{"id":150453,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150453","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5b48e676c7a11bce052100ef94a0b7c33f8ba9b0039caa7a632fe287ba23c3e1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:55:33 - 10:07:44","影片長度":"00:12:11","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請文化部部長史哲列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算(公務預算)解凍案8案。(如未接獲議事處來函，則不予處理或審查)【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-5"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":731,"end_time":"2024-03-27T10:07:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T09:55:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":296,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時55分）謝謝召委，請史哲部長。"],["主席：有請史哲部長。"],["史部長哲：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長好。你已經就任一年多了，而且就準總統賴清德的說法，他希望是文化立國，文化是我們的根，我們就來看看文化部最近所發生的事情，相對於你們的報告，我們來看看文化到底有沒有它的風骨跟涵養。","我們先來看一下，具有105年歷史的建國啤酒廠累積了非常多的文資，部長，你知道嗎？目前為止被行政院政委張景森跟鄭文燦副院長聯手主導，要把原本包括民進黨前輩也都認為要作為文化產業區的土地切割，而且在4月16日馬上要通過都市計畫的變更，部長，你知道這件事吧？這幾乎讓過去七、八年不斷地、非常多的學者專家還有地方的居民，其實對他們來說是一個非常大的損失。部長，你是最高文化資產保護的主管單位，你知道這件事吧？"],["史部長哲：我知道這件事情，不過這件事情是園區定位的變更，跟古蹟的破壞是兩個不同的事情。"],["柯委員志恩：當然是有關聯啊！這麼多的人一定有來跟做陳情，包括附近的居民，我今天要特別強調地指出來，這個過程當中，在4月6日，而且透過所謂的臺北市政府，我只想知道文化部目前的立場是什麼，這是一個文化古蹟，這是你的立場，文化部不應該不聞不問，文化部的立場到底在哪裡？"],["史部長哲：文化部的立場很清楚，就是有關於古蹟跟相關歷史建築的維護必須按照相關的法規來進行，但是古蹟跟歷史建築的使用是做什麼，目前我們的態度是開放的，也尊重地方政府跟地方居民大家共同的見解。"],["柯委員志恩：地方政府目前也透過臺北市政府，還有包括非常多的專家希望文化部不應該沉默，因為你的沉默對建國啤酒廠來說，幾乎就是讓它判死的最大幫兇，這是我要特別請部長，很多人就在看你們文化部對於這件事情的立場在哪裡，這是我今天第一個要特別提出來的。","第二個，我要進入所謂公共藝術的部分，我想公共藝術目前推動到110年來說，總經費已經有99億、差不多100億，我也知道目前為止被監察院的監委特別提出來，他認為這麼大的公共藝術裡面有非常多代辦的弊端，部長，你應該很清楚吧？"],["史部長哲：我有看到監察院……"],["柯委員志恩：的報告……"],["史部長哲：是。"],["柯委員志恩：可是今天對於公共藝術，你的報告當中只有106個字，而且監察院特別直指，當他們提出這些問題的時候，你們告訴大家目前為止沒有收到任何陳情舉證為由，所以這是提出監察院報告。我們往前面那一頁來看，部長，你可以看得出來，目前來說代辦的比例真的非常地高。","我們來看下一個，我的資料可能比監察院更清楚，我幫你整理一下，讓部長更清楚，為什麼呢？公共藝術來說，目前有將近100億這麼龐大，我們希望能夠鼓勵更多的藝術家，但是你看看，目前你用代辦的方法，代辦身兼評委、投標廠商，我可以比監察院列出更清楚的公司，還有包括他們負責人的名字、他們的電話跟住址。","部長，你看一下，這個很大的爭議是評選委員沒有做到利益迴避，還有代辦公司，目前這麼多人舉辦代辦，代辦裡面很多人得標之後還去擔任其他標案的評審委員；還有，代辦公司跟得標公司負責人是同一個，我指證歷歷，全部列在這個地方；還有代辦公司跟得標公司常常都是同一家公司，share同樣的地址跟電話。