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12:36:33","影片長度":"00:08:09","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、農業部、國家發展委員會、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「加速推動再生能源對國土環境之影響及環境影響評估認定標準修訂進度」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月20日及21日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-7"},"date":"2024-03-21","duration":489,"end_time":"2024-03-21T12:36:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-21T12:28:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1066,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時28分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。我們今天討論能源對國土環境的影響，您是國立大學轉任的部長，而且是校長轉任的部長。首先我想請教的是，能源對於國土環境，除了環境污染以外，還有什麼樣的影響？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，它對包括人文、景觀、產業等等，當然都是有非常密切的關係。"],["陳委員瑩：它也可能會有更好的環境保護，提升生活品質，也有這些正向的影響。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["陳委員瑩：舉例來說，汽油跟柴油的使用，我們有徵收空污費；它雖然產生了空氣污染，但是它或許也可以更有資源來做環保，然後間接也提升了國人的生活品質。我們一般大多是關心能源產生的技術及生產的成本，其實環境污染也是一種成本，所以即使生產能源的成本比較高，但是如果污染的成本比較低的時候，這樣的再生能源其實都是值得我們去探討的、去發展的，但是剛剛講的關鍵在於我們的成本到底要如何可以算得很精確、很準確，而且要讓外界知道。","您在擔任校長任內，在111年4月6號的時候，成立了循環經濟研究學院，對此，我們是非常的敬佩，因為部長您有材料工程背景，所以知道要從經濟學的專業來解決環境的問題。我們看一下簡報，本席在111年10月5日質詢的時候，曾經建議我們張子敬前署長應該要有經濟背景的專業人才，特別是懂得環境經濟學的高階官員。不過，那個時候我們的張前署長好像不是很重視本席所提的這個意見。但我相信，以部長您的專業跟高度，應該會更重視，而且很積極的來延攬人才。我不曉得部長對於我之前建議張前署長的這個意見，您的看法怎麼樣？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上我非常認同，所以像我們的政務次長施文真，他的背景事實上就是國際貿易、人文社科這個領域的專長，以往當然環保署的時代，它是以污染防治的角度來看，所以基本上會比較屬於環工以及工程背景相關的。但是現在環境部已經從污染防治變成預防管理或是環境治理，當然就需要更多的社會科學、人文領域共同進來，包括政策的擬定。的確，我們對於整個環境的永續要如何去發展，應該要更全盤性的、更完整的一個思維，所以你可以看到，包括我們的國環院現在也有一個環境治理研究中心，也有氣候變遷研究中心，裡面的人員最主要是以人文社科領域的背景，所以大方向我們已經朝這樣在走，但是需要給我們一些時間。