{"id":150336,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150336","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b519a4200babeae750ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a620552088245ce1945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:27:09 - 10:37:15","影片長度":"00:10:06","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":606,"end_time":"2024-03-25T10:37:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T10:27:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":515,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時27分）主席好，我想請一下龔主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：鄭委員早安。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委好。我想請教一下，按照國發基金112年第3季季報出來的資料，國發基金直接投資新興重要的事業總共有幾家？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：現在直接投資的部分大概有七十家左右，過去的應該大概有一百多家。"],["鄭委員正鈐：七十家，正確答案，沒問題。目前虧損的總共有幾家？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：虧損的應該有四十幾家，是不是？"],["鄭委員正鈐：幾家？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：四十幾家吧，還是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，超過一半以上嘛。所以我這邊特別講一個點，從106年一直到現在，審計部從100年到去年為止，每年提出來的決算報告裡面，審核意見都有特別提到國發基金沒有審慎評估投資效益與風險，也沒有積極監督公司營運與治理，更沒有落實檢討公司經營困境及研提具體改善措施，每年都提，十幾年來都這樣提，國發會顯然把審計部的報告當作耳邊風，也沒有真的去改，還是你們有具體改善什麼樣的部分嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：一個公司是有一個生命週期的，剛開始幾年不可能是賺錢的，所以我們會作分類……"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，沒有問題，來、來。112年1月的時候，監察院對國發基金投資東貝跟如興兩家公司直接提出了糾正案，裡面提到了很多、很多的問題，包括第一個，政策評估會議不公開透明，沒有留存錄音發言紀錄；第二個，國發會產發處缺乏評估依據及過程；第三個，決策軌跡及可課責的內控機制付諸闕如；第四個，盡職調查及企業價值評鑑未確實進行；第五個，忽視外聘專家學者警示意見，這是監察院所提出來的一個報告。主委，對這部分有沒有什麼要特別說明的？國發會有沒有改了什麼地方？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，我們的機制是這樣，我們有一個投資評估審議會，這個審議會是匿名投票，所以由委員來決定，那所有剛剛講的這一些專家學者的意見，或是我們做DD的部分，全部這些委員他都會看過，看過以後……"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是他是匿名投票，他是不公開的嘛！對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以基本上都不公開，我另外從審計部這邊提出來的一個決算報告裡面，它特別提到了一個兆遠的投資項目，主委知道這個案子嗎？兆遠投資。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我知道。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你們是不是碰到詐騙集團了？你覺得。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為每一個投資它當然就會講說它有什麼規劃……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你們是碰到詐騙集團了嘛！我為什麼這樣講一定是有原因的，拜託，我們來看整個的程序，108年1月31號開始評估這個部分，到4月份的時候，投資評估審議會通過要投資2億496元，投資進去了之後，馬上兆遠就減資，你投資進去馬上就減資，而且本來答應要給國發基金一席董事還有一席獨董，結果都沒有給喔！