{"id":150437,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150437","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d568d3a186fb66980ca3d9204d572e03aff8ba9b0039caa7a6dd19aba2380f10335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:23:33 - 09:35:11","影片長度":"00:11:38","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案(含報告事項45案及討論事項4案)。【如經復議則不予處理或審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-9"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":698,"end_time":"2024-03-27T09:35:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T09:23:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":29,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時23分）主席早、官員早、各位同事早。我請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，今天各大報都是頭版，去年說今年第1季會拍板所有的碳費費率還有子法公告等等，但第1季現在只剩下4天就要結束了，所以很多業者都非常緊張，因為上次我們討論這件事的時候電費還沒漲。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：現在電費要漲，碳費又不知道要收多少錢。上次我們建議您把CPI納入你們開審議會的內容，有納入，非常非常好。"],["薛部長富盛：是，跟陳委員報告，這是一個很好的機會，也跟各位報告，在碳費審議委員會還沒有成立之前，環境部對外的確預告說希望3月底能夠順利討論出碳費的費率。但是在審議會成立之後，依照氣候法，費率決定的審議就是由委員會進行，所以也很抱歉跟我們當初的落差，當然環境部以一個主責單位去做規劃是應當的，但是執行面……"],["陳委員菁徽：那您昨天有討論到電費嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：有，事實上也把大院所提的、上個禮拜在委員會有討論這個提案，也轉交給我們委員會參考，所以委員會才認為與其用喊價的方式馬上投票決定費率，還不如請環境部提供更周全的資料。"],["陳委員菁徽：很OK，但是第一次開會開了3個小時，結果你們的會議紀錄只有1頁，上面講到我們要用科學證據還有各國的數據，這是委員建議的嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：但你也當過教授，有帶過研究生。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：如果第一次開會還拿不出各國的狀況，這樣不是……也會被你罵吧？"],["薛部長富盛：因為第一次的主要目的，是讓大家瞭解整個委員會的責任……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以第一次講各國的狀況，結果昨天第二次開會還在講下次要拿出日韓的狀況來參考。這些東西去年就可以整理好了，結果昨天還在討論說各國的數據都還沒有齊全。可是就像剛剛林委員質詢的，現在一蘭拉麵都漲價了，兩百九變三百一，所以很多企業主真的也會緊張，必須要把這些成本考量進去，明年的預算沒有辦法編。請問下一次、第三次審議會你們要討論什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：我想就漸漸會進入到實質費率的決定部分，包括陳委員剛剛講的CPI、電費漲價以及央行升息等等，我覺得委員會都會把它考慮進去，反而我覺得沒有辦法在3月底以前決定費率不見得是壞事。"],["陳委員菁徽：全民都非常期待你們第三次的審議會到底可不可以訂出費率、徵收對象等等的子法。我覺得召委人真的太好了，去年召委就已經說我們要凍結，因為沒有辦法完備碳定價相關法規、配套，可是今天我們還是在討論一樣的問題，這個我想等一下會有非常、非常多委員繼續追問您，是否今天可以解凍，但目前看起來，去年凍結的原因跟今天我們要討論的是沒有什麼太大的進步，所以等一下也許很多委員還會陸續再問您吧！"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：上次也講到，因為我是不孕症醫師，也是生殖醫師，而塑膠、塑料已經不只是污染環境的議題，它更是健康議題。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：也被證實是影響現在不孕症居高不下的發生率，所以在未來……兩年前看到有175個國家齊聚肯亞，開始談論這個重要的國際法案。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：今年底會推出全球塑膠公約，而且這具有法律約束力，從生產到消費到整個週期的條約，請問環境部現在有做什麼因應，關於今年年底會發布的全球塑膠公約之來臨？"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，事實上我們已經針對剛剛委員所提的塑膠公約，在2024年、今年年底會立法完成，朝向減塑的目標，環境部資源循環促進法也積極在推動，我們的草案也已經預告了。另，外包括一次性塑膠、源頭減量等等，環境部都有在進行。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，您提到一次性塑膠，2018年李應元署長就推出階段性策略說2030年我們要全面禁用塑膠袋、一次性餐具、飲料杯、吸管等等。