部長，針對這樣的弊端，文化部積極的作為是什麼？"],["史部長哲：跟委員報告一下，剛剛有關於所謂100億的公共藝術，指的是公共藝術執行這30年來的總金額，這個一定要先釐清，這是第一個。第二個……"],["柯委員志恩：好，我從110年來提。已經被監察院做這個糾正，你們的積極作為是什麼？"],["史部長哲：第二個是有關於代辦這個詞，大概是在20年前最早……"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，部長，我只說面對這樣子的生態，文化部積極的做法是什麼？已經被監察院做這樣的糾舉了，你們的積極的做法是什麼？"],["史部長哲：所以我們從去年9月開始進行了將近20場的修法諮詢會，現在我們的修法也預告了。"],["柯委員志恩：你們預告了，你們現在還在積極修法，但是部長，我還是忍不住要告訴你，你們覺得要開始積極作為，可是你們的第一場座談會裡面邀請了5位與會人物，只有1個人沒有擔任公共藝術的代辦，其他4位都是有，這到底是巧合還是故意？就像我不斷地提到的，你們為了要做這樣的修法，然後請了人，第一場請的人還是跟代辦公司有關的。"],["史部長哲：委員，您這樣講，正代表我們代辦也諮詢，做公共藝術也諮詢，藝術家也諮詢……"],["柯委員志恩：對不起，我們再看下一頁，什麼叫「代辦也諮詢」？我剛剛已經提出這麼多所謂代辦跟評委、藝術家彼此之間成為共生的團體，這是我要特別提到的。代辦不只自己做代辦，他自己本身還是推薦評選委員，評選委員就選定幾個特別的藝術家，所以造成這麼大的比例都是由代辦公司去做。你剛剛說什麼坐實我的說法，不對！我只告訴你代辦本身已經坐實了這樣子的三角對價關係，我問你當這種事情、現象發生的時候，文化部的積極作為是什麼，你告訴我你們辦了13場所謂的公聽會或評議會，可是裡面大家都還是認為應該持續用代辦公司，因為他們本身的背景裡面就是這個樣子。我只問，這個部分最大的問題就是讓其他的藝術家沒有辦法得其門而入，這是本席今天所強調的重點！"],["史部長哲：是，但是我跟委員報告，諮詢代辦並不是任何違法而且不適當的作為，因為代辦是過去法規當中合法的制度……"],["柯委員志恩：我完全同意，只是這個共生團體的比例到這麼高，而且比例到這麼高的狀況之下，會產生這個共生團體，讓很多的藝術家不得其門而入。我還是再次地強調，而且我要告訴大家，交通部八成在適用代辦，文化部也占了五成，但是你看看，很多的小縣市像臺東、澎湖、金門、連江，人家數量不多，但是卻都由他們自己來自辦，你不覺得自辦才是未來可能可以杜絕悠悠之眾口非常好的方式嗎？"],["史部長哲：跟委員報告，代辦這個詞以及您講的共生關係，確實讓大家對代辦有非常多的疑慮，這個我承認，不過公共藝術有它的複雜度……"],["柯委員志恩：我完全同意啊！但是……"],["史部長哲：就跟建築工程必須要有專案管理公司、要有PCM一樣。"],["柯委員志恩：我只告訴你，它背後的背景是這麼樣錯綜複雜，球員兼裁判、兼什麼，已經讓所有的藝術家認為你當初的美意沒有辦法達成，所以我要請文化部不要像監察院已經告訴你們的，發生事情的時候不要說沒有、查無實證，這不是文化部該有的負責態度，我只是提醒部長這件事情要嚴正地對待。"],["史部長哲：所以我們在這次預告的修法當中，對於代辦，第一個，制度也改變了，迴避也落實……"],["柯委員志恩：好，我就來看看你們修法的部分是怎麼樣，但是不要犯了上次第一場座談會當中5位裡面就還是不斷地在這個層面……"],["史部長哲：那是第一場，我也不認為那是個錯誤，我認為那是一個對的事情，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：我還是要告訴你，5個裡面有4個都是屬於這樣的層面來說……"],["史部長哲：那只是第一場嘛。"],["柯委員志恩：當然是第一場嘛！我只告訴你……"],["史部長哲：總共有16場嘛。"],["柯委員志恩：好嘛，我就告訴你第一場曾經發生這樣的狀況，好不好？"],["史部長哲：那一場就是徵詢代辦啊！"],["柯委員志恩：不是嘛！這5個裡面居然有這樣的背景，這就不符合這樣的邏輯，而且他們本身有一個很大的共生，這是我本身提出來的。"],["史部長哲：是，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：接下來，有關於我們所提到的公共電子閱讀，我給你一個肯定，因為在公共圖書館裡面，目前為止我知道上一次你本身還跟副院長對於這樣的狀況有個非常大的宣傳，你覺得得標平臺的服務狀況如何？