然後我們投資兩億多進去就被減資了，然後減資還不是只有一次，減資完之後，一年多它給你董事，這個過程當中我們的股權投資狀態的時候，完全是一個沒有去管理的情況，然後我們裡面也沒有能力去管理，因為當時投資裡面的協議就沒有規範到這個部分，然後我們又再一次碰到第二次的減資，主委你知道這狀態嗎？所以我說國發基金在投兆遠的時候是不是碰到了一個詐騙集團，你投進去之後，董事都還沒有派任，它就把你減資減掉了，主委要不要說明一下？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為當時我沒有在會裡面，但是我看後面的一些資料，的確我們是有派董事進去，的確後來……"],["鄭委員正鈐：派董事進去，但是減資以後才讓你派進去啊！主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，它的確是先減資，然後我們派進去。"],["鄭委員正鈐：減資，不讓你們進去，然後再減資一次啊！所以這個部分，為什麼特別一開始講從整個東貝、如興，一下子到兆遠這邊的時候，你剛剛一開始就提到了，我們在投資評估審議委員會，它是不透明的、不公開的，所以到底是怎麼樣，當時為什麼投兆遠？是主委還是特定的人去保駕護航就直接去投，它有真的真正經過一個專業的評估嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：當然，所有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個部分請主委事後給我一個很清楚的報告，因為這十多年來的時候，國發會對於審計部提出的一個建議完全當作耳邊風，對於整個裡面的評估的嚴謹度來說的時候，完全也都沒有再去落實。我再往下再問一個問題……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，我們七十幾個案子都是這樣啦！沒有偏頗或是說特別針對哪個案子。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以七十幾個案子都是在不公開的狀態，所以到底是怎麼樣去投資……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是不公開……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們也都沒有一個公開的方式……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是有一個投資審議會……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以大家都無從檢驗啊！是不是？國發會裡面愛怎麼樣去投就怎麼樣去投，超過一半以上的重大新興投資案都虧損耶！主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，他是外聘的委員……"],["鄭委員正鈐：超過一半都虧損耶！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有，它那個是還沒有開始賺錢，我是講有些是early stage，你不能要求它成立公司成立……"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，那我們再下來看，那是直接投資的部分，我接下來看一下，我們投資創投的部分，投資創投的部分累積到111年底的時候有293億8,000，將近300億的狀態，我們投報率只有3.01%，平均的年報酬率只有3.01%，投這麼多的錢，報酬率這麼低，這不是我們直接投資，直接投資你有些政策上的需求，本席都可以認同，國發會嘛！你有政策的需求去投資特定的產業，我們認同，可是你現在投的是創投的部分，這樣的成績你滿意嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，投資創投目的也是擴大臺灣的投資量能，並不是為了獲益著想……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解政策的需求，可是你不能用政策的需求對所有的投資表現都沒有去理解，而且對於審計部提出來的我們要去完善的部分也都沒有改進啊！十多年來每年都是這樣子的一個報告，審計部每年都講同樣的事情，國發會也是每年都當作耳邊風，也都沒有去改，這個部分的時候，我們在投創投的時候，尤其有國內、國外的部分，國外的部分的時候，虧損到很嚴重，到虧損25%，最嚴重的，你知道這家公司嗎？Acorn Pacific Ventures Fund，你知道這家公司嗎？國外投資虧損到25%，最後倒數第二家，投資虧損25.19%，我們投資海外創投不是希望能夠引進新的技術對不對？你海外創投當中，你投資有一個部分就是要引進新的技術嘛！過去以來的時候，只有一家創投大和引進了兩個技術，其他都沒有任何的技轉，所以我們投資國外這個部分的時候，我們如果沒有好的技術引進來的時候，我們這樣投有必要嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們現在有開始要做這樣的要求了，所以透過其他的創投是有做這樣的要求。"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在才開始要做這樣的要求？本席之後的時候，請再到本辦公室針對國發會這部分來做一個詳細的說明。另外針對離島地區開發建設貸款這個部分，我看了一個數字，我也是覺得很匪夷所思，從民國95年到現在113年，18年來的時候，離島地區開發建設貸款只有一年有，然後近來的這10年幾乎都沒有，然後我們還是維持一個預算數，從一開始的17億到現在的2,000萬，我在想說我們國發會可能是不想做這個業務，如果是這樣的時候，如果是為了要保留科目，我們就把它減掉喔，剩10萬塊就好啦！