當時臺灣非常驕傲，環保團體都表示肯定，覺得政府終於做對事情了，我們可能會成為全球第一個管制塑膠吸管的國家。結果去年8月，我們突然把目標變成手段說限禁用不再是唯一的方向，並且提出2050淨零轉型「資源循環零廢棄」關鍵戰略行動計畫，說我們現在中長期的推動重點是減少50%。請問這樣算不算是政策跳票？"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，我們當然有一些理想、期待去推動，但是也因為臺灣一些特殊的環境，在推動上面也碰到一些阻力。譬如當我們要減塑，傳統市場、攤販等等，事實上也造成一些挑戰，原因是我們也必須顧及民生使用的便利性，所以這一點當然也需要全民共同努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們應該叫做修正目標吧？"],["薛部長富盛：是，可以……"],["陳委員菁徽：不是把目標變成手段？"],["薛部長富盛：是，所以並沒有說不推動，請陳委員諒解。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以全球現在在減塑，我們本來是模範生，現在反而是開倒車。既然你提到了減少50%，裡面就包括零售業的包裝減量，還有上次我們提到的循環杯嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：循環杯，是。"],["陳委員菁徽：只要是購物節，部長到超商就可以看到這樣子的畫面。當然您規範資本額在一定金額以上的業者、電商業者等，這都很好，可是其實像這樣子在超商販賣，有很多是大平臺上的小店家，比如微電商等等，他們的交易量有時候雖然看起來不大，但是整個加起來是很大的。我在這邊也要提醒部長，您是否應該規範這些微電商在大平臺上也要使用綠包裝？"],["薛部長富盛：是，我想陳委員講到重點，基本上我也請我們部內的同仁要盤點這些包裝裡面材料、包材的使用，到底哪一部分占最大宗，事實上反而是中小型電商，包括我剛剛講的攤販跟……"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊給部長一個建議，因為你們都已經有管制大的平臺嘛！二十幾家。"],["薛部長富盛：是，那個反而很容易推。"],["陳委員菁徽：其實他們那邊一調就調得出來下面小電商的交易量，所以你應該要從大的平臺上面去做源頭管理。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，再來我也很想問，上次我們兩個討論循環杯，網路已經有22.6萬人看了，所以大家很關心你的後續。循環杯你補助了半年，後來就沒有繼續補助，請問原因為何？"],["薛部長富盛：是不是請我們同仁來回答循環杯的補助部分。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，那是我們推動初期的試辦，後來就用法令強制的方式來做。"],["陳委員菁徽：你補助的期間，門市借杯總共有7家，所以我們做出了26萬個循環杯，花了一千多萬，活動借杯為0喔！上次您給的業報，這些循環杯總共被借用34.7萬次，除起來每個杯子才用一點多次耶！這樣跟一次性的塑膠杯幾乎沒有什麼差別。"],["薛部長富盛：這一點的確有挑戰。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們除了這個補助，也有補助地方政府來做，像桃園市在職棒或是一些賽事上都有在做。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以本席建議您應該把它改成封閉式的場域，而不要繼續在流動性的場域使用循環杯了，然後去比較一下這樣成效是不是很好、是不是有變好，然後再來決定是不是要繼續推動這個政策，以免像我們這樣不符合國外市場的塑膠袋用量非常多。","所以這個就是您提到的，當然，你可能很難達到禁用，但是我們至少要達到持平啊！我們從2000年到2020年，塑膠袋的用量是激增35%耶！每個人每年平均使用780個塑膠袋，比歐盟每人每年使用198個多出4倍，所以我們現在不但改變目標，還快要放棄了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：委員提供這個資訊也跟我剛剛講的一樣嘛！就是傳統市場、攤販這些，使用的塑膠袋量真的太高了，但它就是很方便……"],["陳委員菁徽：因為時間快到了，請您稍微看一下，之前行政院有針對你用什麼單位做為標準提出審查意見，覺得你們不應該再用一個、一個。本席在這邊做最後的建議，經濟部其實源頭就有數據顯示塑膠袋內銷的量是多少，這只是塑膠袋喔，不包括吸管、杯子等等，從100年到112年，就從14萬噸成長到20.8萬噸，這是源頭，而其實源頭就是污染的開始，如果從源頭就可以管理的話，後面就可以不用這麼累。這是本席給部長的最後一個建議。謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳菁徽","劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","洪申翰","李彥秀","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","黃國昌","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00002","1132102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍\n結案49案（含報告事項45案及討論事項4案）（前接第一冊）","agenda_id":"1132102_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"150437","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150437","tool":"pyannote","id":"150437-pyannote"},"job_id":"yFWwx5E66DE1RX3r","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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{\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"噸\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 