份，帶有政治性跟軍事性，它是重要的政治年份，因為2027年是習近平要不要進入到第四任任期的一個重要轉折點；另外，它在軍事上有重要的意義，因為2027年是中共解放軍建軍100週年，習近平希望在2027年能夠達成建軍百年的總目標，再配合美方的一些情資顯示，習近平希望在2027年能夠讓解放軍建立起犯臺相關的能力整備，相關的資訊我們都有在做必要的……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那回到剛剛的上一題，我們談到您說香港基本法通過之後，您會擔心國人的手機或是一些資訊可能在出入境時有一些外洩、外流的情況，那我相信如果到大陸去的話，您也會同樣的擔心，對吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我想請問一下，主席，我這邊也想要請調查局一起備詢好不好？今天調查局局長也有在現場，是不是請王局長也一起備詢？因為上一次我就有問過您有關於一些大家很重視的、重要的政治人物的相關影片，到底是屬於Deepfake或是真實流出的部分，對此進行一些提問，但是局長你講說很多是包含在調查局或是檢調這個部分，所以今天調查局長有來，我又要再一次追問，我們先從比較重要的幾位開始詢問。請問一下，鄭文燦副院長這個影片，當時就有立法委員提出，然後請調查局去調查它到底是不是深偽、有沒有所謂中共介選的問題，請問調查局這個部分調查的情況是如何？怎麼後續都沒有跟國人做說明呢？"],["王局長俊力：跟委員報告，有關這些政治人士他們的一些……"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在一個、一個問好不好？鄭文燦就好了。"],["王局長俊力：有關於鄭副院長的部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有正副院長，只有副院長，不要把院長一起講進來，沒有院長，只有副院長。"],["王局長俊力：好。他自己所提出來的部分，他有向警方報案，所以一開始就由警方他們來受理，我們調查局也有接到臺北地檢署的指示來做一些檢測，我們檢測以後有立刻把相關的檢測結果送給臺北地檢署，最主要是檢察官他要綜合卷裡面的相關事證來做綜合的……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們檢測的結果是什麼？"],["王局長俊力：因為這個部分我們受限於偵查不公開，必須要檢察官同意，我們才能……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問一下，如果是假的，是不是就要公開？因為如果是Deepfake的話，那我們的副院長變成是Deepfake在外面這樣流傳，對我國的形象，還有對他個人，還有對社會當時在選舉影響甚大，是不是如果是假的就會立刻公開？你沒有公開是不是大家就會覺得是真的？"],["王局長俊力：跟委員報告，因為這個裡面有涉及到其他一些因素……"],["徐委員巧芯：什麼叫其他一些因素？"],["王局長俊力：比如說是不是有涉及到其他刑事犯罪的部分，所以它不是一個單純的……"],["徐委員巧芯：誰刑事犯罪？你是說外流的人刑事犯罪？"],["王局長俊力：比如說這些影片的來源是從哪裡來？是不是有其他偷拍、取得或者是散布等等這些……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，這個部分是刑事調查嘛！"],["王局長俊力：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：由檢調來調查。但是當時包含這個影片，我記得應該是在司法及法制委員會的時候，王鴻薇委員就直接拿了原件請調查局去調查真偽，我們只針對真偽的部分來瞭解說到底是真的、假的，因為如果是假的，你一定要向大家說明啊！如果是真的話，那可能就要考慮當事人的想法，就不一定要做說明。請問這個部分到底是真的還是假的？"],["王局長俊力：跟委員報告，當時影片我們立刻做的是有關於Deepfake的部分，是有關於有沒有AI深偽的部分，但是影片的真偽除了深偽的判斷以外，也有其他造假的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我知道，我懂你的意思，所以Deepfake的部分是或不是？一個階段、一個階段來嘛！有可能有其他的造假，但是你第一階段先針對AI生成Deepfake的部分去瞭解，所以它是一個Deepfake AI的影片嘛？"],["王局長俊力：Deepfake的部分，因為它也是證據的一部分，所以我們就整個一同送給了……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是如果是假的話，在選舉期間，我們重要的政治領袖被Deepfake AI攻擊的話，那應該一定要讓國人知道這麼嚴重的情況，這可能涉及中共介選，可能涉及更多的問題，這個是屬於……因為我們在講偵查不公開的時候，它裡面還有包含一個部分，如果對於社會有重大影響的應該要做適度的說明，而不是不做說明，這個是在偵查不公開的例外條件。所以我想要請教，按照您的意思，我剛剛聽起來是說，針對Deepfake跟AI調查發現沒有Deepfake跟AI的問題，但你們還要去瞭解還有沒有其他造假的元素，好像是這樣子，我的解讀有錯嗎？"],["王局長俊力：就是說除了這個AI Deepfake的檢測部分之外，檢察官也要求我們的鑑識科學處來做它有沒有被造假的問題，因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們調查的又如何？第二階段。"],["王局長俊力：我們不適合只就單一的證據立刻對外公布，因為檢察官……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是你們調查好久了欸。"],["王局長俊力：對，因為案件是在檢察官的手中啦！這個部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：案件在檢察官手中，可是調查真假是在你們手中啊！"],["王局長俊力：對，我們是接受檢察官的指揮，我們來進行相關證據的檢測。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個部分我大概懂了。第二個部分是有關於我們的政治人物有沒有去錄總統跟院長的音，羅致政也是我們外交及國防委員會過去資深的召委，當時傳出他去錄音，錄了蔡英文總統跟行政院蘇院長的音，這個是涉及到很大的國安問題，上次我問局長了，請問一下，這個錄音檔有沒有變造？"],["王局長俊力：跟委員報告，關於這一件，羅前委員也是在這個事情發生以後，他很快的就來跟我們新北處提告，新北處受理後，我們也報請檢察官來指揮偵辦，這個AI有沒有Deepfake這樣的一個情況……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個哪有Deepfake，我是說錄音檔欸，你不要一直看左邊那張圖好不好？"],["王局長俊力：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：我是問錄音檔。"],["王局長俊力：錄音檔的部分，那個音源的部分我們有檢測出來……"],["徐委員巧芯：怎麼樣？"],["王局長俊力：檢測出來我們一樣也是交給臺北地檢署。"],["徐委員巧芯：有沒有剪接變造？有沒有變造總統的……因為今天是國安的因素我們才在乎，那個刑事歸刑事，他們有沒有誰犯不犯法，那個歸他們喔，我們要知道的是我們有沒有國安的疑慮，這個是行政，行政跟檢調、司法是兩塊，所以在行政上面這個有沒有違失？它有沒有變成一個國安問題？他去偷錄總統的音，還是說有什麼中共幹嘛、幹嘛去造假這件事情，這兩個是完全不一樣，後續是完全不一樣的方向，我問你是哪一種？"],["王局長俊力：跟委員說明，這個案子是臺北地檢署的檢察官在指揮偵辦當中，除了這個錄音檔有沒有被Deepfake之外，錄音檔本身的內容也是一樣在做檢測，除此之外，我們也傳喚了相關人士來進行一個瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：你傳喚了相關人士應該不是傳喚蔡總統或是蘇院長，所以是羅致政委員，對吧？"],["王局長俊力：是，我們有約詢羅致政委員來瞭解一些相關的狀況，因為整個案件的內容必須要由檢察官綜合卷內的一些證據來研判。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們調查的部分怎麼樣？你們的部分。"],["王局長俊力：我一再的跟委員說明，就這個部分我們還是尊重檢察官……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是如果有變造我國總統的錄音這麼大事件的話，它就會在偵查不公開以外，有一個例外叫做要適度對社會做說明。"],["王局長俊力：對……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我可不可以解讀成，你們覺得這個是要進到司法程序，是看誰有罪、誰沒罪，所以其實實際上你們調查出來就沒有什麼剪不剪接的問題，也沒有什麼造不造假的問題？"],["王局長俊力：我相信檢察官在偵查終結之後會對外說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：我不曉得要多久。