{"id":150425,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150425","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee3bab7ca1a8ec3c4a8ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a615031a6dbd7ca5fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"14:30:32 - 14:46:16","影片長度":"00:15:44","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-1-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":6},"date":"2024-03-26","duration":944,"end_time":"2024-03-26T14:46:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-26T14:30:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（14時30分）謝謝主席，我們請行政院長跟衛福部長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長及衛福部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：黃委員午安，恭喜你當選立委。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝院長，謝謝部長。首先我想要請教一下人工生殖的議題，臺灣在2019年通過了同婚，在去年我們也通過了跨國同婚還有同性伴侶的共同收養，這個其實非常不簡單，我覺得這是民進黨的行政部門，還有我們立法院所有的夥伴，還有許多團體共同的成果，因為我們非常重視性別人權，才有今天這個亞洲第一的成果。走到了現在，我認為接下來我們應該要討論一下人工生殖的部分，也就是性別權益最後的一塊拼圖也應該要把它拼起來。首先我想要請教一下院長，你認為生育權是不是憲法所保障的權利之一？"],["陳院長建仁：應該是。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，這個是憲法保障的基本權之一，因為大法官的釋字裡面有提到，要保障個人的主體性、人格發展的自由，所以我們需要家庭制度，是因為家庭可以提供繁衍、教育、經濟、文化等等這一些社會必要的支持，所以大法官其實是非常肯認這個生育權的。只是接下來要討論繁衍的權利到底有沒有必要跟家庭綁在一起，為什麼會這樣問呢？因為其實現在我們不結婚，你收養小孩一樣是被憲法所保障的，也就是說你單身是可以進行收養的，以現在臺灣相關的規定來看，不管你要請產假、產檢假，還是領生育補助、領育兒補助，都沒有一定要以結婚為前提，也就是說，我認為不管你有沒有結婚，其實憲法都保障你的生育權。","在這樣的觀點之下來討論人工生殖，我認為其實現在的人工生殖法非常有可能會違憲，怎麼說？因為臺灣的人工生殖法只有保障異性戀的不孕夫妻，現在是這樣子，這樣其實非常的不合理啊！我認為我們人工生殖法應該也要把同志配偶以及單身的女性放進去才對，當然現在的討論是，社會上有人認為單身的家庭是不是資源少一半，然後覺得家庭支持的系統少了一半，可能會影響小孩子的認同，覺得這樣是不正常的家庭觀，當然社會上有一些這樣反彈的聲音。甚至有些人會覺得，如果單身女性透過人工生殖來懷孕，會刻意的造成單親家庭，然後會說，因為父親缺席了，你就違反兒童公約的兒童最佳利益。請問院長，您同意這些反對的看法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：確實是有人提出這樣的反對，在人工生殖法的討論過程當中，確實有這樣的一個意見，但是我們會通盤就不同的意見來取得最佳的解決方案。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝院長。我必須說，其實單親會不會對小孩造成影響，不能用感覺、不能用偏見來看待。"],["陳院長建仁：是，同意。"],["黃委員捷：我有準備一些研究，這些研究其實就把這樣的偏見澈底的排除。這個是第一種研究，它是一種非自願單親的型態，它的研究結果是什麼呢？它說，對小孩會造成影響的不在於你的身分，而是你的經歷，也就是說，你有沒有因為離婚讓這個家庭造成小孩覺得有陰影，或者是說因為目睹了父母之間過去有非常多的衝突，然後對小孩造成壓力，也就是說，你的身分是什麼、你是不是單親，並不是影響小孩心理最重要的因素，而是在他成長的過程是不是經歷了一些讓他造成陰影的事情。我還有看到另外一份研究，它是準備了一組51個單親的家庭，然後另外一組是雙親，他們都是透過捐精的方式懷孕的，在這兩組的類別當中發現什麼呢？它發現其實不管你是哪一種型態的家庭，你的養育品質都是沒有差異的，甚至還發現單親家庭中母親與孩子的衝突頻率比雙親家庭還低。他的意思就是，不會因為你是單親媽媽就特別讓孩子有心理壓力，甚至有另外一個研究也是類似的，家庭關係的重要性比家庭的結構來得重要，也就是你跟小孩子到底有沒有好好相處，有沒有讓他感受到你的關懷，遠比到底是什麼類型的家庭結構重要的多。","所以我認為前面的這些反對意見根本就不存在，重點是你的家庭、你的社會可以給予多少支持，這種先入為主一定要一個爸爸、一個媽媽才能對小孩比較好，這樣的觀點其實並沒有社會的支持，以及目前的研究來支持的。根據以上這些主張，我想要問，現在行政院有沒有在準備人工生殖版的修法？如果有的話，大概什麼時候可以送進來？"],["陳院長建仁：確實是有，我請部長簡單回答一下。"],["薛部長瑞元：目前正在修法的過程當中，我們彙集各界的意見，上一次我們也舉辦了一次公聽會，在27日還會舉行另外一次的公聽會，把這些意見都蒐集起來之後，我們的版本就會送到行政院去。"],["黃委員捷：院版預計在什麼樣的時程有辦法送進來立法院，我們可以進到修法的階段？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為行政院裡面還會有政委主持的審查會，所以在這個部分的話，也許看看上半年能不能就送到立法院來。"],["陳院長建仁：一旦送到行政院來，我們會請政委加速審查，加速出行政院。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝院長，謝謝部長，希望如期的、如你們所說的，上半年我們就把人工生殖法送進來。","再來，我要請教部長，因為最近我接到非常多的網路圈、創作圈的陳情，陳情的內容是什麼呢？是關於兒少虛擬的部分。我們看一下iWIN的爭議，這個爭議的起源其實是衛福部在去年10月時發了一個函釋，函釋裡面說什麼呢？兒少性剝削條例包括虛擬的兒少性影像。在這個函釋發了之後，12月iWIN就接到檢舉，其指出PTT上面有人在散播虛擬兒少的色情圖片，經iWIN判斷這有違反兒少性剝削，而且違反兒少權法，結果網路上的創作圈就爆炸了。因此我們就接到一大堆陳情，說我們現在的控制是到什麼程度，其實大家比較多的是擔憂，覺得在我們具體範圍不明的情況下，大家不知道該如何是好。","首先，我先請問一下部長，現在不管是兒少性剝削條例或兒少權法，針對真實兒少的色情，我們要保障的目的是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：第一個當然是保障兒少本身。第二個保障是對一般閱聽者來看的話，就是讓他不要有對兒少為一個角色的幻想。"],["黃委員捷：是的，部長剛剛提到兩個部分，我剛剛講的是真實兒少色情的部分，因為真實的兒少色情就是不希望有真的兒童個體受到不法侵害，可是虛擬兒少的部分要保障什麼樣的目的，就是像你剛剛說的第二種類型，就是在一種不特定的兒童個人利益受到侵害的危險。簡單說，如果有些人看了這些照片，你們擔心這些人因為看到這個兒童的裸體圖，他就跑去犯罪，我必須要說這兩種是完全不一樣的法益。一個是非常具體會受到侵害的個人，虛擬兒少是一種可能會發生的危險，就是所謂的社會法益，可是在憲法的層次，如果要討論這些自由是不是會受到限制的時候，會去看他們的比例原則，也就是我現在做了一個行為可能造成多大的危險，我就來訂定多強的管制手段。但是現在的虛擬兒少與犯罪之間並看不出來有沒有具體的因果關係啊！所以我覺得現在這種虛擬兒少，你用刑責來加諸在它身上，真的是大砲打小鳥。","部長，你可以看一下這份研究，這是日本網友做的非常有趣的研究，你看一下那個綠色的，這是日本動漫當年度發行的數量，黃色跟紅色的線是青少年跟兒童被害的數量，如果你真的要去拉因果關係，你會發現說：哇！動漫發行得越來越多，結果犯罪的受害者還越來越少，你可以這樣解讀嗎？不會這樣解讀嘛！就是因為不會這樣解讀，所以我們不會說因為這個創作的數量，或是創作的兒少色情部分，就跟犯罪拉上一定的因果關係，這是非常荒謬的。","動漫工會在前幾週有辦一個論壇，日本有一個非常有名的漫畫家，即純情房東俏房客的作家──赤松健，他現在也是日本眾議員，他就有表達：日本在過去也因為一些有心人士，以這種保護兒童跟青少年之名，希望透過法律來限縮創作自由，但是這樣的主張毫無科學根據。其實以你們現在的主張，你們就認為這些創作者有點像是抽象危險犯，因為你認為他只要畫了，他只要散布了虛擬的兒童裸體圖就犯法了，也不去看是不是真的有增加性犯罪的危險。過去我們刑法上面的抽象危險犯是像什麼？像酒駕。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員捷：因為你酒駕，這個社會真的都認為酒駕造成的風險非常高，這是一種抽象危險犯的概念，可是現在他畫了一個兒童虛擬的裸體圖，就覺得他很危險，他跟酒駕一樣危險，這樣邏輯對嗎？這樣不會太荒謬嗎？當然我覺得比例原則跟法制的問題是一個部分，我最擔心的還是會不會因為這樣影響到我們的文化創作，怎麼說？我們來看下面的第一張圖，不知道部長有沒有看過七龍珠？七龍珠是很多人共同的童年回憶。"],["薛部長瑞元：我有看過。"],["黃委員捷：你有看過，我相信部長也知道裡面其實有一些裸露的畫面，這個經典的漫畫裡面，像是第一個圖，這是烏龍扮成的布馬，這個角色在當時其實也是未成年，他是裸體的兒童；再來第二張圖不知道有沒有看過？亂馬二分之一，也是一個非常經典的漫畫，裡面也是一個未成年的少年，也是有裸露的畫面；再看一下第三張圖，第三張圖叫作「兒時的丘比特跟賽琪」，它是一個法國畫家的作品，那裡面不只是有裸露，而且還有親吻的動作；第四個圖是一位美國天才作家跟畫家叫作亨利·達格，他的作品叫作「薇薇安女孩的故事」，裡面是在講有一群兒童在對抗一群奇幻的生物，因為這群兒童在戰鬥當中，所以你可以看到圖片裡面，他們是受到折磨的、裸體的、被捆綁的。我想問一下以上這四張圖，部長覺得他們有違反兒少性剝削條例嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個條例裡面有兩個構成要件，一個是會引起所謂的猥褻意義，第二個才是兒少，要符合這兩個條件才會構成違法。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。沒錯，要符合兒少，而且要猥褻，猥褻的定義是什麼？有人覺得看了這四張圖，他覺得很猥褻，他是不是就跑去檢舉了，造成的結果……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個當然不能全憑主觀啦！"],["黃委員捷：不好意思，部長請聽我講一下。我知道我剛剛舉的這些例子，不一定真的到最後會被定罪，為什麼我說這是一種扼殺創作自由？是因為有人覺得看了這幾張照片，他就覺得符合兒少而且猥褻的定義，然後在過程當中，他就瘋狂去檢舉，在PTT上面看到，在網路上看到，他覺得看了七龍珠很猥褻，就跑去檢舉了，這樣造成的結果是什麼？如果我現在是一個創作者就會說：好啊！與其每一天這樣提心吊膽，我乾脆不畫了，我乾脆不要創作了，難道你要我每天畫畫的時候，旁邊對照一個範例的圖本，喔！