675.92, \"end\": 675.94, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"噸\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"婉\", \"start\": 681.403, \"end\": 681.423, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嫻\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 681.423, \"end\": 681.443, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,219 --> 00:00:35,300\n主席早官員早各位同事早我請部長請薛部長好陳委員早好部長今天各大報都是頭版啊去年第一季就說去年說今年的第一季會拍板所有的碳費費率啊還有執法公告等等的但我們現在第一季只剩下4天就要結束了\n\n2\n00:00:36,261 --> 00:00:55,572\n所以很多業者都非常的緊張因為上次我們討論這件事的時候電費還沒漲嘛是現在電費要漲碳費又不知道要收多少錢所以請問上次我們有建議您把CPI納入你們開會審議會的內容\n\n3\n00:00:57,233 --> 00:00:58,514\n有納入非常非常好。\n\n4\n00:01:27,433 --> 00:01:27,473\n議員會主席\n\n5\n00:01:57,733 --> 00:02:22,162\n結果你們的會議紀錄只有一頁啦上面是講到說我們要用科學的證據還有各國的數據這是委員建議的嘛但你也當過教授有帶過研究生啊如果第一次開會還拿不出各國的狀況這樣不是也會被你罵吧因為第一次事實上主要目的是讓大家了解整個碳有價委員會的責任\n\n6\n00:02:23,802 --> 00:02:24,042\n各國的數據還沒有齊全\n\n7\n00:02:41,073 --> 00:02:58,491\n可是現在就像剛剛林委員質詢的一攬拉麵都漲價了290變310所以很多企業主他們真的也會緊張必須要把這些成本考量進去明年的預算沒有辦法編請問下一次第三次的審議會你們要討論什麼\n\n8\n00:03:01,705 --> 00:03:23,082\n我想就漸漸會進入到實質費率的決定的部分包括陳委員剛剛講的CPI以及包括電費的漲價以及央行的升息等等我覺得委員會他們都會把它考慮進去這一點也是我覺得反而沒有辦法在3月底以前決定費率不見得是壞事\n\n9\n00:03:24,403 --> 00:03:46,165\n非常期待你們第三次的審議會到底可不可以訂出費率啊徵收對象啊等等的執法啦這個我覺得昭偉人真的太好了去年昭偉就已經說我們要凍結因為沒有辦法完備碳定價相關法規配套可是今天我們還是在討論一樣的問題\n\n10\n00:03:50,246 --> 00:04:08,626\n這個我想等一下會有非常非常多的委員繼續追問您是否今天可以解凍但目前看起來去年解凍的原因去年凍結原因跟今天我們要討論的是沒有什麼太大的進步啦所以等一下也許很多委員還會陸續再問您吧好\n\n11\n00:04:12,779 --> 00:04:32,532\n再來上次也有講到說因為我是不孕症醫師也是生殖醫師嘛所以塑膠、塑料已經不只是污染環境的議題它更是一個健康的議題也被證實是影響我們現在不孕症居高不下的發生率所以未來呢\n\n12\n00:04:34,471 --> 00:04:57,998\n去兩年前有看到175個國家齊聚在肯亞開始談論這個重要的國際法案今年底會推出全球塑膠公約而且這是具有法律約束力的從生產到消費到整個週期的條約請問環境部現在有做什麼因應關於今年年底會發布全球塑膠公約來臨嗎?\n\n13\n00:05:00,479 --> 00:05:14,112\n給委員報告事實上我們已經針對2024年在今年年底這個剛剛委員所提到塑膠公約會立法來完成大家朝向檢証人目標環境部資源循環促進法\n\n14\n00:05:14,813 --> 00:05:42,051\n也積極的在推動事實上我們的草案也已經預告了嘛吼那另外就是包括一次性的塑膠鹽頭減量我們來看對您提到一次性您提到一次性塑膠2018年李應元署長當時就推出了階段性的策略說2030年我們要全面禁用塑膠袋啊一次性的餐具飲料杯吸管等等\n\n15\n00:05:43,152 --> 00:05:57,952\n當時呢臺灣非常的驕傲環保團體都表示肯定覺得我們政府終於做對事情了我們可能會成為全球第一個管制吸管國家的塑膠吸管的國家結果去年8月\n\n16\n00:05:58,533 --> 00:06:09,124\n我們突然把我們的目標變成手段說現進用不再是唯一的方向並且提出2050淨零轉型資源循環零廢棄關鍵戰略行動計畫非常長的一個計畫說我們現在中長期的推動重點是減少50%\n\n17\n00:06:21,572 --> 00:06:47,119\n請問這樣算不算是一個政策跳票?給委員報告事實上我們當然有一些理想期待去推動但是也因為台灣一些特殊的環境在推動上面也碰到一些阻力比如說當我們要減塑我們的傳統市場我們的癱瘓等等事實上也造成一些挑戰原因是我們也必須顧及到民生他\n\n18\n00:06:47,679 --> 00:06:52,202\n因此,全球正在減速,我們本來是模範生,現在反而是開倒車啦。