問一下最後一個問題，就是這幾位，我們調查局有約談哪些人了？"],["王局長俊力：像羅先生這一件，我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：本人，約談當事人。趙天麟有約談嗎？"],["王局長俊力：趙天麟的部分，目前我們是先把相關的證據蒐集齊全以後送給檢察官。"],["徐委員巧芯：會約談嗎？不知道、不確定？"],["王局長俊力：對，如果檢察官指示我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：鄭文燦副院長有約談嗎？"],["王局長俊力：他本人就有提告。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席（徐委員巧芯代）：下一位請王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","林楚茵","洪申翰","賴士葆","陳冠廷","邱志偉","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃仁","黃捷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-21"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"150215","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150215","tool":"pyannote","id":"150215-pyannote"},"job_id":"ryYKkWQuBXKb6rKO","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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33.026, \"end\": 33.186, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 33.186, \"end\": 33.366, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 33.366, \"end\": 33.546, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 33.546, \"end\": 33.746, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 33.746, \"end\": 33.766, \"score\": 0.264}]}, {\"start\": 34.746, \"end\": 63.325, \"text\": \"兩部分一個是兩岸的整體的情勢那這部分在上個禮拜的專報也跟委員說明過那中共現在對台的政策還是依循他和平統一的路線只是在和平統一的同時也增加對台的脅迫性透過複合式威脅的手段來對我們進行施壓這是第一個部分那第二部分是針對香港的基本法的部分那因為香港的立法局已經通過了維護國家安全條例那預計在3月23號開始進行施行目前大概評估的重點\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 34.746, \"end\": 34.866, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 34.866, \"end\": 35.187, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 35.187, \"end\": 35.407, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 35.407, \"end\": 35.827, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"岸\", \"start\": 35.827, \"end\": 36.047, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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\"end\": 105.158, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"罪\", \"start\": 105.158, \"end\": 105.658, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"描\", \"start\": 105.658, \"end\": 105.938, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"述\", \"start\": 105.938, \"end\": 106.238, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 106.238, \"end\": 106.358, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 106.358, \"end\": 106.458, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 106.458, \"end\": 106.759, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 106.759, \"end\": 106.779, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"緻\"}]}, {\"start\": 107.699, \"end\": 136.373, \"text\": \"那未來可能會有解釋權被擴大的這種疑慮所以我們會建議假如國人到香港去進行旅遊或相關的商務的活動的話入出境的時候可能還是要注意一下因為已經有案例顯示了國人在入境香港過程當中遭到了留置約談而這個案例是在這一個維護安全國家安全條例通過之前就發生了所以未來可能國人到香港去我們還是會提醒一下假如說過去曾經有公開的對大陸的一些問題做一些討論或質疑\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 107.699, \"end\": 107.919, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 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\"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 453.789, \"end\": 453.909, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 453.909, \"end\": 453.93, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 454.85, \"end\": 477.433, \"text\": \"那但是影片的真偽齁除了深偽的判斷以外也有其他的這個造假的問題齁喔好我知道我懂你意思所以D fake的部分是或不是啊一個階段一個階段來嘛有可能有其他造假但是你第一階段先針對AI生成D fake的部分去了解所以它是一個D fake AI的影片嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 454.85, \"end\": 455.03, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 455.03, \"end\": 455.17, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 455.17, \"end\": 455.471, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 455.471, \"end\": 455.731, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"片\", \"start\": 455.731, \"end\": 455.931, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 