這個姿勢可以，喔！這個表情可以，喔！這個裸露肩膀可以，然後這個不行。他難道要每天這樣對照著，來創作他的漫畫嗎？當你們這樣界定下去，就會造成這樣的結果，所以我不希望的是到最後變成扼殺所有的創作自由，當然真實的兒少是一定要保障的。所以我要講一下我具體的建議，第一個、真實的兒少本來就應該要保護，這些犯罪一定要打擊到底，絕對不可以有任何一個具體的兒童受到傷害，這個是前提，但是因為現在兒少性剝削條例裡面並沒有寫明包括虛擬作品，也就是說這個解釋權在你們身上，所以我希望接下來看可不可以去排除掉虛擬的作品，至少要排除掉這些非逼真的虛擬作品，就是說他畫的這個圖，他不是指涉一個具體的兒童，他不是真的說這個兒童背後代表某一個真實的人會受到傷害，如果可以的話，這些虛擬作品是不是應該要先排除呢？最後，因為兒少權法的有害身心的內容，你們到現在也沒有一個比較明確的指引，導致大家現在人心惶惶，你們是不是應該也要有一些相對應不同等級的管制措施？然後去讓網路社群有一個健全的自治的機制呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然目前來講我們會綜合各界的意見再去做處理，這是需要溝通的。"],["黃委員捷：這件事一定要拜託部長好不好？這件事情非常多年輕人在關心。"],["薛部長瑞元：了解。"],["黃委員捷：懇請部長，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第11號游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1131401_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"150425","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150425","tool":"pyannote","id":"150425-pyannote"},"job_id":"lrN1qYmruNfEZYqZ","queued_at":"2024-06-01 19:48:52","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 19:49:58","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150425"},{"time":"2024-06-01 19:49:59","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee3bab7ca1a8ec3c4a8ac1d636ef3e2fe886695701d999525fc86b1471d7cd93fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-01 19:50:27","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-01 19:50:30","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-06-01 19:50:42","msg":"status: 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\"為什麼會這樣問呢?因為其實現在我們不結婚你收養小孩一樣是被憲法所保障的也就是說你單身是可以進行收養的那以現在台灣相關的規定來看不管你要請產假還是產檢假還是領生育補助領育兒補助都沒有一定要以結婚為前提也就是說我認為不管你有沒有結婚其實憲法都保障你的生育權\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 81.596, \"end\": 82.416, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 82.416, \"end\": 82.836, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 82.836, \"end\": 83.196, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 83.196, \"end\": 83.757, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 83.757, \"end\": 83.957, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 83.957, \"end\": 84.457, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 84.457, \"end\": 84.897, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"婚\", \"start\": 84.897, \"end\": 85.177, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 85.177, 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\"權\"}]}, {\"start\": 107.063, \"end\": 133.746, \"text\": \"那這樣的觀點之下那來討論這個人工生殖我認為其實現在的人工生殖法非常有可能會違憲怎麼說因為其實台灣的人工生殖法只有保障異性戀的不孕夫妻現在是這樣子那這樣其實非常的不合理啊因為我認為現在我們人工生殖法應該也要把同志配偶以及單身的女性放進去才對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 107.063, \"end\": 107.644, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 107.644, \"end\": 108.324, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"觀\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 108.324, \"end\": 108.624, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 108.624, \"end\": 109.345, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 109.345, \"end\": 110.386, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 110.386, \"end\": 110.606, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 110.606, \"end\": 110.846, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 110.846, \"end\": 111.167, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"殖\", \"start\": 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238.544, \"end\": 253.13, \"text\": \"那我還有看到另外一份研究他是準備了一組是51位的單親母母單親的家庭然後另外一組是雙親那他們這個都是就是透過就是捐精的方式懷孕的那在這兩組\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 238.544, \"end\": 238.704, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 238.704, \"end\": 238.964, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 238.964, \"end\": 239.164, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 239.164, \"end\": 239.344, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 239.344, \"end\": 239.504, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 239.504, \"end\": 239.684, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 239.684, \"end\": 239.805, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 239.805, \"end\": 239.885, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"份\", \"start\": 239.885, \"end\": 240.045, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 240.045, \"end\": 240.225, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 240.225, \"end\": 240.425, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 240.425, 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\"end\": 253.13, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"組\"}]}, {\"start\": 254.13, \"end\": 269.692, \"text\": \"的類別當中發現什麼呢?