{"id":150221,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150221","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc305274d072eb35bb5435fc681ffd8597cae2f8ba9b0039caa7a69e5d282be114f2d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:31:03 - 10:44:31","影片長度":"00:13:28","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-8"},"date":"2024-03-21","duration":808,"end_time":"2024-03-21T10:44:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-21T10:31:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":226,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時31分）謝謝主席，麻煩局長。"],["主席：好，請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，王委員早。"],["王委員定宇：局長早。本來我們今天早上還有滿多問題要問，但是我很遺憾，馬文君委員還在用老一套的烏龍的烏賊戰術，要來轉移他自己被高檢署偵辦洩密、叛國，那只能說他是黔驢技窮，讓你捲入這個事情我覺得浪費國家資源，不過我們還是要說清楚，我很遺憾他不在，我希望轉播可以弄清楚一點。","第一個，2019年的潛艦機密會議，當時也許馬文君委員忙進忙出，沒有注意上課、沒有聽，當時的召集人黃曙光上將特別報告說所有的工項不宜對外洩漏，但是X尾舵不屬機密，為了怕記者沒東西可以寫，會亂追、亂寫，所以當場委員都有聽到這個X尾舵是可以對外說明的，當時採訪的記者有好幾位現在還在會場內。我們就在外面，我一開頭第一句話就是什麼都不能講，但是X尾舵有授權可以說，所以我們就說採取X尾舵，全球X尾舵都沒有在列機密的。又怕這樣還不夠，我怕字太小，我還放大，可惜當事人不在，這裡有一張海軍的公文，海昌計畫也就是潛艦國造計畫，裡面的安全管制計畫書載明X尾舵從頭到尾都沒有列為機密工項。現在因為洩密韓國被高檢署偵辦，有關二哥大的使用，剛才在詢答過程，各位媒體記者、在看直播的應該聽得到，前後矛盾啊！那證明他就是有用嘛！只是不曉得那叫二哥大嘛！當時怎麼沒有人制止？當時海軍的聯絡人跑到他旁邊，就是現在林楚茵委員坐的位子去跟他講不能用，怎麼會沒有？為了模糊自己洩密被偵辦，有沒有罪我都不講，基於同事和諧，我很少來這邊講這個事情，就讓高檢署去偵辦，有罪就有罪，沒罪就沒罪，被告自證清白就好了。可是拿一個老一套已經澄清過，而且完全烏龍的烏賊手段，想要轉移在偵辦當中身為洩密、叛國的被告，不僅不迴避機敏度高的外交及國防委員會，還被國民黨推舉為召委，這不是墮落嗎？怎麼好意思在那邊講？陳永康上將當召委很適合啊！徐巧芯當召委也很適合啊！每個人都可以當召委，在偵辦中……"],["主席：不好意思，不要扯到我們其他人喔，謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：被偵辦中的人自己就去對司法交代就好了。所以有關潛艦X尾舵是否屬於機密，根據海軍海昌計畫安全管制計畫書、根據當時機密報告的黃曙光的報告內容，以及根據當時我們跟媒體講這個是唯一授權可以講的，因為它無涉機敏，它不是機密工項。如果不在言論免責保護傘下的話，那就說一次告一次，去外面講，不要在那邊模糊焦點，國家利益、國家安全何其重大！我們在這邊要論的是國家政治，而不是個人適不適合坐在那個位子上！","所以回到我們正辦要談論的事情，局長，近期的南海局勢，因為最新的局勢發展是4月11號拜登要召集美日菲三國元首高峰會議，這個高峰會議的主題是什麼？你們有掌握嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：他們這一次大概會針對南海的狀況進行意見的交換，因為特別是在仁愛礁……"],["王委員定宇：他們認為南海的問題是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：他們認為中國在當地的一些挑釁行徑已經破壞到區域的和穩。"],["王委員定宇：所以其實這個美日菲4月11號的三國元首高峰會議裡面就一個主題，就是中國在南海惹是生非、擴張主義、灰色地帶手段，導致區域緊張局勢升高嘛！我們國安局有沒有掌握到美國有提出美菲共同防禦條約？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，他們有在討論這個問題，美國也有重申他們的立場，有必要的話他們會啟動美菲共同防禦機制。"],["王委員定宇：他是不是有提到，如果菲律賓的船、菲律賓的飛機、菲律賓的領土遭受攻擊的話，美國會出手？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這應該是接下來他們峰會也會釐清的一個重點。"],["王委員定宇：對，因為美國如果出手，根據美日安保條約，美日要同盟，同進同出嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：是，這是連動的。"],["王委員定宇：當然這在臺灣周邊，我們的太平島也在那裡，是我們應該要關切的局勢發展，美日菲又影響到臺灣的安全非常重要，北邊宮古海峽以上是日本的西南諸島，與那國島離我們非常近，現在有F35的機場，南邊菲律賓呂宋島距離高雄400公里，最近一個小島離臺灣也差不多一百多公里，美國在呂宋島有4個基地在那邊，所以美日菲跟臺灣的安全議題很有關聯。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以在這個時候，南海的局勢看起來是中國成為推動升溫的唯一力量，美日菲加上澳洲、印度各方，是希望把這個局勢降溫，維持一個基本的國際規範，我這樣詮釋對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我想南海情勢的軍事化大概中共就是始作俑者，非常諷刺的是在2016年中共領導人去會見當時美國總統歐巴馬的時候，還承諾了不會去推動南海的軍事化，可是我們看這幾年發展……"],["王委員定宇：他騙了歐巴馬嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：這幾年的發展，大概南海軍事化已經變成是一個地緣政治……"],["王委員定宇：所以我在講的意思就是說，事實上太平島是我們國家的領土無庸置疑！"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["王委員定宇：除了長期的聲索權以外，近幾年也沒有聽到有人在挑戰我們實質擁有、控制太平島。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：實際上那個本身不是議題。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個時候如果讓代表國家的元首去太平島，或者政治人物去太平島，你認為到那個地方對區域局勢的和緩或緊張會造成什麼效果？"],["蔡局長明彥：我在早上進入會場之前媒體朋友也有在詢問這個問題，就國安局關切的主要有二個重點，第一個就是區域政治的情勢是比較複雜化的，蔡總統到太平島去會不會被國際社會解讀是在激化當地的緊張情勢，而這樣的解讀會不會傷害我們的外交利益？這是第一個部分要評估的。第二部分……"],["王委員定宇：這一點我先停一下。所以如果我們到那裡，按照過去的慣例，菲律賓一定會提抗議，一定會！因為上次我們去看的時候，菲律賓的島大概距離500到800公尺就看到了，他們會提抗議。而美日菲現在是同盟在對抗中國的擴張主義，所以當菲律賓對臺灣抗議的時候，等於把我們國家推到一個，坦白講，不應該的位置上。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這也是我們剛剛講到外交利益一定要做妥善的評估。"],["王委員定宇：對，因為那是我們的領土，可以去，都應該去，但是如何去？