{"id":150440,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150440","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5b9847868cfcdf265f9597c3f3f044368f8ba9b0039caa7a67928a3d90b696a425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:32:29 - 09:46:08","影片長度":"00:13:39","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-9"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":819,"end_time":"2024-03-27T09:46:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T09:32:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":149,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時31分）謝謝主席。麻煩邱部長以及政治作戰局局長。"],["主席：邱部長、政戰局局長。"],["邱部長國正：召委好。"],["王委員定宇：兩位早。部長，我一開始讓你看一下，我電話其實打了很多次，我在詢答你之前，剛剛還請助理最新再打了一次，你看一下現象。","（撥打電話）"],["王委員定宇：08-3622064，兩位，這個電話應該看得出來它在哪裡吧？這是馬祖的。這是什麼電話，局長知道嗎？"],["陳局長育琳：心輔專線的電話。"],["王委員定宇：心輔專線電話。"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：心輔專線電話要不要24小時有人接聽？"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：心輔電話沒有下班的吧？"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們都不希望我們部隊，你知道每個弟兄姐妹都是我們家庭的一分子，每個人大概大大小小有的是因為財務，有的是因為感情，有的我們不知道什麼原因，我們都希望照顧好每一位年輕的官士兵。所以心輔專線，我第一個不講它有沒有效，至少它要打得通。"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：這個資訊來自於國防部政戰局提供的服務網耶！我們從昨天打到今天都是什麼，你知道嗎？空號！"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：我如果需要協助的時候，我打去是空號，誰知道我打的是空號？局長，為什麼有這事情？"],["陳局長育琳：是，跟委員報告，馬祖地區的部分我去了解一下，因為他們的心衛中心有做調整，那是不是在專線的部分……"],["王委員定宇：我跟你講，我現在秀你這個服務網頁……"],["陳局長育琳：瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：是你們現在的服務網頁。"],["陳局長育琳：是，我們也下去檢討。"],["王委員定宇：號碼不是我去拿舊的，是你們現在……"],["陳局長育琳：瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：你現在拿手機出來看……"],["陳局長育琳：瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：就是這個號碼！"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：政治作戰局公布的號碼就是08-3622064。"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：現在打它就是空號！"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：這兩天社會沸沸揚揚都在檢討這個事情了，你們怎麼還會自己提供的服務線還是一個空號！然後……"],["陳局長育琳：是，我們檢討。"],["王委員定宇：你不知道原因啊！你現在可能也不知道為什麼。"],["陳局長育琳：是，因為我們……"],["王委員定宇：會不會，還有其他空號？"],["陳局長育琳：我們下去瞭解，因為我們都有要求……"],["王委員定宇：我不曉得耶……"],["陳局長育琳：我們下去檢討瞭解一下。"],["王委員定宇：以前在部隊裡面，如果有這個電話，應該上級長官三不五時會派人打一遍嘛！"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：在不在班？有沒有到勤？有沒有開小差？會有一些查核跟管理，一打就知道是不是空號了，現在馬祖是空號已經證實了，這是你們給的資訊，你不要跟我講你們已經換了，你這個網頁沒換不是一樣嗎？"],["陳局長育琳：是，瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：然後其他單位的是不是空號，不曉得啊？"],["陳局長育琳：我們下去全面檢討。"],["王委員定宇：這是24小時的救命專線耶！部長，你怎麼看這個事情？"],["邱部長國正：是，我知道，從剛剛局長講的，我們承認有問題，我們全面檢討。"],["王委員定宇：這其實是管理上……"],["邱部長國正：是，管理方面的，我們強化。"],["王委員定宇：部長，其實我剛才講，發生一些不幸的事件，當然我們都希望不會有，不管是官、士、兵發生不幸事件，不管找得出原因或是有的真的找不出原因，都是家庭跟國家的損失，沒有一個家人看到自己孩子，面對這樣的事情可以接受的，很難啦！但我不是說全部一定是部隊的錯，因為它原因太多元了，所以我現在要請教部長，包含局長也聽一下。"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：我看近一個月國軍發生輕生事件，這一個月有7位嘛！你們有沒有統計過去1年，我們部隊裡面發生這樣的不幸事件大概有幾件？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這每一年都有統計，數量我們也不好在這邊講，最近這一連串的事件的確很遺憾，但我剛剛在記者訪問當中我也表達，也跟委員報告，這種事情發生以後，對當事人家庭跟部隊都是一個很大的遺憾。但我們絕對不遮……"],["王委員定宇：部長，其實我列這個，個案我尊重你們調查，因為有的家屬不願意人家再提起，每個人有個人原因，營內、營外發生狀態也不一樣，一個、一個個案我們可以私下去關心，基於體恤家屬或者有些調查過程甚至於仿效作用，我不會在這邊談這些個案。但我建議部裡面幾件事情，第一個，過去一年或兩年，這類不幸事件營內外共幾件？第二個，事前有癥候、有症狀的有幾件？占比多少？沒有癥候的有幾件？比例多少？第三個，事後查得出原因的有幾件？比例多少？查不出因素的有幾件？比例有多少？這些查得出因素的，主要因素前三名是什麼？我為什麼要這樣一條一條列？我們在管理上永遠都會有漏洞，這個其實是心輔安全網絡，這些在部隊裡面的弟兄姐妹是用生命找出這些漏洞，我們應該把這個洞想辦法補起來。怎麼補起來呢？比方說我們這個網絡如果有太高的比例事前無法掌握癥候，是不是我們的心輔體系，你看下一個表，我們現在體系是由地方的營、連、排、班級基層領導幹部看一下有什麼狀況？你們還有一個app每個禮拜要勾嘛！"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：勾自己「我有沒有輕生的傾向？」，我一勾我就不能放假了，我哪會勾啊！我一勾馬上被約談了，你懂我的意思嗎？我們的班排幹部本身就是年輕人，他也沒有心輔的專業，他還要幫你去評估哪個兵、哪個官現在有問題，然後我們還要自評，每個禮拜要勾、勾、勾app，我想要被約去喝咖啡就一定說「我非常有這個傾向」，就約去喝咖啡了嘛！所以這個體系到底是不是一個漏洞，該怎麼補強，這是一個事情。第二個，我事前有掌握徵兆了，結果不幸還發生了，是不是我們整個輔導體系的資源量能不夠？