455.931, \"end\": 456.111, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 456.111, \"end\": 456.732, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"偽\"}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 456.732, \"end\": 456.952, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": 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482.848, \"text\": \"可是如果是假的話你如果是真的我們在選舉期間遭受到我們重要的政治領袖被DFAQ AI攻擊的話\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 478.325, \"end\": 478.505, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 478.505, \"end\": 478.525, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 478.525, \"end\": 478.645, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 478.645, \"end\": 478.665, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 478.665, \"end\": 478.685, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 478.685, \"end\": 478.845, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 478.845, \"end\": 479.045, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 479.045, \"end\": 479.186, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 479.186, \"end\": 479.286, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 479.286, \"end\": 479.306, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 479.306, \"end\": 479.426, \"score\": 0.385}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 479.426, \"end\": 479.506, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": 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\"我一再的跟委員說明就這個部分我們還是尊重檢察官但是如果說有去變造了我國總統的錄音這麼大的事件的話他就會在偵查不公開以外還有一個例外叫做要適度對社會做說明所以我可不可以解讀成說你們覺得這個是要進到司法程序是看誰有罪誰沒罪所以其實實際上你們調查出來就沒有什麼剪不剪接的問題也沒有什麼造不造假的問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 709.833, \"end\": 710.013, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 710.013, \"end\": 710.133, \"score\": 0.713}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 710.133, \"end\": 710.313, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 710.313, \"end\": 710.453, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 710.453, \"end\": 710.613, \"score\": 0.616}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 710.613, \"end\": 711.033, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 711.033, \"end\": 711.633, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 711.633, \"end\": 712.054, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 712.054, \"end\": 712.194, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 712.194, \"end\": 712.374, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": 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00:01:03,325\n兩部分一個是兩岸的整體的情勢那這部分在上個禮拜的專報也跟委員說明過那中共現在對台的政策還是依循他和平統一的路線只是在和平統一的同時也增加對台的脅迫性透過複合式威脅的手段來對我們進行施壓這是第一個部分那第二部分是針對香港的基本法的部分那因為香港的立法局已經通過了維護國家安全條例那預計在3月23號開始進行施行目前大概評估的重點\n\n4\n00:01:04,165 --> 00:01:04,466\n對我方的影響\n\n5\n00:01:22,628 --> 00:01:46,779\n也就是對於香港的自治還有香港的司法以及基本權益會產生非常大的衝擊所以可能委員也注意到昨天很多歐美西方國家針對這一部分已經提出非常多的批評對我們的影響來講因為在香港通過了這個維護國家安全條例之後他的很多的條文的細項對於所謂的間諜活動叛亂罪跟叛國罪描述並沒有那麼的細緻\n\n6\n00:01:47,699 --> 00:02:16,373\n那未來可能會有解釋權被擴大的這種疑慮所以我們會建議假如國人到香港去進行旅遊或相關的商務的活動的話入出境的時候可能還是要注意一下因為已經有案例顯示了國人在入境香港過程當中遭到了留置約談而這個案例是在這一個維護安全國家安全條例通過之前就發生了所以未來可能國人到香港去我們還是會提醒一下假如說過去曾經有公開的對大陸的一些問題做一些討論或質疑\n\n7\n00:02:17,233 --> 00:02:35,695\n或是手機裏面有一些批評大陸的一些相關的信息那如果有一些國安的資訊比方說像是有透露總統的談話透露行政院長的談話或是手機裏面有一些我們的機密資料包含我們的委員等等的\n\n8\n00:02:36,115 --> 00:02:53,765\n那到香港去您會擔心說會有外流的情形嗎?