{"id":150295,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7c8e4f03b048d09e610905627eddfc92fd9d093a04e30914f8ba9b0039caa7a6b77dfa5c9f6747f25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"15:49:36 - 16:05:08","影片長度":"00:15:32","會議時間":"2024-03-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-22","duration":932,"end_time":"2024-03-22T16:05:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-22T15:49:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":528,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（15時49分）謝謝院長。有請陳建仁院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：徐委員，午安。"],["徐委員巧芯：首先，剛才葉元之委員質詢NCC主委陳耀祥，陳耀祥說他沒有講是前一任的事情，照片就在這裡。他剛剛沒有帶 iPad上來，沒有辦法秀給大家看。等一下我才會問到NCC主委，但你確實有講是前一任的事情，合先敘明。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我說「前一任」，不是說「前朝」……"],["徐委員巧芯：「前一任的事情」你有沒有說？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那是「前一任」，對啊！沒有錯，是前一任的……"],["陳院長建仁：因為葉委員問他「前朝」。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你說「那是前一任的事情」，這句話我跟您確認您有講。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：什麼？哪一句話？"],["徐委員巧芯：您有講這一句話，叫做「那是前一任的事情」。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊！這個案子是前一任作成的決定。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道了，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：葉委員問他是「前朝」，是葉委員的錯。"],["徐委員巧芯：我幫你們來公道一下，前一任的事情就前一任的事，現在大家知道了，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，是前一任。"],["徐委員巧芯：剛剛葉委員關心有關無人機零件的事情，我也很關心。2023年9月15日蔡總統去視察無人機，當時我們很開心還跟他報告，目前軍用商規非常辛苦、做到了100%沒有中國的零件。我們覺得這是很好的事情，我們就是自己能做就自己做。但是今天他去的時候上面出現的是MIC，這個部分剛剛院長有回答過了。請看所謂的驅動馬達上面不只寫MIC，其實你可以看到什麼？這是由大陸南昌三瑞智能科技股份有限公司製造，而且可以查到售價是369塊美金。針對這次賴準總統去參訪，結果出糗了，請問我們會不會要求這個廠商要具體改善？"],["陳院長建仁：這個廠商自己都已經說了，因為這是在測試的狀況下，他已經裝了在測試，而且……"],["徐委員巧芯：廠商說之後會換，但我要問的不是廠商……"],["陳院長建仁：而且現在臺灣已經可以自己生產了……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們要問的是行政院的態度。"],["陳院長建仁：所以不要為這件事情在那邊大驚小怪。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你覺得發現上面有 MIC是大驚小怪？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！當然，廠商都自己講了，他在測試的過程……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果今天不是記者在現場看得很清楚，是不是不會有人發現有這樣的事情……"],["陳院長建仁：在這裡問這個沒意思啦……"],["徐委員巧芯：是不是後續就沒有人追查了？有人幫你找到上面有 MIC的問題，你竟然說大家大驚小怪！"],["陳院長建仁：你把神聖的民主殿堂拿來做網紅的事。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個跟網紅沒有關係，我沒有提到網紅，那是前一位委員說的……"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才就講了。"],["徐委員巧芯：請不要栽到我的頭上。我是要問行政院的態度，會不會要求廠商未來在參展的時候，也要注意所有的樣品不可以有MIC？還是您認為 MIC如果是在展覽當中OK，只是不能做後續的生產，請問是哪一種態度？"],["陳院長建仁：當然我們是儘可能的不要有MIC。"],["徐委員巧芯：展覽可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：但是在展覽的時候，當然我們會讓廠商再提高警覺。我跟委員報告，發現這件事情以後……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以未來如果在展覽還出現也OK。"],["陳院長建仁：很多廠商不會再使用了，因為已經有國產了。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們知道你的意思了，就是展覽的時候不要大驚小怪，是這個意思？"],["陳院長建仁：對，不需要如此大做文章。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。我們再談一下電價，跟民生有關的事情，大家都很在乎。這一波電價調整平均達到11%，除了民生的部分漲了之外，包含商用也會漲，現在大家很關心的是，如果電價漲了以後，物價會不會漲，尤其大眾運輸。今天要特別跟院長談的是臺鐵、高鐵、捷運跟客運，請問這四種大眾運輸工具會不會漲價？什麼時候拍板？"],["陳院長建仁：先講國道運輸，如果是巴士，大部分都燃油，所以沒有漲價的空間。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以客運不漲價？"],["陳院長建仁：對。第二個是臺鐵，臺鐵很早以前就說要調整票價，原因是臺鐵已經有29年的時間……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個我們清楚，臺鐵什麼時候會確定要漲價、漲多少錢……"],["陳院長建仁：臺鐵現在還在研議過程當中……"],["徐委員巧芯：審議大概在什麼時間點？國人可能會很希望知道。"],["陳院長建仁：他們還沒提出來。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有確認大概在什麼時間？比如4月、5月、6月，他們會去做相關的審議、會拍板，時間點方面……"],["陳院長建仁：這是臺鐵公司……"],["王部長國材：因為他們現在公司化，事實上在初擬，通過董事會以後就會送交通費率審議委員會，所以可能還有一段時間，不是馬上。"],["徐委員巧芯：還有一段時間？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：再來就是高鐵的部分會漲價嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：高鐵也是一個公司。"],["徐委員巧芯：知道。"],["陳院長建仁：電的成本實際上對他們來說占比不高。高鐵去年的營運有蠻好的盈餘，我們當然是呼籲高鐵不要……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以不漲價的機會比較高？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：這是高鐵部分。再來我要特別跟你們討論的是有關捷運部分，因為電費占捷運成本非常高……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：臺北捷運占13%，高雄占14%，如果你覺得13%占整個營運成本不高，我尊重，但是我作為過去臺北市議員、臺北市的立委，我覺得電費占捷運成本13%，還有高雄占14%，對於捷運來說是相當大的壓力，所以我想請問，如果地方這邊呼籲希望中央能夠凍漲捷運電價，或者調漲以後給予電價優惠或補助，政院會同意嗎？態度是什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：委員你比我還清楚，現在在高雄或臺北，大部分的人都是用TPASS，而TPASS絕對不會漲價，而且TPASS一直要到……"],["徐委員巧芯：TPASS不會漲價我們知道，我是說單一票價的部分。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！TPASS不會漲價，而TPASS占了所有臺北捷運跟高雄捷運的最大部分，如果TPASS沒有漲價，而為了少數沒有用TPASS的人……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那請問一下，我們在臺北……"],["陳院長建仁：北捷跟高捷要漲價，我覺得……"],["徐委員巧芯：瞭解了，臺北、桃園、高雄……"],["陳院長建仁：民眾會覺得很奇怪啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：這些捷運公司，如果在地方上，其實它是不分縣市，就是有捷運的地方政府，如果希望政府對於他們的捷運電費凍漲或予以補助，政院有相關的規劃嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：捷運是地方政府管理的，你講對了，捷運的費率是由地方政府決定，我剛才講過，因為大部分人搭的都是用TPASS，地方政府有這樣的數據，他要漲價，他沒有那個正當性……"],["徐委員巧芯：喔！我知道，我已經知道不漲價了，我是問說有沒有規劃對於捷運相關電費的補貼或是凍漲？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，目前沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好，我清楚了。","接下來我想要回到NCC的問題，剛才主委談到所謂的「鳳凰雲」案件，你覺得這個哪有敗訴！好，我給你正名一下法律名詞，它不是敗訴，但是它叫做再審原告之訴駁回，也就是說，你們當時希望聲請包含再議等等是被駁回了，主委可不可以說明一下，你們被駁回的理由是什麼？你清楚嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上我們在認定一個個案要不要構成裁罰，在初審會有比如諮詢委員會，然後還有7個委員來作成那個討論，討論完的結果，當然後來法院並不支持我們認定要裁罰的部分，就是說這涉及到我們的標準、我們的認定方式，法院可能認為這個認定方式應該改善。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，如果你們現在在30天內有新事證可以聲請再議，請問目前對本案的態度，NCC會聲請再議嗎？還是接受這次被駁回的結果？