他發現說其實不管你的是哪種形態的家庭你的養育品質都是沒有差異的甚至還發現說單親家庭中母親跟孩子的衝突頻率比雙親家庭還低\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 254.13, \"end\": 254.511, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 254.511, \"end\": 254.891, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 254.891, \"end\": 255.692, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 255.692, \"end\": 256.073, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 256.073, \"end\": 256.353, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 256.353, \"end\": 257.595, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 257.595, \"end\": 258.797, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 258.797, \"end\": 258.917, 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292.291, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 292.291, \"end\": 292.471, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 292.471, \"end\": 293.191, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 293.191, \"end\": 293.411, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 293.411, \"end\": 293.612, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 293.612, \"end\": 293.812, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 293.812, \"end\": 294.773, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 294.773, \"end\": 294.893, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 294.893, \"end\": 295.373, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 295.373, \"end\": 295.633, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 295.633, \"end\": 295.793, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 295.793, \"end\": 295.934, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 295.934, \"end\": 296.174, \"score\": 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514.161, \"end\": 522.147, \"text\": \"那簡單就是說如果有些人看了這些照片你們擔心說這些人因為看到這個兒童的裸體圖他就跑去犯罪\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 514.161, \"end\": 514.601, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 514.601, \"end\": 514.821, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 514.821, \"end\": 515.182, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 515.182, \"end\": 515.382, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 515.382, \"end\": 515.822, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 515.822, \"end\": 516.002, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 516.002, \"end\": 516.162, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 516.162, \"end\": 516.343, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 516.343, \"end\": 516.523, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 516.523, \"end\": 516.743, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 516.743, \"end\": 516.903, \"score\": 1.0}, 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\"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"酒\", \"start\": 653.088, \"end\": 653.108, \"score\": 0.127}, {\"word\": \"駕\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 654.087, \"end\": 672.026, \"text\": \"因為你酒駕就確實大家都認為這個社會都認為說你酒駕真的造成的風險非常高那這個是一種抽象危險犯的概念可是你把現在說我畫了一個兒童虛擬的他的裸體圖然後就覺得他很危險他跟酒駕一樣危險\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 654.087, \"end\": 654.588, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 654.588, \"end\": 654.828, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"酒\", \"start\": 654.828, \"end\": 655.308, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"駕\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 655.308, \"end\": 656.009, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 656.009, \"end\": 656.149, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 656.149, \"end\": 656.329, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 656.329, \"end\": 657.07, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 657.07, 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673.687, \"text\": \"怎麼說?我們來看一下一張圖。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 673.107, \"end\": 673.227, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 673.227, \"end\": 673.327, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 673.327, \"end\": 673.547, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 673.547, \"end\": 673.647, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 673.647, \"end\": 673.667, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 673.667, \"end\": 673.687, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"圖\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 690.339, \"end\": 708.082, \"text\": \"看第一張圖不知道部長有沒有看過七龍珠?這個七龍珠是很多人的共同的童年回憶你有看過那我相信部長也知道裡面其實有一些裸露的畫面那這個經典的漫畫裡面像是第一個這個是烏龍扮成的布馬\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 690.339, \"end\": 690.559, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 690.559, \"end\": 690.639, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 690.639, \"end\": 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935.428, \"end\": 935.448, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,149 --> 00:00:00,309\n黃偉豪、黃國昇擔任議員\n\n2\n00:00:08,803 --> 00:00:35,731\n謝謝,好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長首先我想要請教一下這個人工生殖的議題因為台灣在2019年通過了同婚那在去年我們也把跨國同婚還有同性伴侶的共同收養也通過了那這個其實非常不簡單我覺得這個是民進黨的行政部門還有我們立法院所有的夥伴還有許多團體共同的成果那因為我們非常重視這個性別人權才有今天這個亞洲第一的成果\n\n3\n00:00:36,271 --> 00:00:36,291\n應該是。\n\n4\n00:00:54,247 --> 00:01:20,424\n沒錯,這個是憲法保障的基本權之一因為其實大法官的釋字裡面有提到說要保障個人的主體性、人格發展的自由所以我們需要家庭制度是因為家庭可以提供繁衍、教育、經濟、文化這一些等等社會必要的支持所以大法官他其實是非常肯認這個生育權的那只是說接下來要討論的就是說繁衍的權利到底有沒有必要跟家庭綁在一起\n\n5\n00:01:21,596 --> 00:01:46,003\n為什麼會這樣問呢?