部長，目前為止，你覺得施行的成果如何？"],["史部長哲：從數據上來看，從實施之後事實上使用電子借閱的成長是3倍。"],["柯委員志恩：嗯。"],["史部長哲：而且這3倍的錢都是文化部出的，我們並不影響縣市政府的財政。"],["柯委員志恩：是，我當然知道，所以我說我肯定……"],["史部長哲：從這個數據來講，我認為是好的。"],["柯委員志恩：我肯定，因為它是一個趨勢，這個完全沒有問題，而且你今天在報告當中說你也認為跟21個縣市共同合作……"],["史部長哲：是。"],["柯委員志恩：這沒有問題，我們也看得出前面有跟4家廠商做這樣的處理，但是我還是要讓部長瞭解一下，前面2個廠商其實成效不錯，大概跟16個、19個縣市都有這樣子的合作，當你宣稱是跟這麼多縣市、全國各縣市合作的時候，剩下的2家，對不起，他們大概就只有六、七個縣市裡面有，跟前面2個部分來說，其實成效是有差別的。"],["史部長哲：有，我們有注意到這個現象。"],["柯委員志恩：對，所以你怎麼解決？"],["史部長哲：我想這個原因應該是這樣，就是您講的後面兩家提供的量跟服務比較少。"],["柯委員志恩：文化部就要協助人家啊！"],["史部長哲：是。"],["柯委員志恩：你就要去告訴人家縣市政府嘛，你就要發函嘛，你要發公文嘛，協助人家嘛！"],["史部長哲：正在處理這個事情。"],["柯委員志恩：是，你不能只做一半嘛，對不對？"],["史部長哲：我們發函是早就發函了，不過我也跟委員報告，我們這個制度到目前為止實施六個月。"],["柯委員志恩：什麼？"],["史部長哲：實施六個月，我們其實都還在精進當中，可能……"],["柯委員志恩：我只是舉出這四家裡面有點不平均。"],["史部長哲：謝謝委員給我們的提醒。"],["柯委員志恩：然後你應該去公函，目前為止，很多縣市基本上還是沒有收到文化部的公函，你應該儘量地協助。","我剩下有限的時間還是要說一下文化幣，每個人都提到文化幣一些好的或優點或是什麼之類，我只要告訴你，為同樣你出身的高雄的某家書店來請命，他們認為他們也是好好地使用文化幣，要防弊，你應該去抓文化幣買賣，但是有一些廠商是獨立書店在配合，只不過是那一次交易量突然暴增，然後它就被停權了，停權之後他們要申訴，部長，真的是從1月25號開始，我花了時間把所有事件條列出來，你看看你到底是在整人還是官僚？看看這個效率！到3月21號這樣子使用的獨立書店，目前為止還苦無出處，你知道嗎？還搞不定欸！你們的效率為什麼會搞得人家配合做文化幣的書店到3月21號還不知道該如何解決，你不覺得你們效率太低了嗎？"],["史部長哲：跟委員報告，細節我可能不清楚，不過我想從文化部的立場，我們不會有想要……"],["柯委員志恩：事實就擺在這邊啊，我還幫你標示紅字來告訴你。"],["史部長哲：事實也有可能是確實它的交易是異常啊！"],["柯委員志恩：好，是異常，那你就給人家一個到底是死、是生、是活，你就趕快告訴人家，從1月25號到3月21號了，當中還有過年的時間，很多時候是好好用文化幣來消費，買動漫、買漫畫的。"],["史部長哲：我想如果它能夠釐清它的異常交易紀錄，我們早就會恢復它的權利了。"],["柯委員志恩：我這樣子告訴你，你這麼多的訪視，這麼多的方法，到目前為止，從1月25號到3月21號，我只告訴你效率的問題，我請部長能夠正視這樣的問題。"],["史部長哲：好。"],["柯委員志恩：因為不是只有這麼一家，有很多獨立書店小本經營，當發生事情的時候，兩個月的時間沒有辦法得到一個滿意的部分，這就告訴部長，這是一個執行效率的問題，趕快給人家一個解釋，可以嗎？"],["史部長哲：好，謝謝委員的關心，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝柯志恩委員。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-5","speakers":["林宜瑾","陳秀寳","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳春城","林倩綺","范雲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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\"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 701.199, \"end\": 701.219, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 701.219, \"end\": 701.239, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:08,643\n有請史哲列部長史哲列部長\n\n2\n00:00:12,808 --> 