{"id":150238,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150238","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc30523cea57f807957bda469dd78c507e1b3ff8ba9b0039caa7a655ef2657418d39405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:07:57 - 11:26:26","影片長度":"00:18:29","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、農業部、國家發展委員會、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「加速推動再生能源對國土環境之影響及環境影響評估認定標準修訂進度」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月20日及21日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-7"},"date":"2024-03-21","duration":1109,"end_time":"2024-03-21T11:26:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-21T11:07:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":663,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時8分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我先從哪裡講起好，我先講有一些陳年舊案在做過環評或是環現差以後，10年、20年都沒有完成開發，期間可能會有業者倒閉轉手、財務危機遲遲沒有動工，也可能大家都覺得取得的開發證很難能可貴，所以自己沒有辦法再開發的話都會轉賣出去、轉手他人。所以很多陳年舊案捲土重來，像攔水建壩的世豐水力電廠，大家都知道它在1999年就做完兩階段的環評報告了，可是3年後的2002年還沒有動工，它是到2004年才動工，它動工的時候因為超過3年沒有實施開發行為而被處分，被要求超過3年要做環現差。結果它一直拖到2007年才做環現差，然後它也沒有開發，動工一下就直接丟著，之後到了2019年，從1999到2019年經過20年，這塊執照還放著，然後要再轉賣給大財團正崴集團。在這種狀況裡面，他們現在主張我們不需要做環評，我們也不需要做環現差，因為2007年做過了。2007年到現在，天啊！已經經過13年了，而你們部裡面仍然認為這個應該也不用再做環現差，他們就可以繼續開發了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：跟林委員報告，以現有的辦法事實上是10年必須要完成開發，假如10年沒有動作，它是可以再展延一次，好像是5年，但是陳年的案子……"],["林委員淑芬：現在我不是在跟你講10年展延的問題，我是講環評法第十六條之一的立法精神，就是三年，三年一次的環境變動非常的大，以世豐水力電廠為例，在豐坪溪流域，2007年做了環現差，在2007年之後豐坪溪歷經颱風侵襲、地震擾動，整個地區包括山崩、地滑、大規模的潛勢崩塌區統統都跑出來，所以大家都認為你怎麼會只看2007年，2007年之後還有這麼多的問題，你們都不用再去做環境衝擊的評估？","人家就幫你們研究了，地球公民基金會幫你們做了研究，世豐電力花蓮豐坪溪流域的水文狀況，他們發現它的旬流量，即每十天為一旬的平均流量，跟環評時期、跟環現差時期在統計上有顯著的差異，代表在氣候變遷之下豐坪溪的流量變化越來越極端，而且在一年之中，可能就有三分之一的時間無法滿足發電和生態基流量的需求，所以它的環境變化是相當相當大，而你們現在仍然主張不需要再去檢視環境的差異，就可以直接動工，免做環現差，2007年做過了就有免死金牌了，這樣子就要准了，只因為它是正崴集團接手了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：跟林委員報告，針對這些陳年老案，因為我涉入比較不深……"],["林委員淑芬：我剛剛講的有沒有道理啊！"],["薛部長富盛：給我時間，我們來瞭解一下好不好？然後……"],["林委員淑芬：我剛剛講的有沒有道理啊！第十六條之一最核心的立法精神就是我們認為環境的變異，在極端氣候之下，三年檢視一次啊！這個是很重要的，我們希望政府不要看到財團就轉向，或者是手就軟了。"],["薛部長富盛：不會，我們依法行政。"],["林委員淑芬：我再請教你，今天大家討論的是一定規模在環境敏感區裡面你們要求要做環評，但我現在要問你，你知道現在的再生能源產業或是光電產業其實也有一些環境檢視的機制存在，現在有什麼樣的環境檢視機制，你知道嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：你是說環境部的部分，還是包括……"],["林委員淑芬：全部啦！再生能源現有的機制就有一個環境檢核。"],["薛部長富盛：以目前經濟部能源署應該有一個標準，我剛剛有稍微提到，一定公升有另外……"],["林委員淑芬：不是，部長，你一定要知道，我沒有問能源署，因為他主辦的，所以他當然知道。現在我跟你講為什麼能源署有一個環境檢核，不只是環境，還有環境和社會檢核，為什麼作為環境目的事業主管機關的環境部部長你們不知道呢？為什麼這個東西你需要知道？因為我們都知道特別是在陸域裡面的光電產業跟我們的生活區域接近度很高，所以引起社區的反彈也很大，我們都知道環評沒有辦法在光電計畫選址前實質處理生態議題，通常在選址以前、要設置以前沒有辦法處理，我們就只能對已經選定好了、要設置了，你才會環評嘛，可是選址前的生態議題，他也沒有辦法處理，環評也沒有辦法處理同一個地區到底要不要總量管制，它已經累積的案場和面積效應會達到什麼樣的環境衝擊，也沒有辦法處理，對吧？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上我在開始的簡報有提到，經濟部能源署事實上有兩個審定原則，包括剛剛林委員講太陽光電環境與社會檢核機制，這個是第一個；第二個是設置地面……"],["林委員淑芬：你照稿唸，誰不會？那我問你，在環社檢定，整個環境與社會的檢核機制是用在哪幾種光電場？"],["薛部長富盛：漁電共生。"],["林委員淑芬：漁電共生現在占多少比例？"],["薛部長富盛：是不是可以請……"],["林委員淑芬：你也不知道。我是要告訴你，我必須要講光電具有親近社區的特質，而我們不是已經就要設立在這裡了，我們再去吵架，我們也不要無止盡的，七股設立了多大的面積，然後大家再來抗爭也不是解決之道。所以大家在講這個環社檢核你有沒有瞭解，跟你的業務有沒有相關？環境跟社會檢核嘛。"],["薛部長富盛：這跟環境一定有相關。"],["林委員淑芬：你看啊，就在這裡啊！它檢核什麼東西？環社檢核，他們透過圖資要先去辨識，這不是在業者要申請的時候去處理，而是政府既然要發展綠能，我們反對不安全的核電，要發展綠能，就要更有責任一點，這個責任就是要去檢視全國的土地，要去嚴選較沒有生態疑慮的，走上面這一條路徑，它就可以先做了；稍微有生態疑慮的就要進一步檢核，其檢核的基礎可能事涉到你要去把圖資、還有所有相關行政資訊都調出來，有沒有地質敏感、生態圖資是什麼、災害減緩的圖資是什麼，這個是不是都是環境衝擊的評估？是不是都是環境部的業務？"],["薛部長富盛：是啊！所以我相信經濟部應該有按照這些規劃來做。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你，為什麼經濟部在運作現在的環社檢核沒有環境部的角色？"],["薛部長富盛：因為在整個方案上主責單位是經濟部能源署。"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼沒有目的事業主管機關進來在環境上把關，讓能源署自己球員兼裁判，自己去判定地質敏感、生態圖資、災害減緩嗎？接下來進行現場勘查跟生態情報圖繪製的時候，你看我們的圖，還需要檢核現況跟圖資比對，必須要做生物分布與自然環境狀態，還需要去看這個地方的區域與周邊生態系服務功能確認，還有鳥類熱點等等，這些目的事業主管機關不都是環境部嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不是，目的事業主管機關在這一塊是經濟部……"],["林委員淑芬：再生能源是經濟部，它要做環社檢核，一直都沒有環境的目的事業主管機關──環境部你們的角色。"],["薛部長富盛：所以未來或許經濟部可以跟環境部來討論……"],["林委員淑芬：檢核到最後要幹什麼，你知道嗎？要議題辨認這個區域到底是可以做綠能光電的優先區，還是要做為一個緩衝區，還是要做迴避區，大家就在做這個，為什麼要做這個？是因為我們一開始就講了，環評沒有辦法解決選址前實質要去處理生態的問題，這個址到底合不合適；第二個，也沒辦法處理同一地區的累積效應問題。但是強度不要一下子就談到環評，因為在環評的設計裡面也是門檻很高的啦！現在濕地還要再綁2MW，未來大面積要做環評的，你講了日本的4KW的例子，門檻也都很高，幾乎沒有幾個案場需要做啦！但是這麼高的門檻，大部分的案場都不用做，可以解決我們現在對光電場設置的很多衝突嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上林委員假如覺得經濟部在這一塊是球員兼裁判，是不是它可以把……"],["林委員淑芬：我沒有問你這個，我現在問的是部長，現在進入環評的門檻訂得這麼高，可以解決現在設置光電案場附近社區居民跟設置業者這樣的衝突嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：這個部分，環評只是任何一個開發行為中的一個步驟，它也不是環評過了大概什麼都過了，其他的不用去做……"],["林委員淑芬：你講這個，你把門檻訂那麼高，可能90%的案場都不會跑到環評程序，搞不好95%的案場都不會跑進去環評程序，我現在問你的是，這樣子你覺得妥當嗎？