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：關於這個再審，基本上法律的部分是可以再審，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們還會繼續……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們會內部再溝通，可能應該就不會再提了。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們要內部溝通多久？大家對這個事情很想瞭解……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，委員，這是一個個案而已啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：我們這麼久才有一次在這裡詢問你的機會，如果你都說要帶回去討論，那下一次見到你也不知道什麼時候……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我們是合議制……"],["陳院長建仁：合議制。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是我個人的問題……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，對，所以你們要大家共同討論完之後……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們要判斷說像這種類型的案件，以後會有……"],["徐委員巧芯：你講到重點了！你們是合議制，可是諮詢委員會16個人裡面，有12個人認為這個新聞沒有違法，只有4個人認為有新聞違法的問題，在決議發函要求改進的時候，你們還是罰人家40萬啊！你們不能說有爭議的時候，就說要帶回去討論，因為我們是合議制，結果呢？你想要罰人家的時候，上面法院寫得非常清楚，即便有12個委員認為沒有違法，也決定發函改進……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，利用這個機會，我可以跟你說明一下嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：結果有沒有照罰？如果沒有照罰，會讓你說明……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，沒有……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果沒有照罰的話，你今天根本不用浪費人民的公帑，不斷的去打這個官司。來！請你說明。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上來講，這個諮詢會議，本來就叫做諮詢會議，在法定程序上，外部的委員所討論的部分，他們的意見要不要採納，最後還是有7個委員要去討論的問題……"],["徐委員巧芯：那就是白討論就對了……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，不是白討論，我們還是有討論問題……"],["徐委員巧芯：反正我想參考，覺得跟我的想法一致，我就參考，然後如果出狀況，就說那是諮詢委員給我們的意見……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個我們是7個委員去討論問題……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果覺得你的想法跟我不一樣，那這只是參考用的……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，你不能說……"],["徐委員巧芯：我不一定要聽你的意見，就是這個意思。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不，不，程序上本來就是這樣嘛！它本來叫諮詢會，諮詢會來講，如果大家認為這個合理……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你到現在還是認為當時NCC的處理方式，16個人裡面有12個諮詢委員認為沒有問題，然後他們決定要發函改進就好……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們這種情形，我們這種情形……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們卻去罰對方，主委，從你個人的角度來說，不要管到上一任，你覺得當時NCC的處理方式是正確，還是錯誤？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：程序上沒有問題，而且我們這種案子類型也有，只是案子不是很多，但既然這是7個委員共同討論出來的，這就是我們的決定。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，未來審查預算的時候，這是我們的決定，你們真的浪費太多的資源在打官司了……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有浪費的問題、沒有浪費……"],["徐委員巧芯：不斷的再審、不斷的對一個案子再打又打，上一任的主委……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，不斷的針對中天發言的是你們，中天只是一個案子、一家公司，我們監理的公司非常多，不是只有中天一家而已。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們濫打官司的也不只是針對中天，我只是舉這個個案跟你們討論啦！上一任主委他們編了多少的訴訟費？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個要去查一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：你編了多少訴訟費？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們訴訟費是有增加沒有錯啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：你知道你們增加了非常多倍嗎？所以……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個議題我們就此打住……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們的救濟程序有改正過……"],["徐委員巧芯：本席接下來想要問一下數發部的部分，我們請部長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為以後我們沒有經過行政院的訴願就直接訴訟了喔！"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝，我們已經聽懂你的意思了好嗎？我們接下來請數發部。"],["主席：請數發部。"],["徐委員巧芯：院長，我記得上一次柯志恩委員問你覺得數發部做得怎樣的時候，你問他說股市上2萬點你不開心嗎？我個人沒什麼感覺，我沒有買股票，可是我很在意的是我們編列預算有沒有按照實際的單位數去編列。一般我們會認為政府部門裡面最常出國的可能會是僑委會，可是我們比較了數發部跟僑委會的出國項目、天數跟出國人數之後，發現數位發展部的出國比僑委會還厲害，出國總天數數發部329天，僑委會295天，出國人數也比僑委會多，總費用也比它來得多。於是我們就想進一步追查你們預算的編列到底合不合情理，問題可能就會在於浮報。","我們來看下一張投影片，我們針對亞洲的部分做了一個整理，光是亞洲部分，四趟當中有三趟安排的是商務艙，照理來說，這也代表是高階公務人員在出國，而且我們詳細看了之後，發現有很多費用其實有對不起來的情況。我們再看下一張投影片。我們直接把去的同一個國家拿出來比較，紅色的是舊金山，總共有三個，藍色是倫敦，另外還有綠色的是華盛頓。我們可以看到你去同一個國家，可是預算編列的標準根本不一樣，同一個國家、同一個城市每次的平均價格都不同，代表你的預算評估標準是不一樣的，跟數位發展部之前告訴我們說你們是按照公務體系去編列是不一樣的，可以說明一下為什麼會有這種情況嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：當然，因為無論是次長、司長或者署長出席，他按照我們報支費用的標準是坐不同的艙等，所以當然就會有不同的……"],["徐委員巧芯：這都一樣是商務艙，我們都精心幫你挑過了……"],["唐部長鳳：還有不同的季節跟不同的地區……"],["徐委員巧芯：你看我們列的是平均交通費的部分就都不一樣，你剛剛講到第二個問題了，你們在預算跟預估的價格上面實際落差是非常、非常大的。我們看下一張投影片，我們幫你都找出來了，以7月8日到11日你們預計要出國的時間來說，它的價差可說是非常的大。我們都講商務艙，到首爾網路上報價3萬3,000，你們編了9.6萬；到新加坡網路上報價3萬4,000，你們報的是7萬；到東京的商務艙報價也有很大的價差。這代表你們當時在預算編列的時候就編得過高了，有沒有管理上面的問題？"],["唐部長鳳：您挑的這些是沒有辦法改時間、沒有辦法退票的那一種價格，跟我們這種可以改時間的來比。但是我們實際上用的時候，如果有較低的價錢是按照實報實支來使用。"],["徐委員巧芯：我跟你講，我把各種的都查過了啦，不是你說的那樣子，實際上你們當初估的票價就是比較高，我把可以改票的也列進去了，還是一樣的狀況。不好意思，我很貼心的都替你想過了……"],["唐部長鳳：我們可以會後用書面來比較。"],["徐委員巧芯：再來還不只這樣，院長您可以看看你們的部長在整個預算編列的時候問題多大！下一張投影片也一樣，我們在3月6日跟3月15日的時候請數發部提供相關的資訊，數發部出席亞太網路資訊中心會議要去紐西蘭跟日本，可是它根本是在曼谷舉行的，而且在2月21日到3月1日就辦完了。結果數發部不知道，還提供給我們資料說你們要去泰國，結果根本已經辦完了！這根本和你們說要去日本是完全不一樣的，請問為什麼會有數發部連自己要去哪個國家都沒有辦法掌握的情況？"],["唐部長鳳：APNIC有相當多相關會議，這個部分我們是不是會後用書面來提供給委員？"],["徐委員巧芯：你看你們答不出來的時候就說會後，我時間也不夠了啦……"],["陳院長建仁：這個太細了啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：院長，請你評估一下好不好？不是太細，這是已經去完的，然後我們問他們去了哪裡，結果他們提供給我們的資料是錯誤的，代表他們完全沒有掌握數發部自己編了這麼多錢出國去了哪兒。","院長，最後一點時間可不可以說明一下，我剛剛提到數發部的這些問題，您同意嗎？您覺得合理嗎？有沒有需要修正的空間、檢討的必要性？"],["陳院長建仁：我想他們提供的資料應該更詳細，讓委員能夠瞭解。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是詳細，是很詳細，但是是錯的，好嗎？"],["主席：謝謝徐委員巧芯的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第17號陳委員冠廷質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳超明","涂權吉","顏寬恒","廖先翔","吳琪銘","吳沛憶","游顥","林倩綺","葉元之","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","羅明才","賴瑞隆","郭國文","黃捷","楊曜","王美惠","魯明哲","賴惠員","林楚茵","王世堅"],"page_start":38,"meetingDate":["2024-03-22"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00002","1131401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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\"這個跟網紅沒有關係,我沒有提到網紅,這是前一位委員說的,請不要猜到我的頭上。