對我們剛才在提醒說到香港去可能要特別注意到自己相關的資通訊設備有可能在進入海關的時候因為被留置約談而進行安全檢查那這部分可能要特別小心以免入境過程當中無端入罪\n\n9\n00:02:54,005 --> 00:03:12,462\n等下還會再問你這個但我想先再補問一個就是說美國印太司令部的司令阿基里他說所有的跡象表明中國會在2027年做好入侵台灣的準備在這方面所謂2027年入侵台灣他的說法國安局目前的情資顯示是如何的\n\n10\n00:03:13,322 --> 00:03:37,540\n對於國際各方面的政府單位或研究機構有關於台海情勢的討論我們都非常的重視那針對2027年這個年份我們過去也曾經在委員會裡面跟大家報告因為2027年它本身是一個非常非常重要的有政治性跟軍事性的年份它是重要的政治年份因為它是習近平可能要不要進入到第四任任期重要的一個轉折點2027年\n\n11\n00:03:38,641 --> 00:03:39,341\n徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n12\n00:04:01,548 --> 00:04:29,433\n回到剛上一題我們談到了就是說您說呢比如說像香港基本法通過之後您會擔心說國人的手機或是一些資訊那可能在出入境的時候那會有一些外泄外流的情況那我相信如果到大陸去的話您也會做同樣的擔心對吧那我想請問一下就是主席我們這邊也想要請那個調查局一起好不好今天調查局局長也有在現場好我們請是不是請王局長也一起\n\n13\n00:04:29,893 --> 00:04:55,000\n因為上一次呢我就有問過您有關於一些大家很重視的重要的政治人物的相關影片到底是屬於de-fake或是真實流出的部分進行一些提問那但是呢局長你講說很多的是在包含是調查局或是檢調這個部分所以今天調查局長有來我又要再一次追問我們先從比較重要的幾位開始來詢問那個請問一下這個鄭文燦副院長他\n\n14\n00:04:59,862 --> 00:05:13,758\n這個影片齁那當時就有立法委員提出然後請調查局去調查他到底是不是身為然後有沒有所謂中共借選的問題請問調查局這個部分調查的情況是如何的怎麼後續都沒有跟國人做說明呢\n\n15\n00:05:14,907 --> 00:05:31,116\n跟委員報告有關這些政治人士他們的一些我先一個一個問好不好那個鄭文燦就好了那有關於這個鄭副院長的部分因為沒有鄭副院長只有副院長不要把那個院長一起講進來沒有院長只有副院長\n\n16\n00:05:33,220 --> 00:05:33,900\n徐巧芯的檢測結果是什麼\n\n17\n00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:27,452\n因為這個部分我們受限於偵查不公開必須要假官同意但是我問一下那如果是假的是不是就要公開啊因為如果是dfake的話那這個我們的副院長變成是dfake在外面這樣流傳對我國的形象還有對他個人還有對社會當時在選舉影響甚大那是不是如果是假的就會立刻公開呢那你沒有公開是不是大家就會覺得是真的呢\n\n18\n00:06:28,357 --> 00:06:54,998\n跟委員報告因為這個裡面有涉及到其他的一些的因素什麼叫其他的一些因素比如說是不是有涉及到其他的這個刑事犯罪的部分那所以他不是一個誰刑事犯罪你是說外流的人刑事犯罪比如說這些影片它的來源是從哪裡來是不是有什麼其他的這個有偷拍啊取得啊或者是散步啊等等這些\n\n19\n00:06:55,558 --> 00:07:13,958\n可是對這個部分是刑事調查嘛有檢調來調查但是呢當時包含這個影片在我們應該是記得是司法法治委員會的時候那王豪威委員就直接拿了原件請調查局去調查真偽那請問我們只針對真偽的部分來了解說到底是真的假的呀\n\n20\n00:07:14,358 --> 00:07:33,930\n因為如果是假的你一定要向大家說明啊那如果是真的話那可能就要考慮當事人的想法就不一定要做說明那請問這個部分到底是真的還假的跟委員報告就是說當時影片我們立刻做的是有關於de-fake的部分是有關於有沒有這個AI身為的部分\n\n21\n00:07:34,850 --> 00:07:57,433\n那但是影片的真偽齁除了深偽的判斷以外也有其他的這個造假的問題齁喔好我知道我懂你意思所以Dfake的部分是或不是啊一個階段一個階段來嘛有可能有其他造假但是你第一階段先針對AI生成Dfake的部分去了解所以它是一個DfakeAI的影片嗎\n\n22\n00:07:58,325 --> 00:08:02,848\n可是如果是假的話你如果是真的我們在選舉期間遭受到我們重要的政治領袖被DFAQAI攻擊的話\n\n23\n00:08:13,695 --> 00:08:34,984\n那應該是一定要向國人知道這麼嚴重的情況那可能涉及中共屆選可能涉及更多的問題這個是屬於因為我們在講偵查不公開的時候它裡面還有包含一個部分如果對於社會有重大影響的應該要做適度的說明而不是不做說明這個是在偵查不公開的例外的條件所以我想要請問說按照您的意思我剛剛聽起來是說\n\n24\n00:08:36,304 --> 00:09:00,807\n針對DFAQ跟AI調查發現沒有DFAQ跟AI的問題但你們還要去了解還有沒有其他造假的元素像是這樣子我的解讀有錯嗎就是說除了這個AIDFAQ的檢測部分之外那甲官也要求我們來做這要求我們的鑑識科學處來做說他這有沒有被造假的這個問題\n\n25\n00:09:02,248 --> 00:09:05,089\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n26\n00:09:20,881 --> 00:09:48,385\n對,我們是接受檢察官的指揮我們來進行這個相關的證據的檢查那這個部分我大概懂了那第二個部分是有關於我們的政治人物有沒有去錄總統跟院長的音這個因為當時傳出來說羅志正也是我們國防外交過去資深的召委他去錄音錄了蔡英文總統跟行政院蘇院長那這個是涉及到很大的國安問題上一次我也問局長了請問一下這個錄音檔有沒有變照\n\n27\n00:09:49,931 --> 00:10:09,960\n跟委員報告這一件也是羅前委員他也是在這個事情發生以後他很快的就來跟我們新北處報告來提告我們新北處受理以後我們也報請檢察官來指揮偵辦\n\n28\n00:10:11,201 --> 00:10:36,839\n那這個AI的這個有沒有DFAG的這樣的一個情況這個哪有DFAG我是說錄音檔欸你不要一直看左邊那張圖好不好我問錄音檔那個錄音檔的部分那個音源的部分我們有檢測出來那檢測出來一樣我們也是交給台北地檢署有沒有剪接變照有沒有變照總統的因為今天是國安的因素我們才在乎\n\n29\n00:10:37,219 --> 00:11:03,778\n那個行事歸行事喔他們有沒有誰犯不犯法那個歸他們齁我們要知道的是說我們有沒有國安的疑慮這個是行政行政跟檢調司法這是兩塊所以在行政上面這有沒有為師他有沒有去就是變成一個國安問題他去他去偷錄總統的陰還是說有什麼中共啊幹嘛幹嘛的去造假這件事情這兩個是完全不一樣後續是完全不一樣的方向我問你是哪一種\n\n30\n00:11:04,878 --> 00:11:31,092\n跟委員說明有關於這個案子是臺北地檢署的檢察官在指揮偵辦當中那除了這個錄音檔有沒有被defect之外那錄音檔本身他的這個內容也是一樣在做檢測那除此之外我們也傳喚了這個相關的人士我們也有來進行一個你傳喚了相關人士應該不是傳喚蔡總統或是蘇院長所以是羅志政委員\n\n31\n00:11:31,732 --> 00:11:33,593\n那你們調查的部分怎麼樣啊?你們的部分啊?\n\n32\n00:11:49,833 --> 00:12:16,280\n我一再的跟委員說明就這個部分我們還是尊重檢察官但是如果說有去變造了我國總統的錄音這麼大的事件的話他就會在偵查不公開以外還有一個例外叫做要適度對社會做說明所以我可不可以解讀成說你們覺得這個是要進到司法程序是看誰有罪誰沒罪所以其實實際上你們調查出來就沒有什麼剪不剪接的問題也沒有什麼造不造假的問題\n\n33\n00:12:17,401 --> 00:12:28,680\n我相信檢察官在偵查終結之後會對外說明我不曉得要多久最後一個問題問一下就是說這幾位啊我們那個調查局有約談哪一些人了\n\n34\n00:12:31,266 --> 00:12:53,794\n呃像這個羅先生這一件啊是本人當事人約談他趙天寧有約談嗎呃這個趙天寧的部分啊目前我們是先把相關的證據收集齊全以後啊送給蔣阿官會約談嗎不知道如果蔣阿官對蔣阿官只是我們鄭文燦副院長約談嗎他本人他本人他就提告OK好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1173\t3301\t謝謝主席 那我想我們有請蔡明彥局長請\n10560\t33766\t好 謝主席 薛委員早早安 那局長我想先問一下兩岸最近的情勢跟情況呢包含是被說成是世界上最危險的地方變得更加的危險那以及呢在香港的基本法通過之後請問一下在相關情資收集的部分對我國的影響有哪些方面\n34746\t63325\t兩部分一個是兩岸的整體的情勢那這部分在上個禮拜的專報也跟委員說明過那中共現在對台的政策還是依循他和平統一的路線只是在和平統一的同時也增加對台的脅迫性透過複合式威脅的手段來對我們進行施壓這是第一個部分那第二部分是針對香港的基本法的部分那因為香港的立法局已經通過了維護國家安全條例那預計在3月23號開始進行施行目前大概評估的重點\n64165\t64466\t對我方的影響\n82628\t106779\t也就是對於香港的自治還有香港的司法以及基本權益會產生非常大的衝擊所以可能委員也注意到昨天很多歐美西方國家針對這一部分已經提出非常多的批評對我們的影響來講因為在香港通過了這個維護國家安全條例之後他的很多的條文的細項對於所謂的間諜活動叛亂罪跟叛國罪描述並沒有那麼的細緻\n107699\t136373\t那未來可能會有解釋權被擴大的這種疑慮所以我們會建議假如國人到香港去進行旅遊或相關的商務的活動的話入出境的時候可能還是要注意一下因為已經有案例顯示了國人在入境香港過程當中遭到了留置約談而這個案例是在這一個維護安全國家安全條例通過之前就發生了所以未來可能國人到香港去我們還是會提醒一下假如說過去曾經有公開的對大陸的一些問題做一些討論或質疑\n137233\t155695\t或是手機裏面有一些批評大陸的一些相關的信息那如果有一些國安的資訊比方說像是有透露總統的談話透露行政院長的談話或是手機裏面有一些我們的機密資料包含我們的委員等等的\n156115\t173765\t那到香港去您會擔心說會有外流的情形嗎?