所以我們在講以現在在運作的環社檢核為例，它為什麼優先選漁電型的光電去試辦，你覺得呢？"],["薛部長富盛：因為可以善用，除了漁電可以共生，對農業部、漁民事實上也有正面，然後又可以發展綠能，我覺得很好啊！"],["林委員淑芬：對嘛！所以撿最便宜的，我講最直接的，因為養魚，它的遮蔽率40的狀況裡面是很容易繼續養的，產業跟光電是可以共同共存的嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：共存，是啊！"],["林委員淑芬：如果把這樣的檢核機制放到營電型的，或者是農地型的光電，不是養殖的喔！你覺得會是這個結果嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：假如有檢討的空間，我們就去檢討、去修正。"],["林委員淑芬：不是有沒有檢討的空間，我在問你啊！因為我們都知道現在的農地型有不利耕作地區，對不對？署長，不利耕作地區嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：對啊！"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，目前農地還沒有開放農電共生，現在是在試驗階段。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！就是不良耕作地區才可以設置嘛！"],["游署長振偉：目前是只有……"],["林委員淑芬：你們現在預計要開放營電型，人家說因為你設置案場的地方不夠，所以在找地嘛！相對於不利耕作地區，你就找農地、找可耕作的，我們都知道光電跟農業作物是要搶光的嘛！這有存在一種搶光的疑慮，所以一般要是做農有賺錢的不會去裝光電板嘛！所以到時候可能農作物賠錢的、不敷成本的就可能會想要啦！但想要的這些人的田其實是可利於耕作的，在這種有利於耕作的狀況裡面，事實上你要考慮到的是國家糧食主權的問題啊！","所以我今天要跟你們講的意思是，這個環境與社會檢核機制當然有它的作用存在，我們希望它法制化，署長、部長，把這一套環境與社會檢核機制法制化，相對於環評，它的強度可能沒那麼高，但是又可以解決我們在於光電營運的設置上，大家比較容易衝突的是因為資訊不公開、現有機制，如果我們進行環社檢核的時候，它必須先檢核整個區域到底適不適合設置，然後就有公民參與的機制進來，大家都一起來討論這個地區到底合不合適，合適的就讓它先做，有緩衝的也來考慮緩衝條件是什麼，不行的就真的是讓它變成迴避區，這樣子能避免未來它就要做了，你給它環評，大家就吵架。而且也可以去處理同一塊地區到底要設置多少面積、要累積多少發電量，對這個地方整體的環境衝擊、居住舒適度的衝擊、景觀的衝擊可以降到最低，所以我現在要講就是把環社檢核機制……"],["薛部長富盛：林委員的建議很好，對啊！很好，我們來努力。"],["林委員淑芬：那你覺得在你們那麼高的環評門檻跟不需要環評的中間把環社檢核機制放在哪裡？"],["薛部長富盛：可以啊！"],["林委員淑芬：可以放進來嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我們可以跟經濟部討論這一塊，假如有需要避免球員兼裁判，那就由環境部來站在第三方的立場，我認同啊！"],["林委員淑芬：是啊！現在能源局自己設置、自己環社檢核，球員兼裁判嘛！連環社檢核都沒有環境部的角色進去，它有能力做這一些嗎？生物分佈與自然環境狀況的檢視、生態系服務功能的確認、鳥類分布的現勘、圖資比對、生態環境跟區域的狀況、緩衝區的距離要多少，它有辦法知道嗎？它的專業也不在這裡，這是目的事業主管機關環境部的專業。"],["薛部長富盛：這一塊環境部也可以做一些貢獻。"],["林委員淑芬：我最後講一個結論，我們要擴大光電環評的認定，但你的草案標準還沒有出來，現在看到你的門檻是相對高的，所以我們今天講說相對於這個門檻那麼高，你要設置的那麼高，把環社檢核的機制入法，然後讓它強度沒那麼高，但是每一個案場要解決光電設置靠近、親近社區裡面的衝突問題。我在這裡要講的最後一個是，農業部門跟經濟部門要提出你們自己的農業部門的空間部門計畫，你的整體農業面積要怎麼樣才能達到國家糧食安全的自主，不是大家一直找地要設光電，然後你就一直在放出去，你們的農業部門空間計畫、再生能源的空間部門計畫要盤點出環境的資源、空間規劃的可行性，將這一些考量跟環評認定標準都放在一起，這才是完整的啦！"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員，也謝謝部長，請好好研議，衛環委員會會持續地監督。","接下來請廖偉翔委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":404,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-7","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王正旭","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"淑\", \"start\": 1096.078, \"end\": 1096.098, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"芬\", \"start\": 1096.098, \"end\": 1096.279, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1096.279, \"end\": 1096.299, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1096.299, \"end\": 1096.319, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1096.319, \"end\": 1096.339, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1096.339, \"end\": 1096.359, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1096.359, \"end\": 1096.379, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 1096.379, \"end\": 1096.399, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:14,073 --> 00:00:17,395\n謝謝主席,是不是請我們這個部長,好請薛部長\n\n2\n00:00:21,763 --> 00:00:29,479\n您好部長我先從哪裡講起好了我先講這個\n\n3\n00:00:31,570 --> 00:00:37,276\n有一些陳年舊案在環評或環線差做過以後10年和20年都沒有完成開發那期間可能會有業者倒閉轉手財務危機遲遲沒有動工那也可能大家都覺得取得的開發證很難能可貴\n\n4\n00:00:51,730 --> 00:01:14,407\n所以大概都在大概自己沒有辦法再開發的話都會轉賣出去轉手他人所以到時候就很多陳年舊案然後就捲土重來像藍水建霸的世豐水利電廠大家都知道就是說我們他在1999年就做完了兩階段的環評報告完成了\n\n5\n00:01:15,588 --> 00:01:40,124\n1999年可是他3年後的2002年他也沒有動工他是2004年才動工結果他動工的時候就因為超過3年沒有實施開發行為就被處分然後就要求說那你超過3年要做環線差結果呢他在拖他也一直拖拖到2007年才做環線差然後呢他也沒有開發\n\n6\n00:01:41,585 --> 00:01:47,889\n他就直接就丟著動工一下就丟著然後現在到2019年從1999到2019經過20年他這塊執照還放著然後轉賣給大財團政威集團在這種狀況裡面他們現在主張說我們不需要做環評我們也不需要做環線差因為2007年做過了2007年到現在天啊已經經過13年了\n\n7\n00:02:09,298 --> 00:02:19,046\n而你們屬裏面：你們不裏面：你們仍然認為說這個應該也是不用再做環線查然後直接就可以繼續他們就可以繼續開發了嗎?