{"id":150314,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150314","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b5115e157291f5944e5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a67dc0fecf33e734415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:37:13 - 09:47:23","影片長度":"00:10:10","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":610,"end_time":"2024-03-25T09:47:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T09:37:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":333,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時37分）主席好，有請我們的部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長好。我今天要幫一群人、就是我們幼兒園的園長或者是老師、教保人員，因為我過去在幼保系任教了二十幾年，也現場跟這些人接觸，我們始終有一個觀念就是老師要被照顧好，孩子才能夠被照顧好，請部長看一下，我們的公立幼兒園事實上還是有一群適用勞動基準法的人，也就是我們的教保人員，當然私立跟非營利就不用講，部長看到這個覺得如何？把勞基法的人員當下人在管理，所以能不能請假還要園長說了算，而且血尿也不能夠隨便離開，他已經生病了，他還要待在那裡，他不能夠離開現場，甚至他請特休假也要找人代理，他才能夠去特休假。","這是我的學生傳給我的訊息，他是一個任職在幼兒園的幼教人員，因為身體不適，可是還是沒有辦法休息，請休假的時候還要找到人才可以休假，這個是多麼不友善的職場環境？如果老師這樣不被善待，他怎麼可能照顧好小孩？可是這幾年我們政府的政策要讓孩子能夠進入到托育現場裡，可是照顧他的人是這群老師，他就沒有被好好的對待，才會產生老師對孩子不當對待的事件，因為老師本身就被不當對待，甚至勞健保的一些知識、申訴跟權利像救濟方法的知識，他們都不太知道，所以才會有如果孩子腸病毒，抱歉，整班停課的時候2個老師就是無薪假，或者是直接扣薪。","在這樣的狀況底下，這麼惡劣的環境，甚至今天要離職也離不了職，為什麼？因為雇主跟他說如果要離職的話，契約還沒到就要罰他20萬，這時有所聞，每次學生都會來跟我求助這些事情，所以本席也想問，我們總共有8,223家的幼兒園跟托嬰中心，可是你只查了501家，大概6%，所以想問一下，怎麼訂出這個6%？依據是什麼？要勞動檢查才知道這些在現場的人到底有沒有被友善對待，還要靠勞檢，所以想問一下你的依據是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們每年的專案檢查因為也是委由我們的勞檢人力啦！因為各行各業高風險、高違規的，這個我們都要去查……"],["林委員月琴：每年勞檢都是這樣啊！"],["許部長銘春：沒有，我們會有針對一些可能曾經有不良紀錄的或者有申訴案件的，我們會列入專案檢查對象。"],["林委員月琴：部長，如果是大人的現場還OK，可是照顧孩子的現場如果這麼不友善的話，我說難怪我們會時有所聞老師對孩子不當對待兒虐的狀況發生，因為老師就沒有好好的被對待啊！所以我不知道這6%你的依據到底會是什麼？是不是可以去思考一下這個狀況？"],["許部長銘春：委員，這個部分我請職安署來檢討，就是說在專案檢查的比例上，我們是不是再把幼兒園的部分提高，我覺得這個是可以檢討的。"],["林委員月琴：你的勞動檢查員的專業知識可能也要提升，為什麼我這麼講？事實上這是收到的公文，因為有幼兒園去申訴之後，然後就有人來勞檢，針對這個勞動檢查，按理來講，工時、工資、休息跟放假這些都不應該是雇主可以違反的項目，可是很遺憾的是，這還是幼教人非常困擾的，因為中午的午休時間，當他要去申訴的時候，勞工出勤的紀錄竟然是雇主所納入勞檢的項目，可是今天要問的是他們如果要提出證據，是誰要提出證據？竟然是勞工要提出證據，怎麼會是勞工要提出這個證據？因為舉證在勞方，這公文很顯示出舉證在勞方，不是在資方。"],["許部長銘春：基本上，我們去勞檢時，這些證據、就是這些實際出勤情形的紀錄是要由雇主來提供啊！"],["林委員月琴：可是你們勞動檢查員今天寫出來的公文是這樣子的話，那怎麼會是要勞方來提供，而不是資方？因為要舉證嘛？所以他根本都沒有休息啊！"],["許部長銘春：可能是雇主提出來的紀錄跟勞工實際上的情形有落差啦！為了要釐清楚，勞檢員當然會要求說不然……"],["林委員月琴：落實4小時休息30分鐘是現在幼教人最大的訴求，所以在這邊我們要很嚴肅地講，幾乎所有的私營幼兒園的中午休息時間都必須陪著孩子睡覺，跟勞動基準法的規定事實上是相反的，孩子如果乖乖睡覺，老師或許就可以睡覺，可是如果不是的話，老師要繼續照顧，那這個休息就是不存在的。","所以本席認為能不能……我們當然沒有辦法裝作沒有看到這個問題，應該積極去處理，讓勞動的條件去符合法規的一些規定，所以請勞動部會同教育部去瞭解一下這個問題，提出解決的方案，補導全國的私幼，不知道部長同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：好，可以，跟委員報告，針對幼兒園中午休息的部分，我們在今年1月25日有開過會議，後續還會再開，就是有關於幼兒園勞工相關權益的問題，尤其牽涉到您剛剛講的休息時間的部分，我們會再做一些討論。"],["林委員月琴：幼兒園有人力比的問題，勞檢的時候，檢查的項目基本上是去查勞動基準法、就業服務法、勞工保險條例、勞工職業災害保險及保護法和勞工退休金條例，這些法規都有去做檢查，可是沒有去看勞動密度耶，師生比如果不符合的話，這也是他的勞動條件啊！