既然你提到了減少50%,裡面就包括零售業的包裝減量,還有\n\n19\n00:07:16,335 --> 00:07:42,260\n上次我們提到的循環杯嘛這個只要是購物節部長你到超商就可以看到這樣子的畫面當然您規範在資本額一定金額以上的業者電商業者等都很好可是呢其實啊像這樣子在超商販賣有很多是大的平台上的小的店家比如說微電商等等\n\n20\n00:07:43,360 --> 00:08:12,520\n他們的交易量有時候雖然看起來不大但是整個加起來是很大的我在這邊也要提醒部長您是否應該要規範這些微電商在大平台上也要使用綠包裝呢是我想陳委員講到重點我基本上也請我們部內的同仁要去盤點整個這些包裝裡面材料包材的使用到底哪一部分佔最大中事實上反而是中小\n\n21\n00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,443\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n22\n00:08:36,000 --> 00:09:02,326\n再來我也很想問上次我們兩個討論循環杯網路已經有22.6萬人看了所以大家很關心你的後續循環杯的補助你補助了半年後來就沒有繼續補助請問原因為何呢我是不是請我們同仁來回答一下循環杯的補助的部分是那跟委員報告那是我們推動初期的這個事辦那後來就用法令強制的方式來做\n\n23\n00:09:03,697 --> 00:09:31,439\n好我們來看喔總共你補助的期間門市借杯有7家所以我們做出了26萬個循環杯花了1000多萬活動借杯0喔好上次您給的業報啊這個循環杯它總共被借用是34.7萬借用喔除起來每個杯子才用一點多次欸這樣跟一次性的塑膠杯幾乎沒有什麼差別了欸嗯\n\n24\n00:09:35,115 --> 00:10:03,361\n這一點的確有挑戰跟委員報告那我們除了是說這個這個補助的那我們也有補助地方地方政府來做那像討論事他就是有在職棒或說我們在一些對所以我建議啦本席建議您應該把它改成封閉式的場域而不要繼續在流動性的場域使用循環杯額然後去比較一下這樣成效是不是很好是不是有變好那你再來決定是不是要繼續這個政策以免又像我們這樣不符合國外\n\n25\n00:10:05,323 --> 00:10:07,171\n市場塑膠袋用量非常多\n\n26\n00:10:08,311 --> 00:10:36,631\n所以這個就是您提到的當然你可能很難達到禁用但是我們至少要達到持平我們從2000年到現在2020年塑膠袋的用量是激增35%所以每個人每年平均用780個塑膠袋是比歐盟每年使用的198個多出4倍所以我們現在不但改變目標我們還快要放棄了嘛\n\n27\n00:10:37,984 --> 00:10:59,693\n對我想這個陳文你提供這個資訊也跟我剛剛講的一樣嘛就是說傳統市場的癱瘓這些使用的塑膠袋真的量太高太高了因為時間快到所以請您稍微看一下之前呢行政院有針對你用什麼單位作為標準提出審查意見覺得你們不應該再用一個一個\n\n28\n00:11:00,993 --> 00:11:15,940\n好本席在這邊做最後一張的建議經濟部其實呢源頭就有數據去顯示你塑膠袋內銷的量是多少那這個只是塑膠袋喔不包括你的吸管杯子等等的你從100年到112年就從14萬噸到20.8萬噸\n\n29\n00:11:21,403 --> 00:11:21,443\n陳婉嫻委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7219\t35300\t主席早 官員早 各位同事早我請部長 請薛部長好 陳委員早好 部長今天各大報都是頭版啊去年第一季就說去年說今年的第一季會拍板所有的碳費費率啊還有執法公告等等的但我們現在第一季只剩下4天就要結束了\n36261\t55572\t所以很多業者都非常的緊張因為上次我們討論這件事的時候電費還沒漲嘛是現在電費要漲碳費又不知道要收多少錢所以請問上次我們有建議您把CPI納入你們開會審議會的內容\n57233\t58514\t有納入非常非常好。\n87433\t87473\t議員會主席\n117733\t142162\t結果你們的會議紀錄只有一頁啦上面是講到說我們要用科學的證據還有各國的數據這是委員建議的嘛但你也當過教授有帶過研究生啊如果第一次開會還拿不出各國的狀況這樣不是也會被你罵吧因為第一次事實上主要目的是讓大家了解整個碳有價委員會的責任\n143802\t144042\t各國的數據還沒有齊全\n161073\t178491\t可是現在就像剛剛林委員質詢的一攬拉麵都漲價了290變310所以很多企業主他們真的也會緊張必須要把這些成本考量進去明年的預算沒有辦法編請問下一次第三次的審議會你們要討論什麼\n181705\t203082\t我想就漸漸會進入到實質費率的決定的部分包括陳委員剛剛講的CPI以及包括電費的漲價以及央行的升息等等我覺得委員會他們都會把它考慮進去這一點也是我覺得反而沒有辦法在3月底以前決定費率不見得是壞事\n204403\t226165\t非常期待你們第三次的審議會到底可不可以訂出費率啊徵收對象啊等等的執法啦這個我覺得昭偉人真的太好了去年昭偉就已經說我們要凍結因為沒有辦法完備碳定價相關法規配套可是今天我們還是在討論一樣的問題\n230246\t248626\t這個我想等一下會有非常非常多的委員繼續追問您是否今天可以解凍但目前看起來去年解凍的原因去年凍結原因跟今天我們要討論的是沒有什麼太大的進步啦所以等一下也許很多委員還會陸續再問您吧好\n252779\t272532\t再來上次也有講到說因為我是不孕症醫師也是生殖醫師嘛所以塑膠、塑料已經不只是污染環境的議題它更是一個健康的議題也被證實是影響我們現在不孕症居高不下的發生率所以未來呢\n274471\t297998\t去兩年前有看到175個國家齊聚在肯亞開始談論這個重要的國際法案今年底會推出全球塑膠公約而且這是具有法律約束力的從生產到消費到整個週期的條約請問環境部現在有做什麼因應關於今年年底會發布全球塑膠公約來臨嗎?\n300479\t314112\t給委員報告事實上我們已經針對2024年在今年年底這個剛剛委員所提到塑膠公約會立法來完成大家朝向檢証人目標環境部資源循環促進法\n314813\t342051\t也積極的在推動事實上我們的草案也已經預告了嘛吼那另外就是包括一次性的塑膠鹽頭減量我們來看對您提到一次性您提到一次性塑膠2018年李應元署長當時就推出了階段性的策略說2030年我們要全面禁用塑膠袋啊一次性的餐具飲料杯吸管等等\n343152\t357952\t當時呢臺灣非常的驕傲環保團體都表示肯定覺得我們政府終於做對事情了我們可能會成為全球第一個管制吸管國家的塑膠吸管的國家結果去年8月\n358533\t369124\t我們突然把我們的目標變成手段說現進用不再是唯一的方向並且提出2050淨零轉型資源循環零廢棄關鍵戰略行動計畫非常長的一個計畫說我們現在中長期的推動重點是減少50%\n381572\t407119\t請問這樣算不算是一個政策跳票?