你看一下我們的配置，從這一個心理衛生中心二級單位的編制，再來地區心衛中心就像地區醫院的概念有14個，然後實際數量到班多少個，具有專業證照的人數比例，尤其二級心理衛生單位，我們現在實際員額有到的是382個，其中有證照才60個，然後下面到班、排、營根本沒有這些證照！我等於是讓班長去肩負我下面的兵「欸，你們乖一點喔，不要給我出問題喔！」，大概平常兵就這樣管而已啦！等到發生不幸了，就開始問鄰兵有沒有聽到什麼？","我今天不是要指責局長或者部長，我們都希望不要再發生，所以當這些年輕人用生命幫你找到漏洞，我們卻不把它改掉、不把洞補起來的話，我們對不起自己所擔任的這個職務嘛！這些袍澤都是我們的家人，我們不希望家人遇到困難最無助的時候，打電話去是空號，平常沒有被發現，事後又找不出原因，這不好，這不僅不好，家人可能會一輩子不知道為什麼我這個孩子走了，你懂意思嗎？"],["邱部長國正：瞭解，是，我們檢討。"],["王委員定宇：所以部長，我剛才列這些因素，其實你們裡面管理的專家一定很多，去列一下我們現有的管理機制，坦白講，心理輔導或精神衛生這個部分，我都會建議國防部多尋求外部協助，外部的地區醫院還有專業、衛福部，由外部來協助有兩個好處，第一個它專業，第二個我們是用整體國家的量能來協助。還有一個什麼好處呢？我去尋求這個協助的時候有保密原則，部隊不會知道我有這個情形，我不會被列為下一波汰除的對象，這對中高階其實有影響！我現在準備要占少將缺了，或者我要升上校缺了，我會去勾心輔讓你來輔導我？如果你這個人有問題，我再勾你把你升上來，萬一出事怎麼辦？會有這個問題，可是心理輔導是一個專業，也應該接受保密。所以部長，你是一個做一天事就會把一天事做好的人，這個事情當我們證照不足、基層能量不足，是不是尋求衛福部及其他轄下相關的醫院甚至於學校專業的專家？我們的軍士官兵可以去尋求協助，費用由國防部這邊來開支，那邊還可以守著保密原則，只要他是自動去的就保密，我們輔導去的當然我們就會知道。部長，可不可以往那個方向走？"],["邱部長國正：是，跟委員報告，委員講得很有道理，我們的確有時候有做得不夠周延的地方，但我要說明這三道防線，我沒有推給他們喔！因為第一道防線，沒有錯，它是營、連、排級甚至於班長級，他經驗各方面都不夠的，但我們並沒有指望他要出面去幫他輔導，我們是期望他能關切。所以我們現在是講他只要關切就會發覺問題，這我們來強化。"],["王委員定宇：部長，我知道我當然不會叫他去做，因為他不是專業人員，你其實是叫他先看一下有沒有狀況，有狀況趕快回報。"],["邱部長國正：對，反映以後，我們會進一步……"],["王委員定宇：我現在是擔心這樣子的查資系統不足。"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：因為時間關係，我最後問兩件事情，我帶過去，局長可以先回座。第一個，坑子口，因為涉及機敏我把裡面一些標識我都拿掉。坑子口是我們裝甲部隊非常重要的訓場，甚至於有些項目都只能在這裡來做，坑子口這個營區原來11個工項，前幾年因為原物料上漲，所以你們有減項繼續讓它發包施作，減了4項，現在正在進行中的有7項，而目前這7項進行中。根據我們訓場以及陸軍的規劃，大概M1A2戰車今年底來，到明年上去做實彈的操作，有一些科目是可以做的，沒有錯！但部長，我們希望更好，為什麼能更好？因為有4項你們把它延後，規劃是在2027年到2031年才要做，而且預算還沒劃出來，大概是七億多的預算把它往後延了，到時候如果預算排擠又把它往後延，會產生什麼影響呢？這4個沒有做的話，我們的連帶排攻擊的演練就沒辦法做，我們所謂的運動射擊聯繫沒辦法做，現在是把運動跟聯繫切開來，一般民眾可能不瞭解，運動聯繫就是你的行動跟你的射擊，我們現在變成只能暫時切開來，如果真的編得出預算還要到2031年才能夠具備這能力。","這影響多大呢？M1A2比M60強就強在這兩項，還有一些類似項目，它掌握僚車整個運動射擊相關的部分，所以這七億多，按照你們規劃要到2027年才開始執行，我個人建議，如果要發揮我們年底開始接裝這些M1A2T的話，這在當時就是放在同一個階段要執行的4個項目，共七億多，現在我不曉得它會到8億？還是會更少？就這4個項目，能不能在今年的預算把它納入？我們儘快讓坑子口成為一個完整的、可以訓練M1A2裝甲車，讓這個車子發揮到最大的戰力。部長。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，的確我們臺灣現在欠缺這種戰甲車，一面走一面打，能夠運動跟射擊結合，很難！我今天可以講說把這個預算編列進去以後，我可以要他們快，但我不敢跟委員保證明年我們的戰車能在這邊運動跟射擊……"],["王委員定宇：他還有工程時間啦！"],["邱部長國正：這我們還要一點時間來……"],["王委員定宇：每慢一年編預算，這個能力就會往後延……"],["邱部長國正：那當然是。"],["王委員定宇：當然你看全局，預算可能會有排擠，可能跟湖口的測試場域會有一些聯動關係，但我的意思是，你本身是裝甲出身的，這幾樣能力沒有訓到的話，其實M1A2T車就可惜了，所以我真的建請部長去思考這4個項目不要挪到這麼後面，是不是可以開始來進行？而且就算編進去發包，搞不好還流，越慢它就會拖到。","陸軍參謀長，有關無人機防禦系統，我上次特別提出，你們的標案是一項一項測試，那是有問題的，你說：不會，絕對整合。我今天有把你們的標單帶來，是分開單項測試，這個部分請你督導，我有時間再細問，謝謝你、謝謝主席。"],["陳參謀長建義：我再向委員報告。"],["邱部長國正：是，我們請陸軍再加強這兩個工作，謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：下一個進行詢答的是羅美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","洪申翰","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","林德福","羅智強","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","張啓楷","王鴻薇"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1132001_00016"}},"transcript":{"id":"150440","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150440","tool":"pyannote","id":"150440-pyannote"},"job_id":"AuRTbY9Y8u7KTWCq","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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\"start\": 809.435, \"end\": 809.535, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 809.535, \"end\": 809.695, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 809.695, \"end\": 809.775, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 809.775, \"end\": 809.795, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 809.795, \"end\": 809.815, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 809.815, \"end\": 809.835, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 809.835, \"end\": 809.875, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 809.875, \"end\": 810.015, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 810.015, \"end\": 810.376, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 