{"id":150234,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150234","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc3052ba534f1719916aaa7dd815aba809727bf8ba9b0039caa7a6d278d3aca19259545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:56:06 - 11:11:56","影片長度":"00:15:50","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請立法院秘書長列席就「中華民國總統至立法院進行國情報告及詢答模式之建議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-8"},"date":"2024-03-21","duration":950,"end_time":"2024-03-21T11:11:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-21T10:56:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":625,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時56分）好，謝謝主席。秘書長，您主動站上來，本來想說讓您歇息一下、喝口水。"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，沒有，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席、謝謝與會所有同仁。我在發言前也跟主席請求，今天你非常體恤大家，因為這個議題非常重要，你給委員充分發言的時間，剛剛黃國昌總召用了17分鐘，羅智強委員用了13分鐘，我會努力的，你給我15分鐘就好，謝謝。","好，尊重憲法，依法行政，是不論誰執政都應當共同捍衛的，我今天就教於周秘書長，其實我習慣叫您周老師，我從年輕的時候就拜讀您很多的專書、專文，所以同一套憲法，不論誰執政都要共同捍衛。對，就是這套憲法。我要先講前提，不論誰執政，我們要共同捍衛同樣一套憲法。就今天的兩個主題：總統國情報告的安排也好，或者是上週發生在立法院立委質詢權的風波，我們都應當遵守憲法精神，不論誰執政當共同捍衛，我們念茲在茲。秘書長您點頭如搗蒜，我想您非常同意思瑤的說法。","首先，我也要回應一下，我剛剛聽到羅智強委員說他會被民進黨氣死，其實他不知道他質詢完，網路上刷一片，社會會被羅智強笑死！羅智強委員舉賴清德副總統可以參加大學生的論壇，現場接受女大學生的提問，為什麼來立法院不行？羅智強委員指蔡英文總統每天有必要公開行程，媒體會現場採訪他，他也樂意回應，所以女記者可以提問，為什麼立法委員不行？我們是立法委員，在這個憲法之下，今天立法院在會期期間，每一天依序安排會議，開燈、開冷氣、開電腦、開設備，花了民脂民膏、這麼多的人民公帑，我們就應當依據憲法跟議事規則來行使我們的職權，這是立法委員的職權，拿女記者的提問、拿學生對於……報告主席，請維護一下秩序。好，謝謝，不要干擾本席的發言。拿這樣的比喻，我覺得非常的失當、非常的失當。","我也要回應剛剛翁曉玲委員說的時代在變，我們要思考制度要不要改變。我同意，確實如此，但時代在變，修法有法律修法的程序，修憲有依規修憲的程序，所以時代在變，臺灣的制度是不是要改變可以來討論，如果對於現行憲法的規定認為要有所精進，我們就循修憲的程序我也支持，秘書長這樣沒有錯嘛，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我要說我今天在這裡要打假也要打詐，賴清德總統沒有不來國會國情報告，他甚至主動宣示他樂意來，他主動、他樂意，所以未來的總統賴清德沒有不來立法院國情報告，我要打假、打詐。","第二個，來報告怎麼進行？中華民國的總統就要依據中華民國的憲法，就這麼簡單。如果憲法的規定要調整，那就修憲之後，未來的總統依修憲之後來另一套國情報告的程序，大家可以接受，但是現行的憲法就是如此，所以中華民國的總統依憲行事，如果立法委員就把他說為是不尊重國會，這大有問題，不能這樣扣總統帽子。依憲行事的總統，我們不只不能不尊重他，我們更要尊重他依憲行事。","我就不贅述國民黨、民眾黨有一些提案，不僅違憲更貽笑國際，也就是要把總統就目前的憲法規範來立法院是報告而不是詢答、更不是即問即答、更不是常態化，依現行的法制就是違憲，會貽笑國際。","在野黨的委員都喜歡比美國經驗，我們來看美國經驗，美國憲法第二條第三項說總統應經常向國會報告聯邦的施政，並向國會提出他認為必要跟適當的措施。從1790年華盛頓總統開始本人赴國會報告，傑弗遜總統1801年改為書面向國會報告，1913年威爾遜總統恢復本人到國會報告，期間從1913年到現在2024年，美國總統到國會發表國情咨文有88次，當中尼克森1973年、卡特1981年都是用書面的國情咨文，而拜登總統在今年（2024年）3月8日剛剛完成國情報告，他是本人報告。所以美國憲法的經驗是總統沒有強制要到場，但是總統他判斷他要去、他樂意去，不只本人報告，他也可以書面為之，更重要的是美國沒有現場詢答。我們來看一段影片，這是拜登總統2024年3月8號剛發表完的、在美國國會的國情咨文。影片沒有聲音沒關係，他的意思是God bless you all，God bless America，他報告完之後就轉身向主席致意，然後離開，這是美國的制度。","所以美國國情咨文的進行程序是總統進入議場大廳，所有人起立鼓掌，介紹總統正式發表國情咨文，總統愛講多久就講多久，上次拜登講了快二個小時，總統發表完之後隨即離開，兩黨議員不論你的政治觀點如何分歧，不會干預報告的進行，不會對總統進行質問或提問，不會對國情咨文進行後續的討論或表決，美國制度在這裡。","我們來看法國制度，這是馬克宏總統在法國的國會。不好意思，我不會法文，所以我沒有辦法翻譯。他也是報告完之後，接受法國國會議員的鼓勵，大家起立鼓掌中他離開。依據法國憲法第十八條第二項，避免對內閣制或總統制產生混淆，總統不對國會負責，所以總統進行國會演說之後，後續法國的國會議員確實可以進行辯論或表決，但必須是在總統離場之後，這是法國的雙首長制、半總統制，也是中華民國憲法1997年修憲之後我們援引的憲政經驗，我們適用最多的是法國案例。所以就國際經驗來看，外國是這樣，Seeing is believing，我show出相關的美國、法國的憲法條文，以及實際國情報告的影片。","周萬來老師，我一再說我從年輕時代就拜讀您所有的專書，我二十出頭就是國會幕僚，我甚至還在大學就是1997年國民大會修憲現場的政策助理，所以臺灣、中華民國憲法如何從訂定為現在的半總統制、雙首長制那個過程，我都在現場。我不敢賣弄，我沒有您專業，所以我會買您的書來研讀。您這一本「立法院職權行使法逐條釋論」2020年又再版了，您看，一直再版、一直再版，因為它寫得太好了！它是所有依循議事規則職權行使人都要讀的bible，我們來看看這個bible上面怎麼寫。周萬來老師，針對立法委員邀請總統來國情報告，可不可以詢答呢？周萬來老師說，僅賦予立法院聽取總統國情報告的權力，但不得就政府施政向其提供建言。這是在周萬來老師這本書的第155頁。","我希望周萬來老師永遠是我們學習、擷取議事經驗的周萬來老師。我甚至覺得您是「周萬能」秘書長，但是萬能秘書長不要基於政黨的壓力而成為「萬萬不能」，我想您不會，您絕對不會，我對您尊重，我也肯定。","我再分享一下馬英九跟王金平那個時候的情形。2012年馬英九總統受邀到立法院國情報告的時候，當時的總統府發言人范姜泰基說，如果堅持要加入詢答，將創下憲政惡例，嚴重破壞憲法規定。這是2012年總統府馬英九的發言人范姜泰基先生所說的，他說馬總統接受國會的質詢違反憲法。","我們再看看2015年王金平院長的時候，當時也邀請馬英九針對馬習會，對不起，不是「邀請」，是國民黨主動，馬總統說他要來國會報告。王金平院長說，質詢就違憲，因為總統不是國會監督的對象，這是王金平院長說的。您是立法院的活字典，同樣地，王金平院長是我們永遠敬重的國會偉大領袖。這是王金平院長所說的。","我手上也有拿到國民黨智庫的資料，很專業，我非常肯佩國民黨投入很多的資源，讓學者專家做學術研究。國政評論──財團法人國政基金會所做的研究報告，2008年針對要不要總統國情報告的時候，這是國民黨智庫的研究結論：根據憲政主義的思考，憲法並未賦予立法委員得質詢總統的權力。這是總統的國會咨文，國民黨智庫的意見。2012年國政基金會的學者再次研究，針對同一議題，結論是什麼？應從憲法規定做起，以嚴肅的態度看待此事，否則只會變成國會笑話，也會變成國際笑話。這是國民黨的智庫。","所以我今天花了這些時間，您可以統合規定嗎？秘書長，統合回應嗎？現在的憲法沒有改，就依現在的憲法，捍衛憲法精神，不論誰執政，都當如此。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝吳委員，我簡單地大概區分，當然，您手中有我職權行使法這本書裡面的這一章，這裡面要區分兩個做報告……"],["吳委員思瑤：職權行使法不能逾越憲法的精神跟規定喔！"],["周秘書長萬來：不是，你剛才舉我那本書裡面嘛。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["周秘書長萬來：我要先釐清兩點，第一個，憲法增修條文第四條第三項的規定裡面，我要……"],["吳委員思瑤：時間寶貴。"],["周秘書長萬來：我再兩分鐘跟你報告，這個第四條第三項，所以這在前面剛才引述我在那本書第一頁的前言有說明。"],["吳委員思瑤：我不是在前言，我是用你自己的QA，是。"],["周秘書長萬來：就是在第二章之一的書裡面所寫的，第一個狀況就是說，憲法增修條文這樣改了以後，我們跟美國不同的就是美國的總統他有立法的權力……"],["吳委員思瑤：我都有看到，但是你的結論是……"],["周秘書長萬來：我要說明的就是……"],["吳委員思瑤：不宜？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，立法院對於國情報告，它有決定權……所以第十五條之二……"],["吳委員思瑤：當然，我們可以決定要不要邀請總統來……"],["周秘書長萬來：對、對。"],["吳委員思瑤：決定權在立法院各黨團要不要邀請總統來……"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以憲政史上也曾經發生過2012年是由民進黨、台聯、親民黨共同提案邀請馬英九總統來。"],["周秘書長萬來：沒錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：也曾經發生過只有國民黨單獨提案，都有，所以立法委員對於邀請總統的質詢權是在於邀請要不要來的這個決定權。"