1個老師帶22個小孩，可是法規規定1個老師帶15個小孩，所以目前就已經是過度負擔了！甚至有幼教界說是不是可以1比12，可是現在1比22、1比28、1比29都還是大有人在的狀態裡面，好像在勞動檢查的時候並不受理這一塊，應該合理地去做配置，所以想問的是說，是不是勞動部可以做出承諾，包含剛剛我們前面講的休息這一塊，然後是不是針對於勞動密度比較高的部分，也能夠納入檢查的項目？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，有關於師生比這種人力配置的權責是在教育主管機關，這是他們的稽查項目，不是我們的勞檢項目，因為權責各有劃分，但是如果我們在檢查的時候有發現這個情形，就應該要反映給教育主管機關，這個部分我們會來……"],["林委員月琴：是不是也可以請你們在跟教育部討論的時候一併去做討論？"],["許部長銘春：好，這個我們在橫向聯繫的部分來加強，就是我們去檢查時如果發現師生比像剛剛委員所講的，跟原來的規範已經差太多了，這個我們會彙整給教育主管機關來督導他們要落實。"],["林委員月琴：好，那就請你們跟教育部討論完之後，會後把書面資料回覆我們辦公室。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["林委員月琴：然後也請勞動部不要看我是新科立委就糊弄我喔，因為我要求的很多東西大概都沒按照我要的時間點提供給我。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，不好意思，因為有些東西他們可能要彙整，尤其一些統計的或什麼的，所以以後在時間上會跟委員先說明一下，就是說如果沒辦法馬上給，要給委員一個說明，不過現在應該都已經有提供給委員了……"],["林委員月琴：是，那都是三週後了……"],["許部長銘春：不會啦，我一定是非常尊重委員的……"],["林委員月琴：所以麻煩一下依照我要求的時間給我。"],["許部長銘春：就是說可能同仁在聯繫上應該要主動地去說明是因為什麼原因沒有辦法在這個時候提供，我想委員也能夠諒解，但是絕對沒有對委員有任何不敬，我們一定是……"],["林委員月琴：就麻煩，我覺得我們要資料因為也有考慮到整個案子的期程，所以麻煩了！"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["林委員月琴：以上，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：這個我會責成業務單位要注意。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"150314","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150314","tool":"pyannote","id":"150314-pyannote"},"job_id":"00BajoRVP3olq3NF","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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\"end\": 604.254, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 604.254, \"end\": 604.414, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 604.414, \"end\": 604.614, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"琴\", \"start\": 604.614, \"end\": 604.734, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 604.734, \"end\": 604.754, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,759 --> 00:00:12,580\n主席好我們有請我們的部長請許部長林委員好部長好我今天要幫一群人就是我們的幼兒園\n\n2\n00:00:24,632 --> 00:00:26,433\n委員長或老師、教保人員\n\n3\n00:00:52,314 --> 00:01:16,371\n部長看一下事實上我們的公立幼兒園還是有一群事實上是用勞動基準法的也就是我們的教保人員那大私利跟非營利就不用講部長看到這個覺得如何把勞基法的人員當下人在管理所以能不能請之下還要看院長那說了算而且血尿也不能夠隨便離開\n\n4\n00:01:18,849 --> 00:01:31,415\n他已經是生病了他還要能呆在那裡他不能夠離開現場甚至他特休假也要找人能夠代理他才能夠去特休假\n\n5\n00:01:33,081 --> 00:01:57,224\n所以這是我的學生傳給我的訊息他是一個任職在幼兒園的幼教人員因為身體不適可是還是沒有辦法而年休假的時候還要找到人才可以去休假這個是多麼不友善的職場環境如果老師這樣不被善待他怎麼可能照顧好小孩可是我們這幾年也我們的政府的政策要讓孩子能夠進入到托育現場裡邊\n\n6\n00:01:58,775 --> 