\n\n8\n00:02:21,534 --> 00:02:39,230\n給林委員報告以現有的辦法事實上是10年必須要完成開發那他只要10年沒有動作他是可以再延展延一次好像是現在我不再跟你講10年展延的問題我再講說環評法第16條之一的立法精神\n\n9\n00:02:39,870 --> 00:03:03,159\n就是說三年三年一次的環境變動非常的大以世豐水利電廠為例他在豐平溪流域他2007年做了環線查到2007年之後豐平溪歷經颱風侵襲地震擾動所以整個地區包括山崩地滑大規模的淺勢的崩塌區通通都跑出來\n\n10\n00:03:04,179 --> 00:03:07,782\n所以大家都認為說你怎麼會把2007年2007年之後還有這麼多的問題你們都不用再去做環境衝擊的評估那人家就幫你們研究了地球公民基金會幫你們做的研究是風電力花蓮風平溪流域的水溫狀況他們發現\n\n11\n00:03:24,918 --> 00:03:49,231\n他的巡流量就是每10天為一巡的平均流量跟環評時期跟環縣差時期他在統計上有顯著的差異他代表在氣候變遷之下而風平息的流量變化越來越極端而且在一年之中他可能就有三分之一的時間無法滿足發電和生態機流量的需求\n\n12\n00:03:50,131 --> 00:04:13,548\n所以它的環境變化是相當相當大的而你們現在仍然主張說不需要再去檢視環境的這個差異就可以直接動工免做環線差直接做過2007年做過了就免死金牌了然後就這樣子就要準了因為它是政威集團接手了嗎\n\n13\n00:04:15,947 --> 00:04:37,020\n林委員報告針對這些成年老案因為我涉入比較不深我剛剛講的有沒有道理我們來瞭解一下好不好我剛剛講的有沒有道理我們16條之一的最核心立法的精神就是我們認為環境的變異3年在極端氣候之下3年減是一次\n\n14\n00:04:38,301 --> 00:04:50,389\n這是很重要的我們希望不要政府看到財團就轉向或者是手就軟了我們以往來行政好不好我們以往來行政好那我就要請教你現在我們今天大家討論是說一定規模會在環境敏感區裡面你們要求要做環評但我現在要問你說你知道現在的再生能源產業或是光電產業其實也有一些環境檢視的機制在現在有什麼樣環境檢視的機制你知道嗎\n\n15\n00:05:09,041 --> 00:05:34,367\n你是說環境部的部分還是說包括全部的就講再生能源現有的機制就有一個環境檢核經濟部能源署這邊應該是以目前應該有一個我剛剛有稍微提到他們有一個標準然後移電工生也另外不是部長你一定要知道我沒有問那個能源局因為他主辦了所以他當然知道\n\n16\n00:05:34,927 --> 00:05:37,228\n現在我跟你講為什麼能源局有一個環境檢核環社不只是環境還環境和社會檢核為什麼作為環境目的事業主管機關的環境部部長你們不知道呢為什麼這個東西你需要知道\n\n17\n00:05:51,897 --> 00:05:56,920\n因為我們都知道特別是光電在陸地陸域裡面的光電產業跟我們的生活區域這個接近度很高所以引起了這個社區的反彈也很大所以我們都知道環評他沒有辦法在光電計畫選址前實質處理生態議題\n\n18\n00:06:18,473 --> 00:06:39,207\n通常在選址以前要設置以前沒有辦法處理我們就只說我已經選定好了值我要設置了你才會環評嘛可是選址前的議題生態議題他也沒有辦法處理那環評也沒有辦法處理說同一個地區他到底要不要總量管制他已經累積了暗場和面積效應會達到什麼樣的環境衝擊他也沒有辦法處理對吧\n\n19\n00:06:45,171 --> 00:07:05,945\n林委員報告我剛剛在事實上開始的時候檢報有提到嘛經濟部能源署事實上他有兩個這個審定原則包括剛剛林委員講太陽光電環境與社會檢核機制這個是第一個嘛第二個是設置你講的照稿念誰不會讓我問你他在這個環社的這個環社檢定整個環境與社會的檢核機制\n\n20\n00:07:13,010 --> 00:07:14,491\n他用在哪幾種光電廠?餘電共生餘電共生現在佔多少比例?你也不知道我是要告訴你\n\n21\n00:07:26,707 --> 00:07:46,312\n我必須要講光電具有親近社區的特質而我們不要說你已經就要設立在這裡了我們再去吵架我們也不要說沒有止境的一個旗鼓多大的面積設立了多大的面積然後大家在那裡抗爭也不得沒有辦法解決知道\n\n22\n00:07:47,052 --> 00:08:12,697\n所以大家在講說這個環社減核你有沒有瞭解跟你的業務有沒有相關環境跟社會減核嘛你看啊就在這裡啊他減核什麼東西環社減核他們要先去辨識他們透過圖資要先去他不是在業者要申請的時候去處理喔是政府\n\n23\n00:08:13,477 --> 00:08:24,604\n你既然要發展綠能然後我們反對不安全的核電要發展綠能那你就要更有責任一點這個責任就是你要去檢視全國的土地哪些要去嚴選是較沒有生態疑慮的走上面他就先可以做了然後稍微有生態疑慮的你就進一步去檢核\n\n24\n00:08:40,927 --> 00:08:46,672\n這個檢核的基礎可能就要試射到你要去投資還有所有相關行政資訊都調出來有沒有地質敏感他的生態投資是什麼他的災害減緩的投資是什麼這個是不是都環境衝擊的評估是不是都是環境部的業務那我現在問你為什麼為什麼經濟部在運作現在的環社檢核沒有環境部的角色\n\n25\n00:09:11,226 --> 00:09:26,291\n因為這個主責單位是經濟部能源署但為什麼沒有目的事業主管機關進來幫環境上把關然後能源局自己全員監裁判自己去判定地質敏感生態圖資災害減緩嗎然後接下來進行現場勘查跟生態情報圖繪製的時候你看我們的圖\n\n26\n00:09:35,169 --> 00:10:02,215\n還需要檢核現況跟圖資比對然後還必須要做生物分布自然的這個環境的狀態還需要去看這個地方的區域跟周邊生態系服務功能的確認還有鳥類熱點等等這個不是目的事業主管機關都是環境部嗎不是目的事業主管機關在這一塊是再生能源再生能源是經濟部他要做環社檢核\n\n27\n00:10:03,855 --> 00:10:16,589\n一直都沒有環境的目的事業主管機關環境部你們的角色所以未來或許經濟部可以跟環境部來討論檢核到最後要幹什麼你知道嗎要辨認議題辨認說這個區域到底是\n\n28\n00:10:21,754 --> 00:10:46,705\n優先可以做綠能光電的優先區還是要作為一個緩衝區還是要做迴避區大家就在做這個為什麼要做這個是因為我們一開始就講了環評沒有辦法解決選址前實質要去處理生態這個這個值到底合不合適第二個也沒辦法處理同一地區的累積效應的問題但是呢\n\n29\n00:10:50,137 --> 00:10:53,398\n我們就強度不要一下子就談到環評因為你環評的設計裡面也是門檻很高的啦你現在失地還要再綁一個2MW那你未來的大面積要做環評的你講的日本的4KW的那個也都是門檻很高幾乎沒有幾個暗場需要做啦\n\n30\n00:11:15,250 --> 00:11:30,460\n但是呢這麼高的門檻大部分的案場都不用做可以解決我們現在對光電廠設置的很多的衝突嗎事實上林委員你只要覺得經濟部在這一塊是求言兼採判\n\n31\n00:11:31,420 --> 00:11:34,063\n我沒有問你這個我現在問你是部長你現在進入環境的門檻定的這麼高可以解決現在設置光電暗場的這個社區居民跟業者設置這樣的衝突嗎\n\n32\n00:11:48,690 --> 00:12:01,438\n這個部分環評只是任何一個開發行為裡面一個步驟啦他也不是環評過了大概什麼都就...你講這個都是你連門檻盯那麼高連大可能90%的案場90%的案場都不需要都不會跑到環評程序搞不好95%的案場都不會跑進去環評的程序那我現在問你是說\n\n33\n00:12:14,085 --> 00:12:36,459\n這樣子你覺得妥當嗎?所以我們在講說以現在在運作的環社檢核為例他為什麼優先選漁電廠、漁電光、漁電型的光電去試辦你覺得呢?因為可以善用除了漁電可以共生嘛那對事實上對農業部移民這些事實上他有正面然後又可以發展\n\n34\n00:12:37,179 --> 00:13:02,494\n對嘛,所以減最便宜的我講最直接的因為養魚它的遮蔽率40的狀況裡面是很容易繼續養的產業跟光電是可以共同共存的嘛那如果把這樣的這個減額機制放到營電型的或者是農地型的光電不是養殖的喔你覺得會是這個結果嗎?\n\n35\n00:13:05,356 --> 00:13:24,834\n假如有檢討的空間那我們就去檢討去修正不是有沒有檢討的空間我在問你啊因為我們都知道現在的農地型的有就是不利耕作地區嘛對不對局長、署長不利耕作地區嘛\n\n36\n00:13:27,382 --> 00:13:54,727\n目前農地並還沒有開放農電共生那現在是在試驗階段對啦你就是不良耕作地區才可以設置嘛目前是只有那你們開放營電型現在要預計要開放營電型人家說因為你設置了暗場的地方不過所以在找地嘛所以找上了農地相對於不良不利耕作地區你就找農地找可耕作的嘛那我們都知道\n\n37\n00:13:55,507 --> 00:14:11,419\n光電跟我們的農業作物是要搶光的嘛這有存在一種搶光的疑慮所以一般來是做農的有賺錢的不會去倒光電板嘛但是呢我們知道到時候是誰可能撩錢的農作物撩錢的還是不付成本的\n\n38\n00:14:17,503 --> 00:14:42,977\n就可能會想要啦但想要的這些人其實可利於耕作的但是在這種有利於耕作的狀況裡面世界上你要考慮到的是國家的糧食主權的問題啊所以我今天我今天要跟你們講的意思是說那我們這個環境和社會檢核機制它當然有它的作用存在我們希望它法制化\n\n39\n00:14:43,957 --> 00:14:49,642\n署長、部長把這一套環境跟社會檢核機制法制化然後讓它相對於環評它的強度可能沒那麼高但是又可以解決我們在於這個光電營運的這個設置上大家比較容易衝突的說因為資訊不公開嘛現有的機制\n\n40\n00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:27,906\n那如果我們進行環社檢核的時候他必須先檢核整個區域的到底適不適合設置然後就有公民參與的機制進來大家都一起來討論我們這個地區到底合不合適合適的我們就讓他先做有緩衝的也來考慮要緩衝條件是什麼\n\n41\n00:15:36,289 --> 00:15:41,152\n然後不行的我們就把它真的是讓它變成迴避區這樣子避免未來我就要做了你給我環評大家就吵架然後也可以去處理同一塊地區到底我們要設置多少面積要累積多少的這個發電量對這個地方整體的衝擊環境衝擊居住的舒適度的衝擊景觀的衝擊可以降到最低\n\n42\n00:16:07,010 --> 00:16:22,641\n所以我現在要講就把這個環色減和機制那你覺得在你們那麼高的環評門檻跟不需要環評中間把環色減和的這個機制放在哪裡?\n\n43\n00:16:24,283 --> 00:16:26,045\n可以放進來嗎?是啊,現在能源局自己受環社檢核求援兼裁判嘛\n\n44\n00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:49,363\n連環社檢核都沒有環境部的角色進去他有能力做這一些嗎?生物分布、自然環境狀況的檢視生態系服務功能的確認水鳥、水鳥、鳥類分布的先刊然後他有辦法圖資比對這個生態環境跟這個區域的狀況緩衝區的距離要多少他有辦法知道嗎?