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：而不是詢答的決定權。"],["周秘書長萬來：這個詢答的部分，因為剛才吳委員有提到在我的第155頁裡面所寫的，而第155頁裡面所寫的這個，我剛才也跟翁委員說明我自己個人的說法，因為這裡面的民主制的責任政治在我們憲法增修條文的第三條第二項第一款的問題……"],["吳委員思瑤：主席站起來了。"],["周秘書長萬來：所以跟總統之間，你可以參酌那邊的看法……"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝，因為我要尊重主席還有後面的委員。"],["周秘書長萬來：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：我希望我們就這個事情就回到憲法精神，時代在進步，如果臺灣針對制度要精進，我們就循修憲的程序，否則依循我們的憲法，該怎麼做就怎麼做，我要提出沉重的、嚴肅的呼籲。我的第二個主題完全沒有時間問，下次希望能夠再安排相關的報告，謝謝秘書長、謝謝主席、謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝，我們現在就處理臨時提案，因為要照剛剛的宣告。","臨時提案總共兩案，請一併宣讀，宣讀後再逐案進行處理，請宣讀。","一、","針對高等法院前行政庭長洪于智涉嫌在鍾文智違反証交法審理程序中，向承審法官施壓要求自請廻避之爭議，已涉及重大違法之缺失，茲請司法院本於權責，就此爭議踐行調查，並在二個月內，向本委員會提出調查報告結果。","提案人：黃國昌　　謝龍介　　羅智強　　翁曉玲　　","二、","案由：","有鑒於國會助理之優劣攸關立委於國會的問政與監督品質，然我國國會，長期被專家學者詬病的問題之一，係國會助理法制保障、薪資權益提升、監督守法機制等，相較於美、日、韓等國而言，明顯不足，且實屬應檢討及精進之國會改革項目。","國會助理權益提升及進行周全規範，有助於使具備有經驗、對於公共事務有熱忱者，願意持續投身國會助理領域，對此職業獲取認同感，並以此為志業與驕傲。","然世界民主先進國家，如美國，其國會助理除了有明確的薪資的界定，預算更是我國數倍以上，且美國國會助理姓名必須公布；日本的國會助理更考試設計，如「政策擔當秘書資格試驗」通過率不高，許多及格者已具有很豐富及優秀國會經驗，而政策擔當秘書，待遇福利更有一定水準。","經查，立法院第10屆已有立法委員提案《立法院公費助理任用條例草案》，顯示對於國會助理改革的注意及重要性。且國會助理之優劣更影響立委於國會的問政與監督品質，倘富有對決策盲點的洞見能力，就能激發行政機關積極執行，且唯有持續監督政府執行，國家發展才能更加健全，故立法院幕僚相關單位對於國會助理權益及法制，應積極給予建議與修法內容，並即刻推動、責無旁貸。","爰此提案要求立法院法制局於二個月內，參考美、日、韓等國國會助理待遇、升遷、管制及監督等施行經驗，研擬我國國會助理改革修法建議版本，以提供所有立法委員參考。","提案人：吳宗憲　　","連署人：謝龍介　　翁曉玲　　"],["主席：好。我們現在進行處理第1案，請問提案委員有沒有需要補充？"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝主席，我想剛剛詢答的過程以及問問題的內容，大家其實都可以看得到，我必須要說明一下，第一個，我在上一次質詢的時候已經把問題給點出來了，這個不是在審判中的事項，這個是在審判外發生的狀況。第二個，目前這個案件也脫離了高等法院的訴訟繫屬。第三個，高等法院既然都已經發了新聞稿說有誤會，但我今天早上詢答的時候，我就請教秘書長是哪裡有誤會？是有去要他自請迴避，但不構成施壓？還是連叫他去自請迴避這件事情都沒有？秘書長不願意回答，既然不願意回答也不要浪費大家的時間，就讓司法院本於他們的權責去進行調查。請它兩個月以後把這個報告向本委員會報告，總不能說連這麼離譜的事情，我們立法院的司法及法制委員會都不能監督。"],["主席：請問針對臨時提案，司法院這裡有沒有其他意見或說明？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我也有向委員說明，因為我們必須要釐清，這邊所提到的「已涉及重大違法之缺失」，因為畢竟在一個民主法治社會，相關人基本上都有他的權利義務，我們當然一定要釐清，但是這邊寫「已涉及重大違法之缺失」，院際之間有時候在這些文字上，我比較建議還是不用先下這樣的結果，這是我的看法。"],["主席：請鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長請回，我沒有要針對秘書長詢問。我建議請主席可以再釐清本委員會的權責，首先，我想要跟主席提醒，今天我們邀請兩院的秘書長就總統赴立法院進行國情報告的事項，剛剛主席有答復了，會邀請司法院是因為涉及到一些對憲法解釋上的看法，沒有錯吧？我後來問了秘書長，秘書長也說得很清楚，對於院際之間或憲法最高機關，就是憲政機關的爭議，本於司法最後性原則，他們不便一開始就跳出來。目前也沒有針對總統到立法院進行國情報告有任何的聲請釋憲案件要求憲法訴訟，沒有，所以基本上他們今天到本會來列席的義務已完畢。","至於本委員會，我也要提醒主席及其他委員，給你們做個參考，立法院設置8個委員會是承院會之指派，進行法案、預算案等案的事先審查，所以在一讀會院會通過之後交付本委員會，我們是僅就院會交付的任務來進行審查，審查完竣後再交給院會進行後續的二讀或三讀，不管是法律案或預算案都是如此，本委員會是向立法院的院會接受院會的交付工作，就院會交付工作進行審議。但是根據憲法條文，行政院依左列規定向立法院負責，本委員會只能就向立法院負責的行政院各行政機關首長進行相關的詢問，這是我們為了要審議它的預算，要瞭解它的業務，並且作為我們立法之參考。","至於司法院在憲法上跟立法院是平行的，都是憲政機關，司法院在憲法上沒有任何一個條文要向立法院負責，所以今天我們邀請司法院來只是就他們的立法計畫，請他們報告。未來我們在審議司法院預算的時候，也可以就它的預算執行立法院的權責，即預算審議權。除此之外，司法院的相關人員並無向立法院報告之義務，尤其是不管立法院所掌管的業務，有沒有審理中的案件，司法院自有監察院根據憲法的規定，針對司法人員是否有履行公務人員應盡義務公平審慎處理。這些司法案件是當監察委員基於獨立行使職權發動調查的時候，司法院的人員有必要去監察院應調查。","如果大家對基本的憲法分際都還有些疑義，我還是再次提醒兩點，第一，委員會是承院會之交付，幫院會進行大會審議之前，我們先進行審查、討論，並且請必要人員來報告。第二，憲法上沒有規定司法院要和行政院一樣向立法院負責。第三，請主席要注意、建議、提醒目前司法院的列席人員僅是就今天我們處理到相關於憲法分際的總統到立法院進行國情報告，因應我們的邀請來做說明，秘書長已經說明完畢了，我覺得本委員會不宜再逾越憲法的分際，進行紊亂我們憲政體制的作法。"],["主席：謝謝。請黃委員。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院秘書長到司法及法制委員會接受備詢這件事情，其他各個委員會包括司法及法制委員會從來沒有規定臨時提案限於今天的主題範圍之內。第二個，我針對這件事情所提出來的質詢，本來就是國會可以進行監督的事項，我剛剛已經說了，這不是審判上發生的事情，這是審判外發生的事情，而且這個個案早就脫離了高等法院的訴訟繫屬，今天高等法院可以在一天的時間當中就發出了新聞稿，我們不能夠針對這個涉及這麼嚴重的事情要求司法院本於權責進行調查？我沒有辦法理解啊！剛剛那個立論的基礎到底是什麼？"],["主席：吳委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：針對這個提案我簡要分享一下我的觀點啦，如果我沒有理解錯誤，基於黃總召在前前次的質詢裡頭針對司法院高等法院的一個案子，然後法官的審理過程有沒有迴避的事情有提出質詢，事後司法院回去是用新聞稿來回應說並沒有委員所說的這個情事，所以司法院是依它的職權要捍衛他們實際調查的結果，那他們發布了這個新聞，當然會引發我們質詢委員的不滿，始末是這樣，所以會有今天的這個臨時提案。我個人的看法就是我當然也同意今天主題以外的提案是可以提的，這個是沒有問題的，過去也都有慣例，只是說提案的內容是不是涉及比較個案性的，我會覺得過了這樣的提案，是不是會讓外界覺得立法院的司法及法制委員會政治力在影響司法，我覺得這個部分是我個人看到這個提案我要提出來的提醒，我也必要來發表我的觀點，所以大家可以審酌一下這樣的提案適不適合在這裡來通過，謝謝。"],["主席：莊委員先舉手，莊委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席還有在場的委員，我是不曉得黃國昌委員所提的這個案子的實際狀況，臨時提案裡面提到的是說針對高等法院的前行政庭長涉嫌在鍾文智違反證交法審理的程序中向承審法官施壓，要求迴避的一個爭議。因為我不曉得這個具體的前提事實是不是正確，我是不瞭解，因為個案我沒有那麼熟悉，但是我剛剛從秘書長的答復裡面是類似於講說是不是文字去做修正，如果有涉及到爭議的，司法院本於它自己的權責去把它做一個釐清，立法院在這個地方，院際之間我相信這樣的一個提醒，我覺得還好啦！但是這些前提事實，因為畢竟黃委員一直在專注這樣的一個議題，他對這一個事情有費力、著力很深，事實的情況到底是怎麼樣，司法院是不是也可以來做一個說明？因為這件事情質詢完以後，你們應該也有做一定的調查，可不可以跟在場的委員也做說明一下好不好？否則一個臨時提案這樣出來以後，前提事實大家不清楚，那真的是無從判斷。"],["主席：因為這樣子我看雙方沒有任何共識，也差距太遠，我剛剛有想說是不是要休息讓大家討論，但我看也沒這個必要嘛！因為差太遠，是不是我們直接用表決的方式來處理？這樣直接解決。"],["鍾委員佳濱：報告主席，違憲的東西不能表決，釋字第461號就講得很清楚，我要不要唸給大家聽？它說「司法、考試、監察三院既得就其所掌有關事項，向立法院提出法律案；各該機關之預算案並應經立法院審查，則其所屬非獨立行使職權而負行政職務之人員」，在本案就是我們秘書長，「於其提出之法律案及有關預算案涉及之事項，亦有依上開憲法規定，應邀說明之必要」，很清楚嘛！今天司法院院長不用來，因為他是獨立行使的人員，大法官不用來，但是如果是職務的像秘書長，他在兩個情況來，在本院審理預算案、審理法律案的時候提出說明，這是釋字第461號很清楚的一個要旨，我想這個案子在過去立法院也不是不曾發生過，在民國85年，那時候要邀請參謀總長來立法院備詢的時候，因此有提出釋憲，大法官也作出了如此的解釋，請主席要慎思，這不是一個可以透過立法院表決憲法違憲事項的內容。"],["主席：我看就等黃委員你說完之後，我們就馬上處理好了啦！還是說你們要休息3分鐘溝通？"],["黃委員國昌：不用了，我這樣說明好了啦！今天如果通過這樣子的臨時提案，司法院認為有違憲之虞的話，那就請你們自己去聲請，今天邀的是司法院的秘書長，今天有邀法官還是大法官來這邊備詢嗎？第二個、我再強調一次，這是審判外的事項，我最忌諱的事情就是司法關說，所以司法關說沒有罪，法官可以在裡面這樣胡搞瞎搞，立法院不能監督、人民不能知道？司法院去聲請釋憲的時候自己主張嘛！這是審判獨立的事項嘛！立法院沒有資格問嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，我要就教一下，今天這個個案不管是不是繫屬於法院，它到底跟本院在審理司法院的預算案或法律案哪一個相關？