我是要問行政院的態度會不會要求廠商未來在參展的時候也要注意我們所有的樣品上面也不可以是MIC,還是您認為MIC如果是在展覽當中OK,只是你不能做後續的生產,請問是哪一種態度?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 170.39, \"end\": 170.93, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"網\"}, {\"word\": \"紅\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 170.93, \"end\": 171.03, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 171.03, \"end\": 171.471, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 171.471, \"end\": 171.591, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 171.591, \"end\": 171.611, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 171.611, \"end\": 171.791, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 171.791, \"end\": 171.911, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 171.911, \"end\": 172.591, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"網\"}, {\"word\": \"紅\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 172.591, \"end\": 172.831, 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\"下\", \"start\": 216.98, \"end\": 217.02, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"片\", \"start\": 217.02, \"end\": 217.341, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 217.341, \"end\": 217.541, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 217.541, \"end\": 217.741, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 217.741, \"end\": 217.901, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 217.901, \"end\": 218.242, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 218.242, \"end\": 218.362, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 218.362, \"end\": 218.502, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 218.502, \"end\": 218.702, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 218.702, \"end\": 218.882, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 218.882, \"end\": 219.062, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 219.062, \"end\": 219.162, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 219.162, \"end\": 219.302, \"score\": 0.815}, 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{\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 406.109, \"end\": 420.701, \"text\": \"徐巧芯是地方政府管理講對了,但捷運的費率呢是由地方政府來決定。那我剛才講過因為大部分搭的都是用TPAS那地方政府有這樣的一個數據他要漲價他沒有那個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"徐\", \"start\": 406.109, \"end\": 406.79, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"巧\", \"start\": 406.79, \"end\": 406.93, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"芯\", \"start\": 406.93, \"end\": 407.11, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 407.11, \"end\": 407.27, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 407.27, \"end\": 407.35, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 407.35, \"end\": 407.55, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 407.55, \"end\": 407.65, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 407.65, \"end\": 407.81, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 407.81, \"end\": 407.971, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 407.971, \"end\": 408.491, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 408.491, \"end\": 408.691, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"駁\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 448.591, \"end\": 449.191, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 449.191, \"end\": 449.291, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 449.291, \"end\": 449.451, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 449.451, \"end\": 449.611, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 449.611, \"end\": 450.412, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 450.412, \"end\": 450.592, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 450.592, \"end\": 450.792, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 450.792, \"end\": 451.213, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 451.213, \"end\": 451.373, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 451.373, \"end\": 451.553, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 451.553, \"end\": 451.753, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 451.753, 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\"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 456.756, \"end\": 456.936, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 456.936, \"end\": 457.036, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 457.036, \"end\": 457.277, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 457.277, \"end\": 457.457, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 457.457, \"end\": 457.697, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 457.697, \"end\": 457.717, \"score\": 0.034}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 468.924, \"end\": 494.315, \"text\": \"那討論完的結果來講當然後來法院並不支持我們這個認定要採訪的部分就是說這個是涉及說我們的標準我們的認定的方式法院可能他認為他的認定方式應該改善。