對我們剛才在提醒說到香港去可能要特別注意到自己相關的資通訊設備有可能在進入海關的時候因為被留置約談而進行安全檢查那這部分可能要特別小心以免入境過程當中無端入罪\n174005\t192462\t等下還會再問你這個但我想先再補問一個就是說美國印太司令部的司令阿基里他說所有的跡象表明中國會在2027年做好入侵台灣的準備在這方面所謂2027年入侵台灣他的說法國安局目前的情資顯示是如何的\n193322\t217540\t對於國際各方面的政府單位或研究機構有關於台海情勢的討論我們都非常的重視那針對2027年這個年份我們過去也曾經在委員會裡面跟大家報告因為2027年它本身是一個非常非常重要的有政治性跟軍事性的年份它是重要的政治年份因為它是習近平可能要不要進入到第四任任期重要的一個轉折點2027年\n218641\t219341\t徐巧芯徐巧芯\n241548\t269433\t回到剛上一題我們談到了就是說您說呢比如說像香港基本法通過之後您會擔心說國人的手機或是一些資訊那可能在出入境的時候那會有一些外泄外流的情況那我相信如果到大陸去的話您也會做同樣的擔心對吧那我想請問一下就是主席我們這邊也想要請那個調查局一起好不好今天調查局局長也有在現場好我們請是不是請王局長也一起\n269893\t295000\t因為上一次呢我就有問過您有關於一些大家很重視的重要的政治人物的相關影片到底是屬於de-fake或是真實流出的部分進行一些提問那但是呢局長你講說很多的是在包含是調查局或是檢調這個部分所以今天調查局長有來我又要再一次追問我們先從比較重要的幾位開始來詢問那個請問一下這個鄭文燦副院長他\n299862\t313758\t這個影片齁那當時就有立法委員提出然後請調查局去調查他到底是不是身為然後有沒有所謂中共借選的問題請問調查局這個部分調查的情況是如何的怎麼後續都沒有跟國人做說明呢\n314907\t331116\t跟委員報告有關這些政治人士他們的一些我先一個一個問好不好那個鄭文燦就好了那有關於這個鄭副院長的部分因為沒有鄭副院長只有副院長不要把那個院長一起講進來沒有院長只有副院長\n333220\t333900\t徐巧芯的檢測結果是什麼\n364080\t387452\t因為這個部分我們受限於偵查不公開必須要假官同意但是我問一下那如果是假的是不是就要公開啊因為如果是d fake的話那這個我們的副院長變成是d fake在外面這樣流傳對我國的形象還有對他個人還有對社會當時在選舉影響甚大那是不是如果是假的就會立刻公開呢那你沒有公開是不是大家就會覺得是真的呢\n388357\t414998\t跟委員報告因為這個裡面有涉及到其他的一些的因素什麼叫其他的一些因素比如說是不是有涉及到其他的這個刑事犯罪的部分那所以他不是一個誰刑事犯罪你是說外流的人刑事犯罪比如說這些影片它的來源是從哪裡來是不是有什麼其他的這個有偷拍啊取得啊或者是散步啊等等這些\n415558\t433958\t可是對 這個部分是刑事調查嘛有檢調來調查但是呢 當時包含這個影片在我們應該是記得是司法法治委員會的時候那王豪威委員就直接拿了原件請調查局去調查真偽那請問我們只針對真偽的部分來了解說到底是真的假的呀\n434358\t453930\t因為如果是假的你一定要向大家說明啊那如果是真的話那可能就要考慮當事人的想法就不一定要做說明那請問這個部分到底是真的還假的跟委員報告就是說當時影片我們立刻做的是有關於de-fake的部分是有關於有沒有這個AI身為的部分\n454850\t477433\t那但是影片的真偽齁除了深偽的判斷以外也有其他的這個造假的問題齁喔好我知道我懂你意思所以D fake的部分是或不是啊一個階段一個階段來嘛有可能有其他造假但是你第一階段先針對AI生成D fake的部分去了解所以它是一個D fake AI的影片嗎\n478325\t482848\t可是如果是假的話你如果是真的我們在選舉期間遭受到我們重要的政治領袖被DFAQ AI攻擊的話\n493695\t514984\t那應該是一定要向國人知道這麼嚴重的情況那可能涉及中共屆選可能涉及更多的問題這個是屬於因為我們在講偵查不公開的時候它裡面還有包含一個部分如果對於社會有重大影響的應該要做適度的說明而不是不做說明這個是在偵查不公開的例外的條件所以我想要請問說按照您的意思我剛剛聽起來是說\n516304\t540807\t針對DFAQ跟AI調查發現沒有DFAQ跟AI的問題但你們還要去了解還有沒有其他造假的元素像是這樣子我的解讀有錯嗎就是說除了這個AI DFAQ的檢測部分之外那甲官也要求我們來做這要求我們的鑑識科學處來做說他這有沒有被造假的這個問題\n542248\t545089\t徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n560881\t588385\t對,我們是接受檢察官的指揮我們來進行這個相關的證據的檢查那這個部分我大概懂了那第二個部分是有關於我們的政治人物有沒有去錄總統跟院長的音這個因為當時傳出來說羅志正也是我們國防外交過去資深的召委他去錄音錄了蔡英文總統跟行政院蘇院長那這個是涉及到很大的國安問題上一次我也問局長了請問一下這個錄音檔有沒有變照\n589931\t609960\t跟委員報告這一件也是羅前委員他也是在這個事情發生以後他很快的就來跟我們新北處報告來提告我們新北處受理以後我們也報請檢察官來指揮偵辦\n611201\t636839\t那這個AI的這個有沒有DFAG的這樣的一個情況這個哪有DFAG我是說錄音檔欸你不要一直看左邊那張圖好不好我問錄音檔那個錄音檔的部分那個音源的部分我們有檢測出來那檢測出來一樣我們也是交給台北地檢署有沒有剪接變照有沒有變照總統的因為今天是國安的因素我們才在乎\n637219\t663778\t那個行事歸行事喔他們有沒有誰犯不犯法那個歸他們齁我們要知道的是說我們有沒有國安的疑慮這個是行政行政跟檢調司法這是兩塊所以在行政上面這有沒有為師他有沒有去就是變成一個國安問題他去他去偷錄總統的陰還是說有什麼中共啊幹嘛幹嘛的去造假這件事情這兩個是完全不一樣後續是完全不一樣的方向我問你是哪一種\n664878\t691092\t跟委員說明有關於這個案子是臺北地檢署的檢察官在指揮偵辦當中那除了這個錄音檔有沒有被defect之外那錄音檔本身他的這個內容也是一樣在做檢測那除此之外我們也傳喚了這個相關的人士我們也有來進行一個你傳喚了相關人士應該不是傳喚蔡總統或是蘇院長所以是羅志政委員\n691732\t693593\t那你們調查的部分怎麼樣啊?你們的部分啊?\n709833\t736280\t我一再的跟委員說明就這個部分我們還是尊重檢察官但是如果說有去變造了我國總統的錄音這麼大的事件的話他就會在偵查不公開以外還有一個例外叫做要適度對社會做說明所以我可不可以解讀成說你們覺得這個是要進到司法程序是看誰有罪誰沒罪所以其實實際上你們調查出來就沒有什麼剪不剪接的問題也沒有什麼造不造假的問題\n737401\t748680\t我相信檢察官在偵查終結之後會對外說明我不曉得要多久最後一個問題問一下就是說這幾位啊我們那個調查局有約談哪一些人了\n751266\t773794\t呃像這個羅先生這一件啊是本人當事人約談他趙天寧有約談嗎呃這個趙天寧的部分啊目前我們是先把相關的證據收集齊全以後啊送給蔣阿官會約談嗎不知道如果蔣阿官對蔣阿官只是我們鄭文燦副院長約談嗎他本人他本人他就提告OK好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 那我想我們有請蔡明彥局長請\n好 謝主席 薛委員早早安 那局長我想先問一下兩岸最近的情勢跟情況呢包含是被說成是世界上最危險的地方變得更加的危險那以及呢在香港的基本法通過之後請問一下在相關情資收集的部分對我國的影響有哪些方面\n兩部分一個是兩岸的整體的情勢那這部分在上個禮拜的專報也跟委員說明過那中共現在對台的政策還是依循他和平統一的路線只是在和平統一的同時也增加對台的脅迫性透過複合式威脅的手段來對我們進行施壓這是第一個部分那第二部分是針對香港的基本法的部分那因為香港的立法局已經通過了維護國家安全條例那預計在3月23號開始進行施行目前大概評估的重點\n對我方的影響\n也就是對於香港的自治還有香港的司法以及基本權益會產生非常大的衝擊所以可能委員也注意到昨天很多歐美西方國家針對這一部分已經提出非常多的批評對我們的影響來講因為在香港通過了這個維護國家安全條例之後他的很多的條文的細項對於所謂的間諜活動叛亂罪跟叛國罪描述並沒有那麼的細緻\n那未來可能會有解釋權被擴大的這種疑慮所以我們會建議假如國人到香港去進行旅遊或相關的商務的活動的話入出境的時候可能還是要注意一下因為已經有案例顯示了國人在入境香港過程當中遭到了留置約談而這個案例是在這一個維護安全國家安全條例通過之前就發生了所以未來可能國人到香港去我們還是會提醒一下假如說過去曾經有公開的對大陸的一些問題做一些討論或質疑\n或是手機裏面有一些批評大陸的一些相關的信息那如果有一些國安的資訊比方說像是有透露總統的談話透露行政院長的談話或是手機裏面有一些我們的機密資料包含我們的委員等等的\n那到香港去您會擔心說會有外流的情形嗎?