這個如果能夠說明，那本席願意來恭領這樣的一個指教。第二、對於有無違憲的部分，如果本委員會做出一個決議，可能到我們院會就受到挑戰了，司法院也可以不予理會本委員會的決議，除非我們對於司法院不理會本委員的決議有意見，我們來提出，那時候才是由本院來提出釋憲的聲請，不是由司法院，司法院根本連釋憲聲請都不用提，它就根本不理會你就好啦！因為這非屬於法律案，也非屬於預算案，這是一個個案，在這個國會的殿堂上針對個案詢問司法院，不管他是秘書長還是法官都有涉及到為個案進行影響的可能性。"],["主席：這樣我看那個時間要結束啦！不然這樣討論下去沒有結果，對啊！我發表我的意見，我認為有沒有違憲也不是大家說了算，我想這個應該是大法官的職權，我想……"],["吳秘書長三龍：共同的法律共同遵守，在國會殿堂應該有它一定的高度啦！所以我覺得每一句話，大家就每一個人、每一句話都要為歷史負責任，所以我會覺得這個要很慎重地來看待。"],["吳委員思瑤：我爭取再一次發言，我希望真的，大家要慎思啦！司法及法制委員會在處理跟司法院攸關的就是它的法律案跟預算案的處置，我們真的不宜就個案去進行我們有自己的價值判斷的提案，真的要再次提醒，我們難得看到司法院的秘書長有為有守站在他的職權上，在回答問題的時候講得這麼沉重、這麼嚴肅。同一套法律大家都要遵循，我們是立法委員，我剛剛看到秘書長在台上這一番話，他誠懇地呼籲，我是覺得滿痛的啦！我是希望大家要能夠為所當為，不要超越我們的權限好嗎？我再次提醒，不宜就不宜。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可不可以提修正案？我提修正案。"],["羅委員智強：我剛剛覺得綜合各個委員還有包括我們的司法院秘書長的回答，我的建議就是做文字修正啦！就是已涉及重大違法之缺失，我建議是改成是否涉及違法重大之缺失，不要先直接做一個文字上就太過肯定句，我覺得可以做一個所謂的疑問句。當然第二個就是說確實就各有立論，可是事實上在座我們沒有一個人是司法院的大法官，所以到底是不是涉及違憲，我覺得這個不是我們在座的人說了算啦！立法院還是有立法院我們的行使職權的尊嚴，那既然在這邊有不同的意見，我覺得我也贊成主席講的，那就是交付表決，只是說我提一個修正文字。"],["主席：鍾委員，就修正文字部分喔！"],["鍾委員佳濱：對於修正文字部分，我提出再修正動議，這個部分我認同羅委員的說法，我們在文字上要儘量避免影響五院的分際，我建議最後面不是向本委員會提出，而是請移送監察院進行調查，因為對於司法案件審理過程的任何疏失、缺失有調查權限的是監察院，在「就此爭議踐行調查」後面，請司法院進行調查，並向監察院提出說明，本院本委會也可以提出本案誠如黃總召的意見一樣，我們把這個案子交付監察委員，讓監察委員受理後，他們就司法院的調查報告進行必要的監督，我覺得這樣才符合。目前的各立法委員，民進黨是強烈持續主張廢除考監，但是在憲法沒有修改之前，在五院的分際中，監察院負有監督行政的職責，包括司法行政，我們立法委員不宜逾越，所以我建議、附議羅委員的意見，除了文字修改之外，加上改移請監察院進行調查。"],["主席：這部分如果改請移送監察院調查，文字修正成這樣的話，各位委員有沒有異議？"],["傅委員崐萁：不同意。"],["主席：不同意喔？"],["傅委員崐萁：閹割立法院權益，不同意！現在的監察院有在調查事情嗎？"],["主席：羅智強委員說是否涉及違法重大之缺失……"],["吳委員思瑤：昨天傅總召不是說監察院廢了算了嗎？"],["傅委員崐萁：就把它廢了。"],["主席：這個文字是否要做修正？大家有無異議？"],["吳委員思瑤：還是有A、B、C三案嗎？"],["主席：我現在在講羅智強委員的……"],["吳委員思瑤：A案是黃國昌總召、B案是羅智強委員、C案是鍾佳濱委員，A、B、C三個提案。"],["吳秘書長三龍：主席，我能不能發言一下、說明一下？"],["林委員思銘：召委，不用送監察院，因為送監察院好像就肯定它是有問題。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個程序這樣還是不行，我不得不表示……"],["主席：我們現在分A、B、C三案好了，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：不是，要讓我說明一下，畢竟院際有一個分際，我對於向監察院提出調查這一點還是有疑問，因為司法院畢竟有一套的程序，所以不要一下子就要向監察院提出調查或什麼，我倒覺得不用那樣，任何事還是有一定的比例原則，這樣可能會比較好一點。我很感謝鍾委員，但是真的不要提到監察院，我倒覺得這樣比較好，所以或許就剛剛……"],["傅委員崐萁：司法院做內部調查讓我們知道結果……"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是這樣，我們一定會本於權責妥適處理。"],["吳委員思瑤：羅智強委員的文字修正，我同意啊！"],["主席：我們第一個先表決鍾委員所提出來的修正，就是在最後面移請監察院調查……"],["吳委員思瑤：等一下，佳濱還是你就不要了？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟你講，我們沒有要求司法院向監察院提調查報告，我是說本委員會建議本案移送監察院，這裡面不包含要求司法院向監察院提出報告，可能秘書長誤會了，我說如果你們願意給監察院提報告，那是你們的事情，本委員會不能命令司法院、監察院做什麼事情，但是本委員會可以將相關的事項移請監察院調查，我的本旨只有後面這一項，沒有包括要求司法院向監察院提出調查報告。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我建議是不是……"],["主席：所以鍾委員的意思到底是不是文字修正？"],["鍾委員佳濱：是文字修正啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：是不是我們先向貴委員會提出報告？"],["主席：請問在場的委員……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請司法院提文字修正，好不好？"],["吳委員思瑤：不然休息2分鐘，給他處理一下，好不好？讓司法院做文字修正，休息2分鐘，好不好？"],["主席：我們休息3分鐘，請他們趕快做修正。","休息（11時34分）","繼續開會（11時39分）"],["主席：時間到，我們現在開始開會。剛剛大家好像有討論出一個結論，就是……"],["柯委員建銘：唸看看。結論是怎麼樣？唸一下，我們再發言一下，好不好？"],["主席：我現在先簡單說明一下，剛剛討論的結果，我這邊得到訊息是，就本案的部分，文字刪除掉「已涉及重大違法之缺失」，這幾個字刪除；再來，雙方現在不同的部分是要「建請司法院本於權責」，還是「茲請司法院本於權責」？就是到底是建議案還是決議案，現在是就這個部分雙方意見不一樣。","總召。"],["柯委員建銘：所謂雙方意見不一樣是哪一部分不一樣？"],["主席：茲請還是建請。"],["柯委員建銘：好，那我講一下好了，這個題目上禮拜黃國昌委員也詢質過，他今天繼續追打，我們都很尊重每一個委員的發言權，第一個。第二個，大法官釋字第461號請大家翻一下，1998年的時候，我們民進黨要求參謀總長唐飛必須來立法院做報告，唐飛不來，唐飛不來以後聲請大法官釋憲，所以當年在7月釋出來，它解釋得很清楚，先講唐飛的事情，因為唐飛雖然是參謀總長，他不來是過去的慣例，但是唐飛當參謀總長，這個位子這麼重要，國防的經費、預算等等，他絕對有和部長一樣等級的參與，所以他必須來受立法院監督，同時槓上開花，又解釋出來，就是說五院之間的權責問題，當然，我們知道監察院就是獨立行使職權，考試院亦復如此，司法院亦復如此，所以那時候就講，大法官解釋出來，其實包括司法院長可以不來立法院備詢，憲法慣例都是沒有，都是尊重，沒有踩過這條線，所以那時候就講說包括考試院、司法院、監察院等等，他們都是獨立行使職權，所以不用來立法院，除非就是秘書長有實際負責院務的人，所以我們常常看到司法院秘書長，乃至於監察院秘書長、考試院秘書長都來立法院備詢，有關什麼？有關的預算及法案，假如今天這個案子，立法院，不管這個案子內容怎麼樣，我們每次都做決議對於個案要去指揮、要去做調查、限多少時間來，那這個權力可大了。不管這個案子，我是覺得黃國昌委員這個提案有其正當性，當然這個例子打開的時候，以後立法院依照這樣做的話，很多個案每次都要提出來，難道我們要表決嗎？這是憲政層次的問題，所以大家要很慎重來考慮這個事情，不管建請與否，最好的方式就是剛才鍾佳濱委員講的，移送監察院去調查就好了，這本來就是如此嘛！難道我們在這裡指揮司法嗎？這讓大家想清楚，當然要表決、大家表態，沒有問題啊！但是大家要想一想，以後很多案子都可以援引做這樣的要求。"],["主席：那因為我們剛剛都已經討論過了，所以現在……"],["吳秘書長三龍：是不是我再發言一下？"],["主席：是。"],["吳秘書長三龍：可能送監察院那一部分，我剛剛有講就是不要提到，還是不要……"],["主席：沒有啦！這還是讓……好啦！我們就先依照立法院議事規則第三十五條宣告本案進行舉手表決，表決前先清點在場委員人數，在場委員11人，現在開始進行表決。"],["莊委員瑞雄：表決哪一案？有修正的嗎？"],["主席：我們現在是這樣，我再說一次，其實我剛剛已經說過了，就是我們就原本的提案，刪除的文字是「已涉及重大違法之缺失」這幾個字刪除掉，現在雙方的爭議只有一個部分，就是到底是「建請司法院本於權責」，還是「茲請司法院本於權責」，現在雙方的差距是在這個地方，所以我們就本案到底是建議案還是決議案去進行表決，我想這應該很清楚了。"],["柯委員建銘：不管建議還是茲請，事實上……"],["主席：我剛剛都已經說過。"],["柯委員建銘：立法院這樣的表決就是有實質影響力，給人家很大壓力，所以以後是不是可以每一個司法個案都來這裡做個案調查？大家想一想。"],["主席：一樣，我想……"],["柯委員建銘：要表決沒有關係啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，這邊有兩案，現在主席宣讀的就一個案了，同意跟不同意，對不對？就是「茲請」這個案子就是同意跟不同意，沒有所謂的「建請」，因為提案者已經拒絕修正了，如果真的要這樣表決，依會議程序，應該修正案先表決，先用「建請」來表決，再來表決「茲請」。"],["柯委員建銘：沒關係啦，隨便他們要怎麼用都沒關係啦！這是一個憲政層次的問題，你要用比較有面子的寫法還是比較硬的寫法都尊重。"],["主席：好，那我們就本案，因為原案就是「茲請」，所以我們現在就是否改為「建請」，這一句表決就好。"],["柯委員建銘：何謂「茲請」、「建請」，先說明一下好不好？"],["傅委員崐萁：不是，這個不要……"],["柯委員建銘：說文解字一下。"],["主席：不是，這個大家都知道嘛。