應該要選擇對我們國家利益最好的時間去，這才是對的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：不是反對去或不去的問題，而是大家都是成熟的政治人物，應該去思考怎麼做對我們國家的國家利益最符合嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，第二個部分我們評估的重點是在於南海情勢的軍事化。國際社會對於南海地區的自由航行權跟自由飛越權有非常多的關注，而會提出這樣的關注，就代表很多各國的機艦在穿越南海海空域的時候，都會遭到特定國家的干擾，所以我們必須要評估在整個航程過程當中，總統的飛航安全跟維安的問題也是國安局關注的重點。"],["王委員定宇：所以昨天我問外交部，他沒辦法回答，我請教局長，據瞭解，美國、澳洲那邊有表示他們的飛機、船艦在那邊航行的時候，有遭受中共軍機的騷擾跟攔截。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["王委員定宇：我們固定運補太平島的C-130，或者是海巡的船艦有沒有被中共解放軍，不管是海警或者是海巡、海軍相關騷擾或攔截過？"],["蔡局長明彥：中共在南海地區……"],["王委員定宇：有沒有發生這個事情過？"],["蔡局長明彥：中共在南海地區只要發現到有其他國家的船艦或飛機進入到他們宣稱的海空域，大概都是採取一些逢艦必跟的原則，所以我們就必須要注意到這樣的狀況。"],["王委員定宇：我們的船艦、飛機有沒有被跟過？"],["蔡局長明彥：相關的通報，過去曾經有這樣……"],["王委員定宇：你不方便講可以不要講，如果有就說有。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有這樣的案例。"],["王委員定宇：有這樣的案例？"],["蔡局長明彥：有這樣的案例。"],["王委員定宇：就是說我們的130也好，我們的海巡艦，曾經有被跟過就對了？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，中共對這個部分，跟委員說明一下，中共在南海地區的機艦活動非常頻繁，以整個3月份到目前為止來講，飛機的部分大概每一天都有6架到20架次，在海面船艦的部分，大概平均每一天都有20艘，所以我們可以跟委員說，當地的活動範圍非常頻繁。"],["王委員定宇：那個區域很大，它還有600艘到700艘的海上民兵。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這就另外了。"],["王委員定宇：大概有六、七百艘在菲律賓的軍事海域外面。"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員報告的是海軍船艦跟海警的船艦，沒有包括海上民兵。"],["王委員定宇：對，你如果把海上民兵放上去，那個量很大。"],["蔡局長明彥：更多！"],["王委員定宇：我最後要把一個題目處理了，關於我們憲兵和特勤中心的保險，我從第九屆、第十屆推了好一段時間。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：我現在發現一個很遺憾的事情，我們原來是這樣子，當時憲兵他們的意外險找得到地方保險，我們明明要求保費金額要到上限，我們希望每一個人都不要出事，但出事的時候，我們希望理賠的金額要達到我們國家的上限嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：可是特勤中心每次保都保得很低，後來在上一屆我們提出質詢之後，你們就要調成一樣。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：現在荒謬在哪裡你知道嗎？憲兵在2023年以前，122萬投保700人，平均保費1,600可以保到欸！後來據說是保險公司回過頭說特勤中心編那麼多，有五、六千塊錢，所以如果不漲3倍價錢就不來投標，要讓它流標，有沒有這種事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：我要先替我們特勤中心的勤員謝謝委員長期觀察這個議題，在上個會期審查預算的時候，委員也再次提醒我們這個問題。"],["王委員定宇：我們都不希望弟兄姊妹出事情，但該有的保險、法令規定最高的，我們就應該要給到最高。"],["蔡局長明彥：應該的。"],["王委員定宇：可是我現在發現一個現象，你們的保費為什麼漲三倍？保額一樣喔！受保人數一樣喔！保費漲三倍，從一百多萬漲到五百多萬，都是民脂民膏耶！怎麼會這個樣子？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們預算編列也是從200萬，我記得是提升到1,000萬嘛！我們請特勤中心副指揮官說明一下跟保險公司……"],["王委員定宇：我跟你講，這應該要憲調組、要問憲兵。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，他們這邊也有相關的……"],["王委員定宇：憲兵，你們為什麼漲價漲三倍？一樣的700人、一樣的理賠金額，你們為什麼漲了三倍保費？"],["鄭指揮官禎祥：向委員報告，因為我們在112年以前，我們的保費大概都一百多萬就可以承保，但是經過這幾年疫情的影響，各保險公司出險……"],["王委員定宇：不要老是把什麼事情隨便栽贓給疫情，2023年到2024年也不過隔了一年而已，我給你漲10%、20%、30%好不好？你漲三倍耶！"],["鄭指揮官禎祥：向委員報告，我們去年11月……"],["王委員定宇：有沒有這個情形，這些保險公司跟你說，特勤中心一個人均編了這麼高，你以前才1,600太便宜了，要漲價，否則我不標！有沒有這個情形？"],["鄭指揮官禎祥：報告委員，絕對沒有。"],["王委員定宇：那樣就是聯合壟斷行為喔！"],["鄭指揮官禎祥：絕對沒有，因為……"],["王委員定宇：因為時間的關係，第一個，保到最高的上限，這是對的，但是也不能因為要保到最高上限，平均每人保費從1,600塊暴增到5,300塊，然後投保金額從122萬漲到560萬。本來是希望我們的特勤中心把保障一樣拉到最高，結果沒想到現在是把憲兵的調到跟特勤中心一樣貴，然後大家來標，這是不對的。如果保險公司為了特勤跟憲兵這些弟兄姊妹的安全，這樣漲三倍，而且如果不漲他們就不來投標，這是聯合壟斷行為，行政院該處理啊！怎麼可以這樣子！","你剛剛講COVID-19的關係，2023年到2024年也不過跨了一個年而已，漲三倍！我坦白講，不能接受啦！局長跟憲兵這邊把這件事情查清楚，錢的金額雖然不大，但是不可以這樣子亂漲，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，法律的問題我們來確認，謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：我們目前收到臨時提案1案，待會等到賴士葆委員質詢完畢以後，休息5分鐘，休息過後處理臨時提案。","接下來我們請下一位的林楚茵委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","林楚茵","洪申翰","賴士葆","陳冠廷","邱志偉","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃仁","黃捷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-21"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"150221","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150221","tool":"pyannote","id":"150221-pyannote"},"job_id":"oocG7SrGRKslQ7F7","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 801.153, \"end\": 801.313, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 801.313, \"end\": 