{"id":150388,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150388","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bbd43340846c50792cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a67aee9c616f299ce85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"12:19:07 - 12:28:31","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-5"},"date":"2024-03-25","duration":564,"end_time":"2024-03-25T12:28:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-25T12:19:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":933,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（12時19分）謝謝主席。您先稍坐，我等電腦。"],["主席：無聲勝有聲，就是請王部長的意思。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那喝口水。","好了，可以了，請王部長。"],["主席：我看部長在喝水，不忍心打斷。"],["王部長國材：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長。謝謝主席，謝謝大家，辛苦了。我們今天就來聚焦這樣一個特別條例以及適不適合用特別條例的方式來處理。我要再次強調，我非常同意交通建設不分藍綠、不分黨派，但照顧花蓮與臺東必須「照步來」、「照起工」。我支持讓這條快速公路的可行性評估往前走，但是用特別條例可能涉及違憲的疑慮，如果因為硬要用特別條例結果被宣告違憲，反而讓這項建設的正當性沒有了。所以我想請提案委員真的不只要三思而後行，更要百思而後行。今天站在這裡，我要說我一直想到前立委、未來的副總統蕭美琴，她在交通委員會對於花蓮交通的爭取是如何努力、如何打拼！但是蕭美琴不會用違憲的條例、用限縮交通合理專業評估的方式爭取建設，不是嗎？所以，照顧花蓮、臺東要「照步來」，交通建設要「照起工」。","首先我要提醒，這樣的提案，今天的花東快速道路條例只是第一個，2,500億起跳。後續還有國6東延案，至少要8,000億起跳。第三個同樣是傅崐萁總召提案的環島高鐵，那不是億來億去，而是兆來兆去！目前由傅崐萁委員領銜提案的3個特別條例中，有的是用特別預算，有的要用不同基金處理，我想先問部長，這到底是經過精算的數字，還是只是初估，甚至是低估呢？"],["王部長國材：我們有初估，這是初估的。對於初估金額，花東快速公路可行性研究有做，大致上是兩千五百多億。"],["吳委員思瑤：以上。"],["王部長國材：然後，對於國6東延部分，我們初估大概8,000億。"],["吳委員思瑤：也是以上。"],["王部長國材：環島高鐵還沒有全島，就是環島的沒有，關於環島高鐵，我們是建議一段一段來做。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。謝謝部長回答。換言之，這樣三個特別條例的預算匡定，而且限期10年，這是非常rough的估計，未來國庫要提出的金額可能是無以數計，所以慷國家之慨要精算，不是用一個特別條例，數字填一填、寫一寫就可以。我知道今天您站在這裡很不利，可能有很多國民黨的委員就回去剪抖音了，好像民進黨的王國材部長是反對花東快速道路，事實上並沒有。"],["王部長國材：沒有、沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：照顧花東的交通建設，民進黨何其用心，已經投入的，不管是公路、鐵路的建設，有2,200億；規劃中的，不管是鐵路或公路的建設，超過3,000億，照顧花東的交通建設，民進黨很用心，而就這個案子的可行性評估，我們倒要把道理講清楚說明白，就花東快速公路的建設，當初在馬英九任內，讓可行性評估停擺、打回票的是不是馬英九時期？"],["王部長國材：是。他在102年到105年，最後105年做了一個決定，就不做了。"],["吳委員思瑤：就不做了嘛，所以國民黨執政的時候不做了嘛，是蔡英文總統上任之後重啟這一個案子的可行性評估，就是109年，我們大概再等三、四個月，8月就有進一步的可行性評估，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以這一個道路建設是民進黨讓它從胎死腹中到重建生機，起死回生，不是嗎？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我要再次強調，照顧花東「照步來」，交通建設「照起工」，立法不能凌駕行政權，依照憲法第七十條及釋字第391號、釋字第613號，權力分立的原則要捍衛，否則硬要用一個特別條例，最後被釋憲違憲以後，反而是讓這一個公路重大建設被無限期delay，這是有風險的。","我要再補充，很多委員在說民進黨政府提出了前瞻基礎建設計畫，也有花東發展條例，也有離島建設條例，第一個，那是行政權提出，有完整的交通財務相關的規劃。