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席……"],["柯委員建銘：「茲請」總統來做……"],["傅委員崐萁：已經停止討論了怎麼還……"],["主席：我想這個不用討論了啦！"],["柯委員建銘：國政報告是「茲請」。"],["傅委員崐萁：講了40分鐘了。"],["主席：我們現在就這個部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，程序處理，現在只有一個案在場，那就同意跟不同意做表決而已嘛，沒有兩個案，因為既然大家不同意有修正動議在場，我們就一個案表決。"],["柯委員建銘：你們提這個案子，大家來表決就好。"],["主席：我們現在開始進行表決。","對於改為茲請案，大家是否同意，同意的請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：6位。","不同意的請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：好，贊成的是多數，本臨時提案此部分就改為「茲請司法院本於權責」。","報告表決結果：在場有11人，贊成者有6人，反對者有5人，本案贊成者多數，就改為「茲請」，以此通過。","現在進行第2案。第2案的部分，剛剛有跟秘書長討論過，所以就文字的部分，最後一段「法制局」三個字以及「修法建議版本」的「修法」兩個字刪除掉，做這樣的修正，請問有無不同的意見？（無）好，沒有的話，本臨時提案通過。","我們接續請傅崐萁委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","羅智強","翁曉玲","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra 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\"text\": \"時間寶貴我再兩分鐘跟你報告就是說這個第四條第三項嘛所以這一個在前面剛才引述我在第一頁的那一本書的前言有說明我不是在前言我是用你具體的QA是是是就是第二章這一本在第二章之一的這個書裡面所寫的第一個狀況就是說這一個憲法徵修條文這樣改了以後\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"寶\"}, {\"word\": \"貴\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 825.635, \"end\": 827.276, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 827.276, \"end\": 827.696, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 827.696, \"end\": 827.876, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"鐘\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 827.876, \"end\": 827.976, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 827.976, \"end\": 828.256, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 828.256, \"end\": 828.796, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 828.796, \"end\": 828.936, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 828.936, \"end\": 829.796, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 829.796, \"end\": 829.936, 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\"況\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 847.882, \"end\": 848.042, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 848.042, \"end\": 848.882, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 848.882, \"end\": 849.322, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 849.322, \"end\": 849.682, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"徵\"}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 849.682, \"end\": 849.982, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 849.982, \"end\": 850.563, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 850.563, \"end\": 850.743, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 850.743, \"end\": 850.923, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 850.923, \"end\": 851.103, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 851.103, \"end\": 851.123, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 852.003, \"end\": 852.403, \"text\": \"立法院對於國情報告他有決定權\", \"words\": 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947.819, \"end\": 947.879, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 947.879, \"end\": 947.899, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 947.899, \"end\": 947.94, \"score\": 0.448}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 947.94, \"end\": 947.96, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:23,781 --> 00:00:24,201\n首頁好嗎?\n\n2\n00:00:37,150 --> 00:00:53,257\n好謝謝主席來：秘書長您主動站上來本來想說讓你歇息一下喝口水謝謝主席謝謝與會所有的同仁那我在發言前也跟主席這個請求今天您非常的體恤大家因為這個議題非常重要你給委員充分發言的時間剛剛黃國昌總召用了17分鐘羅志強委員用了13分鐘我會努力的你給我15分鐘就好謝謝\n\n3\n00:01:05,202 --> 00:01:25,709\n尊重憲法依法行政是不論誰執政都應當共同捍衛的我今天就教於周秘書長其實我習慣叫您周老師我從年輕的時候就拜讀您很多的專書專文所以同一套憲法不論誰執政都要共同捍衛對我拿錯了哈這裡\n\n4\n00:01:27,350 --> 00:01:43,595\n就是這套憲法我要先講前提不論誰執政我們要共同捍衛同樣一套憲法那就今天的兩個主題總統國情報告的安排也好或者是上週發生在立法院立委質詢權\n\n5\n00:01:45,395 --> 00:01:52,781\n首先我也要回應一下我剛剛聽到羅志強委員說他會被民進黨氣死其實他不知道他執行完網路上刷一片\n\n6\n00:02:16,250 --> 00:02:18,145\n社會會被羅志強笑死\n\n7\n00:02:19,517 --> 00:02:45,964\n羅志祥委員舉賴清德副總統可以參加大學生的論壇那現場接受女大學生的提問那為什麼來立法院不行羅志祥委員指說蔡英文總統每天有必要公開行程的話有媒體現場採訪她她也樂意來回應所以女記者都可以提問為什麼立法委員不行\n\n8\n00:02:47,813 --> 00:03:05,701\n我們是立法委員在這個憲法之下我們今天立法院在會期期間每一天依序來安排會議開燈開冷氣開電腦開設備花了民脂民膏這麼多的人民公帑我們就應當依據憲法\n\n9\n00:03:07,822 --> 00:03:18,012\n跟議事規則來行使我們的職權這是立法委員的職權拿女記者的提問拿學生對於\n\n10\n00:03:19,847 --> 00:03:47,803\n報告主席請維護一下秩序不要干擾本席的發言拿這樣的比喻我覺得非常的適當非常的適當我也要回應剛剛翁曉琳委員說時代在變我們要思考制度要不要改變我同意確實如此但是時代在變修法有法律修法的程序修憲有依規修憲的程序\n\n11\n00:03:48,823 --> 00:04:07,899\n所以時代在變．台灣的制度是不是要改變．可以來討論．如果對於現行憲法的規定．有所認為要精進．我們就循修憲的程序．我也支持．秘書長這樣沒有錯嗎．對不對．所以我要說．我今天在這裡要打假也要打詐喔．