802.154, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 802.154, \"end\": 802.374, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 802.374, \"end\": 802.554, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 802.554, \"end\": 802.674, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 802.674, \"end\": 802.774, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 802.774, \"end\": 803.374, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 803.374, \"end\": 804.155, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"亂\"}, {\"word\": \"漲\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 804.155, \"end\": 804.255, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 804.255, \"end\": 804.635, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 804.635, \"end\": 804.755, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 804.755, \"end\": 804.875, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 804.875, \"end\": 804.975, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 804.975, \"end\": 805.035, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 805.035, \"end\": 805.156, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 805.156, \"end\": 805.296, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 805.296, \"end\": 805.356, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 805.356, \"end\": 805.476, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 805.476, \"end\": 805.576, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"醒\", \"start\": 805.576, \"end\": 805.596, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,389 --> 00:00:25,284\n謝謝主席麻煩局長好請蔡局長好謝謝主席王委員早局長早本來我們今天早上還有蠻多問題要問但是我很遺憾馬文君委員還在用老一套的烏龍的烏賊戰術要來轉移他自己被高檢署偵辦泄密叛國\n\n2\n00:00:27,110 --> 00:00:52,897\n那只能說他是前驢技窮讓你捲入這個事情我覺得浪費國家資源不過我們還是要說清楚不過你一樣他不在好我希望轉播可以弄清楚一點第一個2019年的潛艦機密會議當時也許馬文俊委員忙進忙出沒有注意上課沒有聽當時的召集人黃曙光上將他特別報告\n\n3\n00:00:54,296 --> 00:00:57,457\n當時採訪的記者好幾位現在還在會場內我們就在外面我一開頭第一句話就是\n\n4\n00:01:15,798 --> 00:01:41,612\n什麼都不能講但是X維度有授權可以說所以我們就說採取X維度全球X維度都沒有在列機密的那又怕這樣還不夠我還怕字太小我還放大可惜當事人不在這裡有一張海軍的公文海艙計畫也就是潛艦國造計畫裡面的安全管制計畫書載明X維度從頭到尾都沒有列為機密公項\n\n5\n00:01:45,237 --> 00:02:08,599\n現在因為泄密韓國被高檢署偵辦二哥大的使用剛才在巡大過程各位媒體記者在看直播應該聽得到前後矛盾啊那證明他就是有用嘛他只是不曉得人家叫二哥大嘛當時怎麼沒有人制止當時海軍的聯絡人跑到他旁邊就現在林柱英委員坐的位置去跟他講不能用怎麼會沒有\n\n6\n00:02:10,829 --> 00:02:35,246\n為了模糊自己被泄密偵辦有沒有罪我都不講基於同事和諧我很少來這邊講這個事情就讓高檢署去偵辦有罪就有罪沒罪就沒罪被告自證清白就好了可是哪一個老一套已經澄清過而且完全烏龍的烏賊手段想要轉移在偵辦當中身為泄密叛國的被告\n\n7\n00:02:37,196 --> 00:02:39,177\n不好意思不要扯到我們其他人了謝謝\n\n8\n00:03:00,529 --> 00:03:27,891\n被偵辦中的人自己就去對司法交代就好了所以有關潛艦X尾舵是否屬於機密根據海軍海商計畫安全管制計畫書根據當時機密報告的黃曙光的報告內容以及根據當時我們跟媒體講這個是唯一授權可以講因為他無涉機敏他不是機密工項如果不在言論免責保護傘下的話\n\n9\n00:03:29,738 --> 00:03:45,173\n那就說一次告一次去外面講不要在那邊模糊焦點國家利益國家安全何其重大我們在這邊要論的是國家政治而不是個人適不適合坐在那個位置上所以回到我們正辦要談論的事情\n\n10\n00:03:46,817 --> 00:04:06,188\n局長近期的南海局勢因為最新的局勢發展是4月11號拜登要召集美日非三國元首高峰會議這個高峰會議的主題是什麼你沒有講過嗎對他們這一次大概會針對南海的狀況來進行意見的交換因為特別是在人愛交的他們認為南海的問題是什麼\n\n11\n00:04:08,289 --> 00:04:22,474\n對,他們認為中國在當地的一些挑釁的行徑已經破壞到區域的核穩所以其實這個每日非的4月11號的三國的元首高峰會議它裡面其實就一個主題就是中國在南海\n\n12\n00:04:23,467 --> 00:04:52,225\n惹是生非擴張主義灰色地帶手段導致區域緊張局勢升高馬那我們管局有沒有掌握到美國有提出美非共同防禦條約有他們有在討論這個問題那美國也有重申他們的立場那有必要的話他們會啟動美非共同防禦機制他是不是有提到說如果他的船艦菲律賓的船菲律賓的飛機菲律賓的領土遭受攻擊的話美國會出手\n\n13\n00:04:53,165 --> 00:05:17,557\n對這應該是他們接下來峰會也會釐清的一個重點對因為美國如果出手根據美日安保條約每日要同盟同進同出嘛所以當然這在台灣周邊我們太平島也在那裡是我們應該要關切的局勢發展那美日飛又影響到台灣的安全非常重要北邊宮古海峽以上是日本的西南諸島與那國島離我們非常近現在有F35的機場\n\n14\n00:05:19,358 --> 00:05:41,380\n南邊呂宋島菲律賓距離高雄400公里最近一個小島離台灣也差不多100多公里那美國在那邊有大概呂宋島有4個基地在那邊所以美日菲跟台灣的安全議題很有關聯所以在這個時候南海的局勢看起來是中國成為推動升溫的\n\n15\n00:05:42,619 --> 00:05:44,120\n所以我在講的意思就是說\n\n16\n00:06:12,742 --> 00:06:32,599\n事實上,太平島是我們國家的領土,不用質疑嘛,所以那除了長期的聲索權以外,近幾年也沒有聽到有人在挑戰我們實質、擁有、控制太平島,事實上那個本身不是議題,所以這個時候如果讓代表國家的元首去太平島,或者政治人物去太平島,你認為\n\n17\n00:06:36,848 --> 00:07:02,903\n對區域局勢的和緩或緊張會造成什麼效果?