第二個，這些都是通案的建設，沒有聚焦在一個個案的個別建設，所以非常清楚。也有委員說：「這是一個特別條例，不是特別預算，你們不要說這是特別預算。」不好意思，這個條例的第七條不就寫得很清楚，它是用特別條例來綁住，說本條例所需建設經費上限為新臺幣2,500億，循特別預算辦理，它本質就是一個特別預算，就是違憲嘛。第二個，交通建設的評估程序，為什麼要回歸專業？從可行性評估到綜合規劃，到基本設計，到細部設計，到開工、動工，再到驗收，這是一個完整的程序。我們來看看雪隧，雪隧多少年啊？雪隧從1982年公路總局開始提出可行性評估，到1990年行政院核定，到1991年導坑動工，到1993年主線動工，2006年全線通車，這是雪隧的「照起工」。高鐵從1974年公路總局開始進行一個專題研究，1987年可行性評估開始，1999年動工，2007年通車，這是負責任的專業評估，更何況它涉及很多地方的環評生態。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以交通建設的評估要「照起工」嘛。這個條例限期10年，就是要我們快速地快轉，所有的程序不顧，所有該評估的生態衝擊不用評估嗎？當然不是這樣。支持一個建設，就讓它「照起工」，好好做，安全性各項都無虞。","我最後一個要講的是違反財政紀律跟財務評估，我赫然發現，我手上拿著的是2016年徐榛蔚縣長擔任立法委員的時候就同一個條例提出的提案，這邊拿出來的是傅崐萁總召2024年提出來的提案，兩個提案完全照抄，一模一樣，只有四個字不一樣，就是徐榛蔚2016年版是1,000億就好，到2024年傅崐萁的提案，全文照抄，只把1,000億改成2,500億。這數字是可以隨便填空的啊？這數字不需要精準的財務評估啊？所以針對財政紀律法，言必稱財政紀律，國民黨還要提案來修正預算法第八十三條，限縮特別預算的使用的第四款要拿掉，那是自打嘴巴，不是嗎？所以我們要再次強調，交通是專業，照顧花東，民進黨很用心，我們努力來做。今天部長在這裡再三地說明，我們支持這個建設往前走，蔡英文總統任內，讓它的可行性評估起死回生，我們希望三、四個月後可行性評估有好的方向，那就可以循國家預算的程序，還不需要編列特別預算，不是嗎？你們也整組都準備好了嘛，對不對？所以謝謝主席多給我時間，部長，您再清楚講一次，我們支持這一個提案，不要用特別條例的方式，反而讓這個案子最後被大法官釋憲是違憲的話，就無限期的延宕。"],["主席：好，「支持」這兩個字就好了啦。支持啦。"],["王部長國材：對，我想花東的任何建設我們都支持，但是我們希望是按照全國一致的行政程序來走，因為走行政程序，在評估過程中會有比較細微的一些思考，讓這個建設未來更可行。你剛剛談到雪隧也是經過這種程序，所以現在通車也是完整的。"],["吳委員思瑤：對，所以我們往這個方向。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們全力支持，可行性評估如果完成，我們就「照起工」、「照步來」，好不好？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝大家，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳思瑤委員。","下一位請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 556.673, \"end\": 556.934, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 556.934, \"end\": 557.374, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 557.374, \"end\": 557.474, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 557.474, \"end\": 557.494, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 557.494, \"end\": 557.774, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 557.774, \"end\": 557.814, \"score\": 0.488}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 557.814, \"end\": 557.834, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,876 --> 00:00:12,260\n吳聲聲有聲,是請王部長的意思?