810.376, \"end\": 810.396, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 810.396, \"end\": 810.416, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:14,794\n巡打你之前剛剛還請助理最新再打了一次你看一下現象來聲音讓他出來\n\n2\n00:00:31,994 --> 00:00:36,258\n部長083622064兩位這個電話應該看得出來他在哪裡吧這是馬祖的這是什麼電話我們局長知道嗎新府專線的電話\n\n3\n00:00:58,052 --> 00:01:09,849\n新府專線電話要不要24小時有人接聽是新府電話沒有下班的吧是我們都不希望我們部隊你知道每個弟兄姊妹都是我們的我們家庭的一份子\n\n4\n00:01:10,509 --> 00:01:39,088\n每個人大概大大小小有的是財務有的感情有的我們不知道什麼原因我們都希望照顧好每一位年輕的官士兵所以新府專線我第一個不講他有沒有效至少他打得通是這個資訊來自於國防部陣戰局提供的服務網欸我們從昨天打到今天都是什麼你知道嗎空號是那我如果需要協助的時候我打去是空號\n\n5\n00:01:40,530 --> 00:02:06,721\n誰知道我打的是空號?局長為什麼有這事情?跟委員報告一下馬祖地區的部分我去了解一下因為他們的行為中心有做調整那是不是在專線的部分我跟你講我現在秀你這個服務網頁是你們現在的服務網頁我們也下去檢查號碼不是我去拿舊的是你們現在你現在拿手機出來看就是這個號碼政治作戰局公布的號碼就是083622064\n\n6\n00:02:09,743 --> 00:02:14,706\n現在打它就是空號這兩天社會沸沸揚揚都在檢討這個事情了你們怎麼還會自己提供的服務線還是一個空號然後你不知道原因啊你現在可能應該也不知道為什麼會不會還有其他空號\n\n7\n00:02:31,264 --> 00:02:51,910\n我們下去瞭解因為我們都有要求我不曉得我們下去檢討在部隊裡面如果有這個電話應該上級長官三不五時會派人打一遍嘛是在不在班有沒有到勤有沒有開小差會一些查核跟管理一打就知道是不是空號了你現在\n\n8\n00:02:53,793 --> 00:03:06,667\n連馬祖是空號已經證實了這是你們資訊你不要跟我講說你們已經換了換了你這個網頁沒換不是一樣是了解然後其他單位的是不是空號不曉得啊我們下去全面檢討這是24小時的救命專線\n\n9\n00:03:08,777 --> 00:03:11,359\n會發生一些不幸的事件,我們都希望不會有\n\n10\n00:03:27,250 --> 00:03:42,367\n不管是官士兵發生不幸事件不管找得出原因有的真的找不出原因都是家庭跟國家的損失每一個家人看到自己孩子面對這樣的事情可以接受的很難拿\n\n11\n00:03:43,737 --> 00:04:06,206\n所以但我不是說全部一定是部隊的錯因為他原因太多元了所以我現在要請教包含部長那個局長你也聽一下我看一下近一個月國軍下一個國軍發生輕生事件這是這一個月有七位嘛你們有沒有統計過去一年就好了我們部隊裡面發生這樣的不幸事件大概有幾件\n\n12\n00:04:07,014 --> 00:04:30,023\n我跟委員報告每年都有統計數量我們也不好在這邊這樣講所以最近這一點這樣的事情的確很遺憾但我剛剛在記者當中我也表達也跟委員做報告任何事情這種發生以後他當事人家庭跟部隊都一個很大的遺憾請我列這個各案我尊重你們因為有的家屬不願意人家再提起\n\n13\n00:04:30,842 --> 00:04:59,053\n有的原因每個人有個人原因營內營外發生狀態也不一樣一個一個個案我們可以私下去關心那基於體恤家屬也好或者有些調查過程甚至於仿效作用我不會在那邊談這個案我現在是問我建議部裡面幾件事情第一個過去一年或兩年這類不幸事件營內外共幾件第二個事前有真後有真狀的有幾件佔比多少\n\n14\n00:05:00,051 --> 00:05:17,658\n沒有徵後的有幾件比例多少?第三個事後查得出原因的有幾件比例多少?查不出因素的有幾件比例有多少?那這查得出因素的主要因素前三名是什麼?我為什麼要這樣一條一條列?\n\n15\n00:05:19,019 --> 00:05:33,636\n我們在管理上永遠都會有漏洞這個其實是心腹安全網絡這些在部隊裡面的弟兄姊妹是用生命找出這些漏洞我們應該把這個洞想要補起來怎麼補起來呢\n\n16\n00:05:36,820 --> 00:06:05,363\n比方說我們這個網絡如果有太高的比例事前無法掌握增厚那是不是我們的心服體系因為按照你看我們下一個表我們按照現在的體系是由地方的銀聯牌班級基層幹部看一下有什麼狀況你們還有一個APP嘛每個禮拜要勾嘛勾自己我有沒有親身的傾向我一勾我就不能放假了我哪會勾啊我一勾馬上被約談了\n\n17\n00:06:06,772 --> 00:06:26,101\n你懂我意思嗎我們的班牌幹部本身就是年輕人他也沒有心腹的專業他還要幫你去評估哪個兵哪個官現在有問題然後我們還要自評每個禮拜要勾勾勾勾APP我想要去喝咖啡我一定說我非常有這個傾向就約去喝咖啡了嘛\n\n18\n00:06:26,860 --> 00:06:43,427\n所以我說這個體系到底是不是一個漏洞該怎麼補強這是一個事情第二個我事情有長過徵兆了結果不幸還發生了那是我們整個輔導體系資源量能不夠你看一下我們的配置從這一個\n\n19\n00:06:46,244 --> 00:07:07,190\n為二級單位的編制地區新衛就地區醫院的概念14個然後實際數量到班多少個具有專業證照的人數比例尤其二級心理衛生單位我們現在到班就是實際原額有到的是382個有證照才60個然後下面到班牌已經根本沒有這些證照\n\n20\n00:07:09,637 --> 00:07:25,257\n我等於是讓班長去肩負我下面的兵欸你們乖一點喔不要給我出問題喔大概平常兵就這樣管而已啦那等到發生不幸了就開始問林兵有沒有聽到什麼所以我今天不是要指責局長或者說部長\n\n21\n00:07:26,550 --> 00:07:54,684\n我們都希望不要再發生所以當這些年輕人用生命幫你找到漏洞我們卻不把它改掉的話不把洞補起來的話我們對不起自己我們擔任這個職務嘛我們這些袍澤都是我們的家人啊我們不希望我們的家人遇到困難最無助的時候打電話去吃空耗平常沒有被發現事後找不出原因這不好這不僅不好\n\n22\n00:07:55,834 --> 00:08:15,986\n可能家人會一輩子不知道為什麼我這個孩子走了你懂我意思嗎所以部長我剛才列這些因素其實裡面管理的專家一定很多去列一下我們現有的管理機制坦白講心理輔導或精神衛生這個部分我都會建議國防部多尋求外部協助\n\n23\n00:08:17,034 --> 00:08:44,925\n外部的地區醫院專業衛福部由外部來協助有兩個好處第一個他專業第二個我們是整體國家的量能來協助還有一個什麼好處呢我去尋求這個協助的時候有保密原則我部隊不會知道我有這個情形我不會列為下一波太儲的對象這對中高階其實有影響我現在準備要站少將缺了或者我要升上校缺了我會去勾新府讓你輔導我\n\n24\n00:08:46,701 --> 00:09:03,967\n問你這個問題我在勾你把你伸上來那萬一出事怎麼辦會有這個問題可是心理輔導是一個專業也應該接受保密所以部長你是一個做一天事就把事做好的人這個事情當我們證照不足基層能量不足是不是尋求\n\n25\n00:09:05,707 --> 00:09:19,920\n衛福部及其他轄下相關的醫院甚至於學校專業的專家我們的軍事官兵可以去尋求協助費用國防部這邊來開支那邊還可以守著保密原則它是自動去的保密我們輔導去當然我們就會知道\n\n26\n00:09:21,795 --> 00:09:47,607\n國防部長,可不可以這樣往這個方向走?是,跟委員報告,委員長很有道理。我們的確有地方有時候做得不夠周圍的地方。但我要說明一下,這三道防線,我沒有推給他們。因為第一道防線沒有錯,它是迎聯、排擠甚至是頒獎級。它經驗各方面是不夠的。但我們並沒有指望它要出面去幫它輔導。我們期望它能夠關切。所以我們現在講說,它只要關切,它就會發覺問題。