我們提案減掉1,990萬啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，報告委員，案子我們都有送啊！就是累計貸放的數目都有，只是送到銀行，銀行發現這個案子不錯，它用它自己的基金借了，就沒有動到我們基金，它用它自己……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以是銀行就自己把它給處理掉了？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對這個部分，這樣的說法我覺得可能不是很全面，到時候再到本辦公室來做一個說明，如果說只是為了要保留預算科目，我們就直接把它保留剩10萬塊就好，不需要2,000萬。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們案子都可以提供給委員參考。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好的。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員發言，我們在賴瑞隆委員發言之後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:49,171\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n4\n00:01:00,069 --> 00:01:23,628\n去年為止每年提出來的一個決算報告裡面的審核意見都有特別提到國發基金沒有審慎評估投資效益與風險也沒有積極監督公司營運與治理更沒有落實監討公司經營困境及嚴提具體改善的措施每年都提十幾年來都這樣提然後國發基金這邊國發會這邊顯然把審計部當作的報告當作耳邊風也沒有真的去改\n\n5\n00:01:27,811 --> 00:01:54,861\n還是我們有具體改善什麼樣子的部分嗎?我想投資一個一個公司它是有一個週期性生命週期好沒有問題喔剛開始幾年不可能是賺錢的啦沒有問題喔來來來112年1月的時候監察院對國發基金投資東北跟盧興兩家公司直接提出了一個糾正案裡面提到了很多很多的問題喔包括了\n\n6\n00:01:55,461 --> 00:02:00,688\n政策評估會議不公開透明沒有留存錄音發言記錄二、國發會產發處缺乏評估依據及過程決策軌跡可擇的內控機制付諸確如\n\n7\n00:02:11,882 --> 00:02:26,630\n四、淨值調查及企業價值評鑑未確實進行五、忽視外聘專家學者警示意見這是整個監察院所提出來的一個報告主委對這部分有沒有什麼要特別說明的?\n\n8\n00:02:27,315 --> 00:02:31,398\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算\n\n9\n00:02:57,295 --> 00:03:02,440\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n10\n00:03:16,357 --> 00:03:20,019\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n11\n00:03:43,456 --> 00:03:46,202\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n12\n00:03:52,379 --> 00:04:15,916\n結果都沒有給喔都沒有給然後我們投資兩億多進去就被減資了減資還不是只有一次減資完之後呢一年多他給你董事他給你董事這過程當中我們的股權投資的狀態的時候呢完全是一個沒有去管理的一個情況然後我們裡面也沒有\n\n13\n00:04:16,476 --> 00:04:19,398\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n14\n00:04:41,872 --> 00:04:52,567\n包委員因為當時我沒有在會裡面但是我看後面的一些資料的確我們是有派董事進去的確後來...派董事進去在檢制以後才讓你派進去啦主委\n\n15\n00:04:54,344 --> 00:04:57,165\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n16\n00:05:16,852 --> 00:05:44,315\n是主委還是特定的人去保駕護航就直接去投?還有真正經過一個專業的一個評估嗎?這個部分請主委之後事後給我一個很清楚的一個報告因為這10多年來的時候國發會對於審計部的一個提出的一個建議完全當作耳邊風對於整個裡面的一個評估的一個嚴謹度來說的時候完全也都沒有再去落實\n\n17\n00:05:45,276 --> 00:06:09,548\n那我再往下再問一個問題我們70幾個案子都是這樣的沒有偏頗啦或是說所以70幾個案子都是在不公開的狀態所以到底是怎麼樣去投資我們也都沒有一個公開的方式所以大家都無從檢驗阿是不是就國發會裡面愛怎麼樣去投就怎麼樣去投超過一半以上的重大新興投資家都虧損欸主委超過一半都虧損欸\n\n18\n00:06:11,889 --> 00:06:19,454\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n19\n00:06:37,765 --> 00:07:04,146\n平均的年報酬率只有3.1投這麼多的錢報酬率這麼低那這不是我們直接投資直接投資你有一些政策上的需求本席都可以認同國發會嘛你有政策的一個需求去投資特定的產業我們認同可是你現在投的是創投的部分這樣的成績你滿意嗎?