那喝口水,好可以了請王部長\n\n2\n00:00:28,543 --> 00:00:53,080\n部長謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了我們今天就來聚焦這樣一個特別條例是不是合用特別條例的方式來處理我們要再次強調我非常同意交通建設不分藍綠不分黨派照顧我們的花蓮跟台東就照不來就照棄港所以說我們支持讓這個\n\n3\n00:00:55,302 --> 00:01:21,809\n快速公路的可行性評估往前走但是用特別條例他可能涉及違憲的疑慮如果因為硬要用特別條例結果被宣告了違憲反而是讓這個建設的正當性沒有了所以我想請提案的委員真的不只要三思而後行要百思而後行我今天站在這裡我要說我一直想到我們的前立委未來的副總統蕭美琴\n\n4\n00:01:22,793 --> 00:01:43,368\n他在交通委員會對於花蓮的交通的爭取如何的努力但是蕭美琴不會用一個違憲的條例用一個限縮交通合理專業評估的方式來爭取建設不是嗎\n\n5\n00:01:44,148 --> 00:02:10,828\n所以照顧華聯台當照部來交通建設都要照期剛好下一頁首先我要提醒喔這樣的一個提案今天的花東快速道路只是第一個2500億起跳後續還有國六的東延至少要8000億起跳第三個同樣是傅坤祺總召提案的環島高鐵那不是一來一去那是條來條去\n\n6\n00:02:13,510 --> 00:02:29,321\n所以就目前由副會計委員領銜提案的3個特別條例有的是用特別預算有的要用不同的基金來處理它我想先問您這到底是有經過精算的數字還是只是初估甚至是低估呢部長\n\n7\n00:02:30,011 --> 00:02:52,088\n我們有粗估這個是粗估的因為花東快速公路現在有粗估我們可行性有做所以大致大概2500多億然後國六東眼的部分我們是粗估大概近8000億也是以上環島高鐵還沒有全島就環島的沒有沒有現在因為我們在環島高鐵我們是建議說一段一段\n\n8\n00:02:53,329 --> 00:03:09,031\n謝部長回答換言之這樣3個特別條例的預算框定而且限期10年這是非常rough的估計我們未來國庫要提出的可能是無以數計所以說看國家之愷要精算\n\n9\n00:03:09,992 --> 00:03:30,670\n不是用一個特別條例數字填一填寫一寫就可以好下一頁我知道今天對您站在這裡很不利啊可能有很多國民黨的委員就去回去撿抖音了啦好像就說我們民進黨的王國才部長是反對花東快速道路並沒有\n\n10\n00:03:31,511 --> 00:03:47,160\n照顧花東民進黨何其用心已經投入的不管公路鐵路的建設2200億規劃中不管鐵路或公路的建設超過3000億照顧花東的交通建設民進黨就用心\n\n11\n00:03:48,681 --> 00:04:10,419\n而就這個案子的可行性評估我們倒要把道理講清楚說明白就花東快速公路的建設當初在馬英九時期任內讓可行性評估停擺打回票的是不是馬英九時期是他在102到最後105是做一個決定就不做了\n\n12\n00:04:10,759 --> 00:04:10,839\n下一頁\n\n13\n00:04:35,146 --> 00:04:44,338\n我就剩這一頁主席不好意思我要再次強調照顧花東叫不來交通建設叫起綱立法不能凌駕行政權憲法70條釋字391號釋字613號\n\n14\n00:04:51,227 --> 00:05:10,952\n全力分立的原則要捍衛否則我說硬要用一個特別條例最後被釋憲違憲以後反而是讓這一個公路讓這一個重大建設被無限期的delay這是有風險的第二個我要再補充很多委員在說你民進黨政府提出了前瞻也有這個花東發展條例也有離島建設條例第一個\n\n15\n00:05:15,293 --> 00:05:31,109\n那是行政權提出他有完整的交通財務相關的規劃第二個這些都是通案的建設沒有聚焦在一個個案的個別建設所以非常清楚也有委員說這是一個特別條例不是特別預算你們不要說這是特別預算\n\n16\n00:05:35,794 --> 00:05:48,973\n不好意思,記得條例第7條不就寫得很清楚他是用特別條例來綁住說本條例所需建設經費上限為新台幣2500億循特別預算辦理他本質就是一個特別預算就是違憲嘛第二個\n\n17\n00:05:51,977 --> 00:06:11,634\n交通建設的評估程序為什麼要回歸專業從可行性評估到這個綜合規劃到基本設計到細部設計到開工動工再到驗收這是一個完整的我們來看看雪碎雪碎多少年啊\n\n18\n00:06:12,788 --> 00:06:21,781\n雪穗從1982年公務總局開始提出可行性評估到他1990年行政院核定到1991年倒坑動工1993年主線動工2006年全線通車這是雪穗的叫起綱阿\n\n19\n00:06:28,371 --> 00:06:52,104\n高鐵1974年公路總局開始進行一個專題研究1987年可行性評估開始1999年動工2007年通車這是負責任的專業的評估更何況它涉及很多地方的環評生態所以說交通建設的評估要叫Kigang嘛這一個條例限期10年10年\n\n20\n00:06:56,557 --> 00:07:21,702\n這是要我們快速的快轉所有的程序不顧所有該評估的生態衝擊不用評估嗎當然不是這樣支持一個建設就讓他叫起剛好好做安全性各項都無虞我最後一個違反財政紀律跟財務評估我赫然發現我手上拿著是2016年徐真偉縣長擔任立法委員的時候同一個條例他的提案\n\n21\n00:07:23,042 --> 00:07:41,691\n這邊拿出來的是傅崐萁總召2024年提出來的提案兩個提案完全照抄一模一樣只有四個字不一樣就是徐真衛2016年版是1000億就好到2024年傅崐萁的提案全文照抄只把1000億改成2500億這數字是可以隨便填空的\n\n22\n00:07:47,553 --> 00:07:49,976\n此數字不需要精準的財務評估所以針對財政紀律法嚴閉稱財政紀律\n\n23\n00:07:55,342 --> 00:08:18,615\n國民黨還要體驗來修正預算法83條限縮特別預算的使用的第4款要拿掉那自打嘴巴不是嗎所以我們要再次強調把專業交通是專業照顧花東民進黨很用心我們努力來做今天部長在這裡再三的說明我們支持這個建設往前走\n\n24\n00:08:19,375 --> 00:08:35,509\n蔡英文總統任內讓她的可行性評估起死回生我們希望3、4個月後可行性評估有好的方向那就可以循國家預算的程序還不需要編列公務特別預算不是嗎?