00:00:25,840\n委員好部長好我想你已經就任一年多了而且就這個我們的準總統賴清德的說法他希望是文化立國文化是我們的根那我們就來看看文化部最近所發生的事情將對於你們的報告我們來看看文化到底有沒有它的風骨跟涵養我們先來看一下\n\n3\n00:00:31,886 --> 00:00:37,769\n具有105年歷史的建國比球場還是累積非常多的文資我想部長你知道嗎目前為止被我們行政院的政委張景森跟我們的鄭文燦副院長聯手主導要把原本包括民進黨前輩也都認為要來作為一個文化產業區的土地切割而且在4月16號馬上要通過都市計劃的變更部長你知道這件事吧\n\n4\n00:00:58,119 --> 00:01:16,470\n這幾乎讓過去七八年不斷的非常多的學者專家還有地方的居民其實對他們來說是一個非常大的損失那部長你知道你是一個最高文化資產保護的主管單位你知道這件事吧我知道這件事情不過這件事情是園區定位的變更跟古蹟的破壞這是兩個不同的事情\n\n5\n00:01:16,770 --> 00:01:37,744\n當然是有關聯啊,這麼多的人一定有來跟你做一個的懲請,包括附近的一個居民。我今天要特別強調的指出來,這個過程當中在4月22日跳過所謂的臺北市政府。我只知道文化部目前的立場是什麼?這是一個文化古蹟,這是你的立場。文化部不應該不聞不問,文化部的立場到底在哪裡?\n\n6\n00:01:38,854 --> 00:02:00,325\n文化部的立場很清楚就是有關於古蹟跟相關歷史建築的維護必須要照相關的法規來進行但是古蹟跟歷史建築的使用是做什麼目前我們的態度是開放的也尊重地方政府跟地方居民地方政府他目前也跳過台北市政府我們只希望還有包括非常多的專家希望文化部不應該做一個承諾\n\n7\n00:02:01,085 --> 00:02:02,546\n二十年來說的話已經將近總經費有99億差不多是一百\n\n8\n00:02:28,228 --> 00:02:29,370\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算：一、邀請文化部部長史哲列席報告業務概況．\n\n9\n00:02:42,381 --> 00:02:45,984\n我有看到監察院的報告可是你今天對於公共藝術目前來說你的報告當中只有106個字而且監察院特別直指當他們提出這些問題的時候你們就完全告訴大家目前為止沒有收到任何陳情舉證為由所以這次提出監察院報告我們往前面那一頁來去看\n\n10\n00:03:03,976 --> 00:03:18,907\n所以你可以看得出來部長這個代辦目前來說這個比率真的是非常的高的非常的高的我們來看下一個我的資料比經常因為可能更清楚我幫你整理一下讓部長更清楚為什麼呢公共藝術來說的話目前有將近超過100億這麼大的一筆龐大我們希望能夠鼓勵更多的藝術家但是你看看目前你用代辦的方法代辦的身兼評委代辦投標廠商我可以比你們\n\n11\n00:03:31,636 --> 00:03:46,677\n檢察院列出更清楚的這些的公司還有包括他們負責人的名字包括他們的電話跟住址部長你看一下這個很大的一個爭議是評審委員沒有做到這個利益迴避還有呢代辦公司目前這麼多人舉辦這個代辦\n\n12\n00:03:47,819 --> 00:03:56,605\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算．立法院第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第15會期教育及文化委員會第16會期\n\n13\n00:04:10,319 --> 00:04:19,711\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算８立法院第11會期教育及文化部部長史哲列席報告。二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算８立法院第11會期教育及文化部部長史哲列席報告。\n\n14\n00:04:24,858 --> 00:04:43,250\n二、代辦這個詞大概是在20年前我知道部長我只說面對這樣子的一個生態文化部積極的做法已經被監察院做這樣的糾舉了你們的積極做法是什麼所以我們從去年9月開始進行了將近20場的這個諮詢會修法諮詢那現在事實上我們的這個修法也預告了嘛\n\n15\n00:04:47,413 --> 00:05:15,364\n你們預告你們現在還在積極修法但是部長我還是必須要忍不住要告訴你你們第一場的你們絕對要來開始積極作為可是你們第一場的座談會裡面你們邀請的五位與會的人物只有一個人沒有擔任公共藝術的代辦其他四位都是有這到底是巧合還是故意就是我不斷的所提到的嘛這個東西來說的話你們第一場的你們為了要做這樣的一個修法然後請的人還是都是有跟這個代辦公司有關的\n\n16\n00:05:16,448 --> 