對,我想我在早上進入會場之前媒體朋友也有在詢問這個問題那就國安局的關切的主要有兩個重點第一個就是區域政治的情勢是比較複雜化的蔡總統到太平島去會不會被國際社會解讀是在激化當地的緊張情勢而這樣的解讀會不會傷害我們的外交利益這是第一個部分要評估的你這一點我先停一下所以如果我們到那裡\n\n18\n00:07:04,158 --> 00:07:29,658\n按照過去的慣例菲律賓一定會提抗議一定會因為上次我們去看的時候菲律賓的島在距離500到800公尺就看到了他會提抗議而美日菲現在是同盟在對抗中國的擴張主義所以當菲律賓對台灣抗議的時候等於把我們國家推到一個我坦白講不應該的位置上對這也是我們剛剛講到外交利益一定要做妥善的評估對因為那裡是我們的領土可以去\n\n19\n00:07:30,725 --> 00:07:33,326\n對那第二個部分我們評估的重點是在於南海情勢的軍事化\n\n20\n00:07:49,674 --> 00:08:13,468\n所以國際社會對於南海地區的自由航行權跟自由飛越權有非常多的關注而會提出這樣的關注就代表很多各國的基建在穿越南海的海空域的時候都會遭到特定國家的干擾所以我們必須要評估在整個航程過程當中總統的飛航安全跟維安的問題也是國安局關注的重點這個昨天我問外交部他沒辦法回答我請教局長據了解\n\n21\n00:08:16,169 --> 00:08:33,515\n美國澳洲那邊有表現有表示說他們的航飛機船艦在那邊航行的時候有遭受中共軍機騷擾跟攔截那我們固定運補太平島的C13棟或者是海巡的這個船艦有沒有\n\n22\n00:08:34,715 --> 00:08:42,820\n對中共在南海地區他們只要發現到有其他國家的船艦或飛機進入到他們的宣稱的海空域大概都是採取一些逢艦必跟的原則所以我們的船艦飛機有沒有被跟過\n\n23\n00:08:58,850 --> 00:09:25,829\n相關的通報過去曾經有這樣的案例有這樣的案例我們的腰山洞也好我們的海巡艦曾經有被跟過就對了對中共對這部分他們現在因為跟委員說明一下中共在這個南海地區他的基建的活動非常的頻繁以三月份來講整個三月份到目前為止來講平均飛機的部分\n\n24\n00:09:26,209 --> 00:09:26,970\n當地的那個他還有600艘到700艘的海上民兵啊\n\n25\n00:09:45,041 --> 00:10:10,966\n我剛跟委員報告是海軍船艦跟海警的船艦沒有包括海上民運那個量很大我最後把題目要處理我們特勤人員我們憲兵跟特勤中心這個保險我從第9屆第10屆推了好一段時間我現在發現一個很遺憾的事情我們原來是這樣子憲兵當時他們的意外險找得到地方保險\n\n26\n00:10:12,298 --> 00:10:30,170\n然後我們明明要求保費的金額要到上限我們希望每一個人都不要出事但出事的時候我們希望理賠的金額要達到我們國家的上限嘛可是特勤中心每次保都保得很低後來在上一屆我們提出質詢之後呢你們就要調成一樣那現在荒謬在哪裡你知道嗎憲兵齁憲兵在2023年以前122萬一樣700人平均保費1600\n\n27\n00:10:41,499 --> 00:10:42,240\n我們弟兄姊妹都不希望出錯\n\n28\n00:11:10,243 --> 00:11:34,787\n對對但該有的保險法令規定最高我們就應該給他最高嘛應該的可是我現在發現一個現象就是你們保費為什麼漲三倍保額一樣喔售保人數一樣喔保費漲三倍從一百多萬漲到五百多萬民脂民膏欸怎麼會這樣子我們預算編列也是從兩百萬我記得提升到一千萬嘛我們請特勤中心負責為官說明一下跟保險公司公布這要問縣調署要問縣兵縣兵你們為什麼漲價漲三倍一樣的七百人一樣的理賠金額\n\n29\n00:11:39,895 --> 00:12:07,524\n你們為什麼漲了三倍保費報委員向委員報告一下因為我們在112年以前我們的保費大概都100多萬就可以承保但是經過這幾年疫情的影響各保險公司出行就不要隨便老是什麼事情都栽贓給疫情2023年到2024年也不過隔了一年而已我跟你講10%20%30%好不好你漲三倍向委員報告我們在去年11月有沒有這個情形這些保險公司跟你說\n\n30\n00:12:08,567 --> 00:12:20,801\n特勤中心一個人均編了這麼高特勤中心人均編這麼高那你以前才一千六太便宜了你要漲價否則我不給你標有沒有這個情形包委員絕對沒有那個就聯合壟斷行為絕對沒有因為我談講因為實踐關係第一個把到最高上限這是對的\n\n31\n00:12:27,369 --> 00:12:49,087\n但是也不因為我要保到最高上限保費從1600塊爆增到5300塊平均每人然後投保金額從122萬漲到560萬本來是希望我們的特勤中心保障一樣拉到最高結果沒想到現在是把憲兵的調到跟特勤中心一樣貴然後大家來飆\n\n32\n00:12:50,425 --> 00:13:12,436\n這是不對的如果保險公司為了我們特勤跟憲兵我們這些弟兄姊妹的安全這樣漲3倍而且是如果不漲他們不來投標這是聯合壟斷行為行政院該處理啊怎麼可以這樣子那你剛才講的COVID-19的關係2023年到2024年也不過就這樣一個跨年而已漲3倍\n\n33\n00:13:14,309 --> 00:13:25,596\n我坦白講不能接受啦好不好局長局長跟憲民這邊把這事情查清楚錢金額雖然不大但是不可以這樣子亂漲好不好有沒有法律問題我們來確認謝謝委員提醒謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n389\t25284\t謝謝主席麻煩局長好請蔡局長好謝謝主席王委員早局長早本來我們今天早上還有蠻多問題要問但是我很遺憾馬文君委員還在用老一套的烏龍的烏賊戰術要來轉移他自己被高檢署偵辦泄密叛國\n27110\t52897\t那只能說他是前驢技窮讓你捲入這個事情我覺得浪費國家資源不過我們還是要說清楚不過你一樣他不在好我希望轉播可以弄清楚一點第一個2019年的潛艦機密會議當時也許馬文俊委員忙進忙出沒有注意上課沒有聽當時的召集人黃曙光上將他特別報告\n54296\t57457\t當時採訪的記者好幾位現在還在會場內我們就在外面我一開頭第一句話就是\n75798\t101612\t什麼都不能講但是X維度有授權可以說所以我們就說採取X維度全球X維度都沒有在列機密的那又怕這樣還不夠我還怕字太小我還放大可惜當事人不在這裡有一張海軍的公文海艙計畫也就是潛艦國造計畫裡面的安全管制計畫書載明X維度從頭到尾都沒有列為機密公項\n105237\t128599\t現在因為泄密韓國被高檢署偵辦二哥大的使用剛才在巡大過程各位媒體記者在看直播應該聽得到前後矛盾啊那證明他就是有用嘛他只是不曉得人家叫二哥大嘛當時怎麼沒有人制止當時海軍的聯絡人跑到他旁邊就現在林柱英委員坐的位置去跟他講不能用怎麼會沒有\n130829\t155246\t為了模糊自己被泄密偵辦有沒有罪我都不講基於同事和諧我很少來這邊講這個事情就讓高檢署去偵辦有罪就有罪沒罪就沒罪被告自證清白就好了可是哪一個老一套已經澄清過而且完全烏龍的烏賊手段想要轉移在偵辦當中身為泄密叛國的被告\n157196\t159177\t不好意思不要扯到我們其他人了謝謝\n180529\t207891\t被偵辦中的人自己就去對司法交代就好了所以有關潛艦X尾舵是否屬於機密根據海軍海商計畫安全管制計畫書根據當時機密報告的黃曙光的報告內容以及根據當時我們跟媒體講這個是唯一授權可以講因為他無涉機敏他不是機密工項如果不在言論免責保護傘下的話\n209738\t225173\t那就說一次告一次去外面講不要在那邊模糊焦點國家利益國家安全何其重大我們在這邊要論的是國家政治而不是個人適不適合坐在那個位置上所以回到我們正辦要談論的事情\n226817\t246188\t局長近期的南海局勢因為最新的局勢發展是4月11號拜登要召集美日非三國元首高峰會議這個高峰會議的主題是什麼你沒有講過嗎對他們這一次大概會針對南海的狀況來進行意見的交換因為特別是在人愛交的他們認為南海的問題是什麼\n248289\t262474\t對,他們認為中國在當地的一些挑釁的行徑已經破壞到區域的核穩所以其實這個每日非的4月11號的三國的元首高峰會議它裡面其實就一個主題就是中國在南海\n263467\t292225\t惹是生非擴張主義灰色地帶手段導致區域緊張局勢升高馬那我們管局有沒有掌握到美國有提出美