\n\n27\n00:09:49,048 --> 00:10:16,958\n我不會叫他去做,你叫他先看一下有沒有狀況我現在擔心這樣子的查資系統不足因為時間關係,我最後問兩件事情我帶過去,局長可以先回座第一個,坑子口因為涉及機敏,我把裡面一些標示我都拿掉坑子口是我們裝甲部隊非常重要的訓場\n\n28\n00:10:18,402 --> 00:10:37,959\n甚至於有些項目都只能在這裡來做那坑子口這個營區原來11個工項因為前幾年原物料上漲所以你們有減項繼續讓它發包施作減了4項現在正在進行中的7項那目前這7項進行中根據我們的這個訓場以及陸軍的規劃\n\n29\n00:10:42,463 --> 00:10:58,547\n大概M1A2的戰車今年底來到明年上去做實彈的操作有一些科目是可以做的沒有錯有些科目是可以做的沒有錯但部長我們希望更好為什麼更好因為有四項你們把它延後規劃是在2027年到2031年才要做\n\n30\n00:11:02,148 --> 00:11:18,199\n而且那個預算還沒劃出來那個大概是7億多的預算把它往後延了到時候如果預算排擠又把它往後延會產生什麼影響呢這四個沒有做的話我們的連帶排攻擊的演練就沒辦法做\n\n31\n00:11:19,338 --> 00:11:43,637\n我們的所謂的運動涉及聯繫沒辦法做現在是把運動跟聯繫切開來一般民眾可能不了解運動聯繫就是你的行動跟你的涉及我們現在變只能暫時用切開來要一直要到如果真的變得出預算還要到2031年才能夠具備這個能力這影響多大呢M1A2比M60強就強在這兩項還有一些類似的項目\n\n32\n00:11:47,589 --> 00:11:49,293\n長遼車運動涉及相關部分7億多按照規劃到2027年才開始執行\n\n33\n00:11:58,479 --> 00:12:20,588\n我個人的建議如果要發揮我們年底開始接裝這些M1A2T的話這當時就是放在同一個階段要執行的4個項目7億多現在我不曉得它會到8億還是會更少就這4個項目能不能在今年的預算把它納入我們盡快讓坑子口成為一個完整的可以訓練M1A2裝甲車的這一個讓這個車子發揮到最大的戰力部長\n\n34\n00:12:25,782 --> 00:12:46,173\n我跟委員報告,的確我們台南現在欠學習講說像這戰甲車一面走一面打能夠運動跟射擊那種結合很難那我今天可以講說把這個預算編列進去以後我可以要他們快但我不敢跟委員保證明年我的戰甲車在這邊運動跟射擊同步來他還有工程時間每慢一年編預算\n\n35\n00:12:52,106 --> 00:13:19,325\n這個能力就會往後延當然預算你看全局可能會有排擠可能跟湖口的測試場域會有些聯動關係但我的意思說這幾樣能力你本身是裝甲出身的這幾個沒有訓導的話其實M1A2T車就可惜了所以我真的建請部長去思考這四個項目不要挪到這麼後面是不是可以開始來進行而且你就算編進去發包搞不好還留你越慢它就會拖到然後那個陸軍參謀長\n\n36\n00:13:21,306 --> 00:13:30,416\n有關我們無人機防禦系統我上次特別提出你們標案是一項一項測試那是有問題的你說不會絕對整合我今天有把你們標單帶來是分開單項測試這個部分請你督導我有時間再細問謝謝你謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t14794\t巡打你之前剛剛還請助理最新再打了一次你看一下現象來聲音讓他出來\n31994\t36258\t部長083622064兩位這個電話應該看得出來他在哪裡吧這是馬祖的這是什麼電話我們局長知道嗎新府專線的電話\n58052\t69849\t新府專線電話要不要24小時有人接聽是新府電話沒有下班的吧是我們都不希望我們部隊你知道每個弟兄姊妹都是我們的我們家庭的一份子\n70509\t99088\t每個人大概大大小小有的是財務有的感情有的我們不知道什麼原因我們都希望照顧好每一位年輕的官士兵所以新府專線我第一個不講他有沒有效至少他打得通是這個資訊來自於國防部陣戰局提供的服務網欸我們從昨天打到今天都是什麼你知道嗎空號是那我如果需要協助的時候我打去是空號\n100530\t126721\t誰知道我打的是空號?局長為什麼有這事情?跟委員報告一下馬祖地區的部分我去了解一下因為他們的行為中心有做調整那是不是在專線的部分我跟你講我現在秀你這個服務網頁是你們現在的服務網頁我們也下去檢查號碼不是我去拿舊的是你們現在你現在拿手機出來看就是這個號碼政治作戰局公布的號碼就是083622064\n129743\t134706\t現在打它就是空號這兩天社會沸沸揚揚都在檢討這個事情了你們怎麼還會自己提供的服務線還是一個空號然後你不知道原因啊你現在可能應該也不知道為什麼會不會還有其他空號\n151264\t171910\t我們下去瞭解因為我們都有要求我不曉得我們下去檢討在部隊裡面如果有這個電話應該上級長官三不五時會派人打一遍嘛是在不在班有沒有到勤有沒有開小差會一些查核跟管理一打就知道是不是空號了你現在\n173793\t186667\t連馬祖是空號已經證實了這是你們資訊你不要跟我講說你們已經換了換了你這個網頁沒換不是一樣是 了解然後其他單位的是不是空號不曉得啊我們下去全面檢討這是24小時的救命專線\n188777\t191359\t會發生一些不幸的事件,我們都希望不會有\n207250\t222367\t不管是官士兵發生不幸事件不管找得出原因有的真的找不出原因都是家庭跟國家的損失每一個家人看到自己孩子面對這樣的事情可以接受的很難拿\n223737\t246206\t所以但我不是說全部一定是部隊的錯因為他原因太多元了所以我現在要請教包含部長那個局長你也聽一下我看一下近一個月國軍下一個國軍發生輕生事件這是這一個月有七位嘛你們有沒有統計過去一年就好了我們部隊裡面發生這樣的不幸事件大概有幾件\n247014\t270023\t我跟委員報告每年都有統計數量我們也不好在這邊這樣講所以最近這一點這樣的事情的確很遺憾但我剛剛在記者當中我也表達也跟委員做報告任何事情這種發生以後他當事人家庭跟部隊都一個很大的遺憾請我列這個各案我尊重你們因為有的家屬不願意人家再提起\n270842\t299053\t有的原因每個人有個人原因營內營外發生狀態也不一樣一個一個個案我們可以私下去關心那基於體恤家屬也好或者有些調查過程甚至於仿效作用我不會在那邊談這個案我現在是問我建議部裡面幾件事情第一個過去一年或兩年這類不幸事件營內外共幾件第二個事前有真後有真狀的有幾件佔比多少\n300051\t317658\t沒有徵後的有幾件比例多少?第三個事後查得出原因的有幾件比例多少?查不出因素的有幾件比例有多少?那這查得出因素的主要因素前三名是什麼?我為什麼要這樣一條一條列?\n319019\t333636\t我們在管理上永遠都會有漏洞這個其實是心腹安全網絡這些在部隊裡面的弟兄姊妹是用生命找出這些漏洞我們應該把這個洞想要補起來怎麼補起來呢\n336820\t365363\t比方說我們這個網絡如果有太高的比例事前無法掌握增厚那是不是我們的心服體系因為按照你看我們下一個表我們按照現在的體系是由地方的銀聯牌班級基層幹部看一下有什麼狀況你們還有一個APP嘛每個禮拜要勾嘛勾自己我有沒有親身的傾向我一勾我就不能放假了我哪會勾啊我一勾馬上被約談了\n366772\t386101\t你懂我意思嗎我們的班牌幹部本身就是年輕人他也沒有心腹的專業他還要幫你去評估哪個兵哪個官現在有問題然後我們還要自評每個禮拜要勾勾勾勾APP我想要去喝咖啡我一定說我非常有這個傾向就約去喝咖啡了嘛\n386860\t403427\t所以我說這個體系到底是不是一個漏洞該怎麼補強這是一個事情第二個我事情有長過徵兆了結果不幸還發生了那是我們整個輔導體系資源量能不夠你看一下我們的配置從這一個\n406244\t427190\t為二級單位的編制地區新衛就地區醫院的概念14個然後實際數量到班多少個具有專業證照的人數比例尤其二級心理衛生單位我們現在到班就是實際原額有到的是382個有證照才60個然後下面到班牌已經根本沒有這些證照\n429637\t445257\t我等於是讓班長去肩負我下面的兵欸你們乖一點喔不要給我出問題喔大概平常兵就這樣管而已啦那等到發生不幸了就開始問林兵有沒有聽到什麼所以我今天不是要指責局長或者說部長\n446550\t474684\t我們都希望不要再發生所以當這些年輕人用生命幫你找到漏洞我們卻不把它改掉的話不把洞補起來的話我們對不起自己我們擔任這個職務嘛我們這些袍澤都是我們的家人啊我們不希望我們的家人遇到困難最無助的時候打電話去吃空耗平常沒有被發現事後找不出原因這不好 這不僅不好\n475834\t495986\t可能家人會一輩子不知道為什麼我這個孩子走了你懂我意思嗎所以部長我剛才列這些因素其實裡面管理的專家一定很多去列一下我們現有的管理機制坦白講心理輔導或精神衛生這個部分我都會建議國防部多尋求外部協助\n497034\t524925\t外部的地區醫院專業衛福部由外部來協助有兩個好處第一個他專業第二個我們是整體國家的量能來協助還有一個什麼好處呢我去尋求這個協助的時候有保密原則我部隊不會知道我有這個情形我不會列為下一波太儲的對象這對中高階其實有影響我現在準備要站少將缺了或者我要升上校缺了我會去勾新府讓你輔導我\n526701\t543967\t問你這個問題我在勾你把你伸上來那萬一出事怎麼辦會有這個問題可是心理輔導是一個專業也應該接受保密所以部長你是一個做一天事就把事做好的人這個事情當我們證照不足基層能量不足是不是尋求\n545707\t559920\t衛福部及其他轄下相關的醫院甚至於學校專業的專家我們的軍事官兵可以去尋求協助費用國防部這邊來開支那邊還可以守著保密原則它是自動去的保密我們輔導去當然我們就會知道\n561795\t587607\t國防部長,可不可以這樣往這個方向走?