00:02:27,442\n那可是照顧他的人是這群老師他就沒有被好好的對待那才會產生說有老師對孩子不當對待因為老師本身就被不當不當對待所以想問的就是這些甚至勞健保的一些知識跟申訴跟權力像救濟方法的知識他們都不太知道所以才會有如果孩子常病毒抱歉你就整班停課的時候你們兩個老師就是無薪假\n\n7\n00:02:28,383 --> 00:02:45,704\n獲得是直接扣薪那在這樣的狀況底下這麼惡劣的環境甚至今天要離職也離不了職為什麼因為僱主跟他講說如果要離職的話你氣味還沒到你就要罰20萬這時有所聞每次學生都會來跟我求助這些事情\n\n8\n00:02:46,516 --> 00:03:14,593\n那所以也想問的是就是說我們總共呢8223家的幼兒園跟托嬰中心那可是你在你只查了501家大概6%所以想問一下怎麼定出這個6%依據是什麼要勞動檢查才知道這些在現場的人他到底有沒有被友善對待是靠勞檢那所以想問一下你的依據是什麼\n\n9\n00:03:16,582 --> 00:03:37,191\n報告委員那個我們每年的那個專案獎因為也是位於我們的勞檢人力啦吼因為其實各行各業高風險高違規的吼然後這個我們都吼要去查每年勞檢都是就是這樣嗎沒有啊我們會有針對一些吼可能就是曾經有不良記錄的吼或者這個有\n\n10\n00:03:37,811 --> 00:04:05,068\n有申訴的有申訴案件的我們也會列入專案檢查的對象部長這如果大人的現場還OK可是是照顧孩子的現場如果這麼不友善的話那我說難怪我們會時有所聞說老師對孩子不當對待而虐的狀況發生那因為老師就沒有好好的被對待啊所以我不知道就是說這6%你的依據到底會是什麼是不是可以去思考一下這個狀況\n\n11\n00:04:07,270 --> 00:04:33,128\n委員這個部分我請那個治安署這邊來檢討就是說在專案檢查的比例上比例上我們是不是把這個幼兒園的部分再來提高我覺得這個是可以檢討的那你的勞動檢查員的專業知識可能也要提升為什麼這麼講就是這事實上是收到的公文因為有幼兒園他去申訴之後然後呢就有人來勞檢嘛那勞檢呢照理來講\n\n12\n00:04:39,686 --> 00:04:53,364\n針對這個勞動檢查案例來講工時、工資、休假休息跟放假這些都不是應該是僱主可以違反的項目可是很遺憾的是這還是幼教人非常困擾的因為中午這個午休時間\n\n13\n00:04:56,367 --> 00:05:24,285\n當他要去申訴的時候竟然是勞工出勤的紀錄是僱主所納入勞檢的項目可是今天要問的是可是重點是他們能夠要提出證據竟然是誰要提出證據是勞工要提出證據怎麼會是勞工要提出這個證據來給因為舉證在勞方這公文很顯示的是舉證在勞方不是在資方\n\n14\n00:05:28,313 --> 00:05:53,526\n這個基本上我們去勞檢這個證據的就是這些出勤實際的出勤請醒的記錄是要由僱主來提供可是這是你們勞動檢察員今天寫出來公文是這樣子的話那怎麼會是要勞方來提供不是資方因為要舉證嘛所以我根本都沒有休息啊那可能是可能是僱主提出來的\n\n15\n00:05:55,740 --> 00:06:22,299\n紀錄跟勞工實際情形有落差所以為了要理清楚那勞檢員當然會要求說這樣落實4小時休息30分鐘現在是幼教人最大的訴求所以在這邊我們要很嚴肅的講幾乎所有的私營幼兒園在中午休息時間都必須陪著孩子睡覺跟勞動基準法的規定事實上是相反的\n\n16\n00:06:23,561 --> 00:06:47,408\n所以孩子如果乖乖睡覺當然或許老師就可以睡覺可是如果不是的話老師要繼續照顧那這個休息就是不存在所以本席認為能不能我們當然沒有辦法裝作沒有看到這個問題應該積極下去去處理那讓勞動的條件去符合法規的一些規定所以請勞動部會同教育部去了解一下這個問題提出解決的方案讓全國的\n\n17\n00:06:47,913 --> 00:06:59,616\n十有做輔導。這個不知道部長同意嗎?好,可以。其實我們針對中午休息幼兒園的部分我們在今年1月25日有開過會議後續還會再開就是有關於幼兒園勞工相關權益的問題尤其牽涉到您剛講的休息時間這個部分我們會再做一些討論\n\n18\n00:07:13,439 --> 00:07:22,775\n上幼兒園有人力比的問題所以勞動密度就我們去上勞檢的時候檢查的項目裡邊\n\n19\n00:07:23,857 --> 00:07:49,369\n基本上去查的是勞動基準法就業服務法勞工保險條例那勞工職業災害保險跟保護法和勞工退休金條例這些法規都有去做檢查可是沒有去看這個勞動密度私生比如果不符合的話這也是他的勞動條件所以一個老師帶22個小孩跟法規規定他一個老師帶15個小孩現在目前就已經過度負擔甚至有\n\n20\n00:07:50,589 --> 00:08:14,461\n右交界說是不是可以1比12可是現在他1比22、1比28、29都還是大有人在的狀態裡邊好像在勞動檢查的時候並不受理這一塊應該一合理的去做配置所以想問的是說那是不是勞動部可以做出承諾包含剛剛我們前面講的就是休息這一塊\n\n21\n00:08:15,621 --> 00:08:43,797\n然後是不是針對於這個密度勞動密度比較高的也能夠去納入檢查的項目報告委員因為有關於那個師生筆那種人力配置他的權責是在教育主管機關所以他是他的稽查項目但不是我的勞檢項目因為權責有各有劃分但是呢我們其實在檢查的時候發現有這種情形就應該要反映給教育主管機關\n\n22\n00:08:44,918 --> 00:08:54,409\n那是不是也可以請你們在這是要跟教育部討論的時候一併去做討論這個部分我們在橫向聯繫部會來加強就是我們去講答案我發現這個私生筆像剛剛委員講的這個跟原來規範已經差太多了\n\n23\n00:09:00,697 --> 00:09:18,016\n這個我們會彙整給這個教育主管機關那就是請你們再跟教育部討論完之後會後把書面資料回覆我們辦公室然後也請勞動部不要看我是新科立委就糊弄我因為很多東西都我要的時間點大概都沒按照那時間點給我\n\n24\n00:09:20,083 --> 00:09:39,137\n報告委員好像都給不好意思因為有些東西他們可能要彙整尤其一些統計的或什麼的所以以後在時間上會跟委員先說明一下就是說如果沒辦法馬上給要跟委員一個說明不過現在委員應該都已經有提供決定了不會啦我們一定是非常尊重委員的只是說可能\n\n25\n00:09:41,859 --> 00:10:04,754\n同仁在聯繫上應該要主動的去說明說因為什麼原因沒有辦法在這個時候提供我想委員也會能夠諒解但是絕對沒有對委員任何不敬我們一定是就麻煩因為我覺得我們要資料因為也有考慮到我們整個案子的那個期程所以麻煩以上謝謝這個我會折騰任務單位要注意謝謝林月琴委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8759\t12580\t主席好 我們有請我們的部長 請許部長林委員好 部長好我今天要幫一群人 就是我們的幼兒園\n24632\t26433\t委員長或老師、教保人員\n52314\t76371\t部長看一下事實上我們的公立幼兒園還是有一群事實上是用勞動基準法的也就是我們的教保人員那大私利跟非營利就不用講部長看到這個覺得如何把勞基法的人員當下人在管理所以能不能請之下還要看院長那說了算而且血尿也不能夠隨便離開\n78849\t91415\t他已經是生病了他還要能呆在那裡他不能夠離開現場甚至他特休假也要找人能夠代理他才能夠去特休假\n93081\t117224\t所以這是我的學生傳給我的訊息他是一個任職在幼兒園的幼教人員因為身體不適可是還是沒有辦法而年休假的時候還要找到人才可以去休假這個是多麼不友善的職場環境如果老師這樣不被善待他怎麼可能照顧好小孩可是我們這幾年也我們的政府的政策要讓孩子能夠進入到托育現場裡邊\n118775\t147442\t那可是照顧他的人是這群老師他就沒有被好好的對待那才會產生說有老師對孩子不當對待因為老師本身就被不當不當對待所以想問的就是這些甚至勞健保的一些知識跟申訴跟權力像救濟方法的知識他們都不太知道所以才會有如果孩子常病毒抱歉你就整班停課的時候你們兩個老師就是無薪假\n148383\t165704\t獲得是直接扣薪那在這樣的狀況底下這麼惡劣的環境甚至今天要離職也離不了職為什麼因為僱主跟他講說如果要離職的話你氣味還沒到你就要罰20萬這時有所聞每次學生都會來跟我求助這些事情\n166516\t194593\t那所以也想問的是就是說我們總共呢8223家的幼兒園跟托嬰中心那可是你在你只查了501家大概6%所以想問一下怎麼定出這個6%依據是什麼要勞動檢查才知道這些在現場的人他到底有沒有被友善對待是靠勞檢那所以想問一下你的依據是什麼\n196582\t217191\t報告委員那個我們每年的那個專案獎因為也是位於我們的勞檢人力啦吼因為其實各行各業高風險高違規的吼然後這個我們都吼要去查每年勞檢都是就是這樣嗎沒有啊我們會有針對一些吼可能就是曾經有不良記錄的吼或者這個有\n217811\t245068\t有申訴的有申訴案件的我們也會列入專案檢查的對象部長這如果大人的現場還OK可是是照顧孩子的現場如果這麼不友善的話那我說難怪我們會時有所聞說老師對孩子不當對待而虐的狀況發生那因為老師就沒有好好的被對待啊所以我不知道就是說這6%你的依據到底會是什麼是不是可以去思考一下這個狀況\n247270\t273128\t委員這個部分我請那個治安署這邊來檢討就是說在專案檢查的比例上比例上我們是不是把這個幼兒園的部分再來提高我覺得這個是可以檢討的那你的勞動檢查員的專業知識可能也要提升為什麼這麼講就是這事實上是收到的公文因為有幼兒園他去申訴之後然後呢就有人來勞檢嘛那勞檢呢照理來講\n279686\t293364\t針對這個勞動檢查案例來講工時、工資、休假休息跟放假這些都不是應該是僱主可以違反的項目可是很遺憾的是這還是幼教人非常困擾的因為中午這個午休時間\n296367\t324285\t當他要去申訴的時候竟然是勞工出勤的紀錄是僱主所納入勞檢的項目可是今天要問的是可是重點是他們能夠要提出證據竟然是誰要提出證據是勞工要提出證據怎麼會是勞工要提出這個證據來給因為舉證在勞方這公文很顯示的是舉證在勞方不是在資方\n328313\t353526\t這個基本上我們去勞檢這個證據的就是這些出勤實際的出勤請醒的記錄是要由僱主來提供可是這是你們勞動檢察員今天寫出來公文是這樣子的話那怎麼會是要勞方來提供不是資方因為要舉證嘛所以我根本都沒有休息啊那可能是可能是僱主提出來的\n355740\t382299\t紀錄跟勞工實際情形有落差所以為了要理清楚那勞檢員當然會要求說這樣落實4小時休息30分鐘現在是幼教人最大的訴求所以在這邊我們要很嚴肅的講幾乎所有的私營幼兒園在中午休息時間都必須陪著孩子睡覺跟勞動基準法的規定事實上是相反的\n383561\t407408\t所以孩子如果乖乖睡覺當然或許老師就可以睡覺可是如果不是的話老師要繼續照顧那這個休息就是不存在所以本席認為能不能我們當然沒有辦法裝作沒有看到這個問題應該積極下去去處理那讓勞動的條件去符合法規的一些規定所以請勞動部會同教育部去了解一下這個問題提出解決的方案讓全國的\n407913\t419616\t十有做輔導。這個不知道部長同意嗎?好,可以。