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝部長，這樣一聽我就比較安心一點，覺得我們有比較多的共鳴。","我們再來看一件事，我上次審你們環境部113年預算的時候，發現你們的研究院在整個研究方向上，好像沒有一個比較好的方向。在這邊我要特別建議部長，希望你們要成立一個專業的研究小組，專門負責做再生能源跟環境污染的成本估算，這件事情很重要。除了做成本估算以外，也應該適時公開讓全民知道。","我舉例來說好了，部長你知不知道你的曾祖父的曾祖父葬在什麼地方？你應該不知道吧？因為你問我，我也是不知道，有誰知道嗎？大部分的人可能不知道。而我們用來發電的核廢料，因為它的半衰期至少有1萬5,000年，這種能源成本如果要精算，則它的安全儲存的成本，一定是遠高於建廠、維運還有生產的成本，而且萬一洩漏，對整個環境還有我們人民健康安全的成本，一定是遠遠超過使用這項能源的效益，但是一般來說，我們常常在比較那個電費，即便有時候政黨之間拿這個來攻擊，大家都只會去算什麼樣的發電、一度是多少錢……"],["薛部長富盛：認同。"],["陳委員瑩：我們大家都是很短視的，只會看一度多少錢，就沒有人去計算……"],["薛部長富盛：環境成本。"],["陳委員瑩：是，建廠成本多少，核廢料儲存成本多少……"],["薛部長富盛：完全認同。"],["陳委員瑩：儲存是一個成本，重點是意外發生的時候，我想那個成本可能我們連去計算成本的機會都沒有，因為我們可能都死光了，可能都已經煙消雲散了。"],["薛部長富盛：完全認同陳委員的看法。"],["陳委員瑩：所以如果我們能夠真正掌握能源的成本，以及考慮風險後實際發生污染的成本，我們就可以避免錯誤政策的制定，部長你認不認同這樣的看法？"],["薛部長富盛：我認同，我剛剛已經講過，陳委員事實上考慮的真的是很周全，而且是長遠而非短視的。"],["陳委員瑩：所以我們今天這個質詢花很多時間講很多話，其實我們就是在講這一個很重要的概念，我們不能很短視，包括整個成本怎麼計算才是最精確的，所以我最後要強調的是，部長您是我們首任的環境部部長，而且又是學者出身，在您制定各項環境政策和法案修訂時，如果有一個充實的科學為基礎，同時我們儲備足夠的經濟專業人才，我相信能夠替我們國家未來再生能源的發展，以及國土環境的保護，找到一個最佳的平衡點；環境部的政策模式，也可以成為其他部會一個學習的典範，我想今天就提出這些跟部長還有環境部所有同仁共勉勵，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員對我們的期許。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢。接下來我們請洪孟楷委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":404,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-7","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王正旭","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:00,709\n委員進行質詢。\n\n2\n00:00:20,521 --> 00:00:40,870\n陳瑩好部長好我們今天討論能源對國土環境的影響您是國立大學轉任的部長而且是校長轉任的部長首先我想請教能源對於國土環境除了環境污染以外還有什麼樣的影響\n\n3\n00:00:42,843 --> 00:01:10,296\n事實上他對包括人文景觀產業等等當然都是有非常密切的關係是他也可能就是會有更好的環境保護來提升這個生活品質也有這些正向的影響那舉例來說汽油跟柴油的使用我們徵收了空污費那他雖然產生了這個就是有產生空氣污染\n\n4\n00:01:10,976 --> 00:01:31,534\n但是呢他或許也可以更有資源來做環保然後間接也提升了國人的生活品質那我們一般就是關心都是這個能源產生的技術跟這個生產的成本那其實環境污染呢其實也是一種成本\n\n5\n00:01:32,415 --> 00:01:47,289\n所以即使說生產能源的成本比較高但是如果汙染的成本是比較低的時候這樣的再生能源其實都是值得我們去探討的好去發展的\n\n6\n00:01:50,506 --> 00:02:15,415\n但是剛剛講的這個關鍵關鍵在於我們成本到底要如何可以算得很精確很準確而且是要讓外界知道那您在擔任校長的任內在111年4月6號的時候有成立了這個循環經濟研究學院我們是非常的敬佩\n\n7\n00:02:16,355 --> 00:02:25,302\n因為部長您是材料工程背景的所以要知道要從經濟學的專業來解決環境的問題我們看一下這個簡報本期在111年10月5日的質詢的時候曾經有建議我們張子信前署長應該要有經濟背景的專業人才\n\n8\n00:02:42,194 --> 00:03:11,008\n特別是懂得環境經濟學的高階官員不過那個時候我們的這個張前署長好像不是很重視本席所提的這個意見不過呢我相信就是說以部長您的這個專業跟高度應該會更重視而且很積極的這個來延攬人才我不曉得部長對於我之前建議張前署長的這個意見你們看法怎麼樣\n\n9\n00:03:11,548 --> 00:03:27,485\n實際上我非常認同所以像譬如說我們的政務次長施文珍他的背景事實上就是國際貿易人文社科這個領域的專長我覺得以往當然環保署的時代他是以污染防治\n\n10\n00:03:27,925 --> 00:03:54,166\n的角度看所以基本上會比較屬於環工以及工程背景相關的但是現在環境部已經從污染防治變成這個一環管理或者說環境治理那當然需要更多社會科學人文領域共同進來包括政策的認定我們對整個環境永續要如何去發展應該要有更全盤性\n\n11\n00:04:17,523 --> 00:04:43,343\n好謝謝部長我這樣一聽我就比較安心一點覺得我們有比較多的共鳴那我們再來看一件事就是在我上次在審你們環境部113年的預算的時候我有發現是你們的研究院在整個研究方向好像沒有一個比較好的方向那在\n\n12\n00:04:44,584 --> 00:05:13,343\n這邊我是建議特別建議部長希望你們要成立一個專業的研究小組那專門來負責做再生能源跟環境污染的成本估算這件事情很重要那除了做這個成本估算以外呢也應該要在事實的時候要公開讓全民知道那我舉例來說好了部長你知不知道你的這個阿祖的阿祖葬在什麼地方\n\n13\n00:05:14,650 --> 00:05:40,444\n阿祖的阿祖你很敢不知道吧?因為你要問我,我也是不知道有誰知道嗎?大部分的人可能不知道啦所以我們用來發電的這個核廢料我要講的是因為它的半衰期至少有一萬五千年那這種能源成本如果說要精算那我們精算就是它的這個\n\n14\n00:05:41,204 --> 00:06:05,334\n安全儲存的成本一定是遠高於這個建廠、維運還有生產的成本而且萬一洩漏對這個整個環境還有我們這個人民的健康安全的成本一定是遠遠超過這個使用這項能源的效益但是一般來說我們常常在計較在比較那個比較那個電費的時候\n\n15\n00:06:31,460 --> 00:06:45,316\n那儲存是一個成本重點是意外發生的時候我想那個成本就不是我們連去計算成本機會都沒有因為我們可能都死光了可能都已經都這個煙消雲散了\n\n16\n00:06:49,656 --> 00:07:07,519\n所以如果我們能夠真正掌握能源的成本然後以及這個考慮風險後實際發生污染的成本那我們就可以避免錯誤的政策的制定部長你認不認同這樣的一個說法我認同我剛剛已經講過這個成本事實上考慮的真的是很周全而且是長遠的\n\n17\n00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:23,405\n今天這個質詢花很多的時間講很多話其實我們就是在講這一個很重要的概念我們不能很短視那整個所有的成本怎麼計算才是最精確的\n\n18\n00:07:23,965 --> 