\n\n45\n00:17:04,090 --> 00:17:11,053\n的專業也不在這裡這是目的事業主管機關環境部的專業所以我現在在講這裡就是說我最後講一個結論我們要擴大光電環評的認定但你的草案標準還沒有出來但現在看到你的門檻是相對高的所以我們今天講說相對於這個門檻那麼高你要設置的那麼高把這個\n\n46\n00:17:30,041 --> 00:17:30,102\n林淑芬議員\n\n47\n00:17:47,765 --> 00:18:04,732\n你們要提出你們自己的農業部門的空間部門計畫你的整體農業面積要怎麼樣才能達到國家糧食安全的自主不是大家一直找地要設光墊然後你就一直再放出去你的農業部門空間計畫再生能源的空間部門計劃要盤點出環境的資源還有空間規劃的可行性跟\n\n48\n00:18:15,077 --> 00:18:16,399\n這些考量跟環評這個認定標準一起都放在一起這才是完整的啦好謝謝林淑芬委員也謝謝部長請好好研議\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n14073\t17395\t謝謝主席,是不是請我們這個部長,好請薛部長\n21763\t29479\t您好部長我先從哪裡講起好了我先講這個\n31570\t37276\t有一些陳年舊案在環評或環線差做過以後10年和20年都沒有完成開發那期間可能會有業者倒閉轉手財務危機遲遲沒有動工那也可能大家都覺得取得的開發證很難能可貴\n51730\t74407\t所以大概都在大概自己沒有辦法再開發的話都會轉賣出去轉手他人所以到時候就很多陳年舊案然後就捲土重來像藍水建霸的世豐水利電廠大家都知道就是說我們他在1999年就做完了兩階段的環評報告完成了\n75588\t100124\t1999年可是他3年後的2002年他也沒有動工他是2004年才動工結果他動工的時候就因為超過3年沒有實施開發行為就被處分然後就要求說那你超過3年要做環線差結果呢他在拖他也一直拖拖到2007年才做環線差然後呢他也沒有開發\n101585\t107889\t他就直接就丟著動工一下就丟著然後現在到2019年從1999到2019經過20年他這塊執照還放著然後轉賣給大財團政威集團在這種狀況裡面他們現在主張說我們不需要做環評我們也不需要做環線差因為2007年做過了2007年到現在天啊已經經過13年了\n129298\t139046\t而你們屬裏面：你們不裏面：你們仍然認為說這個應該也是不用再做環線查然後直接就可以繼續他們就可以繼續開發了嗎?\n141534\t159230\t給林委員報告以現有的辦法事實上是10年必須要完成開發那他只要10年沒有動作他是可以再延展延一次好像是現在我不再跟你講10年展延的問題我再講說環評法第16條之一的立法精神\n159870\t183159\t就是說三年三年一次的環境變動非常的大以世豐水利電廠為例他在豐平溪流域他2007年做了環線查到2007年之後豐平溪歷經颱風侵襲地震擾動所以整個地區包括山崩地滑大規模的淺勢的崩塌區通通都跑出來\n184179\t187782\t所以大家都認為說你怎麼會把2007年2007年之後還有這麼多的問題你們都不用再去做環境衝擊的評估那人家就幫你們研究了地球公民基金會幫你們做的研究是風電力花蓮風平溪流域的水溫狀況他們發現\n204918\t229231\t他的巡流量就是每10天為一巡的平均流量跟環評時期跟環縣差時期他在統計上有顯著的差異他代表在氣候變遷之下而風平息的流量變化越來越極端而且在一年之中他可能就有三分之一的時間無法滿足發電和生態機流量的需求\n230131\t253548\t所以它的環境變化是相當相當大的而你們現在仍然主張說不需要再去檢視環境的這個差異就可以直接動工免做環線差直接做過2007年做過了就免死金牌了然後就這樣子就要準了因為它是政威集團接手了嗎\n255947\t277020\t林委員報告針對這些成年老案因為我涉入比較不深我剛剛講的有沒有道理我們來瞭解一下好不好我剛剛講的有沒有道理我們16條之一的最核心立法的精神就是我們認為環境的變異3年在極端氣候之下3年減是一次\n278301\t290389\t這是很重要的我們希望不要政府看到財團就轉向或者是手就軟了我們以往來行政好不好我們以往來行政好那我就要請教你現在我們今天大家討論是說一定規模會在環境敏感區裡面你們要求要做環評但我現在要問你說你知道現在的再生能源產業或是光電產業其實也有一些環境檢視的機制在現在有什麼樣環境檢視的機制你知道嗎\n309041\t334367\t你是說環境部的部分還是說包括全部的就講再生能源現有的機制就有一個環境檢核經濟部能源署這邊應該是以目前應該有一個我剛剛有稍微提到他們有一個標準然後移電工生也另外不是部長你一定要知道我沒有問那個能源局因為他主辦了所以他當然知道\n334927\t337228\t現在我跟你講為什麼能源局有一個環境檢核環社不只是環境還環境和社會檢核為什麼作為環境目的事業主管機關的環境部部長你們不知道呢為什麼這個東西你需要知道\n351897\t356920\t因為我們都知道特別是光電在陸地陸域裡面的光電產業跟我們的生活區域這個接近度很高所以引起了這個社區的反彈也很大所以我們都知道環評他沒有辦法在光電計畫選址前實質處理生態議題\n378473\t399207\t通常在選址以前要設置以前沒有辦法處理我們就只說我已經選定好了值我要設置了你才會環評嘛可是選址前的議題生態議題他也沒有辦法處理那環評也沒有辦法處理說同一個地區他到底要不要總量管制他已經累積了暗場和面積效應會達到什麼樣的環境衝擊他也沒有辦法處理對吧\n405171\t425945\t林委員報告我剛剛在事實上開始的時候檢報有提到嘛經濟部能源署事實上他有兩個這個審定原則包括剛剛林委員講太陽光電環境與社會檢核機制這個是第一個嘛第二個是設置你講的照稿念誰不會讓我問你他在這個環社的這個環社檢定整個環境與社會的檢核機制\n433010\t434491\t他用在哪幾種光電廠?餘電共生餘電共生現在佔多少比例?你也不知道我是要告訴你\n446707\t466312\t我必須要講光電具有親近社區的特質而我們不要說你已經就要設立在這裡了我們再去吵架我們也不要說沒有止境的一個旗鼓多大的面積設立了多大的面積然後大家在那裡抗爭也不得沒有辦法解決知道\n467052\t492697\t所以大家在講說這個環社減核你有沒有瞭解跟你的業務有沒有相關環境跟社會減核嘛你看啊就在這裡啊他減核什麼東西環社減核他們要先去辨識他們透過圖資要先去他不是在業者要申請的時候去處理喔是政府\n493477\t504604\t你既然要發展綠能然後我們反對不安全的核電要發展綠能那你就要更有責任一點這個責任就是你要去檢視全國的土地哪些要去嚴選是較沒有生態疑慮的走上面他就先可以做了然後稍微有生態疑慮的你就進一步去檢核\n520927\t526672\t這個檢核的基礎可能就要試射到你要去投資還有所有相關行政資訊都調出來有沒有地質敏感他的生態投資是什麼他的災害減緩的投資是什麼這個是不是都環境衝擊的評估是不是都是環境部的業務那我現在問你為什麼為什麼經濟部在運作現在的環社檢核沒有環境部的角色\n551226\t566291\t因為這個主責單位是經濟部能源署但為什麼沒有目的事業主管機關進來幫環境上把關然後能源局自己全員監裁判自己去判定地質敏感生態圖資災害減緩嗎然後接下來進行現場勘查跟生態情報圖繪製的時候你看我們的圖\n575169\t602215\t還需要檢核現況跟圖資比對然後還必須要做生物分布自然的這個環境的狀態還需要去看這個地方的區域跟周邊生態系服務功能的確認還有鳥類熱點等等這個不是目的事業主管機關都是環境部嗎不是目的事業主管機關在這一塊是再生能源再生能源是經濟部他要做環社檢核\n603855\t616589\t一直都沒有環境的目的事業主管機關環境部你們的角色所以未來或許經濟部可以跟環境部來討論檢核到最後要幹什麼你知道嗎要辨認議題辨認說這個區域到底是\n621754\t646705\t優先可以做綠能光電的優先區還是要作為一個緩衝區還是要做迴避區大家就在做這個為什麼要做這個是因為我們一開始就講了環評沒有辦法解決選址前實質要去處理生態這個這個值到底合不合適第二個也沒辦法處理同一地區的累積效應的問題但是呢\n650137\t653398\t我們就強度不要一下子就談到環評因為你環評的設計裡面也是門檻很高的啦你現在失地還要再綁一個2MW那你未來的大面積要做環評的你講的日本的4KW的那個也都是門檻很高幾乎沒有幾個暗場需要做啦\n675250\t690460\t但是呢這麼高的門檻大部分的案場都不用做可以解決我們現在對光電廠設置的很多的衝突嗎事實上林委員你只要覺得經濟部在這一塊是求言兼採判\n691420\t694063\t我沒有問你這個我現在問你是部長你現在進入環境的門檻定的這麼高可以解決現在設置光電暗場的這個社區居民跟業者設置這樣的衝突嗎\n708690\t721438\t這個部分環評只是任何一個開發行為裡面一個步驟啦他也不是環評過了大概什麼都就...你講這個都是你連門檻盯那麼高連大可能90%的案場90%的案場都不需要都不會跑到環評程序搞不好95%的案場都不會跑進去環評的程序那我現在問你是說\n734085\t756459\t這樣子你覺得妥當嗎?所以我們在講說以現在在運作的環社檢核為例他為什麼優先選漁電廠、漁電光、漁電型的光電去試辦你覺得呢?因為可以善用除了漁電可以共生嘛那對事實上對農業部移民這些事實上他有正面然後又可以發展\n757179\t782494\t對嘛,所以減最便宜的我講最直接的因為養魚它的遮蔽率40的狀況裡面是很容易繼續養的產業跟光電是可以共同共存的嘛那如果把這樣的這個減額機制放到營電型的或者是農地型的光電不是養殖的喔你覺得會是這個結果嗎?