其實我們針對中午休息幼兒園的部分我們在今年1月25日有開過會議後續還會再開就是有關於幼兒園勞工相關權益的問題尤其牽涉到您剛講的休息時間這個部分我們會再做一些討論\n433439\t442775\t上幼兒園有人力比的問題所以勞動密度就我們去上勞檢的時候檢查的項目裡邊\n443857\t469369\t基本上去查的是勞動基準法就業服務法勞工保險條例那勞工職業災害保險跟保護法和勞工退休金條例這些法規都有去做檢查可是沒有去看這個勞動密度私生比如果不符合的話這也是他的勞動條件所以一個老師帶22個小孩跟法規規定他一個老師帶15個小孩現在目前就已經過度負擔甚至有\n470589\t494461\t右交界說是不是可以1比12可是現在他1比22、1比28、29都還是大有人在的狀態裡邊好像在勞動檢查的時候並不受理這一塊應該一合理的去做配置所以想問的是說那是不是勞動部可以做出承諾包含剛剛我們前面講的就是休息這一塊\n495621\t523797\t然後是不是針對於這個密度勞動密度比較高的也能夠去納入檢查的項目報告委員因為有關於那個師生筆那種人力配置他的權責是在教育主管機關所以他是他的稽查項目但不是我的勞檢項目因為權責有各有劃分但是呢我們其實在檢查的時候發現有這種情形就應該要反映給教育主管機關\n524918\t534409\t那是不是也可以請你們在這是要跟教育部討論的時候一併去做討論這個部分我們在橫向聯繫部會來加強就是我們去講答案我發現這個私生筆像剛剛委員講的這個跟原來規範已經差太多了\n540697\t558016\t這個我們會彙整給這個教育主管機關那就是請你們再跟教育部討論完之後會後把書面資料回覆我們辦公室然後也請勞動部不要看我是新科立委就糊弄我因為很多東西都我要的時間點大概都沒按照那時間點給我\n560083\t579137\t報告委員好像都給不好意思因為有些東西他們可能要彙整尤其一些統計的或什麼的所以以後在時間上會跟委員先說明一下就是說如果沒辦法馬上給要跟委員一個說明不過現在委員應該都已經有提供決定了不會啦我們一定是非常尊重委員的只是說可能\n581859\t604754\t同仁在聯繫上應該要主動的去說明說因為什麼原因沒有辦法在這個時候提供我想委員也會能夠諒解但是絕對沒有對委員任何不敬我們一定是就麻煩因為我覺得我們要資料因為也有考慮到我們整個案子的那個期程所以麻煩以上謝謝這個我會折騰任務單位要注意謝謝林月琴委員\n","txt":"主席好 我們有請我們的部長 請許部長林委員好 部長好我今天要幫一群人 就是我們的幼兒園\n委員長或老師、教保人員\n部長看一下事實上我們的公立幼兒園還是有一群事實上是用勞動基準法的也就是我們的教保人員那大私利跟非營利就不用講部長看到這個覺得如何把勞基法的人員當下人在管理所以能不能請之下還要看院長那說了算而且血尿也不能夠隨便離開\n他已經是生病了他還要能呆在那裡他不能夠離開現場甚至他特休假也要找人能夠代理他才能夠去特休假\n所以這是我的學生傳給我的訊息他是一個任職在幼兒園的幼教人員因為身體不適可是還是沒有辦法而年休假的時候還要找到人才可以去休假這個是多麼不友善的職場環境如果老師這樣不被善待他怎麼可能照顧好小孩可是我們這幾年也我們的政府的政策要讓孩子能夠進入到托育現場裡邊\n那可是照顧他的人是這群老師他就沒有被好好的對待那才會產生說有老師對孩子不當對待因為老師本身就被不當不當對待所以想問的就是這些甚至勞健保的一些知識跟申訴跟權力像救濟方法的知識他們都不太知道所以才會有如果孩子常病毒抱歉你就整班停課的時候你們兩個老師就是無薪假\n獲得是直接扣薪那在這樣的狀況底下這麼惡劣的環境甚至今天要離職也離不了職為什麼因為僱主跟他講說如果要離職的話你氣味還沒到你就要罰20萬這時有所聞每次學生都會來跟我求助這些事情\n那所以也想問的是就是說我們總共呢8223家的幼兒園跟托嬰中心那可是你在你只查了501家大概6%所以想問一下怎麼定出這個6%依據是什麼要勞動檢查才知道這些在現場的人他到底有沒有被友善對待是靠勞檢那所以想問一下你的依據是什麼\n報告委員那個我們每年的那個專案獎因為也是位於我們的勞檢人力啦吼因為其實各行各業高風險高違規的吼然後這個我們都吼要去查每年勞檢都是就是這樣嗎沒有啊我們會有針對一些吼可能就是曾經有不良記錄的吼或者這個有\n有申訴的有申訴案件的我們也會列入專案檢查的對象部長這如果大人的現場還OK可是是照顧孩子的現場如果這麼不友善的話那我說難怪我們會時有所聞說老師對孩子不當對待而虐的狀況發生那因為老師就沒有好好的被對待啊所以我不知道就是說這6%你的依據到底會是什麼是不是可以去思考一下這個狀況\n委員這個部分我請那個治安署這邊來檢討就是說在專案檢查的比例上比例上我們是不是把這個幼兒園的部分再來提高我覺得這個是可以檢討的那你的勞動檢查員的專業知識可能也要提升為什麼這麼講就是這事實上是收到的公文因為有幼兒園他去申訴之後然後呢就有人來勞檢嘛那勞檢呢照理來講\n針對這個勞動檢查案例來講工時、工資、休假休息跟放假這些都不是應該是僱主可以違反的項目可是很遺憾的是這還是幼教人非常困擾的因為中午這個午休時間\n當他要去申訴的時候竟然是勞工出勤的紀錄是僱主所納入勞檢的項目可是今天要問的是可是重點是他們能夠要提出證據竟然是誰要提出證據是勞工要提出證據怎麼會是勞工要提出這個證據來給因為舉證在勞方這公文很顯示的是舉證在勞方不是在資方\n這個基本上我們去勞檢這個證據的就是這些出勤實際的出勤請醒的記錄是要由僱主來提供可是這是你們勞動檢察員今天寫出來公文是這樣子的話那怎麼會是要勞方來提供不是資方因為要舉證嘛所以我根本都沒有休息啊那可能是可能是僱主提出來的\n紀錄跟勞工實際情形有落差所以為了要理清楚那勞檢員當然會要求說這樣落實4小時休息30分鐘現在是幼教人最大的訴求所以在這邊我們要很嚴肅的講幾乎所有的私營幼兒園在中午休息時間都必須陪著孩子睡覺跟勞動基準法的規定事實上是相反的\n所以孩子如果乖乖睡覺當然或許老師就可以睡覺可是如果不是的話老師要繼續照顧那這個休息就是不存在所以本席認為能不能我們當然沒有辦法裝作沒有看到這個問題應該積極下去去處理那讓勞動的條件去符合法規的一些規定所以請勞動部會同教育部去了解一下這個問題提出解決的方案讓全國的\n十有做輔導。這個不知道部長同意嗎?好,可以。