你也整艘船好了嘛對不對?\n\n25\n00:08:36,830 --> 00:09:03,528\n所以謝謝主席多給我時間部長您再清楚講一次我們支持這一個提案不要用特別條例的方式反而讓這個案子最後被大法官事先是違憲的話就無限期的延擋我想花東的任何建設我們都支持但是我們希望是按照全國一致的行政程序來走因為走行政程序他因為在評估過程中會有比較細微的一些思考\n\n26\n00:09:04,448 --> 00:09:17,834\n讓這個建設未來更可行。剛剛談到血稅也是經過這種程序所以現在通車也是很完整的所以我們往這個方向我們全力支持可行性評估如果完成我們就叫起綱叫補來好不好謝謝大家謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7876\t12260\t吳聲聲有聲,是請王部長的意思?那喝口水,好可以了請王部長\n28543\t53080\t部長謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了我們今天就來聚焦這樣一個特別條例是不是合用特別條例的方式來處理我們要再次強調我非常同意交通建設不分藍綠不分黨派照顧我們的花蓮跟台東就照不來就照棄港所以說我們支持讓這個\n55302\t81809\t快速公路的可行性評估往前走但是用特別條例他可能涉及違憲的疑慮如果因為硬要用特別條例結果被宣告了違憲反而是讓這個建設的正當性沒有了所以我想請提案的委員真的不只要三思而後行要百思而後行我今天站在這裡我要說我一直想到我們的前立委未來的副總統蕭美琴\n82793\t103368\t他在交通委員會對於花蓮的交通的爭取如何的努力但是蕭美琴不會用一個違憲的條例用一個限縮交通合理專業評估的方式來爭取建設不是嗎\n104148\t130828\t所以照顧華聯台當照部來交通建設都要照期剛好下一頁首先我要提醒喔這樣的一個提案今天的花東快速道路只是第一個2500億起跳後續還有國六的東延至少要8000億起跳第三個同樣是傅坤祺總召提案的環島高鐵那不是一來一去那是條來條去\n133510\t149321\t所以就目前由副會計委員領銜提案的3個特別條例有的是用特別預算有的要用不同的基金來處理它我想先問您這到底是有經過精算的數字還是只是初估甚至是低估呢部長\n150011\t172088\t我們有粗估這個是粗估的因為花東快速公路現在有粗估我們可行性有做所以大致大概2500多億然後國六東眼的部分我們是粗估大概近8000億也是以上環島高鐵還沒有全島就環島的沒有沒有現在因為我們在環島高鐵我們是建議說一段一段\n173329\t189031\t謝部長回答換言之這樣3個特別條例的預算框定而且限期10年這是非常rough的估計我們未來國庫要提出的可能是無以數計所以說看國家之愷要精算\n189992\t210670\t不是用一個特別條例數字填一填寫一寫就可以好下一頁我知道今天對您站在這裡很不利啊可能有很多國民黨的委員就去回去撿抖音了啦好像就說我們民進黨的王國才部長是反對花東快速道路並沒有\n211511\t227160\t照顧花東民進黨何其用心已經投入的不管公路鐵路的建設2200億規劃中不管鐵路或公路的建設超過3000億照顧花東的交通建設民進黨就用心\n228681\t250419\t而就這個案子的可行性評估我們倒要把道理講清楚說明白就花東快速公路的建設當初在馬英九時期任內讓可行性評估停擺打回票的是不是馬英九時期是他在102到最後105是做一個決定就不做了\n250759\t250839\t下一頁\n275146\t284338\t我就剩這一頁主席不好意思我要再次強調照顧花東叫不來交通建設叫起綱立法不能凌駕行政權憲法70條釋字391號釋字613號\n291227\t310952\t全力分立的原則要捍衛否則我說硬要用一個特別條例最後被釋憲違憲以後反而是讓這一個公路讓這一個重大建設被無限期的delay這是有風險的第二個我要再補充很多委員在說你民進黨政府提出了前瞻也有這個花東發展條例也有離島建設條例第一個\n315293\t331109\t那是行政權提出他有完整的交通財務相關的規劃第二個這些都是通案的建設沒有聚焦在一個個案的個別建設所以非常清楚也有委員說這是一個特別條例不是特別預算你們不要說這是特別預算\n335794\t348973\t不好意思,記得條例第7條不就寫得很清楚他是用特別條例來綁住說本條例所需建設經費上限為新台幣2500億循特別預算辦理他本質就是一個特別預算就是違憲嘛第二個\n351977\t371634\t交通建設的評估程序為什麼要回歸專業從可行性評估到這個綜合規劃到基本設計到細部設計到開工動工再到驗收這是一個完整的我們來看看雪碎雪碎多少年啊\n372788\t381781\t雪穗從1982年公務總局開始提出可行性評估到他1990年行政院核定到1991年倒坑動工1993年主線動工2006年全線通