那麼呢你們現在如果有30天有新事證可以申請在役請問目前對本案的態度NCC這裡會申請在役嗎還是接受這一次被迫回的結果在審就是說基本上這法律的部分我們整理在審嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 468.924, \"end\": 469.044, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 469.044, \"end\": 469.464, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 469.464, \"end\": 469.785, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 917.758, \"end\": 918.078, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 918.078, \"end\": 918.238, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 918.238, \"end\": 918.398, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 918.398, \"end\": 918.418, \"score\": 0.287}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 919.538, \"end\": 919.698, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 919.698, \"end\": 920.338, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 920.338, \"end\": 920.659, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 920.659, \"end\": 920.759, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 920.759, \"end\": 920.919, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 920.919, \"end\": 921.099, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 921.099, \"end\": 921.239, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 921.239, \"end\": 921.479, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 921.479, \"end\": 922.78, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 922.78, \"end\": 922.92, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 922.92, \"end\": 923.0, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 923.0, \"end\": 923.22, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 923.22, \"end\": 923.24, \"score\": 0.567}, {\"word\": \"?\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:13,473\n謝謝院長。我想有請我們陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備詢。主委午安\n\n2\n00:00:23,807 --> 00:00:47,990\n首先剛才葉元之委員講說這個NCC主委陳耀祥說陳耀祥說沒有講說是前一任的事情,他剛剛沒有帶iPad上來,沒有辦法show給大家看,但是我必須說,等一下我才會問到這個NCC主委,但是你確實有講是前一任的事情,和先續名。我說前任不是說前草,我剛才跟他講。前一任的事情你有沒有說?\n\n3\n00:00:48,710 --> 00:01:13,980\n那是前任,對啊,沒有說是前任的會員,對,好,所以他說你說的是那是前一任的事情,這句話我跟您確認您有講。什麼,哪一句話?您有講這一句話叫做那是前一任的事情。對啊,前任的,這個案子是前任做成的決定啊。我知道了,謝謝。葉委員問他是前草啦,葉委員晒的錯了。我幫你們來這個公道一下嘛,前一任的事情就前一任的事,現在大家知道了好嗎?\n\n4\n00:01:14,820 --> 00:01:39,580\n我想今天剛剛那個議員關心的有關這個無人機零件的事情我也很關心就是說呢2023年9月15號的時候這個蔡總統去視察無人機當時我們很開心還跟他報告說呢我們目前軍用的商規非常辛苦做到了100%沒有中國的零件我們覺得是很好的事情啊我們就是自己能做就自己做\n\n5\n00:01:40,000 --> 00:02:03,798\n但是呢今天他去的時候出現上面是MIC這個部分剛剛院長你有回答過了但我想請看下一張這個所謂的馬達齁驅動馬達上面呢不只他MIC喔其實你可以看到什麼在大陸的南昌三瑞智能科技股份有限公司製造而且可以查到售價是369塊美金我想問一下喔\n\n6\n00:02:04,238 --> 00:02:32,312\n那針對這次賴準總統去參訪那結果呢出糗了請問我們會不會要求這個廠商要做具體的改善這個廠商自己都已經說了啦說因為這是在測試的狀況下他已經裝了在測試而且現在台灣已經可以自己生產了所以不要對這件事情在那邊大驚小怪沒有所以你覺得發現上面有MIC是大驚小怪\n\n7\n00:02:33,112 --> 00:02:39,819\n對啊當然這廠商都自己講了他在測試的過程好像在這裡問這個沒意思啦這不是你把你把神聖的民主殿堂拿來做這個網紅的事\n\n8\n00:02:50,390 --> 00:03:12,701\n這個跟網紅沒有關係,我沒有提到網紅,這是前一位委員說的,請不要猜到我的頭上。我是要問行政院的態度會不會要求廠商未來在參展的時候也要注意我們所有的樣品上面也不可以是MIC,還是您認為MIC如果是在展覽當中OK,只是你不能做後續的生產,請問是哪一種態度?\n\n9\n00:03:13,781 --> 00:03:39,763\n當然我們是盡可能的不要有這個MIC啊。但是在展覽的時候當然我們會讓廠商再提高警覺。當然我跟委員報告發現這件事情以後很多的廠商不會再使用了啦。很多廠商不會再使用。因為已經有國產了。已經有國產了。對。好那我們再談一下片價跟民生有關的事情大家都很在乎喔。\n\n10\n00:03:40,163 --> 00:03:57,533\n那這一波電價調整平均達到11%那民生的部分漲了之外呢還有包含商用我會漲大家很關心的是啊現在呢如果電價漲了以後物價會不會漲尤其大眾運輸今天要特別跟這個院長來談的是臺鐵、高鐵、捷運跟客運請問這四種大眾運輸工具會不會漲價什麼時候拍板\n\n11\n00:04:05,247 --> 00:04:25,552\n好,這個先講國道運輸啦,如果說是燃油的巴士的部分,大部分都燃油,所以沒有漲價的空間啦。所以客戶不漲價。對,然後第二個呢,就是台鐵的部分,台鐵很早以前就說要調整這個票價,它的原因是因為台鐵已經有29年的時間。\n\n12\n00:04:27,672 --> 00:04:34,998\n臺鐵現在還在研議過程當中,那他們還沒提出來嗎?他們還沒有提出來,那我們有確認說大概在什麼時間,比如說4月、5月、6月他們會去做相關的審議,會拍板。那這是臺鐵公司?因為他們現在是公司化,他處理,事實上在處理啦。然後他通過這個董事會以後就送我們的交通費力審議委員會。\n\n13\n00:04:54,855 --> 00:05:03,807\n所以現在這個時間可能還有一段時間,不是馬上。那再來就是高鐵的部分會漲價嗎?好,高鐵的部分,高鐵也是一個公司。那這個電的成本實際上對他們來說佔比不高。\n\n14\n00:05:09,975 --> 00:05:27,299\n那台鐵那個高鐵呢去年的營運呢是有蠻好的盈餘的那我們當然是呼籲這個高鐵不要高鐵部分那再來我要特別跟你們討論的是有關於捷運喔因為捷運電費站捷運的成本非常的高\n\n15\n00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:28,740\n徐巧芯\n\n16\n00:05:48,183 --> 00:05:51,705\n委員你比我還清楚現在大部分在高雄或者是在臺北大家用那個TPAS\n\n17\n00:06:05,325 --> 00:06:25,160\n那T-PASS絕對不會漲價,而且T-PASS一直要到...T-PASS不會漲價我們知道,我們是說單一票價的部分。對啊,那這T-PASS不會漲價的話,T-PASS占了所有的台北捷運跟高雄捷運的最大的部分。那如果T-PASS沒有漲價的時候,那為了那個少數沒有用T-PASS的人,\n\n18\n00:06:25,540 --> 00:06:43,526\n那請問一下我們在臺北,我覺得民眾會覺得很奇怪啦。這一些捷運公司如果說在地方上面,它其實不分縣市啦,有捷運的地方政府希望說政府對於他們的捷運電費動漲或補助的部分,政院有相關的規劃嗎?\n\n19\n00:06:46,109 --> 00:07:00,701\n徐巧芯是地方政府管理講對了,但捷運的費率呢是由地方政府來決定。那我剛才講過因為大部分搭的都是用TPAS那地方政府有這樣的一個數據他要漲價他沒有那個\n\n20\n00:07:02,068 --> 00:07:03,550\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n21\n00:07:18,504 --> 00:07:37,717\n您是覺得說呢這個哪有敗訴喔那這個呢好我給你證明一下法律名詞它不是敗訴但是呢它叫做再審原告之訴駁回也就是說你們當時希望申請包含是在意等等的被駁回了我想問一下主委可不可以說明一下你們被駁回的理由是什麼您清楚嗎\n\n22\n00:07:48,924 --> 00:08:14,315\n那討論完的結果來講當然後來法院並不支持我們這個認定要採訪的部分就是說這個是涉及說我們的標準我們的認定的方式法院可能他認為他的認定方式應該改善。那麼呢你們現在如果有30天有新事證可以申請在役請問目前對本案的態度NCC這裡會申請在役嗎還是接受這一次被迫回的結果在審就是說基本上這法律的部分我們整理在審嗎\n\n23\n00:08:14,735 --> 00:08:15,456\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n24\n00:08:32,878 --> 00:08:33,819\n像這種類型的案件以後我會了解。\n\n25\n00:08:48,692 --> 00:09:14,330\n你們還是罰人家40萬啊。你們不能說有爭議的時候要帶回去討論因為我們是要合一致。結果呢你想要罰人家的時候即便上面法院寫得非常的清楚12個委員認為沒有違法也決定發函改進。結果有沒有造罰?如果沒有造罰的話你今天根本不用浪費人民的公帑不斷的去打這個官司。來請你說明。\n\n26\n00:09:15,211 --> 00:09:39,706\n基本上來講這個諮詢會議來講的話本來它叫做諮詢會議我們在法定程序上外部的委員所討論的這個部分他的意見要不要採納最後還是七個委員要去討論的問題反正我想參考你們覺得跟我的想法一致我就參考然後如果出狀況就是說那是諮詢委員給我們的意見那如果說我覺得你的想法跟我不一樣因為這只是參考用的我不一定要聽\n\n27\n00:09:39,906 --> 00:09:43,268\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧\n\n28\n00:10:09,261 --> 00:10:09,621\n徐巧芯\n\n29\n00:10:26,033 --> 00:10:39,820\n不斷的針對中天發言的是你們,中天只是一個案子和一家公司,我們監理的公司非常多,不是只有中天一家而已。因為你們論壇官司的也不只針對中天,我只是舉這個個案跟你討論啦,上一任的主委他們編了多少的訴訟費?