其實我們針對中午休息幼兒園的部分我們在今年1月25日有開過會議後續還會再開就是有關於幼兒園勞工相關權益的問題尤其牽涉到您剛講的休息時間這個部分我們會再做一些討論\n上幼兒園有人力比的問題所以勞動密度就我們去上勞檢的時候檢查的項目裡邊\n基本上去查的是勞動基準法就業服務法勞工保險條例那勞工職業災害保險跟保護法和勞工退休金條例這些法規都有去做檢查可是沒有去看這個勞動密度私生比如果不符合的話這也是他的勞動條件所以一個老師帶22個小孩跟法規規定他一個老師帶15個小孩現在目前就已經過度負擔甚至有\n右交界說是不是可以1比12可是現在他1比22、1比28、29都還是大有人在的狀態裡邊好像在勞動檢查的時候並不受理這一塊應該一合理的去做配置所以想問的是說那是不是勞動部可以做出承諾包含剛剛我們前面講的就是休息這一塊\n然後是不是針對於這個密度勞動密度比較高的也能夠去納入檢查的項目報告委員因為有關於那個師生筆那種人力配置他的權責是在教育主管機關所以他是他的稽查項目但不是我的勞檢項目因為權責有各有劃分但是呢我們其實在檢查的時候發現有這種情形就應該要反映給教育主管機關\n那是不是也可以請你們在這是要跟教育部討論的時候一併去做討論這個部分我們在橫向聯繫部會來加強就是我們去講答案我發現這個私生筆像剛剛委員講的這個跟原來規範已經差太多了\n這個我們會彙整給這個教育主管機關那就是請你們再跟教育部討論完之後會後把書面資料回覆我們辦公室然後也請勞動部不要看我是新科立委就糊弄我因為很多東西都我要的時間點大概都沒按照那時間點給我\n報告委員好像都給不好意思因為有些東西他們可能要彙整尤其一些統計的或什麼的所以以後在時間上會跟委員先說明一下就是說如果沒辦法馬上給要跟委員一個說明不過現在委員應該都已經有提供決定了不會啦我們一定是非常尊重委員的只是說可能\n同仁在聯繫上應該要主動的去說明說因為什麼原因沒有辦法在這個時候提供我想委員也會能夠諒解但是絕對沒有對委員任何不敬我們一定是就麻煩因為我覺得我們要資料因為也有考慮到我們整個案子的那個期程所以麻煩以上謝謝這個我會折騰任務單位要注意謝謝林月琴委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.759 --> 00:12.580\n主席好我們有請我們的部長請許部長林委員好部長好我今天要幫一群人就是我們的幼兒園\n\n00:24.632 --> 00:26.433\n委員長或老師、教保人員\n\n00:52.314 --> 01:16.371\n部長看一下事實上我們的公立幼兒園還是有一群事實上是用勞動基準法的也就是我們的教保人員那大私利跟非營利就不用講部長看到這個覺得如何把勞基法的人員當下人在管理所以能不能請之下還要看院長那說了算而且血尿也不能夠隨便離開\n\n01:18.849 --> 01:31.415\n他已經是生病了他還要能呆在那裡他不能夠離開現場甚至他特休假也要找人能夠代理他才能夠去特休假\n\n01:33.081 --> 01:57.224\n所以這是我的學生傳給我的訊息他是一個任職在幼兒園的幼教人員因為身體不適可是還是沒有辦法而年休假的時候還要找到人才可以去休假這個是多麼不友善的職場環境如果老師這樣不被善待他怎麼可能照顧好小孩可是我們這幾年也我們的政府的政策要讓孩子能夠進入到托育現場裡邊\n\n01:58.775 --> 02:27.442\n那可是照顧他的人是這群老師他就沒有被好好的對待那才會產生說有老師對孩子不當對待因為老師本身就被不當不當對待所以想問的就是這些甚至勞健保的一些知識跟申訴跟權力像救濟方法的知識他們都不太知道所以才會有如果孩子常病毒抱歉你就整班停課的時候你們兩個老師就是無薪假\n\n02:28.383 --> 02:45.704\n獲得是直接扣薪那在這樣的狀況底下這麼惡劣的環境甚至今天要離職也離不了職為什麼因為僱主跟他講說如果要離職的話你氣味還沒到你就要罰20萬這時有所聞每次學生都會來跟我求助這些事情\n\n02:46.516 --> 03:14.593\n那所以也想問的是就是說我們總共呢8223家的幼兒園跟托嬰中心那可是你在你只查了501家大概6%所以想問一下怎麼定出這個6%依據是什麼要勞動檢查才知道這些在現場的人他到底有沒有被友善對待是靠勞檢那所以想問一下你的依據是什麼\n\n03:16.582 --> 03:37.191\n報告委員那個我們每年的那個專案獎因為也是位於我們的勞檢人力啦吼因為其實各行各業高風險高違規的吼然後這個我們都吼要去查每年勞檢都是就是這樣嗎沒有啊我們會有針對一些吼可能就是曾經有不良記錄的吼或者這個有\n\n03:37.811 --> 04:05.068\n有申訴的有申訴案件的我們也會列入專案檢查的對象部長這如果大人的現場還OK可是是照顧孩子的現場如果這麼不友善的話那我說難怪我們會時有所聞說老師對孩子不當對待而虐的狀況發生那因為老師就沒有好好的被對待啊所以我不知道就是說這6%你的依據到底會是什麼是不是可以去思考一下這個狀況\n\n04:07.270 --> 04:33.128\n委員這個部分我請那個治安署這邊來檢討就是說在專案檢查的比例上比例上我們是不是把這個幼兒園的部分再來提高我覺得這個是可以檢討的那你的勞動檢查員的專業知識可能也要提升為什麼這麼講就是這事實上是收到的公文因為有幼兒園他去申訴之後然後呢就有人來勞檢嘛那勞檢呢照理來講\n\n04:39.686 --> 04:53.364\n針對這個勞動檢查案例來講工時、工資、休假休息跟放假這些都不是應該是僱主可以違反的項目可是很遺憾的是這還是幼教人非常困擾的因為中午這個午休時間\n\n04:56.367 --> 05:24.285\n當他要去申訴的時候竟然是勞工出勤的紀錄是僱主所納入勞檢的項目可是今天要問的是可是重點是他們能夠要提出證據竟然是誰要提出證據是勞工要提出證據怎麼會是勞工要提出這個證據來給因為舉證在勞方這公文很顯示的是舉證在勞方不是在資方\n\n05:28.313 --> 05:53.526\n這個基本上我們去勞檢這個證據的就是這些出勤實際的出勤請醒的記錄是要由僱主來提供可是這是你們勞動檢察員今天寫出來公文是這樣子的話那怎麼會是要勞方來提供不是資方因為要舉證嘛所以我根本都沒有休息啊那可能是可能是僱主提出來的\n\n05:55.740 --> 06:22.299\n紀錄跟勞工實際情形有落差所以為了要理清楚那勞檢員當然會要求說這樣落實4小時休息30分鐘現在是幼教人最大的訴求所以在這邊我們要很嚴肅的講幾乎所有的私營幼兒園在中午休息時間都必須陪著孩子睡覺跟勞動基準法的規定事實上是相反的\n\n06:23.561 --> 06:47.408\n所以孩子如果乖乖睡覺當然或許老師就可以睡覺可是如果不是的話老師要繼續照顧那這個休息就是不存在所以本席認為能不能我們當然沒有辦法裝作沒有看到這個問題應該積極下去去處理那讓勞動的條件去符合法規的一些規定所以請勞動部會同教育部去了解一下這個問題提出解決的方案讓全國的\n\n06:47.913 --> 06:59.616\n十有做輔導。