因為其實現在我們不結婚你收養小孩一樣是被憲法所保障的也就是說你單身是可以進行收養的那以現在台灣相關的規定來看不管你要請產假還是產檢假還是領生育補助領育兒補助都沒有一定要以結婚為前提也就是說我認為不管你有沒有結婚其實憲法都保障你的生育權\n\n6\n00:01:47,063 --> 00:02:13,746\n那這樣的觀點之下那來討論這個人工生殖我認為其實現在的人工生殖法非常有可能會違憲怎麼說因為其實台灣的人工生殖法只有保障異性戀的不孕夫妻現在是這樣子那這樣其實非常的不合理啊因為我認為現在我們人工生殖法應該也要把同志配偶以及單身的女性放進去才對\n\n7\n00:02:15,447 --> 00:02:41,776\n當然現在的討論是有人認為說社會上會覺得說單身的家庭是不是因為你的資源少一半然後覺得你家庭支持的系統少了一半可能會影響小孩子的認同然後覺得這樣是不正常的家庭觀當然社會上有一些這樣反彈的聲音甚至有些人會覺得說單身女性如果你透過人工生殖來懷孕會刻意的造成單親家庭\n\n8\n00:02:42,856 --> 00:02:51,052\n然後會說因為你的父親缺席了你就違反兒童公約的兒童最佳利益請問院長您同意這些反對的看法嗎?\n\n9\n00:02:52,516 --> 00:03:13,394\n這些確實是有人提出這樣的一個反對不過在人工生殖法的這個討論的過程當中確實有這樣的一個意見但是我們會通盤來就不同的意見來取得最佳的解決方案好謝謝院長我必須說啦其實單親會不會對小孩造成影響不能用感覺不能用偏見來看待\n\n10\n00:03:15,316 --> 00:03:40,053\n那其實我有準備一些研究這些研究其實就把這樣的一個偏見徹底的排除那這個是第一種研究它其實是一種就是非自願單親的形態就是它的研究結果是什麼呢它說對小孩會造成影響的不在於你的身份而是你的經歷也就是說你有沒有因為離婚讓這個家庭然後造成對小孩覺得有陰影\n\n11\n00:03:40,854 --> 00:03:57,724\n或者是說你目睹了父母之間過去有非常多的衝突然後對小孩造成壓力也就是說你的身份是什麼你是不是單親並不是影響小孩心理最重要的因素而是你在這個他成長的過程他是不是經歷了一些讓他造成陰影的事情\n\n12\n00:03:58,544 --> 00:04:13,130\n那我還有看到另外一份研究他是準備了一組是51位的單親母母單親的家庭然後另外一組是雙親那他們這個都是就是透過就是捐精的方式懷孕的那在這兩組\n\n13\n00:04:14,130 --> 00:04:29,692\n的類別當中發現什麼呢?他發現說其實不管你的是哪種形態的家庭你的養育品質都是沒有差異的甚至還發現說單親家庭中母親跟孩子的衝突頻率比雙親家庭還低\n\n14\n00:04:30,473 --> 00:04:58,115\n那他的意思就是說其實你不會因為你是單親媽媽然後你就會特別讓孩子有心理壓力那甚至有另外一個研究也是類似的他是說家庭關係的重要性比家庭的結構來的重要也就是你跟小孩子到底有沒有好好相處有沒有讓他感受到你的關懷遠比到底是怎麼樣類型的家庭結構重要的多所以我認為前面的這些反對的意見根本就不存在\n\n15\n00:04:59,244 --> 00:05:15,045\n重點是你的家庭你的社會可以給予多少支持那這種先入為主說一定要一個爸爸一個媽媽才能對小孩比較好這樣的觀點其實並沒有社會的支持以及目前的研究來支持的\n\n16\n00:05:15,626 --> 00:05:17,427\n目前正在修法的過程當中,我們匯集各界的意見。\n\n17\n00:05:36,892 --> 00:05:51,020\n上一次我們也舉辦了一次公聽會那在27號還會有另外一次的公聽會會來舉行那把這些意見都收集出來之後我們的版本就會送到行政院去\n\n18\n00:05:52,442 --> 00:06:15,362\n我們預計我們院版大概有沒有在什麼樣的時程有辦法送進來立法院那我們可以進到修法的階段因為行政院裡面還會有政委主持的審查會所以在這一個部分的話也許看看這上半年能不能就送到立法院來\n\n19\n00:06:16,522 --> 00:06:44,803\n我們一旦送到行政院來,我們會請政委來加速審查,來出行政院。好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長,希望就是如期的,如你們所說的,上半年我們就把這個人工生殖法送進來。好,那再來我要請教一下部長囉,因為這個最近我接到非常多的網路圈、創作圈的陳情,那這個陳情的內容是什麼呢?是關於這個兒少虛擬的部分。\n\n20\n00:06:45,623 --> 00:07:02,783\n那看一下這個iWIN的爭議這個爭議它的起源其實是衛福部在去年10月的時候發了一個函式函式裡面說什麼呢兒少性剝削的條例有包括虛擬的兒少性影像然後呢這個函式發了之後12月\n\n21\n00:07:03,564 --> 00:07:29,221\nIWIN就接到檢舉了說PTT上面有人在散播這個虛擬兒少的色情圖片然後IWIN之後呢他就判斷說這個有違反兒少性剝削而且違反兒少權法結果網路上的創作圈就爆炸了我們就接到一大堆陳情說哇所以現在我們的控制是到什麼程度這其實大家比較多的是擔憂是覺得說在我們的\n\n22\n00:07:30,222 --> 00:07:49,057\n具體的範圍不明的情況下,大家不知道該如何示好。首先我先請問一下部長,現在不管是我們兒少性剝削條例還有兒少權法裡面,針對真實兒少的色情我們要保障的目的是什麼?\n\n23\n00:07:50,162 --> 00:08:08,562\n當然第一個是保障這個兒少本身。第二個當然保障就是說對一般的約聽者來看的話,那就是讓他不要有對這樣子的兒少為一個角色的那樣子的一個幻想。\n\n24\n00:08:09,687 --> 00:08:33,110\n是的部長其實剛提到兩個部分我剛講其實是說真實兒少色情的部分因為你真實的兒少色情就是不希望說有真的兒童的個體受到不法的侵害可是虛擬兒少的部分要保障什麼樣的目的就是像你剛說的第二種類型就是在一種不特定的兒童個人利益受到侵害的危險\n\n25\n00:08:34,161 --> 00:08:42,147\n那簡單就是說如果有些人看了這些照片你們擔心說這些人因為看到這個兒童的裸體圖他就跑去犯罪\n\n26\n00:08:43,154 --> 00:09:09,796\n我必須要說這兩種是完全不一樣的法義一個是非常具體會受到侵害的個人那虛擬兒少是一種可能會發生的危險就是所謂的社會法義可是我們在憲法的層次如果要討論說這些自由是不是會受到限制的時候會去看他們的比例原則嗎就是說我現在做了一個行為他可能造成多大的危險我就來定多強的管制手段\n\n27\n00:09:10,276 --> 00:09:25,450\n但是現在的虛擬兒少跟犯罪之間並看不出來有沒有具體的因果關係啊。所以我覺得現在這種虛擬兒少你用刑責啦去刻意來加註在他身上真的是大砲打小鳥。\n\n28\n00:09:26,511 --> 00:09:41,484\n部長你可以看一下我們一個這個研究這個是日本網友有做一個非常有趣的研究你看一下那個綠色的它就是日本動漫當年度發行的數量然後黃色跟紅色的是就是青少年跟兒童被害的數量\n\n29\n00:09:42,245 --> 00:10:06,310\n如果你真的要去拉因果關係的話你會發現說哇動漫發行的越來越多結果犯罪的受害者還越來越少欸你可以這樣解讀嗎?不會這樣解讀嗎?就是因為不會這樣解讀所以我們不會說你因為這個創作的數量或是創作的兒少色情的部分然後就去跟犯罪拉上一定的因果關係這是非常荒謬的\n\n30\n00:10:07,310 --> 00:10:31,100\n那在動漫公會其實前幾週有辦一個論壇那日本有一個非常有名的漫畫家他是純情房東翹房客的作家赤松健那他現在也是日本的眾議員那他就有表達說日本在過去也因為一些有心人士用這種保護兒童跟青少年之名希望透過法律來限縮他的創作自由但是這樣的主張毫無科學根據\n\n31\n00:10:32,521 --> 00:10:53,108\n那其實以你們現在的主張啊,你們就認為說這些創作者有點像是抽象危險犯,因為你認為他只要畫了,他只要占卜了這個虛擬的兒童裸體圖,你就犯法了。然後也不去問他你是不是真的有增加性犯罪的危險。那過去我們刑法上面的抽象危險犯是像什麼?像酒駕。\n\n32\n00:10:54,087 --> 00:11:12,026\n因為你酒駕就確實大家都認為這個社會都認為說你酒駕真的造成的風險非常高那這個是一種抽象危險犯的概念可是你把現在說我畫了一個兒童虛擬的他的裸體圖然後就覺得他很危險他跟酒駕一樣危險\n\n33\n00:11:13,107 --> 00:11:13,687\n怎麼說?我們來看一下一張圖。\n\n34\n00:11:30,339 --> 00:11:48,082\n看第一張圖不知道部長有沒有看過七龍珠?這個七龍珠是很多人的共同的童年回憶你有看過那我相信部長也知道裡面其實有一些裸露的畫面那這個經典的漫畫裡面像是第一個這個是烏龍扮成的布馬\n\n35\n00:11:48,703 --> 00:12:06,737\n那這個角色在當時候其實也是未成年喔他是裸體的兒童喔那再來第二張不知道有沒有看過亂馬二分之一也是一個非常經典的漫畫裡面也是一個未成年的少年然後他也是有裸露的畫面\n\n36\n00:12:07,658 --> 00:12:35,353\n再看一下第三張圖這第三張圖是叫做兒時的丘比特跟賽奇他是一個法國畫家的作品那裡面不只是有裸露而且還有親吻的動作那第四個是一個美國的天才的作家跟畫家叫做亨利達格他的作品叫做維安女孩的故事裡面是在講說有一群兒童他在對抗一群奇幻的生物那這群兒童因為他們在戰鬥當中所以你可以看到照圖片裡面\n\n37\n00:12:36,474 --> 00:12:58,365\n他們是受到折磨的然後裸體的然後被捆綁的那我想問一下以上這四張圖部長覺得他們有違反兒少性剝削條例嗎?這個條例裡面有兩個構成要件那一個就是會引起所謂的猥褻的這樣子的依債第二個才是兒少要符合這兩個才會構成說違法\n\n38\n00:13:00,666 --> 00:13:18,747\n好,謝謝部長。沒錯,要符合兒少而且要猥褻。那猥褻的定義是什麼?有人覺得他看了這四張圖,他覺得很猥褻,那他是不是就跑去檢舉了?那造成的結果,不好意思部長,請我講一下。我知道說我剛剛舉的這些例子不一定真的到最後會被定罪啦。\n\n39\n00:13:19,227 --> 00:13:39,680\n只是說這個為什麼我說這是一種扼殺創作自由是因為有人覺得看了這幾張照片他就覺得符合耳哨而且猥褻的定義然後呢他在過程當中他就瘋狂去檢舉他在PTC上面看到他在網絡上看到他覺得他看了青龍珠很猥褻然後他就跑去檢舉了那這樣造成的結果是什麼\n\n40\n00:13:40,120 --> 00:14:03,410\n如果現在是一個創作者他就是說好啊與其這樣提心吊膽每一天我乾脆不畫了我乾脆不要創作了因為你難道你要我每天畫畫的時候我旁邊對照一個範例的圖本說哦這個姿勢可以哦這個表情可以哦這個裸露肩膀可以然後這個不行他難道要每天這樣對照著來看來創作他的漫畫嗎\n\n41\n00:14:05,011 --> 00:14:22,086\n這個其實當你們這樣子界定下去就會造成這樣的結果所以我不希望的是到最後變成扼殺所有的創作自由那當然真實的兒少是一定要保障的所以我要講一下我具體的建議第一個真實的兒少本來就應該要保護\n\n42\n00:14:23,066 --> 00:14:49,808\n一定要,這些犯罪一定要打擊到底。絕對不可以有任何一個具體的兒童受到傷害。這個是前提。但是因為現在兒少性剝去條例裡面並沒有寫明說包括虛擬作品。也就是說這個解釋權在你們身上。所以我希望接下來看可不可以去排除掉虛擬的作品。那至少要排除掉這些非逼真的虛擬作品。就是說他畫的這個圖他不是指涉一個具體的兒童。\n\n43\n00:14:50,168 --> 00:15:13,335\n他不是真的說這個兒童背後代表某一個真實的人會受到傷害那如果可以的話這樣的這些虛擬作品是不是應該要先排除呢那最後因為兒少全法的有害身心的內容你們到現在也沒有一個比較明確的指引導致大家現在人心惶惶你們是不是應該也要有一些相對應不同等級的管制措施\n\n44\n00:15:34,187 --> 00:15:35,448\n謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第11號游浩委員質詢。