對我們剛才在提醒說到香港去可能要特別注意到自己相關的資通訊設備有可能在進入海關的時候因為被留置約談而進行安全檢查那這部分可能要特別小心以免入境過程當中無端入罪\n等下還會再問你這個但我想先再補問一個就是說美國印太司令部的司令阿基里他說所有的跡象表明中國會在2027年做好入侵台灣的準備在這方面所謂2027年入侵台灣他的說法國安局目前的情資顯示是如何的\n對於國際各方面的政府單位或研究機構有關於台海情勢的討論我們都非常的重視那針對2027年這個年份我們過去也曾經在委員會裡面跟大家報告因為2027年它本身是一個非常非常重要的有政治性跟軍事性的年份它是重要的政治年份因為它是習近平可能要不要進入到第四任任期重要的一個轉折點2027年\n徐巧芯徐巧芯\n回到剛上一題我們談到了就是說您說呢比如說像香港基本法通過之後您會擔心說國人的手機或是一些資訊那可能在出入境的時候那會有一些外泄外流的情況那我相信如果到大陸去的話您也會做同樣的擔心對吧那我想請問一下就是主席我們這邊也想要請那個調查局一起好不好今天調查局局長也有在現場好我們請是不是請王局長也一起\n因為上一次呢我就有問過您有關於一些大家很重視的重要的政治人物的相關影片到底是屬於de-fake或是真實流出的部分進行一些提問那但是呢局長你講說很多的是在包含是調查局或是檢調這個部分所以今天調查局長有來我又要再一次追問我們先從比較重要的幾位開始來詢問那個請問一下這個鄭文燦副院長他\n這個影片齁那當時就有立法委員提出然後請調查局去調查他到底是不是身為然後有沒有所謂中共借選的問題請問調查局這個部分調查的情況是如何的怎麼後續都沒有跟國人做說明呢\n跟委員報告有關這些政治人士他們的一些我先一個一個問好不好那個鄭文燦就好了那有關於這個鄭副院長的部分因為沒有鄭副院長只有副院長不要把那個院長一起講進來沒有院長只有副院長\n徐巧芯的檢測結果是什麼\n因為這個部分我們受限於偵查不公開必須要假官同意但是我問一下那如果是假的是不是就要公開啊因為如果是d fake的話那這個我們的副院長變成是d fake在外面這樣流傳對我國的形象還有對他個人還有對社會當時在選舉影響甚大那是不是如果是假的就會立刻公開呢那你沒有公開是不是大家就會覺得是真的呢\n跟委員報告因為這個裡面有涉及到其他的一些的因素什麼叫其他的一些因素比如說是不是有涉及到其他的這個刑事犯罪的部分那所以他不是一個誰刑事犯罪你是說外流的人刑事犯罪比如說這些影片它的來源是從哪裡來是不是有什麼其他的這個有偷拍啊取得啊或者是散步啊等等這些\n可是對 這個部分是刑事調查嘛有檢調來調查但是呢 當時包含這個影片在我們應該是記得是司法法治委員會的時候那王豪威委員就直接拿了原件請調查局去調查真偽那請問我們只針對真偽的部分來了解說到底是真的假的呀\n因為如果是假的你一定要向大家說明啊那如果是真的話那可能就要考慮當事人的想法就不一定要做說明那請問這個部分到底是真的還假的跟委員報告就是說當時影片我們立刻做的是有關於de-fake的部分是有關於有沒有這個AI身為的部分\n那但是影片的真偽齁除了深偽的判斷以外也有其他的這個造假的問題齁喔好我知道我懂你意思所以D fake的部分是或不是啊一個階段一個階段來嘛有可能有其他造假但是你第一階段先針對AI生成D fake的部分去了解所以它是一個D fake AI的影片嗎\n可是如果是假的話你如果是真的我們在選舉期間遭受到我們重要的政治領袖被DFAQ AI攻擊的話\n那應該是一定要向國人知道這麼嚴重的情況那可能涉及中共屆選可能涉及更多的問題這個是屬於因為我們在講偵查不公開的時候它裡面還有包含一個部分如果對於社會有重大影響的應該要做適度的說明而不是不做說明這個是在偵查不公開的例外的條件所以我想要請問說按照您的意思我剛剛聽起來是說\n針對DFAQ跟AI調查發現沒有DFAQ跟AI的問題但你們還要去了解還有沒有其他造假的元素像是這樣子我的解讀有錯嗎就是說除了這個AI DFAQ的檢測部分之外那甲官也要求我們來做這要求我們的鑑識科學處來做說他這有沒有被造假的這個問題\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n對,我們是接受檢察官的指揮我們來進行這個相關的證據的檢查那這個部分我大概懂了那第二個部分是有關於我們的政治人物有沒有去錄總統跟院長的音這個因為當時傳出來說羅志正也是我們國防外交過去資深的召委他去錄音錄了蔡英文總統跟行政院蘇院長那這個是涉及到很大的國安問題上一次我也問局長了請問一下這個錄音檔有沒有變照\n跟委員報告這一件也是羅前委員他也是在這個事情發生以後他很快的就來跟我們新北處報告來提告我們新北處受理以後我們也報請檢察官來指揮偵辦\n那這個AI的這個有沒有DFAG的這樣的一個情況這個哪有DFAG我是說錄音檔欸你不要一直看左邊那張圖好不好我問錄音檔那個錄音檔的部分那個音源的部分我們有檢測出來那檢測出來一樣我們也是交給台北地檢署有沒有剪接變照有沒有變照總統的因為今天是國安的因素我們才在乎\n那個行事歸行事喔他們有沒有誰犯不犯法那個歸他們齁我們要知道的是說我們有沒有國安的疑慮這個是行政行政跟檢調司法這是兩塊所以在行政上面這有沒有為師他有沒有去就是變成一個國安問題他去他去偷錄總統的陰還是說有什麼中共啊幹嘛幹嘛的去造假這件事情這兩個是完全不一樣後續是完全不一樣的方向我問你是哪一種\n跟委員說明有關於這個案子是臺北地檢署的檢察官在指揮偵辦當中那除了這個錄音檔有沒有被defect之外那錄音檔本身他的這個內容也是一樣在做檢測那除此之外我們也傳喚了這個相關的人士我們也有來進行一個你傳喚了相關人士應該不是傳喚蔡總統或是蘇院長所以是羅志政委員\n那你們調查的部分怎麼樣啊?你們的部分啊?\n我一再的跟委員說明就這個部分我們還是尊重檢察官但是如果說有去變造了我國總統的錄音這麼大的事件的話他就會在偵查不公開以外還有一個例外叫做要適度對社會做說明所以我可不可以解讀成說你們覺得這個是要進到司法程序是看誰有罪誰沒罪所以其實實際上你們調查出來就沒有什麼剪不剪接的問題也沒有什麼造不造假的問題\n我相信檢察官在偵查終結之後會對外說明我不曉得要多久最後一個問題問一下就是說這幾位啊我們那個調查局有約談哪一些人了\n呃像這個羅先生這一件啊是本人當事人約談他趙天寧有約談嗎呃這個趙天寧的部分啊目前我們是先把相關的證據收集齊全以後啊送給蔣阿官會約談嗎不知道如果蔣阿官對蔣阿官只是我們鄭文燦副院長約談嗎他本人他本人他就提告OK好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.173 --> 00:03.301\n謝謝主席那我想我們有請蔡明彥局長請\n\n00:10.560 --> 00:33.766\n好謝主席薛委員早早安那局長我想先問一下兩岸最近的情勢跟情況呢包含是被說成是世界上最危險的地方變得更加的危險那以及呢在香港的基本法通過之後請問一下在相關情資收集的部分對我國的影響有哪些方面\n\n00:34.746 --> 01:03.325\n兩部分一個是兩岸的整體的情勢那這部分在上個禮拜的專報也跟委員說明過那中共現在對台的政策還是依循他和平統一的路線只是在和平統一的同時也增加對台的脅迫性透過複合式威脅的手段來對我們進行施壓這是第一個部分那第二部分是針對香港的基本法的部分那因為香港的立法局已經通過了維護國家安全條例那預計在3月23號開始進行施行目前大概評估的重點\n\n01:04.165 --> 01:04.466\n對我方的影響\n\n01:22.628 --> 01:46.779\n也就是對於香港的自治還有香港的司法以及基本權益會產生非常大的衝擊所以可能委員也注意到昨天很多歐美西方國家針對這一部分已經提出非常多的批評對我們的影響來講因為在香港通過了這個維護國家安全條例之後他的很多的條文的細項對於所謂的間諜活動叛亂罪跟叛國罪描述並沒有那麼的細緻\n\n01:47.699 --> 02:16.373\n那未來可能會有解釋權被擴大的這種疑慮所以我們會建議假如國人到香港去進行旅遊或相關的商務的活動的話入出境的時候可能還是要注意一下因為已經有案例顯示了國人在入境香港過程當中遭到了留置約談而這個案例是在這一個維護安全國家安全條例通過之前就發生了所以未來可能國人到香港去我們還是會提醒一下假如說過去曾經有公開的對大陸的一些問題做一些討論或質疑\n\n02:17.233 --> 02:35.695\n或是手機裏面有一些批評大陸的一些相關的信息那如果有一些國安的資訊比方說像是有透露總統的談話透露行政院長的談話或是手機裏面有一些我們的機密資料包含我們的委員等等的\n\n02:36.115 --> 02:53.765\n那到香港去您會擔心說會有外流的情形嗎?