00:07:51,634\n所以我最後要強調的是就是說部長您是我們首任的這個環境部的部長而且又是學者出身那在您制定的各項環境政策和法案修訂如果有一個這個充實的科學為基礎那同時我們儲備足夠的這個經濟專業人才我相信呢能夠替我們國家未來的再生能源的發展以及這個國土環境的保護可以找到一個最佳的平衡點\n\n19\n00:07:52,734 --> 00:08:04,607\n那環境部的政策模式也可以成為其他部會一個學習的典範我想今天就提出這些跟部長還有環境部所有同仁共勉勵謝謝好謝謝陳雯對我們的取喜好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n169\t709\t委員進行質詢。\n20521\t40870\t陳瑩好部長好我們今天討論能源對國土環境的影響您是國立大學轉任的部長而且是校長轉任的部長首先我想請教能源對於國土環境除了環境污染以外還有什麼樣的影響\n42843\t70296\t事實上他對包括人文景觀產業等等當然都是有非常密切的關係是他也可能就是會有更好的環境保護來提升這個生活品質也有這些正向的影響那舉例來說汽油跟柴油的使用我們徵收了空污費那他雖然產生了這個就是有產生空氣污染\n70976\t91534\t但是呢他或許也可以更有資源來做環保然後間接也提升了國人的生活品質那我們一般就是關心都是這個能源產生的技術跟這個生產的成本那其實環境污染呢其實也是一種成本\n92415\t107289\t所以即使說生產能源的成本比較高但是如果汙染的成本是比較低的時候這樣的再生能源其實都是值得我們去探討的好去發展的\n110506\t135415\t但是剛剛講的這個關鍵關鍵在於我們成本到底要如何可以算得很精確很準確而且是要讓外界知道那您在擔任校長的任內在111年4月6號的時候有成立了這個循環經濟研究學院我們是非常的敬佩\n136355\t145302\t因為部長您是材料工程背景的所以要知道要從經濟學的專業來解決環境的問題我們看一下這個簡報本期在111年10月5日的質詢的時候曾經有建議我們張子信前署長應該要有經濟背景的專業人才\n162194\t191008\t特別是懂得環境經濟學的高階官員不過那個時候我們的這個張前署長好像不是很重視本席所提的這個意見不過呢我相信就是說以部長您的這個專業跟高度應該會更重視而且很積極的這個來延攬人才我不曉得部長對於我之前建議張前署長的這個意見你們看法怎麼樣\n191548\t207485\t實際上我非常認同所以像譬如說我們的政務次長施文珍他的背景事實上就是國際貿易人文社科這個領域的專長我覺得以往當然環保署的時代他是以污染防治\n207925\t234166\t的角度看所以基本上會比較屬於環工以及工程背景相關的但是現在環境部已經從污染防治變成這個一環管理或者說環境治理那當然需要更多社會科學人文領域共同進來包括政策的認定我們對整個環境永續要如何去發展應該要有更全盤性\n235247\t257295\t陳瑩 陳瑩\n257523\t283343\t好 謝謝部長我這樣一聽我就比較安心一點覺得我們有比較多的共鳴那我們再來看一件事就是在我上次在審你們環境部113年的預算的時候我有發現是你們的研究院在整個研究方向好像沒有一個比較好的方向那在\n284584\t313343\t這邊我是建議特別建議部長希望你們要成立一個專業的研究小組那專門來負責做再生能源跟環境污染的成本估算這件事情很重要那除了做這個成本估算以外呢也應該要在事實的時候要公開讓全民知道那我舉例來說好了部長你知不知道你的這個阿祖的阿祖葬在什麼地方\n314650\t340444\t阿祖的阿祖你很敢不知道吧?因為你要問我,我也是不知道有誰知道嗎?