是,跟委員報告,委員長很有道理。我們的確有地方有時候做得不夠周圍的地方。但我要說明一下,這三道防線,我沒有推給他們。因為第一道防線沒有錯,它是迎聯、排擠甚至是頒獎級。它經驗各方面是不夠的。但我們並沒有指望它要出面去幫它輔導。我們期望它能夠關切。所以我們現在講說,它只要關切,它就會發覺問題。\n589048\t616958\t我不會叫他去做,你叫他先看一下有沒有狀況我現在擔心這樣子的查資系統不足因為時間關係,我最後問兩件事情我帶過去,局長可以先回座第一個,坑子口因為涉及機敏,我把裡面一些標示我都拿掉坑子口是我們裝甲部隊非常重要的訓場\n618402\t637959\t甚至於有些項目都只能在這裡來做那坑子口這個營區原來11個工項因為前幾年原物料上漲所以你們有減項繼續讓它發包施作減了4項現在正在進行中的7項那目前這7項進行中根據我們的這個訓場以及陸軍的規劃\n642463\t658547\t大概M1A2的戰車今年底來到明年上去做實彈的操作有一些科目是可以做的沒有錯有些科目是可以做的沒有錯但部長我們希望更好為什麼更好因為有四項你們把它延後規劃是在2027年到2031年才要做\n662148\t678199\t而且那個預算還沒劃出來那個大概是7億多的預算把它往後延了到時候如果預算排擠又把它往後延會產生什麼影響呢這四個沒有做的話我們的連帶排攻擊的演練就沒辦法做\n679338\t703637\t我們的所謂的運動涉及聯繫沒辦法做現在是把運動跟聯繫切開來一般民眾可能不了解運動聯繫就是你的行動跟你的涉及我們現在變只能暫時用切開來要一直要到如果真的變得出預算還要到2031年才能夠具備這個能力這影響多大呢M1A2比M60強就強在這兩項還有一些類似的項目\n707589\t709293\t長遼車運動涉及相關部分7億多按照規劃到2027年才開始執行\n718479\t740588\t我個人的建議如果要發揮我們年底開始接裝這些M1A2T的話這當時就是放在同一個階段要執行的4個項目7億多現在我不曉得它會到8億還是會更少就這4個項目能不能在今年的預算把它納入我們盡快讓坑子口成為一個完整的可以訓練M1A2裝甲車的這一個讓這個車子發揮到最大的戰力部長\n745782\t766173\t我跟委員報告,的確我們台南現在欠學習講說像這戰甲車一面走一面打能夠運動跟射擊那種結合很難那我今天可以講說把這個預算編列進去以後我可以要他們快但我不敢跟委員保證明年我的戰甲車在這邊運動跟射擊同步來他還有工程時間每慢一年編預算\n772106\t799325\t這個能力就會往後延當然預算你看全局可能會有排擠可能跟湖口的測試場域會有些聯動關係但我的意思說這幾樣能力你本身是裝甲出身的這幾個沒有訓導的話其實M1A2T車就可惜了所以我真的建請部長去思考這四個項目不要挪到這麼後面是不是可以開始來進行而且你就算編進去發包搞不好還留你越慢它就會拖到然後那個陸軍參謀長\n801306\t810416\t有關我們無人機防禦系統我上次特別提出你們標案是一項一項測試那是有問題的你說不會絕對整合我今天有把你們標單帶來是分開單項測試這個部分請你督導我有時間再細問謝謝你謝謝主席\n","txt":"巡打你之前剛剛還請助理最新再打了一次你看一下現象來聲音讓他出來\n部長083622064兩位這個電話應該看得出來他在哪裡吧這是馬祖的這是什麼電話我們局長知道嗎新府專線的電話\n新府專線電話要不要24小時有人接聽是新府電話沒有下班的吧是我們都不希望我們部隊你知道每個弟兄姊妹都是我們的我們家庭的一份子\n每個人大概大大小小有的是財務有的感情有的我們不知道什麼原因我們都希望照顧好每一位年輕的官士兵所以新府專線我第一個不講他有沒有效至少他打得通是這個資訊來自於國防部陣戰局提供的服務網欸我們從昨天打到今天都是什麼你知道嗎空號是那我如果需要協助的時候我打去是空號\n誰知道我打的是空號?局長為什麼有這事情?跟委員報告一下馬祖地區的部分我去了解一下因為他們的行為中心有做調整那是不是在專線的部分我跟你講我現在秀你這個服務網頁是你們現在的服務網頁我們也下去檢查號碼不是我去拿舊的是你們現在你現在拿手機出來看就是這個號碼政治作戰局公布的號碼就是083622064\n現在打它就是空號這兩天社會沸沸揚揚都在檢討這個事情了你們怎麼還會自己提供的服務線還是一個空號然後你不知道原因啊你現在可能應該也不知道為什麼會不會還有其他空號\n我們下去瞭解因為我們都有要求我不曉得我們下去檢討在部隊裡面如果有這個電話應該上級長官三不五時會派人打一遍嘛是在不在班有沒有到勤有沒有開小差會一些查核跟管理一打就知道是不是空號了你現在\n連馬祖是空號已經證實了這是你們資訊你不要跟我講說你們已經換了換了你這個網頁沒換不是一樣是 了解然後其他單位的是不是空號不曉得啊我們下去全面檢討這是24小時的救命專線\n會發生一些不幸的事件,我們都希望不會有\n不管是官士兵發生不幸事件不管找得出原因有的真的找不出原因都是家庭跟國家的損失每一個家人看到自己孩子面對這樣的事情可以接受的很難拿\n所以但我不是說全部一定是部隊的錯因為他原因太多元了所以我現在要請教包含部長那個局長你也聽一下我看一下近一個月國軍下一個國軍發生輕生事件這是這一個月有七位嘛你們有沒有統計過去一年就好了我們部隊裡面發生這樣的不幸事件大概有幾件\n我跟委員報告每年都有統計數量我們也不好在這邊這樣講所以最近這一點這樣的事情的確很遺憾但我剛剛在記者當中我也表達也跟委員做報告任何事情這種發生以後他當事人家庭跟部隊都一個很大的遺憾請我列這個各案我尊重你們因為有的家屬不願意人家再提起\n有的原因每個人有個人原因營內營外發生狀態也不一樣一個一個個案我們可以私下去關心那基於體恤家屬也好或者有些調查過程甚至於仿效作用我不會在那邊談這個案我現在是問我建議部裡面幾件事情第一個過去一年或兩年這類不幸事件營內外共幾件第二個事前有真後有真狀的有幾件佔比多少\n沒有徵後的有幾件比例多少?第三個事後查得出原因的有幾件比例多少?查不出因素的有幾件比例有多少?那這查得出因素的主要因素前三名是什麼?我為什麼要這樣一條一條列?\n我們在管理上永遠都會有漏洞這個其實是心腹安全網絡這些在部隊裡面的弟兄姊妹是用生命找出這些漏洞我們應該把這個洞想要補起來怎麼補起來呢\n比方說我們這個網絡如果有太高的比例事前無法掌握增厚那是不是我們的心服體系因為按照你看我們下一個表我們按照現在的體系是由地方的銀聯牌班級基層幹部看一下有什麼狀況你們還有一個APP嘛每個禮拜要勾嘛勾自己我有沒有親身的傾向我一勾我就不能放假了我哪會勾啊我一勾馬上被約談了\n你懂我意思嗎我們的班牌幹部本身就是年輕人他也沒有心腹的專業他還要幫你去評估哪個兵哪個官現在有問題然後我們還要自評每個禮拜要勾勾勾勾APP我想要去喝咖啡我一定說我非常有這個傾向就約去喝咖啡了嘛\n所以我說這個體系到底是不是一個漏洞該怎麼補強這是一個事情第二個我事情有長過徵兆了結果不幸還發生了那是我們整個輔導體系資源量能不夠你看一下我們的配置從這一個\n為二級單位的編制地區新衛就地區醫院的概念14個然後實際數量到班多少個具有專業證照的人數比例尤其二級心理衛生單位我們現在到班就是實際原額有到的是382個有證照才60個然後下面到班牌已經根本沒有這些證照\n我等於是讓班長去肩負我下面的兵欸你們乖一點喔不要給我出問題喔大概平常兵就這樣管而已啦那等到發生不幸了就開始問林兵有沒有聽到什麼所以我今天不是要指責局長或者說部長\n我們都希望不要再發生所以當這些年輕人用生命幫你找到漏洞我們卻不把它改掉的話不把洞補起來的話我們對不起自己我們擔任這個職務嘛我們這些袍澤都是我們的家人啊我們不希望我們的家人遇到困難最無助的時候打電話去吃空耗平常沒有被發現事後找不出原因這不好 這不僅不好\n可能家人會一輩子不知道為什麼我這個孩子走了你懂我意思嗎所以部長我剛才列這些因素其實裡面管理的專家一定很多去列一下我們現有的管理機制坦白講心理輔導或精神衛生這個部分我都會建議國防部多尋求外部協助\n外部的地區醫院專業衛福部由外部來協助有兩個好處第一個他專業第二個我們是整體國家的量能來協助還有一個什麼好處呢我去尋求這個協助的時候有保密原則我部隊不會知道我有這個情形我不會列為下一波太儲的對象這對中高階其實有影響我現在準備要站少將缺了或者我要升上校缺了我會去勾新府讓你輔導我\n問你這個問題我在勾你把你伸上來那萬一出事怎麼辦會有這個問題可是心理輔導是一個專業也應該接受保密所以部長你是一個做一天事就把事做好的人這個事情當我們證照不足基層能量不足是不是尋求\n衛福部及其他轄下相關的醫院甚至於學校專業的專家我們的軍事官兵可以去尋求協助費用國防部這邊來開支那邊還可以守著保密原則它是自動去的保密我們輔導去當然我們就會知道\n國防部長,可不可以這樣往這個方向走?