\n785356\t804834\t假如有檢討的空間那我們就去檢討去修正不是有沒有檢討的空間我在問你啊因為我們都知道現在的農地型的有就是不利耕作地區嘛對不對 局長、署長不利耕作地區嘛\n807382\t834727\t目前農地並還沒有開放農電共生那現在是在試驗階段對啦你就是不良耕作地區才可以設置嘛目前是只有那你們開放營電型現在要預計要開放營電型人家說因為你設置了暗場的地方不過所以在找地嘛所以找上了農地相對於不良不利耕作地區你就找農地找可耕作的嘛那我們都知道\n835507\t851419\t光電跟我們的農業作物是要搶光的嘛這有存在一種搶光的疑慮所以一般來是做農的有賺錢的不會去倒光電板嘛但是呢我們知道到時候是誰可能撩錢的農作物撩錢的還是不付成本的\n857503\t882977\t就可能會想要啦但想要的這些人其實可利於耕作的但是在這種有利於耕作的狀況裡面世界上你要考慮到的是國家的糧食主權的問題啊所以我今天我今天要跟你們講的意思是說那我們這個環境和社會檢核機制它當然有它的作用存在我們希望它法制化\n883957\t889642\t署長、部長把這一套環境跟社會檢核機制法制化然後讓它相對於環評它的強度可能沒那麼高但是又可以解決我們在於這個光電營運的這個設置上大家比較容易衝突的說因為資訊不公開嘛現有的機制\n910760\t927906\t那如果我們進行環社檢核的時候他必須先檢核整個區域的到底適不適合設置然後就有公民參與的機制進來大家都一起來討論我們這個地區到底合不合適合適的我們就讓他先做有緩衝的也來考慮要緩衝條件是什麼\n936289\t941152\t然後不行的我們就把它真的是讓它變成迴避區這樣子避免未來我就要做了你給我環評大家就吵架然後也可以去處理同一塊地區到底我們要設置多少面積要累積多少的這個發電量對這個地方整體的衝擊環境衝擊居住的舒適度的衝擊景觀的衝擊可以降到最低\n967010\t982641\t所以我現在要講就把這個環色減和機制那你覺得在你們那麼高的環評門檻跟不需要環評中間把環色減和的這個機制放在哪裡?\n984283\t986045\t可以放進來嗎?是啊,現在能源局自己受環社檢核求援兼裁判嘛\n998799\t1009363\t連環社檢核都沒有環境部的角色進去他有能力做這一些嗎?生物分布、自然環境狀況的檢視生態系服務功能的確認水鳥、水鳥、鳥類分布的先刊然後他有辦法圖資比對這個生態環境跟這個區域的狀況緩衝區的距離要多少他有辦法知道嗎?\n1024090\t1031053\t的專業也不在這裡這是目的事業主管機關環境部的專業所以我現在在講這裡就是說我最後講一個結論我們要擴大光電環評的認定但你的草案標準還沒有出來但現在看到你的門檻是相對高的所以我們今天講說相對於這個門檻那麼高你要設置的那麼高把這個\n1050041\t1050102\t林淑芬議員\n1067765\t1084732\t你們要提出你們自己的農業部門的空間部門計畫你的整體農業面積要怎麼樣才能達到國家糧食安全的自主不是大家一直找地要設光墊然後你就一直再放出去你的農業部門空間計畫再生能源的空間部門計劃要盤點出環境的資源還有空間規劃的可行性跟\n1095077\t1096399\t這些考量跟環評這個認定標準一起都放在一起 這才是完整的啦好 謝謝林淑芬委員 也謝謝部長 請好好研議\n","txt":"謝謝主席,是不是請我們這個部長,好請薛部長\n您好部長我先從哪裡講起好了我先講這個\n有一些陳年舊案在環評或環線差做過以後10年和20年都沒有完成開發那期間可能會有業者倒閉轉手財務危機遲遲沒有動工那也可能大家都覺得取得的開發證很難能可貴\n所以大概都在大概自己沒有辦法再開發的話都會轉賣出去轉手他人所以到時候就很多陳年舊案然後就捲土重來像藍水建霸的世豐水利電廠大家都知道就是說我們他在1999年就做完了兩階段的環評報告完成了\n1999年可是他3年後的2002年他也沒有動工他是2004年才動工結果他動工的時候就因為超過3年沒有實施開發行為就被處分然後就要求說那你超過3年要做環線差結果呢他在拖他也一直拖拖到2007年才做環線差然後呢他也沒有開發\n他就直接就丟著動工一下就丟著然後現在到2019年從1999到2019經過20年他這塊執照還放著然後轉賣給大財團政威集團在這種狀況裡面他們現在主張說我們不需要做環評我們也不需要做環線差因為2007年做過了2007年到現在天啊已經經過13年了\n而你們屬裏面：你們不裏面：你們仍然認為說這個應該也是不用再做環線查然後直接就可以繼續他們就可以繼續開發了嗎?\n給林委員報告以現有的辦法事實上是10年必須要完成開發那他只要10年沒有動作他是可以再延展延一次好像是現在我不再跟你講10年展延的問題我再講說環評法第16條之一的立法精神\n就是說三年三年一次的環境變動非常的大以世豐水利電廠為例他在豐平溪流域他2007年做了環線查到2007年之後豐平溪歷經颱風侵襲地震擾動所以整個地區包括山崩地滑大規模的淺勢的崩塌區通通都跑出來\n所以大家都認為說你怎麼會把2007年2007年之後還有這麼多的問題你們都不用再去做環境衝擊的評估那人家就幫你們研究了地球公民基金會幫你們做的研究是風電力花蓮風平溪流域的水溫狀況他們發現\n他的巡流量就是每10天為一巡的平均流量跟環評時期跟環縣差時期他在統計上有顯著的差異他代表在氣候變遷之下而風平息的流量變化越來越極端而且在一年之中他可能就有三分之一的時間無法滿足發電和生態機流量的需求\n所以它的環境變化是相當相當大的而你們現在仍然主張說不需要再去檢視環境的這個差異就可以直接動工免做環線差直接做過2007年做過了就免死金牌了然後就這樣子就要準了因為它是政威集團接手了嗎\n林委員報告針對這些成年老案因為我涉入比較不深我剛剛講的有沒有道理我們來瞭解一下好不好我剛剛講的有沒有道理我們16條之一的最核心立法的精神就是我們認為環境的變異3年在極端氣候之下3年減是一次\n這是很重要的我們希望不要政府看到財團就轉向或者是手就軟了我們以往來行政好不好我們以往來行政好那我就要請教你現在我們今天大家討論是說一定規模會在環境敏感區裡面你們要求要做環評但我現在要問你說你知道現在的再生能源產業或是光電產業其實也有一些環境檢視的機制在現在有什麼樣環境檢視的機制你知道嗎\n你是說環境部的部分還是說包括全部的就講再生能源現有的機制就有一個環境檢核經濟部能源署這邊應該是以目前應該有一個我剛剛有稍微提到他們有一個標準然後移電工生也另外不是部長你一定要知道我沒有問那個能源局因為他主辦了所以他當然知道\n現在我跟你講為什麼能源局有一個環境檢核環社不只是環境還環境和社會檢核為什麼作為環境目的事業主管機關的環境部部長你們不知道呢為什麼這個東西你需要知道\n因為我們都知道特別是光電在陸地陸域裡面的光電產業跟我們的生活區域這個接近度很高所以引起了這個社區的反彈也很大所以我們都知道環評他沒有辦法在光電計畫選址前實質處理生態議題\n通常在選址以前要設置以前沒有辦法處理我們就只說我已經選定好了值我要設置了你才會環評嘛可是選址前的議題生態議題他也沒有辦法處理那環評也沒有辦法處理說同一個地區他到底要不要總量管制他已經累積了暗場和面積效應會達到什麼樣的環境衝擊他也沒有辦法處理對吧\n林委員報告我剛剛在事實上開始的時候檢報有提到嘛經濟部能源署事實上他有兩個這個審定原則包括剛剛林委員講太陽光電環境與社會檢核機制這個是第一個嘛第二個是設置你講的照稿念誰不會讓我問你他在這個環社的這個環社檢定整個環境與社會的檢核機制\n他用在哪幾種光電廠?餘電共生餘電共生現在佔多少比例?你也不知道我是要告訴你\n我必須要講光電具有親近社區的特質而我們不要說你已經就要設立在這裡了我們再去吵架我們也不要說沒有止境的一個旗鼓多大的面積設立了多大的面積然後大家在那裡抗爭也不得沒有辦法解決知道\n所以大家在講說這個環社減核你有沒有瞭解跟你的業務有沒有相關環境跟社會減核嘛你看啊就在這裡啊他減核什麼東西環社減核他們要先去辨識他們透過圖資要先去他不是在業者要申請的時候去處理喔是政府\n你既然要發展綠能然後我們反對不安全的核電要發展綠能那你就要更有責任一點這個責任就是你要去檢視全國的土地哪些要去嚴選是較沒有生態疑慮的走上面他就先可以做了然後稍微有生態疑慮的你就進一步去檢核\n這個檢核的基礎可能就要試射到你要去投資還有所有相關行政資訊都調出來有沒有地質敏感他的生態投資是什麼他的災害減緩的投資是什麼這個是不是都環境衝擊的評估是不是都是環境部的業務那我現在問你為什麼為什麼經濟部在運作現在的環社檢核沒有環境部的角色\n因為這個主責單位是經濟部能源署但為什麼沒有目的事業主管機關進來幫環境上把關然後能源局自己全員監裁判自己去判定地質敏感生態圖資災害減緩嗎然後接下來進行現場勘查跟生態情報圖繪製的時候你看我們的圖\n還需要檢核現況跟圖資比對然後還必須要做生物分布自然的這個環境的狀態還需要去看這個地方的區域跟周邊生態系服務功能的確認還有鳥類熱點等等這個不是目的事業主管機關都是環境部嗎不是目的事業主管機關在這一塊是再生能源再生能源是經濟部他要做環社檢核\n一直都沒有環境的目的事業主管機關環境部你們的角色所以未來或許經濟部可以跟環境部來討論檢核到最後要幹什麼你知道嗎要辨認議題辨認說這個區域到底是\n優先可以做綠能光電的優先區還是要作為一個緩衝區還是要做迴避區大家就在做這個為什麼要做這個是因為我們一開始就講了環評沒有辦法解決選址前實質要去處理生態這個這個值到底合不合適第二個也沒辦法處理同一地區的累積效應的問題但是呢\n我們就強度不要一下子就談到環評因為你環評的設計裡面也是門檻很高的啦你現在失地還要再綁一個2MW那你未來的大面積要做環評的你講的日本的4KW的那個也都是門檻很高幾乎沒有幾個暗場需要做啦\n但是呢這麼高的門檻大部分的案場都不用做可以解決我們現在對光電廠設置的很多的衝突嗎事實上林委員你只要覺得經濟部在這一塊是求言兼採判\n我沒有問你這個我現在問你是部長你現在進入環境的門檻定的這麼高可以解決現在設置光電暗場的這個社區居民跟業者設置這樣的衝突嗎\n這個部分環評只是任何一個開發行為裡面一個步驟啦他也不是環評過了大概什麼都就...你講這個都是你連門檻盯那麼高連大可能90%的案場90%的案場都不需要都不會跑到環評程序搞不好95%的案場都不會跑進去環評的程序那我現在問你是說\n這樣子你覺得妥當嗎?所以我們在講說以現在在運作的環社檢核為例他為什麼優先選漁電廠、漁電光、漁電型的光電去試辦你覺得呢?因為可以善用除了漁電可以共生嘛那對事實上對農業部移民這些事實上他有正面然後又可以發展\n對嘛,所以減最便宜的我講最直接的因為養魚它的遮蔽率40的狀況裡面是很容易繼續養的產業跟光電是可以共同共存的嘛那如果把這樣的這個減額機制放到營電型的或者是農地型的光電不是養殖的喔你覺得會是這個結果嗎?