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n149\t309\t黃偉豪、黃國昇擔任議員\n8803\t35731\t謝謝,好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長首先我想要請教一下這個人工生殖的議題因為台灣在2019年通過了同婚那在去年我們也把跨國同婚還有同性伴侶的共同收養也通過了那這個其實非常不簡單我覺得這個是民進黨的行政部門還有我們立法院所有的夥伴還有許多團體共同的成果那因為我們非常重視這個性別人權才有今天這個亞洲第一的成果\n36271\t36291\t應該是。\n54247\t80424\t沒錯,這個是憲法保障的基本權之一因為其實大法官的釋字裡面有提到說要保障個人的主體性、人格發展的自由所以我們需要家庭制度是因為家庭可以提供繁衍、教育、經濟、文化這一些等等社會必要的支持所以大法官他其實是非常肯認這個生育權的那只是說接下來要討論的就是說繁衍的權利到底有沒有必要跟家庭綁在一起\n81596\t106003\t為什麼會這樣問呢?因為其實現在我們不結婚你收養小孩一樣是被憲法所保障的也就是說你單身是可以進行收養的那以現在台灣相關的規定來看不管你要請產假還是產檢假還是領生育補助領育兒補助都沒有一定要以結婚為前提也就是說我認為不管你有沒有結婚其實憲法都保障你的生育權\n107063\t133746\t那這樣的觀點之下那來討論這個人工生殖我認為其實現在的人工生殖法非常有可能會違憲怎麼說因為其實台灣的人工生殖法只有保障異性戀的不孕夫妻現在是這樣子那這樣其實非常的不合理啊因為我認為現在我們人工生殖法應該也要把同志配偶以及單身的女性放進去才對\n135447\t161776\t當然現在的討論是有人認為說社會上會覺得說單身的家庭是不是因為你的資源少一半然後覺得你家庭支持的系統少了一半可能會影響小孩子的認同然後覺得這樣是不正常的家庭觀當然社會上有一些這樣反彈的聲音甚至有些人會覺得說單身女性如果你透過人工生殖來懷孕會刻意的造成單親家庭\n162856\t171052\t然後會說因為你的父親缺席了你就違反兒童公約的兒童最佳利益請問院長您同意這些反對的看法嗎?\n172516\t193394\t這些確實是有人提出這樣的一個反對不過在人工生殖法的這個討論的過程當中確實有這樣的一個意見但是我們會通盤來就不同的意見來取得最佳的解決方案好謝謝院長我必須說啦其實單親會不會對小孩造成影響不能用感覺不能用偏見來看待\n195316\t220053\t那其實我有準備一些研究這些研究其實就把這樣的一個偏見徹底的排除那這個是第一種研究它其實是一種就是非自願單親的形態就是它的研究結果是什麼呢它說對小孩會造成影響的不在於你的身份而是你的經歷也就是說你有沒有因為離婚讓這個家庭然後造成對小孩覺得有陰影\n220854\t237724\t或者是說你目睹了父母之間過去有非常多的衝突然後對小孩造成壓力也就是說你的身份是什麼你是不是單親並不是影響小孩心理最重要的因素而是你在這個他成長的過程他是不是經歷了一些讓他造成陰影的事情\n238544\t253130\t那我還有看到另外一份研究他是準備了一組是51位的單親母母單親的家庭然後另外一組是雙親那他們這個都是就是透過就是捐精的方式懷孕的那在這兩組\n254130\t269692\t的類別當中發現什麼呢?他發現說其實不管你的是哪種形態的家庭你的養育品質都是沒有差異的甚至還發現說單親家庭中母親跟孩子的衝突頻率比雙親家庭還低\n270473\t298115\t那他的意思就是說其實你不會因為你是單親媽媽然後你就會特別讓孩子有心理壓力那甚至有另外一個研究也是類似的他是說家庭關係的重要性比家庭的結構來的重要也就是你跟小孩子到底有沒有好好相處有沒有讓他感受到你的關懷遠比到底是怎麼樣類型的家庭結構重要的多所以我認為前面的這些反對的意見根本就不存在\n299244\t315045\t重點是你的家庭你的社會可以給予多少支持那這種先入為主說一定要一個爸爸一個媽媽才能對小孩比較好這樣的觀點其實並沒有社會的支持以及目前的研究來支持的\n315626\t317427\t目前正在修法的過程當中,我們匯集各界的意見。\n336892\t351020\t上一次我們也舉辦了一次公聽會那在27號還會有另外一次的公聽會會來舉行那把這些意見都收集出來之後我們的版本就會送到行政院去\n352442\t375362\t我們預計我們院版大概有沒有在什麼樣的時程有辦法送進來立法院那我們可以進到修法的階段因為行政院裡面還會有政委主持的審查會所以在這一個部分的話也許看看這上半年能不能就送到立法院來\n376522\t404803\t我們一旦送到行政院來,我們會請政委來加速審查,來出行政院。好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長,希望就是如期的,如你們所說的,上半年我們就把這個人工生殖法送進來。好,那再來我要請教一下部長囉,因為這個最近我接到非常多的網路圈、創作圈的陳情,那這個陳情的內容是什麼呢?是關於這個兒少虛擬的部分。\n405623\t422783\t那看一下這個iWIN的爭議這個爭議它的起源其實是衛福部在去年10月的時候發了一個函式函式裡面說什麼呢兒少性剝削的條例有包括虛擬的兒少性影像然後呢這個函式發了之後12月\n423564\t449221\tIWIN就接到檢舉了說PTT上面有人在散播這個虛擬兒少的色情圖片然後IWIN之後呢他就判斷說這個有違反兒少性剝削而且違反兒少權法結果網路上的創作圈就爆炸了我們就接到一大堆陳情說哇所以現在我們的控制是到什麼程度這其實大家比較多的是擔憂是覺得說在我們的\n450222\t469057\t具體的範圍不明的情況下,大家不知道該如何示好。首先我先請問一下部長,現在不管是我們兒少性剝削條例還有兒少權法裡面,針對真實兒少的色情我們要保障的目的是什麼?\n470162\t488562\t當然第一個是保障這個兒少本身。第二個當然保障就是說對一般的約聽者來看的話,那就是讓他不要有對這樣子的兒少為一個角色的那樣子的一個幻想。\n489687\t513110\t是的部長其實剛提到兩個部分我剛講其實是說真實兒少色情的部分因為你真實的兒少色情就是不希望說有真的兒童的個體受到不法的侵害可是虛擬兒少的部分要保障什麼樣的目的就是像你剛說的第二種類型就是在一種不特定的兒童個人利益受到侵害的危險\n514161\t522147\t那簡單就是說如果有些人看了這些照片你們擔心說這些人因為看到這個兒童的裸體圖他就跑去犯罪\n523154\t549796\t我必須要說這兩種是完全不一樣的法義一個是非常具體會受到侵害的個人那虛擬兒少是一種可能會發生的危險就是所謂的社會法義可是我們在憲法的層次如果要討論說這些自由是不是會受到限制的時候會去看他們的比例原則嗎就是說我現在做了一個行為他可能造成多大的危險我就來定多強的管制手段\n550276\t565450\t但是現在的虛擬兒少跟犯罪之間並看不出來有沒有具體的因果關係啊。所以我覺得現在這種虛擬兒少你用刑責啦去刻意來加註在他身上真的是大砲打小鳥。\n566511\t581484\t部長你可以看一下我們一個這個研究這個是日本網友有做一個非常有趣的研究你看一下那個綠色的它就是日本動漫當年度發行的數量然後黃色跟紅色的是就是青少年跟兒童被害的數量\n582245\t606310\t如果你真的要去拉因果關係的話你會發現說哇動漫發行的越來越多結果犯罪的受害者還越來越少欸你可以這樣解讀嗎?不會這樣解讀嗎?就是因為不會這樣解讀所以我們不會說你因為這個創作的數量或是創作的兒少色情的部分然後就去跟犯罪拉上一定的因果關係這是非常荒謬的\n607310\t631100\t那在動漫公會其實前幾週有辦一個論壇那日本有一個非常有名的漫畫家他是純情房東翹房客的作家赤松健那他現在也是日本的眾議員那他就有表達說日本在過去也因為一些有心人士用這種保護兒童跟青少年之名希望透過法律來限縮他的創作自由但是這樣的主張毫無科學根據\n632521\t653108\t那其實以你們現在的主張啊,你們就認為說這些創作者有點像是抽象危險犯,因為你認為他只要畫了,他只要占卜了這個虛擬的兒童裸體圖,你就犯法了。然後也不去問他你是不是真的有增加性犯罪的危險。那過去我們刑法上面的抽象危險犯是像什麼?像酒駕。\n654087\t672026\t因為你酒駕就確實大家都認為這個社會都認為說你酒駕真的造成的風險非常高那這個是一種抽象危險犯的概念可是你把現在說我畫了一個兒童虛擬的他的裸體圖然後就覺得他很危險他跟酒駕一樣危險\n673107\t673687\t怎麼說?我們來看一下一張圖。\n690339\t708082\t看第一張圖不知道部長有沒有看過七龍珠?這個七龍珠是很多人的共同的童年回憶你有看過那我相信部長也知道裡面其實有一些裸露的畫面那這個經典的漫畫裡面像是第一個這個是烏龍扮成的布馬\n708703\t726737\t那這個角色在當時候其實也是未成年喔他是裸體的兒童喔那再來第二張不知道有沒有看過亂馬二分之一也是一個非常經典的漫畫裡面也是一個未成年的少年然後他也是有裸露的畫面\n727658\t755353\t再看一下第三張圖這第三張圖是叫做兒時的丘比特跟賽奇他是一個法國畫家的作品那裡面不只是有裸露而且還有親吻的動作那第四個是一個美國的天才的作家跟畫家叫做亨利達格他的作品叫做維安女孩的故事裡面是在講說有一群兒童他在對抗一群奇幻的生物那這群兒童因為他們在戰鬥當中所以你可以看到照圖片裡面\n756474\t778365\t他們是受到折磨的然後裸體的然後被捆綁的那我想問一下以上這四張圖部長覺得他們有違反兒少性剝削條例嗎?這個條例裡面有兩個構成要件那一個就是會引起所謂的猥褻的這樣子的依債第二個才是兒少要符合這兩個才會構成說違法\n780666\t798747\t好,謝謝部長。沒錯,要符合兒少而且要猥褻。那猥褻的定義是什麼?有人覺得他看了這四張圖,他覺得很猥褻,那他是不是就跑去檢舉了?那造成的結果,不好意思部長,請我講一下。我知道說我剛剛舉的這些例子不一定真的到最後會被定罪啦。\n799227\t819680\t只是說這個為什麼我說這是一種扼殺創作自由是因為有人覺得看了這幾張照片他就覺得符合耳哨而且猥褻的定義然後呢他在過程當中他就瘋狂去檢舉他在PTC上面看到他在網絡上看到他覺得他看了青龍珠很猥褻然後他就跑去檢舉了那這樣造成的結果是什麼\n820120\t843410\t如果現在是一個創作者他就是說好啊與其這樣提心吊膽每一天我乾脆不畫了我乾脆不要創作了因為你難道你要我每天畫畫的時候我旁邊對照一個範例的圖本說哦這個姿勢可以哦這個表情可以哦這個裸露肩膀可以然後這個不行他難道要每天這樣對照著來看來創作他的漫畫嗎\n845011\t862086\t這個其實當你們這樣子界定下去就會造成這樣的結果所以我不希望的是到最後變成扼殺所有的創作自由那當然真實的兒少是一定要保障的所以我要講一下我具體的建議第一個真實的兒少本來就應該要保護\n863066\t889808\t一定要,這些犯罪一定要打擊到底。絕對不可以有任何一個具體的兒童受到傷害。這個是前提。但是因為現在兒少性剝去條例裡面並沒有寫明說包括虛擬作品。也就是說這個解釋權在你們身上。所以我希望接下來看可不可以去排除掉虛擬的作品。那至少要排除掉這些非逼真的虛擬作品。就是說他畫的這個圖他不是指涉一個具體的兒童。\n890168\t913335\t他不是真的說這個兒童背後代表某一個真實的人會受到傷害那如果可以的話這樣的這些虛擬作品是不是應該要先排除呢那最後因為兒少全法的有害身心的內容你們到現在也沒有一個比較明確的指引導致大家現在人心惶惶你們是不是應該也要有一些相對應不同等級的管制措施\n934187\t935448\t謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第11號游浩委員質詢。\n","txt":"黃偉豪、黃國昇擔任議員\n謝謝,好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長首先我想要請教一下這個人工生殖的議題因為台灣在2019年通過了同婚那在去年我們也把跨國同婚還有同性伴侶的共同收養也通過了那這個其實非常不簡單我覺得這個是民進黨的行政部門還有我們立法院所有的夥伴還有許多團體共同的成果那因為我們非常重視這個性別人權才有今天這個亞洲第一的成果\n應該是。