大部分的人可能不知道啦所以我們用來發電的這個核廢料我要講的是因為它的半衰期至少有一萬五千年那這種能源成本如果說要精算那我們精算就是它的這個\n341204\t365334\t安全儲存的成本一定是遠高於這個建廠、維運還有生產的成本而且萬一洩漏對這個整個環境還有我們這個人民的健康安全的成本一定是遠遠超過這個使用這項能源的效益但是一般來說我們常常在計較在比較那個比較那個電費的時候\n368200\t391220\t⋯⋯⋯\n391460\t405316\t那儲存是一個成本重點是意外發生的時候我想那個成本就不是我們連去計算成本機會都沒有因為我們可能都死光了可能都已經都這個煙消雲散了\n409656\t427519\t所以如果我們能夠真正掌握能源的成本然後以及這個考慮風險後實際發生污染的成本那我們就可以避免錯誤的政策的制定部長你認不認同這樣的一個說法我認同我剛剛已經講過這個成本事實上考慮的真的是很周全而且是長遠的\n429720\t443405\t今天這個質詢花很多的時間講很多話其實我們就是在講這一個很重要的概念我們不能很短視那整個所有的成本怎麼計算才是最精確的\n443965\t471634\t所以我最後要強調的是就是說部長您是我們首任的這個環境部的部長而且又是學者出身那在您制定的各項環境政策和法案修訂如果有一個這個充實的科學為基礎那同時我們儲備足夠的這個經濟專業人才我相信呢能夠替我們國家未來的再生能源的發展以及這個國土環境的保護可以找到一個最佳的平衡點\n472734\t484607\t那環境部的政策模式也可以成為其他部會一個學習的典範我想今天就提出這些跟部長還有環境部所有同仁共勉勵謝謝好謝謝陳雯對我們的取喜好謝謝好謝謝\n","txt":"委員進行質詢。\n陳瑩好部長好我們今天討論能源對國土環境的影響您是國立大學轉任的部長而且是校長轉任的部長首先我想請教能源對於國土環境除了環境污染以外還有什麼樣的影響\n事實上他對包括人文景觀產業等等當然都是有非常密切的關係是他也可能就是會有更好的環境保護來提升這個生活品質也有這些正向的影響那舉例來說汽油跟柴油的使用我們徵收了空污費那他雖然產生了這個就是有產生空氣污染\n但是呢他或許也可以更有資源來做環保然後間接也提升了國人的生活品質那我們一般就是關心都是這個能源產生的技術跟這個生產的成本那其實環境污染呢其實也是一種成本\n所以即使說生產能源的成本比較高但是如果汙染的成本是比較低的時候這樣的再生能源其實都是值得我們去探討的好去發展的\n但是剛剛講的這個關鍵關鍵在於我們成本到底要如何可以算得很精確很準確而且是要讓外界知道那您在擔任校長的任內在111年4月6號的時候有成立了這個循環經濟研究學院我們是非常的敬佩\n因為部長您是材料工程背景的所以要知道要從經濟學的專業來解決環境的問題我們看一下這個簡報本期在111年10月5日的質詢的時候曾經有建議我們張子信前署長應該要有經濟背景的專業人才\n特別是懂得環境經濟學的高階官員不過那個時候我們的這個張前署長好像不是很重視本席所提的這個意見不過呢我相信就是說以部長您的這個專業跟高度應該會更重視而且很積極的這個來延攬人才我不曉得部長對於我之前建議張前署長的這個意見你們看法怎麼樣\n實際上我非常認同所以像譬如說我們的政務次長施文珍他的背景事實上就是國際貿易人文社科這個領域的專長我覺得以往當然環保署的時代他是以污染防治\n的角度看所以基本上會比較屬於環工以及工程背景相關的但是現在環境部已經從污染防治變成這個一環管理或者說環境治理那當然需要更多社會科學人文領域共同進來包括政策的認定我們對整個環境永續要如何去發展應該要有更全盤性\n陳瑩 陳瑩\n好 謝謝部長我這樣一聽我就比較安心一點覺得我們有比較多的共鳴那我們再來看一件事就是在我上次在審你們環境部113年的預算的時候我有發現是你們的研究院在整個研究方向好像沒有一個比較好的方向那在\n這邊我是建議特別建議部長希望你們要成立一個專業的研究小組那專門來負責做再生能源跟環境污染的成本估算這件事情很重要那除了做這個成本估算以外呢也應該要在事實的時候要公開讓全民知道那我舉例來說好了部長你知不知道你的這個阿祖的阿祖葬在什麼地方\n阿祖的阿祖你很敢不知道吧?因為你要問我,我也是不知道有誰知道嗎?