給委員報告事實上我們當然有一些理想期待去推動但是也因為台灣一些特殊的環境在推動上面也碰到一些阻力比如說當我們要減塑我們的傳統市場我們的癱瘓等等事實上也造成一些挑戰原因是我們也必須顧及到民生他\n407679\t412202\t因此,全球正在減速,我們本來是模範生,現在反而是開倒車啦。既然你提到了減少50%,裡面就包括零售業的包裝減量,還有\n436335\t462260\t上次我們提到的循環杯嘛這個只要是購物節部長你到超商就可以看到這樣子的畫面當然您規範在資本額一定金額以上的業者電商業者等都很好可是呢其實啊像這樣子在超商販賣有很多是大的平台上的小的店家比如說微電商等等\n463360\t492520\t他們的交易量有時候雖然看起來不大但是整個加起來是很大的我在這邊也要提醒部長您是否應該要規範這些微電商在大平台上也要使用綠包裝呢是 我想陳委員講到重點我基本上也請我們部內的同仁要去盤點整個這些包裝裡面材料包材的使用到底哪一部分佔最大中事實上反而是中小\n493160\t496443\t含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n516000\t542326\t再來我也很想問上次我們兩個討論循環杯網路已經有22.6萬人看了所以大家很關心你的後續循環杯的補助你補助了半年後來就沒有繼續補助請問原因為何呢我是不是請我們同仁來回答一下循環杯的補助的部分是那跟委員報告那是我們推動初期的這個事辦那後來就用法令強制的方式來做\n543697\t571439\t好 我們來看喔總共你補助的期間門市借杯有7家所以我們做出了26萬個循環杯花了1000多萬活動借杯0喔好 上次您給的業報啊這個循環杯它總共被借用是34.7萬借用喔除起來每個杯子才用一點多次欸這樣跟一次性的塑膠杯幾乎沒有什麼差別了欸嗯\n575115\t603361\t這一點的確有挑戰跟委員報告那我們除了是說這個這個補助的那我們也有補助地方地方政府來做那像討論事他就是有在職棒或說我們在一些對所以我建議啦本席建議您應該把它改成封閉式的場域而不要繼續在流動性的場域使用循環杯額然後去比較一下這樣成效是不是很好是不是有變好那你再來決定是不是要繼續這個政策以免又像我們這樣不符合國外\n605323\t607171\t市場塑膠袋用量非常多\n608311\t636631\t所以這個就是您提到的當然你可能很難達到禁用但是我們至少要達到持平我們從2000年到現在2020年塑膠袋的用量是激增35%所以每個人每年平均用780個塑膠袋是比歐盟每年使用的198個多出4倍所以我們現在不但改變目標我們還快要放棄了嘛\n637984\t659693\t對我想這個陳文你提供這個資訊也跟我剛剛講的一樣嘛就是說傳統市場的癱瘓這些使用的塑膠袋真的量太高太高了因為時間快到所以請您稍微看一下之前呢行政院有針對你用什麼單位作為標準提出審查意見覺得你們不應該再用一個一個\n660993\t675940\t好本席在這邊做最後一張的建議經濟部其實呢源頭就有數據去顯示你塑膠袋內銷的量是多少那這個只是塑膠袋喔不包括你的吸管杯子等等的你從100年到112年就從14萬噸到20.8萬噸\n681403\t681443\t陳婉嫻委員\n","txt":"主席早 官員早 各位同事早我請部長 請薛部長好 陳委員早好 部長今天各大報都是頭版啊去年第一季就說去年說今年的第一季會拍板所有的碳費費率啊還有執法公告等等的但我們現在第一季只剩下4天就要結束了\n所以很多業者都非常的緊張因為上次我們討論這件事的時候電費還沒漲嘛是現在電費要漲碳費又不知道要收多少錢所以請問上次我們有建議您把CPI納入你們開會審議會的內容\n有納入非常非常好。\n議員會主席\n結果你們的會議紀錄只有一頁啦上面是講到說我們要用科學的證據還有各國的數據這是委員建議的嘛但你也當過教授有帶過研究生啊如果第一次開會還拿不出各國的狀況這樣不是也會被你罵吧因為第一次事實上主要目的是讓大家了解整個碳有價委員會的責任\n各國的數據還沒有齊全\n可是現在就像剛剛林委員質詢的一攬拉麵都漲價了290變310所以很多企業主他們真的也會緊張必須要把這些成本考量進去明年的預算沒有辦法編請問下一次第三次的審議會你們要討論什麼\n我想就漸漸會進入到實質費率的決定的部分包括陳委員剛剛講的CPI以及包括電費的漲價以及央行的升息等等我覺得委員會他們都會把它考慮進去這一點也是我覺得反而沒有辦法在3月底以前決定費率不見得是壞事\n非常期待你們第三次的審議會到底可不可以訂出費率啊徵收對象啊等等的執法啦這個我覺得昭偉人真的太好了去年昭偉就已經說我們要凍結因為沒有辦法完備碳定價相關法規配套可是今天我們還是在討論一樣的問題\n這個我想等一下會有非常非常多的委員繼續追問您是否今天可以解凍但目前看起來去年解凍的原因去年凍結原因跟今天我們要討論的是沒有什麼太大的進步啦所以等一下也許很多委員還會陸續再問您吧好\n再來上次也有講到說因為我是不孕症醫師也是生殖醫師嘛所以塑膠、塑料已經不只是污染環境的議題它更是一個健康的議題也被證實是影響我們現在不孕症居高不下的發生率所以未來呢\n去兩年前有看到175個國家齊聚在肯亞開始談論這個重要的國際法案今年底會推出全球塑膠公約而且這是具有法律約束力的從生產到消費到整個週期的條約請問環境部現在有做什麼因應關於今年年底會發布全球塑膠公約來臨嗎?\n給委員報告事實上我們已經針對2024年在今年年底這個剛剛委員所提到塑膠公約會立法來完成大家朝向檢証人目標環境部資源循環促進法\n也積極的在推動事實上我們的草案也已經預告了嘛吼那另外就是包括一次性的塑膠鹽頭減量我們來看對您提到一次性您提到一次性塑膠2018年李應元署長當時就推出了階段性的策略說2030年我們要全面禁用塑膠袋啊一次性的餐具飲料杯吸管等等\n當時呢臺灣非常的驕傲環保團體都表示肯定覺得我們政府終於做對事情了我們可能會成為全球第一個管制吸管國家的塑膠吸管的國家結果去年8月\n我們突然把我們的目標變成手段說現進用不再是唯一的方向並且提出2050淨零轉型資源循環零廢棄關鍵戰略行動計畫非常長的一個計畫說我們現在中長期的推動重點是減少50%\n請問這樣算不算是一個政策跳票?