車這是雪穗的叫起綱阿\n388371\t412104\t高鐵1974年公路總局開始進行一個專題研究1987年可行性評估開始1999年動工2007年通車這是負責任的專業的評估更何況它涉及很多地方的環評生態所以說交通建設的評估要叫Kigang嘛這一個條例限期10年10年\n416557\t441702\t這是要我們快速的快轉所有的程序不顧所有該評估的生態衝擊不用評估嗎當然不是這樣支持一個建設就讓他叫起剛好好做安全性各項都無虞我最後一個違反財政紀律跟財務評估我赫然發現我手上拿著是2016年徐真偉縣長擔任立法委員的時候同一個條例他的提案\n443042\t461691\t這邊拿出來的是傅崐萁總召2024年提出來的提案兩個提案完全照抄一模一樣只有四個字不一樣就是徐真衛2016年版是1000億就好到2024年傅崐萁的提案全文照抄只把1000億改成2500億這數字是可以隨便填空的\n467553\t469976\t此數字不需要精準的財務評估所以針對財政紀律法嚴閉稱財政紀律\n475342\t498615\t國民黨還要體驗來修正預算法83條限縮特別預算的使用的第4款要拿掉那自打嘴巴不是嗎所以我們要再次強調把專業交通是專業照顧花東民進黨很用心我們努力來做今天部長在這裡再三的說明我們支持這個建設往前走\n499375\t515509\t蔡英文總統任內讓她的可行性評估起死回生我們希望3、4個月後可行性評估有好的方向那就可以循國家預算的程序還不需要編列公務特別預算不是嗎?你也整艘船好了嘛對不對?\n516830\t543528\t所以謝謝主席多給我時間部長您再清楚講一次我們支持這一個提案不要用特別條例的方式反而讓這個案子最後被大法官事先是違憲的話就無限期的延擋我想花東的任何建設我們都支持但是我們希望是按照全國一致的行政程序來走因為走行政程序他因為在評估過程中會有比較細微的一些思考\n544448\t557834\t讓這個建設未來更可行。剛剛談到血稅也是經過這種程序所以現在通車也是很完整的所以我們往這個方向我們全力支持可行性評估如果完成我們就叫起綱叫補來好不好謝謝大家謝謝主席\n","txt":"吳聲聲有聲,是請王部長的意思?那喝口水,好可以了請王部長\n部長謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了我們今天就來聚焦這樣一個特別條例是不是合用特別條例的方式來處理我們要再次強調我非常同意交通建設不分藍綠不分黨派照顧我們的花蓮跟台東就照不來就照棄港所以說我們支持讓這個\n快速公路的可行性評估往前走但是用特別條例他可能涉及違憲的疑慮如果因為硬要用特別條例結果被宣告了違憲反而是讓這個建設的正當性沒有了所以我想請提案的委員真的不只要三思而後行要百思而後行我今天站在這裡我要說我一直想到我們的前立委未來的副總統蕭美琴\n他在交通委員會對於花蓮的交通的爭取如何的努力但是蕭美琴不會用一個違憲的條例用一個限縮交通合理專業評估的方式來爭取建設不是嗎\n所以照顧華聯台當照部來交通建設都要照期剛好下一頁首先我要提醒喔這樣的一個提案今天的花東快速道路只是第一個2500億起跳後續還有國六的東延至少要8000億起跳第三個同樣是傅坤祺總召提案的環島高鐵那不是一來一去那是條來條去\n所以就目前由副會計委員領銜提案的3個特別條例有的是用特別預算有的要用不同的基金來處理它我想先問您這到底是有經過精算的數字還是只是初估甚至是低估呢部長\n我們有粗估這個是粗估的因為花東快速公路現在有粗估我們可行性有做所以大致大概2500多億然後國六東眼的部分我們是粗估大概近8000億也是以上環島高鐵還沒有全島就環島的沒有沒有現在因為我們在環島高鐵我們是建議說一段一段\n謝部長回答換言之這樣3個特別條例的預算框定而且限期10年這是非常rough的估計我們未來國庫要提出的可能是無以數計所以說看國家之愷要精算\n不是用一個特別條例數字填一填寫一寫就可以好下一頁我知道今天對您站在這裡很不利啊可能有很多國民黨的委員就去回去撿抖音了啦好像就說我們民進黨的王國才部長是反對花東快速道路並沒有\n照顧花東民進黨何其用心已經投入的不管公路鐵路的建設2200億規劃中不管鐵路或公路的建設超過3000億照顧花東的交通建設民進黨就用心\n而就這個案子的可行性評估我們倒要把道理講清楚說明白就花東快速公路的建設當初在馬英九時期任內讓可行性評估停擺打回票的是不是馬英九時期是他在102到最後105是做一個決定就不做了\n下一頁\n我就剩這一頁主席不好意思我要再次強調照顧花東叫不來交通建設叫起綱立法不能凌駕行政權憲法70條釋字391號釋字613號\n全力分立的原則要捍衛否則我說硬要用一個特別條例最後被釋憲違憲以後反而是讓這一個公路讓這一個重大建設被無限期的delay這是有風險的第二個我要再補充很多委員在說你民進黨政府提出了前瞻也有這個花東發展條例也有離島建設條例第一個\n那是行政權提出他有完整的交通財務相關的規劃第二個這些都是通案的建設沒有聚焦在一個個案的個別建設所以非常清楚也有委員說這是一個特別條例不是特別預算你們不要說這是特別預算\n不好意思,記得條例第7條不就寫得很清楚他是用特別條例來綁住說本條例所需建設經費上限為新台幣2500億循特別預算辦理他本質就是一個特別預算就是違憲嘛第二個\n交通建設的評估程序為什麼要回歸專業從可行性評估到這個綜合規劃到基本設計到細部設計到開工動工再到驗收這是一個完整的我們來看看雪碎雪碎多少年啊\n雪穗從1982年公務總局開始提出可行性評估到他1990年行政院核定到1991年倒坑動工1993