\n假如有檢討的空間那我們就去檢討去修正不是有沒有檢討的空間我在問你啊因為我們都知道現在的農地型的有就是不利耕作地區嘛對不對 局長、署長不利耕作地區嘛\n目前農地並還沒有開放農電共生那現在是在試驗階段對啦你就是不良耕作地區才可以設置嘛目前是只有那你們開放營電型現在要預計要開放營電型人家說因為你設置了暗場的地方不過所以在找地嘛所以找上了農地相對於不良不利耕作地區你就找農地找可耕作的嘛那我們都知道\n光電跟我們的農業作物是要搶光的嘛這有存在一種搶光的疑慮所以一般來是做農的有賺錢的不會去倒光電板嘛但是呢我們知道到時候是誰可能撩錢的農作物撩錢的還是不付成本的\n就可能會想要啦但想要的這些人其實可利於耕作的但是在這種有利於耕作的狀況裡面世界上你要考慮到的是國家的糧食主權的問題啊所以我今天我今天要跟你們講的意思是說那我們這個環境和社會檢核機制它當然有它的作用存在我們希望它法制化\n署長、部長把這一套環境跟社會檢核機制法制化然後讓它相對於環評它的強度可能沒那麼高但是又可以解決我們在於這個光電營運的這個設置上大家比較容易衝突的說因為資訊不公開嘛現有的機制\n那如果我們進行環社檢核的時候他必須先檢核整個區域的到底適不適合設置然後就有公民參與的機制進來大家都一起來討論我們這個地區到底合不合適合適的我們就讓他先做有緩衝的也來考慮要緩衝條件是什麼\n然後不行的我們就把它真的是讓它變成迴避區這樣子避免未來我就要做了你給我環評大家就吵架然後也可以去處理同一塊地區到底我們要設置多少面積要累積多少的這個發電量對這個地方整體的衝擊環境衝擊居住的舒適度的衝擊景觀的衝擊可以降到最低\n所以我現在要講就把這個環色減和機制那你覺得在你們那麼高的環評門檻跟不需要環評中間把環色減和的這個機制放在哪裡?\n可以放進來嗎?是啊,現在能源局自己受環社檢核求援兼裁判嘛\n連環社檢核都沒有環境部的角色進去他有能力做這一些嗎?生物分布、自然環境狀況的檢視生態系服務功能的確認水鳥、水鳥、鳥類分布的先刊然後他有辦法圖資比對這個生態環境跟這個區域的狀況緩衝區的距離要多少他有辦法知道嗎?\n的專業也不在這裡這是目的事業主管機關環境部的專業所以我現在在講這裡就是說我最後講一個結論我們要擴大光電環評的認定但你的草案標準還沒有出來但現在看到你的門檻是相對高的所以我們今天講說相對於這個門檻那麼高你要設置的那麼高把這個\n林淑芬議員\n你們要提出你們自己的農業部門的空間部門計畫你的整體農業面積要怎麼樣才能達到國家糧食安全的自主不是大家一直找地要設光墊然後你就一直再放出去你的農業部門空間計畫再生能源的空間部門計劃要盤點出環境的資源還有空間規劃的可行性跟\n這些考量跟環評這個認定標準一起都放在一起 這才是完整的啦好 謝謝林淑芬委員 也謝謝部長 請好好研議\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:14.073 --> 00:17.395\n謝謝主席,是不是請我們這個部長,好請薛部長\n\n00:21.763 --> 00:29.479\n您好部長我先從哪裡講起好了我先講這個\n\n00:31.570 --> 00:37.276\n有一些陳年舊案在環評或環線差做過以後10年和20年都沒有完成開發那期間可能會有業者倒閉轉手財務危機遲遲沒有動工那也可能大家都覺得取得的開發證很難能可貴\n\n00:51.730 --> 01:14.407\n所以大概都在大概自己沒有辦法再開發的話都會轉賣出去轉手他人所以到時候就很多陳年舊案然後就捲土重來像藍水建霸的世豐水利電廠大家都知道就是說我們他在1999年就做完了兩階段的環評報告完成了\n\n01:15.588 --> 01:40.124\n1999年可是他3年後的2002年他也沒有動工他是2004年才動工結果他動工的時候就因為超過3年沒有實施開發行為就被處分然後就要求說那你超過3年要做環線差結果呢他在拖他也一直拖拖到2007年才做環線差然後呢他也沒有開發\n\n01:41.585 --> 01:47.889\n他就直接就丟著動工一下就丟著然後現在到2019年從1999到2019經過20年他這塊執照還放著然後轉賣給大財團政威集團在這種狀況裡面他們現在主張說我們不需要做環評我們也不需要做環線差因為2007年做過了2007年到現在天啊已經經過13年了\n\n02:09.298 --> 02:19.046\n而你們屬裏面：你們不裏面：你們仍然認為說這個應該也是不用再做環線查然後直接就可以繼續他們就可以繼續開發了嗎?\n\n02:21.534 --> 02:39.230\n給林委員報告以現有的辦法事實上是10年必須要完成開發那他只要10年沒有動作他是可以再延展延一次好像是現在我不再跟你講10年展延的問題我再講說環評法第16條之一的立法精神\n\n02:39.870 --> 03:03.159\n就是說三年三年一次的環境變動非常的大以世豐水利電廠為例他在豐平溪流域他2007年做了環線查到2007年之後豐平溪歷經颱風侵襲地震擾動所以整個地區包括山崩地滑大規模的淺勢的崩塌區通通都跑出來\n\n03:04.179 --> 03:07.782\n所以大家都認為說你怎麼會把2007年2007年之後還有這麼多的問題你們都不用再去做環境衝擊的評估那人家就幫你們研究了地球公民基金會幫你們做的研究是風電力花蓮風平溪流域的水溫狀況他們發現\n\n03:24.918 --> 03:49.231\n他的巡流量就是每10天為一巡的平均流量跟環評時期跟環縣差時期他在統計上有顯著的差異他代表在氣候變遷之下而風平息的流量變化越來越極端而且在一年之中他可能就有三分之一的時間無法滿足發電和生態機流量的需求\n\n03:50.131 --> 04:13.548\n所以它的環境變化是相當相當大的而你們現在仍然主張說不需要再去檢視環境的這個差異就可以直接動工免做環線差直接做過2007年做過了就免死金牌了然後就這樣子就要準了因為它是政威集團接手了嗎\n\n04:15.947 --> 04:37.020\n林委員報告針對這些成年老案因為我涉入比較不深我剛剛講的有沒有道理我們來瞭解一下好不好我剛剛講的有沒有道理我們16條之一的最核心立法的精神就是我們認為環境的變異3年在極端氣候之下3年減是一次\n\n04:38.301 --> 04:50.389\n這是很重要的我們希望不要政府看到財團就轉向或者是手就軟了我們以往來行政好不好我們以往來行政好那我就要請教你現在我們今天大家討論是說一定規模會在環境敏感區裡面你們要求要做環評但我現在要問你說你知道現在的再生能源產業或是光電產業其實也有一些環境檢視的機制在現在有什麼樣環境檢視的機制你知道嗎\n\n05:09.041 --> 05:34.367\n你是說環境部的部分還是說包括全部的就講再生能源現有的機制就有一個環境檢核經濟部能源署這邊應該是以目前應該有一個我剛剛有稍微提到他們有一個標準然後移電工生也另外不是部長你一定要知道我沒有問那個能源局因為他主辦了所以他當然知道\n\n05:34.927 --> 05:37.228\n現在我跟你講為什麼能源局有一個環境檢核環社不只是環境還環境和社會檢核為什麼作為環境目的事業主管機關的環境部部長你們不知道呢為什麼這個東西你需要知道\n\n05:51.897 --> 05:56.920\n因為我們都知道特別是光電在陸地陸域裡面的光電產業跟我們的生活區域這個接近度很高所以引起了這個社區的反彈也很大所以我們都知道環評他沒有辦法在光電計畫選址前實質處理生態議題\n\n06:18.473 --> 06:39.207\n通常在選址以前要設置以前沒有辦法處理我們就只說我已經選定好了值我要設置了你才會環評嘛可是選址前的議題生態議題他也沒有辦法處理那環評也沒有辦法處理說同一個地區他到底要不要總量管制他已經累積了暗場和面積效應會達到什麼樣的環境衝擊他也沒有辦法處理對吧\n\n06:45.171 --> 07:05.945\n林委員報告我剛剛在事實上開始的時候檢報有提到嘛經濟部能源署事實上他有兩個這個審定原則包括剛剛林委員講太陽光電環境與社會檢核機制這個是第一個嘛第二個是設置你講的照稿念誰不會讓我問你他在這個環社的這個環社檢定整個環境與社會的檢核機制\n\n07:13.010 --> 07:14.491\n他用在哪幾種光電廠?餘電共生餘電共生現在佔多少比例?你也不知道我是要告訴你\n\n07:26.707 --> 07:46.312\n我必須要講光電具有親近社區的特質而我們不要說你已經就要設立在這裡了我們再去吵架我們也不要說沒有止境的一個旗鼓多大的面積設立了多大的面積然後大家在那裡抗爭也不得沒有辦法解決知道\n\n07:47.052 --> 08:12.697\n所以大家在講說這個環社減核你有沒有瞭解跟你的業務有沒有相關環境跟社會減核嘛你看啊就在這裡啊他減核什麼東西環社減核他們要先去辨識他們透過圖資要先去他不是在業者要申請的時候去處理喔是政府\n\n08:13.477 --> 08:24.604\n你既然要發展綠能然後我們反對不安全的核電要發展綠能那你就要更有責任一點這個責任就是你要去檢視全國的土地哪些要去嚴選是較沒有生態疑慮的走上面他就先可以做了然後稍微有生態疑慮的你就進一步去檢核\n\n08:40.927 --> 08:46.672\n這個檢核的基礎可能就要試射到你要去投資還有所有相關行政資訊都調出來有沒有地質敏感他的生態投資是什麼他的災害減緩的投資是什麼這個是不是都環境衝擊的評估是不是都是環境部的業務那我現在問你為什麼為什麼經濟部在運作現在的環社檢核沒有環境部的角色\n\n09:11.226 --> 09:26.291\n因為這個主責單位是經濟部能源署但為什麼沒有目的事業主管機關進來幫環境上把關然後能源局自己全員監裁判自己去判定地質敏感生態圖資災害減緩嗎然後接下來進行現場勘查跟生態情報圖繪製的時候你看我們的圖\n\n09:35.169 --> 10:02.215\n還需要檢核現況跟圖資比對然後還必須要做生物分布自然的這個環境的狀態還需要去看這個地方的區域跟周邊生態系服務功能的確認還有鳥類熱點等等這個不是目的事業主管機關都是環境部嗎不是目的事業主管機關在這一塊是再生能源再生能源是經濟部他要做環社檢核\n\n10:03.855 --> 10:16.589\n一直都沒有環境的目的事業主管機關環境部你們的角色所以未來或許經濟部可以跟環境部來討論檢核到最後要幹什麼你知道嗎要辨認議題辨認說這個區域到底是\n\n10:21.754 --> 10:46.705\n優先可以做綠能光電的優先區還是要作為一個緩衝區還是要做迴避區大家就在做這個為什麼要做這個是因為我們一開始就講了環評沒有辦法解決選址前實質要去處理生態這個這個值到底合不合適第二個也沒辦法處理同一地區的累積效應的問題但是呢\n\n10:50.137 --> 10:53.398\n我們就強度不要一下子就談到環評因為你環評的設計裡面也是門檻很高的啦你現在失地還要再綁一個2MW那你未來的大面積要做環評的你講的日本的4KW的那個也都是門檻很高幾乎沒有幾個暗場需要做啦\n\n11:15.250 --> 11:30.460\n但是呢這麼高的門檻大部分的案場都不用做可以解決我們現在對光電廠設置的很多的衝突嗎事實上林委員你只要覺得經濟部在這一塊是求言兼採判\n\n11:31.420 --> 11:34.063\n我沒有問你這個我現在問你是部長你現在進入環境的門檻定的這麼高可以解決現在設置光電暗場的這個社區居民跟業者設置這樣的衝突嗎\n\n11:48.690 --> 12:01.438\n這個部分環評只是任何一個開發行為裡面一個步驟啦他也不是環評過了大概什麼都就...