瓜委員籌資創投目的也是擴大台灣的籌資量能並不是為了獲益著想\n\n20\n00:07:05,647 --> 00:07:27,483\n理解政策需求可你不能用政策需求對所有的一個投資表現都沒有去理解而且對於審計部提出來的我們要去完善的部分也都沒有改進啊十多年來每年都是這樣子的一個報告審計部每年都講同樣的事情國發會也是每年都當作有邊封也都沒有去改那這個部分的時候呢齁\n\n21\n00:07:28,163 --> 00:07:31,626\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算\n\n22\n00:07:52,506 --> 00:08:17,114\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算\n\n23\n00:08:20,694 --> 00:08:23,430\n引進了兩個計數其他都沒有任何的計算\n\n24\n00:08:24,545 --> 00:08:50,442\n所以我們投資國外這個部分的時候我們如果說沒有好的技術引進來的時候那我們這樣投有必要嗎我們現在有開始要做這樣的要求了所以透過其他的創投室有做這樣的要求現在才開始要做這樣的要求本席之後的時候請再到本辦公室針對國發會這部分來做一個詳細的說明再往下齁那麼另外針對離島地區開發建設貸款這個部分齁\n\n25\n00:08:54,204 --> 00:09:21,741\n我看了一個數字我也是覺得很匪夷所思從民國95年到現在113年18年來的時候離島地區開發建設貸款只有一年有然後近來的這10年幾乎都沒有然後我們還是維持一個預算數從一開始的17億到現在2000萬我在想說我們國防會可能是不想做這個業務如果是這樣的時候我就\n\n26\n00:09:22,790 --> 00:09:26,314\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n27\n00:09:45,232 --> 00:10:02,224\n因為是銀行就自己把它給處理掉了針對這個部分這樣的說法我覺得可能不是很全面到時候再到本辦公室來做一個說明如果說只是為了要保留預算科目我們就直接把它保留剩10萬塊就好不需要2000萬我們的案子都可以提供給委員參考好的好謝謝鄭正前委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9674\t11595\t主席好,我想請一下公主會請公主會\n18380\t42357\t政委員長安主委好我想請教一下就是按照國發基金112年第三季的季報出來的資料我們國發基金直接投資新興重要的事業總共有幾家直接投資的部分大概有70家左右70家嘛正確答案正確答案沒問題那總共目前虧損的有幾家虧損的應該有40幾家是不是幾家\n45845\t49171\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案\n60069\t83628\t去年為止每年提出來的一個決算報告裡面的審核意見都有特別提到國發基金沒有審慎評估投資效益與風險也沒有積極監督公司營運與治理更沒有落實監討公司經營困境及嚴提具體改善的措施每年都提十幾年來都這樣提然後國發基金這邊國發會這邊顯然把審計部當作的報告當作耳邊風也沒有真的去改\n87811\t114861\t還是我們有具體改善什麼樣子的部分嗎?我想投資一個一個公司它是有一個週期性生命週期好沒有問題喔剛開始幾年不可能是賺錢的啦沒有問題喔來來來112年1月的時候監察院對國發基金投資東北跟盧興兩家公司直接提出了一個糾正案裡面提到了很多很多的問題喔包括了\n115461\t120688\t政策評估會議不公開透明沒有留存錄音發言記錄二、國發會產發處缺乏評估依據及過程決策軌跡可擇的內控機制付諸確如\n131882\t146630\t四、淨值調查及企業價值評鑑未確實進行五、忽視外聘專家學者警示意見這是整個監察院所提出來的一個報告主委對這部分有沒有什麼要特別說明的?\n147315\t151398\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算\n177295\t182440\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n196357\t200019\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案\n223456\t226202\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案\n232379\t255916\t結果都沒有給喔都沒有給然後我們投資兩億多進去就被減資了減資還不是只有一次減資完之後呢一年多他給你董事他給你董事這過程當中我們的股權投資的狀態的時候呢完全是一個沒有去管理的一個情況然後我們裡面也沒有\n256476\t259398\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n281872\t292567\t包委員因為當時我沒有在會裡面但是我看後面的一些資料的確我們是有派董事進去的確後來...