這個不知道部長同意嗎?好,可以。其實我們針對中午休息幼兒園的部分我們在今年1月25日有開過會議後續還會再開就是有關於幼兒園勞工相關權益的問題尤其牽涉到您剛講的休息時間這個部分我們會再做一些討論\n\n07:13.439 --> 07:22.775\n上幼兒園有人力比的問題所以勞動密度就我們去上勞檢的時候檢查的項目裡邊\n\n07:23.857 --> 07:49.369\n基本上去查的是勞動基準法就業服務法勞工保險條例那勞工職業災害保險跟保護法和勞工退休金條例這些法規都有去做檢查可是沒有去看這個勞動密度私生比如果不符合的話這也是他的勞動條件所以一個老師帶22個小孩跟法規規定他一個老師帶15個小孩現在目前就已經過度負擔甚至有\n\n07:50.589 --> 08:14.461\n右交界說是不是可以1比12可是現在他1比22、1比28、29都還是大有人在的狀態裡邊好像在勞動檢查的時候並不受理這一塊應該一合理的去做配置所以想問的是說那是不是勞動部可以做出承諾包含剛剛我們前面講的就是休息這一塊\n\n08:15.621 --> 08:43.797\n然後是不是針對於這個密度勞動密度比較高的也能夠去納入檢查的項目報告委員因為有關於那個師生筆那種人力配置他的權責是在教育主管機關所以他是他的稽查項目但不是我的勞檢項目因為權責有各有劃分但是呢我們其實在檢查的時候發現有這種情形就應該要反映給教育主管機關\n\n08:44.918 --> 08:54.409\n那是不是也可以請你們在這是要跟教育部討論的時候一併去做討論這個部分我們在橫向聯繫部會來加強就是我們去講答案我發現這個私生筆像剛剛委員講的這個跟原來規範已經差太多了\n\n09:00.697 --> 09:18.016\n這個我們會彙整給這個教育主管機關那就是請你們再跟教育部討論完之後會後把書面資料回覆我們辦公室然後也請勞動部不要看我是新科立委就糊弄我因為很多東西都我要的時間點大概都沒按照那時間點給我\n\n09:20.083 --> 09:39.137\n報告委員好像都給不好意思因為有些東西他們可能要彙整尤其一些統計的或什麼的所以以後在時間上會跟委員先說明一下就是說如果沒辦法馬上給要跟委員一個說明不過現在委員應該都已經有提供決定了不會啦我們一定是非常尊重委員的只是說可能\n\n09:41.859 --> 10:04.754\n同仁在聯繫上應該要主動的去說明說因為什麼原因沒有辦法在這個時候提供我想委員也會能夠諒解但是絕對沒有對委員任何不敬我們一定是就麻煩因為我覺得我們要資料因為也有考慮到我們整個案子的那個期程所以麻煩以上謝謝這個我會折騰任務單位要注意謝謝林月琴委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.759,"end":12.58,"text":"主席好 我們有請我們的部長 請許部長林委員好 部長好我今天要幫一群人 就是我們的幼兒園"},{"start":24.632,"end":26.433,"text":"委員長或老師、教保人員"},{"start":52.314,"end":76.371,"text":"部長看一下事實上我們的公立幼兒園還是有一群事實上是用勞動基準法的也就是我們的教保人員那大私利跟非營利就不用講部長看到這個覺得如何把勞基法的人員當下人在管理所以能不能請之下還要看院長那說了算而且血尿也不能夠隨便離開"},{"start":78.849,"end":91.415,"text":"他已經是生病了他還要能呆在那裡他不能夠離開現場甚至他特休假也要找人能夠代理他才能夠去特休假"},{"start":93.081,"end":117.224,"text":"所以這是我的學生傳給我的訊息他是一個任職在幼兒園的幼教人員因為身體不適可是還是沒有辦法而年休假的時候還要找到人才可以去休假這個是多麼不友善的職場環境如果老師這樣不被善待他怎麼可能照顧好小孩可是我們這幾年也我們的政府的政策要讓孩子能夠進入到托育現場裡邊"},{"start":118.775,"end":147.442,"text":"那可是照顧他的人是這群老師他就沒有被好好的對待那才會產生說有老師對孩子不當對待因為老師本身就被不當不當對待所以想問的就是這些甚至勞健保的一些知識跟申訴跟權力像救濟方法的知識他們都不太知道所以才會有如果孩子常病毒抱歉你就整班停課的時候你們兩個老師就是無薪假"},{"start":148.383,"end":165.704,"text":"獲得是直接扣薪那在這樣的狀況底下這麼惡劣的環境甚至今天要離職也離不了職為什麼因為僱主跟他講說如果要離職的話你氣味還沒到你就要罰20萬這時有所聞每次學生都會來跟我求助這些事情"},{"start":166.516,"end":194.593,"text":"那所以也想問的是就是說我們總共呢8223家的幼兒園跟托嬰中心那可是你在你只查了501家大概6%所以想問一下怎麼定出這個6%依據是什麼要勞動檢查才知道這些在現場的人他到底有沒有被友善對待是靠勞檢那所以想問一下你的依據是什麼"},{"start