\n\n30\n00:10:41,311 --> 00:10:42,792\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n31\n00:11:02,310 --> 00:11:16,158\n嗯,院長我記得上一次有柯智恩委員問你說覺得速發部這個做得怎樣的時候你問他說呢欸股市兩萬點你不開心嗎我個人沒什麼感覺我沒有買股票可是我很在意的是我們編列預算有沒有按照實際的單位數去編列喔\n\n32\n00:11:18,839 --> 00:11:35,927\n我們一般會想說我們政府部門裡面最常出國的可能會是僑委會可是我們卻比較了術發部跟僑委會的這個出國的項目天數跟出國人數之後發現數位發展部的出國比僑委會還厲害出國總天數術發部329天僑委會295天出國人數也比僑委會多總費用也比他來的多\n\n33\n00:11:43,411 --> 00:12:04,270\n那再來我們就想進一步的來追查說你們在這個預算的編列到底合不合情理問題可能就會在於福報看下一張投影片我們針對亞洲的部分做了一個整理喔光是亞洲部分呢四趟有三趟安排的是商務艙照理來說這也代表說是高階公務人員在出國\n\n34\n00:12:05,051 --> 00:12:32,211\n而且這個我們去詳細看之後很多的費用其實有對不起來的情況我們看下一張投影片我們直接把去的同一個國家拿出來比較紅色的是舊金山三個然後藍色是倫敦然後還有綠色是華盛頓你可以看到的是你去同一個國家可是預算編列的標準根本不一樣同一個國家同一個城市每次的平均價格都不同\n\n35\n00:12:32,671 --> 00:12:37,812\n當然,因為無論是次長或者司長或者署長出席,他按照我們的這個報紙費用的標準,他是做不同的艙等,所以當然就會有不同的...這都是一樣的商務艙,我們都幫你挑過了。\n\n36\n00:12:57,916 --> 00:13:00,858\n您剛講到第二個問題了。你們在預算跟預估的價格上面實際落差是非常非常大的。\n\n37\n00:13:15,626 --> 00:13:44,093\n我們看下一張投影片我們幫你都找出來了以7月8號到11號也就是你們要預計出國的時間來說它的價差可以說是非常的大首爾商務艙我們都講商務艙網路上報價3萬3你們編了9點6萬新加坡網上3萬4你們報的是7萬東京的部分的商務艙的報價也有很大的價差這代表你們當時在預算編列的時候就編的過高了有沒有管理上面的問題\n\n38\n00:13:45,093 --> 00:14:08,361\n您挑的這個是沒有辦法改時間沒有辦法退票的那種價格然後跟我們這種可以改時間的來比但是我們實際上用的時候如果有較低的價錢是按照時報時值來使用我都把各種的都查過了啦不是你說的那樣子實際上你們當初估的票價就是比較高我把可以改票的也列進去了還是一樣的狀況不好意思我很貼心的都替你想過了\n\n39\n00:14:09,981 --> 00:14:30,143\n還有再來還不只這樣部長您院長您可以看看你們的部長在整個預算編列的時候問題多大下一張投影片一樣我們在3月6號跟3月15號的時候請速發部提供相關的資訊速發部出席這個亞太網路資訊中心的會議要去紐西蘭跟日本可是他根本是在曼谷舉行的\n\n40\n00:14:30,563 --> 00:14:49,000\n在2月21日到3月1日就辦完了。訴發部不知道還提供給我們資料說你們要去泰國。結果根本已經辦完了。根本就要說要去日本。完全不一樣的。所以請問為什麼你們會有訴發部連自己要去哪個國家都沒有辦法掌握的情況。\n\n41\n00:14:50,209 --> 00:15:18,418\nAPNIC有相當多相關會議喔那這個部分我們是不是會後用書面來提供這個問題?你看你們答不出來的時候做做會口我時間也不夠了啦院長我請你評估一下好不好不是太細是已經去完的然後我們問你去了哪裡他們提供給我們的是錯誤的代表他們完全沒有掌握自己速發布編了這麼多錢出國去了哪院長最後一點時間可以說明一下我剛剛所提到的剛才速發布的這些問題您同意嗎?您覺得合理嗎?\n\n42\n00:15:19,538 --> 00:15:23,240\n有沒有需要修正的空間?檢討的必要性?\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t13473\t謝謝院長。我想有請我們陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備詢。主委午安\n23807\t47990\t首先剛才葉元之委員講說這個NCC主委陳耀祥說陳耀祥說沒有講說是前一任的事情,他剛剛沒有帶iPad上來,沒有辦法show給大家看,但是我必須說,等一下我才會問到這個NCC主委,但是你確實有講是前一任的事情,和先續名。我說前任不是說前草,我剛才跟他講。前一任的事情你有沒有說?\n48710\t73980\t那是前任,對啊,沒有說是前任的會員,對,好,所以他說你說的是那是前一任的事情,這句話我跟您確認您有講。什麼,哪一句話?您有講這一句話叫做那是前一任的事情。對啊,前任的,這個案子是前任做成的決定啊。我知道了,謝謝。葉委員問他是前草啦,葉委員晒的錯了。我幫你們來這個公道一下嘛,前一任的事情就前一任的事,現在大家知道了好嗎?\n74820\t99580\t我想今天剛剛那個議員關心的有關這個無人機零件的事情我也很關心就是說呢2023年9月15號的時候這個蔡總統去視察無人機當時我們很開心還跟他報告說呢我們目前軍用的商規非常辛苦做到了100%沒有中國的零件我們覺得是很好的事情啊我們就是自己能做就自己做\n100000\t123798\t但是呢今天他去的時候出現上面是MIC這個部分剛剛院長你有回答過了但我想請看下一張這個所謂的馬達齁驅動馬達上面呢不只他MIC喔其實你可以看到什麼在大陸的南昌三瑞智能科技股份有限公司製造而且可以查到售價是369塊美金我想問一下喔\n124238\t152312\t那針對這次賴準總統去參訪那結果呢出糗了請問我們會不會要求這個廠商要做具體的改善這個廠商自己都已經說了啦說因為這是在測試的狀況下他已經裝了在測試而且現在台灣已經可以自己生產了所以不要對這件事情在那邊大驚小怪沒有所以你覺得發現上面有MIC是大驚小怪\n153112\t159819\t對啊當然這廠商都自己講了他在測試的過程好像在這裡問這個沒意思啦這不是你把你把神聖的民主殿堂拿來做這個網紅的事\n170390\t192701\t這個跟網紅沒有關係,我沒有提到網紅,這是前一位委員說的,請不要猜到我的頭上。我是要問行政院的態度會不會要求廠商未來在參展的時候也要注意我們所有的樣品上面也不可以是MIC,還是您認為MIC如果是在展覽當中OK,只是你不能做後續的生產,請問是哪一種態度?\n193781\t219763\t當然我們是盡可能的不要有這個MIC啊。但是在展覽的時候當然我們會讓廠商再提高警覺。當然我跟委員報告發現這件事情以後很多的廠商不會再使用了啦。很多廠商不會再使用。因為已經有國產了。已經有國產了。對。好那我們再談一下片價跟民生有關的事情大家都很在乎喔。\n220163\t237533\t那這一波電價調整平均達到11%那民生的部分漲了之外呢還有包含商用我會漲大家很關心的是啊現在呢如果電價漲了以後物價會不會漲尤其大眾運輸今天要特別跟這個院長來談的是臺鐵、高鐵、捷運跟客運請問這四種大眾運輸工具會不會漲價什麼時候拍板\n245247\t265552\t好,這個先講國道運輸啦,如果說是燃油的巴士的部分,大部分都燃油,所以沒有漲價的空間啦。所以客戶不漲價。對,然後第二個呢,就是台鐵的部分,台鐵很早以前就說要調整這個票價,它的原因是因為台鐵已經有29年的時間。\n267672\t274998\t臺鐵現在還在研議過程當中,那他們還沒提出來嗎?他們還沒有提出來,那我們有確認說大概在什麼時間,比如說4月、5月、6月他們會去做相關的審議,會拍板。那這是臺鐵公司?因為他們現在是公司化,他處理,事實上在處理啦。然後他通過這個董事會以後就送我們的交通費力審議委員會。\n294855\t303807\t所以現在這個時間可能還有一段時間,不是馬上。那再來就是高鐵的部分會漲價嗎?好,高鐵的部分,高鐵也是一個公司。那這個電的成本實際上對他們來說佔比不高。\n309975\t327299\t那台鐵那個高鐵呢去年的營運呢是有蠻好的盈餘的那我們當然是呼籲這個高鐵不要 高鐵部分那再來我要特別跟你們討論的是有關於捷運喔因為捷運電費站捷運的成本非常的高\n328160\t328740\t徐巧芯\n348183\t351705\t委員你比我還清楚現在大部分在高雄或者是在臺北大家用那個TPAS\n365325\t385160\t那T-PASS絕對不會漲價,而且T-PASS一直要到...T-PASS不會漲價我們知道,我們是說單一票價的部分。對啊,那這T-PASS不會漲價的話,T-PASS占了所有的台北捷運跟高雄捷運的最大的部分。那如果T-PASS沒有漲價的時候,那為了那個少數沒有用T-PASS的人,\n385540\t403526\t那請問一下我們在臺北,我覺得民眾會覺得很奇怪啦。這一些捷運公司如果說在地方上面,它其實不分縣市啦,有捷運的地方政府希望說政府對於他們的捷運電費動漲或補助的部分,政院有相關的規劃嗎?\n406109\t420701\t徐巧芯是地方政府管理講對了,但捷運的費率呢是由地方政府來決定。那我剛才講過因為大部分搭的都是用TPAS那地方政府有這樣的一個數據他要漲價他沒有那個\n422068\t423550\t徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n438504\t457717\t您是覺得說呢這個哪有敗訴喔那這個呢好我給你證明一下法律名詞它不是敗訴但是呢它叫做再審原告之訴駁回也就是說你們當時希望申請包含是在意等等的被駁回了我想問一下主委可不可以說明一下你們被駁回的理由是什麼您清楚嗎\n468924\t494315\t那討論完的結果來講當然後來法院並不支持我們這個認定要採訪的部分就是說這個是涉及說我們的標準我們的認定的方式法院可能他認為他的認定方式應該改善。那麼呢你們現在如果有30天有新事證可以申請在役請問目前對本案的態度NCC這裡會申請在役嗎還是接受這一次被迫回的結果在審就是說基本上這法律的部分我們整理在審嗎\n494735\t495456\t徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n512878\t513819\t像這種類型的案件以後我會了解。\n528692\t554330\t你們還是罰人家40萬啊。你們不能說有爭議的時候要帶回去討論因為我們是要合一致。結果呢你想要罰人家的時候即便上面法院寫得非常的清楚12個委員認為沒有違法也決定發函改進。結果有沒有造罰?如果沒有造罰的話你今天根本不用浪費人民的公帑不斷的去打這個官司。來請你說明。\n555211\t579706\t基本上來講這個諮詢會議來講的話本來它叫做諮詢會議我們在法定程序上外部的委員所討論的這個部分他的意見要不要採納最後還是七個委員要去討論的問題反正我想參考你們覺得跟我的想法一致我就參考然後如果出狀況就是說那是諮詢委員給我們的意見那如果說我覺得你的想法跟我不一樣因為這只是參考用的我不一定要聽\n579906\t583268\t徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧\n609261\t609621\t徐巧芯\n626033\t639820\t不斷的針對中天發言的是你們,中天只是一個案子和一家公司,我們監理的公司非常多,不是只有中天一家而已。因為你們論壇官司的也不只針對中天,我只是舉這個個案跟你討論啦,上一任的主委他們編了多少的訴訟費?\n641311\t642792\t徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n662310\t676158\t嗯,院長我記得上一次有柯智恩委員問你說覺得速發部這個做得怎樣的時候你問他說呢欸股市兩萬點你不開心嗎我個人沒什麼感覺我沒有買股票可是我很在意的是我們編列預算有沒有按照實際的單位數去編列喔\n678839\t695927\t我們一般會想說我們政府部門裡面最常出國的可能會是僑委會可是我們卻比較了術發部跟僑委會的這個出國的項目天數跟出國人數之後發現數位發展部的出國比僑委會還厲害出國總天數術發部329天僑委會295天出國人數也比僑委會多總費用也比他來的多\n703411\t724270\t那再來我們就想進一步的來追查說你們在這個預算的編列到底合不合情理問題可能就會在於福報看下一張投影片我們針對亞洲的部分做了一個整理喔光是亞洲部分呢四趟有三趟安排的是商務艙照理來說這也代表說是高階公務人員在出國\n725051\t752211\t而且這個我們去詳細看之後很多的費用其實有對不起來的情況我們看下一張投影片我們直接把去的同一個國家拿出來比較紅色的是舊金山三個然後藍色是倫敦然後還有綠色是華盛頓你可以看到的是你去同一個國家可是預算編列的標準根本不一樣同一個國家同一個城市每次的平均價格都不同\n752671\t757812\t當然,因為無論是次長或者司長或者署長出席,他按照我們的這個報紙費用的標準,他是做不同的艙等,所以當然就會有不同的...