派董事進去在檢制以後才讓你派進去啦主委\n294344\t297165\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n316852\t344315\t是主委還是特定的人去保駕護航就直接去投?還有真正經過一個專業的一個評估嗎?這個部分請主委之後事後給我一個很清楚的一個報告因為這10多年來的時候國發會對於審計部的一個提出的一個建議完全當作耳邊風對於整個裡面的一個評估的一個嚴謹度來說的時候完全也都沒有再去落實\n345276\t369548\t那我再往下再問一個問題我們70幾個案子都是這樣的沒有偏頗啦或是說所以70幾個案子都是在不公開的狀態所以到底是怎麼樣去投資我們也都沒有一個公開的方式所以大家都無從檢驗阿是不是就國發會裡面愛怎麼樣去投就怎麼樣去投超過一半以上的重大新興投資家都虧損欸主委超過一半都虧損欸\n371889\t379454\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n397765\t424146\t平均的年報酬率只有3.1投這麼多的錢報酬率這麼低那這不是我們直接投資直接投資你有一些政策上的需求本席都可以認同國發會嘛你有政策的一個需求去投資特定的產業我們認同可是你現在投的是創投的部分這樣的成績你滿意嗎?瓜委員籌資創投目的也是擴大台灣的籌資量能並不是為了獲益著想\n425647\t447483\t理解政策需求可你不能用政策需求對所有的一個投資表現都沒有去理解而且對於審計部提出來的我們要去完善的部分也都沒有改進啊十多年來每年都是這樣子的一個報告審計部每年都講同樣的事情國發會也是每年都當作有邊封也都沒有去改那這個部分的時候呢齁\n448163\t451626\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算\n472506\t497114\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算\n500694\t503430\t引進了兩個計數其他都沒有任何的計算\n504545\t530442\t所以我們投資國外這個部分的時候我們如果說沒有好的技術引進來的時候那我們這樣投有必要嗎我們現在有開始要做這樣的要求了所以透過其他的創投室有做這樣的要求現在才開始要做這樣的要求本席之後的時候請再到本辦公室針對國發會這部分來做一個詳細的說明再往下齁那麼另外針對離島地區開發建設貸款這個部分齁\n534204\t561741\t我看了一個數字我也是覺得很匪夷所思從民國95年到現在113年18年來的時候離島地區開發建設貸款只有一年有然後近來的這10年幾乎都沒有然後我們還是維持一個預算數從一開始的17億到現在2000萬我在想說我們國防會可能是不想做這個業務如果是這樣的時候我就\n562790\t566314\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n585232\t602224\t因為是銀行就自己把它給處理掉了針對這個部分這樣的說法我覺得可能不是很全面到時候再到本辦公室來做一個說明如果說只是為了要保留預算科目我們就直接把它保留剩10萬塊就好不需要2000萬我們的案子都可以提供給委員參考好的好謝謝鄭正前委員\n","txt":"主席好,我想請一下公主會請公主會\n政委員長安主委好我想請教一下就是按照國發基金112年第三季的季報出來的資料我們國發基金直接投資新興重要的事業總共有幾家直接投資的部分大概有70家左右70家嘛正確答案正確答案沒問題那總共目前虧損的有幾家虧損的應該有40幾家是不是幾家\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案\n去年為止每年提出來的一個決算報告裡面的審核意見都有特別提到國發基金沒有審慎評估投資效益與風險也沒有積極監督公司營運與治理更沒有落實監討公司經營困境及嚴提具體改善的措施每年都提十幾年來都這樣提然後國發基金這邊國發會這邊顯然把審計部當作的報告當作耳邊風也沒有真的去改\n還是我們有具體改善什麼樣子的部分嗎?我想投資一個一個公司它是有一個週期性生命週期好沒有問題喔剛開始幾年不可能是賺錢的啦沒有問題喔來來來112年1月的時候監察院對國發基金投資東北跟盧興兩家公司直接提出了一個糾正案裡面提到了很多很多的問題喔包括了\n政策評估會議不公開透明沒有留存錄音發言記錄二、國發會產發處缺乏評估依據及過程決策軌跡可擇的內控機制付諸確如\n四、淨值調查及企業價值評鑑未確實進行五、忽視外聘專家學者警示意見這是整個監察院所提出來的一個報告主委對這部分有沒有什麼要特別說明的?\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案\n結果都沒有給喔都沒有給然後我們投資兩億多進去就被減資了減資還不是只有一次減資完之後呢一年多他給你董事他給你董事這過程當中我們的股權投資的狀態的時候呢完全是一個沒有去管理的一個情況然後我們裡面也沒有\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n包委員因為當時我沒有在會裡面但是我看後面的一些資料的確我們是有派董事進去的確後來...派董事進去在檢制以後才讓你派進去啦主委\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n是主委還是特定的人去保駕護航就直接去投?