{"id":150363,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150363","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b7597190d32e03faee5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a61d18f229ee2f58aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:30:27 - 11:45:46","影片長度":"00:15:19","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-8"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":919,"end_time":"2024-03-25T11:45:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T11:30:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":805,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時30分）謝謝主席。我們是不是還是請許部長？"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，午安。我們還是要關心一下佳豐鋁業，佳豐鋁業爆炸導致2死6傷，其實是很重大的工安危機，死者都是移工，重傷的有3位本國籍、3位外國籍，完全暴露了3K產業的工作環境以及它的職業安全急迫性的提升與改善。今天我們在這裡當然要討論它之外，也要再討論如何輔導業者、督導業者，除了要遵循法遵之外，其實更要重視職業安全及衛生。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員淑芬：我們的就服法第五十四條講到，如果雇主因為重大的職災造成移工死亡或失能，得以廢止聘僱許可等，但是這個都是事後，當然防範於事前更重要，所以你是否有辦法將重大職災的預防措施執行狀況列為申請聘僱移工的標準？也就是說，應該要有什麼配套，聘僱移工時要有這樣的能力或配套，我們才得以准許？","我們再說回來，根據高雄市政府的說法，佳豐鋁業從2021年起就執行過14次安衛的勞動檢查，一共發現了5項違規，這個違規是什麼？它的違規就是沒有依規定針對新進勞工或特殊作業勞工實施安全教育訓練，或是教育訓練不足，以及未依規定實施機械設備與車輛機械自動檢查。後來並未針對當時的5項違規開罰，沒有開罰的原因是它在期限內的確改善了，所以沒有開罰。但是我們都知道，所謂的限期改善，你說你要針對新進勞工做安全教育、要實施機械設備及車輛機械自動檢查，這些其實都是書面資料，而且書面資料連檢附照片都不用，所以沒有開罰，但是不是真的做了，我們不知道，老實說。這個規定沒有要求書面資料、也沒有要求檢附影像資料，它將書面資料送過來，你們當然就認定它是改善了。但我們從事後來看，它今天是水滲入鋁湯當中，所以對於機械設備的操作以及教育訓練的確就是關鍵。之前它的教育訓練及機械設備操作也發生過違規，而你們也認為它改善了，所以我們的要求標準其實是很低的，書面而已，有沒有再檢討的空間？"],["許部長銘春：可以，報告委員，在它的書面送過來之後，我們其實也會去現場複查……"],["林委員淑芬：這個有去複查過嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["林委員淑芬：有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：應該……"],["林委員淑芬：怎麼複查法？有沒有教育訓練要怎麼複查？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們檢查……"],["林委員淑芬：寫了切結書？"],["鄒署長子廉：現場看的缺失，譬如勞工是否有接受教育訓練，可以看舉辦教育訓練的紀錄與綜合資料來佐證它是否有再重複違反，如果複查後發現沒有改善就會處罰了，所以我們是……"],["林委員淑芬：我告訴你，沒有啦！我們問過，真的不是這樣子！今天這個爆炸現場，最荒謬的是有沒有移工母國語言告示的工作應注意事項，有嗎？這個有嗎？這個也是基本條件啊！"],["許部長銘春：是，這個我們要再進一步了解。"],["林委員淑芬：可能連這個都沒有，而且是你們認定已改善不予裁罰，除了書面審查的資料，你說你有去複查，但是就我們所知是沒有的，僅有書面審查而已。因此剛剛我再加一點，工廠的工作現場有沒有落實最基本的外籍移工應注意事項要以他的母語告示，有沒有都還是問號。","再來我要講的是監察院的說法，它這個是屢次違規，過去曾經發生了4次，而且4次違規都與這次爆炸事件的疏失有關，所以我才會再一次提醒你。根據監察院110年的報告指出，移工的職災失能千人率是本國勞工的2倍，主要的原因是移工從事的經常是傳產中的3K產業，機器老舊、欠缺安全裝置、或是為了提升產出的速度，關閉安全裝置，或是欠缺職前教育的訓練，讓移工的工作更容易發生受傷的意外，因為缺乏有效的職災通報平台，造成危險機械沒有被勞檢單位查出未汰換而導致職災事故反覆發生的機率很高，這份是監察院的報告喔！職災死亡與職業傷病的千人率沒有顯著的明顯差別，可是在失能千人率卻是很高，為什麼？你知道有多高嗎？105年本國籍勞工是0.25的千人率、外籍移工是0.6，到了109年本國籍勞工千人率是0.21、外籍移工是0.44。部長、署長，你們怎麼看？監察院的糾正報告，不是我耶！"],["許部長銘春：是，所以我們一定要針對這些缺失、指正……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，110年耶！你卻說現在！在110年就告訴你們這個問題很嚴重，但你們對於它講的3K產業，包括機器老舊、欠缺安全裝置、或是為了提升產出速度而關閉安全裝置、或是欠缺職前教育訓練等，110年到現在已經是113年了，部長，不是你現在說要回去檢討改進，從110年就告訴你們了，到現在也都沒有改進啊！"],["許部長銘春：我們其實都有一些精進的……"],["林委員淑芬：你告訴我，111年、112年的千人率有下降嗎？本土勞工2倍的現象有改進嗎？不知道！"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，委員確實是講到了重點，外籍移工從事3K產業是比較多，相對的風險也是非常大，所以在他們進入本國時我們就給予第一線的教育訓練，而且現在發展署有一個iCAP，我們希望安全衛生……"],["林委員淑芬：署長，你講得太好了！你說進來本國時都要接受教育訓練，但這是事實嗎？你們為了強化勞工基本危害辨識能力，職安署針對移工設立教育安全訓練，但是僅限於7項，哪7項？"],["鄒署長子廉：委員，那個應該是指職安卡，我們是針對營造業為優先，沒有錯。這個……"],["林委員淑芬：我先告訴你，你們在108年邀集相關訓練單位代表共同研商，針對外籍移工有間歇性操作需求的堆高機、起重機、吊掛作業人員，研議即席翻譯的具體作法，又在112年增加了高空工作車操作人員及氧乙炔熔接裝置等等，但是我告訴你，這裡面有幾個大問題，譬如失能中高空摔落很嚴重的營造業，或是製造業因為製程繁複涉及到化學反應的部分，也都應該要列入，可是狀況有幾個，第一個，你們開班授課對產業移工的涵蓋率預期要多高？產業移工幾十萬，你們覺得這個開班授課率能夠涵蓋多廣的範圍？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，其實每個工廠的樣態是不太一樣的，應該是工廠要給移工比較好的教育訓練，而我們是在他們進入本國時給予一個基礎的教育訓練，包括觀念、想法以及職災補償的機制，讓移工能夠有所了解，回到職場之後，本來就應該是雇主要讓勞工接受教育訓練才可以上工。"],["林委員淑芬：但事實上事業單位的雇主有沒有職安意識、要不要讓移工去你們那裡接受訓練，或是他自己要不要接受訓練，這是問號啦！第二個，工廠要自行實施的安衛訓練有用移工的母語進行嗎？或是現場的告示牌全部都有用移工的母語告示嗎？這也是一個問號啊！你講了、你也看到了，職災失能率相對高的產業，你認為要加強一點訓練，但是政府最終能加強的訓練數量涵蓋率太少了、太低了，還是要靠事業單位，可是事業單位願不願意做、有沒有做，問號！這個該怎麼辦？