給委員報告事實上我們當然有一些理想期待去推動但是也因為台灣一些特殊的環境在推動上面也碰到一些阻力比如說當我們要減塑我們的傳統市場我們的癱瘓等等事實上也造成一些挑戰原因是我們也必須顧及到民生他\n因此,全球正在減速,我們本來是模範生,現在反而是開倒車啦。既然你提到了減少50%,裡面就包括零售業的包裝減量,還有\n上次我們提到的循環杯嘛這個只要是購物節部長你到超商就可以看到這樣子的畫面當然您規範在資本額一定金額以上的業者電商業者等都很好可是呢其實啊像這樣子在超商販賣有很多是大的平台上的小的店家比如說微電商等等\n他們的交易量有時候雖然看起來不大但是整個加起來是很大的我在這邊也要提醒部長您是否應該要規範這些微電商在大平台上也要使用綠包裝呢是 我想陳委員講到重點我基本上也請我們部內的同仁要去盤點整個這些包裝裡面材料包材的使用到底哪一部分佔最大中事實上反而是中小\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n再來我也很想問上次我們兩個討論循環杯網路已經有22.6萬人看了所以大家很關心你的後續循環杯的補助你補助了半年後來就沒有繼續補助請問原因為何呢我是不是請我們同仁來回答一下循環杯的補助的部分是那跟委員報告那是我們推動初期的這個事辦那後來就用法令強制的方式來做\n好 我們來看喔總共你補助的期間門市借杯有7家所以我們做出了26萬個循環杯花了1000多萬活動借杯0喔好 上次您給的業報啊這個循環杯它總共被借用是34.7萬借用喔除起來每個杯子才用一點多次欸這樣跟一次性的塑膠杯幾乎沒有什麼差別了欸嗯\n這一點的確有挑戰跟委員報告那我們除了是說這個這個補助的那我們也有補助地方地方政府來做那像討論事他就是有在職棒或說我們在一些對所以我建議啦本席建議您應該把它改成封閉式的場域而不要繼續在流動性的場域使用循環杯額然後去比較一下這樣成效是不是很好是不是有變好那你再來決定是不是要繼續這個政策以免又像我們這樣不符合國外\n市場塑膠袋用量非常多\n所以這個就是您提到的當然你可能很難達到禁用但是我們至少要達到持平我們從2000年到現在2020年塑膠袋的用量是激增35%所以每個人每年平均用780個塑膠袋是比歐盟每年使用的198個多出4倍所以我們現在不但改變目標我們還快要放棄了嘛\n對我想這個陳文你提供這個資訊也跟我剛剛講的一樣嘛就是說傳統市場的癱瘓這些使用的塑膠袋真的量太高太高了因為時間快到所以請您稍微看一下之前呢行政院有針對你用什麼單位作為標準提出審查意見覺得你們不應該再用一個一個\n好本席在這邊做最後一張的建議經濟部其實呢源頭就有數據去顯示你塑膠袋內銷的量是多少那這個只是塑膠袋喔不包括你的吸管杯子等等的你從100年到112年就從14萬噸到20.8萬噸\n陳婉嫻委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.219 --> 00:35.300\n主席早官員早各位同事早我請部長請薛部長好陳委員早好部長今天各大報都是頭版啊去年第一季就說去年說今年的第一季會拍板所有的碳費費率啊還有執法公告等等的但我們現在第一季只剩下4天就要結束了\n\n00:36.261 --> 00:55.572\n所以很多業者都非常的緊張因為上次我們討論這件事的時候電費還沒漲嘛是現在電費要漲碳費又不知道要收多少錢所以請問上次我們有建議您把CPI納入你們開會審議會的內容\n\n00:57.233 --> 00:58.514\n有納入非常非常好。\n\n01:27.433 --> 01:27.473\n議員會主席\n\n01:57.733 --> 02:22.162\n結果你們的會議紀錄只有一頁啦上面是講到說我們要用科學的證據還有各國的數據這是委員建議的嘛但你也當過教授有帶過研究生啊如果第一次開會還拿不出各國的狀況這樣不是也會被你罵吧因為第一次事實上主要目的是讓大家了解整個碳有價委員會的責任\n\n02:23.802 --> 02:24.042\n各國的數據還沒有齊全\n\n02:41.073 --> 02:58.491\n可是現在就像剛剛林委員質詢的一攬拉麵都漲價了290變310所以很多企業主他們真的也會緊張必須要把這些成本考量進去明年的預算沒有辦法編請問下一次第三次的審議會你們要討論什麼\n\n03:01.705 --> 03:23.082\n我想就漸漸會進入到實質費率的決定的部分包括陳委員剛剛講的CPI以及包括電費的漲價以及央行的升息等等我覺得委員會他們都會把它考慮進去這一點也是我覺得反而沒有辦法在3月底以前決定費率不見得是壞事\n\n03:24.403 --> 03:46.165\n非常期待你們第三次的審議會到底可不可以訂出費率啊徵收對象啊等等的執法啦這個我覺得昭偉人真的太好了去年昭偉就已經說我們要凍結因為沒有辦法完備碳定價相關法規配套可是今天我們還是在討論一樣的問題\n\n03:50.246 --> 04:08.626\n這個我想等一下會有非常非常多的委員繼續追問您是否今天可以解凍但目前看起來去年解凍的原因去年凍結原因跟今天我們要討論的是沒有什麼太大的進步啦所以等一下也許很多委員還會陸續再問您吧好\n\n04:12.779 --> 04:32.532\n再來上次也有講到說因為我是不孕症醫師也是生殖醫師嘛所以塑膠、塑料已經不只是污染環境的議題它更是一個健康的議題也被證實是影響我們現在不孕症居高不下的發生率所以未來呢\n\n04:34.471 --> 04:57.998\n去兩年前有看到175個國家齊聚在肯亞開始談論這個重要的國際法案今年底會推出全球塑膠公約而且這是具有法律約束力的從生產到消費到整個週期的條約請問環境部現在有做什麼因應關於今年年底會發布全球塑膠公約來臨嗎?