00:05:22,933\n委員你這樣講這正好代表說我們代辦也諮詢做公共藝術也諮詢藝術家也諮詢對不起我們在看下一頁什麼叫代辦也諮詢我剛剛已經提出這麼多的一些所謂代辦跟這個評委跟藝術家比起來共生的一個團體這是我要特別提到的代辦\n\n17\n00:05:34,002 --> 00:05:52,010\n他不只自己做這個代辦他自己本身也還是推薦評選委員評選委員就選定幾個特別的藝術家所以造成這麼大的比率都是由代辦公司來去做你剛說什麼坐實我的做法不對我只告訴你代辦本身我們回到前夜已經坐實了這樣的一個三角對價的關係我問\n\n18\n00:05:54,051 --> 00:06:01,676\n當他這種事情現象發生的時候文化部的積極的作為你告訴我說你們辦了13場的這樣子的一個所謂的公聽會或是這個評議會可是裡面大家都還是認為應該持續用代辦公司的因為他們本身的背景裡面就是這個樣子我只問這部分最大部分就是你讓其他的藝術家沒有辦法得其門而入這是本席今天所強化的重點\n\n19\n00:06:19,168 --> 00:06:26,512\n但是我跟委員報告諮詢代辦並不是任何違法而且不適當的作為因為代辦是過去法規當中合法的制度我完全同意只是你這個共生的團體你這個比例到這麼高而且你比例到這麼高的狀況之下面會產生這個共生團體讓很多的藝術家不得其門入我還是再一次的強調而且我要告訴大家交通部八成在適用代辦\n\n20\n00:06:43,302 --> 00:06:43,843\n二月27日及28日二天一次會議員：柯志恩\n\n21\n00:07:00,438 --> 00:07:17,747\n跟委員報告我想代辦這個詞以及您講的這個共生關係確實讓大家對代辦有非常多的疑慮這個我承認不過公務藝術它有它的複雜度就跟我們建築工程必須要有專案管理公司要有PCM一樣我只告訴你它背後的背景是怎麼樣錯綜複雜球員兼裁判兼什麼這已經讓所有的藝術家認為你當初的美意\n\n22\n00:07:22,449 --> 00:07:30,514\n沒有辦法達成所以我要請文化部不要像是監察院所已經告訴你們的發生事情的時候不要說沒有查無實證這不是文化部該有的負責的態度只是提醒部長這件事情要嚴正的對待\n\n23\n00:07:36,425 --> 00:07:59,396\n所以我們在這一次預告的這個修法當中事實上對於代辦的制度也改變了好,我就來看看你的修法的部分是怎麼樣但是不要犯了上次第一場座談會當中五位裡面就還是不斷的在這個層面那是第一場,我也不認為那是一個錯誤我認為那是一個對的事情,謝謝我還是要告訴你五個裡面有四個都是屬於這樣的層面來說當然是第一場嘛,第一場我只告訴你總共有16場嘛好嘛,我就告訴你第一場你曾經犯過這樣的狀況嘛好不好那一場就是徵續代辦啦\n\n24\n00:08:04,718 --> 00:08:15,667\n不是嘛!你這五個裡面具有這樣的背景這就不符合這樣的邏輯而且他們本身有一個很大的一個共生這是我本身提出來的接下來有關於我們所提到的文化幣的這個層面不是我們提到的公共的這個電子閱讀我想我給你一個肯定因為前面一頁\n\n25\n00:08:21,972 --> 00:08:23,033\n從數據上來看,從實施之後,事實上使用電子借閱的成長是3倍啦。\n\n26\n00:08:45,770 --> 00:08:51,915\n三倍的錢都是文化部出的我們並不影響縣市政府的財源從這個數據上來講我認為是我肯定因為它這是一個趨勢這完全沒有問題而且你今天在報告當中說你也認為跟21個縣市來共同合作這沒有問題但是呢我們也看得出前面有跟4家廠商來做這樣的一個處理但是我還是要讓部長了解一下你前面兩個廠商\n\n27\n00:09:10,771 --> 00:09:11,111\n對,所以你怎麼解決?\n\n28\n00:09:32,874 --> 00:09:59,682\n我想這個原因應該是這樣就是說因為這個您講的後面的兩家他提供的這個量跟服務比較少嘛那文化部就要協助人家你就要去告訴人家縣市政府嘛你就要發函嘛你要發公文嘛協助人家嘛正在處理這個事情你不能只做一半嘛對不對我們發函是早就發函啦不過我也跟委員報告我們這個制度到目前為止是實施6個月嘛\n\n29\n00:10:00,462 --> 00:10:05,829\n我只是舉出這四家裡面的這個有點不平均然後你應該去做公函目前為止很多縣市基本上還是沒有收到文化部的一個公函你應該盡量的協助好剩下我有限的時間我還是要說一下文化幣每個都提到文化幣一些\n\n30\n00:10:20,146 --> 00:10:21,567\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關文化部部長史哲列席報告\n\n31\n00:10:43,425 --> 