對我們剛才在提醒說到香港去可能要特別注意到自己相關的資通訊設備有可能在進入海關的時候因為被留置約談而進行安全檢查那這部分可能要特別小心以免入境過程當中無端入罪\n\n02:54.005 --> 03:12.462\n等下還會再問你這個但我想先再補問一個就是說美國印太司令部的司令阿基里他說所有的跡象表明中國會在2027年做好入侵台灣的準備在這方面所謂2027年入侵台灣他的說法國安局目前的情資顯示是如何的\n\n03:13.322 --> 03:37.540\n對於國際各方面的政府單位或研究機構有關於台海情勢的討論我們都非常的重視那針對2027年這個年份我們過去也曾經在委員會裡面跟大家報告因為2027年它本身是一個非常非常重要的有政治性跟軍事性的年份它是重要的政治年份因為它是習近平可能要不要進入到第四任任期重要的一個轉折點2027年\n\n03:38.641 --> 03:39.341\n徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n04:01.548 --> 04:29.433\n回到剛上一題我們談到了就是說您說呢比如說像香港基本法通過之後您會擔心說國人的手機或是一些資訊那可能在出入境的時候那會有一些外泄外流的情況那我相信如果到大陸去的話您也會做同樣的擔心對吧那我想請問一下就是主席我們這邊也想要請那個調查局一起好不好今天調查局局長也有在現場好我們請是不是請王局長也一起\n\n04:29.893 --> 04:55.000\n因為上一次呢我就有問過您有關於一些大家很重視的重要的政治人物的相關影片到底是屬於de-fake或是真實流出的部分進行一些提問那但是呢局長你講說很多的是在包含是調查局或是檢調這個部分所以今天調查局長有來我又要再一次追問我們先從比較重要的幾位開始來詢問那個請問一下這個鄭文燦副院長他\n\n04:59.862 --> 05:13.758\n這個影片齁那當時就有立法委員提出然後請調查局去調查他到底是不是身為然後有沒有所謂中共借選的問題請問調查局這個部分調查的情況是如何的怎麼後續都沒有跟國人做說明呢\n\n05:14.907 --> 05:31.116\n跟委員報告有關這些政治人士他們的一些我先一個一個問好不好那個鄭文燦就好了那有關於這個鄭副院長的部分因為沒有鄭副院長只有副院長不要把那個院長一起講進來沒有院長只有副院長\n\n05:33.220 --> 05:33.900\n徐巧芯的檢測結果是什麼\n\n06:04.080 --> 06:27.452\n因為這個部分我們受限於偵查不公開必須要假官同意但是我問一下那如果是假的是不是就要公開啊因為如果是dfake的話那這個我們的副院長變成是dfake在外面這樣流傳對我國的形象還有對他個人還有對社會當時在選舉影響甚大那是不是如果是假的就會立刻公開呢那你沒有公開是不是大家就會覺得是真的呢\n\n06:28.357 --> 06:54.998\n跟委員報告因為這個裡面有涉及到其他的一些的因素什麼叫其他的一些因素比如說是不是有涉及到其他的這個刑事犯罪的部分那所以他不是一個誰刑事犯罪你是說外流的人刑事犯罪比如說這些影片它的來源是從哪裡來是不是有什麼其他的這個有偷拍啊取得啊或者是散步啊等等這些\n\n06:55.558 --> 07:13.958\n可是對這個部分是刑事調查嘛有檢調來調查但是呢當時包含這個影片在我們應該是記得是司法法治委員會的時候那王豪威委員就直接拿了原件請調查局去調查真偽那請問我們只針對真偽的部分來了解說到底是真的假的呀\n\n07:14.358 --> 07:33.930\n因為如果是假的你一定要向大家說明啊那如果是真的話那可能就要考慮當事人的想法就不一定要做說明那請問這個部分到底是真的還假的跟委員報告就是說當時影片我們立刻做的是有關於de-fake的部分是有關於有沒有這個AI身為的部分\n\n07:34.850 --> 07:57.433\n那但是影片的真偽齁除了深偽的判斷以外也有其他的這個造假的問題齁喔好我知道我懂你意思所以Dfake的部分是或不是啊一個階段一個階段來嘛有可能有其他造假但是你第一階段先針對AI生成Dfake的部分去了解所以它是一個DfakeAI的影片嗎\n\n07:58.325 --> 08:02.848\n可是如果是假的話你如果是真的我們在選舉期間遭受到我們重要的政治領袖被DFAQAI攻擊的話\n\n08:13.695 --> 08:34.984\n那應該是一定要向國人知道這麼嚴重的情況那可能涉及中共屆選可能涉及更多的問題這個是屬於因為我們在講偵查不公開的時候它裡面還有包含一個部分如果對於社會有重大影響的應該要做適度的說明而不是不做說明這個是在偵查不公開的例外的條件所以我想要請問說按照您的意思我剛剛聽起來是說\n\n08:36.304 --> 09:00.807\n針對DFAQ跟AI調查發現沒有DFAQ跟AI的問題但你們還要去了解還有沒有其他造假的元素像是這樣子我的解讀有錯嗎就是說除了這個AIDFAQ的檢測部分之外那甲官也要求我們來做這要求我們的鑑識科學處來做說他這有沒有被造假的這個問題\n\n09:02.248 --> 09:05.089\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n09:20.881 --> 09:48.385\n對,我們是接受檢察官的指揮我們來進行這個相關的證據的檢查那這個部分我大概懂了那第二個部分是有關於我們的政治人物有沒有去錄總統跟院長的音這個因為當時傳出來說羅志正也是我們國防外交過去資深的召委他去錄音錄了蔡英文總統跟行政院蘇院長那這個是涉及到很大的國安問題上一次我也問局長了請問一下這個錄音檔有沒有變照\n\n09:49.931 --> 10:09.960\n跟委員報告這一件也是羅前委員他也是在這個事情發生以後他很快的就來跟我們新北處報告來提告我們新北處受理以後我們也報請檢察官來指揮偵辦\n\n10:11.201 --> 10:36.839\n那這個AI的這個有沒有DFAG的這樣的一個情況這個哪有DFAG我是說錄音檔欸你不要一直看左邊那張圖好不好我問錄音檔那個錄音檔的部分那個音源的部分我們有檢測出來那檢測出來一樣我們也是交給台北地檢署有沒有剪接變照有沒有變照總統的因為今天是國安的因素我們才在乎\n\n10:37.219 --> 11:03.778\n那個行事歸行事喔他們有沒有誰犯不犯法那個歸他們齁我們要知道的是說我們有沒有國安的疑慮這個是行政行政跟檢調司法這是兩塊所以在行政上面這有沒有為師他有沒有去就是變成一個國安問題他去他去偷錄總統的陰還是說有什麼中共啊幹嘛幹嘛的去造假這件事情這兩個是完全不一樣後續是完全不一樣的方向我問你是哪一種\n\n11:04.878 --> 11:31.092\n跟委員說明有關於這個案子是臺北地檢署的檢察官在指揮偵辦當中那除了這個錄音檔有沒有被defect之外那錄音檔本身他的這個內容也是一樣在做檢測那除此之外我們也傳喚了這個相關的人士我們也有來進行一個你傳喚了相關人士應該不是傳喚蔡總統或是蘇院長所以是羅志政委員\n\n11:31.732 --> 11:33.593\n那你們調查的部分怎麼樣啊?你們的部分啊?\n\n11:49.833 --> 12:16.280\n我一再的跟委員說明就這個部分我們還是尊重檢察官但是如果說有去變造了我國總統的錄音這麼大的事件的話他就會在偵查不公開以外還有一個例外叫做要適度對社會做說明所以我可不可以解讀成說你們覺得這個是要進到司法程序是看誰有罪誰沒罪所以其實實際上你們調查出來就沒有什麼剪不剪接的問題也沒有什麼造不造假的問題\n\n12:17.401 --> 12:28.680\n我相信檢察官在偵查終結之後會對外說明我不曉得要多久最後一個問題問一下就是說這幾位啊我們那個調查局有約談哪一些人了\n\n12:31.266 --> 12:53.794\n呃像這個羅先生這一件啊是本人當事人約談他趙天寧有約談嗎呃這個趙天寧的部分啊目前我們是先把相關的證據收集齊全以後啊送給蔣阿官會約談嗎不知道如果蔣阿官對蔣阿官只是我們鄭文燦副院長約談嗎他本人他本人他就提告OK好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.173,"end":3.301,"text":"謝謝主席 那我想我們有請蔡明彥局長請"},{"start":10.56,"end":33.766,"text":"好 謝主席 薛委員早早安 那局長我想先問一下兩岸最近的情勢跟情況呢包含是被說成是世界上最危險的地方變得更加的危險那以及呢在香港的基本法通過之後請問一下在相關情資收集的部分對我國的影響有哪些方面"},{"start":34.746,"end":63.325,"text":"兩部分一個是兩岸的整體的情勢那這部分在上個禮拜的專報也跟委員說明過那中共現在對台的政策還是依循他和平統一的路線只是在和平統一的同時也增加對台的脅迫性透過複合式威脅的手段來對我們進行施壓這是第一個部分那第二部分是針對香港的基本法的部分那因為香港的立法局已經通過了維護國家安全條例那預計在3月23號開始進行施行目前大概評估的重點"},{"start":64.165,"end":64.466,"text":"對我方的影響"},{"start":82.628,"end":106.779,"text":"也就是對於香港的自治還有香港的司法以及基本權益會產生非常大的衝擊所以可能委員也注意到昨天很多歐美西方國家針對這一部分已經提出非常多的批評對我們的影響來講因為在香港通過了這個維護國家安全條例之後他的很多的條文的細項對於所謂的間諜活動叛亂罪跟叛國罪描述並沒有那麼的細緻"},{"start":107.699,"end":136.373,"text":"那未來可能會有解釋權被擴大的這種疑慮所以我們會建議假如國人到香港去進行旅遊或相關的商務的活動的話入出境的時候可能還是要注意一下因為已經有案例顯示了國人在入境香港過程當中遭到了留置約談而這個案例是在這一個維護安全國家安全條例通過之前就發生了所以未來可能國人到香港去我們還是會提醒一下假如說過去曾經有公開的對大陸的一些問題做一些討論或質疑"},{"start":137.233,"end":155.695,"text":"或是手機裏面有一些批評大陸的一些相關的信息那如果有一些國安的資訊比方說像是有透露總統的談話透露行政院長的談話或是手機裏面有一些我們的機密資料包含我們的委員等等的"},{"start":156.115,"end":173.765,"text":"那到香港去您會擔心說會有外流的情形嗎?