還有真正經過一個專業的一個評估嗎?這個部分請主委之後事後給我一個很清楚的一個報告因為這10多年來的時候國發會對於審計部的一個提出的一個建議完全當作耳邊風對於整個裡面的一個評估的一個嚴謹度來說的時候完全也都沒有再去落實\n那我再往下再問一個問題我們70幾個案子都是這樣的沒有偏頗啦或是說所以70幾個案子都是在不公開的狀態所以到底是怎麼樣去投資我們也都沒有一個公開的方式所以大家都無從檢驗阿是不是就國發會裡面愛怎麼樣去投就怎麼樣去投超過一半以上的重大新興投資家都虧損欸主委超過一半都虧損欸\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n平均的年報酬率只有3.1投這麼多的錢報酬率這麼低那這不是我們直接投資直接投資你有一些政策上的需求本席都可以認同國發會嘛你有政策的一個需求去投資特定的產業我們認同可是你現在投的是創投的部分這樣的成績你滿意嗎?瓜委員籌資創投目的也是擴大台灣的籌資量能並不是為了獲益著想\n理解政策需求可你不能用政策需求對所有的一個投資表現都沒有去理解而且對於審計部提出來的我們要去完善的部分也都沒有改進啊十多年來每年都是這樣子的一個報告審計部每年都講同樣的事情國發會也是每年都當作有邊封也都沒有去改那這個部分的時候呢齁\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算\n引進了兩個計數其他都沒有任何的計算\n所以我們投資國外這個部分的時候我們如果說沒有好的技術引進來的時候那我們這樣投有必要嗎我們現在有開始要做這樣的要求了所以透過其他的創投室有做這樣的要求現在才開始要做這樣的要求本席之後的時候請再到本辦公室針對國發會這部分來做一個詳細的說明再往下齁那麼另外針對離島地區開發建設貸款這個部分齁\n我看了一個數字我也是覺得很匪夷所思從民國95年到現在113年18年來的時候離島地區開發建設貸款只有一年有然後近來的這10年幾乎都沒有然後我們還是維持一個預算數從一開始的17億到現在2000萬我在想說我們國防會可能是不想做這個業務如果是這樣的時候我就\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n因為是銀行就自己把它給處理掉了針對這個部分這樣的說法我覺得可能不是很全面到時候再到本辦公室來做一個說明如果說只是為了要保留預算科目我們就直接把它保留剩10萬塊就好不需要2000萬我們的案子都可以提供給委員參考好的好謝謝鄭正前委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.674 --> 00:11.595\n主席好,我想請一下公主會請公主會\n\n00:18.380 --> 00:42.357\n政委員長安主委好我想請教一下就是按照國發基金112年第三季的季報出來的資料我們國發基金直接投資新興重要的事業總共有幾家直接投資的部分大概有70家左右70家嘛正確答案正確答案沒問題那總共目前虧損的有幾家虧損的應該有40幾家是不是幾家\n\n00:45.845 --> 00:49.171\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n01:00.069 --> 01:23.628\n去年為止每年提出來的一個決算報告裡面的審核意見都有特別提到國發基金沒有審慎評估投資效益與風險也沒有積極監督公司營運與治理更沒有落實監討公司經營困境及嚴提具體改善的措施每年都提十幾年來都這樣提然後國發基金這邊國發會這邊顯然把審計部當作的報告當作耳邊風也沒有真的去改\n\n01:27.811 --> 01:54.861\n還是我們有具體改善什麼樣子的部分嗎?我想投資一個一個公司它是有一個週期性生命週期好沒有問題喔剛開始幾年不可能是賺錢的啦沒有問題喔來來來112年1月的時候監察院對國發基金投資東北跟盧興兩家公司直接提出了一個糾正案裡面提到了很多很多的問題喔包括了\n\n01:55.461 --> 02:00.688\n政策評估會議不公開透明沒有留存錄音發言記錄二、國發會產發處缺乏評估依據及過程決策軌跡可擇的內控機制付諸確如\n\n02:11.882 --> 02:26.630\n四、淨值調查及企業價值評鑑未確實進行五、忽視外聘專家學者警示意見這是整個監察院所提出來的一個報告主委對這部分有沒有什麼要特別說明的?\n\n02:27.315 --> 02:31.398\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算\n\n02:57.295 --> 03:02.440\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n03:16.357 --> 03:20.019\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n03:43.456 --> 03:46.202\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n03:52.379 --> 04:15.916\n結果都沒有給喔都沒有給然後我們投資兩億多進去就被減資了減資還不是只有一次減資完之後呢一年多他給你董事他給你董事這過程當中我們的股權投資的狀態的時候呢完全是一個沒有去管理的一個情況然後我們裡面也沒有\n\n04:16.476 --> 04:19.398\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n04:41.872 --> 04:52.567\n包委員因為當時我沒有在會裡面但是我看後面的一些資料的確我們是有派董事進去的確後來...