":196.582,"end":217.191,"text":"報告委員那個我們每年的那個專案獎因為也是位於我們的勞檢人力啦吼因為其實各行各業高風險高違規的吼然後這個我們都吼要去查每年勞檢都是就是這樣嗎沒有啊我們會有針對一些吼可能就是曾經有不良記錄的吼或者這個有"},{"start":217.811,"end":245.068,"text":"有申訴的有申訴案件的我們也會列入專案檢查的對象部長這如果大人的現場還OK可是是照顧孩子的現場如果這麼不友善的話那我說難怪我們會時有所聞說老師對孩子不當對待而虐的狀況發生那因為老師就沒有好好的被對待啊所以我不知道就是說這6%你的依據到底會是什麼是不是可以去思考一下這個狀況"},{"start":247.27,"end":273.128,"text":"委員這個部分我請那個治安署這邊來檢討就是說在專案檢查的比例上比例上我們是不是把這個幼兒園的部分再來提高我覺得這個是可以檢討的那你的勞動檢查員的專業知識可能也要提升為什麼這麼講就是這事實上是收到的公文因為有幼兒園他去申訴之後然後呢就有人來勞檢嘛那勞檢呢照理來講"},{"start":279.686,"end":293.364,"text":"針對這個勞動檢查案例來講工時、工資、休假休息跟放假這些都不是應該是僱主可以違反的項目可是很遺憾的是這還是幼教人非常困擾的因為中午這個午休時間"},{"start":296.367,"end":324.285,"text":"當他要去申訴的時候竟然是勞工出勤的紀錄是僱主所納入勞檢的項目可是今天要問的是可是重點是他們能夠要提出證據竟然是誰要提出證據是勞工要提出證據怎麼會是勞工要提出這個證據來給因為舉證在勞方這公文很顯示的是舉證在勞方不是在資方"},{"start":328.313,"end":353.526,"text":"這個基本上我們去勞檢這個證據的就是這些出勤實際的出勤請醒的記錄是要由僱主來提供可是這是你們勞動檢察員今天寫出來公文是這樣子的話那怎麼會是要勞方來提供不是資方因為要舉證嘛所以我根本都沒有休息啊那可能是可能是僱主提出來的"},{"start":355.74,"end":382.299,"text":"紀錄跟勞工實際情形有落差所以為了要理清楚那勞檢員當然會要求說這樣落實4小時休息30分鐘現在是幼教人最大的訴求所以在這邊我們要很嚴肅的講幾乎所有的私營幼兒園在中午休息時間都必須陪著孩子睡覺跟勞動基準法的規定事實上是相反的"},{"start":383.561,"end":407.408,"text":"所以孩子如果乖乖睡覺當然或許老師就可以睡覺可是如果不是的話老師要繼續照顧那這個休息就是不存在所以本席認為能不能我們當然沒有辦法裝作沒有看到這個問題應該積極下去去處理那讓勞動的條件去符合法規的一些規定所以請勞動部會同教育部去了解一下這個問題提出解決的方案讓全國的"},{"start":407.913,"end":419.616,"text":"十有做輔導。這個不知道部長同意嗎?好,可以。其實我們針對中午休息幼兒園的部分我們在今年1月25日有開過會議後續還會再開就是有關於幼兒園勞工相關權益的問題尤其牽涉到您剛講的休息時間這個部分我們會再做一些討論"},{"start":433.439,"end":442.775,"text":"上幼兒園有人力比的問題所以勞動密度就我們去上勞檢的時候檢查的項目裡邊"},{"start":443.857,"end":469.369,"text":"基本上去查的是勞動基準法就業服務法勞工保險條例那勞工職業災害保險跟保護法和勞工退休金條例這些法規都有去做檢查可是沒有去看這個勞動密度私生比如果不符合的話這也是他的勞動條件所以一個老師帶22個小孩跟法規規定他一個老師帶15個小孩現在目前就已經過度負擔甚至有"},{"start":470.589,"end":494.461,"text":"右交界說是不是可以1比12可是現在他1比22、1比28、29都還是大有人在的狀態裡邊好像在勞動檢查的時候並不受理這一塊應該一合理的去做配置所以想問的是說那是不是勞動部可以做出承諾包含剛剛我們前面講的就是休息這一塊"},{"start":495.621,"end":523.797,"text":"然後是不是針對於這個密度勞動密度比較高的也能夠去納入檢查的項目報告委員因為有關於那個師生筆那種人力配置他的權責是在教育主管機關所以他是他的稽查項目但不是我的勞檢項目因為權責有各有劃分但是呢我們其實在檢查的時候發現有這種情形就應該要反映給教育主管機關"},{"start":524.918,"end":534.409,"text":"那是不是也可以請你們在這是要跟教育部討論的時候一併去做討論這個部分我們在橫向聯繫部會來加強就是我們去講答案我發現這個私生筆像剛剛委員講的這個跟原來規範已經差太多了"},{"start":540.697,"end":558.016,"text":"這個我們會彙整給這個教育主管機關那就是請你們再跟教育部討論完之後會後把書面資料回覆我們辦公室然後也請勞動部不要看我是新科立委就糊弄我因為很多東西都我要的時間點大概都沒按照那時間點給我"},{"start":560.083,"end":579.137,"text":"報告委員好像都給不好意思因為有些東西他們可能要彙整尤其一些統計的或什麼的所以以後在時間上會跟委員先說明一下就是說如果沒辦法馬上給要跟委員一個說明不過現在委員應該都已經有提供決定了不會啦我們一定是非常尊重委員的只是說可能"},{"start":581.859,"end":604.754,"text":"同仁在聯繫上應該要主動的去說明說因為什麼原因沒有辦法在這個時候提供我想委員也會能夠諒解但是絕對沒有對委員任何不敬我們一定是就麻煩因為我覺得我們要資料因為也有考慮到我們整個案子的那個期程所以麻煩以上謝謝這個我會折騰任務單位要注意謝謝林月琴委員"}]}}}}