\n\n05:00.479 --> 05:14.112\n給委員報告事實上我們已經針對2024年在今年年底這個剛剛委員所提到塑膠公約會立法來完成大家朝向檢証人目標環境部資源循環促進法\n\n05:14.813 --> 05:42.051\n也積極的在推動事實上我們的草案也已經預告了嘛吼那另外就是包括一次性的塑膠鹽頭減量我們來看對您提到一次性您提到一次性塑膠2018年李應元署長當時就推出了階段性的策略說2030年我們要全面禁用塑膠袋啊一次性的餐具飲料杯吸管等等\n\n05:43.152 --> 05:57.952\n當時呢臺灣非常的驕傲環保團體都表示肯定覺得我們政府終於做對事情了我們可能會成為全球第一個管制吸管國家的塑膠吸管的國家結果去年8月\n\n05:58.533 --> 06:09.124\n我們突然把我們的目標變成手段說現進用不再是唯一的方向並且提出2050淨零轉型資源循環零廢棄關鍵戰略行動計畫非常長的一個計畫說我們現在中長期的推動重點是減少50%\n\n06:21.572 --> 06:47.119\n請問這樣算不算是一個政策跳票?給委員報告事實上我們當然有一些理想期待去推動但是也因為台灣一些特殊的環境在推動上面也碰到一些阻力比如說當我們要減塑我們的傳統市場我們的癱瘓等等事實上也造成一些挑戰原因是我們也必須顧及到民生他\n\n06:47.679 --> 06:52.202\n因此,全球正在減速,我們本來是模範生,現在反而是開倒車啦。既然你提到了減少50%,裡面就包括零售業的包裝減量,還有\n\n07:16.335 --> 07:42.260\n上次我們提到的循環杯嘛這個只要是購物節部長你到超商就可以看到這樣子的畫面當然您規範在資本額一定金額以上的業者電商業者等都很好可是呢其實啊像這樣子在超商販賣有很多是大的平台上的小的店家比如說微電商等等\n\n07:43.360 --> 08:12.520\n他們的交易量有時候雖然看起來不大但是整個加起來是很大的我在這邊也要提醒部長您是否應該要規範這些微電商在大平台上也要使用綠包裝呢是我想陳委員講到重點我基本上也請我們部內的同仁要去盤點整個這些包裝裡面材料包材的使用到底哪一部分佔最大中事實上反而是中小\n\n08:13.160 --> 08:16.443\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n08:36.000 --> 09:02.326\n再來我也很想問上次我們兩個討論循環杯網路已經有22.6萬人看了所以大家很關心你的後續循環杯的補助你補助了半年後來就沒有繼續補助請問原因為何呢我是不是請我們同仁來回答一下循環杯的補助的部分是那跟委員報告那是我們推動初期的這個事辦那後來就用法令強制的方式來做\n\n09:03.697 --> 09:31.439\n好我們來看喔總共你補助的期間門市借杯有7家所以我們做出了26萬個循環杯花了1000多萬活動借杯0喔好上次您給的業報啊這個循環杯它總共被借用是34.7萬借用喔除起來每個杯子才用一點多次欸這樣跟一次性的塑膠杯幾乎沒有什麼差別了欸嗯\n\n09:35.115 --> 10:03.361\n這一點的確有挑戰跟委員報告那我們除了是說這個這個補助的那我們也有補助地方地方政府來做那像討論事他就是有在職棒或說我們在一些對所以我建議啦本席建議您應該把它改成封閉式的場域而不要繼續在流動性的場域使用循環杯額然後去比較一下這樣成效是不是很好是不是有變好那你再來決定是不是要繼續這個政策以免又像我們這樣不符合國外\n\n10:05.323 --> 10:07.171\n市場塑膠袋用量非常多\n\n10:08.311 --> 10:36.631\n所以這個就是您提到的當然你可能很難達到禁用但是我們至少要達到持平我們從2000年到現在2020年塑膠袋的用量是激增35%所以每個人每年平均用780個塑膠袋是比歐盟每年使用的198個多出4倍所以我們現在不但改變目標我們還快要放棄了嘛\n\n10:37.984 --> 10:59.693\n對我想這個陳文你提供這個資訊也跟我剛剛講的一樣嘛就是說傳統市場的癱瘓這些使用的塑膠袋真的量太高太高了因為時間快到所以請您稍微看一下之前呢行政院有針對你用什麼單位作為標準提出審查意見覺得你們不應該再用一個一個\n\n11:00.993 --> 11:15.940\n好本席在這邊做最後一張的建議經濟部其實呢源頭就有數據去顯示你塑膠袋內銷的量是多少那這個只是塑膠袋喔不包括你的吸管杯子等等的你從100年到112年就從14萬噸到20.8萬噸\n\n11:21.403 --> 11:21.443\n陳婉嫻委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.219,"end":35.3,"text":"主席早 官員早 各位同事早我請部長 請薛部長好 陳委員早好 部長今天各大報都是頭版啊去年第一季就說去年說今年的第一季會拍板所有的碳費費率啊還有執法公告等等的但我們現在第一季只剩下4天就要結束了"},{"start":36.261,"end":55.572,"text":"所以很多業者都非常的緊張因為上次我們討論這件事的時候電費還沒漲嘛是現在電費要漲碳費又不知道要收多少錢所以請問上次我們有建議您把CPI納入你們開會審議會的內容"},{"start":57.233,"end":58.514,"text":"有納入非常非常好。"},{"start":87.433,"end":87.473,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":117.733,"end":142.162,"text":"結果你們的會議紀錄只有一頁啦上面是講到說我們要用科學的證據還有各國的數據這是委員建議的嘛但你也當過教授有帶過研究生啊如果第一次開會還拿不出各國的狀況這樣不是也會被你罵吧因為第一次事實上主要目的是讓大家了解整個碳有價委員會的責任"},{"start":143.802,"end":144.042,"text":"各國的數據還沒有齊全"},{"start":161.073,"end":178.491,"text":"可是現在就像剛剛林委員質詢的一攬拉麵都漲價了290變310所以很多企業主他們真的也會緊張必須要把這些成本考量進去明年的預算沒有辦法編請問下一次第三次的審議會你們要討論什麼"},{"start":181.705,"end":203.082,"text":"我想就漸漸會進入到實質費率的決定的部分包括陳委員剛剛講的CPI以及包括電費的漲價以及央行的升息等等我覺得委員會他們都會把它考慮進去這一點也是我覺得反而沒有辦法在3月底以前決定費率不見得是壞事"},{"start":204.403