是,跟委員報告,委員長很有道理。我們的確有地方有時候做得不夠周圍的地方。但我要說明一下,這三道防線,我沒有推給他們。因為第一道防線沒有錯,它是迎聯、排擠甚至是頒獎級。它經驗各方面是不夠的。但我們並沒有指望它要出面去幫它輔導。我們期望它能夠關切。所以我們現在講說,它只要關切,它就會發覺問題。\n我不會叫他去做,你叫他先看一下有沒有狀況我現在擔心這樣子的查資系統不足因為時間關係,我最後問兩件事情我帶過去,局長可以先回座第一個,坑子口因為涉及機敏,我把裡面一些標示我都拿掉坑子口是我們裝甲部隊非常重要的訓場\n甚至於有些項目都只能在這裡來做那坑子口這個營區原來11個工項因為前幾年原物料上漲所以你們有減項繼續讓它發包施作減了4項現在正在進行中的7項那目前這7項進行中根據我們的這個訓場以及陸軍的規劃\n大概M1A2的戰車今年底來到明年上去做實彈的操作有一些科目是可以做的沒有錯有些科目是可以做的沒有錯但部長我們希望更好為什麼更好因為有四項你們把它延後規劃是在2027年到2031年才要做\n而且那個預算還沒劃出來那個大概是7億多的預算把它往後延了到時候如果預算排擠又把它往後延會產生什麼影響呢這四個沒有做的話我們的連帶排攻擊的演練就沒辦法做\n我們的所謂的運動涉及聯繫沒辦法做現在是把運動跟聯繫切開來一般民眾可能不了解運動聯繫就是你的行動跟你的涉及我們現在變只能暫時用切開來要一直要到如果真的變得出預算還要到2031年才能夠具備這個能力這影響多大呢M1A2比M60強就強在這兩項還有一些類似的項目\n長遼車運動涉及相關部分7億多按照規劃到2027年才開始執行\n我個人的建議如果要發揮我們年底開始接裝這些M1A2T的話這當時就是放在同一個階段要執行的4個項目7億多現在我不曉得它會到8億還是會更少就這4個項目能不能在今年的預算把它納入我們盡快讓坑子口成為一個完整的可以訓練M1A2裝甲車的這一個讓這個車子發揮到最大的戰力部長\n我跟委員報告,的確我們台南現在欠學習講說像這戰甲車一面走一面打能夠運動跟射擊那種結合很難那我今天可以講說把這個預算編列進去以後我可以要他們快但我不敢跟委員保證明年我的戰甲車在這邊運動跟射擊同步來他還有工程時間每慢一年編預算\n這個能力就會往後延當然預算你看全局可能會有排擠可能跟湖口的測試場域會有些聯動關係但我的意思說這幾樣能力你本身是裝甲出身的這幾個沒有訓導的話其實M1A2T車就可惜了所以我真的建請部長去思考這四個項目不要挪到這麼後面是不是可以開始來進行而且你就算編進去發包搞不好還留你越慢它就會拖到然後那個陸軍參謀長\n有關我們無人機防禦系統我上次特別提出你們標案是一項一項測試那是有問題的你說不會絕對整合我今天有把你們標單帶來是分開單項測試這個部分請你督導我有時間再細問謝謝你謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:14.794\n巡打你之前剛剛還請助理最新再打了一次你看一下現象來聲音讓他出來\n\n00:31.994 --> 00:36.258\n部長083622064兩位這個電話應該看得出來他在哪裡吧這是馬祖的這是什麼電話我們局長知道嗎新府專線的電話\n\n00:58.052 --> 01:09.849\n新府專線電話要不要24小時有人接聽是新府電話沒有下班的吧是我們都不希望我們部隊你知道每個弟兄姊妹都是我們的我們家庭的一份子\n\n01:10.509 --> 01:39.088\n每個人大概大大小小有的是財務有的感情有的我們不知道什麼原因我們都希望照顧好每一位年輕的官士兵所以新府專線我第一個不講他有沒有效至少他打得通是這個資訊來自於國防部陣戰局提供的服務網欸我們從昨天打到今天都是什麼你知道嗎空號是那我如果需要協助的時候我打去是空號\n\n01:40.530 --> 02:06.721\n誰知道我打的是空號?局長為什麼有這事情?跟委員報告一下馬祖地區的部分我去了解一下因為他們的行為中心有做調整那是不是在專線的部分我跟你講我現在秀你這個服務網頁是你們現在的服務網頁我們也下去檢查號碼不是我去拿舊的是你們現在你現在拿手機出來看就是這個號碼政治作戰局公布的號碼就是083622064\n\n02:09.743 --> 02:14.706\n現在打它就是空號這兩天社會沸沸揚揚都在檢討這個事情了你們怎麼還會自己提供的服務線還是一個空號然後你不知道原因啊你現在可能應該也不知道為什麼會不會還有其他空號\n\n02:31.264 --> 02:51.910\n我們下去瞭解因為我們都有要求我不曉得我們下去檢討在部隊裡面如果有這個電話應該上級長官三不五時會派人打一遍嘛是在不在班有沒有到勤有沒有開小差會一些查核跟管理一打就知道是不是空號了你現在\n\n02:53.793 --> 03:06.667\n連馬祖是空號已經證實了這是你們資訊你不要跟我講說你們已經換了換了你這個網頁沒換不是一樣是了解然後其他單位的是不是空號不曉得啊我們下去全面檢討這是24小時的救命專線\n\n03:08.777 --> 03:11.359\n會發生一些不幸的事件,我們都希望不會有\n\n03:27.250 --> 03:42.367\n不管是官士兵發生不幸事件不管找得出原因有的真的找不出原因都是家庭跟國家的損失每一個家人看到自己孩子面對這樣的事情可以接受的很難拿\n\n03:43.737 --> 04:06.206\n所以但我不是說全部一定是部隊的錯因為他原因太多元了所以我現在要請教包含部長那個局長你也聽一下我看一下近一個月國軍下一個國軍發生輕生事件這是這一個月有七位嘛你們有沒有統計過去一年就好了我們部隊裡面發生這樣的不幸事件大概有幾件\n\n04:07.014 --> 04:30.023\n我跟委員報告每年都有統計數量我們也不好在這邊這樣講所以最近這一點這樣的事情的確很遺憾但我剛剛在記者當中我也表達也跟委員做報告任何事情這種發生以後他當事人家庭跟部隊都一個很大的遺憾請我列這個各案我尊重你們因為有的家屬不願意人家再提起\n\n04:30.842 --> 04:59.053\n有的原因每個人有個人原因營內營外發生狀態也不一樣一個一個個案我們可以私下去關心那基於體恤家屬也好或者有些調查過程甚至於仿效作用我不會在那邊談這個案我現在是問我建議部裡面幾件事情第一個過去一年或兩年這類不幸事件營內外共幾件第二個事前有真後有真狀的有幾件佔比多少\n\n05:00.051 --> 05:17.658\n沒有徵後的有幾件比例多少?第三個事後查得出原因的有幾件比例多少?查不出因素的有幾件比例有多少?那這查得出因素的主要因素前三名是什麼?我為什麼要這樣一條一條列?