年主線動工2006年全線通車這是雪穗的叫起綱阿\n高鐵1974年公路總局開始進行一個專題研究1987年可行性評估開始1999年動工2007年通車這是負責任的專業的評估更何況它涉及很多地方的環評生態所以說交通建設的評估要叫Kigang嘛這一個條例限期10年10年\n這是要我們快速的快轉所有的程序不顧所有該評估的生態衝擊不用評估嗎當然不是這樣支持一個建設就讓他叫起剛好好做安全性各項都無虞我最後一個違反財政紀律跟財務評估我赫然發現我手上拿著是2016年徐真偉縣長擔任立法委員的時候同一個條例他的提案\n這邊拿出來的是傅崐萁總召2024年提出來的提案兩個提案完全照抄一模一樣只有四個字不一樣就是徐真衛2016年版是1000億就好到2024年傅崐萁的提案全文照抄只把1000億改成2500億這數字是可以隨便填空的\n此數字不需要精準的財務評估所以針對財政紀律法嚴閉稱財政紀律\n國民黨還要體驗來修正預算法83條限縮特別預算的使用的第4款要拿掉那自打嘴巴不是嗎所以我們要再次強調把專業交通是專業照顧花東民進黨很用心我們努力來做今天部長在這裡再三的說明我們支持這個建設往前走\n蔡英文總統任內讓她的可行性評估起死回生我們希望3、4個月後可行性評估有好的方向那就可以循國家預算的程序還不需要編列公務特別預算不是嗎?你也整艘船好了嘛對不對?\n所以謝謝主席多給我時間部長您再清楚講一次我們支持這一個提案不要用特別條例的方式反而讓這個案子最後被大法官事先是違憲的話就無限期的延擋我想花東的任何建設我們都支持但是我們希望是按照全國一致的行政程序來走因為走行政程序他因為在評估過程中會有比較細微的一些思考\n讓這個建設未來更可行。剛剛談到血稅也是經過這種程序所以現在通車也是很完整的所以我們往這個方向我們全力支持可行性評估如果完成我們就叫起綱叫補來好不好謝謝大家謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.876 --> 00:12.260\n吳聲聲有聲,是請王部長的意思?那喝口水,好可以了請王部長\n\n00:28.543 --> 00:53.080\n部長謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了我們今天就來聚焦這樣一個特別條例是不是合用特別條例的方式來處理我們要再次強調我非常同意交通建設不分藍綠不分黨派照顧我們的花蓮跟台東就照不來就照棄港所以說我們支持讓這個\n\n00:55.302 --> 01:21.809\n快速公路的可行性評估往前走但是用特別條例他可能涉及違憲的疑慮如果因為硬要用特別條例結果被宣告了違憲反而是讓這個建設的正當性沒有了所以我想請提案的委員真的不只要三思而後行要百思而後行我今天站在這裡我要說我一直想到我們的前立委未來的副總統蕭美琴\n\n01:22.793 --> 01:43.368\n他在交通委員會對於花蓮的交通的爭取如何的努力但是蕭美琴不會用一個違憲的條例用一個限縮交通合理專業評估的方式來爭取建設不是嗎\n\n01:44.148 --> 02:10.828\n所以照顧華聯台當照部來交通建設都要照期剛好下一頁首先我要提醒喔這樣的一個提案今天的花東快速道路只是第一個2500億起跳後續還有國六的東延至少要8000億起跳第三個同樣是傅坤祺總召提案的環島高鐵那不是一來一去那是條來條去\n\n02:13.510 --> 02:29.321\n所以就目前由副會計委員領銜提案的3個特別條例有的是用特別預算有的要用不同的基金來處理它我想先問您這到底是有經過精算的數字還是只是初估甚至是低估呢部長\n\n02:30.011 --> 02:52.088\n我們有粗估這個是粗估的因為花東快速公路現在有粗估我們可行性有做所以大致大概2500多億然後國六東眼的部分我們是粗估大概近8000億也是以上環島高鐵還沒有全島就環島的沒有沒有現在因為我們在環島高鐵我們是建議說一段一段\n\n02:53.329 --> 03:09.031\n謝部長回答換言之這樣3個特別條例的預算框定而且限期10年這是非常rough的估計我們未來國庫要提出的可能是無以數計所以說看國家之愷要精算\n\n03:09.992 --> 03:30.670\n不是用一個特別條例數字填一填寫一寫就可以好下一頁我知道今天對您站在這裡很不利啊可能有很多國民黨的委員就去回去撿抖音了啦好像就說我們民進黨的王國才部長是反對花東快速道路並沒有\n\n03:31.511 --> 03:47.160\n照顧花東民進黨何其用心已經投入的不管公路鐵路的建設2200億規劃中不管鐵路或公路的建設超過3000億照顧花東的交通建設民進黨就用心\n\n03:48.681 --> 04:10.419\n而就這個案子的可行性評估我們倒要把道理講清楚說明白就花東快速公路的建設當初在馬英九時期任內讓可行性評估停擺打回票的是不是馬英九時期是他在102到最後105是做一個決定就不做了\n\n04:10.759 --> 04:10.839\n下一頁\n\n04:35.146 --> 04:44.338\n我就剩這一頁主席不好意思我要再次強調照顧花東叫不來交通建設叫起綱立法不能凌駕行政權憲法70條釋字391號釋字613號\n\n04:51.227 --> 05:10.952\n全力分立的原則要捍衛否則我說硬要用一個特別條例最後被釋憲違憲以後反而是讓這一個公路讓這一個重大建設被無限期的delay這是有風險的第二個我要再補充很多委員在說你民進黨政府提出了前瞻也有這個花東發展條例也有離島建設條例第一個\n\n05:15.293 --> 05:31.109\n那是行政權提出他有完整的交通財務相關的規劃第二個這些都是通案的建設沒有聚焦在一個個案的個別建設所以非常清楚也有委員說這是一個特別條例不是特別預算你們不要說這是特別預算\n\n05:35.794 --> 05:48.973\n不好意思,記得條例第7條不就寫得很清楚他是用特別條例來綁住說本條例所需建設經費上限為新台幣2500億循特別預算辦理他本質就是一個特別預算就是違憲嘛第二個\n\n05:51.977 --> 06:11.634\n交通建設的評估程序為什麼要回歸專業從可行性評估到這個綜合規劃到基本設計到細部設計到開工動工再到驗收這是一個完整的我們來看看雪碎雪碎多少年啊\n\n06:12.788 --> 06:21.781\n雪穗從1982年公務總局開始提出可行性評估到他1990年行政院核定到1991年倒坑動工1993年主線動工2006年全線通車這是雪穗的叫起綱阿\n\n06:28.371 --> 06:52.104\n高鐵1974年公路總局開始進行一個專題研究1987年可行性評估開始1999年動工2007年通車這是負責任的專業的評估更何況它涉及很多地方的環評生態所以說交通建設的評估要叫Kigang嘛這一個條例限期10年10年\n\n06:56.557 --> 07:21.702\n這是要我們快速的快轉所有的程序不顧所有該評估的生態衝擊不用評估嗎當然不是這樣支持一個建設就讓他叫起剛好好做安全性各項都無虞我最後一個違反財政紀律跟財務評估我赫然發現我手上拿著是2016年徐真偉縣長擔任立法委員的時候同一個條例他的提案\n\n07:23.042 --> 07:41.691\n這邊拿出來的是傅崐萁總召2024年提出來的提案兩個提案完全照抄一模一樣只有四個字不一樣就是徐真衛2016年版是1000億就好到2024年傅崐萁的提案全文照抄只把1000億改成2500億這數字是可以隨便填空的\n\n07:47.553 --> 07:49.976\n此數字不需要精準的財務評估所以針對財政紀律法嚴閉稱財政紀律\n\n07:55.342 --> 08:18.615\n國民黨還要體驗來修正預算法83條限縮特別預算的使用的第4款要拿掉那自打嘴巴不是嗎所以我們要再次強調把專業交通是專業照顧花東民進黨很用心我們努力來做今天部長在這裡再三的說明我們支持這個建設往前走\n\n08:19.375 --> 08:35.509\n蔡英文總統任內讓她的可行性評估起死回生我們希望3、4個月後可行性評估有好的方向那就可以循國家預算的程序還不需要編列公務特別預算不是嗎?你也整艘船好了嘛對不對?\n\n08:36.830 --> 09:03.528\n所以謝謝主席多給我時間部長您再清楚講一次我們支持這一個提案不要用特別條例的方式反而讓這個案子最後被大法官事先是違憲的話就無限期的延擋我想花東的任何建設我們都支持但是我們希望是按照全國一致的行政程序來走因為走行政程序他因為在評估過程中會有比較細微的一些思考\n\n09:04.448 --> 09:17.834\n讓這個建設未來更可行。剛剛談到血稅也是經過這種程序所以現在通車也是很完整的所以我們往這個方向我們全力支持可行性評估如果完成我們就叫起綱叫補來好不好謝謝大家謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.876,"end":12.26,"text":"吳聲聲有聲,是請王部長的意思?那喝口水,好可以了請王部長"},{"start":28.543,"end":53.08,"text":"部長謝謝主席謝謝大家辛苦了我們今天就來聚焦這樣一個特別條例是不是合用特別條例的方式來處理我們要再次強調我非常同意交通建設不分藍綠不分黨派照顧我們的花蓮跟台東就照不來就照棄港所以說我們支持讓這個"},{"start":55.302,"end":81.809,"text":"快速公路的可行性評估往前走但是用特別條例他可能涉及違憲的疑慮如果因為硬要用特別條例結果被宣告了違憲反而是讓這個建設的正當性沒有了所以我想請提案的委員真的不只要三思而後行要百思而後行我今天站在這裡我要說我一直想到我們的前立委未來的副總統蕭美琴"},{"start":82.793,"end":103.368,"text":"他在交通委員會對於花蓮的交通的爭取如何的努力但是蕭美琴不會用一個違憲的條例用一個限縮交通合理專業評估的方式來爭取建設不是嗎"},{"start":104.148,"end":130.828,"text":"所以照顧華聯台當照部來交通建設都要照期剛好下一頁首先我要提醒喔這樣的一個提案今天的花東快速道路只是第一個2500億起跳後續還有國六的東延至少要8000億起跳第三個同樣是傅坤祺總召提案的環島高鐵那不是一來一去那是條來條去"},{"start":133.51,"end":149.321,"text":"所以就目前由副會計委員領銜提案的3個特別條例有的是用特別預算有的要用不同的基金來處理它我想先問您這到底是有經過精算的數字還是只是初估甚至是低估呢部長"},{"start":150.011,"end":172.088,"text":"我們有粗估這個是粗估的因為花東快速公路現在有粗估我們可行性有做所以大致大概2500多億然後國六東眼的部分我們是粗估大概近8000億也是以上環島高鐵還沒有全島就環島的沒有沒有現在因為我們在環島高鐵我們是建議說一段一段"},{"start":173.329