\n沒錯,這個是憲法保障的基本權之一因為其實大法官的釋字裡面有提到說要保障個人的主體性、人格發展的自由所以我們需要家庭制度是因為家庭可以提供繁衍、教育、經濟、文化這一些等等社會必要的支持所以大法官他其實是非常肯認這個生育權的那只是說接下來要討論的就是說繁衍的權利到底有沒有必要跟家庭綁在一起\n為什麼會這樣問呢?因為其實現在我們不結婚你收養小孩一樣是被憲法所保障的也就是說你單身是可以進行收養的那以現在台灣相關的規定來看不管你要請產假還是產檢假還是領生育補助領育兒補助都沒有一定要以結婚為前提也就是說我認為不管你有沒有結婚其實憲法都保障你的生育權\n那這樣的觀點之下那來討論這個人工生殖我認為其實現在的人工生殖法非常有可能會違憲怎麼說因為其實台灣的人工生殖法只有保障異性戀的不孕夫妻現在是這樣子那這樣其實非常的不合理啊因為我認為現在我們人工生殖法應該也要把同志配偶以及單身的女性放進去才對\n當然現在的討論是有人認為說社會上會覺得說單身的家庭是不是因為你的資源少一半然後覺得你家庭支持的系統少了一半可能會影響小孩子的認同然後覺得這樣是不正常的家庭觀當然社會上有一些這樣反彈的聲音甚至有些人會覺得說單身女性如果你透過人工生殖來懷孕會刻意的造成單親家庭\n然後會說因為你的父親缺席了你就違反兒童公約的兒童最佳利益請問院長您同意這些反對的看法嗎?\n這些確實是有人提出這樣的一個反對不過在人工生殖法的這個討論的過程當中確實有這樣的一個意見但是我們會通盤來就不同的意見來取得最佳的解決方案好謝謝院長我必須說啦其實單親會不會對小孩造成影響不能用感覺不能用偏見來看待\n那其實我有準備一些研究這些研究其實就把這樣的一個偏見徹底的排除那這個是第一種研究它其實是一種就是非自願單親的形態就是它的研究結果是什麼呢它說對小孩會造成影響的不在於你的身份而是你的經歷也就是說你有沒有因為離婚讓這個家庭然後造成對小孩覺得有陰影\n或者是說你目睹了父母之間過去有非常多的衝突然後對小孩造成壓力也就是說你的身份是什麼你是不是單親並不是影響小孩心理最重要的因素而是你在這個他成長的過程他是不是經歷了一些讓他造成陰影的事情\n那我還有看到另外一份研究他是準備了一組是51位的單親母母單親的家庭然後另外一組是雙親那他們這個都是就是透過就是捐精的方式懷孕的那在這兩組\n的類別當中發現什麼呢?他發現說其實不管你的是哪種形態的家庭你的養育品質都是沒有差異的甚至還發現說單親家庭中母親跟孩子的衝突頻率比雙親家庭還低\n那他的意思就是說其實你不會因為你是單親媽媽然後你就會特別讓孩子有心理壓力那甚至有另外一個研究也是類似的他是說家庭關係的重要性比家庭的結構來的重要也就是你跟小孩子到底有沒有好好相處有沒有讓他感受到你的關懷遠比到底是怎麼樣類型的家庭結構重要的多所以我認為前面的這些反對的意見根本就不存在\n重點是你的家庭你的社會可以給予多少支持那這種先入為主說一定要一個爸爸一個媽媽才能對小孩比較好這樣的觀點其實並沒有社會的支持以及目前的研究來支持的\n目前正在修法的過程當中,我們匯集各界的意見。\n上一次我們也舉辦了一次公聽會那在27號還會有另外一次的公聽會會來舉行那把這些意見都收集出來之後我們的版本就會送到行政院去\n我們預計我們院版大概有沒有在什麼樣的時程有辦法送進來立法院那我們可以進到修法的階段因為行政院裡面還會有政委主持的審查會所以在這一個部分的話也許看看這上半年能不能就送到立法院來\n我們一旦送到行政院來,我們會請政委來加速審查,來出行政院。好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長,希望就是如期的,如你們所說的,上半年我們就把這個人工生殖法送進來。好,那再來我要請教一下部長囉,因為這個最近我接到非常多的網路圈、創作圈的陳情,那這個陳情的內容是什麼呢?是關於這個兒少虛擬的部分。\n那看一下這個iWIN的爭議這個爭議它的起源其實是衛福部在去年10月的時候發了一個函式函式裡面說什麼呢兒少性剝削的條例有包括虛擬的兒少性影像然後呢這個函式發了之後12月\nIWIN就接到檢舉了說PTT上面有人在散播這個虛擬兒少的色情圖片然後IWIN之後呢他就判斷說這個有違反兒少性剝削而且違反兒少權法結果網路上的創作圈就爆炸了我們就接到一大堆陳情說哇所以現在我們的控制是到什麼程度這其實大家比較多的是擔憂是覺得說在我們的\n具體的範圍不明的情況下,大家不知道該如何示好。首先我先請問一下部長,現在不管是我們兒少性剝削條例還有兒少權法裡面,針對真實兒少的色情我們要保障的目的是什麼?\n當然第一個是保障這個兒少本身。第二個當然保障就是說對一般的約聽者來看的話,那就是讓他不要有對這樣子的兒少為一個角色的那樣子的一個幻想。\n是的部長其實剛提到兩個部分我剛講其實是說真實兒少色情的部分因為你真實的兒少色情就是不希望說有真的兒童的個體受到不法的侵害可是虛擬兒少的部分要保障什麼樣的目的就是像你剛說的第二種類型就是在一種不特定的兒童個人利益受到侵害的危險\n那簡單就是說如果有些人看了這些照片你們擔心說這些人因為看到這個兒童的裸體圖他就跑去犯罪\n我必須要說這兩種是完全不一樣的法義一個是非常具體會受到侵害的個人那虛擬兒少是一種可能會發生的危險就是所謂的社會法義可是我們在憲法的層次如果要討論說這些自由是不是會受到限制的時候會去看他們的比例原則嗎就是說我現在做了一個行為他可能造成多大的危險我就來定多強的管制手段\n但是現在的虛擬兒少跟犯罪之間並看不出來有沒有具體的因果關係啊。所以我覺得現在這種虛擬兒少你用刑責啦去刻意來加註在他身上真的是大砲打小鳥。\n部長你可以看一下我們一個這個研究這個是日本網友有做一個非常有趣的研究你看一下那個綠色的它就是日本動漫當年度發行的數量然後黃色跟紅色的是就是青少年跟兒童被害的數量\n如果你真的要去拉因果關係的話你會發現說哇動漫發行的越來越多結果犯罪的受害者還越來越少欸你可以這樣解讀嗎?不會這樣解讀嗎?就是因為不會這樣解讀所以我們不會說你因為這個創作的數量或是創作的兒少色情的部分然後就去跟犯罪拉上一定的因果關係這是非常荒謬的\n那在動漫公會其實前幾週有辦一個論壇那日本有一個非常有名的漫畫家他是純情房東翹房客的作家赤松健那他現在也是日本的眾議員那他就有表達說日本在過去也因為一些有心人士用這種保護兒童跟青少年之名希望透過法律來限縮他的創作自由但是這樣的主張毫無科學根據\n那其實以你們現在的主張啊,你們就認為說這些創作者有點像是抽象危險犯,因為你認為他只要畫了,他只要占卜了這個虛擬的兒童裸體圖,你就犯法了。然後也不去問他你是不是真的有增加性犯罪的危險。那過去我們刑法上面的抽象危險犯是像什麼?像酒駕。\n因為你酒駕就確實大家都認為這個社會都認為說你酒駕真的造成的風險非常高那這個是一種抽象危險犯的概念可是你把現在說我畫了一個兒童虛擬的他的裸體圖然後就覺得他很危險他跟酒駕一樣危險\n怎麼說?我們來看一下一張圖。\n看第一張圖不知道部長有沒有看過七龍珠?這個七龍珠是很多人的共同的童年回憶你有看過那我相信部長也知道裡面其實有一些裸露的畫面那這個經典的漫畫裡面像是第一個這個是烏龍扮成的布馬\n那這個角色在當時候其實也是未成年喔他是裸體的兒童喔那再來第二張不知道有沒有看過亂馬二分之一也是一個非常經典的漫畫裡面也是一個未成年的少年然後他也是有裸露的畫面\n再看一下第三張圖這第三張圖是叫做兒時的丘比特跟賽奇他是一個法國畫家的作品那裡面不只是有裸露而且還有親吻的動作那第四個是一個美國的天才的作家跟畫家叫做亨利達格他的作品叫做維安女孩的故事裡面是在講說有一群兒童他在對抗一群奇幻的生物那這群兒童因為他們在戰鬥當中所以你可以看到照圖片裡面\n他們是受到折磨的然後裸體的然後被捆綁的那我想問一下以上這四張圖部長覺得他們有違反兒少性剝削條例嗎?這個條例裡面有兩個構成要件那一個就是會引起所謂的猥褻的這樣子的依債第二個才是兒少要符合這兩個才會構成說違法\n好,謝謝部長。沒錯,要符合兒少而且要猥褻。那猥褻的定義是什麼?有人覺得他看了這四張圖,他覺得很猥褻,那他是不是就跑去檢舉了?那造成的結果,不好意思部長,請我講一下。我知道說我剛剛舉的這些例子不一定真的到最後會被定罪啦。\n只是說這個為什麼我說這是一種扼殺創作自由是因為有人覺得看了這幾張照片他就覺得符合耳哨而且猥褻的定義然後呢他在過程當中他就瘋狂去檢舉他在PTC上面看到他在網絡上看到他覺得他看了青龍珠很猥褻然後他就跑去檢舉了那這樣造成的結果是什麼\n如果現在是一個創作者他就是說好啊與其這樣提心吊膽每一天我乾脆不畫了我乾脆不要創作了因為你難道你要我每天畫畫的時候我旁邊對照一個範例的圖本說哦這個姿勢可以哦這個表情可以哦這個裸露肩膀可以然後這個不行他難道要每天這樣對照著來看來創作他的漫畫嗎\n這個其實當你們這樣子界定下去就會造成這樣的結果所以我不希望的是到最後變成扼殺所有的創作自由那當然真實的兒少是一定要保障的所以我要講一下我具體的建議第一個真實的兒少本來就應該要保護\n一定要,這些犯罪一定要打擊到底。絕對不可以有任何一個具體的兒童受到傷害。這個是前提。但是因為現在兒少性剝去條例裡面並沒有寫明說包括虛擬作品。也就是說這個解釋權在你們身上。所以我希望接下來看可不可以去排除掉虛擬的作品。那至少要排除掉這些非逼真的虛擬作品。就是說他畫的這個圖他不是指涉一個具體的兒童。\n他不是真的說這個兒童背後代表某一個真實的人會受到傷害那如果可以的話這樣的這些虛擬作品是不是應該要先排除呢那最後因為兒少全法的有害身心的內容你們到現在也沒有一個比較明確的指引導致大家現在人心惶惶你們是不是應該也要有一些相對應不同等級的管制措施\n謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第11號游浩委員質詢。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.149 --> 00:00.309\n黃偉豪、黃國昇擔任議員\n\n00:08.803 --> 00:35.731\n謝謝,好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長首先我想要請教一下這個人工生殖的議題因為台灣在2019年通過了同婚那在去年我們也把跨國同婚還有同性伴侶的共同收養也通過了那這個其實非常不簡單我覺得這個是民進黨的行政部門還有我們立法院所有的夥伴還有許多團體共同的成果那因為我們非常重視這個性別人權才有今天這個亞洲第一的成果\n\n00:36.271 --> 00:36.291\n應該是。\n\n00:54.247 --> 01:20.424\n沒錯,這個是憲法保障的基本權之一因為其實大法官的釋字裡面有提到說要保障個人的主體性、人格發展的自由所以我們需要家庭制度是因為家庭可以提供繁衍、教育、經濟、文化這一些等等社會必要的支持所以大法官他其實是非常肯認這個生育權的那只是說接下來要討論的就是說繁衍的權利到底有沒有必要跟家庭綁在一起\n\n01:21.596 --> 01:46.003\n為什麼會這樣問呢?因為其實現在我們不結婚你收養小孩一樣是被憲法所保障的也就是說你單身是可以進行收養的那以現在台灣相關的規定來看不管你要請產假還是產檢假還是領生育補助領育兒補助都沒有一定要以結婚為前提也就是說我認為不管你有沒有結婚其實憲法都保障你的生育權\n\n01:47.063 --> 02:13.746\n那這樣的觀點之下那來討論這個人工生殖我認為其實現在的人工生殖法非常有可能會違憲怎麼說因為其實台灣的人工生殖法只有保障異性戀的不孕夫妻現在是這樣子那這樣其實非常的不合理啊因為我認為現在我們人工生殖法應該也要把同志配偶以及單身的女性放進去才對\n\n02:15.447 --> 02:41.776\n當然現在的討論是有人認為說社會上會覺得說單身的家庭是不是因為你的資源少一半然後覺得你家庭支持的系統少了一半可能會影響小孩子的認同然後覺得這樣是不正常的家庭觀當然社會上有一些這樣反彈的聲音甚至有些人會覺得說單身女性如果你透過人工生殖來懷孕會刻意的造成單親家庭\n\n02:42.856 --> 02:51.052\n然後會說因為你的父親缺席了你就違反兒童公約的兒童最佳利益請問院長您同意這些反對的看法嗎?