\n\n05:19.019 --> 05:33.636\n我們在管理上永遠都會有漏洞這個其實是心腹安全網絡這些在部隊裡面的弟兄姊妹是用生命找出這些漏洞我們應該把這個洞想要補起來怎麼補起來呢\n\n05:36.820 --> 06:05.363\n比方說我們這個網絡如果有太高的比例事前無法掌握增厚那是不是我們的心服體系因為按照你看我們下一個表我們按照現在的體系是由地方的銀聯牌班級基層幹部看一下有什麼狀況你們還有一個APP嘛每個禮拜要勾嘛勾自己我有沒有親身的傾向我一勾我就不能放假了我哪會勾啊我一勾馬上被約談了\n\n06:06.772 --> 06:26.101\n你懂我意思嗎我們的班牌幹部本身就是年輕人他也沒有心腹的專業他還要幫你去評估哪個兵哪個官現在有問題然後我們還要自評每個禮拜要勾勾勾勾APP我想要去喝咖啡我一定說我非常有這個傾向就約去喝咖啡了嘛\n\n06:26.860 --> 06:43.427\n所以我說這個體系到底是不是一個漏洞該怎麼補強這是一個事情第二個我事情有長過徵兆了結果不幸還發生了那是我們整個輔導體系資源量能不夠你看一下我們的配置從這一個\n\n06:46.244 --> 07:07.190\n為二級單位的編制地區新衛就地區醫院的概念14個然後實際數量到班多少個具有專業證照的人數比例尤其二級心理衛生單位我們現在到班就是實際原額有到的是382個有證照才60個然後下面到班牌已經根本沒有這些證照\n\n07:09.637 --> 07:25.257\n我等於是讓班長去肩負我下面的兵欸你們乖一點喔不要給我出問題喔大概平常兵就這樣管而已啦那等到發生不幸了就開始問林兵有沒有聽到什麼所以我今天不是要指責局長或者說部長\n\n07:26.550 --> 07:54.684\n我們都希望不要再發生所以當這些年輕人用生命幫你找到漏洞我們卻不把它改掉的話不把洞補起來的話我們對不起自己我們擔任這個職務嘛我們這些袍澤都是我們的家人啊我們不希望我們的家人遇到困難最無助的時候打電話去吃空耗平常沒有被發現事後找不出原因這不好這不僅不好\n\n07:55.834 --> 08:15.986\n可能家人會一輩子不知道為什麼我這個孩子走了你懂我意思嗎所以部長我剛才列這些因素其實裡面管理的專家一定很多去列一下我們現有的管理機制坦白講心理輔導或精神衛生這個部分我都會建議國防部多尋求外部協助\n\n08:17.034 --> 08:44.925\n外部的地區醫院專業衛福部由外部來協助有兩個好處第一個他專業第二個我們是整體國家的量能來協助還有一個什麼好處呢我去尋求這個協助的時候有保密原則我部隊不會知道我有這個情形我不會列為下一波太儲的對象這對中高階其實有影響我現在準備要站少將缺了或者我要升上校缺了我會去勾新府讓你輔導我\n\n08:46.701 --> 09:03.967\n問你這個問題我在勾你把你伸上來那萬一出事怎麼辦會有這個問題可是心理輔導是一個專業也應該接受保密所以部長你是一個做一天事就把事做好的人這個事情當我們證照不足基層能量不足是不是尋求\n\n09:05.707 --> 09:19.920\n衛福部及其他轄下相關的醫院甚至於學校專業的專家我們的軍事官兵可以去尋求協助費用國防部這邊來開支那邊還可以守著保密原則它是自動去的保密我們輔導去當然我們就會知道\n\n09:21.795 --> 09:47.607\n國防部長,可不可以這樣往這個方向走?是,跟委員報告,委員長很有道理。我們的確有地方有時候做得不夠周圍的地方。但我要說明一下,這三道防線,我沒有推給他們。因為第一道防線沒有錯,它是迎聯、排擠甚至是頒獎級。它經驗各方面是不夠的。但我們並沒有指望它要出面去幫它輔導。我們期望它能夠關切。所以我們現在講說,它只要關切,它就會發覺問題。\n\n09:49.048 --> 10:16.958\n我不會叫他去做,你叫他先看一下有沒有狀況我現在擔心這樣子的查資系統不足因為時間關係,我最後問兩件事情我帶過去,局長可以先回座第一個,坑子口因為涉及機敏,我把裡面一些標示我都拿掉坑子口是我們裝甲部隊非常重要的訓場\n\n10:18.402 --> 10:37.959\n甚至於有些項目都只能在這裡來做那坑子口這個營區原來11個工項因為前幾年原物料上漲所以你們有減項繼續讓它發包施作減了4項現在正在進行中的7項那目前這7項進行中根據我們的這個訓場以及陸軍的規劃\n\n10:42.463 --> 10:58.547\n大概M1A2的戰車今年底來到明年上去做實彈的操作有一些科目是可以做的沒有錯有些科目是可以做的沒有錯但部長我們希望更好為什麼更好因為有四項你們把它延後規劃是在2027年到2031年才要做\n\n11:02.148 --> 11:18.199\n而且那個預算還沒劃出來那個大概是7億多的預算把它往後延了到時候如果預算排擠又把它往後延會產生什麼影響呢這四個沒有做的話我們的連帶排攻擊的演練就沒辦法做\n\n11:19.338 --> 11:43.637\n我們的所謂的運動涉及聯繫沒辦法做現在是把運動跟聯繫切開來一般民眾可能不了解運動聯繫就是你的行動跟你的涉及我們現在變只能暫時用切開來要一直要到如果真的變得出預算還要到2031年才能夠具備這個能力這影響多大呢M1A2比M60強就強在這兩項還有一些類似的項目\n\n11:47.589 --> 11:49.293\n長遼車運動涉及相關部分7億多按照規劃到2027年才開始執行\n\n11:58.479 --> 12:20.588\n我個人的建議如果要發揮我們年底開始接裝這些M1A2T的話這當時就是放在同一個階段要執行的4個項目7億多現在我不曉得它會到8億還是會更少就這4個項目能不能在今年的預算把它納入我們盡快讓坑子口成為一個完整的可以訓練M1A2裝甲車的這一個讓這個車子發揮到最大的戰力部長\n\n12:25.782 --> 12:46.173\n我跟委員報告,的確我們台南現在欠學習講說像這戰甲車一面走一面打能夠運動跟射擊那種結合很難那我今天可以講說把這個預算編列進去以後我可以要他們快但我不敢跟委員保證明年我的戰甲車在這邊運動跟射擊同步來他還有工程時間每慢一年編預算\n\n12:52.106 --> 13:19.325\n這個能力就會往後延當然預算你看全局可能會有排擠可能跟湖口的測試場域會有些聯動關係但我的意思說這幾樣能力你本身是裝甲出身的這幾個沒有訓導的話其實M1A2T車就可惜了所以我真的建請部長去思考這四個項目不要挪到這麼後面是不是可以開始來進行而且你就算編進去發包搞不好還留你越慢它就會拖到然後那個陸軍參謀長\n\n13:21.306 --> 13:30.416\n有關我們無人機防禦系統我上次特別提出你們標案是一項一項測試那是有問題的你說不會絕對整合我今天有把你們標單帶來是分開單項測試這個部分請你督導我有時間再細問謝謝你謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":14.794,"text":"巡打你之前剛剛還請助理最新再打了一次你看一下現象來聲音讓他出來"},{"start":31.994,"end":36.258,"text":"部長083622064兩位這個電話應該看得出來他在哪裡吧這是馬祖的這是什麼電話我們局長知道嗎新府專線的電話"},{"start":58.052,"end":69.849,"text":"新府專線電話要不要24小時有人接聽是新府電話沒有下班的吧是我們都不希望我們部隊你知道每個弟兄姊妹都是我們的我們家庭的一份子"},{"start":70.509,"end":99.088,"text":"每個人大概大大小小有的是財務有的感情有的我們不知道什麼原因我們都希望照顧好每一位年輕的官士兵所以新府專線我第一個不講他有沒有效至少他打得通是這個資訊來自於國防部陣戰局提供的服務網欸我們從昨天打到今天都是什麼你知道嗎空號是那我如果需要協助的時候我打去是空號"},{"start":100.53,"end":126.721,"text":"誰知道我打的是空號?局長為什麼有這事情?跟委員報告一下馬祖地區的部分我去了解一下因為他們的行為中心有做調整那是不是在專線的部分我跟你講我現在秀你這個服務網頁是你們現在的服務網頁我們也下去檢查號碼不是我去拿舊的是你們現在你現在拿手機出來看就是這個號碼政治作戰局公布的號碼就是083622064"},{"start":129.743,"end":134.706,"text":"現在打它就是空號這兩天社會沸沸揚揚都在檢討這個事情了你們怎麼還會自己提供的服務線還是一個空號然後你不知道原因啊你現在可能應該也不知道為什麼會不會還有其他空號"},{"start":151.264,"end":171.91,"text":"我們下去瞭解因為我們都有要求我不曉得我們下去檢討在部隊裡面如果有這個電話應該上級長官三不五時會派人打一遍嘛是在不在班有沒有到勤有沒有開小差會一些查核跟管理一打就知道是不是空號了你現在"},{"start":173.793,"end":186.667,"text":"連馬祖是空號已經證實了這是你們資訊你不要跟我講說你們已經換了換了你這個網頁沒換不是一樣是 了解然後其他單位的是不是空號不曉得啊我們下去全面檢討這是24小時的救命專線"},{"start":188.777,"end":191.359,"text":"會發生一些不幸的事件,我們都希望不會有"},{"start":207.25,"end":222.367,"text":"不管是官士兵發生不幸事件不管找得出原因有的真的找不出原因都是家庭跟國家的損失每一個家人看到自己孩子面對這樣的事情可以接受的很難拿"},{"start":223.737,"end":246.206,"text":"所以但我不是說全部一定是部隊的錯因為他原因太多元了所以我現在要請教包含部長那個局長你也聽一下我看一下近一個月國軍下一個國軍發生輕生事件這是這一個月有七位嘛你們有沒有統計過去一年就好了我們部隊裡面發生這樣的不幸事件大概有幾件"},{"start":247.014,"end":270.023,"text":"我跟委員報告每年都有統計數量我們也不好在這邊這樣講所以最近這一點這樣的事情的確很遺憾但我剛剛在記者當中我也表達也跟委員做報告任何事情這種發生以後他當事人家庭跟部隊都一個很大的遺憾請我列這個各案我尊重你們因為有的家屬不願意人家再提起"},{"start":270.842,"end":299.053,"text":"有的原因每個人有個人原因營內營外發生狀態也不一樣一個一個個案我們可以私下去關心那基於體恤家屬也好或者有些調查過程甚至於仿效作用我不會在那邊談這個案我現在是問我建議部裡面幾件事情第一個過去一年或兩年這類不幸事件營內外共幾件第二個事前有真後有真狀的有幾件佔比多少"},{"start":300.051,"end":317.658,"text":"沒有徵後的有幾件比例多少?