大部分的人可能不知道啦所以我們用來發電的這個核廢料我要講的是因為它的半衰期至少有一萬五千年那這種能源成本如果說要精算那我們精算就是它的這個\n安全儲存的成本一定是遠高於這個建廠、維運還有生產的成本而且萬一洩漏對這個整個環境還有我們這個人民的健康安全的成本一定是遠遠超過這個使用這項能源的效益但是一般來說我們常常在計較在比較那個比較那個電費的時候\n⋯⋯⋯\n那儲存是一個成本重點是意外發生的時候我想那個成本就不是我們連去計算成本機會都沒有因為我們可能都死光了可能都已經都這個煙消雲散了\n所以如果我們能夠真正掌握能源的成本然後以及這個考慮風險後實際發生污染的成本那我們就可以避免錯誤的政策的制定部長你認不認同這樣的一個說法我認同我剛剛已經講過這個成本事實上考慮的真的是很周全而且是長遠的\n今天這個質詢花很多的時間講很多話其實我們就是在講這一個很重要的概念我們不能很短視那整個所有的成本怎麼計算才是最精確的\n所以我最後要強調的是就是說部長您是我們首任的這個環境部的部長而且又是學者出身那在您制定的各項環境政策和法案修訂如果有一個這個充實的科學為基礎那同時我們儲備足夠的這個經濟專業人才我相信呢能夠替我們國家未來的再生能源的發展以及這個國土環境的保護可以找到一個最佳的平衡點\n那環境部的政策模式也可以成為其他部會一個學習的典範我想今天就提出這些跟部長還有環境部所有同仁共勉勵謝謝好謝謝陳雯對我們的取喜好謝謝好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.169 --> 00:00.709\n委員進行質詢。\n\n00:20.521 --> 00:40.870\n陳瑩好部長好我們今天討論能源對國土環境的影響您是國立大學轉任的部長而且是校長轉任的部長首先我想請教能源對於國土環境除了環境污染以外還有什麼樣的影響\n\n00:42.843 --> 01:10.296\n事實上他對包括人文景觀產業等等當然都是有非常密切的關係是他也可能就是會有更好的環境保護來提升這個生活品質也有這些正向的影響那舉例來說汽油跟柴油的使用我們徵收了空污費那他雖然產生了這個就是有產生空氣污染\n\n01:10.976 --> 01:31.534\n但是呢他或許也可以更有資源來做環保然後間接也提升了國人的生活品質那我們一般就是關心都是這個能源產生的技術跟這個生產的成本那其實環境污染呢其實也是一種成本\n\n01:32.415 --> 01:47.289\n所以即使說生產能源的成本比較高但是如果汙染的成本是比較低的時候這樣的再生能源其實都是值得我們去探討的好去發展的\n\n01:50.506 --> 02:15.415\n但是剛剛講的這個關鍵關鍵在於我們成本到底要如何可以算得很精確很準確而且是要讓外界知道那您在擔任校長的任內在111年4月6號的時候有成立了這個循環經濟研究學院我們是非常的敬佩\n\n02:16.355 --> 02:25.302\n因為部長您是材料工程背景的所以要知道要從經濟學的專業來解決環境的問題我們看一下這個簡報本期在111年10月5日的質詢的時候曾經有建議我們張子信前署長應該要有經濟背景的專業人才\n\n02:42.194 --> 03:11.008\n特別是懂得環境經濟學的高階官員不過那個時候我們的這個張前署長好像不是很重視本席所提的這個意見不過呢我相信就是說以部長您的這個專業跟高度應該會更重視而且很積極的這個來延攬人才我不曉得部長對於我之前建議張前署長的這個意見你們看法怎麼樣\n\n03:11.548 --> 03:27.485\n實際上我非常認同所以像譬如說我們的政務次長施文珍他的背景事實上就是國際貿易人文社科這個領域的專長我覺得以往當然環保署的時代他是以污染防治\n\n03:27.925 --> 03:54.166\n的角度看所以基本上會比較屬於環工以及工程背景相關的但是現在環境部已經從污染防治變成這個一環管理或者說環境治理那當然需要更多社會科學人文領域共同進來包括政策的認定我們對整個環境永續要如何去發展應該要有更全盤性\n\n04:17.523 --> 04:43.343\n好謝謝部長我這樣一聽我就比較安心一點覺得我們有比較多的共鳴那我們再來看一件事就是在我上次在審你們環境部113年的預算的時候我有發現是你們的研究院在整個研究方向好像沒有一個比較好的方向那在\n\n04:44.584 --> 05:13.343\n這邊我是建議特別建議部長希望你們要成立一個專業的研究小組那專門來負責做再生能源跟環境污染的成本估算這件事情很重要那除了做這個成本估算以外呢也應該要在事實的時候要公開讓全民知道那我舉例來說好了部長你知不知道你的這個阿祖的阿祖葬在什麼地方\n\n05:14.650 --> 05:40.444\n阿祖的阿祖你很敢不知道吧?