對我們剛才在提醒說到香港去可能要特別注意到自己相關的資通訊設備有可能在進入海關的時候因為被留置約談而進行安全檢查那這部分可能要特別小心以免入境過程當中無端入罪"},{"start":174.005,"end":192.462,"text":"等下還會再問你這個但我想先再補問一個就是說美國印太司令部的司令阿基里他說所有的跡象表明中國會在2027年做好入侵台灣的準備在這方面所謂2027年入侵台灣他的說法國安局目前的情資顯示是如何的"},{"start":193.322,"end":217.54,"text":"對於國際各方面的政府單位或研究機構有關於台海情勢的討論我們都非常的重視那針對2027年這個年份我們過去也曾經在委員會裡面跟大家報告因為2027年它本身是一個非常非常重要的有政治性跟軍事性的年份它是重要的政治年份因為它是習近平可能要不要進入到第四任任期重要的一個轉折點2027年"},{"start":218.641,"end":219.341,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":241.548,"end":269.433,"text":"回到剛上一題我們談到了就是說您說呢比如說像香港基本法通過之後您會擔心說國人的手機或是一些資訊那可能在出入境的時候那會有一些外泄外流的情況那我相信如果到大陸去的話您也會做同樣的擔心對吧那我想請問一下就是主席我們這邊也想要請那個調查局一起好不好今天調查局局長也有在現場好我們請是不是請王局長也一起"},{"start":269.893,"end":295,"text":"因為上一次呢我就有問過您有關於一些大家很重視的重要的政治人物的相關影片到底是屬於de-fake或是真實流出的部分進行一些提問那但是呢局長你講說很多的是在包含是調查局或是檢調這個部分所以今天調查局長有來我又要再一次追問我們先從比較重要的幾位開始來詢問那個請問一下這個鄭文燦副院長他"},{"start":299.862,"end":313.758,"text":"這個影片齁那當時就有立法委員提出然後請調查局去調查他到底是不是身為然後有沒有所謂中共借選的問題請問調查局這個部分調查的情況是如何的怎麼後續都沒有跟國人做說明呢"},{"start":314.907,"end":331.116,"text":"跟委員報告有關這些政治人士他們的一些我先一個一個問好不好那個鄭文燦就好了那有關於這個鄭副院長的部分因為沒有鄭副院長只有副院長不要把那個院長一起講進來沒有院長只有副院長"},{"start":333.22,"end":333.9,"text":"徐巧芯的檢測結果是什麼"},{"start":364.08,"end":387.452,"text":"因為這個部分我們受限於偵查不公開必須要假官同意但是我問一下那如果是假的是不是就要公開啊因為如果是d fake的話那這個我們的副院長變成是d fake在外面這樣流傳對我國的形象還有對他個人還有對社會當時在選舉影響甚大那是不是如果是假的就會立刻公開呢那你沒有公開是不是大家就會覺得是真的呢"},{"start":388.357,"end":414.998,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個裡面有涉及到其他的一些的因素什麼叫其他的一些因素比如說是不是有涉及到其他的這個刑事犯罪的部分那所以他不是一個誰刑事犯罪你是說外流的人刑事犯罪比如說這些影片它的來源是從哪裡來是不是有什麼其他的這個有偷拍啊取得啊或者是散步啊等等這些"},{"start":415.558,"end":433.958,"text":"可是對 這個部分是刑事調查嘛有檢調來調查但是呢 當時包含這個影片在我們應該是記得是司法法治委員會的時候那王豪威委員就直接拿了原件請調查局去調查真偽那請問我們只針對真偽的部分來了解說到底是真的假的呀"},{"start":434.358,"end":453.93,"text":"因為如果是假的你一定要向大家說明啊那如果是真的話那可能就要考慮當事人的想法就不一定要做說明那請問這個部分到底是真的還假的跟委員報告就是說當時影片我們立刻做的是有關於de-fake的部分是有關於有沒有這個AI身為的部分"},{"start":454.85,"end":477.433,"text":"那但是影片的真偽齁除了深偽的判斷以外也有其他的這個造假的問題齁喔好我知道我懂你意思所以D fake的部分是或不是啊一個階段一個階段來嘛有可能有其他造假但是你第一階段先針對AI生成D fake的部分去了解所以它是一個D fake AI的影片嗎"},{"start":478.325,"end":482.848,"text":"可是如果是假的話你如果是真的我們在選舉期間遭受到我們重要的政治領袖被DFAQ AI攻擊的話"},{"start":493.695,"end":514.984,"text":"那應該是一定要向國人知道這麼嚴重的情況那可能涉及中共屆選可能涉及更多的問題這個是屬於因為我們在講偵查不公開的時候它裡面還有包含一個部分如果對於社會有重大影響的應該要做適度的說明而不是不做說明這個是在偵查不公開的例外的條件所以我想要請問說按照您的意思我剛剛聽起來是說"},{"start":516.304,"end":540.807,"text":"針對DFAQ跟AI調查發現沒有DFAQ跟AI的問題但你們還要去了解還有沒有其他造假的元素像是這樣子我的解讀有錯嗎就是說除了這個AI DFAQ的檢測部分之外那甲官也要求我們來做這要求我們的鑑識科學處來做說他這有沒有被造假的這個問題"},{"start":542.248,"end":545.089,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":560.881,"end":588.385,"text":"對,我們是接受檢察官的指揮我們來進行這個相關的證據的檢查那這個部分我大概懂了那第二個部分是有關於我們的政治人物有沒有去錄總統跟院長的音這個因為當時傳出來說羅志正也是我們國防外交過去資深的召委他去錄音錄了蔡英文總統跟行政院蘇院長那這個是涉及到很大的國安問題上一次我也問局長了請問一下這個錄音檔有沒有變照"},{"start":589.931,"end":609.96,"text":"跟委員報告這一件也是羅前委員他也是在這個事情發生以後他很快的就來跟我們新北處報告來提告我們新北處受理以後我們也報請檢察官來指揮偵辦"},{"start":611.201,"end":636.839,"text":"那這個AI的這個有沒有DFAG的這樣的一個情況這個哪有DFAG我是說錄音檔欸你不要一直看左邊那張圖好不好我問錄音檔那個錄音檔的部分那個音源的部分我們有檢測出來那檢測出來一樣我們也是交給台北地檢署有沒有剪接變照有沒有變照總統的因為今天是國安的因素我們才在乎"},{"start":637.219,"end":663.778,"text":"那個行事歸行事喔他們有沒有誰犯不犯法那個歸他們齁我們要知道的是說我們有沒有國安的疑慮這個是行政行政跟檢調司法這是兩塊所以在行政上面這有沒有為師他有沒有去就是變成一個國安問題他去他去偷錄總統的陰還是說有什麼中共啊幹嘛幹嘛的去造假這件事情這兩個是完全不一樣後續是完全不一樣的方向我問你是哪一種"},{"start":664.878,"end":691.092,"text":"跟委員說明有關於這個案子是臺北地檢署的檢察官在指揮偵辦當中那除了這個錄音檔有沒有被defect之外那錄音檔本身他的這個內容也是一樣在做檢測那除此之外我們也傳喚了這個相關的人士我們也有來進行一個你傳喚了相關人士應該不是傳喚蔡總統或是蘇院長所以是羅志政委員"},{"start":691.732,"end":693.593,"text":"那你們調查的部分怎麼樣啊?你們的部分啊?"},{"start":709.833,"end":736.28,"text":"我一再的跟委員說明就這個部分我們還是尊重檢察官但是如果說有去變造了我國總統的錄音這麼大的事件的話他就會在偵查不公開以外還有一個例外叫做要適度對社會做說明所以我可不可以解讀成說你們覺得這個是要進到司法程序是看誰有罪誰沒罪所以其實實際上你們調查出來就沒有什麼剪不剪接的問題也沒有什麼造不造假的問題"},{"start":737.401,"end":748.68,"text":"我相信檢察官在偵查終結之後會對外說明我不曉得要多久最後一個問題問一下就是說這幾位啊我們那個調查局有約談哪一些人了"},{"start":751.266,"end":773.794,"text":"呃像這個羅先生這一件啊是本人當事人約談他趙天寧有約談嗎呃這個趙天寧的部分啊目前我們是先把相關的證據收集齊全以後啊送給蔣阿官會約談嗎不知道如果蔣阿官對蔣阿官只是我們鄭文燦副院長約談嗎他本人他本人他就提告OK好謝謝"}]}}}}