,"end":189.031,"text":"謝部長回答換言之這樣3個特別條例的預算框定而且限期10年這是非常rough的估計我們未來國庫要提出的可能是無以數計所以說看國家之愷要精算"},{"start":189.992,"end":210.67,"text":"不是用一個特別條例數字填一填寫一寫就可以好下一頁我知道今天對您站在這裡很不利啊可能有很多國民黨的委員就去回去撿抖音了啦好像就說我們民進黨的王國才部長是反對花東快速道路並沒有"},{"start":211.511,"end":227.16,"text":"照顧花東民進黨何其用心已經投入的不管公路鐵路的建設2200億規劃中不管鐵路或公路的建設超過3000億照顧花東的交通建設民進黨就用心"},{"start":228.681,"end":250.419,"text":"而就這個案子的可行性評估我們倒要把道理講清楚說明白就花東快速公路的建設當初在馬英九時期任內讓可行性評估停擺打回票的是不是馬英九時期是他在102到最後105是做一個決定就不做了"},{"start":250.759,"end":250.839,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":275.146,"end":284.338,"text":"我就剩這一頁主席不好意思我要再次強調照顧花東叫不來交通建設叫起綱立法不能凌駕行政權憲法70條釋字391號釋字613號"},{"start":291.227,"end":310.952,"text":"全力分立的原則要捍衛否則我說硬要用一個特別條例最後被釋憲違憲以後反而是讓這一個公路讓這一個重大建設被無限期的delay這是有風險的第二個我要再補充很多委員在說你民進黨政府提出了前瞻也有這個花東發展條例也有離島建設條例第一個"},{"start":315.293,"end":331.109,"text":"那是行政權提出他有完整的交通財務相關的規劃第二個這些都是通案的建設沒有聚焦在一個個案的個別建設所以非常清楚也有委員說這是一個特別條例不是特別預算你們不要說這是特別預算"},{"start":335.794,"end":348.973,"text":"不好意思,記得條例第7條不就寫得很清楚他是用特別條例來綁住說本條例所需建設經費上限為新台幣2500億循特別預算辦理他本質就是一個特別預算就是違憲嘛第二個"},{"start":351.977,"end":371.634,"text":"交通建設的評估程序為什麼要回歸專業從可行性評估到這個綜合規劃到基本設計到細部設計到開工動工再到驗收這是一個完整的我們來看看雪碎雪碎多少年啊"},{"start":372.788,"end":381.781,"text":"雪穗從1982年公務總局開始提出可行性評估到他1990年行政院核定到1991年倒坑動工1993年主線動工2006年全線通車這是雪穗的叫起綱阿"},{"start":388.371,"end":412.104,"text":"高鐵1974年公路總局開始進行一個專題研究1987年可行性評估開始1999年動工2007年通車這是負責任的專業的評估更何況它涉及很多地方的環評生態所以說交通建設的評估要叫Kigang嘛這一個條例限期10年10年"},{"start":416.557,"end":441.702,"text":"這是要我們快速的快轉所有的程序不顧所有該評估的生態衝擊不用評估嗎當然不是這樣支持一個建設就讓他叫起剛好好做安全性各項都無虞我最後一個違反財政紀律跟財務評估我赫然發現我手上拿著是2016年徐真偉縣長擔任立法委員的時候同一個條例他的提案"},{"start":443.042,"end":461.691,"text":"這邊拿出來的是傅崐萁總召2024年提出來的提案兩個提案完全照抄一模一樣只有四個字不一樣就是徐真衛2016年版是1000億就好到2024年傅崐萁的提案全文照抄只把1000億改成2500億這數字是可以隨便填空的"},{"start":467.553,"end":469.976,"text":"此數字不需要精準的財務評估所以針對財政紀律法嚴閉稱財政紀律"},{"start":475.342,"end":498.615,"text":"國民黨還要體驗來修正預算法83條限縮特別預算的使用的第4款要拿掉那自打嘴巴不是嗎所以我們要再次強調把專業交通是專業照顧花東民進黨很用心我們努力來做今天部長在這裡再三的說明我們支持這個建設往前走"},{"start":499.375,"end":515.509,"text":"蔡英文總統任內讓她的可行性評估起死回生我們希望3、4個月後可行性評估有好的方向那就可以循國家預算的程序還不需要編列公務特別預算不是嗎?你也整艘船好了嘛對不對?"},{"start":516.83,"end":543.528,"text":"所以謝謝主席多給我時間部長您再清楚講一次我們支持這一個提案不要用特別條例的方式反而讓這個案子最後被大法官事先是違憲的話就無限期的延擋我想花東的任何建設我們都支持但是我們希望是按照全國一致的行政程序來走因為走行政程序他因為在評估過程中會有比較細微的一些思考"},{"start":544.448,"end":557.834,"text":"讓這個建設未來更可行。剛剛談到血稅也是經過這種程序所以現在通車也是很完整的所以我們往這個方向我們全力支持可行性評估如果完成我們就叫起綱叫補來好不好謝謝大家謝謝主席"}]}}}}