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，雖然是移工或特殊弱勢族群的教育訓練，在現場它就是弱點，所以需要更好的教育訓練，而我們教育訓練的規則就是雇主有沒有落實這個程度，我們如何做法制的一些修正……"],["林委員淑芬：署長，你講得太好，但我再告訴你一個事實，剛才你說雇主有沒有做很重要，現在我就告訴你雇主有沒有做。桃園市政府勞工局執行移工安衛訪視，它去查核了344家，結果發現高達273家事業單位，不要說是教育訓練、安衛訓練，光是提供外語版本的教育訓練教材就有八成的違規比例，沒有落實母語教育訓練，聽不聽得懂也不知道，在這種狀況下，我們都知道移工的語言隔閡很大，溝通上的限制就會造成安衛上對自身危害辨識能力的障礙，所以你要如何督導事業單位，這個很重要啊！","我們也知道沒事發生就沒事，一旦有事發生，我們的就服法第五十四條規定得以廢止聘僱，但是監察院的調查報告指出，過往的政府對重大職災中違反職安法義務的雇主，從以前到現在只有一個雇主依就服法被刪除聘僱額度，發生了這麼多的職災傷害、造成這麼多失能的案例，只有一個被刪除聘僱額度，難怪啊！政府不敢啟動就服法第五十四條，不敢從嚴啊！難怪雇主始終將移工當成用完即丟的商品，反正失能了就回去吃自己，保險賠一賠，再給一點錢了事。","我們都以為外籍移工是源源不絕的，事實上並不是啊！部長，你們最清楚知道，外籍移工現在不是源源不絕，勞動部要落實就服法的規範之外，剛剛我提到還需要有什麼機制課以雇主更嚴格的責任，那些本來就是他們的責任，安衛、教育、訓練，對不對？在職災預防法裡面規定的本來就是雇主的責任啊！發生問題之後，確認是雇主沒有盡到責任，你還不敢取消他的聘雇許可，這樣就不對了。部長，對嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我們現在針對重大職災直接就……"],["林委員淑芬：現在重大職災的定義已經改了，重大職災是什麼？重大職災光是通報的定義都改了啊！只要是住院的就要通報了。我現在要講的是，如果造成死亡、失能，得以廢止他繼續聘雇的法律工具就在那裡，蘿蔔與棒子，你沒有給蘿蔔、棒子也不敢用，整個體系就變成法律失能啊！"],["許部長銘春：委員，我們一定會落實執行這個部分。"],["林委員淑芬：我再建議勞動部，你要研擬在職安法的法遵情形，要求他們實施教育訓練或是工作環境危險標示是不是有使用移工母語的訓練或現場的工作標示，要納入招募許可應備文件及審查項目。到底有沒有移工母語的安全標示，教育訓練有沒有提供這個部分，都有提供而且有訓練，這樣才有資格去聘僱。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["林委員淑芬：其實我還有一個臺美21世紀貿易倡議的議題，但是主席已經站起來了，所以我就下次再說好了。","我們從佳豐鋁業的事件來看，其實這種3K產業的每一個外籍或本籍勞工都是很珍貴的，每一個家庭都是靠這個勞工在支撐，如果他失能或死亡了，原本的一家支柱變成家裡的負擔，本來是要支撐這個家庭卻變成家庭要支撐他，所以大家都知道不能貧病，一旦貧病之後就往下沉淪，家庭的處境就會更不堪。因此，不是發生事情後要如何賠償、補償而已，更應該要做的是職業安全衛生中所講的職災預防，預防是最重要的，而我們的法律工具擱著不用，我覺得對勞工而言是最不應該的，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員，接下來請林德福委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["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{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 909.42, \"end\": 909.58, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 909.58, \"end\": 910.4, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 910.4, \"end\": 910.701, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 910.701, \"end\": 910.861, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 910.861, \"end\": 911.581, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 911.581, \"end\": 912.942, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 912.942, \"end\": 914.823, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 914.823, \"end\": 915.124, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 915.124, \"end\": 915.344, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 915.344, \"end\": 915.624, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 915.624, \"end\": 915.844, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 915.844, \"end\": 916.404, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 916.404, \"end\": 916.545, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 916.545, \"end\": 916.865, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 916.865, \"end\": 916.885, \"score\": 0.028}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,968 --> 00:00:08,613\n謝謝主席是不是我們還是請這個許部長請許部長\n\n2\n00:00:14,246 --> 00:00:39,733\n林委員好部長午安這個我們還需要來關心一下這個加豐旅業加豐旅業它爆炸導致了26傷其實是很重大的這個公安危機死者都是移工那這個重傷的三位本國籍、三位外國籍其實這完全暴露3K產業的工作環境還有它的職業安全急迫性的提升和改善\n\n3\n00:00:40,493 --> 00:01:01,352\n我們今天在這裡當然要討論它以外也要再討論如何輔導業者除了要遵循法尊以外其實更要重視職業安全和衛生我們的救福法第54條講到如果僱主因為重大的職災造成移工死亡或失能得以廢止聘僱許可等\n\n4\n00:01:04,093 --> 00:01:12,880\n但是這個都是事後啦當然防範於這個事前更重要所以我們在想說你有沒有辦法將重大職災這個預防的這個措施執行狀況列為申請聘僱移工的標準\n\n5\n00:01:21,086 --> 00:01:21,407\n加封旅業從2021年起執行14次安慰勞動檢查\n\n6\n00:01:43,478 --> 00:01:48,223\n一共發現5項違規違規是沒有依規定針對新進勞工或特殊作業勞工實施安全教育訓練或教育訓練不足以及為依規定實施機械設備及車輛機械自動檢查\n\n7\n00:02:10,323 --> 00:02:29,177\n當時這五項的違規後來沒有開罰沒有開罰的原因是說它在期限內的確改善了所以沒有開罰但是我們都知道現期改善其實是你說你要對新進勞工要做安全教育然後要實施這個機械設備和車輛機械自動檢查都是書面資料書面資料連簡附照片都不用\n\n8\n00:02:36,161 --> 00:02:55,523\n所以沒有開罰但是不是真的做了我們不知道老師說了因為這個規定其實你沒有要求這個書面資料也沒有要求要檢附影像資料當然他就書面資料來你當然就認為認定是改善了啦但我們從事後來看他今天是水深入鋁湯當中\n\n9\n00:02:57,165 --> 00:03:13,234\n所以對於機械設備的操作還有教育訓練的確就是關鍵可是教育訓練跟機械設備操作它也發生過違規你們也認為它改善了那我們的要求標準其實很低的書面有沒有再檢討的空間可以\n\n10\n00:03:15,592 --> 00:03:44,460\n法委員我想因為其實我們他他書面過來之後其實應該你們也會去複查也會去現場複查阿這個有去複查過嗎?