非共同防禦條約有他們有在討論這個問題那美國也有重申他們的立場那有必要的話他們會啟動美非共同防禦機制他是不是有提到說如果他的船艦菲律賓的船菲律賓的飛機菲律賓的領土遭受攻擊的話美國會出手\n293165\t317557\t對這應該是他們接下來峰會也會釐清的一個重點對因為美國如果出手根據美日安保條約每日要同盟同進同出嘛所以當然這在台灣周邊我們太平島也在那裡是我們應該要關切的局勢發展那美日飛又影響到台灣的安全非常重要北邊宮古海峽以上是日本的西南諸島與那國島離我們非常近現在有F35的機場\n319358\t341380\t南邊呂宋島菲律賓距離高雄400公里最近一個小島離台灣也差不多100多公里那美國在那邊有大概呂宋島有4個基地在那邊所以美日菲跟台灣的安全議題很有關聯所以在這個時候南海的局勢看起來是中國成為推動升溫的\n342619\t344120\t所以我在講的意思就是說\n372742\t392599\t事實上,太平島是我們國家的領土,不用質疑嘛,所以那除了長期的聲索權以外,近幾年也沒有聽到有人在挑戰我們實質、擁有、控制太平島,事實上那個本身不是議題,所以這個時候如果讓代表國家的元首去太平島,或者政治人物去太平島,你認為\n396848\t422903\t對區域局勢的和緩或緊張會造成什麼效果?對,我想我在早上進入會場之前媒體朋友也有在詢問這個問題那就國安局的關切的主要有兩個重點第一個就是區域政治的情勢是比較複雜化的蔡總統到太平島去會不會被國際社會解讀是在激化當地的緊張情勢而這樣的解讀會不會傷害我們的外交利益這是第一個部分要評估的你這一點我先停一下所以如果我們到那裡\n424158\t449658\t按照過去的慣例菲律賓一定會提抗議一定會因為上次我們去看的時候菲律賓的島在距離500到800公尺就看到了他會提抗議而美日菲現在是同盟在對抗中國的擴張主義所以當菲律賓對台灣抗議的時候等於把我們國家推到一個我坦白講不應該的位置上對這也是我們剛剛講到外交利益一定要做妥善的評估對因為那裡是我們的領土可以去\n450725\t453326\t對那第二個部分我們評估的重點是在於南海情勢的軍事化\n469674\t493468\t所以國際社會對於南海地區的自由航行權跟自由飛越權有非常多的關注而會提出這樣的關注就代表很多各國的基建在穿越南海的海空域的時候都會遭到特定國家的干擾所以我們必須要評估在整個航程過程當中總統的飛航安全跟維安的問題也是國安局關注的重點這個昨天我問外交部他沒辦法回答我請教局長據了解\n496169\t513515\t美國澳洲那邊有表現有表示說他們的航飛機船艦在那邊航行的時候有遭受中共軍機騷擾跟攔截那我們固定運補太平島的C13棟或者是海巡的這個船艦有沒有\n514715\t522820\t對中共在南海地區他們只要發現到有其他國家的船艦或飛機進入到他們的宣稱的海空域大概都是採取一些逢艦必跟的原則所以我們的船艦飛機有沒有被跟過\n538850\t565829\t相關的通報過去曾經有這樣的案例有這樣的案例我們的腰山洞也好我們的海巡艦曾經有被跟過就對了對中共對這部分他們現在因為跟委員說明一下中共在這個南海地區他的基建的活動非常的頻繁以三月份來講整個三月份到目前為止來講平均飛機的部分\n566209\t566970\t當地的那個他還有600艘到700艘的海上民兵啊\n585041\t610966\t我剛跟委員報告是海軍船艦跟海警的船艦沒有包括海上民運那個量很大我最後把題目要處理我們特勤人員我們憲兵跟特勤中心這個保險我從第9屆第10屆推了好一段時間我現在發現一個很遺憾的事情我們原來是這樣子憲兵當時他們的意外險找得到地方保險\n612298\t630170\t然後我們明明要求保費的金額要到上限我們希望每一個人都不要出事但出事的時候我們希望理賠的金額要達到我們國家的上限嘛可是特勤中心每次保都保得很低後來在上一屆我們提出質詢之後呢你們就要調成一樣那現在荒謬在哪裡你知道嗎憲兵齁憲兵在2023年以前122萬一樣700人平均保費1600\n641499\t642240\t我們弟兄姊妹都不希望出錯\n670243\t694787\t對對但該有的保險法令規定最高我們就應該給他最高嘛應該的可是我現在發現一個現象就是你們保費為什麼漲三倍保額一樣喔售保人數一樣喔保費漲三倍從一百多萬漲到五百多萬民脂民膏欸怎麼會這樣子我們預算編列也是從兩百萬我記得提升到一千萬嘛我們請特勤中心負責為官說明一下跟保險公司公布這要問縣調署要問縣兵縣兵你們為什麼漲價漲三倍一樣的七百人一樣的理賠金額\n699895\t727524\t你們為什麼漲了三倍保費報委員向委員報告一下因為我們在112年以前我們的保費大概都100多萬就可以承保但是經過這幾年疫情的影響各保險公司出行就不要隨便老是什麼事情都栽贓給疫情2023年到2024年也不過隔了一年而已我跟你講10%20%30%好不好你漲三倍向委員報告我們在去年11月有沒有這個情形這些保險公司跟你說\n728567\t740801\t特勤中心一個人均編了這麼高特勤中心人均編這麼高那你以前才一千六太便宜了你要漲價否則我不給你標有沒有這個情形包委員絕對沒有那個就聯合壟斷行為絕對沒有因為我談講因為實踐關係第一個把到最高上限這是對的\n747369\t769087\t但是也不因為我要保到最高上限保費從1600塊爆增到5300塊平均每人然後投保金額從122萬漲到560萬本來是希望我們的特勤中心保障一樣拉到最高結果沒想到現在是把憲兵的調到跟特勤中心一樣貴然後大家來飆\n770425\t792436\t這是不對的如果保險公司為了我們特勤跟憲兵我們這些弟兄姊妹的安全這樣漲3倍而且是如果不漲他們不來投標這是聯合壟斷行為行政院該處理啊怎麼可以這樣子那你剛才講的COVID-19的關係2023年到2024年也不過就這樣一個跨年而已漲3倍\n794309\t805596\t我坦白講不能接受啦好不好局長局長跟憲民這邊把這事情查清楚錢金額雖然不大但是不可以這樣子亂漲好不好有沒有法律問題我們來確認謝謝委員提醒謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩局長好請蔡局長好謝謝主席王委員早局長早本來我們今天早上還有蠻多問題要問但是我很遺憾馬文君委員還在用老一套的烏龍的烏賊戰術要來轉移他自己被高檢署偵辦泄密叛國\n那只能說他是前驢技窮讓你捲入這個事情我覺得浪費國家資源不過我們還是要說清楚不過你一樣他不在好我希望轉播可以弄清楚一點第一個2019年的潛艦機密會議當時也許馬文俊委員忙進忙出沒有注意上課沒有聽當時的召集人黃曙光上將他特別報告\n當時採訪的記者好幾位現在還在會場內我們就在外面我一開頭第一句話就是\n什麼都不能講但是X維度有授權可以說所以我們就說採取X維度全球X維度都沒有在列機密的那又怕這樣還不夠我還怕字太小我還放大可惜當事人不在這裡有一張海軍的公文海艙計畫也就是潛艦國造計畫裡面的安全管制計畫書載明X維度從頭到尾都沒有列為機密公項\n現在因為泄密韓國被高檢署偵辦二哥大的使用剛才在巡大過程各位媒體記者在看直播應該聽得到前後矛盾啊那證明他就是有用嘛他只是不曉得人家叫二哥大嘛當時怎麼沒有人制止當時海軍的聯絡人跑到他旁邊就現在林柱英委員坐的位置去跟他講不能用怎麼會沒有\n為了模糊自己被泄密偵辦有沒有罪我都不講基於同事和諧我很少來這邊講這個事情就讓高檢署去偵辦有罪就有罪沒罪就沒罪被告自證清白就好了可是哪一個老一套已經澄清過而且完全烏龍的烏賊手段想要轉移在偵辦當中身為泄密叛國的被告\n不好意思不要扯到我們其他人了謝謝\n被偵辦中的人自己就去對司法交代就好了所以有關潛艦X尾舵是否屬於機密根據海軍海商計畫安全管制計畫書根據當時機密報告的黃曙光的報告內容以及根據當時我們跟媒體講這個是唯一授權可以講因為他無涉機敏他不是機密工項如果不在言論免責保護傘下的話\n那就說一次告一次去外面講不要在那邊模糊焦點國家利益國家安全何其重大我們在這邊要論的是國家政治而不是個人適不適合坐在那個位置上所以回到我們正辦要談論的事情\n局長近期的南海局勢因為最新的局勢發展是4月11號拜登要召集美日非三國元首高峰會議這個高峰會議的主題是什麼你沒有講過嗎對他們這一次大概會針對南海的狀況來進行意見的交換因為特別是在人愛交的他們認為南海的問題是什麼\n對,他們認為中國在當地的一些挑釁的行徑已經破壞到區域的核穩所以其實這個每日非的4月11號的三國的元首高峰會議它裡面其實就一個主題就是中國在南海\n惹是生非擴張主義灰色地帶手段導致區域緊張局勢升高馬那我們管局有沒有掌握到美國有提出美非共同防禦條約有他們有在討論這個問題那美國也有重申他們的立場那有必要的話他們會啟動美非共同防禦機制他是不是有提到說如果他的船艦菲律賓的船菲律賓的飛機菲律賓的領土遭受攻擊的話美國會出手\n對這應該是他們接下來峰會也會釐清的一個重點對因為美國如果出手根據美日安保條約每日要同盟同進同出嘛所以當然這在台灣周邊我們太平島也在那裡是我們應該要關切的局勢發展那美日飛又影響到台灣的安全非常重要北邊宮古海峽以上是日本的西南諸島與那國島離我們非常近現在有F35的機場\n南邊呂宋島菲律賓距離高雄400公里最近一個小島離台灣也差不多100多公里那美國在那邊有大概呂宋島有4個基地在那邊所以美日菲跟台灣的安全議題很有關聯所以在這個時候南海的局勢看起來是中國成為推動升溫的\n所以我在講的意思就是說\n事實上,太平島是我們國家的領土,不用質疑嘛,所以那除了長期的聲索權以外,近幾年也沒有聽到有人在挑戰我們實質、擁有、控制太平島,事實上那個本身不是議題,所以這個時候如果讓代表國家的元首去太平島,或者政治人物去太平島,你認為\n對區域局勢的和緩或緊張會造成什麼效果?