\n\n12\n00:04:09,648 --> 00:04:35,294\n賴清德總統沒有不來國會國情報告他甚至是主動宣示他樂意來他主動他樂意所以賴清德未來的總統沒有不來立法院國情報告我要打假打詐第二個來報告怎麼進行中華民國的總統就要依據中華民國的憲法\n\n13\n00:04:37,679 --> 00:04:58,567\n這麼簡單如果說憲法的規定要調整那就修憲之後未來的總統依修憲之後來另一套國情報告的程序大家可以接受但是現行的憲法就是如此所以中華民國的憲法依憲形式如果立法委員就把它說為是不尊重國會這大有問題不能這樣\n\n14\n00:05:03,131 --> 00:05:03,211\n下一頁\n\n15\n00:05:17,931 --> 00:05:40,963\n我就不贅述喔國民黨民眾黨有一些提案不僅違憲更移效國際也就是要把總統就目前的憲法規範來立法院是報告而不是詢答更不是急問急答更不是常態化依現行的法制就是違憲會移效國際下一頁\n\n16\n00:05:43,976 --> 00:06:00,643\n在野黨的委員都喜歡比美國驚豔我們來看美國驚豔美國的憲法第二條第三項說總統應經常向國會報告聯邦的施政並向國會提出他認為必要跟適當的措施好從1790年華盛頓總統開始本人赴國會報告傑弗遜總統1801年改為書面向國會報告1913年威爾遜總統恢復是本人到國會報告\n\n17\n00:06:13,428 --> 00:06:37,323\n其間從1913年到現在的2024年總統美國總統到國會發表國情咨文有88次而當中呢尼克森1973年卡特1981年都是用書面的國情咨文而拜登總統在今年剛剛完成的國情報告2024年的3月8號他是本人所以美國的憲法的經驗是\n\n18\n00:06:40,084 --> 00:07:07,091\n總統沒有強制要到場但是總統他判斷他要去他樂意去而不只本人他可以書面為之更重要的是美國沒有現場詢答我們來看一段影片這是拜登總統2024年3月8號剛發表完的在美國國會的國情咨文沒有聲音沒關係他意思是GodblessyouallGodblessAmerica\n\n19\n00:07:08,390 --> 00:07:17,665\n他報告完之後他就轉身向主席致意然後離開這是美國的制度下一頁\n\n20\n00:07:19,318 --> 00:07:27,820\n所以說美國的國情咨文進行的程序是總統進入一場大廳所有人起立鼓掌介紹總統正式發表國情咨文總統愛講多久就講多久上次拜登講了快兩個小時總統發表完之後隨即離開兩黨的議員不論你的政治觀點如何的分歧不會干預報告的進行不會對總統進行質問或提問不會對國情咨文進行後續的討論或表決\n\n21\n00:07:46,886 --> 00:08:12,485\n美國制度在這裡我們來看法國制度就是馬克宏總統在法國的國會不好意思我不會法文我沒有辦法翻譯喔他也是報告完之後接受法國國會議員的鼓勵起立鼓掌他離開好下一頁所以法國一憲法法國憲法第18條第二項\n\n22\n00:08:15,421 --> 00:08:18,694\n避免對內閣制或總統制產生混淆總統是不對國會負責\n\n23\n00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:46,010\n所以呢總統進行國會演說之後後續的法國的國會議員確實可以進行辯論或表決但是他必須在總統離場之後這是法國的雙首長制、半總統制也是中華民國憲法1997年修憲之後我們援引的憲政經驗我們適用最多是法國案例所以說就國際經驗我們來看\n\n24\n00:08:48,814 --> 00:08:51,156\n周恩蕾老師我從年輕時代我一再說\n\n25\n00:09:06,943 --> 00:09:07,924\n臺灣中華民國的憲法如何從定定為現在的\n\n26\n00:09:26,852 --> 00:09:27,992\n我們來看看在Bible上面怎麼寫\n\n27\n00:09:53,021 --> 00:10:15,015\n周外來老師針對立法委員邀請總統來國情報告可不可以詢答呢周外來老師說僅賦予立法院聽取總統國情報告的權利但不得就政府施政向其提供建言周外來老師的這本書是在第155頁嗎155頁我希望周外來老師\n\n28\n00:10:22,355 --> 00:10:30,146\n永遠是我們學習擷取意識經驗的周萬來老師我甚至覺得您是周萬能秘書長\n\n29\n00:10:31,516 --> 00:10:59,311\n但是萬能秘書長不要基於政黨的壓力而成為萬萬不能我想您不會您絕對不會我對您尊重我也肯定下一頁那我再分享一下馬英九跟王金平那個時候2012年馬英九總統受邀到立法院國情報告的時候當時的總統府發言人范江太吉說\n\n30\n00:11:00,788 --> 00:11:15,259\n如果堅持要加入詢答．將創下憲政惡例嚴重破壞憲法規定這是2012年總統府馬英九的發言人范江太基先生所說的馬總統接受國會的質詢違反憲法\n\n31\n00:11:18,641 --> 00:11:40,055\n我們再看看2015年王金平院長的時候他也是當時也邀請馬英九針對馬席會對不起不是邀請是國民黨主動馬總統說他要來國會報告王金平院長說質詢這違憲因為總統不是國會監督的對象王金平院長說的\n\n32\n00:11:41,596 --> 00:11:42,017\n那我手上呢又拿到這是\n\n33\n00:11:56,875 --> 00:12:21,537\n國民黨的智庫很專業我非常肯配國民黨的投入很多的資源讓學者專家做學術研究這個國政評論財團法人國政基金會所做的研究報告2008年針對要不要總統到國情報告的時候這是國民黨智庫的研究結論根據憲政主義的思考\n\n34\n00:12:22,237 --> 00:12:44,099\n憲法並未賦予立法委員得質詢總統的權利這是總統的國會咨文國民黨智庫的意見2012年國政基金會的學者再次研究針對同一議題結論是什麼應從憲法規定做起以嚴肅的態度看待此事否則只會變成\n\n35\n00:12:46,321 --> 00:13:09,573\n國會笑話也會變成國際笑話這是國民黨的之苦所以我今天花了這些時間下一頁好回到前面一頁您可以統合規定嗎秘書長統合回應嗎現在的憲法沒有改就依現在的憲法捍衛憲法精神不論誰執政都當如此\n\n36\n00:13:12,239 --> 00:13:33,456\n謝謝吳委員我簡單的大概區分當然你有手中我有職權行使法裡面的這一張吧這裡面要區分兩個做報告職權行使法不能逾越憲法的精神跟規定喔我剛剛也舉我那書裡面嘛我要先釐清兩點第一個就是說\n\n37\n00:13:35,541 --> 00:13:38,387\n這個憲法遵修條文裡面的這個第4條第3項裡面這樣的一個規定裡面來\n\n38\n00:13:45,635 --> 00:14:11,123\n時間寶貴我再兩分鐘跟你報告就是說這個第四條第三項嘛所以這一個在前面剛才引述我在第一頁的那一本書的前言有說明我不是在前言我是用你具體的QA是是是就是第二章這一本在第二章之一的這個書裡面所寫的第一個狀況就是說這一個憲法徵修條文這樣改了以後\n\n39\n00:14:12,003 --> 00:14:12,403\n立法院對於國情報告他有決定權\n\n40\n00:14:28,434 --> 00:14:57,044\n當然我們可以決定要不要邀請總統來決定權在立法院各黨團要不要邀請總統來所以憲政史上也曾經發生過2012年是由民進黨臺聯親民黨共同提案邀請馬英九總統來陳水扁總統來也曾經發生過只有國民黨單獨提案都有所以立法委員對於邀請總統的諮詢權是在於邀請要不要來的這個決定權而不是詢答的決定權\n\n41\n00:14:59,129 --> 00:15:18,541\n這個詢答的部分因為剛才吳委員有提到我155頁裡面所寫的那155頁所寫的這個是我剛才跟歐委員也在做我自己的個人的說法因為這裡面的民主自由的責任正是我們在向往徵求台灣的第三條地方向第一條的問題\n\n42\n00:15:19,621 --> 00:15:24,825\n所以跟總統之間我希望我們就這個事情就回到憲法精神時代在進步如果台灣針對制度要精進我們就循修憲的程序否則依循我們的憲法該怎麼做就怎麼做我要提出沉重的嚴肅的呼籲也謝謝我第二個主題完全沒有時間問下次希望能夠再安排相關的報告\n\n43\n00:15:47,799 --> 00:15:47,960\n謝謝秘書長謝謝主席謝謝大家\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n23781\t24201\t首頁好嗎?\n37150\t53257\t好 謝謝主席來：秘書長您主動站上來本來想說讓你歇息一下喝口水謝謝主席謝謝與會所有的同仁那我在發言前也跟主席這個請求今天您非常的體恤大家因為這個議題非常重要你給委員充分發言的時間剛剛黃國昌總召用了17分鐘羅志強委員用了13分鐘我會努力的你給我15分鐘就好謝謝\n65202\t85709\t尊重憲法依法行政是不論誰執政都應當共同捍衛的我今天就教於周秘書長其實我習慣叫您周老師我從年輕的時候就拜讀您很多的專書專文所以同一套憲法不論誰執政都要共同捍衛對我拿錯了哈這裡\n87350\t103595\t就是這套憲法我要先講前提不論誰執政我們要共同捍衛同樣一套憲法那就今天的兩個主題總統國情報告的安排也好或者是上週發生在立法院立委質詢權\n105395\t112781\t首先我也要回應一下我剛剛聽到羅志強委員說他會被民進黨氣死其實他不知道他執行完網路上刷一片\n136250\t138145\t社會會被羅志強笑死\n139517\t165964\t羅志祥委員舉賴清德副總統可以參加大學生的論壇那現場接受女大學生的提問那為什麼來立法院不行羅志祥委員指說蔡英文總統每天有必要公開行程的話有媒體現場採訪她她也樂意來回應所以女記者都可以提問為什麼立法委員不行\n167813\t185701\t我們是立法委員在這個憲法之下我們今天立法院在會期期間每一天依序來安排會議開燈開冷氣開電腦開設備花了民脂民膏這麼多的人民公帑我們就應當依據憲法\n187822\t198012\t跟議事規則來行使我們的職權這是立法委員的職權拿女記者的提問拿學生對於\n199847\t227803\t報告主席請維護一下秩序不要干擾本席的發言拿這樣的比喻我覺得非常的適當非常的適當我也要回應剛剛翁曉琳委員說時代在變我們要思考制度要不要改變我同意確實如此但是時代在變修法有法律修法的程序修憲有依規修憲的程序\n228823\t247899\t所以時代在變．台灣的制度是不是要改變．可以來討論．如果對於現行憲法的規定．有所認為要精進．我們就循修憲的程序．我也支持．秘書長這樣沒有錯嗎．對不對．所以我要說．我今天在這裡要打假也要打詐喔．\n249648\t275294\t賴清德總統沒有不來國會國情報告他甚至是主動宣示他樂意來他主動他樂意所以賴清德未來的總統沒有不來立法院國情報告我要打假打詐第二個來報告怎麼進行中華民國的總統就要依據中華民國的憲法\n277679\t298567\t這麼簡單如果說憲法的規定要調整那就修憲之後未來的總統依修憲之後來另一套國情報告的程序大家可以接受但是現行的憲法就是如此所以中華民國的憲法依憲形式如果立法委員就把它說為是不尊重國會這大有問題不能這樣\n303131\t303211\t下一頁\n317931\t340963\t我就不贅述喔國民黨民眾黨有一些提案不僅違憲更移效國際也就是要把總統就目前的憲法規範來立法院是報告而不是詢答更不是急問急答更不是常態化依現行的法制就是違憲會移效國際下一頁\n343976\t360643\t在野黨的委員都喜歡比美國驚豔我們來看美國驚豔美國的憲法第二條第三項說總統應經常向國會報告聯邦的施政並向國會提出他認為必要跟適當的措施好從1790年華盛頓總統開始本人赴國會報告傑弗遜總統1801年改為書面向國會報告1913年威爾遜總統恢復是本人到國會報告\n373428\t397323\t其間從1913年到現在的2024年總統美國總統到國會發表國情咨文有88次而當中呢尼克森1973年卡特1981年都是用書面的國情咨文而拜登總統在今年剛剛完成的國情報告2024年的3月8號他是本人所以美國的憲法的經驗是\n400084\t427091\t總統沒有強制要到場但是總統他判斷他要去他樂意去而不只本人他可以書面為之更重要的是美國沒有現場詢答我們來看一段影片這是拜登總統2024年3月8號剛發表完的在美國國會的國情咨文沒有聲音沒關係他意思是God bless you allGod bless