有有嗎?怎麼複查法?有沒有教育訓練怎麼複查法?跟委員報告齁我們檢查寫了切結書了現在看著缺失比如說教育訓練這個勞工有沒有教育訓練有沒有教育訓練看回來看有沒有再辦這個教育訓練看教育訓練的紀錄跟相關資料來佐證他有沒有再重複違反如果沒有複查沒有改善就會處罰了\n\n11\n00:03:45,740 --> 00:04:03,228\n我告訴你沒有啦我們問過真的不是那樣子連現場今天連這個爆炸現場最荒謬的是這個包括有沒有移工母國語言告示的工作應注意事項有嗎連這個都有嗎\n\n12\n00:04:09,038 --> 00:04:24,449\n這個也是基本條件啊可能連這個都沒有而且是你們認定有改善不予裁罰書面審查的資料你說你有去複查就我們所知是沒有的就書面審查而已所以我剛剛再加一點說\n\n13\n00:04:26,857 --> 00:04:42,215\n工廠的工作現場有沒有落實最基本的你的外勞的移工的母語他的應該告示他應注意事項要以他的母語來告示有沒有都還是問號那我現在要來講監察院怎麼講他這個是屢次違規過去曾經4次\n\n14\n00:04:46,460 --> 00:05:04,934\n而四次的違規都跟這次爆炸事件的疏失有關所以我再一次提醒你但我要講監察院的110年的報告指出移工的職災失能簽人率是本國勞工的兩倍\n\n15\n00:05:06,875 --> 00:05:31,189\n那主要的原因是因為移工從事的經常是傳產的工作裡面3K的機器老舊、欠缺安全裝置或者是為了提升產出的速度關閉安全裝置或者是欠缺值錢教育的訓練讓移工的工作更容易發生受傷的意外\n\n16\n00:05:31,929 --> 00:05:48,620\n因為缺乏有效的職災的通報平台造成危險機械沒有被勞檢單位查出沒有台灣導致職災事故的發生反覆的這個機率很高\n\n17\n00:05:50,243 --> 00:06:03,976\n這一份是這個監察院的報告那職災死亡跟職業傷病的這個簽人率他沒有顯著的這個這個明顯可是在失能簽人率很高為什麼你知道有多高嗎\n\n18\n00:06:10,477 --> 00:06:24,849\n105年本國籍勞工0.25的簽人率外籍移工是0.6到109年0.21的本國籍的簽人率在外籍移工身上還是0.44不對、錯、你怎麼看\n\n19\n00:06:30,764 --> 00:06:55,272\n監察院的糾正報告不是我捏所以我們一定要在針對這些缺失指證可是不定110年捏你說現在110年就告訴你們這個問題很嚴重所以你們對於說他講的3K產業機器老舊欠缺安全裝置或是為了提升產出速度關閉安全裝置或者是欠缺職前教育訓練等\n\n20\n00:06:57,392 --> 00:07:11,582\n110年到現在113年了保證不是說你要回去檢討要改進110年告訴你們到現在也都沒有改進啊我們其實都有一些精進的那你告訴我111年、112年簽人率有下降嗎有本土勞工的兩倍的現象有改進嗎\n\n21\n00:07:20,393 --> 00:07:38,699\n報導委員其實確實有點要重點這些3K產業外集中城市比較多它相對這個風險是非常大的所以我們現在就是在進場進來進入本國的時候我們做第一線的教育訓練然後現在iLab發展所有一個iLab那個iLab就我們希望說安全衛生\n\n22\n00:07:39,079 --> 00:07:53,713\n署長你講得太好了你講說進來本國的時候就要教育訓練可是這是事實嗎?你們對為了強化勞工基本危害辨識能力你們專屬針對移工設立教育安全訓練但僅限於七項啦七項\n\n23\n00:07:56,195 --> 00:08:13,626\n那個應該是講指南卡我們是針對營造業為優先的沒有錯然後這個我先告訴你你們在這個108年邀請了有關訓練單位代表共同研商針對外籍義工有間歇性操作需求的堆高機起重機吊掛作業人員要研議即期翻譯的具體做法\n\n24\n00:08:17,768 --> 00:08:42,214\n但是你們112年增加了高空工作車操作人員還有洋溢缺溶接裝置等等但是我告訴你這裡面有幾個大問題比如說這個施能裡面這個高空衰落很嚴重的營造業或者是製造業因為製程繁複涉及到化學反應的部分也應該要列入但是你們這個\n\n25\n00:08:43,914 --> 00:08:49,956\n要列入可是狀況有幾個第一個你們開班授課對產業義工的涵蓋率預期要多高產業義工幾十萬那你們覺得這個開班授課率能夠涵蓋多廣的範圍\n\n26\n00:08:58,649 --> 00:09:21,046\n包委員其實教育訓練的本質是每個工廠的那個樣態是不太一樣的所以我們教育訓練應該是僱主依照工廠樣態給高工比較好的教育訓練那我們進本國的時候是給一般基礎的教育訓練的觀念想法還有旨在補償的一些機制讓勞工知道那回到職場裡面本來就是要讓勞工僱主讓勞工先做教育訓練才可以上工啦\n\n27\n00:09:21,226 --> 00:09:25,388\n二、工廠要自行實施的安慰訓練有用移工的母語進行嗎?\n\n28\n00:09:38,476 --> 00:09:51,381\n或現場的告示牌全部都有用這個移工的母語告示了嗎這也是一個問號啊所以在這種你講了你也看到了說這個植栽師能力相對高的這個產業然後你要認為要加強一點訓練可是最終政府能夠加強的訓練的數量涵蓋率太少了太低了還是要靠事業單位可是事業單位願不願意做有沒有做問號這要怎麼做\n\n29\n00:10:07,266 --> 00:10:27,205\n跟委員回報,雖然是移工或特殊弱勢族群的教育訓練現場就是它是弱點,所以要更好的教育訓練所以我也想說,我們教育訓練的規則就是僱主的有沒有落實這個程度我們如果做法制的一些修繕...好,署長你講得太好,但我再告訴你一個事實你講說那僱主有沒有做很重要,那我再告訴你僱主有沒有做\n\n30\n00:10:27,825 --> 00:10:35,347\n桃園市政府勞工局執行移工安慰訪視他去查核344家結果發現高達273家的事業單位不要講說教育訓練、安慰訓練啦光是提供外語版本的教育訓練的教材違規比例是八成沒有落實母語教育訓練然後聽我聽不懂也不知道啦然後呢\n\n31\n00:10:54,071 --> 00:11:10,607\n在這種狀況裡面這種方式這個我們都知道移工的語言上的隔閡很大嘛溝通上的限制就會造成這個安慰的對自身危害的辨識能力的障礙所以你如何督導事業單位去這個很重要啊\n\n32\n00:11:11,047 --> 00:11:39,342\n那我們也知道說沒問題發生就沒問題發生我們救福法第54條得以廢止聘僱但是監察院的調查報告指出啊過往的政府對重大職災中違反職安法義務的僱主從以前到現在只有救福法只有一個被一個僱主這麼多的這個職災傷害了失能的案例造成失能等等\n\n33\n00:11:40,242 --> 00:11:57,117\n只有一個被刪除聘僱額度所以也難怪啊這個政府不敢啟動救福法第54條啦不敢重演啦所以難怪僱主始終將移工當成這個用完急丟的商品反正失能了回去吃自己保險賠一賠然後再給一點錢了事\n\n34\n00:12:02,262 --> 00:12:08,506\n我們都以為外籍移工是源源不絕的事實上是不是啊部長你們最清楚知道外籍移工現在不是源源不絕那勞動部你們要落實救福法的規範以外我剛剛講說我們要有一些什麼機制來刻意僱主應該要更嚴格的這個責任\n\n35\n00:12:26,136 --> 00:12:47,811\n那本來就是責任安慰、教育、訓練對不對就是職災預防法裡面規定的本來就是僱主責任啦欸發生問題了確認僱主沒有盡到責任了你還不敢取消他的這個聘僱許可這樣就不對啦不對對不對我們現在其實針對重大職災的我們都會\n\n36\n00:12:55,199 --> 00:12:58,501\n中大職災現在定義已經改了,中大職災是什麼?