你講這個都是你連門檻盯那麼高連大可能90%的案場90%的案場都不需要都不會跑到環評程序搞不好95%的案場都不會跑進去環評的程序那我現在問你是說\n\n12:14.085 --> 12:36.459\n這樣子你覺得妥當嗎?所以我們在講說以現在在運作的環社檢核為例他為什麼優先選漁電廠、漁電光、漁電型的光電去試辦你覺得呢?因為可以善用除了漁電可以共生嘛那對事實上對農業部移民這些事實上他有正面然後又可以發展\n\n12:37.179 --> 13:02.494\n對嘛,所以減最便宜的我講最直接的因為養魚它的遮蔽率40的狀況裡面是很容易繼續養的產業跟光電是可以共同共存的嘛那如果把這樣的這個減額機制放到營電型的或者是農地型的光電不是養殖的喔你覺得會是這個結果嗎?\n\n13:05.356 --> 13:24.834\n假如有檢討的空間那我們就去檢討去修正不是有沒有檢討的空間我在問你啊因為我們都知道現在的農地型的有就是不利耕作地區嘛對不對局長、署長不利耕作地區嘛\n\n13:27.382 --> 13:54.727\n目前農地並還沒有開放農電共生那現在是在試驗階段對啦你就是不良耕作地區才可以設置嘛目前是只有那你們開放營電型現在要預計要開放營電型人家說因為你設置了暗場的地方不過所以在找地嘛所以找上了農地相對於不良不利耕作地區你就找農地找可耕作的嘛那我們都知道\n\n13:55.507 --> 14:11.419\n光電跟我們的農業作物是要搶光的嘛這有存在一種搶光的疑慮所以一般來是做農的有賺錢的不會去倒光電板嘛但是呢我們知道到時候是誰可能撩錢的農作物撩錢的還是不付成本的\n\n14:17.503 --> 14:42.977\n就可能會想要啦但想要的這些人其實可利於耕作的但是在這種有利於耕作的狀況裡面世界上你要考慮到的是國家的糧食主權的問題啊所以我今天我今天要跟你們講的意思是說那我們這個環境和社會檢核機制它當然有它的作用存在我們希望它法制化\n\n14:43.957 --> 14:49.642\n署長、部長把這一套環境跟社會檢核機制法制化然後讓它相對於環評它的強度可能沒那麼高但是又可以解決我們在於這個光電營運的這個設置上大家比較容易衝突的說因為資訊不公開嘛現有的機制\n\n15:10.760 --> 15:27.906\n那如果我們進行環社檢核的時候他必須先檢核整個區域的到底適不適合設置然後就有公民參與的機制進來大家都一起來討論我們這個地區到底合不合適合適的我們就讓他先做有緩衝的也來考慮要緩衝條件是什麼\n\n15:36.289 --> 15:41.152\n然後不行的我們就把它真的是讓它變成迴避區這樣子避免未來我就要做了你給我環評大家就吵架然後也可以去處理同一塊地區到底我們要設置多少面積要累積多少的這個發電量對這個地方整體的衝擊環境衝擊居住的舒適度的衝擊景觀的衝擊可以降到最低\n\n16:07.010 --> 16:22.641\n所以我現在要講就把這個環色減和機制那你覺得在你們那麼高的環評門檻跟不需要環評中間把環色減和的這個機制放在哪裡?\n\n16:24.283 --> 16:26.045\n可以放進來嗎?是啊,現在能源局自己受環社檢核求援兼裁判嘛\n\n16:38.799 --> 16:49.363\n連環社檢核都沒有環境部的角色進去他有能力做這一些嗎?生物分布、自然環境狀況的檢視生態系服務功能的確認水鳥、水鳥、鳥類分布的先刊然後他有辦法圖資比對這個生態環境跟這個區域的狀況緩衝區的距離要多少他有辦法知道嗎?\n\n17:04.090 --> 17:11.053\n的專業也不在這裡這是目的事業主管機關環境部的專業所以我現在在講這裡就是說我最後講一個結論我們要擴大光電環評的認定但你的草案標準還沒有出來但現在看到你的門檻是相對高的所以我們今天講說相對於這個門檻那麼高你要設置的那麼高把這個\n\n17:30.041 --> 17:30.102\n林淑芬議員\n\n17:47.765 --> 18:04.732\n你們要提出你們自己的農業部門的空間部門計畫你的整體農業面積要怎麼樣才能達到國家糧食安全的自主不是大家一直找地要設光墊然後你就一直再放出去你的農業部門空間計畫再生能源的空間部門計劃要盤點出環境的資源還有空間規劃的可行性跟\n\n18:15.077 --> 18:16.399\n這些考量跟環評這個認定標準一起都放在一起這才是完整的啦好謝謝林淑芬委員也謝謝部長請好好研議\n\n","segments":[{"start":14.073,"end":17.395,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是請我們這個部長,好請薛部長"},{"start":21.763,"end":29.479,"text":"您好部長我先從哪裡講起好了我先講這個"},{"start":31.57,"end":37.276,"text":"有一些陳年舊案在環評或環線差做過以後10年和20年都沒有完成開發那期間可能會有業者倒閉轉手財務危機遲遲沒有動工那也可能大家都覺得取得的開發證很難能可貴"},{"start":51.73,"end":74.407,"text":"所以大概都在大概自己沒有辦法再開發的話都會轉賣出去轉手他人所以到時候就很多陳年舊案然後就捲土重來像藍水建霸的世豐水利電廠大家都知道就是說我們他在1999年就做完了兩階段的環評報告完成了"},{"start":75.588,"end":100.124,"text":"1999年可是他3年後的2002年他也沒有動工他是2004年才動工結果他動工的時候就因為超過3年沒有實施開發行為就被處分然後就要求說那你超過3年要做環線差結果呢他在拖他也一直拖拖到2007年才做環線差然後呢他也沒有開發"},{"start":101.585,"end":107.889,"text":"他就直接就丟著動工一下就丟著然後現在到2019年從1999到2019經過20年他這塊執照還放著然後轉賣給大財團政威集團在這種狀況裡面他們現在主張說我們不需要做環評我們也不需要做環線差因為2007年做過了2007年到現在天啊已經經過13年了"},{"start":129.298,"end":139.046,"text":"而你們屬裏面：你們不裏面：你們仍然認為說這個應該也是不用再做環線查然後直接就可以繼續他們就可以繼續開發了嗎?"},{"start":141.534,"end":159.23,"text":"給林委員報告以現有的辦法事實上是10年必須要完成開發那他只要10年沒有動作他是可以再延展延一次好像是現在我不再跟你講10年展延的問題我再講說環評法第16條之一的立法精神"},{"start":159.87,"end":183.159,"text":"就是說三年三年一次的環境變動非常的大以世豐水利電廠為例他在豐平溪流域他2007年做了環線查到2007年之後豐平溪歷經颱風侵襲地震擾動所以整個地區包括山崩地滑大規模的淺勢的崩塌區通通都跑出來"},{"start":184.179,"end":187.782,"text":"所以大家都認為說你怎麼會把2007年2007年之後還有這麼多的問題你們都不用再去做環境衝擊的評估那人家就幫你們研究了地球公民基金會幫你們做的研究是風電力花蓮風平溪流域的水溫狀況他們發現"},{"start":204.918,"end":229.231,"text":"他的巡流量就是每10天為一巡的平均流量跟環評時期跟環縣差時期他在統計上有顯著的差異他代表在氣候變遷之下而風平息的流量變化越來越極端而且在一年之中他可能就有三分之一的時間無法滿足發電和生態機流量的需求"},{"start":230.131,"end":253.548,"text":"所以它的環境變化是相當相當大的而你們現在仍然主張說不需要再去檢視環境的這個差異就可以直接動工免做環線差直接做過2007年做過了就免死金牌了然後就這樣子就要準了因為它是政威集團接手了嗎"},{"start":255.947,"end":277.02,"text":"林委員報告針對這些成年老案因為我涉入比較不深我剛剛講的有沒有道理我們來瞭解一下好不好我剛剛講的有沒有道理我們16條之一的最核心立法的精神就是我們認為環境的變異3年在極端氣候之下3年減是一次"},{"start":278.301,"end":290.389,"text":"這是很重要的我們希望不要政府看到財團就轉向或者是手就軟了我們以往來行政好不好我們以往來行政好那我就要請教你現在我們今天大家討論是說一定規模會在環境敏感區裡面你們要求要做環評但我現在要問你說你知道現在的再生能源產業或是光電產業其實也有一些環境檢視的機制在現在有什麼樣環境檢視的機制你知道嗎"},{"start":309.041,"end":334.367,"text":"你是說環境部的部分還是說包括全部的就講再生能源現有的機制就有一個環境檢核經濟部能源署這邊應該是以目