America\n428390\t437665\t他報告完之後他就轉身向主席致意然後離開這是美國的制度下一頁\n439318\t447820\t所以說美國的國情咨文進行的程序是總統進入一場大廳所有人起立鼓掌介紹總統正式發表國情咨文總統愛講多久就講多久上次拜登講了快兩個小時總統發表完之後隨即離開兩黨的議員不論你的政治觀點如何的分歧不會干預報告的進行不會對總統進行質問或提問不會對國情咨文進行後續的討論或表決\n466886\t492485\t美國制度在這裡我們來看法國制度就是馬克宏總統在法國的國會不好意思我不會法文我沒有辦法翻譯喔他也是報告完之後接受法國國會議員的鼓勵起立鼓掌他離開好下一頁所以法國一憲法法國憲法第18條第二項\n495421\t498694\t避免對內閣制或總統制產生混淆總統是不對國會負責\n500720\t526010\t所以呢總統進行國會演說之後後續的法國的國會議員確實可以進行辯論或表決但是他必須在總統離場之後這是法國的雙首長制、半總統制也是中華民國憲法1997年修憲之後我們援引的憲政經驗我們適用最多是法國案例所以說就國際經驗我們來看\n528814\t531156\t周恩蕾老師我從年輕時代我一再說\n546943\t547924\t臺灣中華民國的憲法如何從定定為現在的\n566852\t567992\t我們來看看在Bible上面怎麼寫\n593021\t615015\t周外來老師針對立法委員邀請總統來國情報告可不可以詢答呢周外來老師說僅賦予立法院聽取總統國情報告的權利但不得就政府施政向其提供建言周外來老師的這本書是在第155頁嗎155頁我希望周外來老師\n622355\t630146\t永遠是我們學習擷取意識經驗的周萬來老師我甚至覺得您是周萬能秘書長\n631516\t659311\t但是萬能秘書長不要基於政黨的壓力而成為萬萬不能我想您不會您絕對不會我對您尊重我也肯定下一頁那我再分享一下馬英九跟王金平那個時候2012年馬英九總統受邀到立法院國情報告的時候當時的總統府發言人范江太吉說\n660788\t675259\t如果堅持要加入詢答．將創下憲政惡例嚴重破壞憲法規定這是2012年總統府馬英九的發言人范江太基先生所說的馬總統接受國會的質詢違反憲法\n678641\t700055\t我們再看看2015年王金平院長的時候他也是當時也邀請馬英九針對馬席會對不起不是邀請是國民黨主動馬總統說他要來國會報告王金平院長說質詢這違憲因為總統不是國會監督的對象王金平院長說的\n701596\t702017\t那我手上呢又拿到這是\n716875\t741537\t國民黨的智庫很專業我非常肯配國民黨的投入很多的資源讓學者專家做學術研究這個國政評論財團法人國政基金會所做的研究報告2008年針對要不要總統到國情報告的時候這是國民黨智庫的研究結論根據憲政主義的思考\n742237\t764099\t憲法並未賦予立法委員得質詢總統的權利這是總統的國會咨文國民黨智庫的意見2012年國政基金會的學者再次研究針對同一議題結論是什麼應從憲法規定做起以嚴肅的態度看待此事否則只會變成\n766321\t789573\t國會笑話也會變成國際笑話這是國民黨的之苦所以我今天花了這些時間下一頁好回到前面一頁您可以統合規定嗎秘書長統合回應嗎現在的憲法沒有改就依現在的憲法捍衛憲法精神不論誰執政都當如此\n792239\t813456\t謝謝吳委員我簡單的大概區分當然你有手中我有職權行使法裡面的這一張吧這裡面要區分兩個做報告職權行使法不能逾越憲法的精神跟規定喔我剛剛也舉我那書裡面嘛我要先釐清兩點第一個就是說\n815541\t818387\t這個憲法遵修條文裡面的這個第4條第3項裡面這樣的一個規定裡面來\n825635\t851123\t時間寶貴我再兩分鐘跟你報告就是說這個第四條第三項嘛所以這一個在前面剛才引述我在第一頁的那一本書的前言有說明我不是在前言我是用你具體的QA是是是就是第二章這一本在第二章之一的這個書裡面所寫的第一個狀況就是說這一個憲法徵修條文這樣改了以後\n852003\t852403\t立法院對於國情報告他有決定權\n868434\t897044\t當然我們可以決定要不要邀請總統來決定權在立法院各黨團要不要邀請總統來所以憲政史上也曾經發生過2012年是由民進黨臺聯親民黨共同提案邀請馬英九總統來陳水扁總統來也曾經發生過只有國民黨單獨提案都有所以立法委員對於邀請總統的諮詢權是在於邀請要不要來的這個決定權而不是詢答的決定權\n899129\t918541\t這個詢答的部分因為剛才吳委員有提到我155頁裡面所寫的那155頁所寫的這個是我剛才跟歐委員也在做我自己的個人的說法因為這裡面的民主自由的責任正是我們在向往徵求台灣的第三條地方向第一條的問題\n919621\t924825\t所以跟總統之間我希望我們就這個事情就回到憲法精神時代在進步如果台灣針對制度要精進我們就循修憲的程序否則依循我們的憲法該怎麼做就怎麼做我要提出沉重的嚴肅的呼籲也謝謝我第二個主題完全沒有時間問下次希望能夠再安排相關的報告\n947799\t947960\t謝謝秘書長 謝謝主席 謝謝大家\n","txt":"首頁好嗎?\n好 謝謝主席來：秘書長您主動站上來本來想說讓你歇息一下喝口水謝謝主席謝謝與會所有的同仁那我在發言前也跟主席這個請求今天您非常的體恤大家因為這個議題非常重要你給委員充分發言的時間剛剛黃國昌總召用了17分鐘羅志強委員用了13分鐘我會努力的你給我15分鐘就好謝謝\n尊重憲法依法行政是不論誰執政都應當共同捍衛的我今天就教於周秘書長其實我習慣叫您周老師我從年輕的時候就拜讀您很多的專書專文所以同一套憲法不論誰執政都要共同捍衛對我拿錯了哈這裡\n就是這套憲法我要先講前提不論誰執政我們要共同捍衛同樣一套憲法那就今天的兩個主題總統國情報告的安排也好或者是上週發生在立法院立委質詢權\n首先我也要回應一下我剛剛聽到羅志強委員說他會被民進黨氣死其實他不知道他執行完網路上刷一片\n社會會被羅志強笑死\n羅志祥委員舉賴清德副總統可以參加大學生的論壇那現場接受女大學生的提問那為什麼來立法院不行羅志祥委員指說蔡英文總統每天有必要公開行程的話有媒體現場採訪她她也樂意來回應所以女記者都可以提問為什麼立法委員不行\n我們是立法委員在這個憲法之下我們今天立法院在會期期間每一天依序來安排會議開燈開冷氣開電腦開設備花了民脂民膏這麼多的人民公帑我們就應當依據憲法\n跟議事規則來行使我們的職權這是立法委員的職權拿女記者的提問拿學生對於\n報告主席請維護一下秩序不要干擾本席的發言拿這樣的比喻我覺得非常的適當非常的適當我也要回應剛剛翁曉琳委員說時代在變我們要思考制度要不要改變我同意確實如此但是時代在變修法有法律修法的程序修憲有依規修憲的程序\n所以時代在變．台灣的制度是不是要改變．可以來討論．如果對於現行憲法的規定．有所認為要精進．我們就循修憲的程序．我也支持．秘書長這樣沒有錯嗎．對不對．所以我要說．我今天在這裡要打假也要打詐喔．\n賴清德總統沒有不來國會國情報告他甚至是主動宣示他樂意來他主動他樂意所以賴清德未來的總統沒有不來立法院國情報告我要打假打詐第二個來報告怎麼進行中華民國的總統就要依據中華民國的憲法\n這麼簡單如果說憲法的規定要調整那就修憲之後未來的總統依修憲之後來另一套國情報告的程序大家可以接受但是現行的憲法就是如此所以中華民國的憲法依憲形式如果立法委員就把它說為是不尊重國會這大有問題不能這樣\n下一頁\n我就不贅述喔國民黨民眾黨有一些提案不僅違憲更移效國際也就是要把總統就目前的憲法規範來立法院是報告而不是詢答更不是急問急答更不是常態化依現行的法制就是違憲會移效國際下一頁\n在野黨的委員都喜歡比美國驚豔我們來看美國驚豔美國的憲法第二條第三項說總統應經常向國會報告聯邦的施政並向國會提出他認為必要跟適當的措施好從1790年華盛頓總統開始本人赴國會報告傑弗遜總統1801年改為書面向國會報告1913年威爾遜總統恢復是本人到國會報告\n其間從1913年到現在的2024年總統美國總統到國會發表國情咨文有88次而當中呢尼克森1973年卡特1981年都是用書面的國情咨文而拜登總統在今年剛剛完成的國情報告2024年的3月8號他是本人所以美國的憲法的經驗是\n總統沒有強制要到場但是總統他判斷他要去他樂意去而不只本人他可以書面為之更重要的是美國沒有現場詢答我們來看一段影片這是拜登總統2024年3月8號剛發表完的在美國國會的國情咨文沒有聲音沒關係他意思是God bless you allGod bless America\n他報告完之後他就轉身向主席致意然後離開這是美國的制度下一頁\n所以說美國的國情咨文進行的程序是總統進入一場大廳所有人起立鼓掌介紹總統正式發表國情咨文總統愛講多久就講多久上次拜登講了快兩個小時總統發表完之後隨即離開兩黨的議員不論你的政治觀點如何的分歧不會干預報告的進行不會對總統進行質問或提問不會對國情咨文進行後續的討論或表決\n美國制度在這裡我們來看法國制度就是馬克宏總統在法國的國會不好意思我不會法文我沒有辦法翻譯喔他也是報告完之後接受法國國會議員的鼓勵起立鼓掌他離開好下一頁所以法國一憲法法國憲法第18條第二項\n避免對內閣制或總統制產生混淆總統是不對國會負責\n所以呢總統進行國會演說之後後續的法國的國會議員確實可以進行辯論或表決但是他必須在總統離場之後這是法國的雙首長制、半總統制也是中華民國憲法1997年修憲之後我們援引的憲政經驗我們適用最多是法國案例所以說就國際經驗我們來看\n周恩蕾老師我從年輕時代我一再說\n臺灣中華民國的憲法如何從定定為現在的\n我們來看看在Bible上面怎麼寫\n周外來老師針對立法委員邀請總統來國情報告可不可以詢答呢周外來老師說僅賦予立法院聽取總統國情報告的權利但不得就政府施政向其提供建言周外來老師的這本書是在第155頁嗎155頁我希望周外來老師\n永遠是我們學習擷取意識經驗的周萬來老師我甚至覺得您是周萬能秘書長\n但是萬能秘書長不要基於政黨的壓力而成為萬萬不能我想您不會您絕對不會我對您尊重我也肯定下一頁那我再分享一下馬英九跟王金平那個時候2012年馬英九總統受邀到立法院國情報告的時候當時的總統府發言人范江太吉說\n如果堅持要加入詢答．將創下憲政惡例嚴重破壞憲法規定這是2012年總統府馬英九的發言人范江太基先生所說的馬總統接受國會的質詢違反憲法\n我們再看看2015年王金平院長的時候他也是當時也邀請馬英九針對馬席會對不起不是邀請是國民黨主動馬總統說他要來國會報告王金平院長說質詢這違憲因為總統不是國會監督的對象王金平院長說的\n那我手上呢又拿到這是\n國民黨的智庫很專業我非常肯配國民黨的投入很多的資源讓學者專家做學術研究這個國政評論財團法人國政基金會所做的研究報告2008年針對要不要總統到國情報告的時候這是國民黨智庫的研究結論根據憲政主義的思考\n憲法並未賦予立法委員得質詢總統的權利這是總統的國會咨文國民黨智庫的意見2012年國政基金會的學者再次研究針對同一議題結論是什麼應從憲法規定做起以嚴肅的態度看待此事否則只會變成\n國會笑話也會變成國際笑話這是國民黨的之苦所以我今天花了這些時間下一頁好回到前面一頁您可以統合規定嗎秘書長統合回應嗎現在的憲法沒有改就依現在的憲法捍衛憲法精神不論誰執政都當如此\n謝謝吳委員我簡單的大概區分當然你有手中我有職權行使法裡面的這一張吧這裡面要區分兩個做報告職權行使法不能逾越憲法的精神跟規定喔我剛剛也舉我那書裡面嘛我要先釐清兩點第一個就是說\n這個憲法遵修條文裡面的這個第4條第3項裡面這樣的一個規定裡面來\n時間寶貴我再兩分鐘跟你報告就是說這個第四條第三項嘛所以這一個在前面剛才引述我在第一頁的那一本書的前言有說明我不是在前言我是用你具體的QA是是是就是第二章這一本在第二章之一的這個書裡面所寫的第一個狀況就是說這一個憲法徵修條文這樣改了以後\n立法院對於國情報告他有決定權\n當然我們可以決定要不要邀請總統來決定權在立法院各黨團要不要邀請總統來所以憲政史上也曾經發生過2012年是由民進黨臺聯親民黨共同提案邀請馬英九總統來陳水扁總統來也曾經發生過只有國民黨單獨提案都有所以立法委員對於邀請總統的諮詢權是在於邀請要不要來的這個決定權而不是詢答的決定權\n這個詢答的部分因為剛才吳委員有提到我155頁裡面所寫的那155頁所寫的這個是我剛才跟歐委員也在做我自己的個人的說法因為這裡面的民主自由的責任正是我們在向往徵求台灣的第三條地方向第一條的問題\n所以跟總統之間我希望我們就這個事情就回到憲法精神時代在進步如果台灣針對制度要精進我們就循修憲的程序否則依循我們的憲法該怎麼做就怎麼做我要提出沉重的嚴肅的呼籲也謝謝我第二個主題完全沒有時間問下次希望能夠再安排相關的報告\n謝謝秘書長 謝謝主席 謝謝大家\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:23.781 --> 00:24.201\n首頁好嗎?