中大職災要通報的,光是通報的定義都改了啊\n\n37\n00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:27,355\n只要是住院的就要通報了現在我要講的意思是說你如果造成死亡失能你現在連廢紙他得以繼續聘僱的這個法律工具在那裡蘿蔔跟棒子你蘿蔔沒有給棒子不敢用這整個體系就變成法律失能啊\n\n38\n00:13:27,975 --> 00:13:39,186\n委員我們這個部份一定會落實來執行我現在在建議勞動部你要沿你在這個執安法的法尊請醒要叫他們要實施教育訓練或是工作環境危險標示你這個是不是有使用移工母語語言的招募訓練或是現場的工作標示要納入招募許可應備文件和審查項目\n\n39\n00:13:53,906 --> 00:14:04,765\n你到底有沒有移工母語的安全標示那你的教育訓練有沒有提供這個部分都有提供而且有訓練那才有資格去聘僱\n\n40\n00:14:06,431 --> 00:14:24,310\n其實我是還有一個是臺美21世紀貿易倡議但是主席站起來了所以我就下次再說好了那我們現在在這裡就是說真的是要從這個加封旅業來看其實因為這種3K產業\n\n41\n00:14:26,687 --> 00:14:52,788\n每一個勞工不管是外籍或是本籍每一個勞動力都是很珍貴的每一個家庭都是靠這個勞工在支撐如果他失能或死亡了他的一家資助變成家裡的負擔變成家人一輩子本來是要來支撐這個家庭變成家庭還要來支撐他所以大家都知道說不能平病啊但一平病以後他們往下沉淪家庭的處境是更不堪\n\n42\n00:14:53,789 --> 00:15:16,885\n所以不是發生事情了怎麼樣來賠償他、補償他而已更應該要做的是職業安全衛生裡面講的職災預防預防是最重要的而我們法律工具擱著不用那個就是對勞工來講其實我覺得是最不應該的啦好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5968\t8613\t謝謝主席 是不是我們還是請這個許部長請許部長\n14246\t39733\t林委員好部長午安這個我們還需要來關心一下這個加豐旅業加豐旅業它爆炸導致了26傷其實是很重大的這個公安危機死者都是移工那這個重傷的三位本國籍、三位外國籍其實這完全暴露3K產業的工作環境還有它的職業安全急迫性的提升和改善\n40493\t61352\t我們今天在這裡當然要討論它以外也要再討論如何輔導業者除了要遵循法尊以外其實更要重視職業安全和衛生我們的救福法第54條講到如果僱主因為重大的職災造成移工死亡或失能得以廢止聘僱許可等\n64093\t72880\t但是這個都是事後啦當然防範於這個事前更重要所以我們在想說你有沒有辦法將重大職災這個預防的這個措施執行狀況列為申請聘僱移工的標準\n81086\t81407\t加封旅業從2021年起執行14次安慰勞動檢查\n103478\t108223\t一共發現5項違規違規是沒有依規定針對新進勞工或特殊作業勞工實施安全教育訓練或教育訓練不足以及為依規定實施機械設備及車輛機械自動檢查\n130323\t149177\t當時這五項的違規後來沒有開罰沒有開罰的原因是說它在期限內的確改善了所以沒有開罰但是我們都知道現期改善其實是你說你要對新進勞工要做安全教育然後要實施這個機械設備和車輛機械自動檢查都是書面資料書面資料連簡附照片都不用\n156161\t175523\t所以沒有開罰但是不是真的做了我們不知道老師說了因為這個規定其實你沒有要求這個書面資料也沒有要求要檢附影像資料當然他就書面資料來你當然就認為認定是改善了啦但我們從事後來看他今天是水深入鋁湯當中\n177165\t193234\t所以對於機械設備的操作還有教育訓練的確就是關鍵可是教育訓練跟機械設備操作它也發生過違規你們也認為它改善了那我們的要求標準其實很低的書面有沒有再檢討的空間可以\n195592\t224460\t法委員我想因為其實我們他他書面過來之後其實應該你們也會去複查也會去現場複查阿這個有去複查過嗎?有有嗎?怎麼複查法?有沒有教育訓練怎麼複查法?跟委員報告齁我們檢查寫了切結書了現在看著缺失比如說教育訓練這個勞工有沒有教育訓練有沒有教育訓練看回來看有沒有再辦這個教育訓練看教育訓練的紀錄跟相關資料來佐證他有沒有再重複違反如果沒有複查沒有改善就會處罰了\n225740\t243228\t我告訴你沒有啦我們問過真的不是那樣子連現場今天連這個爆炸現場最荒謬的是這個包括有沒有移工母國語言告示的工作應注意事項有嗎連這個都有嗎\n249038\t264449\t這個也是基本條件啊可能連這個都沒有而且是你們認定有改善不予裁罰書面審查的資料你說你有去複查就我們所知是沒有的就書面審查而已所以我剛剛再加一點說\n266857\t282215\t工廠的工作現場有沒有落實最基本的你的外勞的移工的母語他的應該告示他應注意事項要以他的母語來告示有沒有都還是問號那我現在要來講監察院怎麼講他這個是屢次違規過去曾經4次\n286460\t304934\t而四次的違規都跟這次爆炸事件的疏失有關所以我再一次提醒你但我要講監察院的110年的報告指出移工的職災失能簽人率是本國勞工的兩倍\n306875\t331189\t那主要的原因是因為移工從事的經常是傳產的工作裡面3K的機器老舊、欠缺安全裝置或者是為了提升產出的速度關閉安全裝置或者是欠缺值錢教育的訓練讓移工的工作更容易發生受傷的意外\n331929\t348620\t因為缺乏有效的職災的通報平台造成危險機械沒有被勞檢單位查出沒有台灣導致職災事故的發生反覆的這個機率很高\n350243\t363976\t這一份是這個監察院的報告那職災死亡跟職業傷病的這個簽人率他沒有顯著的這個這個明顯可是在失能簽人率很高為什麼你知道有多高嗎\n370477\t384849\t105年本國籍勞工0.25的簽人率外籍移工是0.6到109年0.21的本國籍的簽人率在外籍移工身上還是0.44不對、錯、你怎麼看\n390764\t415272\t監察院的糾正報告不是我捏所以我們一定要在針對這些缺失指證可是不定110年捏你說現在110年就告訴你們這個問題很嚴重所以你們對於說他講的3K產業機器老舊欠缺安全裝置或是為了提升產出速度關閉安全裝置或者是欠缺職前教育訓練等\n417392\t431582\t110年到現在113年了保證不是說你要回去檢討要改進110年告訴你們到現在也都沒有改進啊我們其實都有一些精進的那你告訴我111年、112年簽人率有下降嗎有本土勞工的兩倍的現象有改進嗎\n440393\t458699\t報導委員其實確實有點要重點這些3K產業外集中城市比較多它相對這個風險是非常大的所以我們現在就是在進場進來進入本國的時候我們做第一線的教育訓練然後現在iLab發展所有一個iLab那個iLab就我們希望說安全衛生\n459079\t473713\t署長你講得太好了你講說進來本國的時候就要教育訓練可是這是事實嗎?你們對為了強化勞工基本危害辨識能力你們專屬針對移工設立教育安全訓練但僅限於七項啦七項\n476195\t493626\t那個應該是講指南卡我們是針對營造業為優先的沒有錯然後這個我先告訴你你們在這個108年邀請了有關訓練單位代表共同研商針對外籍義工有間歇性操作需求的堆高機起重機吊掛作業人員要研議即期翻譯的具體做法\n497768\t522214\t但是你們112年增加了高空工作車操作人員還有洋溢缺溶接裝置等等但是我告訴你這裡面有幾個大問題比如說這個施能裡面這個高空衰落很嚴重的營造業或者是製造業因為製程繁複涉及到化學反應的部分也應該要列入但是你們這個\n523914\t529956\t要列入可是狀況有幾個第一個你們開班授課對產業義工的涵蓋率預期要多高產業義工幾十萬那你們覺得這個開班授課率能夠涵蓋多廣的範圍\n538649\t561046\t包委員其實教育訓練的本質是每個工廠的那個樣態是不太一樣的所以我們教育訓練應該是僱主依照工廠樣態給高工比較好的教育訓練那我們進本國的時候是給一般基礎的教育訓練的觀念想法還有旨在補償的一些機制讓勞工知道那回到職場裡面本來就是要讓勞工僱主讓勞工先做教育訓練才可以上工啦\n561226\t565388\t二、工廠要自行實施的安慰訓練有用移工的母語進行嗎?\n578476\t591381\t或現場的告示牌全部都有用這個移工的母語告示了嗎這也是一個問號啊所以在這種你講了你也看到了說這個植栽師能力相對高的這個產業然後你要認為要加強一點訓練可是最終政府能夠加強的訓練的數量涵蓋率太少了太低了還是要靠事業單位可是事業單位願不願意做有沒有做問號這要怎麼做\n607266\t627205\t跟委員回報,雖然是移工或特殊弱勢族群的教育訓練現場就是它是弱點,所以要更好的教育訓練所以我也想說,我們教育訓練的規則就是僱主的有沒有落實這個程度我們如果做法制的一些修繕...