\n\n02:52.516 --> 03:13.394\n這些確實是有人提出這樣的一個反對不過在人工生殖法的這個討論的過程當中確實有這樣的一個意見但是我們會通盤來就不同的意見來取得最佳的解決方案好謝謝院長我必須說啦其實單親會不會對小孩造成影響不能用感覺不能用偏見來看待\n\n03:15.316 --> 03:40.053\n那其實我有準備一些研究這些研究其實就把這樣的一個偏見徹底的排除那這個是第一種研究它其實是一種就是非自願單親的形態就是它的研究結果是什麼呢它說對小孩會造成影響的不在於你的身份而是你的經歷也就是說你有沒有因為離婚讓這個家庭然後造成對小孩覺得有陰影\n\n03:40.854 --> 03:57.724\n或者是說你目睹了父母之間過去有非常多的衝突然後對小孩造成壓力也就是說你的身份是什麼你是不是單親並不是影響小孩心理最重要的因素而是你在這個他成長的過程他是不是經歷了一些讓他造成陰影的事情\n\n03:58.544 --> 04:13.130\n那我還有看到另外一份研究他是準備了一組是51位的單親母母單親的家庭然後另外一組是雙親那他們這個都是就是透過就是捐精的方式懷孕的那在這兩組\n\n04:14.130 --> 04:29.692\n的類別當中發現什麼呢?他發現說其實不管你的是哪種形態的家庭你的養育品質都是沒有差異的甚至還發現說單親家庭中母親跟孩子的衝突頻率比雙親家庭還低\n\n04:30.473 --> 04:58.115\n那他的意思就是說其實你不會因為你是單親媽媽然後你就會特別讓孩子有心理壓力那甚至有另外一個研究也是類似的他是說家庭關係的重要性比家庭的結構來的重要也就是你跟小孩子到底有沒有好好相處有沒有讓他感受到你的關懷遠比到底是怎麼樣類型的家庭結構重要的多所以我認為前面的這些反對的意見根本就不存在\n\n04:59.244 --> 05:15.045\n重點是你的家庭你的社會可以給予多少支持那這種先入為主說一定要一個爸爸一個媽媽才能對小孩比較好這樣的觀點其實並沒有社會的支持以及目前的研究來支持的\n\n05:15.626 --> 05:17.427\n目前正在修法的過程當中,我們匯集各界的意見。\n\n05:36.892 --> 05:51.020\n上一次我們也舉辦了一次公聽會那在27號還會有另外一次的公聽會會來舉行那把這些意見都收集出來之後我們的版本就會送到行政院去\n\n05:52.442 --> 06:15.362\n我們預計我們院版大概有沒有在什麼樣的時程有辦法送進來立法院那我們可以進到修法的階段因為行政院裡面還會有政委主持的審查會所以在這一個部分的話也許看看這上半年能不能就送到立法院來\n\n06:16.522 --> 06:44.803\n我們一旦送到行政院來,我們會請政委來加速審查,來出行政院。好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長,希望就是如期的,如你們所說的,上半年我們就把這個人工生殖法送進來。好,那再來我要請教一下部長囉,因為這個最近我接到非常多的網路圈、創作圈的陳情,那這個陳情的內容是什麼呢?是關於這個兒少虛擬的部分。\n\n06:45.623 --> 07:02.783\n那看一下這個iWIN的爭議這個爭議它的起源其實是衛福部在去年10月的時候發了一個函式函式裡面說什麼呢兒少性剝削的條例有包括虛擬的兒少性影像然後呢這個函式發了之後12月\n\n07:03.564 --> 07:29.221\nIWIN就接到檢舉了說PTT上面有人在散播這個虛擬兒少的色情圖片然後IWIN之後呢他就判斷說這個有違反兒少性剝削而且違反兒少權法結果網路上的創作圈就爆炸了我們就接到一大堆陳情說哇所以現在我們的控制是到什麼程度這其實大家比較多的是擔憂是覺得說在我們的\n\n07:30.222 --> 07:49.057\n具體的範圍不明的情況下,大家不知道該如何示好。首先我先請問一下部長,現在不管是我們兒少性剝削條例還有兒少權法裡面,針對真實兒少的色情我們要保障的目的是什麼?\n\n07:50.162 --> 08:08.562\n當然第一個是保障這個兒少本身。第二個當然保障就是說對一般的約聽者來看的話,那就是讓他不要有對這樣子的兒少為一個角色的那樣子的一個幻想。\n\n08:09.687 --> 08:33.110\n是的部長其實剛提到兩個部分我剛講其實是說真實兒少色情的部分因為你真實的兒少色情就是不希望說有真的兒童的個體受到不法的侵害可是虛擬兒少的部分要保障什麼樣的目的就是像你剛說的第二種類型就是在一種不特定的兒童個人利益受到侵害的危險\n\n08:34.161 --> 08:42.147\n那簡單就是說如果有些人看了這些照片你們擔心說這些人因為看到這個兒童的裸體圖他就跑去犯罪\n\n08:43.154 --> 09:09.796\n我必須要說這兩種是完全不一樣的法義一個是非常具體會受到侵害的個人那虛擬兒少是一種可能會發生的危險就是所謂的社會法義可是我們在憲法的層次如果要討論說這些自由是不是會受到限制的時候會去看他們的比例原則嗎就是說我現在做了一個行為他可能造成多大的危險我就來定多強的管制手段\n\n09:10.276 --> 09:25.450\n但是現在的虛擬兒少跟犯罪之間並看不出來有沒有具體的因果關係啊。所以我覺得現在這種虛擬兒少你用刑責啦去刻意來加註在他身上真的是大砲打小鳥。\n\n09:26.511 --> 09:41.484\n部長你可以看一下我們一個這個研究這個是日本網友有做一個非常有趣的研究你看一下那個綠色的它就是日本動漫當年度發行的數量然後黃色跟紅色的是就是青少年跟兒童被害的數量\n\n09:42.245 --> 10:06.310\n如果你真的要去拉因果關係的話你會發現說哇動漫發行的越來越多結果犯罪的受害者還越來越少欸你可以這樣解讀嗎?不會這樣解讀嗎?就是因為不會這樣解讀所以我們不會說你因為這個創作的數量或是創作的兒少色情的部分然後就去跟犯罪拉上一定的因果關係這是非常荒謬的\n\n10:07.310 --> 10:31.100\n那在動漫公會其實前幾週有辦一個論壇那日本有一個非常有名的漫畫家他是純情房東翹房客的作家赤松健那他現在也是日本的眾議員那他就有表達說日本在過去也因為一些有心人士用這種保護兒童跟青少年之名希望透過法律來限縮他的創作自由但是這樣的主張毫無科學根據\n\n10:32.521 --> 10:53.108\n那其實以你們現在的主張啊,你們就認為說這些創作者有點像是抽象危險犯,因為你認為他只要畫了,他只要占卜了這個虛擬的兒童裸體圖,你就犯法了。然後也不去問他你是不是真的有增加性犯罪的危險。那過去我們刑法上面的抽象危險犯是像什麼?像酒駕。\n\n10:54.087 --> 11:12.026\n因為你酒駕就確實大家都認為這個社會都認為說你酒駕真的造成的風險非常高那這個是一種抽象危險犯的概念可是你把現在說我畫了一個兒童虛擬的他的裸體圖然後就覺得他很危險他跟酒駕一樣危險\n\n11:13.107 --> 11:13.687\n怎麼說?我們來看一下一張圖。\n\n11:30.339 --> 11:48.082\n看第一張圖不知道部長有沒有看過七龍珠?這個七龍珠是很多人的共同的童年回憶你有看過那我相信部長也知道裡面其實有一些裸露的畫面那這個經典的漫畫裡面像是第一個這個是烏龍扮成的布馬\n\n11:48.703 --> 12:06.737\n那這個角色在當時候其實也是未成年喔他是裸體的兒童喔那再來第二張不知道有沒有看過亂馬二分之一也是一個非常經典的漫畫裡面也是一個未成年的少年然後他也是有裸露的畫面\n\n12:07.658 --> 12:35.353\n再看一下第三張圖這第三張圖是叫做兒時的丘比特跟賽奇他是一個法國畫家的作品那裡面不只是有裸露而且還有親吻的動作那第四個是一個美國的天才的作家跟畫家叫做亨利達格他的作品叫做維安女孩的故事裡面是在講說有一群兒童他在對抗一群奇幻的生物那這群兒童因為他們在戰鬥當中所以你可以看到照圖片裡面\n\n12:36.474 --> 12:58.365\n他們是受到折磨的然後裸體的然後被捆綁的那我想問一下以上這四張圖部長覺得他們有違反兒少性剝削條例嗎?這個條例裡面有兩個構成要件那一個就是會引起所謂的猥褻的這樣子的依債第二個才是兒少要符合這兩個才會構成說違法\n\n13:00.666 --> 13:18.747\n好,謝謝部長。沒錯,要符合兒少而且要猥褻。那猥褻的定義是什麼?有人覺得他看了這四張圖,他覺得很猥褻,那他是不是就跑去檢舉了?那造成的結果,不好意思部長,請我講一下。我知道說我剛剛舉的這些例子不一定真的到最後會被定罪啦。\n\n13:19.227 --> 13:39.680\n只是說這個為什麼我說這是一種扼殺創作自由是因為有人覺得看了這幾張照片他就覺得符合耳哨而且猥褻的定義然後呢他在過程當中他就瘋狂去檢舉他在PTC上面看到他在網絡上看到他覺得他看了青龍珠很猥褻然後他就跑去檢舉了那這樣造成的結果是什麼\n\n13:40.120 --> 14:03.410\n如果現在是一個創作者他就是說好啊與其這樣提心吊膽每一天我乾脆不畫了我乾脆不要創作了因為你難道你要我每天畫畫的時候我旁邊對照一個範例的圖本說哦這個姿勢可以哦這個表情可以哦這個裸露肩膀可以然後這個不行他難道要每天這樣對照著來看來創作他的漫畫嗎\n\n14:05.011 --> 14:22.086\n這個其實當你們這樣子界定下去就會造成這樣的結果所以我不希望的是到最後變成扼殺所有的創作自由那當然真實的兒少是一定要保障的所以我要講一下我具體的建議第一個真實的兒少本來就應該要保護\n\n14:23.066 --> 14:49.808\n一定要,這些犯罪一定要打擊到底。絕對不可以有任何一個具體的兒童受到傷害。這個是前提。但是因為現在兒少性剝去條例裡面並沒有寫明說包括虛擬作品。也就是說這個解釋權在你們身上。所以我希望接下來看可不可以去排除掉虛擬的作品。那至少要排除掉這些非逼真的虛擬作品。就是說他畫的這個圖他不是指涉一個具體的兒童。\n\n14:50.168 --> 15:13.335\n他不是真的說這個兒童背後代表某一個真實的人會受到傷害那如果可以的話這樣的這些虛擬作品是不是應該要先排除呢那最後因為兒少全法的有害身心的內容你們到現在也沒有一個比較明確的指引導致大家現在人心惶惶你們是不是應該也要有一些相對應不同等級的管制措施\n\n15:34.187 --> 15:35.448\n謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第11號游浩委員質詢。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.149,"end":0.309,"text":"黃偉豪、黃國昇擔任議員"},{"start":8.803,"end":35.731,"text":"謝謝,好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長首先我想要請教一下這個人工生殖的議題因為台灣在2019年通過了同婚那在去年我們也把跨國同婚還有同性伴侶的共同收養也通過了那這個其實非常不簡單我覺得這個是民進黨的行政部門還有我們立法院所有的夥伴還有許多團體共同的成果那因為我們非常重視這個性別人權才有今天這個亞洲第一的成果"},{"start":36.271,"end":36.291,"text":"應該是。"},{"start":54.247,"end":80.424,"text":"沒錯,這個是憲法保障的基本權之一因為其實大法官的釋字裡面有提到說要保障個人的主體性、人格發展的自由所以我們需要家庭制度是因為家庭可以提供繁衍、教育、經濟、文化這一些等等社會必要的支持所以大法官他其實是非常肯認這個生育權的那只是說接下來要討論的就是說繁衍的權利到底有沒有必要跟家庭綁在一起"},{"start":81.596,"end":106.003,"text":"為什麼會這樣問呢?