前應該有一個我剛剛有稍微提到他們有一個標準然後移電工生也另外不是部長你一定要知道我沒有問那個能源局因為他主辦了所以他當然知道"},{"start":334.927,"end":337.228,"text":"現在我跟你講為什麼能源局有一個環境檢核環社不只是環境還環境和社會檢核為什麼作為環境目的事業主管機關的環境部部長你們不知道呢為什麼這個東西你需要知道"},{"start":351.897,"end":356.92,"text":"因為我們都知道特別是光電在陸地陸域裡面的光電產業跟我們的生活區域這個接近度很高所以引起了這個社區的反彈也很大所以我們都知道環評他沒有辦法在光電計畫選址前實質處理生態議題"},{"start":378.473,"end":399.207,"text":"通常在選址以前要設置以前沒有辦法處理我們就只說我已經選定好了值我要設置了你才會環評嘛可是選址前的議題生態議題他也沒有辦法處理那環評也沒有辦法處理說同一個地區他到底要不要總量管制他已經累積了暗場和面積效應會達到什麼樣的環境衝擊他也沒有辦法處理對吧"},{"start":405.171,"end":425.945,"text":"林委員報告我剛剛在事實上開始的時候檢報有提到嘛經濟部能源署事實上他有兩個這個審定原則包括剛剛林委員講太陽光電環境與社會檢核機制這個是第一個嘛第二個是設置你講的照稿念誰不會讓我問你他在這個環社的這個環社檢定整個環境與社會的檢核機制"},{"start":433.01,"end":434.491,"text":"他用在哪幾種光電廠?餘電共生餘電共生現在佔多少比例?你也不知道我是要告訴你"},{"start":446.707,"end":466.312,"text":"我必須要講光電具有親近社區的特質而我們不要說你已經就要設立在這裡了我們再去吵架我們也不要說沒有止境的一個旗鼓多大的面積設立了多大的面積然後大家在那裡抗爭也不得沒有辦法解決知道"},{"start":467.052,"end":492.697,"text":"所以大家在講說這個環社減核你有沒有瞭解跟你的業務有沒有相關環境跟社會減核嘛你看啊就在這裡啊他減核什麼東西環社減核他們要先去辨識他們透過圖資要先去他不是在業者要申請的時候去處理喔是政府"},{"start":493.477,"end":504.604,"text":"你既然要發展綠能然後我們反對不安全的核電要發展綠能那你就要更有責任一點這個責任就是你要去檢視全國的土地哪些要去嚴選是較沒有生態疑慮的走上面他就先可以做了然後稍微有生態疑慮的你就進一步去檢核"},{"start":520.927,"end":526.672,"text":"這個檢核的基礎可能就要試射到你要去投資還有所有相關行政資訊都調出來有沒有地質敏感他的生態投資是什麼他的災害減緩的投資是什麼這個是不是都環境衝擊的評估是不是都是環境部的業務那我現在問你為什麼為什麼經濟部在運作現在的環社檢核沒有環境部的角色"},{"start":551.226,"end":566.291,"text":"因為這個主責單位是經濟部能源署但為什麼沒有目的事業主管機關進來幫環境上把關然後能源局自己全員監裁判自己去判定地質敏感生態圖資災害減緩嗎然後接下來進行現場勘查跟生態情報圖繪製的時候你看我們的圖"},{"start":575.169,"end":602.215,"text":"還需要檢核現況跟圖資比對然後還必須要做生物分布自然的這個環境的狀態還需要去看這個地方的區域跟周邊生態系服務功能的確認還有鳥類熱點等等這個不是目的事業主管機關都是環境部嗎不是目的事業主管機關在這一塊是再生能源再生能源是經濟部他要做環社檢核"},{"start":603.855,"end":616.589,"text":"一直都沒有環境的目的事業主管機關環境部你們的角色所以未來或許經濟部可以跟環境部來討論檢核到最後要幹什麼你知道嗎要辨認議題辨認說這個區域到底是"},{"start":621.754,"end":646.705,"text":"優先可以做綠能光電的優先區還是要作為一個緩衝區還是要做迴避區大家就在做這個為什麼要做這個是因為我們一開始就講了環評沒有辦法解決選址前實質要去處理生態這個這個值到底合不合適第二個也沒辦法處理同一地區的累積效應的問題但是呢"},{"start":650.137,"end":653.398,"text":"我們就強度不要一下子就談到環評因為你環評的設計裡面也是門檻很高的啦你現在失地還要再綁一個2MW那你未來的大面積要做環評的你講的日本的4KW的那個也都是門檻很高幾乎沒有幾個暗場需要做啦"},{"start":675.25,"end":690.46,"text":"但是呢這麼高的門檻大部分的案場都不用做可以解決我們現在對光電廠設置的很多的衝突嗎事實上林委員你只要覺得經濟部在這一塊是求言兼採判"},{"start":691.42,"end":694.063,"text":"我沒有問你這個我現在問你是部長你現在進入環境的門檻定的這麼高可以解決現在設置光電暗場的這個社區居民跟業者設置這樣的衝突嗎"},{"start":708.69,"end":721.438,"text":"這個部分環評只是任何一個開發行為裡面一個步驟啦他也不是環評過了大概什麼都就...你講這個都是你連門檻盯那麼高連大可能90%的案場90%的案場都不需要都不會跑到環評程序搞不好95%的案場都不會跑進去環評的程序那我現在問你是說"},{"start":734.085,"end":756.459,"text":"這樣子你覺得妥當嗎?所以我們在講說以現在在運作的環社檢核為例他為什麼優先選漁電廠、漁電光、漁電型的光電去試辦你覺得呢?因為可以善用除了漁電可以共生嘛那對事實上對農業部移民這些事實上他有正面然後又可以發展"},{"start":757.179,"end":782.494,"text":"對嘛,所以減最便宜的我講最直接的因為養魚它的遮蔽率40的狀況裡面是很容易繼續養的產業跟光電是可以共同共存的嘛那如果把這樣的這個減額機制放到營電型的或者是農地型的光電不是養殖的喔你覺得會是這個結果嗎?"},{"start":785.356,"end":804.834,"text":"假如有檢討的空間那我們就去檢討去修正不是有沒有檢討的空間我在問你啊因為我們都知道現在的農地型的有就是不利耕作地區嘛對不對 局長、署長不利耕作地區嘛"},{"start":807.382,"end":834.727,"text":"目前農地並還沒有開放農電共生那現在是在試驗階段對啦你就是不良耕作地區才可以設置嘛目前是只有那你們開放營電型現在要預計要開放營電型人家說因為你設置了暗場的地方不過所以在找地嘛所以找上了農地相對於不良不利耕作地區你就找農地找可耕作的嘛那我們都知道"},{"start":835.507,"end":851.419,"text":"光電跟我們的農業作物是要搶光的嘛這有存在一種搶光的疑慮所以一般來是做農的有賺錢的不會去倒光電板嘛但是呢我們知道到時候是誰可能撩錢的農作物撩錢的還是不付成本的"},{"start":857.503,"end":882.977,"text":"就可能會想要啦但想要的這些人其實可利於耕作的但是在這種有利於耕作的狀況裡面世界上你要考慮到的是國家的糧食主權的問題啊所以我今天我今天要跟你們講的意思是說那我們這個環境和社會檢核機制它當然有它的作用存在我們希望它法制化"},{"start":883.957,"end":889.642,"text":"署長、部長把這一套環境跟社會檢核機制法制化然後讓它相對於環評它的強度可能沒那麼高但是又可以解決我們在於這個光電營運的這個設置上大家比較容易衝突的說因為資訊不公開嘛現有的機制"},{"start":910.76,"end":927.906,"text":"那如果我們進行環社檢核的時候他必須先檢核整個區域的到底適不適合設置然後就有公民參與的機制進來大家都一起來討論我們這個地區到底合不合適合適的我們就讓他先做有緩衝的也來考慮要緩衝條件是什麼"},{"start":936.289,"end":941.152,"text":"然後不行的我們就把它真的是讓它變成迴避區這樣子避免未來我就要做了你給我環評大家就吵架然後也可以去處理同一塊地區到底我們要設置多少面積要累積多少的這個發電量對這個地方整體的衝擊環境衝擊居住的舒適度的衝擊景觀的衝擊可以降到最低"},{"start":967.01,"end":982.641,"text":"所以我現在要講就把這個環色減和機制那你覺得在你們那麼高的環評門檻跟不需要環評中間把環色減和的這個機制放在哪裡?"},{"start":984.283,"end":986.045,"text":"可以放進來嗎?是啊,現在能源局自己受環社檢核求援兼裁判嘛"},{"start":998.799,"end":1009.363,"text":"連環社檢核都沒有環境部的角色進去他有能力做這一些嗎?生物分布、自然環境狀況的檢視生態系服務功能的確認水鳥、水鳥、鳥類分布的先刊然後他有辦法圖資比對這個生態環境跟這個區域的狀況緩衝區的距離要多少他有辦法知道嗎?"},{"start":1024.09,"end":1031.053,"text":"的專業也不在這裡這是目的事業主管機關環境部的專業所以我現在在講這裡就是說我最後講一個結論我們要擴大光電環評的認定但你的草案標準還沒有出來但現在看到你的門檻是相對高的所以我們今天講說相對於這個門檻那麼高你要設置的那麼高把這個"},{"start":1050.041,"end":1050.102,"text":"林淑芬議員"},{"start":1067.765,"end":1084.732,"text":"你們要提出你們自己的農業部門的空間部門計畫你的整體農業面積要怎麼樣才能達到國家糧食安全的自主不是大家一直找地要設光墊然後你就一直再放出去你的農業部門空間計畫再生能源的空間部門計劃要盤點出環境的資源還有空間規劃的可行性跟"},{"start":1095.077,"end":1096.399,"text":"這些考量跟環評這個認定標準一起都放在一起 這才是完整的啦好 謝謝林淑芬委員 也謝謝部長 請好好研議"}]}}}}