好,署長你講得太好,但我再告訴你一個事實你講說那僱主有沒有做很重要,那我再告訴你僱主有沒有做\n627825\t635347\t桃園市政府勞工局執行移工安慰訪視他去查核344家結果發現高達273家的事業單位不要講說教育訓練、安慰訓練啦光是提供外語版本的教育訓練的教材違規比例是八成沒有落實母語教育訓練然後聽我聽不懂也不知道啦然後呢\n654071\t670607\t在這種狀況裡面這種方式這個我們都知道移工的語言上的隔閡很大嘛溝通上的限制就會造成這個安慰的對自身危害的辨識能力的障礙所以你如何督導事業單位去這個很重要啊\n671047\t699342\t那我們也知道說沒問題發生就沒問題發生我們救福法第54條得以廢止聘僱但是監察院的調查報告指出啊過往的政府對重大職災中違反職安法義務的僱主從以前到現在只有救福法只有一個被一個僱主這麼多的這個職災傷害了失能的案例造成失能等等\n700242\t717117\t只有一個被刪除聘僱額度所以也難怪啊這個政府不敢啟動救福法第54條啦不敢重演啦所以難怪僱主始終將移工當成這個用完急丟的商品反正失能了回去吃自己保險賠一賠然後再給一點錢了事\n722262\t728506\t我們都以為外籍移工是源源不絕的事實上是不是啊部長你們最清楚知道外籍移工現在不是源源不絕那勞動部你們要落實救福法的規範以外我剛剛講說我們要有一些什麼機制來刻意僱主應該要更嚴格的這個責任\n746136\t767811\t那本來就是責任安慰、教育、訓練 對不對就是職災預防法裡面規定的本來就是僱主責任啦欸 發生問題了 確認僱主沒有盡到責任了你還不敢取消他的這個聘僱許可這樣就不對啦 不對對不對我們現在其實針對重大職災的我們都會\n775199\t778501\t中大職災現在定義已經改了,中大職災是什麼?中大職災要通報的,光是通報的定義都改了啊\n785880\t807355\t只要是住院的就要通報了現在我要講的意思是說你如果造成死亡失能你現在連廢紙他得以繼續聘僱的這個法律工具在那裡蘿蔔跟棒子你蘿蔔沒有給棒子不敢用這整個體系就變成法律失能啊\n807975\t819186\t委員我們這個部份一定會落實來執行我現在在建議勞動部你要沿你在這個執安法的法尊請醒要叫他們要實施教育訓練或是工作環境危險標示你這個是不是有使用移工母語語言的招募訓練或是現場的工作標示要納入招募許可應備文件和審查項目\n833906\t844765\t你到底有沒有移工母語的安全標示那你的教育訓練有沒有提供這個部分都有提供而且有訓練那才有資格去聘僱\n846431\t864310\t其實我是還有一個是臺美21世紀貿易倡議但是主席站起來了所以我就下次再說好了那我們現在在這裡就是說真的是要從這個加封旅業來看其實因為這種3K產業\n866687\t892788\t每一個勞工不管是外籍或是本籍每一個勞動力都是很珍貴的每一個家庭都是靠這個勞工在支撐如果他失能或死亡了他的一家資助變成家裡的負擔變成家人一輩子本來是要來支撐這個家庭變成家庭還要來支撐他所以大家都知道說不能平病啊但一平病以後他們往下沉淪家庭的處境是更不堪\n893789\t916885\t所以不是發生事情了怎麼樣來賠償他、補償他而已更應該要做的是職業安全衛生裡面講的職災預防預防是最重要的而我們法律工具擱著不用那個就是對勞工來講其實我覺得是最不應該的啦好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 是不是我們還是請這個許部長請許部長\n林委員好部長午安這個我們還需要來關心一下這個加豐旅業加豐旅業它爆炸導致了26傷其實是很重大的這個公安危機死者都是移工那這個重傷的三位本國籍、三位外國籍其實這完全暴露3K產業的工作環境還有它的職業安全急迫性的提升和改善\n我們今天在這裡當然要討論它以外也要再討論如何輔導業者除了要遵循法尊以外其實更要重視職業安全和衛生我們的救福法第54條講到如果僱主因為重大的職災造成移工死亡或失能得以廢止聘僱許可等\n但是這個都是事後啦當然防範於這個事前更重要所以我們在想說你有沒有辦法將重大職災這個預防的這個措施執行狀況列為申請聘僱移工的標準\n加封旅業從2021年起執行14次安慰勞動檢查\n一共發現5項違規違規是沒有依規定針對新進勞工或特殊作業勞工實施安全教育訓練或教育訓練不足以及為依規定實施機械設備及車輛機械自動檢查\n當時這五項的違規後來沒有開罰沒有開罰的原因是說它在期限內的確改善了所以沒有開罰但是我們都知道現期改善其實是你說你要對新進勞工要做安全教育然後要實施這個機械設備和車輛機械自動檢查都是書面資料書面資料連簡附照片都不用\n所以沒有開罰但是不是真的做了我們不知道老師說了因為這個規定其實你沒有要求這個書面資料也沒有要求要檢附影像資料當然他就書面資料來你當然就認為認定是改善了啦但我們從事後來看他今天是水深入鋁湯當中\n所以對於機械設備的操作還有教育訓練的確就是關鍵可是教育訓練跟機械設備操作它也發生過違規你們也認為它改善了那我們的要求標準其實很低的書面有沒有再檢討的空間可以\n法委員我想因為其實我們他他書面過來之後其實應該你們也會去複查也會去現場複查阿這個有去複查過嗎?有有嗎?怎麼複查法?有沒有教育訓練怎麼複查法?跟委員報告齁我們檢查寫了切結書了現在看著缺失比如說教育訓練這個勞工有沒有教育訓練有沒有教育訓練看回來看有沒有再辦這個教育訓練看教育訓練的紀錄跟相關資料來佐證他有沒有再重複違反如果沒有複查沒有改善就會處罰了\n我告訴你沒有啦我們問過真的不是那樣子連現場今天連這個爆炸現場最荒謬的是這個包括有沒有移工母國語言告示的工作應注意事項有嗎連這個都有嗎\n這個也是基本條件啊可能連這個都沒有而且是你們認定有改善不予裁罰書面審查的資料你說你有去複查就我們所知是沒有的就書面審查而已所以我剛剛再加一點說\n工廠的工作現場有沒有落實最基本的你的外勞的移工的母語他的應該告示他應注意事項要以他的母語來告示有沒有都還是問號那我現在要來講監察院怎麼講他這個是屢次違規過去曾經4次\n而四次的違規都跟這次爆炸事件的疏失有關所以我再一次提醒你但我要講監察院的110年的報告指出移工的職災失能簽人率是本國勞工的兩倍\n那主要的原因是因為移工從事的經常是傳產的工作裡面3K的機器老舊、欠缺安全裝置或者是為了提升產出的速度關閉安全裝置或者是欠缺值錢教育的訓練讓移工的工作更容易發生受傷的意外\n因為缺乏有效的職災的通報平台造成危險機械沒有被勞檢單位查出沒有台灣導致職災事故的發生反覆的這個機率很高\n這一份是這個監察院的報告那職災死亡跟職業傷病的這個簽人率他沒有顯著的這個這個明顯可是在失能簽人率很高為什麼你知道有多高嗎\n105年本國籍勞工0.25的簽人率外籍移工是0.6到109年0.21的本國籍的簽人率在外籍移工身上還是0.44不對、錯、你怎麼看\n監察院的糾正報告不是我捏所以我們一定要在針對這些缺失指證可是不定110年捏你說現在110年就告訴你們這個問題很嚴重所以你們對於說他講的3K產業機器老舊欠缺安全裝置或是為了提升產出速度關閉安全裝置或者是欠缺職前教育訓練等\n110年到現在113年了保證不是說你要回去檢討要改進110年告訴你們到現在也都沒有改進啊我們其實都有一些精進的那你告訴我111年、112年簽人率有下降嗎有本土勞工的兩倍的現象有改進嗎\n報導委員其實確實有點要重點這些3K產業外集中城市比較多它相對這個風險是非常大的所以我們現在就是在進場進來進入本國的時候我們做第一線的教育訓練然後現在iLab發展所有一個iLab那個iLab就我們希望說安全衛生\n署長你講得太好了你講說進來本國的時候就要教育訓練可是這是事實嗎?你們對為了強化勞工基本危害辨識能力你們專屬針對移工設立教育安全訓練但僅限於七項啦七項\n那個應該是講指南卡我們是針對營造業為優先的沒有錯然後這個我先告訴你你們在這個108年邀請了有關訓練單位代表共同研商針對外籍義工有間歇性操作需求的堆高機起重機吊掛作業人員要研議即期翻譯的具體做法\n但是你們112年增加了高空工作車操作人員還有洋溢缺溶接裝置等等但是我告訴你這裡面有幾個大問題比如說這個施能裡面這個高空衰落很嚴重的營造業或者是製造業因為製程繁複涉及到化學反應的部分也應該要列入但是你們這個\n要列入可是狀況有幾個第一個你們開班授課對產業義工的涵蓋率預期要多高產業義工幾十萬那你們覺得這個開班授課率能夠涵蓋多廣的範圍\n包委員其實教育訓練的本質是每個工廠的那個樣態是不太一樣的所以我們教育訓練應該是僱主依照工廠樣態給高工比較好的教育訓練那我們進本國的時候是給一般基礎的教育訓練的觀念想法還有旨在補償的一些機制讓勞工知道那回到職場裡面本來就是要讓勞工僱主讓勞工先做教育訓練才可以上工啦\n二、工廠要自行實施的安慰訓練有用移工的母語進行嗎?\n或現場的告示牌全部都有用這個移工的母語告示了嗎這也是一個問號啊所以在這種你講了你也看到了說這個植栽師能力相對高的這個產業然後你要認為要加強一點訓練可是最終政府能夠加強的訓練的數量涵蓋率太少了太低了還是要靠事業單位可是事業單位願不願意做有沒有做問號這要怎麼做\n跟委員回報,雖然是移工或特殊弱勢族群的教育訓練現場就是它是弱點,所以要更好的教育訓練所以我也想說,我們教育訓練的規則就是僱主的有沒有落實這個程度我們如果做法制的一些修繕...