這都是一樣的商務艙,我們都幫你挑過了。\n777916\t780858\t您剛講到第二個問題了。你們在預算跟預估的價格上面實際落差是非常非常大的。\n795626\t824093\t我們看下一張投影片我們幫你都找出來了以7月8號到11號也就是你們要預計出國的時間來說它的價差可以說是非常的大首爾商務艙我們都講商務艙網路上報價3萬3你們編了9點6萬新加坡網上3萬4你們報的是7萬東京的部分的商務艙的報價也有很大的價差這代表你們當時在預算編列的時候就編的過高了有沒有管理上面的問題\n825093\t848361\t您挑的這個是沒有辦法改時間沒有辦法退票的那種價格然後跟我們這種可以改時間的來比但是我們實際上用的時候如果有較低的價錢是按照時報時值來使用我都把各種的都查過了啦不是你說的那樣子實際上你們當初估的票價就是比較高我把可以改票的也列進去了還是一樣的狀況不好意思我很貼心的都替你想過了\n849981\t870143\t還有再來還不只這樣部長您院長您可以看看你們的部長在整個預算編列的時候問題多大下一張投影片一樣我們在3月6號跟3月15號的時候請速發部提供相關的資訊速發部出席這個亞太網路資訊中心的會議要去紐西蘭跟日本可是他根本是在曼谷舉行的\n870563\t889000\t在2月21日到3月1日就辦完了。訴發部不知道還提供給我們資料說你們要去泰國。結果根本已經辦完了。根本就要說要去日本。完全不一樣的。所以請問為什麼你們會有訴發部連自己要去哪個國家都沒有辦法掌握的情況。\n890209\t918418\tAPNIC有相當多相關會議喔那這個部分我們是不是會後用書面來提供這個問題?你看你們答不出來的時候做做會口我時間也不夠了啦院長我請你評估一下好不好不是太細是已經去完的然後我們問你去了哪裡他們提供給我們的是錯誤的代表他們完全沒有掌握自己速發布編了這麼多錢出國去了哪院長最後一點時間可以說明一下我剛剛所提到的剛才速發布的這些問題您同意嗎?您覺得合理嗎?\n919538\t923240\t有沒有需要修正的空間?檢討的必要性?\n","txt":"謝謝院長。我想有請我們陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備詢。主委午安\n首先剛才葉元之委員講說這個NCC主委陳耀祥說陳耀祥說沒有講說是前一任的事情,他剛剛沒有帶iPad上來,沒有辦法show給大家看,但是我必須說,等一下我才會問到這個NCC主委,但是你確實有講是前一任的事情,和先續名。我說前任不是說前草,我剛才跟他講。前一任的事情你有沒有說?\n那是前任,對啊,沒有說是前任的會員,對,好,所以他說你說的是那是前一任的事情,這句話我跟您確認您有講。什麼,哪一句話?您有講這一句話叫做那是前一任的事情。對啊,前任的,這個案子是前任做成的決定啊。我知道了,謝謝。葉委員問他是前草啦,葉委員晒的錯了。我幫你們來這個公道一下嘛,前一任的事情就前一任的事,現在大家知道了好嗎?\n我想今天剛剛那個議員關心的有關這個無人機零件的事情我也很關心就是說呢2023年9月15號的時候這個蔡總統去視察無人機當時我們很開心還跟他報告說呢我們目前軍用的商規非常辛苦做到了100%沒有中國的零件我們覺得是很好的事情啊我們就是自己能做就自己做\n但是呢今天他去的時候出現上面是MIC這個部分剛剛院長你有回答過了但我想請看下一張這個所謂的馬達齁驅動馬達上面呢不只他MIC喔其實你可以看到什麼在大陸的南昌三瑞智能科技股份有限公司製造而且可以查到售價是369塊美金我想問一下喔\n那針對這次賴準總統去參訪那結果呢出糗了請問我們會不會要求這個廠商要做具體的改善這個廠商自己都已經說了啦說因為這是在測試的狀況下他已經裝了在測試而且現在台灣已經可以自己生產了所以不要對這件事情在那邊大驚小怪沒有所以你覺得發現上面有MIC是大驚小怪\n對啊當然這廠商都自己講了他在測試的過程好像在這裡問這個沒意思啦這不是你把你把神聖的民主殿堂拿來做這個網紅的事\n這個跟網紅沒有關係,我沒有提到網紅,這是前一位委員說的,請不要猜到我的頭上。我是要問行政院的態度會不會要求廠商未來在參展的時候也要注意我們所有的樣品上面也不可以是MIC,還是您認為MIC如果是在展覽當中OK,只是你不能做後續的生產,請問是哪一種態度?\n當然我們是盡可能的不要有這個MIC啊。但是在展覽的時候當然我們會讓廠商再提高警覺。當然我跟委員報告發現這件事情以後很多的廠商不會再使用了啦。很多廠商不會再使用。因為已經有國產了。已經有國產了。對。好那我們再談一下片價跟民生有關的事情大家都很在乎喔。\n那這一波電價調整平均達到11%那民生的部分漲了之外呢還有包含商用我會漲大家很關心的是啊現在呢如果電價漲了以後物價會不會漲尤其大眾運輸今天要特別跟這個院長來談的是臺鐵、高鐵、捷運跟客運請問這四種大眾運輸工具會不會漲價什麼時候拍板\n好,這個先講國道運輸啦,如果說是燃油的巴士的部分,大部分都燃油,所以沒有漲價的空間啦。所以客戶不漲價。對,然後第二個呢,就是台鐵的部分,台鐵很早以前就說要調整這個票價,它的原因是因為台鐵已經有29年的時間。\n臺鐵現在還在研議過程當中,那他們還沒提出來嗎?他們還沒有提出來,那我們有確認說大概在什麼時間,比如說4月、5月、6月他們會去做相關的審議,會拍板。那這是臺鐵公司?因為他們現在是公司化,他處理,事實上在處理啦。然後他通過這個董事會以後就送我們的交通費力審議委員會。\n所以現在這個時間可能還有一段時間,不是馬上。那再來就是高鐵的部分會漲價嗎?好,高鐵的部分,高鐵也是一個公司。那這個電的成本實際上對他們來說佔比不高。\n那台鐵那個高鐵呢去年的營運呢是有蠻好的盈餘的那我們當然是呼籲這個高鐵不要 高鐵部分那再來我要特別跟你們討論的是有關於捷運喔因為捷運電費站捷運的成本非常的高\n徐巧芯\n委員你比我還清楚現在大部分在高雄或者是在臺北大家用那個TPAS\n那T-PASS絕對不會漲價,而且T-PASS一直要到...T-PASS不會漲價我們知道,我們是說單一票價的部分。對啊,那這T-PASS不會漲價的話,T-PASS占了所有的台北捷運跟高雄捷運的最大的部分。那如果T-PASS沒有漲價的時候,那為了那個少數沒有用T-PASS的人,\n那請問一下我們在臺北,我覺得民眾會覺得很奇怪啦。這一些捷運公司如果說在地方上面,它其實不分縣市啦,有捷運的地方政府希望說政府對於他們的捷運電費動漲或補助的部分,政院有相關的規劃嗎?\n徐巧芯是地方政府管理講對了,但捷運的費率呢是由地方政府來決定。那我剛才講過因為大部分搭的都是用TPAS那地方政府有這樣的一個數據他要漲價他沒有那個\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n您是覺得說呢這個哪有敗訴喔那這個呢好我給你證明一下法律名詞它不是敗訴但是呢它叫做再審原告之訴駁回也就是說你們當時希望申請包含是在意等等的被駁回了我想問一下主委可不可以說明一下你們被駁回的理由是什麼您清楚嗎\n那討論完的結果來講當然後來法院並不支持我們這個認定要採訪的部分就是說這個是涉及說我們的標準我們的認定的方式法院可能他認為他的認定方式應該改善。那麼呢你們現在如果有30天有新事證可以申請在役請問目前對本案的態度NCC這裡會申請在役嗎還是接受這一次被迫回的結果在審就是說基本上這法律的部分我們整理在審嗎\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n像這種類型的案件以後我會了解。\n你們還是罰人家40萬啊。你們不能說有爭議的時候要帶回去討論因為我們是要合一致。結果呢你想要罰人家的時候即便上面法院寫得非常的清楚12個委員認為沒有違法也決定發函改進。結果有沒有造罰?如果沒有造罰的話你今天根本不用浪費人民的公帑不斷的去打這個官司。來請你說明。\n基本上來講這個諮詢會議來講的話本來它叫做諮詢會議我們在法定程序上外部的委員所討論的這個部分他的意見要不要採納最後還是七個委員要去討論的問題反正我想參考你們覺得跟我的想法一致我就參考然後如果出狀況就是說那是諮詢委員給我們的意見那如果說我覺得你的想法跟我不一樣因為這只是參考用的我不一定要聽\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧\n徐巧芯\n不斷的針對中天發言的是你們,中天只是一個案子和一家公司,我們監理的公司非常多,不是只有中天一家而已。因為你們論壇官司的也不只針對中天,我只是舉這個個案跟你討論啦,上一任的主委他們編了多少的訴訟費?\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n嗯,院長我記得上一次有柯智恩委員問你說覺得速發部這個做得怎樣的時候你問他說呢欸股市兩萬點你不開心嗎我個人沒什麼感覺我沒有買股票可是我很在意的是我們編列預算有沒有按照實際的單位數去編列喔\n我們一般會想說我們政府部門裡面最常出國的可能會是僑委會可是我們卻比較了術發部跟僑委會的這個出國的項目天數跟出國人數之後發現數位發展部的出國比僑委會還厲害出國總天數術發部329天僑委會295天出國人數也比僑委會多總費用也比他來的多\n那再來我們就想進一步的來追查說你們在這個預算的編列到底合不合情理問題可能就會在於福報看下一張投影片我們針對亞洲的部分做了一個整理喔光是亞洲部分呢四趟有三趟安排的是商務艙照理來說這也代表說是高階公務人員在出國\n而且這個我們去詳細看之後很多的費用其實有對不起來的情況我們看下一張投影片我們直接把去的同一個國家拿出來比較紅色的是舊金山三個然後藍色是倫敦然後還有綠色是華盛頓你可以看到的是你去同一個國家可是預算編列的標準根本不一樣同一個國家同一個城市每次的平均價格都不同\n當然,因為無論是次長或者司長或者署長出席,他按照我們的這個報紙費用的標準,他是做不同的艙等,所以當然就會有不同的...這都是一樣的商務艙,我們都幫你挑過了。\n您剛講到第二個問題了。你們在預算跟預估的價格上面實際落差是非常非常大的。\n我們看下一張投影片我們幫你都找出來了以7月8號到11號也就是你們要預計出國的時間來說它的價差可以說是非常的大首爾商務艙我們都講商務艙網路上報價3萬3你們編了9點6萬新加坡網上3萬4你們報的是7萬東京的部分的商務艙的報價也有很大的價差這代表你們當時在預算編列的時候就編的過高了有沒有管理上面的問題\n您挑的這個是沒有辦法改時間沒有辦法退票的那種價格然後跟我們這種可以改時間的來比但是我們實際上用的時候如果有較低的價錢是按照時報時值來使用我都把各種的都查過了啦不是你說的那樣子實際上你們當初估的票價就是比較高我把可以改票的也列進去了還是一樣的狀況不好意思我很貼心的都替你想過了\n還有再來還不只這樣部長您院長您可以看看你們的部長在整個預算編列的時候問題多大下一張投影片一樣我們在3月6號跟3月15號的時候請速發部提供相關的資訊速發部出席這個亞太網路資訊中心的會議要去紐西蘭跟日本可是他根本是在曼谷舉行的\n在2月21日到3月1日就辦完了。訴發部不知道還提供給我們資料說你們要去泰國。結果根本已經辦完了。根本就要說要去日本。完全不一樣的。所以請問為什麼你們會有訴發部連自己要去哪個國家都沒有辦法掌握的情況。\nAPNIC有相當多相關會議喔那這個部分我們是不是會後用書面來提供這個問題?你看你們答不出來的時候做做會口我時間也不夠了啦院長我請你評估一下好不好不是太細是已經去完的然後我們問你去了哪裡他們提供給我們的是錯誤的代表他們完全沒有掌握自己速發布編了這麼多錢出國去了哪院長最後一點時間可以說明一下我剛剛所提到的剛才速發布的這些問題您同意嗎?您覺得合理嗎?\n有沒有需要修正的空間?檢討的必要性?\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:13.473\n謝謝院長。我想有請我們陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備詢。主委午安\n\n00:23.807 --> 00:47.990\n首先剛才葉元之委員講說這個NCC主委陳耀祥說陳耀祥說沒有講說是前一任的事情,他剛剛沒有帶iPad上來,沒有辦法show給大家看,但是我必須說,等一下我才會問到這個NCC主委,但是你確實有講是前一任的事情,和先續名。