第三個事後查得出原因的有幾件比例多少?查不出因素的有幾件比例有多少?那這查得出因素的主要因素前三名是什麼?我為什麼要這樣一條一條列?"},{"start":319.019,"end":333.636,"text":"我們在管理上永遠都會有漏洞這個其實是心腹安全網絡這些在部隊裡面的弟兄姊妹是用生命找出這些漏洞我們應該把這個洞想要補起來怎麼補起來呢"},{"start":336.82,"end":365.363,"text":"比方說我們這個網絡如果有太高的比例事前無法掌握增厚那是不是我們的心服體系因為按照你看我們下一個表我們按照現在的體系是由地方的銀聯牌班級基層幹部看一下有什麼狀況你們還有一個APP嘛每個禮拜要勾嘛勾自己我有沒有親身的傾向我一勾我就不能放假了我哪會勾啊我一勾馬上被約談了"},{"start":366.772,"end":386.101,"text":"你懂我意思嗎我們的班牌幹部本身就是年輕人他也沒有心腹的專業他還要幫你去評估哪個兵哪個官現在有問題然後我們還要自評每個禮拜要勾勾勾勾APP我想要去喝咖啡我一定說我非常有這個傾向就約去喝咖啡了嘛"},{"start":386.86,"end":403.427,"text":"所以我說這個體系到底是不是一個漏洞該怎麼補強這是一個事情第二個我事情有長過徵兆了結果不幸還發生了那是我們整個輔導體系資源量能不夠你看一下我們的配置從這一個"},{"start":406.244,"end":427.19,"text":"為二級單位的編制地區新衛就地區醫院的概念14個然後實際數量到班多少個具有專業證照的人數比例尤其二級心理衛生單位我們現在到班就是實際原額有到的是382個有證照才60個然後下面到班牌已經根本沒有這些證照"},{"start":429.637,"end":445.257,"text":"我等於是讓班長去肩負我下面的兵欸你們乖一點喔不要給我出問題喔大概平常兵就這樣管而已啦那等到發生不幸了就開始問林兵有沒有聽到什麼所以我今天不是要指責局長或者說部長"},{"start":446.55,"end":474.684,"text":"我們都希望不要再發生所以當這些年輕人用生命幫你找到漏洞我們卻不把它改掉的話不把洞補起來的話我們對不起自己我們擔任這個職務嘛我們這些袍澤都是我們的家人啊我們不希望我們的家人遇到困難最無助的時候打電話去吃空耗平常沒有被發現事後找不出原因這不好 這不僅不好"},{"start":475.834,"end":495.986,"text":"可能家人會一輩子不知道為什麼我這個孩子走了你懂我意思嗎所以部長我剛才列這些因素其實裡面管理的專家一定很多去列一下我們現有的管理機制坦白講心理輔導或精神衛生這個部分我都會建議國防部多尋求外部協助"},{"start":497.034,"end":524.925,"text":"外部的地區醫院專業衛福部由外部來協助有兩個好處第一個他專業第二個我們是整體國家的量能來協助還有一個什麼好處呢我去尋求這個協助的時候有保密原則我部隊不會知道我有這個情形我不會列為下一波太儲的對象這對中高階其實有影響我現在準備要站少將缺了或者我要升上校缺了我會去勾新府讓你輔導我"},{"start":526.701,"end":543.967,"text":"問你這個問題我在勾你把你伸上來那萬一出事怎麼辦會有這個問題可是心理輔導是一個專業也應該接受保密所以部長你是一個做一天事就把事做好的人這個事情當我們證照不足基層能量不足是不是尋求"},{"start":545.707,"end":559.92,"text":"衛福部及其他轄下相關的醫院甚至於學校專業的專家我們的軍事官兵可以去尋求協助費用國防部這邊來開支那邊還可以守著保密原則它是自動去的保密我們輔導去當然我們就會知道"},{"start":561.795,"end":587.607,"text":"國防部長,可不可以這樣往這個方向走?是,跟委員報告,委員長很有道理。我們的確有地方有時候做得不夠周圍的地方。但我要說明一下,這三道防線,我沒有推給他們。因為第一道防線沒有錯,它是迎聯、排擠甚至是頒獎級。它經驗各方面是不夠的。但我們並沒有指望它要出面去幫它輔導。我們期望它能夠關切。所以我們現在講說,它只要關切,它就會發覺問題。"},{"start":589.048,"end":616.958,"text":"我不會叫他去做,你叫他先看一下有沒有狀況我現在擔心這樣子的查資系統不足因為時間關係,我最後問兩件事情我帶過去,局長可以先回座第一個,坑子口因為涉及機敏,我把裡面一些標示我都拿掉坑子口是我們裝甲部隊非常重要的訓場"},{"start":618.402,"end":637.959,"text":"甚至於有些項目都只能在這裡來做那坑子口這個營區原來11個工項因為前幾年原物料上漲所以你們有減項繼續讓它發包施作減了4項現在正在進行中的7項那目前這7項進行中根據我們的這個訓場以及陸軍的規劃"},{"start":642.463,"end":658.547,"text":"大概M1A2的戰車今年底來到明年上去做實彈的操作有一些科目是可以做的沒有錯有些科目是可以做的沒有錯但部長我們希望更好為什麼更好因為有四項你們把它延後規劃是在2027年到2031年才要做"},{"start":662.148,"end":678.199,"text":"而且那個預算還沒劃出來那個大概是7億多的預算把它往後延了到時候如果預算排擠又把它往後延會產生什麼影響呢這四個沒有做的話我們的連帶排攻擊的演練就沒辦法做"},{"start":679.338,"end":703.637,"text":"我們的所謂的運動涉及聯繫沒辦法做現在是把運動跟聯繫切開來一般民眾可能不了解運動聯繫就是你的行動跟你的涉及我們現在變只能暫時用切開來要一直要到如果真的變得出預算還要到2031年才能夠具備這個能力這影響多大呢M1A2比M60強就強在這兩項還有一些類似的項目"},{"start":707.589,"end":709.293,"text":"長遼車運動涉及相關部分7億多按照規劃到2027年才開始執行"},{"start":718.479,"end":740.588,"text":"我個人的建議如果要發揮我們年底開始接裝這些M1A2T的話這當時就是放在同一個階段要執行的4個項目7億多現在我不曉得它會到8億還是會更少就這4個項目能不能在今年的預算把它納入我們盡快讓坑子口成為一個完整的可以訓練M1A2裝甲車的這一個讓這個車子發揮到最大的戰力部長"},{"start":745.782,"end":766.173,"text":"我跟委員報告,的確我們台南現在欠學習講說像這戰甲車一面走一面打能夠運動跟射擊那種結合很難那我今天可以講說把這個預算編列進去以後我可以要他們快但我不敢跟委員保證明年我的戰甲車在這邊運動跟射擊同步來他還有工程時間每慢一年編預算"},{"start":772.106,"end":799.325,"text":"這個能力就會往後延當然預算你看全局可能會有排擠可能跟湖口的測試場域會有些聯動關係但我的意思說這幾樣能力你本身是裝甲出身的這幾個沒有訓導的話其實M1A2T車就可惜了所以我真的建請部長去思考這四個項目不要挪到這麼後面是不是可以開始來進行而且你就算編進去發包搞不好還留你越慢它就會拖到然後那個陸軍參謀長"},{"start":801.306,"end":810.416,"text":"有關我們無人機防禦系統我上次特別提出你們標案是一項一項測試那是有問題的你說不會絕對整合我今天有把你們標單帶來是分開單項測試這個部分請你督導我有時間再細問謝謝你謝謝主席"}]}}}}