好,署長你講得太好,但我再告訴你一個事實你講說那僱主有沒有做很重要,那我再告訴你僱主有沒有做\n桃園市政府勞工局執行移工安慰訪視他去查核344家結果發現高達273家的事業單位不要講說教育訓練、安慰訓練啦光是提供外語版本的教育訓練的教材違規比例是八成沒有落實母語教育訓練然後聽我聽不懂也不知道啦然後呢\n在這種狀況裡面這種方式這個我們都知道移工的語言上的隔閡很大嘛溝通上的限制就會造成這個安慰的對自身危害的辨識能力的障礙所以你如何督導事業單位去這個很重要啊\n那我們也知道說沒問題發生就沒問題發生我們救福法第54條得以廢止聘僱但是監察院的調查報告指出啊過往的政府對重大職災中違反職安法義務的僱主從以前到現在只有救福法只有一個被一個僱主這麼多的這個職災傷害了失能的案例造成失能等等\n只有一個被刪除聘僱額度所以也難怪啊這個政府不敢啟動救福法第54條啦不敢重演啦所以難怪僱主始終將移工當成這個用完急丟的商品反正失能了回去吃自己保險賠一賠然後再給一點錢了事\n我們都以為外籍移工是源源不絕的事實上是不是啊部長你們最清楚知道外籍移工現在不是源源不絕那勞動部你們要落實救福法的規範以外我剛剛講說我們要有一些什麼機制來刻意僱主應該要更嚴格的這個責任\n那本來就是責任安慰、教育、訓練 對不對就是職災預防法裡面規定的本來就是僱主責任啦欸 發生問題了 確認僱主沒有盡到責任了你還不敢取消他的這個聘僱許可這樣就不對啦 不對對不對我們現在其實針對重大職災的我們都會\n中大職災現在定義已經改了,中大職災是什麼?中大職災要通報的,光是通報的定義都改了啊\n只要是住院的就要通報了現在我要講的意思是說你如果造成死亡失能你現在連廢紙他得以繼續聘僱的這個法律工具在那裡蘿蔔跟棒子你蘿蔔沒有給棒子不敢用這整個體系就變成法律失能啊\n委員我們這個部份一定會落實來執行我現在在建議勞動部你要沿你在這個執安法的法尊請醒要叫他們要實施教育訓練或是工作環境危險標示你這個是不是有使用移工母語語言的招募訓練或是現場的工作標示要納入招募許可應備文件和審查項目\n你到底有沒有移工母語的安全標示那你的教育訓練有沒有提供這個部分都有提供而且有訓練那才有資格去聘僱\n其實我是還有一個是臺美21世紀貿易倡議但是主席站起來了所以我就下次再說好了那我們現在在這裡就是說真的是要從這個加封旅業來看其實因為這種3K產業\n每一個勞工不管是外籍或是本籍每一個勞動力都是很珍貴的每一個家庭都是靠這個勞工在支撐如果他失能或死亡了他的一家資助變成家裡的負擔變成家人一輩子本來是要來支撐這個家庭變成家庭還要來支撐他所以大家都知道說不能平病啊但一平病以後他們往下沉淪家庭的處境是更不堪\n所以不是發生事情了怎麼樣來賠償他、補償他而已更應該要做的是職業安全衛生裡面講的職災預防預防是最重要的而我們法律工具擱著不用那個就是對勞工來講其實我覺得是最不應該的啦好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.968 --> 00:08.613\n謝謝主席是不是我們還是請這個許部長請許部長\n\n00:14.246 --> 00:39.733\n林委員好部長午安這個我們還需要來關心一下這個加豐旅業加豐旅業它爆炸導致了26傷其實是很重大的這個公安危機死者都是移工那這個重傷的三位本國籍、三位外國籍其實這完全暴露3K產業的工作環境還有它的職業安全急迫性的提升和改善\n\n00:40.493 --> 01:01.352\n我們今天在這裡當然要討論它以外也要再討論如何輔導業者除了要遵循法尊以外其實更要重視職業安全和衛生我們的救福法第54條講到如果僱主因為重大的職災造成移工死亡或失能得以廢止聘僱許可等\n\n01:04.093 --> 01:12.880\n但是這個都是事後啦當然防範於這個事前更重要所以我們在想說你有沒有辦法將重大職災這個預防的這個措施執行狀況列為申請聘僱移工的標準\n\n01:21.086 --> 01:21.407\n加封旅業從2021年起執行14次安慰勞動檢查\n\n01:43.478 --> 01:48.223\n一共發現5項違規違規是沒有依規定針對新進勞工或特殊作業勞工實施安全教育訓練或教育訓練不足以及為依規定實施機械設備及車輛機械自動檢查\n\n02:10.323 --> 02:29.177\n當時這五項的違規後來沒有開罰沒有開罰的原因是說它在期限內的確改善了所以沒有開罰但是我們都知道現期改善其實是你說你要對新進勞工要做安全教育然後要實施這個機械設備和車輛機械自動檢查都是書面資料書面資料連簡附照片都不用\n\n02:36.161 --> 02:55.523\n所以沒有開罰但是不是真的做了我們不知道老師說了因為這個規定其實你沒有要求這個書面資料也沒有要求要檢附影像資料當然他就書面資料來你當然就認為認定是改善了啦但我們從事後來看他今天是水深入鋁湯當中\n\n02:57.165 --> 03:13.234\n所以對於機械設備的操作還有教育訓練的確就是關鍵可是教育訓練跟機械設備操作它也發生過違規你們也認為它改善了那我們的要求標準其實很低的書面有沒有再檢討的空間可以\n\n03:15.592 --> 03:44.460\n法委員我想因為其實我們他他書面過來之後其實應該你們也會去複查也會去現場複查阿這個有去複查過嗎?有有嗎?怎麼複查法?有沒有教育訓練怎麼複查法?跟委員報告齁我們檢查寫了切結書了現在看著缺失比如說教育訓練這個勞工有沒有教育訓練有沒有教育訓練看回來看有沒有再辦這個教育訓練看教育訓練的紀錄跟相關資料來佐證他有沒有再重複違反如果沒有複查沒有改善就會處罰了\n\n03:45.740 --> 04:03.228\n我告訴你沒有啦我們問過真的不是那樣子連現場今天連這個爆炸現場最荒謬的是這個包括有沒有移工母國語言告示的工作應注意事項有嗎連這個都有嗎\n\n04:09.038 --> 04:24.449\n這個也是基本條件啊可能連這個都沒有而且是你們認定有改善不予裁罰書面審查的資料你說你有去複查就我們所知是沒有的就書面審查而已所以我剛剛再加一點說\n\n04:26.857 --> 04:42.215\n工廠的工作現場有沒有落實最基本的你的外勞的移工的母語他的應該告示他應注意事項要以他的母語來告示有沒有都還是問號那我現在要來講監察院怎麼講他這個是屢次違規過去曾經4次\n\n04:46.460 --> 05:04.934\n而四次的違規都跟這次爆炸事件的疏失有關所以我再一次提醒你但我要講監察院的110年的報告指出移工的職災失能簽人率是本國勞工的兩倍\n\n05:06.875 --> 05:31.189\n那主要的原因是因為移工從事的經常是傳產的工作裡面3K的機器老舊、欠缺安全裝置或者是為了提升產出的速度關閉安全裝置或者是欠缺值錢教育的訓練讓移工的工作更容易發生受傷的意外\n\n05:31.929 --> 05:48.620\n因為缺乏有效的職災的通報平台造成危險機械沒有被勞檢單位查出沒有台灣導致職災事故的發生反覆的這個機率很高\n\n05:50.243 --> 06:03.976\n這一份是這個監察院的報告那職災死亡跟職業傷病的這個簽人率他沒有顯著的這個這個明顯可是在失能簽人率很高為什麼你知道有多高嗎\n\n06:10.477 --> 06:24.849\n105年本國籍勞工0.25的簽人率外籍移工是0.6到109年0.21的本國籍的簽人率在外籍移工身上還是0.44不對、錯、你怎麼看\n\n06:30.764 --> 06:55.272\n監察院的糾正報告不是我捏所以我們一定要在針對這些缺失指證可是不定110年捏你說現在110年就告訴你們這個問題很嚴重所以你們對於說他講的3K產業機器老舊欠缺安全裝置或是為了提升產出速度關閉安全裝置或者是欠缺職前教育訓練等\n\n06:57.392 --> 07:11.582\n110年到現在113年了保證不是說你要回去檢討要改進110年告訴你們到現在也都沒有改進啊我們其實都有一些精進的那你告訴我111年、112年簽人率有下降嗎有本土勞工的兩倍的現象有改進嗎\n\n07:20.393 --> 07:38.699\n報導委員其實確實有點要重點這些3K產業外集中城市比較多它相對這個風險是非常大的所以我們現在就是在進場進來進入本國的時候我們做第一線的教育訓練然後現在iLab發展所有一個iLab那個iLab就我們希望說安全衛生\n\n07:39.079 --> 07:53.713\n署長你講得太好了你講說進來本國的時候就要教育訓練可是這是事實嗎?