,"end":226.165,"text":"非常期待你們第三次的審議會到底可不可以訂出費率啊徵收對象啊等等的執法啦這個我覺得昭偉人真的太好了去年昭偉就已經說我們要凍結因為沒有辦法完備碳定價相關法規配套可是今天我們還是在討論一樣的問題"},{"start":230.246,"end":248.626,"text":"這個我想等一下會有非常非常多的委員繼續追問您是否今天可以解凍但目前看起來去年解凍的原因去年凍結原因跟今天我們要討論的是沒有什麼太大的進步啦所以等一下也許很多委員還會陸續再問您吧好"},{"start":252.779,"end":272.532,"text":"再來上次也有講到說因為我是不孕症醫師也是生殖醫師嘛所以塑膠、塑料已經不只是污染環境的議題它更是一個健康的議題也被證實是影響我們現在不孕症居高不下的發生率所以未來呢"},{"start":274.471,"end":297.998,"text":"去兩年前有看到175個國家齊聚在肯亞開始談論這個重要的國際法案今年底會推出全球塑膠公約而且這是具有法律約束力的從生產到消費到整個週期的條約請問環境部現在有做什麼因應關於今年年底會發布全球塑膠公約來臨嗎?"},{"start":300.479,"end":314.112,"text":"給委員報告事實上我們已經針對2024年在今年年底這個剛剛委員所提到塑膠公約會立法來完成大家朝向檢証人目標環境部資源循環促進法"},{"start":314.813,"end":342.051,"text":"也積極的在推動事實上我們的草案也已經預告了嘛吼那另外就是包括一次性的塑膠鹽頭減量我們來看對您提到一次性您提到一次性塑膠2018年李應元署長當時就推出了階段性的策略說2030年我們要全面禁用塑膠袋啊一次性的餐具飲料杯吸管等等"},{"start":343.152,"end":357.952,"text":"當時呢臺灣非常的驕傲環保團體都表示肯定覺得我們政府終於做對事情了我們可能會成為全球第一個管制吸管國家的塑膠吸管的國家結果去年8月"},{"start":358.533,"end":369.124,"text":"我們突然把我們的目標變成手段說現進用不再是唯一的方向並且提出2050淨零轉型資源循環零廢棄關鍵戰略行動計畫非常長的一個計畫說我們現在中長期的推動重點是減少50%"},{"start":381.572,"end":407.119,"text":"請問這樣算不算是一個政策跳票?給委員報告事實上我們當然有一些理想期待去推動但是也因為台灣一些特殊的環境在推動上面也碰到一些阻力比如說當我們要減塑我們的傳統市場我們的癱瘓等等事實上也造成一些挑戰原因是我們也必須顧及到民生他"},{"start":407.679,"end":412.202,"text":"因此,全球正在減速,我們本來是模範生,現在反而是開倒車啦。既然你提到了減少50%,裡面就包括零售業的包裝減量,還有"},{"start":436.335,"end":462.26,"text":"上次我們提到的循環杯嘛這個只要是購物節部長你到超商就可以看到這樣子的畫面當然您規範在資本額一定金額以上的業者電商業者等都很好可是呢其實啊像這樣子在超商販賣有很多是大的平台上的小的店家比如說微電商等等"},{"start":463.36,"end":492.52,"text":"他們的交易量有時候雖然看起來不大但是整個加起來是很大的我在這邊也要提醒部長您是否應該要規範這些微電商在大平台上也要使用綠包裝呢是 我想陳委員講到重點我基本上也請我們部內的同仁要去盤點整個這些包裝裡面材料包材的使用到底哪一部分佔最大中事實上反而是中小"},{"start":493.16,"end":496.443,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":516,"end":542.326,"text":"再來我也很想問上次我們兩個討論循環杯網路已經有22.6萬人看了所以大家很關心你的後續循環杯的補助你補助了半年後來就沒有繼續補助請問原因為何呢我是不是請我們同仁來回答一下循環杯的補助的部分是那跟委員報告那是我們推動初期的這個事辦那後來就用法令強制的方式來做"},{"start":543.697,"end":571.439,"text":"好 我們來看喔總共你補助的期間門市借杯有7家所以我們做出了26萬個循環杯花了1000多萬活動借杯0喔好 上次您給的業報啊這個循環杯它總共被借用是34.7萬借用喔除起來每個杯子才用一點多次欸這樣跟一次性的塑膠杯幾乎沒有什麼差別了欸嗯"},{"start":575.115,"end":603.361,"text":"這一點的確有挑戰跟委員報告那我們除了是說這個這個補助的那我們也有補助地方地方政府來做那像討論事他就是有在職棒或說我們在一些對所以我建議啦本席建議您應該把它改成封閉式的場域而不要繼續在流動性的場域使用循環杯額然後去比較一下這樣成效是不是很好是不是有變好那你再來決定是不是要繼續這個政策以免又像我們這樣不符合國外"},{"start":605.323,"end":607.171,"text":"市場塑膠袋用量非常多"},{"start":608.311,"end":636.631,"text":"所以這個就是您提到的當然你可能很難達到禁用但是我們至少要達到持平我們從2000年到現在2020年塑膠袋的用量是激增35%所以每個人每年平均用780個塑膠袋是比歐盟每年使用的198個多出4倍所以我們現在不但改變目標我們還快要放棄了嘛"},{"start":637.984,"end":659.693,"text":"對我想這個陳文你提供這個資訊也跟我剛剛講的一樣嘛就是說傳統市場的癱瘓這些使用的塑膠袋真的量太高太高了因為時間快到所以請您稍微看一下之前呢行政院有針對你用什麼單位作為標準提出審查意見覺得你們不應該再用一個一個"},{"start":660.993,"end":675.94,"text":"好本席在這邊做最後一張的建議經濟部其實呢源頭就有數據去顯示你塑膠袋內銷的量是多少那這個只是塑膠袋喔不包括你的吸管杯子等等的你從100年到112年就從14萬噸到20.8萬噸"},{"start":681.403,"end":681.443,"text":"陳婉嫻委員"}]}}}}