對,我想我在早上進入會場之前媒體朋友也有在詢問這個問題那就國安局的關切的主要有兩個重點第一個就是區域政治的情勢是比較複雜化的蔡總統到太平島去會不會被國際社會解讀是在激化當地的緊張情勢而這樣的解讀會不會傷害我們的外交利益這是第一個部分要評估的你這一點我先停一下所以如果我們到那裡\n按照過去的慣例菲律賓一定會提抗議一定會因為上次我們去看的時候菲律賓的島在距離500到800公尺就看到了他會提抗議而美日菲現在是同盟在對抗中國的擴張主義所以當菲律賓對台灣抗議的時候等於把我們國家推到一個我坦白講不應該的位置上對這也是我們剛剛講到外交利益一定要做妥善的評估對因為那裡是我們的領土可以去\n對那第二個部分我們評估的重點是在於南海情勢的軍事化\n所以國際社會對於南海地區的自由航行權跟自由飛越權有非常多的關注而會提出這樣的關注就代表很多各國的基建在穿越南海的海空域的時候都會遭到特定國家的干擾所以我們必須要評估在整個航程過程當中總統的飛航安全跟維安的問題也是國安局關注的重點這個昨天我問外交部他沒辦法回答我請教局長據了解\n美國澳洲那邊有表現有表示說他們的航飛機船艦在那邊航行的時候有遭受中共軍機騷擾跟攔截那我們固定運補太平島的C13棟或者是海巡的這個船艦有沒有\n對中共在南海地區他們只要發現到有其他國家的船艦或飛機進入到他們的宣稱的海空域大概都是採取一些逢艦必跟的原則所以我們的船艦飛機有沒有被跟過\n相關的通報過去曾經有這樣的案例有這樣的案例我們的腰山洞也好我們的海巡艦曾經有被跟過就對了對中共對這部分他們現在因為跟委員說明一下中共在這個南海地區他的基建的活動非常的頻繁以三月份來講整個三月份到目前為止來講平均飛機的部分\n當地的那個他還有600艘到700艘的海上民兵啊\n我剛跟委員報告是海軍船艦跟海警的船艦沒有包括海上民運那個量很大我最後把題目要處理我們特勤人員我們憲兵跟特勤中心這個保險我從第9屆第10屆推了好一段時間我現在發現一個很遺憾的事情我們原來是這樣子憲兵當時他們的意外險找得到地方保險\n然後我們明明要求保費的金額要到上限我們希望每一個人都不要出事但出事的時候我們希望理賠的金額要達到我們國家的上限嘛可是特勤中心每次保都保得很低後來在上一屆我們提出質詢之後呢你們就要調成一樣那現在荒謬在哪裡你知道嗎憲兵齁憲兵在2023年以前122萬一樣700人平均保費1600\n我們弟兄姊妹都不希望出錯\n對對但該有的保險法令規定最高我們就應該給他最高嘛應該的可是我現在發現一個現象就是你們保費為什麼漲三倍保額一樣喔售保人數一樣喔保費漲三倍從一百多萬漲到五百多萬民脂民膏欸怎麼會這樣子我們預算編列也是從兩百萬我記得提升到一千萬嘛我們請特勤中心負責為官說明一下跟保險公司公布這要問縣調署要問縣兵縣兵你們為什麼漲價漲三倍一樣的七百人一樣的理賠金額\n你們為什麼漲了三倍保費報委員向委員報告一下因為我們在112年以前我們的保費大概都100多萬就可以承保但是經過這幾年疫情的影響各保險公司出行就不要隨便老是什麼事情都栽贓給疫情2023年到2024年也不過隔了一年而已我跟你講10%20%30%好不好你漲三倍向委員報告我們在去年11月有沒有這個情形這些保險公司跟你說\n特勤中心一個人均編了這麼高特勤中心人均編這麼高那你以前才一千六太便宜了你要漲價否則我不給你標有沒有這個情形包委員絕對沒有那個就聯合壟斷行為絕對沒有因為我談講因為實踐關係第一個把到最高上限這是對的\n但是也不因為我要保到最高上限保費從1600塊爆增到5300塊平均每人然後投保金額從122萬漲到560萬本來是希望我們的特勤中心保障一樣拉到最高結果沒想到現在是把憲兵的調到跟特勤中心一樣貴然後大家來飆\n這是不對的如果保險公司為了我們特勤跟憲兵我們這些弟兄姊妹的安全這樣漲3倍而且是如果不漲他們不來投標這是聯合壟斷行為行政院該處理啊怎麼可以這樣子那你剛才講的COVID-19的關係2023年到2024年也不過就這樣一個跨年而已漲3倍\n我坦白講不能接受啦好不好局長局長跟憲民這邊把這事情查清楚錢金額雖然不大但是不可以這樣子亂漲好不好有沒有法律問題我們來確認謝謝委員提醒謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.389 --> 00:25.284\n謝謝主席麻煩局長好請蔡局長好謝謝主席王委員早局長早本來我們今天早上還有蠻多問題要問但是我很遺憾馬文君委員還在用老一套的烏龍的烏賊戰術要來轉移他自己被高檢署偵辦泄密叛國\n\n00:27.110 --> 00:52.897\n那只能說他是前驢技窮讓你捲入這個事情我覺得浪費國家資源不過我們還是要說清楚不過你一樣他不在好我希望轉播可以弄清楚一點第一個2019年的潛艦機密會議當時也許馬文俊委員忙進忙出沒有注意上課沒有聽當時的召集人黃曙光上將他特別報告\n\n00:54.296 --> 00:57.457\n當時採訪的記者好幾位現在還在會場內我們就在外面我一開頭第一句話就是\n\n01:15.798 --> 01:41.612\n什麼都不能講但是X維度有授權可以說所以我們就說採取X維度全球X維度都沒有在列機密的那又怕這樣還不夠我還怕字太小我還放大可惜當事人不在這裡有一張海軍的公文海艙計畫也就是潛艦國造計畫裡面的安全管制計畫書載明X維度從頭到尾都沒有列為機密公項\n\n01:45.237 --> 02:08.599\n現在因為泄密韓國被高檢署偵辦二哥大的使用剛才在巡大過程各位媒體記者在看直播應該聽得到前後矛盾啊那證明他就是有用嘛他只是不曉得人家叫二哥大嘛當時怎麼沒有人制止當時海軍的聯絡人跑到他旁邊就現在林柱英委員坐的位置去跟他講不能用怎麼會沒有\n\n02:10.829 --> 02:35.246\n為了模糊自己被泄密偵辦有沒有罪我都不講基於同事和諧我很少來這邊講這個事情就讓高檢署去偵辦有罪就有罪沒罪就沒罪被告自證清白就好了可是哪一個老一套已經澄清過而且完全烏龍的烏賊手段想要轉移在偵辦當中身為泄密叛國的被告\n\n02:37.196 --> 02:39.177\n不好意思不要扯到我們其他人了謝謝\n\n03:00.529 --> 03:27.891\n被偵辦中的人自己就去對司法交代就好了所以有關潛艦X尾舵是否屬於機密根據海軍海商計畫安全管制計畫書根據當時機密報告的黃曙光的報告內容以及根據當時我們跟媒體講這個是唯一授權可以講因為他無涉機敏他不是機密工項如果不在言論免責保護傘下的話\n\n03:29.738 --> 03:45.173\n那就說一次告一次去外面講不要在那邊模糊焦點國家利益國家安全何其重大我們在這邊要論的是國家政治而不是個人適不適合坐在那個位置上所以回到我們正辦要談論的事情\n\n03:46.817 --> 04:06.188\n局長近期的南海局勢因為最新的局勢發展是4月11號拜登要召集美日非三國元首高峰會議這個高峰會議的主題是什麼你沒有講過嗎對他們這一次大概會針對南海的狀況來進行意見的交換因為特別是在人愛交的他們認為南海的問題是什麼\n\n04:08.289 --> 04:22.474\n對,他們認為中國在當地的一些挑釁的行徑已經破壞到區域的核穩所以其實這個每日非的4月11號的三國的元首高峰會議它裡面其實就一個主題就是中國在南海\n\n04:23.467 --> 04:52.225\n惹是生非擴張主義灰色地帶手段導致區域緊張局勢升高馬那我們管局有沒有掌握到美國有提出美非共同防禦條約有他們有在討論這個問題那美國也有重申他們的立場那有必要的話他們會啟動美非共同防禦機制他是不是有提到說如果他的船艦菲律賓的船菲律賓的飛機菲律賓的領土遭受攻擊的話美國會出手\n\n04:53.165 --> 05:17.557\n對這應該是他們接下來峰會也會釐清的一個重點對因為美國如果出手根據美日安保條約每日要同盟同進同出嘛所以當然這在台灣周邊我們太平島也在那裡是我們應該要關切的局勢發展那美日飛又影響到台灣的安全非常重要北邊宮古海峽以上是日本的西南諸島與那國島離我們非常近現在有F35的機場\n\n05:19.358 --> 05:41.380\n南邊呂宋島菲律賓距離高雄400公里最近一個小島離台灣也差不多100多公里那美國在那邊有大概呂宋島有4個基地在那邊所以美日菲跟台灣的安全議題很有關聯所以在這個時候南海的局勢看起來是中國成為推動升溫的\n\n05:42.619 --> 05:44.120\n所以我在講的意思就是說\n\n06:12.742 --> 06:32.599\n事實上,太平島是我們國家的領土,不用質疑嘛,所以那除了長期的聲索權以外,近幾年也沒有聽到有人在挑戰我們實質、擁有、控制太平島,事實上那個本身不是議題,所以這個時候如果讓代表國家的元首去太平島,或者政治人物去太平島,你認為\n\n06:36.848 --> 07:02.903\n對區域局勢的和緩或緊張會造成什麼效果?