我說前任不是說前草,我剛才跟他講。前一任的事情你有沒有說?\n\n00:48.710 --> 01:13.980\n那是前任,對啊,沒有說是前任的會員,對,好,所以他說你說的是那是前一任的事情,這句話我跟您確認您有講。什麼,哪一句話?您有講這一句話叫做那是前一任的事情。對啊,前任的,這個案子是前任做成的決定啊。我知道了,謝謝。葉委員問他是前草啦,葉委員晒的錯了。我幫你們來這個公道一下嘛,前一任的事情就前一任的事,現在大家知道了好嗎?\n\n01:14.820 --> 01:39.580\n我想今天剛剛那個議員關心的有關這個無人機零件的事情我也很關心就是說呢2023年9月15號的時候這個蔡總統去視察無人機當時我們很開心還跟他報告說呢我們目前軍用的商規非常辛苦做到了100%沒有中國的零件我們覺得是很好的事情啊我們就是自己能做就自己做\n\n01:40.000 --> 02:03.798\n但是呢今天他去的時候出現上面是MIC這個部分剛剛院長你有回答過了但我想請看下一張這個所謂的馬達齁驅動馬達上面呢不只他MIC喔其實你可以看到什麼在大陸的南昌三瑞智能科技股份有限公司製造而且可以查到售價是369塊美金我想問一下喔\n\n02:04.238 --> 02:32.312\n那針對這次賴準總統去參訪那結果呢出糗了請問我們會不會要求這個廠商要做具體的改善這個廠商自己都已經說了啦說因為這是在測試的狀況下他已經裝了在測試而且現在台灣已經可以自己生產了所以不要對這件事情在那邊大驚小怪沒有所以你覺得發現上面有MIC是大驚小怪\n\n02:33.112 --> 02:39.819\n對啊當然這廠商都自己講了他在測試的過程好像在這裡問這個沒意思啦這不是你把你把神聖的民主殿堂拿來做這個網紅的事\n\n02:50.390 --> 03:12.701\n這個跟網紅沒有關係,我沒有提到網紅,這是前一位委員說的,請不要猜到我的頭上。我是要問行政院的態度會不會要求廠商未來在參展的時候也要注意我們所有的樣品上面也不可以是MIC,還是您認為MIC如果是在展覽當中OK,只是你不能做後續的生產,請問是哪一種態度?\n\n03:13.781 --> 03:39.763\n當然我們是盡可能的不要有這個MIC啊。但是在展覽的時候當然我們會讓廠商再提高警覺。當然我跟委員報告發現這件事情以後很多的廠商不會再使用了啦。很多廠商不會再使用。因為已經有國產了。已經有國產了。對。好那我們再談一下片價跟民生有關的事情大家都很在乎喔。\n\n03:40.163 --> 03:57.533\n那這一波電價調整平均達到11%那民生的部分漲了之外呢還有包含商用我會漲大家很關心的是啊現在呢如果電價漲了以後物價會不會漲尤其大眾運輸今天要特別跟這個院長來談的是臺鐵、高鐵、捷運跟客運請問這四種大眾運輸工具會不會漲價什麼時候拍板\n\n04:05.247 --> 04:25.552\n好,這個先講國道運輸啦,如果說是燃油的巴士的部分,大部分都燃油,所以沒有漲價的空間啦。所以客戶不漲價。對,然後第二個呢,就是台鐵的部分,台鐵很早以前就說要調整這個票價,它的原因是因為台鐵已經有29年的時間。\n\n04:27.672 --> 04:34.998\n臺鐵現在還在研議過程當中,那他們還沒提出來嗎?他們還沒有提出來,那我們有確認說大概在什麼時間,比如說4月、5月、6月他們會去做相關的審議,會拍板。那這是臺鐵公司?因為他們現在是公司化,他處理,事實上在處理啦。然後他通過這個董事會以後就送我們的交通費力審議委員會。\n\n04:54.855 --> 05:03.807\n所以現在這個時間可能還有一段時間,不是馬上。那再來就是高鐵的部分會漲價嗎?好,高鐵的部分,高鐵也是一個公司。那這個電的成本實際上對他們來說佔比不高。\n\n05:09.975 --> 05:27.299\n那台鐵那個高鐵呢去年的營運呢是有蠻好的盈餘的那我們當然是呼籲這個高鐵不要高鐵部分那再來我要特別跟你們討論的是有關於捷運喔因為捷運電費站捷運的成本非常的高\n\n05:28.160 --> 05:28.740\n徐巧芯\n\n05:48.183 --> 05:51.705\n委員你比我還清楚現在大部分在高雄或者是在臺北大家用那個TPAS\n\n06:05.325 --> 06:25.160\n那T-PASS絕對不會漲價,而且T-PASS一直要到...T-PASS不會漲價我們知道,我們是說單一票價的部分。對啊,那這T-PASS不會漲價的話,T-PASS占了所有的台北捷運跟高雄捷運的最大的部分。那如果T-PASS沒有漲價的時候,那為了那個少數沒有用T-PASS的人,\n\n06:25.540 --> 06:43.526\n那請問一下我們在臺北,我覺得民眾會覺得很奇怪啦。這一些捷運公司如果說在地方上面,它其實不分縣市啦,有捷運的地方政府希望說政府對於他們的捷運電費動漲或補助的部分,政院有相關的規劃嗎?\n\n06:46.109 --> 07:00.701\n徐巧芯是地方政府管理講對了,但捷運的費率呢是由地方政府來決定。那我剛才講過因為大部分搭的都是用TPAS那地方政府有這樣的一個數據他要漲價他沒有那個\n\n07:02.068 --> 07:03.550\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n07:18.504 --> 07:37.717\n您是覺得說呢這個哪有敗訴喔那這個呢好我給你證明一下法律名詞它不是敗訴但是呢它叫做再審原告之訴駁回也就是說你們當時希望申請包含是在意等等的被駁回了我想問一下主委可不可以說明一下你們被駁回的理由是什麼您清楚嗎\n\n07:48.924 --> 08:14.315\n那討論完的結果來講當然後來法院並不支持我們這個認定要採訪的部分就是說這個是涉及說我們的標準我們的認定的方式法院可能他認為他的認定方式應該改善。那麼呢你們現在如果有30天有新事證可以申請在役請問目前對本案的態度NCC這裡會申請在役嗎還是接受這一次被迫回的結果在審就是說基本上這法律的部分我們整理在審嗎\n\n08:14.735 --> 08:15.456\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n08:32.878 --> 08:33.819\n像這種類型的案件以後我會了解。\n\n08:48.692 --> 09:14.330\n你們還是罰人家40萬啊。你們不能說有爭議的時候要帶回去討論因為我們是要合一致。結果呢你想要罰人家的時候即便上面法院寫得非常的清楚12個委員認為沒有違法也決定發函改進。結果有沒有造罰?如果沒有造罰的話你今天根本不用浪費人民的公帑不斷的去打這個官司。來請你說明。\n\n09:15.211 --> 09:39.706\n基本上來講這個諮詢會議來講的話本來它叫做諮詢會議我們在法定程序上外部的委員所討論的這個部分他的意見要不要採納最後還是七個委員要去討論的問題反正我想參考你們覺得跟我的想法一致我就參考然後如果出狀況就是說那是諮詢委員給我們的意見那如果說我覺得你的想法跟我不一樣因為這只是參考用的我不一定要聽\n\n09:39.906 --> 09:43.268\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧\n\n10:09.261 --> 10:09.621\n徐巧芯\n\n10:26.033 --> 10:39.820\n不斷的針對中天發言的是你們,中天只是一個案子和一家公司,我們監理的公司非常多,不是只有中天一家而已。因為你們論壇官司的也不只針對中天,我只是舉這個個案跟你討論啦,上一任的主委他們編了多少的訴訟費?\n\n10:41.311 --> 10:42.792\n徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯\n\n11:02.310 --> 11:16.158\n嗯,院長我記得上一次有柯智恩委員問你說覺得速發部這個做得怎樣的時候你問他說呢欸股市兩萬點你不開心嗎我個人沒什麼感覺我沒有買股票可是我很在意的是我們編列預算有沒有按照實際的單位數去編列喔\n\n11:18.839 --> 11:35.927\n我們一般會想說我們政府部門裡面最常出國的可能會是僑委會可是我們卻比較了術發部跟僑委會的這個出國的項目天數跟出國人數之後發現數位發展部的出國比僑委會還厲害出國總天數術發部329天僑委會295天出國人數也比僑委會多總費用也比他來的多\n\n11:43.411 --> 12:04.270\n那再來我們就想進一步的來追查說你們在這個預算的編列到底合不合情理問題可能就會在於福報看下一張投影片我們針對亞洲的部分做了一個整理喔光是亞洲部分呢四趟有三趟安排的是商務艙照理來說這也代表說是高階公務人員在出國\n\n12:05.051 --> 12:32.211\n而且這個我們去詳細看之後很多的費用其實有對不起來的情況我們看下一張投影片我們直接把去的同一個國家拿出來比較紅色的是舊金山三個然後藍色是倫敦然後還有綠色是華盛頓你可以看到的是你去同一個國家可是預算編列的標準根本不一樣同一個國家同一個城市每次的平均價格都不同\n\n12:32.671 --> 12:37.812\n當然,因為無論是次長或者司長或者署長出席,他按照我們的這個報紙費用的標準,他是做不同的艙等,所以當然就會有不同的...這都是一樣的商務艙,我們都幫你挑過了。\n\n12:57.916 --> 13:00.858\n您剛講到第二個問題了。你們在預算跟預估的價格上面實際落差是非常非常大的。\n\n13:15.626 --> 13:44.093\n我們看下一張投影片我們幫你都找出來了以7月8號到11號也就是你們要預計出國的時間來說它的價差可以說是非常的大首爾商務艙我們都講商務艙網路上報價3萬3你們編了9點6萬新加坡網上3萬4你們報的是7萬東京的部分的商務艙的報價也有很大的價差這代表你們當時在預算編列的時候就編的過高了有沒有管理上面的問題\n\n13:45.093 --> 14:08.361\n您挑的這個是沒有辦法改時間沒有辦法退票的那種價格然後跟我們這種可以改時間的來比但是我們實際上用的時候如果有較低的價錢是按照時報時值來使用我都把各種的都查過了啦不是你說的那樣子實際上你們當初估的票價就是比較高我把可以改票的也列進去了還是一樣的狀況不好意思我很貼心的都替你想過了\n\n14:09.981 --> 14:30.143\n還有再來還不只這樣部長您院長您可以看看你們的部長在整個預算編列的時候問題多大下一張投影片一樣我們在3月6號跟3月15號的時候請速發部提供相關的資訊速發部出席這個亞太網路資訊中心的會議要去紐西蘭跟日本可是他根本是在曼谷舉行的\n\n14:30.563 --> 14:49.000\n在2月21日到3月1日就辦完了。訴發部不知道還提供給我們資料說你們要去泰國。結果根本已經辦完了。根本就要說要去日本。完全不一樣的。所以請問為什麼你們會有訴發部連自己要去哪個國家都沒有辦法掌握的情況。\n\n14:50.209 --> 15:18.418\nAPNIC有相當多相關會議喔那這個部分我們是不是會後用書面來提供這個問題?你看你們答不出來的時候做做會口我時間也不夠了啦院長我請你評估一下好不好不是太細是已經去完的然後我們問你去了哪裡他們提供給我們的是錯誤的代表他們完全沒有掌握自己速發布編了這麼多錢出國去了哪院長最後一點時間可以說明一下我剛剛所提到的剛才速發布的這些問題您同意嗎?您覺得合理嗎?\n\n15:19.538 --> 15:23.240\n有沒有需要修正的空間?檢討的必要性?\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":13.473,"text":"謝謝院長。我想有請我們陳建仁院長。再請陳院長備詢。主委午安"},{"start":23.807,"end":47.99,"text":"首先剛才葉元之委員講說這個NCC主委陳耀祥說陳耀祥說沒有講說是前一任的事情,他剛剛沒有帶iPad上來,沒有辦法show給大家看,但是我必須說,等一下我才會問到這個NCC主委,但是你確實有講是前一任的事情,和先續名。我說前任不是說前草,我剛才跟他講。前一任的事情你有沒有說?"},{"start":48.71,"end":73.98,"text":"那是前任,對啊,沒有說是前任的會員,對,好,所以他說你說的是那是前一任的事情,這句話我跟您確認您有講。