因為你要問我,我也是不知道有誰知道嗎?大部分的人可能不知道啦所以我們用來發電的這個核廢料我要講的是因為它的半衰期至少有一萬五千年那這種能源成本如果說要精算那我們精算就是它的這個\n\n05:41.204 --> 06:05.334\n安全儲存的成本一定是遠高於這個建廠、維運還有生產的成本而且萬一洩漏對這個整個環境還有我們這個人民的健康安全的成本一定是遠遠超過這個使用這項能源的效益但是一般來說我們常常在計較在比較那個比較那個電費的時候\n\n06:31.460 --> 06:45.316\n那儲存是一個成本重點是意外發生的時候我想那個成本就不是我們連去計算成本機會都沒有因為我們可能都死光了可能都已經都這個煙消雲散了\n\n06:49.656 --> 07:07.519\n所以如果我們能夠真正掌握能源的成本然後以及這個考慮風險後實際發生污染的成本那我們就可以避免錯誤的政策的制定部長你認不認同這樣的一個說法我認同我剛剛已經講過這個成本事實上考慮的真的是很周全而且是長遠的\n\n07:09.720 --> 07:23.405\n今天這個質詢花很多的時間講很多話其實我們就是在講這一個很重要的概念我們不能很短視那整個所有的成本怎麼計算才是最精確的\n\n07:23.965 --> 07:51.634\n所以我最後要強調的是就是說部長您是我們首任的這個環境部的部長而且又是學者出身那在您制定的各項環境政策和法案修訂如果有一個這個充實的科學為基礎那同時我們儲備足夠的這個經濟專業人才我相信呢能夠替我們國家未來的再生能源的發展以及這個國土環境的保護可以找到一個最佳的平衡點\n\n07:52.734 --> 08:04.607\n那環境部的政策模式也可以成為其他部會一個學習的典範我想今天就提出這些跟部長還有環境部所有同仁共勉勵謝謝好謝謝陳雯對我們的取喜好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.169,"end":0.709,"text":"委員進行質詢。"},{"start":20.521,"end":40.87,"text":"陳瑩好部長好我們今天討論能源對國土環境的影響您是國立大學轉任的部長而且是校長轉任的部長首先我想請教能源對於國土環境除了環境污染以外還有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":42.843,"end":70.296,"text":"事實上他對包括人文景觀產業等等當然都是有非常密切的關係是他也可能就是會有更好的環境保護來提升這個生活品質也有這些正向的影響那舉例來說汽油跟柴油的使用我們徵收了空污費那他雖然產生了這個就是有產生空氣污染"},{"start":70.976,"end":91.534,"text":"但是呢他或許也可以更有資源來做環保然後間接也提升了國人的生活品質那我們一般就是關心都是這個能源產生的技術跟這個生產的成本那其實環境污染呢其實也是一種成本"},{"start":92.415,"end":107.289,"text":"所以即使說生產能源的成本比較高但是如果汙染的成本是比較低的時候這樣的再生能源其實都是值得我們去探討的好去發展的"},{"start":110.506,"end":135.415,"text":"但是剛剛講的這個關鍵關鍵在於我們成本到底要如何可以算得很精確很準確而且是要讓外界知道那您在擔任校長的任內在111年4月6號的時候有成立了這個循環經濟研究學院我們是非常的敬佩"},{"start":136.355,"end":145.302,"text":"因為部長您是材料工程背景的所以要知道要從經濟學的專業來解決環境的問題我們看一下這個簡報本期在111年10月5日的質詢的時候曾經有建議我們張子信前署長應該要有經濟背景的專業人才"},{"start":