\n\n00:37.150 --> 00:53.257\n好謝謝主席來：秘書長您主動站上來本來想說讓你歇息一下喝口水謝謝主席謝謝與會所有的同仁那我在發言前也跟主席這個請求今天您非常的體恤大家因為這個議題非常重要你給委員充分發言的時間剛剛黃國昌總召用了17分鐘羅志強委員用了13分鐘我會努力的你給我15分鐘就好謝謝\n\n01:05.202 --> 01:25.709\n尊重憲法依法行政是不論誰執政都應當共同捍衛的我今天就教於周秘書長其實我習慣叫您周老師我從年輕的時候就拜讀您很多的專書專文所以同一套憲法不論誰執政都要共同捍衛對我拿錯了哈這裡\n\n01:27.350 --> 01:43.595\n就是這套憲法我要先講前提不論誰執政我們要共同捍衛同樣一套憲法那就今天的兩個主題總統國情報告的安排也好或者是上週發生在立法院立委質詢權\n\n01:45.395 --> 01:52.781\n首先我也要回應一下我剛剛聽到羅志強委員說他會被民進黨氣死其實他不知道他執行完網路上刷一片\n\n02:16.250 --> 02:18.145\n社會會被羅志強笑死\n\n02:19.517 --> 02:45.964\n羅志祥委員舉賴清德副總統可以參加大學生的論壇那現場接受女大學生的提問那為什麼來立法院不行羅志祥委員指說蔡英文總統每天有必要公開行程的話有媒體現場採訪她她也樂意來回應所以女記者都可以提問為什麼立法委員不行\n\n02:47.813 --> 03:05.701\n我們是立法委員在這個憲法之下我們今天立法院在會期期間每一天依序來安排會議開燈開冷氣開電腦開設備花了民脂民膏這麼多的人民公帑我們就應當依據憲法\n\n03:07.822 --> 03:18.012\n跟議事規則來行使我們的職權這是立法委員的職權拿女記者的提問拿學生對於\n\n03:19.847 --> 03:47.803\n報告主席請維護一下秩序不要干擾本席的發言拿這樣的比喻我覺得非常的適當非常的適當我也要回應剛剛翁曉琳委員說時代在變我們要思考制度要不要改變我同意確實如此但是時代在變修法有法律修法的程序修憲有依規修憲的程序\n\n03:48.823 --> 04:07.899\n所以時代在變．台灣的制度是不是要改變．可以來討論．如果對於現行憲法的規定．有所認為要精進．我們就循修憲的程序．我也支持．秘書長這樣沒有錯嗎．對不對．所以我要說．我今天在這裡要打假也要打詐喔．\n\n04:09.648 --> 04:35.294\n賴清德總統沒有不來國會國情報告他甚至是主動宣示他樂意來他主動他樂意所以賴清德未來的總統沒有不來立法院國情報告我要打假打詐第二個來報告怎麼進行中華民國的總統就要依據中華民國的憲法\n\n04:37.679 --> 04:58.567\n這麼簡單如果說憲法的規定要調整那就修憲之後未來的總統依修憲之後來另一套國情報告的程序大家可以接受但是現行的憲法就是如此所以中華民國的憲法依憲形式如果立法委員就把它說為是不尊重國會這大有問題不能這樣\n\n05:03.131 --> 05:03.211\n下一頁\n\n05:17.931 --> 05:40.963\n我就不贅述喔國民黨民眾黨有一些提案不僅違憲更移效國際也就是要把總統就目前的憲法規範來立法院是報告而不是詢答更不是急問急答更不是常態化依現行的法制就是違憲會移效國際下一頁\n\n05:43.976 --> 06:00.643\n在野黨的委員都喜歡比美國驚豔我們來看美國驚豔美國的憲法第二條第三項說總統應經常向國會報告聯邦的施政並向國會提出他認為必要跟適當的措施好從1790年華盛頓總統開始本人赴國會報告傑弗遜總統1801年改為書面向國會報告1913年威爾遜總統恢復是本人到國會報告\n\n06:13.428 --> 06:37.323\n其間從1913年到現在的2024年總統美國總統到國會發表國情咨文有88次而當中呢尼克森1973年卡特1981年都是用書面的國情咨文而拜登總統在今年剛剛完成的國情報告2024年的3月8號他是本人所以美國的憲法的經驗是\n\n06:40.084 --> 07:07.091\n總統沒有強制要到場但是總統他判斷他要去他樂意去而不只本人他可以書面為之更重要的是美國沒有現場詢答我們來看一段影片這是拜登總統2024年3月8號剛發表完的在美國國會的國情咨文沒有聲音沒關係他意思是GodblessyouallGodblessAmerica\n\n07:08.390 --> 07:17.665\n他報告完之後他就轉身向主席致意然後離開這是美國的制度下一頁\n\n07:19.318 --> 07:27.820\n所以說美國的國情咨文進行的程序是總統進入一場大廳所有人起立鼓掌介紹總統正式發表國情咨文總統愛講多久就講多久上次拜登講了快兩個小時總統發表完之後隨即離開兩黨的議員不論你的政治觀點如何的分歧不會干預報告的進行不會對總統進行質問或提問不會對國情咨文進行後續的討論或表決\n\n07:46.886 --> 08:12.485\n美國制度在這裡我們來看法國制度就是馬克宏總統在法國的國會不好意思我不會法文我沒有辦法翻譯喔他也是報告完之後接受法國國會議員的鼓勵起立鼓掌他離開好下一頁所以法國一憲法法國憲法第18條第二項\n\n08:15.421 --> 08:18.694\n避免對內閣制或總統制產生混淆總統是不對國會負責\n\n08:20.720 --> 08:46.010\n所以呢總統進行國會演說之後後續的法國的國會議員確實可以進行辯論或表決但是他必須在總統離場之後這是法國的雙首長制、半總統制也是中華民國憲法1997年修憲之後我們援引的憲政經驗我們適用最多是法國案例所以說就國際經驗我們來看\n\n08:48.814 --> 08:51.156\n周恩蕾老師我從年輕時代我一再說\n\n09:06.943 --> 09:07.924\n臺灣中華民國的憲法如何從定定為現在的\n\n09:26.852 --> 09:27.992\n我們來看看在Bible上面怎麼寫\n\n09:53.021 --> 10:15.015\n周外來老師針對立法委員邀請總統來國情報告可不可以詢答呢周外來老師說僅賦予立法院聽取總統國情報告的權利但不得就政府施政向其提供建言周外來老師的這本書是在第155頁嗎155頁我希望周外來老師\n\n10:22.355 --> 10:30.146\n永遠是我們學習擷取意識經驗的周萬來老師我甚至覺得您是周萬能秘書長\n\n10:31.516 --> 10:59.311\n但是萬能秘書長不要基於政黨的壓力而成為萬萬不能我想您不會您絕對不會我對您尊重我也肯定下一頁那我再分享一下馬英九跟王金平那個時候2012年馬英九總統受邀到立法院國情報告的時候當時的總統府發言人范江太吉說\n\n11:00.788 --> 11:15.259\n如果堅持要加入詢答．將創下憲政惡例嚴重破壞憲法規定這是2012年總統府馬英九的發言人范江太基先生所說的馬總統接受國會的質詢違反憲法\n\n11:18.641 --> 11:40.055\n我們再看看2015年王金平院長的時候他也是當時也邀請馬英九針對馬席會對不起不是邀請是國民黨主動馬總統說他要來國會報告王金平院長說質詢這違憲因為總統不是國會監督的對象王金平院長說的\n\n11:41.596 --> 11:42.017\n那我手上呢又拿到這是\n\n11:56.875 --> 12:21.537\n國民黨的智庫很專業我非常肯配國民黨的投入很多的資源讓學者專家做學術研究這個國政評論財團法人國政基金會所做的研究報告2008年針對要不要總統到國情報告的時候這是國民黨智庫的研究結論根據憲政主義的思考\n\n12:22.237 --> 12:44.099\n憲法並未賦予立法委員得質詢總統的權利這是總統的國會咨文國民黨智庫的意見2012年國政基金會的學者再次研究針對同一議題結論是什麼應從憲法規定做起以嚴肅的態度看待此事否則只會變成\n\n12:46.321 --> 13:09.573\n國會笑話也會變成國際笑話這是國民黨的之苦所以我今天花了這些時間下一頁好回到前面一頁您可以統合規定嗎秘書長統合回應嗎現在的憲法沒有改就依現在的憲法捍衛憲法精神不論誰執政都當如此\n\n13:12.239 --> 13:33.456\n謝謝吳委員我簡單的大概區分當然你有手中我有職權行使法裡面的這一張吧這裡面要區分兩個做報告職權行使法不能逾越憲法的精神跟規定喔我剛剛也舉我那書裡面嘛我要先釐清兩點第一個就是說\n\n13:35.541 --> 13:38.387\n這個憲法遵修條文裡面的這個第4條第3項裡面這樣的一個規定裡面來\n\n13:45.635 --> 14:11.123\n時間寶貴我再兩分鐘跟你報告就是說這個第四條第三項嘛所以這一個在前面剛才引述我在第一頁的那一本書的前言有說明我不是在前言我是用你具體的QA是是是就是第二章這一本在第二章之一的這個書裡面所寫的第一個狀況就是說這一個憲法徵修條文這樣改了以後\n\n14:12.003 --> 14:12.403\n立法院對於國情報告他有決定權\n\n14:28.434 --> 14:57.044\n當然我們可以決定要不要邀請總統來決定權在立法院各黨團要不要邀請總統來所以憲政史上也曾經發生過2012年是由民進黨臺聯親民黨共同提案邀請馬英九總統來陳水扁總統來也曾經發生過只有國民黨單獨提案都有所以立法委員對於邀請總統的諮詢權是在於邀請要不要來的這個決定權而不是詢答的決定權\n\n14:59.129 --> 15:18.541\n這個詢答的部分因為剛才吳委員有提到我155頁裡面所寫的那155頁所寫的這個是我剛才跟歐委員也在做我自己的個人的說法因為這裡面的民主自由的責任正是我們在向往徵求台灣的第三條地方向第一條的問題\n\n15:19.621 --> 15:24.825\n所以跟總統之間我希望我們就這個事情就回到憲法精神時代在進步如果台灣針對制度要精進我們就循修憲的程序否則依循我們的憲法該怎麼做就怎麼做我要提出沉重的嚴肅的呼籲也謝謝我第二個主題完全沒有時間問下次希望能夠再安排相關的報告\n\n15:47.799 --> 15:47.960\n謝謝秘書長謝謝主席謝謝大家\n\n","segments":[{"start":23.781,"end":24.201,"text":"首頁好嗎?"