什麼,哪一句話?您有講這一句話叫做那是前一任的事情。對啊,前任的,這個案子是前任做成的決定啊。我知道了,謝謝。葉委員問他是前草啦,葉委員晒的錯了。我幫你們來這個公道一下嘛,前一任的事情就前一任的事,現在大家知道了好嗎?"},{"start":74.82,"end":99.58,"text":"我想今天剛剛那個議員關心的有關這個無人機零件的事情我也很關心就是說呢2023年9月15號的時候這個蔡總統去視察無人機當時我們很開心還跟他報告說呢我們目前軍用的商規非常辛苦做到了100%沒有中國的零件我們覺得是很好的事情啊我們就是自己能做就自己做"},{"start":100,"end":123.798,"text":"但是呢今天他去的時候出現上面是MIC這個部分剛剛院長你有回答過了但我想請看下一張這個所謂的馬達齁驅動馬達上面呢不只他MIC喔其實你可以看到什麼在大陸的南昌三瑞智能科技股份有限公司製造而且可以查到售價是369塊美金我想問一下喔"},{"start":124.238,"end":152.312,"text":"那針對這次賴準總統去參訪那結果呢出糗了請問我們會不會要求這個廠商要做具體的改善這個廠商自己都已經說了啦說因為這是在測試的狀況下他已經裝了在測試而且現在台灣已經可以自己生產了所以不要對這件事情在那邊大驚小怪沒有所以你覺得發現上面有MIC是大驚小怪"},{"start":153.112,"end":159.819,"text":"對啊當然這廠商都自己講了他在測試的過程好像在這裡問這個沒意思啦這不是你把你把神聖的民主殿堂拿來做這個網紅的事"},{"start":170.39,"end":192.701,"text":"這個跟網紅沒有關係,我沒有提到網紅,這是前一位委員說的,請不要猜到我的頭上。我是要問行政院的態度會不會要求廠商未來在參展的時候也要注意我們所有的樣品上面也不可以是MIC,還是您認為MIC如果是在展覽當中OK,只是你不能做後續的生產,請問是哪一種態度?"},{"start":193.781,"end":219.763,"text":"當然我們是盡可能的不要有這個MIC啊。但是在展覽的時候當然我們會讓廠商再提高警覺。當然我跟委員報告發現這件事情以後很多的廠商不會再使用了啦。很多廠商不會再使用。因為已經有國產了。已經有國產了。對。好那我們再談一下片價跟民生有關的事情大家都很在乎喔。"},{"start":220.163,"end":237.533,"text":"那這一波電價調整平均達到11%那民生的部分漲了之外呢還有包含商用我會漲大家很關心的是啊現在呢如果電價漲了以後物價會不會漲尤其大眾運輸今天要特別跟這個院長來談的是臺鐵、高鐵、捷運跟客運請問這四種大眾運輸工具會不會漲價什麼時候拍板"},{"start":245.247,"end":265.552,"text":"好,這個先講國道運輸啦,如果說是燃油的巴士的部分,大部分都燃油,所以沒有漲價的空間啦。所以客戶不漲價。對,然後第二個呢,就是台鐵的部分,台鐵很早以前就說要調整這個票價,它的原因是因為台鐵已經有29年的時間。"},{"start":267.672,"end":274.998,"text":"臺鐵現在還在研議過程當中,那他們還沒提出來嗎?他們還沒有提出來,那我們有確認說大概在什麼時間,比如說4月、5月、6月他們會去做相關的審議,會拍板。那這是臺鐵公司?因為他們現在是公司化,他處理,事實上在處理啦。然後他通過這個董事會以後就送我們的交通費力審議委員會。"},{"start":294.855,"end":303.807,"text":"所以現在這個時間可能還有一段時間,不是馬上。那再來就是高鐵的部分會漲價嗎?好,高鐵的部分,高鐵也是一個公司。那這個電的成本實際上對他們來說佔比不高。"},{"start":309.975,"end":327.299,"text":"那台鐵那個高鐵呢去年的營運呢是有蠻好的盈餘的那我們當然是呼籲這個高鐵不要 高鐵部分那再來我要特別跟你們討論的是有關於捷運喔因為捷運電費站捷運的成本非常的高"},{"start":328.16,"end":328.74,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":348.183,"end":351.705,"text":"委員你比我還清楚現在大部分在高雄或者是在臺北大家用那個TPAS"},{"start":365.325,"end":385.16,"text":"那T-PASS絕對不會漲價,而且T-PASS一直要到...T-PASS不會漲價我們知道,我們是說單一票價的部分。對啊,那這T-PASS不會漲價的話,T-PASS占了所有的台北捷運跟高雄捷運的最大的部分。那如果T-PASS沒有漲價的時候,那為了那個少數沒有用T-PASS的人,"},{"start":385.54,"end":403.526,"text":"那請問一下我們在臺北,我覺得民眾會覺得很奇怪啦。這一些捷運公司如果說在地方上面,它其實不分縣市啦,有捷運的地方政府希望說政府對於他們的捷運電費動漲或補助的部分,政院有相關的規劃嗎?"},{"start":406.109,"end":420.701,"text":"徐巧芯是地方政府管理講對了,但捷運的費率呢是由地方政府來決定。那我剛才講過因為大部分搭的都是用TPAS那地方政府有這樣的一個數據他要漲價他沒有那個"},{"start":422.068,"end":423.55,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":438.504,"end":457.717,"text":"您是覺得說呢這個哪有敗訴喔那這個呢好我給你證明一下法律名詞它不是敗訴但是呢它叫做再審原告之訴駁回也就是說你們當時希望申請包含是在意等等的被駁回了我想問一下主委可不可以說明一下你們被駁回的理由是什麼您清楚嗎"},{"start":468.924,"end":494.315,"text":"那討論完的結果來講當然後來法院並不支持我們這個認定要採訪的部分就是說這個是涉及說我們的標準我們的認定的方式法院可能他認為他的認定方式應該改善。那麼呢你們現在如果有30天有新事證可以申請在役請問目前對本案的態度NCC這裡會申請在役嗎還是接受這一次被迫回的結果在審就是說基本上這法律的部分我們整理在審嗎"},{"start":494.735,"end":495.456,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":512.878,"end":513.819,"text":"像這種類型的案件以後我會了解。"},{"start":528.692,"end":554.33,"text":"你們還是罰人家40萬啊。你們不能說有爭議的時候要帶回去討論因為我們是要合一致。結果呢你想要罰人家的時候即便上面法院寫得非常的清楚12個委員認為沒有違法也決定發函改進。結果有沒有造罰?如果沒有造罰的話你今天根本不用浪費人民的公帑不斷的去打這個官司。來請你說明。"},{"start":555.211,"end":579.706,"text":"基本上來講這個諮詢會議來講的話本來它叫做諮詢會議我們在法定程序上外部的委員所討論的這個部分他的意見要不要採納最後還是七個委員要去討論的問題反正我想參考你們覺得跟我的想法一致我就參考然後如果出狀況就是說那是諮詢委員給我們的意見那如果說我覺得你的想法跟我不一樣因為這只是參考用的我不一定要聽"},{"start":579.906,"end":583.268,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧"},{"start":609.261,"end":609.621,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":626.033,"end":639.82,"text":"不斷的針對中天發言的是你們,中天只是一個案子和一家公司,我們監理的公司非常多,不是只有中天一家而已。因為你們論壇官司的也不只針對中天,我只是舉這個個案跟你討論啦,上一任的主委他們編了多少的訴訟費?"},{"start":641.311,"end":642.792,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":662.31,"end":676.158,"text":"嗯,院長我記得上一次有柯智恩委員問你說覺得速發部這個做得怎樣的時候你問他說呢欸股市兩萬點你不開心嗎我個人沒什麼感覺我沒有買股票可是我很在意的是我們編列預算有沒有按照實際的單位數去編列喔"},{"start":678.839,"end":695.927,"text":"我們一般會想說我們政府部門裡面最常出國的可能會是僑委會可是我們卻比較了術發部跟僑委會的這個出國的項目天數跟出國人數之後發現數位發展部的出國比僑委會還厲害出國總天數術發部329天僑委會295天出國人數也比僑委會多總費用也比他來的多"},{"start":703.411,"end":724.27,"text":"那再來我們就想進一步的來追查說你們在這個預算的編列到底合不合情理問題可能就會在於福報看下一張投影片我們針對亞洲的部分做了一個整理喔光是亞洲部分呢四趟有三趟安排的是商務艙照理來說這也代表說是高階公務人員在出國"},{"start":725.051,"end":752.211,"text":"而且這個我們去詳細看之後很多的費用其實有對不起來的情況我們看下一張投影片我們直接把去的同一個國家拿出來比較紅色的是舊金山三個然後藍色是倫敦然後還有綠色是華盛頓你可以看到的是你去同一個國家可是預算編列的標準根本不一樣同一個國家同一個城市每次的平均價格都不同"},{"start":752.671,"end":757.812,"text":"當然,因為無論是次長或者司長或者署長出席,他按照我們的這個報紙費用的標準,他是做不同的艙等,所以當然就會有不同的...這都是一樣的商務艙,我們都幫你挑過了。"},{"start":777.916,"end":780.858,"text":"您剛講到第二個問題了。你們在預算跟預估的價格上面實際落差是非常非常大的。"},{"start":795.626,"end":824.093,"text":"我們看下一張投影片我們幫你都找出來了以7月8號到11號也就是你們要預計出國的時間來說它的價差可以說是非常的大首爾商務艙我們都講商務艙網路上報價3萬3你們編了9點6萬新加坡網上3萬4你們報的是7萬東京的部分的商務艙的報價也有很大的價差這代表你們當時在預算編列的時候就編的過高了有沒有管理上面的問題"},{"start":825.093,"end":848.361,"text":"您挑的這個是沒有辦法改時間沒有辦法退票的那種價格然後跟我們這種可以改時間的來比但是我們實際上用的時候如果有較低的價錢是按照時報時值來使用我都把各種的都查過了啦不是你說的那樣子實際上你們當初估的票價就是比較高我把可以改票的也列進去了還是一樣的狀況不好意思我很貼心的都替你想過了"},{"start":849.981,"end":870.143,"text":"還有再來還不只這樣部長您院長您可以看看你們的部長在整個預算編列的時候問題多大下一張投影片一樣我們在3月6號跟3月15號的時候請速發部提供相關的資訊速發部出席這個亞太網路資訊中心的會議要去紐西蘭跟日本可是他根本是在曼谷舉行的"},{"start":870.563,"end":889,"text":"在2月21日到3月1日就辦完了。訴發部不知道還提供給我們資料說你們要去泰國。結果根本已經辦完了。根本就要說要去日本。完全不一樣的。所以請問為什麼你們會有訴發部連自己要去哪個國家都沒有辦法掌握的情況。"},{"start":890.209,"end":918.418,"text":"APNIC有相當多相關會議喔那這個部分我們是不是會後用書面來提供這個問題?你看你們答不出來的時候做做會口我時間也不夠了啦院長我請你評估一下好不好不是太細是已經去完的然後我們問你去了哪裡他們提供給我們的是錯誤的代表他們完全沒有掌握自己速發布編了這麼多錢出國去了哪院長最後一點時間可以說明一下我剛剛所提到的剛才速發布的這些問題您同意嗎?您覺得合理嗎?"},{"start":919.538,"end":923.24,"text":"有沒有需要修正的空間?檢討的必要性?"}]}}}}