你們對為了強化勞工基本危害辨識能力你們專屬針對移工設立教育安全訓練但僅限於七項啦七項\n\n07:56.195 --> 08:13.626\n那個應該是講指南卡我們是針對營造業為優先的沒有錯然後這個我先告訴你你們在這個108年邀請了有關訓練單位代表共同研商針對外籍義工有間歇性操作需求的堆高機起重機吊掛作業人員要研議即期翻譯的具體做法\n\n08:17.768 --> 08:42.214\n但是你們112年增加了高空工作車操作人員還有洋溢缺溶接裝置等等但是我告訴你這裡面有幾個大問題比如說這個施能裡面這個高空衰落很嚴重的營造業或者是製造業因為製程繁複涉及到化學反應的部分也應該要列入但是你們這個\n\n08:43.914 --> 08:49.956\n要列入可是狀況有幾個第一個你們開班授課對產業義工的涵蓋率預期要多高產業義工幾十萬那你們覺得這個開班授課率能夠涵蓋多廣的範圍\n\n08:58.649 --> 09:21.046\n包委員其實教育訓練的本質是每個工廠的那個樣態是不太一樣的所以我們教育訓練應該是僱主依照工廠樣態給高工比較好的教育訓練那我們進本國的時候是給一般基礎的教育訓練的觀念想法還有旨在補償的一些機制讓勞工知道那回到職場裡面本來就是要讓勞工僱主讓勞工先做教育訓練才可以上工啦\n\n09:21.226 --> 09:25.388\n二、工廠要自行實施的安慰訓練有用移工的母語進行嗎?\n\n09:38.476 --> 09:51.381\n或現場的告示牌全部都有用這個移工的母語告示了嗎這也是一個問號啊所以在這種你講了你也看到了說這個植栽師能力相對高的這個產業然後你要認為要加強一點訓練可是最終政府能夠加強的訓練的數量涵蓋率太少了太低了還是要靠事業單位可是事業單位願不願意做有沒有做問號這要怎麼做\n\n10:07.266 --> 10:27.205\n跟委員回報,雖然是移工或特殊弱勢族群的教育訓練現場就是它是弱點,所以要更好的教育訓練所以我也想說,我們教育訓練的規則就是僱主的有沒有落實這個程度我們如果做法制的一些修繕...好,署長你講得太好,但我再告訴你一個事實你講說那僱主有沒有做很重要,那我再告訴你僱主有沒有做\n\n10:27.825 --> 10:35.347\n桃園市政府勞工局執行移工安慰訪視他去查核344家結果發現高達273家的事業單位不要講說教育訓練、安慰訓練啦光是提供外語版本的教育訓練的教材違規比例是八成沒有落實母語教育訓練然後聽我聽不懂也不知道啦然後呢\n\n10:54.071 --> 11:10.607\n在這種狀況裡面這種方式這個我們都知道移工的語言上的隔閡很大嘛溝通上的限制就會造成這個安慰的對自身危害的辨識能力的障礙所以你如何督導事業單位去這個很重要啊\n\n11:11.047 --> 11:39.342\n那我們也知道說沒問題發生就沒問題發生我們救福法第54條得以廢止聘僱但是監察院的調查報告指出啊過往的政府對重大職災中違反職安法義務的僱主從以前到現在只有救福法只有一個被一個僱主這麼多的這個職災傷害了失能的案例造成失能等等\n\n11:40.242 --> 11:57.117\n只有一個被刪除聘僱額度所以也難怪啊這個政府不敢啟動救福法第54條啦不敢重演啦所以難怪僱主始終將移工當成這個用完急丟的商品反正失能了回去吃自己保險賠一賠然後再給一點錢了事\n\n12:02.262 --> 12:08.506\n我們都以為外籍移工是源源不絕的事實上是不是啊部長你們最清楚知道外籍移工現在不是源源不絕那勞動部你們要落實救福法的規範以外我剛剛講說我們要有一些什麼機制來刻意僱主應該要更嚴格的這個責任\n\n12:26.136 --> 12:47.811\n那本來就是責任安慰、教育、訓練對不對就是職災預防法裡面規定的本來就是僱主責任啦欸發生問題了確認僱主沒有盡到責任了你還不敢取消他的這個聘僱許可這樣就不對啦不對對不對我們現在其實針對重大職災的我們都會\n\n12:55.199 --> 12:58.501\n中大職災現在定義已經改了,中大職災是什麼?中大職災要通報的,光是通報的定義都改了啊\n\n13:05.880 --> 13:27.355\n只要是住院的就要通報了現在我要講的意思是說你如果造成死亡失能你現在連廢紙他得以繼續聘僱的這個法律工具在那裡蘿蔔跟棒子你蘿蔔沒有給棒子不敢用這整個體系就變成法律失能啊\n\n13:27.975 --> 13:39.186\n委員我們這個部份一定會落實來執行我現在在建議勞動部你要沿你在這個執安法的法尊請醒要叫他們要實施教育訓練或是工作環境危險標示你這個是不是有使用移工母語語言的招募訓練或是現場的工作標示要納入招募許可應備文件和審查項目\n\n13:53.906 --> 14:04.765\n你到底有沒有移工母語的安全標示那你的教育訓練有沒有提供這個部分都有提供而且有訓練那才有資格去聘僱\n\n14:06.431 --> 14:24.310\n其實我是還有一個是臺美21世紀貿易倡議但是主席站起來了所以我就下次再說好了那我們現在在這裡就是說真的是要從這個加封旅業來看其實因為這種3K產業\n\n14:26.687 --> 14:52.788\n每一個勞工不管是外籍或是本籍每一個勞動力都是很珍貴的每一個家庭都是靠這個勞工在支撐如果他失能或死亡了他的一家資助變成家裡的負擔變成家人一輩子本來是要來支撐這個家庭變成家庭還要來支撐他所以大家都知道說不能平病啊但一平病以後他們往下沉淪家庭的處境是更不堪\n\n14:53.789 --> 15:16.885\n所以不是發生事情了怎麼樣來賠償他、補償他而已更應該要做的是職業安全衛生裡面講的職災預防預防是最重要的而我們法律工具擱著不用那個就是對勞工來講其實我覺得是最不應該的啦好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.968,"end":8.613,"text":"謝謝主席 是不是我們還是請這個許部長請許部長"},{"start":14.246,"end":39.733,"text":"林委員好部長午安這個我們還需要來關心一下這個加豐旅業加豐旅業它爆炸導致了26傷其實是很重大的這個公安危機死者都是移工那這個重傷的三位本國籍、三位外國籍其實這完全暴露3K產業的工作環境還有它的職業安全急迫性的提升和改善"},{"start":40.493,"end":61.352,"text":"我們今天在這裡當然要討論它以外也要再討論如何輔導業者除了要遵循法尊以外其實更要重視職業安全和衛生我們的救福法第54條講到如果僱主因為重大的職災造成移工死亡或失能得以廢止聘僱許可等"},{"start":64.093,"end":72.88,"text":"但是這個都是事後啦當然防範於這個事前更重要所以我們在想說你有沒有辦法將重大職災這個預防的這個措施執行狀況列為申請聘僱移工的標準"},{"start":81.086,"end":81.407,"text":"加封旅業從2021年起執行14次安慰勞動檢查"},{"start":103.478,"end":108.223,"text":"一共發現5項違規違規是沒有依規定針對新進勞工或特殊作業勞工實施安全教育訓練或教育訓練不足以及為依規定實施機械設備及車輛機械自動檢查"},{"start":130.323,"end":149.177,"text":"當時這五項的違規後來沒有開罰沒有開罰的原因是說它在期限內的確改善了所以沒有開罰但是我們都知道現期改善其實是你說你要對新進勞工要做安全教育然後要實施這個機械設備和車輛機械自動檢查都是書面資料書面資料連簡附照片都不用"},{"start":156.161,"end":175.523,"text":"所以沒有開罰但是不是真的做了我們不知道老師說了因為這個規定其實你沒有要求這個書面資料也沒有要求要檢附影像資料當然他就書面資料來你當然就認為認定是改善了啦但我們從事後來看他今天是水深入鋁湯當中"},{"start":177.165,"end":193.234,"text":"所以對於機械設備的操作還有教育訓練的確就是關鍵可是教育訓練跟機械設備操作它也發生過違規你們也認為它改善了那我們的要求標準其實很低的書面有沒有再檢討的空間可以"},{"start":195.592,"end":224.46,"text":"法委員我想因為其實我們他他書面過來之後其實應該你們也會去複查也會去現場複查阿這個有去複查過嗎?有有嗎?怎麼複查法?有沒有教育訓練怎麼複查法?