00:11:05,145\n真的從1月25日我把所有的事件我花了時間把它調列出來你看看你到底是在整人還是在官僚還是這個效率到3月21號這樣子的一個使用你們的這樣獨立的書店目前為止還苦無出處欸你知道嗎還搞不定欸你們的效率為什麼會搞得人家要配合的做文化幣的這樣的的書店搞到到3月21號還不知道該如何來做一個解決你不覺得你們效率太低了嗎\n\n32\n00:11:10,983 --> 00:11:16,078\n跟委員報告細節我可能不清楚不過我想從文化部的立場我們不會有想要\n\n33\n00:11:17,332 --> 00:11:31,456\n事實就擺在這邊我還幫你標示紅字來告訴你事實也有可能是他確實他的交易是異常的他的異常那你就給人家一個到底事實是生是活你就趕快告訴人家從1月25號到3月21號還有過年的時間很多時候是他好好用文化幣來好好的消費買動漫動漫漫畫的如果他能夠釐清他的異常交易記錄我們早就會\n\n34\n00:11:41,019 --> 00:11:41,239\n好謝謝謝謝委員的關心謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t8643\t有請史哲列部長史哲列部長\n12808\t25840\t委員好部長好我想你已經就任一年多了而且就這個我們的準總統賴清德的說法他希望是文化立國文化是我們的根那我們就來看看文化部最近所發生的事情將對於你們的報告我們來看看文化到底有沒有它的風骨跟涵養我們先來看一下\n31886\t37769\t具有105年歷史的建國比球場還是累積非常多的文資我想部長你知道嗎目前為止被我們行政院的政委張景森跟我們的鄭文燦副院長聯手主導要把原本包括民進黨前輩也都認為要來作為一個文化產業區的土地切割而且在4月16號馬上要通過都市計劃的變更部長你知道這件事吧\n58119\t76470\t這幾乎讓過去七八年不斷的非常多的學者專家還有地方的居民其實對他們來說是一個非常大的損失那部長你知道你是一個最高文化資產保護的主管單位你知道這件事吧我知道這件事情不過這件事情是園區定位的變更跟古蹟的破壞這是兩個不同的事情\n76770\t97744\t當然是有關聯啊,這麼多的人一定有來跟你做一個的懲請,包括附近的一個居民。我今天要特別強調的指出來,這個過程當中在4月22日跳過所謂的臺北市政府。我只知道文化部目前的立場是什麼?這是一個文化古蹟,這是你的立場。文化部不應該不聞不問,文化部的立場到底在哪裡?\n98854\t120325\t文化部的立場很清楚就是有關於古蹟跟相關歷史建築的維護必須要照相關的法規來進行但是古蹟跟歷史建築的使用是做什麼目前我們的態度是開放的也尊重地方政府跟地方居民地方政府他目前也跳過台北市政府我們只希望還有包括非常多的專家希望文化部不應該做一個承諾\n121085\t122546\t二十年來說的話已經將近總經費有99億差不多是一百\n148228\t149370\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算 ：一、邀請文化部部長史哲列席報告業務概況．\n162381\t165984\t我有看到監察院的報告可是你今天對於公共藝術目前來說你的報告當中只有106個字而且監察院特別直指當他們提出這些問題的時候你們就完全告訴大家目前為止沒有收到任何陳情舉證為由所以這次提出監察院報告我們往前面那一頁來去看\n183976\t198907\t所以你可以看得出來部長這個代辦目前來說這個比率真的是非常的高的非常的高的我們來看下一個我的資料比經常因為可能更清楚我幫你整理一下讓部長更清楚為什麼呢公共藝術來說的話目前有將近超過100億這麼大的一筆龐大我們希望能夠鼓勵更多的藝術家但是你看看目前你用代辦的方法代辦的身兼評委代辦投標廠商我可以比你們\n211636\t226677\t檢察院列出更清楚的這些的公司還有包括他們負責人的名字包括他們的電話跟住址部長你看一下這個很大的一個爭議是評審委員沒有做到這個利益迴避還有呢代辦公司目前這麼多人舉辦這個代辦\n227819\t236605\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算 ．立法院第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第15會期教育及文化委員會第16會期\n250319\t259711\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算 ８立法院第11會期教育及文化部部長史哲列席報告。二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算 ８立法院第11會期教育及文化部部長史哲列席報告。