},{"start":37.15,"end":53.257,"text":"好 謝謝主席來：秘書長您主動站上來本來想說讓你歇息一下喝口水謝謝主席謝謝與會所有的同仁那我在發言前也跟主席這個請求今天您非常的體恤大家因為這個議題非常重要你給委員充分發言的時間剛剛黃國昌總召用了17分鐘羅志強委員用了13分鐘我會努力的你給我15分鐘就好謝謝"},{"start":65.202,"end":85.709,"text":"尊重憲法依法行政是不論誰執政都應當共同捍衛的我今天就教於周秘書長其實我習慣叫您周老師我從年輕的時候就拜讀您很多的專書專文所以同一套憲法不論誰執政都要共同捍衛對我拿錯了哈這裡"},{"start":87.35,"end":103.595,"text":"就是這套憲法我要先講前提不論誰執政我們要共同捍衛同樣一套憲法那就今天的兩個主題總統國情報告的安排也好或者是上週發生在立法院立委質詢權"},{"start":105.395,"end":112.781,"text":"首先我也要回應一下我剛剛聽到羅志強委員說他會被民進黨氣死其實他不知道他執行完網路上刷一片"},{"start":136.25,"end":138.145,"text":"社會會被羅志強笑死"},{"start":139.517,"end":165.964,"text":"羅志祥委員舉賴清德副總統可以參加大學生的論壇那現場接受女大學生的提問那為什麼來立法院不行羅志祥委員指說蔡英文總統每天有必要公開行程的話有媒體現場採訪她她也樂意來回應所以女記者都可以提問為什麼立法委員不行"},{"start":167.813,"end":185.701,"text":"我們是立法委員在這個憲法之下我們今天立法院在會期期間每一天依序來安排會議開燈開冷氣開電腦開設備花了民脂民膏這麼多的人民公帑我們就應當依據憲法"},{"start":187.822,"end":198.012,"text":"跟議事規則來行使我們的職權這是立法委員的職權拿女記者的提問拿學生對於"},{"start":199.847,"end":227.803,"text":"報告主席請維護一下秩序不要干擾本席的發言拿這樣的比喻我覺得非常的適當非常的適當我也要回應剛剛翁曉琳委員說時代在變我們要思考制度要不要改變我同意確實如此但是時代在變修法有法律修法的程序修憲有依規修憲的程序"},{"start":228.823,"end":247.899,"text":"所以時代在變．台灣的制度是不是要改變．可以來討論．如果對於現行憲法的規定．有所認為要精進．我們就循修憲的程序．我也支持．秘書長這樣沒有錯嗎．對不對．所以我要說．我今天在這裡要打假也要打詐喔．"},{"start":249.648,"end":275.294,"text":"賴清德總統沒有不來國會國情報告他甚至是主動宣示他樂意來他主動他樂意所以賴清德未來的總統沒有不來立法院國情報告我要打假打詐第二個來報告怎麼進行中華民國的總統就要依據中華民國的憲法"},{"start":277.679,"end":298.567,"text":"這麼簡單如果說憲法的規定要調整那就修憲之後未來的總統依修憲之後來另一套國情報告的程序大家可以接受但是現行的憲法就是如此所以中華民國的憲法依憲形式如果立法委員就把它說為是不尊重國會這大有問題不能這樣"},{"start":303.131,"end":303.211,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":317.931,"end":340.963,"text":"我就不贅述喔國民黨民眾黨有一些提案不僅違憲更移效國際也就是要把總統就目前的憲法規範來立法院是報告而不是詢答更不是急問急答更不是常態化依現行的法制就是違憲會移效國際下一頁"},{"start":343.976,"end":360.643,"text":"在野黨的委員都喜歡比美國驚豔我們來看美國驚豔美國的憲法第二條第三項說總統應經常向國會報告聯邦的施政並向國會提出他認為必要跟適當的措施好從1790年華盛頓總統開始本人赴國會報告傑弗遜總統1801年改為書面向國會報告1913年威爾遜總統恢復是本人到國會報告"},{"start":373.428,"end":397.323,"text":"其間從1913年到現在的2024年總統美國總統到國會發表國情咨文有88次而當中呢尼克森1973年卡特1981年都是用書面的國情咨文而拜登總統在今年剛剛完成的國情報告2024年的3月8號他是本人所以美國的憲法的經驗是"},{"start":400.084,"end":427.091,"text":"總統沒有強制要到場但是總統他判斷他要去他樂意去而不只本人他可以書面為之更重要的是美國沒有現場詢答我們來看一段影片這是拜登總統2024年3月8號剛發表完的在美國國會的國情咨文沒有聲音沒關係他意思是God bless you allGod bless America"},{"start":428.39,"end":437.665,"text":"他報告完之後他就轉身向主席致意然後離開這是美國的制度下一頁"},{"start":439.318,"end":447.82,"text":"所以說美國的國情咨文進行的程序是總統進入一場大廳所有人起立鼓掌介紹總統正式發表國情咨文總統愛講多久就講多久上次拜登講了快兩個小時總統發表完之後隨即離開兩黨的議員不論你的政治觀點如何的分歧不會干預報告的進行不會對總統進行質問或提問不會對國情咨文進行後續的討論或表決"},{"start":466.886,"end":492.485,"text":"美國制度在這裡我們來看法國制度就是馬克宏總統在法國的國會不好意思我不會法文我沒有辦法翻譯喔他也是報告完之後接受法國國會議員的鼓勵起立鼓掌他離開好下一頁所以法國一憲法法國憲法第18條第二項"},{"start":495.421,"end":498.694,"text":"避免對內閣制或總統制產生混淆總統是不對國會負責"},{"start":500.72,"end":526.01,"text":"所以呢總統進行國會演說之後後續的法國的國會議員確實可以進行辯論或表決但是他必須在總統離場之後這是法國的雙首長制、半總統制也是中華民國憲法1997年修憲之後我們援引的憲政經驗我們適用最多是法國案例所以說就國際經驗我們來看"},{"start":528.814,"end":531.156,"text":"周恩蕾老師我從年輕時代我一再說"},{"start":546.943,"end":547.924,"text":"臺灣中華民國的憲法如何從定定為現在的"},{"start":566.852,"end":567.992,"text":"我們來看看在Bible上面怎麼寫"},{"start":593.021,"end":615.015,"text":"周外來老師針對立法委員邀請總統來國情報告可不可以詢答呢周外來老師說僅賦予立法院聽取總統國情報告的權利但不得就政府施政向其提供建言周外來老師的這本書是在第155頁嗎155頁我希望周外來老師"},{"start":622.355,"end":630.146,"text":"永遠是我們學習擷取意識經驗的周萬來老師我甚至覺得您是周萬能秘書長"},{"start":631.516,"end":659.311,"text":"但是萬能秘書長不要基於政黨的壓力而成為萬萬不能我想您不會您絕對不會我對您尊重我也肯定下一頁那我再分享一下馬英九跟王金平那個時候2012年馬英九總統受邀到立法院國情報告的時候當時的總統府發言人范江太吉說"},{"start":660.788,"end":675.259,"text":"如果堅持要加入詢答．將創下憲政惡例嚴重破壞憲法規定這是2012年總統府馬英九的發言人范江太基先生所說的馬總統接受國會的質詢違反憲法"},{"start":678.641,"end":700.055,"text":"我們再看看2015年王金平院長的時候他也是當時也邀請馬英九針對馬席會對不起不是邀請是國民黨主動馬總統說他要來國會報告王金平院長說質詢這違憲因為總統不是國會監督的對象王金平院長說的"},{"start":701.596,"end":702.017,"text":"那我手上呢又拿到這是"},{"start":716.875,"end":741.537,"text":"國民黨的智庫很專業我非常肯配國民黨的投入很多的資源讓學者專家做學術研究這個國政評論財團法人國政基金會所做的研究報告2008年針對要不要總統到國情報告的時候這是國民黨智庫的研究結論根據憲政主義的思考"},{"start":742.237,"end":764.099,"text":"憲法並未賦予立法委員得質詢總統的權利這是總統的國會咨文國民黨智庫的意見2012年國政基金會的學者再次研究針對同一議題結論是什麼應從憲法規定做起以嚴肅的態度看待此事否則只會變成"},{"start":766.321,"end":789.573,"text":"國會笑話也會變成國際笑話這是國民黨的之苦所以我今天花了這些時間下一頁好回到前面一頁您可以統合規定嗎秘書長統合回應嗎現在的憲法沒有改就依現在的憲法捍衛憲法精神不論誰執政都當如此"},{"start":792.239,"end":813.456,"text":"謝謝吳委員我簡單的大概區分當然你有手中我有職權行使法裡面的這一張吧這裡面要區分兩個做報告職權行使法不能逾越憲法的精神跟規定喔我剛剛也舉我那書裡面嘛我要先釐清兩點第一個就是說"},{"start":815.541,"end":818.387,"text":"這個憲法遵修條文裡面的這個第4條第3項裡面這樣的一個規定裡面來"},{"start":825.635,"end":851.123,"text":"時間寶貴我再兩分鐘跟你報告就是說這個第四條第三項嘛所以這一個在前面剛才引述我在第一頁的那一本書的前言有說明我不是在前言我是用你具體的QA是是是就是第二章這一本在第二章之一的這個書裡面所寫的第一個狀況就是說這一個憲法徵修條文這樣改了以後"},{"start":852.003,"end":852.403,"text":"立法院對於國情報告他有決定權"},{"start":868.434,"end":897.044,"text":"當然我們可以決定要不要邀請總統來決定權在立法院各黨團要不要邀請總統來所以憲政史上也曾經發生過2012年是由民進黨臺聯親民黨共同提案邀請馬英九總統來陳水扁總統來也曾經發生過只有國民黨單獨提案都有所以立法委員對於邀請總統的諮詢權是在於邀請要不要來的這個決定權而不是詢答的決定權"},{"start":899.129,"end":918.541,"text":"這個詢答的部分因為剛才吳委員有提到我155頁裡面所寫的那155頁所寫的這個是我剛才跟歐委員也在做我自己的個人的說法因為這裡面的民主自由的責任正是我們在向往徵求台灣的第三條地方向第一條的問題"},{"start":919.621,"end":924.825,"text":"所以跟總統之間我希望我們就這個事情就回到憲法精神時代在進步如果台灣針對制度要精進我們就循修憲的程序否則依循我們的憲法該怎麼做就怎麼做我要提出沉重的嚴肅的呼籲也謝謝我第二個主題完全沒有時間問下次希望能夠再安排相關的報告"},{"start":947.799,"end":947.96,"text":"謝謝秘書長 謝謝主席 謝謝大家"}]}}}}