162.194,"end":191.008,"text":"特別是懂得環境經濟學的高階官員不過那個時候我們的這個張前署長好像不是很重視本席所提的這個意見不過呢我相信就是說以部長您的這個專業跟高度應該會更重視而且很積極的這個來延攬人才我不曉得部長對於我之前建議張前署長的這個意見你們看法怎麼樣"},{"start":191.548,"end":207.485,"text":"實際上我非常認同所以像譬如說我們的政務次長施文珍他的背景事實上就是國際貿易人文社科這個領域的專長我覺得以往當然環保署的時代他是以污染防治"},{"start":207.925,"end":234.166,"text":"的角度看所以基本上會比較屬於環工以及工程背景相關的但是現在環境部已經從污染防治變成這個一環管理或者說環境治理那當然需要更多社會科學人文領域共同進來包括政策的認定我們對整個環境永續要如何去發展應該要有更全盤性"},{"start":235.247,"end":257.295,"text":"陳瑩 陳瑩"},{"start":257.523,"end":283.343,"text":"好 謝謝部長我這樣一聽我就比較安心一點覺得我們有比較多的共鳴那我們再來看一件事就是在我上次在審你們環境部113年的預算的時候我有發現是你們的研究院在整個研究方向好像沒有一個比較好的方向那在"},{"start":284.584,"end":313.343,"text":"這邊我是建議特別建議部長希望你們要成立一個專業的研究小組那專門來負責做再生能源跟環境污染的成本估算這件事情很重要那除了做這個成本估算以外呢也應該要在事實的時候要公開讓全民知道那我舉例來說好了部長你知不知道你的這個阿祖的阿祖葬在什麼地方"},{"start":314.65,"end":340.444,"text":"阿祖的阿祖你很敢不知道吧?因為你要問我,我也是不知道有誰知道嗎?大部分的人可能不知道啦所以我們用來發電的這個核廢料我要講的是因為它的半衰期至少有一萬五千年那這種能源成本如果說要精算那我們精算就是它的這個"},{"start":341.204,"end":365.334,"text":"安全儲存的成本一定是遠高於這個建廠、維運還有生產的成本而且萬一洩漏對這個整個環境還有我們這個人民的健康安全的成本一定是遠遠超過這個使用這項能源的效益但是一般來說我們常常在計較在比較那個比較那個電費的時候"},{"start":368.2,"end":391.22,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":391.46,"end":405.316,"text":"那儲存是一個成本重點是意外發生的時候我想那個成本就不是我們連去計算成本機會都沒有因為我們可能都死光了可能都已經都這個煙消雲散了"},{"start":409.656,"end":427.519,"text":"所以如果我們能夠真正掌握能源的成本然後以及這個考慮風險後實際發生污染的成本那我們就可以避免錯誤的政策的制定部長你認不認同這樣的一個說法我認同我剛剛已經講過這個成本事實上考慮的真的是很周全而且是長遠的"},{"start":429.72,"end":443.405,"text":"今天這個質詢花很多的時間講很多話其實我們就是在講這一個很重要的概念我們不能很短視那整個所有的成本怎麼計算才是最精確的"},{"start":443.965,"end":471.634,"text":"所以我最後要強調的是就是說部長您是我們首任的這個環境部的部長而且又是學者出身那在您制定的各項環境政策和法案修訂如果有一個這個充實的科學為基礎那同時我們儲備足夠的這個經濟專業人才我相信呢能夠替我們國家未來的再生能源的發展以及這個國土環境的保護可以找到一個最佳的平衡點"},{"start":472.734,"end":484.607,"text":"那環境部的政策模式也可以成為其他部會一個學習的典範我想今天就提出這些跟部長還有環境部所有同仁共勉勵謝謝好謝謝陳雯對我們的取喜好謝謝好謝謝"}]}}}}