對,我想我在早上進入會場之前媒體朋友也有在詢問這個問題那就國安局的關切的主要有兩個重點第一個就是區域政治的情勢是比較複雜化的蔡總統到太平島去會不會被國際社會解讀是在激化當地的緊張情勢而這樣的解讀會不會傷害我們的外交利益這是第一個部分要評估的你這一點我先停一下所以如果我們到那裡\n\n07:04.158 --> 07:29.658\n按照過去的慣例菲律賓一定會提抗議一定會因為上次我們去看的時候菲律賓的島在距離500到800公尺就看到了他會提抗議而美日菲現在是同盟在對抗中國的擴張主義所以當菲律賓對台灣抗議的時候等於把我們國家推到一個我坦白講不應該的位置上對這也是我們剛剛講到外交利益一定要做妥善的評估對因為那裡是我們的領土可以去\n\n07:30.725 --> 07:33.326\n對那第二個部分我們評估的重點是在於南海情勢的軍事化\n\n07:49.674 --> 08:13.468\n所以國際社會對於南海地區的自由航行權跟自由飛越權有非常多的關注而會提出這樣的關注就代表很多各國的基建在穿越南海的海空域的時候都會遭到特定國家的干擾所以我們必須要評估在整個航程過程當中總統的飛航安全跟維安的問題也是國安局關注的重點這個昨天我問外交部他沒辦法回答我請教局長據了解\n\n08:16.169 --> 08:33.515\n美國澳洲那邊有表現有表示說他們的航飛機船艦在那邊航行的時候有遭受中共軍機騷擾跟攔截那我們固定運補太平島的C13棟或者是海巡的這個船艦有沒有\n\n08:34.715 --> 08:42.820\n對中共在南海地區他們只要發現到有其他國家的船艦或飛機進入到他們的宣稱的海空域大概都是採取一些逢艦必跟的原則所以我們的船艦飛機有沒有被跟過\n\n08:58.850 --> 09:25.829\n相關的通報過去曾經有這樣的案例有這樣的案例我們的腰山洞也好我們的海巡艦曾經有被跟過就對了對中共對這部分他們現在因為跟委員說明一下中共在這個南海地區他的基建的活動非常的頻繁以三月份來講整個三月份到目前為止來講平均飛機的部分\n\n09:26.209 --> 09:26.970\n當地的那個他還有600艘到700艘的海上民兵啊\n\n09:45.041 --> 10:10.966\n我剛跟委員報告是海軍船艦跟海警的船艦沒有包括海上民運那個量很大我最後把題目要處理我們特勤人員我們憲兵跟特勤中心這個保險我從第9屆第10屆推了好一段時間我現在發現一個很遺憾的事情我們原來是這樣子憲兵當時他們的意外險找得到地方保險\n\n10:12.298 --> 10:30.170\n然後我們明明要求保費的金額要到上限我們希望每一個人都不要出事但出事的時候我們希望理賠的金額要達到我們國家的上限嘛可是特勤中心每次保都保得很低後來在上一屆我們提出質詢之後呢你們就要調成一樣那現在荒謬在哪裡你知道嗎憲兵齁憲兵在2023年以前122萬一樣700人平均保費1600\n\n10:41.499 --> 10:42.240\n我們弟兄姊妹都不希望出錯\n\n11:10.243 --> 11:34.787\n對對但該有的保險法令規定最高我們就應該給他最高嘛應該的可是我現在發現一個現象就是你們保費為什麼漲三倍保額一樣喔售保人數一樣喔保費漲三倍從一百多萬漲到五百多萬民脂民膏欸怎麼會這樣子我們預算編列也是從兩百萬我記得提升到一千萬嘛我們請特勤中心負責為官說明一下跟保險公司公布這要問縣調署要問縣兵縣兵你們為什麼漲價漲三倍一樣的七百人一樣的理賠金額\n\n11:39.895 --> 12:07.524\n你們為什麼漲了三倍保費報委員向委員報告一下因為我們在112年以前我們的保費大概都100多萬就可以承保但是經過這幾年疫情的影響各保險公司出行就不要隨便老是什麼事情都栽贓給疫情2023年到2024年也不過隔了一年而已我跟你講10%20%30%好不好你漲三倍向委員報告我們在去年11月有沒有這個情形這些保險公司跟你說\n\n12:08.567 --> 12:20.801\n特勤中心一個人均編了這麼高特勤中心人均編這麼高那你以前才一千六太便宜了你要漲價否則我不給你標有沒有這個情形包委員絕對沒有那個就聯合壟斷行為絕對沒有因為我談講因為實踐關係第一個把到最高上限這是對的\n\n12:27.369 --> 12:49.087\n但是也不因為我要保到最高上限保費從1600塊爆增到5300塊平均每人然後投保金額從122萬漲到560萬本來是希望我們的特勤中心保障一樣拉到最高結果沒想到現在是把憲兵的調到跟特勤中心一樣貴然後大家來飆\n\n12:50.425 --> 13:12.436\n這是不對的如果保險公司為了我們特勤跟憲兵我們這些弟兄姊妹的安全這樣漲3倍而且是如果不漲他們不來投標這是聯合壟斷行為行政院該處理啊怎麼可以這樣子那你剛才講的COVID-19的關係2023年到2024年也不過就這樣一個跨年而已漲3倍\n\n13:14.309 --> 13:25.596\n我坦白講不能接受啦好不好局長局長跟憲民這邊把這事情查清楚錢金額雖然不大但是不可以這樣子亂漲好不好有沒有法律問題我們來確認謝謝委員提醒謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.389,"end":25.284,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩局長好請蔡局長好謝謝主席王委員早局長早本來我們今天早上還有蠻多問題要問但是我很遺憾馬文君委員還在用老一套的烏龍的烏賊戰術要來轉移他自己被高檢署偵辦泄密叛國"},{"start":27.11,"end":52.897,"text":"那只能說他是前驢技窮讓你捲入這個事情我覺得浪費國家資源不過我們還是要說清楚不過你一樣他不在好我希望轉播可以弄清楚一點第一個2019年的潛艦機密會議當時也許馬文俊委員忙進忙出沒有注意上課沒有聽當時的召集人黃曙光上將他特別報告"},{"start":54.296,"end":57.457,"text":"當時採訪的記者好幾位現在還在會場內我們就在外面我一開頭第一句話就是"},{"start":75.798,"end":101.612,"text":"什麼都不能講但是X維度有授權可以說所以我們就說採取X維度全球X維度都沒有在列機密的那又怕這樣還不夠我還怕字太小我還放大可惜當事人不在這裡有一張海軍的公文海艙計畫也就是潛艦國造計畫裡面的安全管制計畫書載明X維度從頭到尾都沒有列為機密公項"},{"start":105.237,"end":128.599,"text":"現在因為泄密韓國被高檢署偵辦二哥大的使用剛才在巡大過程各位媒體記者在看直播應該聽得到前後矛盾啊那證明他就是有用嘛他只是不曉得人家叫二哥大嘛當時怎麼沒有人制止當時海軍的聯絡人跑到他旁邊就現在林柱英委員坐的位置去跟他講不能用怎麼會沒有"},{"start":130.829,"end":155.246,"text":"為了模糊自己被泄密偵辦有沒有罪我都不講基於同事和諧我很少來這邊講這個事情就讓高檢署去偵辦有罪就有罪沒罪就沒罪被告自證清白就好了可是哪一個老一套已經澄清過而且完全烏龍的烏賊手段想要轉移在偵辦當中身為泄密叛國的被告"},{"start":157.196,"end":159.177,"text":"不好意思不要扯到我們其他人了謝謝"},{"start":180.529,"end