因為其實現在我們不結婚你收養小孩一樣是被憲法所保障的也就是說你單身是可以進行收養的那以現在台灣相關的規定來看不管你要請產假還是產檢假還是領生育補助領育兒補助都沒有一定要以結婚為前提也就是說我認為不管你有沒有結婚其實憲法都保障你的生育權"},{"start":107.063,"end":133.746,"text":"那這樣的觀點之下那來討論這個人工生殖我認為其實現在的人工生殖法非常有可能會違憲怎麼說因為其實台灣的人工生殖法只有保障異性戀的不孕夫妻現在是這樣子那這樣其實非常的不合理啊因為我認為現在我們人工生殖法應該也要把同志配偶以及單身的女性放進去才對"},{"start":135.447,"end":161.776,"text":"當然現在的討論是有人認為說社會上會覺得說單身的家庭是不是因為你的資源少一半然後覺得你家庭支持的系統少了一半可能會影響小孩子的認同然後覺得這樣是不正常的家庭觀當然社會上有一些這樣反彈的聲音甚至有些人會覺得說單身女性如果你透過人工生殖來懷孕會刻意的造成單親家庭"},{"start":162.856,"end":171.052,"text":"然後會說因為你的父親缺席了你就違反兒童公約的兒童最佳利益請問院長您同意這些反對的看法嗎?"},{"start":172.516,"end":193.394,"text":"這些確實是有人提出這樣的一個反對不過在人工生殖法的這個討論的過程當中確實有這樣的一個意見但是我們會通盤來就不同的意見來取得最佳的解決方案好謝謝院長我必須說啦其實單親會不會對小孩造成影響不能用感覺不能用偏見來看待"},{"start":195.316,"end":220.053,"text":"那其實我有準備一些研究這些研究其實就把這樣的一個偏見徹底的排除那這個是第一種研究它其實是一種就是非自願單親的形態就是它的研究結果是什麼呢它說對小孩會造成影響的不在於你的身份而是你的經歷也就是說你有沒有因為離婚讓這個家庭然後造成對小孩覺得有陰影"},{"start":220.854,"end":237.724,"text":"或者是說你目睹了父母之間過去有非常多的衝突然後對小孩造成壓力也就是說你的身份是什麼你是不是單親並不是影響小孩心理最重要的因素而是你在這個他成長的過程他是不是經歷了一些讓他造成陰影的事情"},{"start":238.544,"end":253.13,"text":"那我還有看到另外一份研究他是準備了一組是51位的單親母母單親的家庭然後另外一組是雙親那他們這個都是就是透過就是捐精的方式懷孕的那在這兩組"},{"start":254.13,"end":269.692,"text":"的類別當中發現什麼呢?他發現說其實不管你的是哪種形態的家庭你的養育品質都是沒有差異的甚至還發現說單親家庭中母親跟孩子的衝突頻率比雙親家庭還低"},{"start":270.473,"end":298.115,"text":"那他的意思就是說其實你不會因為你是單親媽媽然後你就會特別讓孩子有心理壓力那甚至有另外一個研究也是類似的他是說家庭關係的重要性比家庭的結構來的重要也就是你跟小孩子到底有沒有好好相處有沒有讓他感受到你的關懷遠比到底是怎麼樣類型的家庭結構重要的多所以我認為前面的這些反對的意見根本就不存在"},{"start":299.244,"end":315.045,"text":"重點是你的家庭你的社會可以給予多少支持那這種先入為主說一定要一個爸爸一個媽媽才能對小孩比較好這樣的觀點其實並沒有社會的支持以及目前的研究來支持的"},{"start":315.626,"end":317.427,"text":"目前正在修法的過程當中,我們匯集各界的意見。"},{"start":336.892,"end":351.02,"text":"上一次我們也舉辦了一次公聽會那在27號還會有另外一次的公聽會會來舉行那把這些意見都收集出來之後我們的版本就會送到行政院去"},{"start":352.442,"end":375.362,"text":"我們預計我們院版大概有沒有在什麼樣的時程有辦法送進來立法院那我們可以進到修法的階段因為行政院裡面還會有政委主持的審查會所以在這一個部分的話也許看看這上半年能不能就送到立法院來"},{"start":376.522,"end":404.803,"text":"我們一旦送到行政院來,我們會請政委來加速審查,來出行政院。好,謝謝院長,謝謝部長,希望就是如期的,如你們所說的,上半年我們就把這個人工生殖法送進來。好,那再來我要請教一下部長囉,因為這個最近我接到非常多的網路圈、創作圈的陳情,那這個陳情的內容是什麼呢?是關於這個兒少虛擬的部分。"},{"start":405.623,"end":422.783,"text":"那看一下這個iWIN的爭議這個爭議它的起源其實是衛福部在去年10月的時候發了一個函式函式裡面說什麼呢兒少性剝削的條例有包括虛擬的兒少性影像然後呢這個函式發了之後12月"},{"start":423.564,"end":449.221,"text":"IWIN就接到檢舉了說PTT上面有人在散播這個虛擬兒少的色情圖片然後IWIN之後呢他就判斷說這個有違反兒少性剝削而且違反兒少權法結果網路上的創作圈就爆炸了我們就接到一大堆陳情說哇所以現在我們的控制是到什麼程度這其實大家比較多的是擔憂是覺得說在我們的"},{"start":450.222,"end":469.057,"text":"具體的範圍不明的情況下,大家不知道該如何示好。首先我先請問一下部長,現在不管是我們兒少性剝削條例還有兒少權法裡面,針對真實兒少的色情我們要保障的目的是什麼?"},{"start":470.162,"end":488.562,"text":"當然第一個是保障這個兒少本身。第二個當然保障就是說對一般的約聽者來看的話,那就是讓他不要有對這樣子的兒少為一個角色的那樣子的一個幻想。"},{"start":489.687,"end":513.11,"text":"是的部長其實剛提到兩個部分我剛講其實是說真實兒少色情的部分因為你真實的兒少色情就是不希望說有真的兒童的個體受到不法的侵害可是虛擬兒少的部分要保障什麼樣的目的就是像你剛說的第二種類型就是在一種不特定的兒童個人利益受到侵害的危險"},{"start":514.161,"end":522.147,"text":"那簡單就是說如果有些人看了這些照片你們擔心說這些人因為看到這個兒童的裸體圖他就跑去犯罪"},{"start":523.154,"end":549.796,"text":"我必須要說這兩種是完全不一樣的法義一個是非常具體會受到侵害的個人那虛擬兒少是一種可能會發生的危險就是所謂的社會法義可是我們在憲法的層次如果要討論說這些自由是不是會受到限制的時候會去看他們的比例原則嗎就是說我現在做了一個行為他可能造成多大的危險我就來定多強的管制手段"},{"start":550.276,"end":565.45,"text":"但是現在的虛擬兒少跟犯罪之間並看不出來有沒有具體的因果關係啊。所以我覺得現在這種虛擬兒少你用刑責啦去刻意來加註在他身上真的是大砲打小鳥。"},{"start":566.511,"end":581.484,"text":"部長你可以看一下我們一個這個研究這個是日本網友有做一個非常有趣的研究你看一下那個綠色的它就是日本動漫當年度發行的數量然後黃色跟紅色的是就是青少年跟兒童被害的數量"},{"start":582.245,"end":606.31,"text":"如果你真的要去拉因果關係的話你會發現說哇動漫發行的越來越多結果犯罪的受害者還越來越少欸你可以這樣解讀嗎?不會這樣解讀嗎?就是因為不會這樣解讀所以我們不會說你因為這個創作的數量或是創作的兒少色情的部分然後就去跟犯罪拉上一定的因果關係這是非常荒謬的"},{"start":607.31,"end":631.1,"text":"那在動漫公會其實前幾週有辦一個論壇那日本有一個非常有名的漫畫家他是純情房東翹房客的作家赤松健那他現在也是日本的眾議員那他就有表達說日本在過去也因為一些有心人士用這種保護兒童跟青少年之名希望透過法律來限縮他的創作自由但是這樣的主張毫無科學根據"},{"start":632.521,"end":653.108,"text":"那其實以你們現在的主張啊,你們就認為說這些創作者有點像是抽象危險犯,因為你認為他只要畫了,他只要占卜了這個虛擬的兒童裸體圖,你就犯法了。然後也不去問他你是不是真的有增加性犯罪的危險。那過去我們刑法上面的抽象危險犯是像什麼?像酒駕。"},{"start":654.087,"end":672.026,"text":"因為你酒駕就確實大家都認為這個社會都認為說你酒駕真的造成的風險非常高那這個是一種抽象危險犯的概念可是你把現在說我畫了一個兒童虛擬的他的裸體圖然後就覺得他很危險他跟酒駕一樣危險"},{"start":673.107,"end":673.687,"text":"怎麼說?我們來看一下一張圖。"},{"start":690.339,"end":708.082,"text":"看第一張圖不知道部長有沒有看過七龍珠?這個七龍珠是很多人的共同的童年回憶你有看過那我相信部長也知道裡面其實有一些裸露的畫面那這個經典的漫畫裡面像是第一個這個是烏龍扮成的布馬"},{"start":708.703,"end":726.737,"text":"那這個角色在當時候其實也是未成年喔他是裸體的兒童喔那再來第二張不知道有沒有看過亂馬二分之一也是一個非常經典的漫畫裡面也是一個未成年的少年然後他也是有裸露的畫面"},{"start":727.658,"end":755.353,"text":"再看一下第三張圖這第三張圖是叫做兒時的丘比特跟賽奇他是一個法國畫家的作品那裡面不只是有裸露而且還有親吻的動作那第四個是一個美國的天才的作家跟畫家叫做亨利達格他的作品叫做維安女孩的故事裡面是在講說有一群兒童他在對抗一群奇幻的生物那這群兒童因為他們在戰鬥當中所以你可以看到照圖片裡面"},{"start":756.474,"end":778.365,"text":"他們是受到折磨的然後裸體的然後被捆綁的那我想問一下以上這四張圖部長覺得他們有違反兒少性剝削條例嗎?這個條例裡面有兩個構成要件那一個就是會引起所謂的猥褻的這樣子的依債第二個才是兒少要符合這兩個才會構成說違法"},{"start":780.666,"end":798.747,"text":"好,謝謝部長。沒錯,要符合兒少而且要猥褻。那猥褻的定義是什麼?有人覺得他看了這四張圖,他覺得很猥褻,那他是不是就跑去檢舉了?那造成的結果,不好意思部長,請我講一下。我知道說我剛剛舉的這些例子不一定真的到最後會被定罪啦。"},{"start":799.227,"end":819.68,"text":"只是說這個為什麼我說這是一種扼殺創作自由是因為有人覺得看了這幾張照片他就覺得符合耳哨而且猥褻的定義然後呢他在過程當中他就瘋狂去檢舉他在PTC上面看到他在網絡上看到他覺得他看了青龍珠很猥褻然後他就跑去檢舉了那這樣造成的結果是什麼"},{"start":820.12,"end":843.41,"text":"如果現在是一個創作者他就是說好啊與其這樣提心吊膽每一天我乾脆不畫了我乾脆不要創作了因為你難道你要我每天畫畫的時候我旁邊對照一個範例的圖本說哦這個姿勢可以哦這個表情可以哦這個裸露肩膀可以然後這個不行他難道要每天這樣對照著來看來創作他的漫畫嗎"},{"start":845.011,"end":862.086,"text":"這個其實當你們這樣子界定下去就會造成這樣的結果所以我不希望的是到最後變成扼殺所有的創作自由那當然真實的兒少是一定要保障的所以我要講一下我具體的建議第一個真實的兒少本來就應該要保護"},{"start":863.066,"end":889.808,"text":"一定要,這些犯罪一定要打擊到底。絕對不可以有任何一個具體的兒童受到傷害。這個是前提。但是因為現在兒少性剝去條例裡面並沒有寫明說包括虛擬作品。也就是說這個解釋權在你們身上。所以我希望接下來看可不可以去排除掉虛擬的作品。那至少要排除掉這些非逼真的虛擬作品。就是說他畫的這個圖他不是指涉一個具體的兒童。"},{"start":890.168,"end":913.335,"text":"他不是真的說這個兒童背後代表某一個真實的人會受到傷害那如果可以的話這樣的這些虛擬作品是不是應該要先排除呢那最後因為兒少全法的有害身心的內容你們到現在也沒有一個比較明確的指引導致大家現在人心惶惶你們是不是應該也要有一些相對應不同等級的管制措施"},{"start":934.187,"end":935.448,"text":"謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第11號游浩委員質詢。"}]}}}}