派董事進去在檢制以後才讓你派進去啦主委\n\n04:54.344 --> 04:57.165\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n05:16.852 --> 05:44.315\n是主委還是特定的人去保駕護航就直接去投?還有真正經過一個專業的一個評估嗎?這個部分請主委之後事後給我一個很清楚的一個報告因為這10多年來的時候國發會對於審計部的一個提出的一個建議完全當作耳邊風對於整個裡面的一個評估的一個嚴謹度來說的時候完全也都沒有再去落實\n\n05:45.276 --> 06:09.548\n那我再往下再問一個問題我們70幾個案子都是這樣的沒有偏頗啦或是說所以70幾個案子都是在不公開的狀態所以到底是怎麼樣去投資我們也都沒有一個公開的方式所以大家都無從檢驗阿是不是就國發會裡面愛怎麼樣去投就怎麼樣去投超過一半以上的重大新興投資家都虧損欸主委超過一半都虧損欸\n\n06:11.889 --> 06:19.454\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n06:37.765 --> 07:04.146\n平均的年報酬率只有3.1投這麼多的錢報酬率這麼低那這不是我們直接投資直接投資你有一些政策上的需求本席都可以認同國發會嘛你有政策的一個需求去投資特定的產業我們認同可是你現在投的是創投的部分這樣的成績你滿意嗎?瓜委員籌資創投目的也是擴大台灣的籌資量能並不是為了獲益著想\n\n07:05.647 --> 07:27.483\n理解政策需求可你不能用政策需求對所有的一個投資表現都沒有去理解而且對於審計部提出來的我們要去完善的部分也都沒有改進啊十多年來每年都是這樣子的一個報告審計部每年都講同樣的事情國發會也是每年都當作有邊封也都沒有去改那這個部分的時候呢齁\n\n07:28.163 --> 07:31.626\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算\n\n07:52.506 --> 08:17.114\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算\n\n08:20.694 --> 08:23.430\n引進了兩個計數其他都沒有任何的計算\n\n08:24.545 --> 08:50.442\n所以我們投資國外這個部分的時候我們如果說沒有好的技術引進來的時候那我們這樣投有必要嗎我們現在有開始要做這樣的要求了所以透過其他的創投室有做這樣的要求現在才開始要做這樣的要求本席之後的時候請再到本辦公室針對國發會這部分來做一個詳細的說明再往下齁那麼另外針對離島地區開發建設貸款這個部分齁\n\n08:54.204 --> 09:21.741\n我看了一個數字我也是覺得很匪夷所思從民國95年到現在113年18年來的時候離島地區開發建設貸款只有一年有然後近來的這10年幾乎都沒有然後我們還是維持一個預算數從一開始的17億到現在2000萬我在想說我們國防會可能是不想做這個業務如果是這樣的時候我就\n\n09:22.790 --> 09:26.314\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案\n\n09:45.232 --> 10:02.224\n因為是銀行就自己把它給處理掉了針對這個部分這樣的說法我覺得可能不是很全面到時候再到本辦公室來做一個說明如果說只是為了要保留預算科目我們就直接把它保留剩10萬塊就好不需要2000萬我們的案子都可以提供給委員參考好的好謝謝鄭正前委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.674,"end":11.595,"text":"主席好,我想請一下公主會請公主會"},{"start":18.38,"end":42.357,"text":"政委員長安主委好我想請教一下就是按照國發基金112年第三季的季報出來的資料我們國發基金直接投資新興重要的事業總共有幾家直接投資的部分大概有70家左右70家嘛正確答案正確答案沒問題那總共目前虧損的有幾家虧損的應該有40幾家是不是幾家"},{"start":45.845,"end":49.171,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":60.069,"end":83.628,"text":"去年為止每年提出來的一個決算報告裡面的審核意見都有特別提到國發基金沒有審慎評估投資效益與風險也沒有積極監督公司營運與治理更沒有落實監討公司經營困境及嚴提具體改善的措施每年都提十幾年來都這樣提然後國發基金這邊國發會這邊顯然把審計部當作的報告當作耳邊風也沒有真的去改"},{"start":87.811,"end":114.861,"text":"還是我們有具體改善什麼樣子的部分嗎?我想投資一個一個公司它是有一個週期性生命週期好沒有問題喔剛開始幾年不可能是賺錢的啦沒有問題喔來來來112年1月的時候監察院對國發基金投資東北跟盧興兩家公司直接提出了一個糾正案裡面提到了很多很多的問題喔包括了"},{"start":115.461,"end":120.688,"text":"政策評估會議不公開透明沒有留存錄音發言記錄二、國發會產發處缺乏評估依據及過程決策軌跡可擇的內控機制付諸確如"},{"start":131.882,"end":146.63,"text":"四、淨值調查及企業價值評鑑未確實進行五、忽視外聘專家學者警示意見這是整個監察院所提出來的一個報告主委對這部分有沒有什麼要特別說明的?"