":207.891,"text":"被偵辦中的人自己就去對司法交代就好了所以有關潛艦X尾舵是否屬於機密根據海軍海商計畫安全管制計畫書根據當時機密報告的黃曙光的報告內容以及根據當時我們跟媒體講這個是唯一授權可以講因為他無涉機敏他不是機密工項如果不在言論免責保護傘下的話"},{"start":209.738,"end":225.173,"text":"那就說一次告一次去外面講不要在那邊模糊焦點國家利益國家安全何其重大我們在這邊要論的是國家政治而不是個人適不適合坐在那個位置上所以回到我們正辦要談論的事情"},{"start":226.817,"end":246.188,"text":"局長近期的南海局勢因為最新的局勢發展是4月11號拜登要召集美日非三國元首高峰會議這個高峰會議的主題是什麼你沒有講過嗎對他們這一次大概會針對南海的狀況來進行意見的交換因為特別是在人愛交的他們認為南海的問題是什麼"},{"start":248.289,"end":262.474,"text":"對,他們認為中國在當地的一些挑釁的行徑已經破壞到區域的核穩所以其實這個每日非的4月11號的三國的元首高峰會議它裡面其實就一個主題就是中國在南海"},{"start":263.467,"end":292.225,"text":"惹是生非擴張主義灰色地帶手段導致區域緊張局勢升高馬那我們管局有沒有掌握到美國有提出美非共同防禦條約有他們有在討論這個問題那美國也有重申他們的立場那有必要的話他們會啟動美非共同防禦機制他是不是有提到說如果他的船艦菲律賓的船菲律賓的飛機菲律賓的領土遭受攻擊的話美國會出手"},{"start":293.165,"end":317.557,"text":"對這應該是他們接下來峰會也會釐清的一個重點對因為美國如果出手根據美日安保條約每日要同盟同進同出嘛所以當然這在台灣周邊我們太平島也在那裡是我們應該要關切的局勢發展那美日飛又影響到台灣的安全非常重要北邊宮古海峽以上是日本的西南諸島與那國島離我們非常近現在有F35的機場"},{"start":319.358,"end":341.38,"text":"南邊呂宋島菲律賓距離高雄400公里最近一個小島離台灣也差不多100多公里那美國在那邊有大概呂宋島有4個基地在那邊所以美日菲跟台灣的安全議題很有關聯所以在這個時候南海的局勢看起來是中國成為推動升溫的"},{"start":342.619,"end":344.12,"text":"所以我在講的意思就是說"},{"start":372.742,"end":392.599,"text":"事實上,太平島是我們國家的領土,不用質疑嘛,所以那除了長期的聲索權以外,近幾年也沒有聽到有人在挑戰我們實質、擁有、控制太平島,事實上那個本身不是議題,所以這個時候如果讓代表國家的元首去太平島,或者政治人物去太平島,你認為"},{"start":396.848,"end":422.903,"text":"對區域局勢的和緩或緊張會造成什麼效果?對,我想我在早上進入會場之前媒體朋友也有在詢問這個問題那就國安局的關切的主要有兩個重點第一個就是區域政治的情勢是比較複雜化的蔡總統到太平島去會不會被國際社會解讀是在激化當地的緊張情勢而這樣的解讀會不會傷害我們的外交利益這是第一個部分要評估的你這一點我先停一下所以如果我們到那裡"},{"start":424.158,"end":449.658,"text":"按照過去的慣例菲律賓一定會提抗議一定會因為上次我們去看的時候菲律賓的島在距離500到800公尺就看到了他會提抗議而美日菲現在是同盟在對抗中國的擴張主義所以當菲律賓對台灣抗議的時候等於把我們國家推到一個我坦白講不應該的位置上對這也是我們剛剛講到外交利益一定要做妥善的評估對因為那裡是我們的領土可以去"},{"start":450.725,"end":453.326,"text":"對那第二個部分我們評估的重點是在於南海情勢的軍事化"},{"start":469.674,"end":493.468,"text":"所以國際社會對於南海地區的自由航行權跟自由飛越權有非常多的關注而會提出這樣的關注就代表很多各國的基建在穿越南海的海空域的時候都會遭到特定國家的干擾所以我們必須要評估在整個航程過程當中總統的飛航安全跟維安的問題也是國安局關注的重點這個昨天我問外交部他沒辦法回答我請教局長據了解"},{"start":496.169,"end":513.515,"text":"美國澳洲那邊有表現有表示說他們的航飛機船艦在那邊航行的時候有遭受中共軍機騷擾跟攔截那我們固定運補太平島的C13棟或者是海巡的這個船艦有沒有"},{"start":514.715,"end":522.82,"text":"對中共在南海地區他們只要發現到有其他國家的船艦或飛機進入到他們的宣稱的海空域大概都是採取一些逢艦必跟的原則所以我們的船艦飛機有沒有被跟過"},{"start":538.85,"end":565.829,"text":"相關的通報過去曾經有這樣的案例有這樣的案例我們的腰山洞也好我們的海巡艦曾經有被跟過就對了對中共對這部分他們現在因為跟委員說明一下中共在這個南海地區他的基建的活動非常的頻繁以三月份來講整個三月份到目前為止來講平均飛機的部分"},{"start":566.209,"end":566.97,"text":"當地的那個他還有600艘到700艘的海上民兵啊"},{"start":585.041,"end":610.966,"text":"我剛跟委員報告是海軍船艦跟海警的船艦沒有包括海上民運那個量很大我最後把題目要處理我們特勤人員我們憲兵跟特勤中心這個保險我從第9屆第10屆推了好一段時間我現在發現一個很遺憾的事情我們原來是這樣子憲兵當時他們的意外險找得到地方保險"},{"start":612.298,"end":630.17,"text":"然後我們明明要求保費的金額要到上限我們希望每一個人都不要出事但出事的時候我們希望理賠的金額要達到我們國家的上限嘛可是特勤中心每次保都保得很低後來在上一屆我們提出質詢之後呢你們就要調成一樣那現在荒謬在哪裡你知道嗎憲兵齁憲兵在2023年以前122萬一樣700人平均保費1600"},{"start":641.499,"end":642.24,"text":"我們弟兄姊妹都不希望出錯"},{"start":670.243,"end":694.787,"text":"對對但該有的保險法令規定最高我們就應該給他最高嘛應該的可是我現在發現一個現象就是你們保費為什麼漲三倍保額一樣喔售保人數一樣喔保費漲三倍從一百多萬漲到五百多萬民脂民膏欸怎麼會這樣子我們預算編列也是從兩百萬我記得提升到一千萬嘛我們請特勤中心負責為官說明一下跟保險公司公布這要問縣調署要問縣兵縣兵你們為什麼漲價漲三倍一樣的七百人一樣的理賠金額"},{"start":699.895,"end":727.524,"text":"你們為什麼漲了三倍保費報委員向委員報告一下因為我們在112年以前我們的保費大概都100多萬就可以承保但是經過這幾年疫情的影響各保險公司出行就不要隨便老是什麼事情都栽贓給疫情2023年到2024年也不過隔了一年而已我跟你講10%20%30%好不好你漲三倍向委員報告我們在去年11月有沒有這個情形這些保險公司跟你說"},{"start":728.567,"end":740.801,"text":"特勤中心一個人均編了這麼高特勤中心人均編這麼高那你以前才一千六太便宜了你要漲價否則我不給你標有沒有這個情形包委員絕對沒有那個就聯合壟斷行為絕對沒有因為我談講因為實踐關係第一個把到最高上限這是對的"},{"start":747.369,"end":769.087,"text":"但是也不因為我要保到最高上限保費從1600塊爆增到5300塊平均每人然後投保金額從122萬漲到560萬本來是希望我們的特勤中心保障一樣拉到最高結果沒想到現在是把憲兵的調到跟特勤中心一樣貴然後大家來飆"},{"start":770.425,"end":792.436,"text":"這是不對的如果保險公司為了我們特勤跟憲兵我們這些弟兄姊妹的安全這樣漲3倍而且是如果不漲他們不來投標這是聯合壟斷行為行政院該處理啊怎麼可以這樣子那你剛才講的COVID-19的關係2023年到2024年也不過就這樣一個跨年而已漲3倍"},{"start":794.309,"end":805.596,"text":"我坦白講不能接受啦好不好局長局長跟憲民這邊把這事情查清楚錢金額雖然不大但是不可以這樣子亂漲好不好有沒有法律問題我們來確認謝謝委員提醒謝謝"}]}}}}