\n264858\t283250\t二、代辦這個詞大概是在20年前我知道部長我只說面對這樣子的一個生態文化部積極的做法已經被監察院做這樣的糾舉了你們的積極做法是什麼所以我們從去年9月開始進行了將近20場的這個諮詢會修法諮詢那現在事實上我們的這個修法也預告了嘛\n287413\t315364\t你們預告你們現在還在積極修法但是部長我還是必須要忍不住要告訴你你們第一場的你們絕對要來開始積極作為可是你們第一場的座談會裡面你們邀請的五位與會的人物只有一個人沒有擔任公共藝術的代辦其他四位都是有這到底是巧合還是故意就是我不斷的所提到的嘛這個東西來說的話你們第一場的你們為了要做這樣的一個修法然後請的人還是都是有跟這個代辦公司有關的\n316448\t322933\t委員你這樣講這正好代表說我們代辦也諮詢做公共藝術也諮詢藝術家也諮詢對不起我們在看下一頁什麼叫代辦也諮詢我剛剛已經提出這麼多的一些所謂代辦跟這個評委跟藝術家比起來共生的一個團體這是我要特別提到的代辦\n334002\t352010\t他不只自己做這個代辦他自己本身也還是推薦評選委員評選委員就選定幾個特別的藝術家所以造成這麼大的比率都是由代辦公司來去做你剛說什麼坐實我的做法不對我只告訴你代辦本身我們回到前夜已經坐實了這樣的一個三角對價的關係我問\n354051\t361676\t當他這種事情現象發生的時候文化部的積極的作為你告訴我說你們辦了13場的這樣子的一個所謂的公聽會或是這個評議會可是裡面大家都還是認為應該持續用代辦公司的因為他們本身的背景裡面就是這個樣子我只問這部分最大部分就是你讓其他的藝術家沒有辦法得其門而入這是本席今天所強化的重點\n379168\t386512\t但是我跟委員報告諮詢代辦並不是任何違法而且不適當的作為因為代辦是過去法規當中合法的制度我完全同意只是你這個共生的團體你這個比例到這麼高而且你比例到這麼高的狀況之下面會產生這個共生團體讓很多的藝術家不得其門入我還是再一次的強調而且我要告訴大家交通部八成在適用代辦\n403302\t403843\t二月27日及28日二天一次會議員：柯志恩\n420438\t437747\t跟委員報告我想代辦這個詞以及您講的這個共生關係確實讓大家對代辦有非常多的疑慮這個我承認不過公務藝術它有它的複雜度就跟我們建築工程必須要有專案管理公司要有PCM一樣我只告訴你它背後的背景是怎麼樣錯綜複雜球員兼裁判兼什麼這已經讓所有的藝術家認為你當初的美意\n442449\t450514\t沒有辦法達成所以我要請文化部不要像是監察院所已經告訴你們的發生事情的時候不要說沒有查無實證這不是文化部該有的負責的態度只是提醒部長這件事情要嚴正的對待\n456425\t479396\t所以我們在這一次預告的這個修法當中事實上對於代辦的制度也改變了好,我就來看看你的修法的部分是怎麼樣但是不要犯了上次第一場座談會當中五位裡面就還是不斷的在這個層面那是第一場,我也不認為那是一個錯誤我認為那是一個對的事情,謝謝我還是要告訴你五個裡面有四個都是屬於這樣的層面來說當然是第一場嘛,第一場我只告訴你 總共有16場嘛好嘛,我就告訴你第一場你曾經犯過這樣的狀況嘛好不好那一場就是徵續代辦啦\n484718\t495667\t不是嘛!你這五個裡面具有這樣的背景這就不符合這樣的邏輯而且他們本身有一個很大的一個共生這是我本身提出來的接下來有關於我們所提到的文化幣的這個層面不是我們提到的公共的這個電子閱讀我想我給你一個肯定因為前面一頁\n501972\t503033\t從數據上來看,從實施之後,事實上使用電子借閱的成長是3倍啦。\n525770\t531915\t三倍的錢都是文化部出的我們並不影響縣市政府的財源從這個數據上來講我認為是我肯定因為它這是一個趨勢這完全沒有問題而且你今天在報告當中說你也認為跟21個縣市來共同合作這沒有問題但是呢我們也看得出前面有跟4家廠商來做這樣的一個處理但是我還是要讓部長了解一下你前面兩個廠商\n550771\t551111\t對,所以你怎麼解決?\n572874\t599682\t我想這個原因應該是這樣就是說因為這個您講的後面的兩家他提供的這個量跟服務比較少嘛那文化部就要協助人家你就要去告訴人家縣市政府嘛你就要發函嘛你要發公文嘛協助人家嘛正在處理這個事情你不能只做一半嘛 對不對我們發函是早就發函啦不過我也跟委員報告我們這個制度到目前為止是實施6個月嘛\n600462\t605829\t我只是舉出這四家裡面的這個有點不平均然後你應該去做公函目前為止很多縣市基本上還是沒有收到文化部的一個公函你應該盡量的協助好剩下我有限的時間我還是要說一下文化幣每個都提到文化幣一些\n620146\t621567\t二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關文化部部長史哲列席報告\n643425\t665145\t真的從1月25日我把所有的事件我花了時間把它調列出來你看看你到底是在整人還是在官僚還是這個效率到3月21號這樣子的一個使用你們的這樣獨立的書店目前為止還苦無出處欸你知道嗎還搞不定欸你們的效率為什麼會搞得人家要配合的做文化幣的這樣的的書店搞到到3月21號還不知道該如何來做一個解決你不覺得你們效率太低了嗎\n670983\t676078\t跟委員報告細節我可能不清楚不過我想從文化部的立場我們不會有想要\n677332\t691456\t事實就擺在這邊我還幫你標示紅字來告訴你事實也有可能是他確實他的交易是異常的他的異常那你就給人家一個到底事實是生是活你就趕快告訴人家從1月25號到3月21號還有過年的時間很多時候是他好好用文化幣來好好的消費買動漫動漫漫畫的如果他能夠釐清他的異常交易記錄我們早就會\n701019\t701239\t好 