},{"start":147.315,"end":151.398,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算"},{"start":177.295,"end":182.44,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":196.357,"end":200.019,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":223.456,"end":226.202,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":232.379,"end":255.916,"text":"結果都沒有給喔都沒有給然後我們投資兩億多進去就被減資了減資還不是只有一次減資完之後呢一年多他給你董事他給你董事這過程當中我們的股權投資的狀態的時候呢完全是一個沒有去管理的一個情況然後我們裡面也沒有"},{"start":256.476,"end":259.398,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":281.872,"end":292.567,"text":"包委員因為當時我沒有在會裡面但是我看後面的一些資料的確我們是有派董事進去的確後來...派董事進去在檢制以後才讓你派進去啦主委"},{"start":294.344,"end":297.165,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":316.852,"end":344.315,"text":"是主委還是特定的人去保駕護航就直接去投?還有真正經過一個專業的一個評估嗎?這個部分請主委之後事後給我一個很清楚的一個報告因為這10多年來的時候國發會對於審計部的一個提出的一個建議完全當作耳邊風對於整個裡面的一個評估的一個嚴謹度來說的時候完全也都沒有再去落實"},{"start":345.276,"end":369.548,"text":"那我再往下再問一個問題我們70幾個案子都是這樣的沒有偏頗啦或是說所以70幾個案子都是在不公開的狀態所以到底是怎麼樣去投資我們也都沒有一個公開的方式所以大家都無從檢驗阿是不是就國發會裡面愛怎麼樣去投就怎麼樣去投超過一半以上的重大新興投資家都虧損欸主委超過一半都虧損欸"},{"start":371.889,"end":379.454,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":397.765,"end":424.146,"text":"平均的年報酬率只有3.1投這麼多的錢報酬率這麼低那這不是我們直接投資直接投資你有一些政策上的需求本席都可以認同國發會嘛你有政策的一個需求去投資特定的產業我們認同可是你現在投的是創投的部分這樣的成績你滿意嗎?瓜委員籌資創投目的也是擴大台灣的籌資量能並不是為了獲益著想"},{"start":425.647,"end":447.483,"text":"理解政策需求可你不能用政策需求對所有的一個投資表現都沒有去理解而且對於審計部提出來的我們要去完善的部分也都沒有改進啊十多年來每年都是這樣子的一個報告審計部每年都講同樣的事情國發會也是每年都當作有邊封也都沒有去改那這個部分的時候呢齁"},{"start":448.163,"end":451.626,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算"},{"start":472.506,"end":497.114,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算"},{"start":500.694,"end":503.43,"text":"引進了兩個計數其他都沒有任何的計算"},{"start":504.545,"end":530.442,"text":"所以我們投資國外這個部分的時候我們如果說沒有好的技術引進來的時候那我們這樣投有必要嗎我們現在有開始要做這樣的要求了所以透過其他的創投室有做這樣的要求現在才開始要做這樣的要求本席之後的時候請再到本辦公室針對國發會這部分來做一個詳細的說明再往下齁那麼另外針對離島地區開發建設貸款這個部分齁"},{"start":534.204,"end":561.741,"text":"我看了一個數字我也是覺得很匪夷所思從民國95年到現在113年18年來的時候離島地區開發建設貸款只有一年有然後近來的這10年幾乎都沒有然後我們還是維持一個預算數從一開始的17億到現在2000萬我在想說我們國防會可能是不想做這個業務如果是這樣的時候我就"},{"start":562.79,"end":566.314,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展基金及所屬主管預算凍結案"},{"start":585.232,"end":602.224,"text":"因為是銀行就自己把它給處理掉了針對這個部分這樣的說法我覺得可能不是很全面到時候再到本辦公室來做一個說明如果說只是為了要保留預算科目我們就直接把它保留剩10萬塊就好不需要2000萬我們的案子都可以提供給委員參考好的好謝謝鄭正前委員"}]}}}}