跟委員報告齁我們檢查寫了切結書了現在看著缺失比如說教育訓練這個勞工有沒有教育訓練有沒有教育訓練看回來看有沒有再辦這個教育訓練看教育訓練的紀錄跟相關資料來佐證他有沒有再重複違反如果沒有複查沒有改善就會處罰了"},{"start":225.74,"end":243.228,"text":"我告訴你沒有啦我們問過真的不是那樣子連現場今天連這個爆炸現場最荒謬的是這個包括有沒有移工母國語言告示的工作應注意事項有嗎連這個都有嗎"},{"start":249.038,"end":264.449,"text":"這個也是基本條件啊可能連這個都沒有而且是你們認定有改善不予裁罰書面審查的資料你說你有去複查就我們所知是沒有的就書面審查而已所以我剛剛再加一點說"},{"start":266.857,"end":282.215,"text":"工廠的工作現場有沒有落實最基本的你的外勞的移工的母語他的應該告示他應注意事項要以他的母語來告示有沒有都還是問號那我現在要來講監察院怎麼講他這個是屢次違規過去曾經4次"},{"start":286.46,"end":304.934,"text":"而四次的違規都跟這次爆炸事件的疏失有關所以我再一次提醒你但我要講監察院的110年的報告指出移工的職災失能簽人率是本國勞工的兩倍"},{"start":306.875,"end":331.189,"text":"那主要的原因是因為移工從事的經常是傳產的工作裡面3K的機器老舊、欠缺安全裝置或者是為了提升產出的速度關閉安全裝置或者是欠缺值錢教育的訓練讓移工的工作更容易發生受傷的意外"},{"start":331.929,"end":348.62,"text":"因為缺乏有效的職災的通報平台造成危險機械沒有被勞檢單位查出沒有台灣導致職災事故的發生反覆的這個機率很高"},{"start":350.243,"end":363.976,"text":"這一份是這個監察院的報告那職災死亡跟職業傷病的這個簽人率他沒有顯著的這個這個明顯可是在失能簽人率很高為什麼你知道有多高嗎"},{"start":370.477,"end":384.849,"text":"105年本國籍勞工0.25的簽人率外籍移工是0.6到109年0.21的本國籍的簽人率在外籍移工身上還是0.44不對、錯、你怎麼看"},{"start":390.764,"end":415.272,"text":"監察院的糾正報告不是我捏所以我們一定要在針對這些缺失指證可是不定110年捏你說現在110年就告訴你們這個問題很嚴重所以你們對於說他講的3K產業機器老舊欠缺安全裝置或是為了提升產出速度關閉安全裝置或者是欠缺職前教育訓練等"},{"start":417.392,"end":431.582,"text":"110年到現在113年了保證不是說你要回去檢討要改進110年告訴你們到現在也都沒有改進啊我們其實都有一些精進的那你告訴我111年、112年簽人率有下降嗎有本土勞工的兩倍的現象有改進嗎"},{"start":440.393,"end":458.699,"text":"報導委員其實確實有點要重點這些3K產業外集中城市比較多它相對這個風險是非常大的所以我們現在就是在進場進來進入本國的時候我們做第一線的教育訓練然後現在iLab發展所有一個iLab那個iLab就我們希望說安全衛生"},{"start":459.079,"end":473.713,"text":"署長你講得太好了你講說進來本國的時候就要教育訓練可是這是事實嗎?你們對為了強化勞工基本危害辨識能力你們專屬針對移工設立教育安全訓練但僅限於七項啦七項"},{"start":476.195,"end":493.626,"text":"那個應該是講指南卡我們是針對營造業為優先的沒有錯然後這個我先告訴你你們在這個108年邀請了有關訓練單位代表共同研商針對外籍義工有間歇性操作需求的堆高機起重機吊掛作業人員要研議即期翻譯的具體做法"},{"start":497.768,"end":522.214,"text":"但是你們112年增加了高空工作車操作人員還有洋溢缺溶接裝置等等但是我告訴你這裡面有幾個大問題比如說這個施能裡面這個高空衰落很嚴重的營造業或者是製造業因為製程繁複涉及到化學反應的部分也應該要列入但是你們這個"},{"start":523.914,"end":529.956,"text":"要列入可是狀況有幾個第一個你們開班授課對產業義工的涵蓋率預期要多高產業義工幾十萬那你們覺得這個開班授課率能夠涵蓋多廣的範圍"},{"start":538.649,"end":561.046,"text":"包委員其實教育訓練的本質是每個工廠的那個樣態是不太一樣的所以我們教育訓練應該是僱主依照工廠樣態給高工比較好的教育訓練那我們進本國的時候是給一般基礎的教育訓練的觀念想法還有旨在補償的一些機制讓勞工知道那回到職場裡面本來就是要讓勞工僱主讓勞工先做教育訓練才可以上工啦"},{"start":561.226,"end":565.388,"text":"二、工廠要自行實施的安慰訓練有用移工的母語進行嗎?"},{"start":578.476,"end":591.381,"text":"或現場的告示牌全部都有用這個移工的母語告示了嗎這也是一個問號啊所以在這種你講了你也看到了說這個植栽師能力相對高的這個產業然後你要認為要加強一點訓練可是最終政府能夠加強的訓練的數量涵蓋率太少了太低了還是要靠事業單位可是事業單位願不願意做有沒有做問號這要怎麼做"},{"start":607.266,"end":627.205,"text":"跟委員回報,雖然是移工或特殊弱勢族群的教育訓練現場就是它是弱點,所以要更好的教育訓練所以我也想說,我們教育訓練的規則就是僱主的有沒有落實這個程度我們如果做法制的一些修繕...好,署長你講得太好,但我再告訴你一個事實你講說那僱主有沒有做很重要,那我再告訴你僱主有沒有做"},{"start":627.825,"end":635.347,"text":"桃園市政府勞工局執行移工安慰訪視他去查核344家結果發現高達273家的事業單位不要講說教育訓練、安慰訓練啦光是提供外語版本的教育訓練的教材違規比例是八成沒有落實母語教育訓練然後聽我聽不懂也不知道啦然後呢"},{"start":654.071,"end":670.607,"text":"在這種狀況裡面這種方式這個我們都知道移工的語言上的隔閡很大嘛溝通上的限制就會造成這個安慰的對自身危害的辨識能力的障礙所以你如何督導事業單位去這個很重要啊"},{"start":671.047,"end":699.342,"text":"那我們也知道說沒問題發生就沒問題發生我們救福法第54條得以廢止聘僱但是監察院的調查報告指出啊過往的政府對重大職災中違反職安法義務的僱主從以前到現在只有救福法只有一個被一個僱主這麼多的這個職災傷害了失能的案例造成失能等等"},{"start":700.242,"end":717.117,"text":"只有一個被刪除聘僱額度所以也難怪啊這個政府不敢啟動救福法第54條啦不敢重演啦所以難怪僱主始終將移工當成這個用完急丟的商品反正失能了回去吃自己保險賠一賠然後再給一點錢了事"},{"start":722.262,"end":728.506,"text":"我們都以為外籍移工是源源不絕的事實上是不是啊部長你們最清楚知道外籍移工現在不是源源不絕那勞動部你們要落實救福法的規範以外我剛剛講說我們要有一些什麼機制來刻意僱主應該要更嚴格的這個責任"},{"start":746.136,"end":767.811,"text":"那本來就是責任安慰、教育、訓練 對不對就是職災預防法裡面規定的本來就是僱主責任啦欸 發生問題了 確認僱主沒有盡到責任了你還不敢取消他的這個聘僱許可這樣就不對啦 不對對不對我們現在其實針對重大職災的我們都會"},{"start":775.199,"end":778.501,"text":"中大職災現在定義已經改了,中大職災是什麼?中大職災要通報的,光是通報的定義都改了啊"},{"start":785.88,"end":807.355,"text":"只要是住院的就要通報了現在我要講的意思是說你如果造成死亡失能你現在連廢紙他得以繼續聘僱的這個法律工具在那裡蘿蔔跟棒子你蘿蔔沒有給棒子不敢用這整個體系就變成法律失能啊"},{"start":807.975,"end":819.186,"text":"委員我們這個部份一定會落實來執行我現在在建議勞動部你要沿你在這個執安法的法尊請醒要叫他們要實施教育訓練或是工作環境危險標示你這個是不是有使用移工母語語言的招募訓練或是現場的工作標示要納入招募許可應備文件和審查項目"},{"start":833.906,"end":844.765,"text":"你到底有沒有移工母語的安全標示那你的教育訓練有沒有提供這個部分都有提供而且有訓練那才有資格去聘僱"},{"start":846.431,"end":864.31,"text":"其實我是還有一個是臺美21世紀貿易倡議但是主席站起來了所以我就下次再說好了那我們現在在這裡就是說真的是要從這個加封旅業來看其實因為這種3K產業"},{"start":866.687,"end":892.788,"text":"每一個勞工不管是外籍或是本籍每一個勞動力都是很珍貴的每一個家庭都是靠這個勞工在支撐如果他失能或死亡了他的一家資助變成家裡的負擔變成家人一輩子本來是要來支撐這個家庭變成家庭還要來支撐他所以大家都知道說不能平病啊但一平病以後他們往下沉淪家庭的處境是更不堪"},{"start":893.789,"end":916.885,"text":"所以不是發生事情了怎麼樣來賠償他、補償他而已更應該要做的是職業安全衛生裡面講的職災預防預防是最重要的而我們法律工具擱著不用那個就是對勞工來講其實我覺得是最不應該的啦好 謝謝"}]}}}}