謝謝謝謝委員的關心 謝謝謝謝\n","txt":"有請史哲列部長史哲列部長\n委員好部長好我想你已經就任一年多了而且就這個我們的準總統賴清德的說法他希望是文化立國文化是我們的根那我們就來看看文化部最近所發生的事情將對於你們的報告我們來看看文化到底有沒有它的風骨跟涵養我們先來看一下\n具有105年歷史的建國比球場還是累積非常多的文資我想部長你知道嗎目前為止被我們行政院的政委張景森跟我們的鄭文燦副院長聯手主導要把原本包括民進黨前輩也都認為要來作為一個文化產業區的土地切割而且在4月16號馬上要通過都市計劃的變更部長你知道這件事吧\n這幾乎讓過去七八年不斷的非常多的學者專家還有地方的居民其實對他們來說是一個非常大的損失那部長你知道你是一個最高文化資產保護的主管單位你知道這件事吧我知道這件事情不過這件事情是園區定位的變更跟古蹟的破壞這是兩個不同的事情\n當然是有關聯啊,這麼多的人一定有來跟你做一個的懲請,包括附近的一個居民。我今天要特別強調的指出來,這個過程當中在4月22日跳過所謂的臺北市政府。我只知道文化部目前的立場是什麼?這是一個文化古蹟,這是你的立場。文化部不應該不聞不問,文化部的立場到底在哪裡?\n文化部的立場很清楚就是有關於古蹟跟相關歷史建築的維護必須要照相關的法規來進行但是古蹟跟歷史建築的使用是做什麼目前我們的態度是開放的也尊重地方政府跟地方居民地方政府他目前也跳過台北市政府我們只希望還有包括非常多的專家希望文化部不應該做一個承諾\n二十年來說的話已經將近總經費有99億差不多是一百\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算 ：一、邀請文化部部長史哲列席報告業務概況．\n我有看到監察院的報告可是你今天對於公共藝術目前來說你的報告當中只有106個字而且監察院特別直指當他們提出這些問題的時候你們就完全告訴大家目前為止沒有收到任何陳情舉證為由所以這次提出監察院報告我們往前面那一頁來去看\n所以你可以看得出來部長這個代辦目前來說這個比率真的是非常的高的非常的高的我們來看下一個我的資料比經常因為可能更清楚我幫你整理一下讓部長更清楚為什麼呢公共藝術來說的話目前有將近超過100億這麼大的一筆龐大我們希望能夠鼓勵更多的藝術家但是你看看目前你用代辦的方法代辦的身兼評委代辦投標廠商我可以比你們\n檢察院列出更清楚的這些的公司還有包括他們負責人的名字包括他們的電話跟住址部長你看一下這個很大的一個爭議是評審委員沒有做到這個利益迴避還有呢代辦公司目前這麼多人舉辦這個代辦\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算 ．立法院第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第15會期教育及文化委員會第16會期\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算 ８立法院第11會期教育及文化部部長史哲列席報告。二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算 ８立法院第11會期教育及文化部部長史哲列席報告。\n二、代辦這個詞大概是在20年前我知道部長我只說面對這樣子的一個生態文化部積極的做法已經被監察院做這樣的糾舉了你們的積極做法是什麼所以我們從去年9月開始進行了將近20場的這個諮詢會修法諮詢那現在事實上我們的這個修法也預告了嘛\n你們預告你們現在還在積極修法但是部長我還是必須要忍不住要告訴你你們第一場的你們絕對要來開始積極作為可是你們第一場的座談會裡面你們邀請的五位與會的人物只有一個人沒有擔任公共藝術的代辦其他四位都是有這到底是巧合還是故意就是我不斷的所提到的嘛這個東西來說的話你們第一場的你們為了要做這樣的一個修法然後請的人還是都是有跟這個代辦公司有關的\n委員你這樣講這正好代表說我們代辦也諮詢做公共藝術也諮詢藝術家也諮詢對不起我們在看下一頁什麼叫代辦也諮詢我剛剛已經提出這麼多的一些所謂代辦跟這個評委跟藝術家比起來共生的一個團體這是我要特別提到的代辦\n他不只自己做這個代辦他自己本身也還是推薦評選委員評選委員就選定幾個特別的藝術家所以造成這麼大的比率都是由代辦公司來去做你剛說什麼坐實我的做法不對我只告訴你代辦本身我們回到前夜已經坐實了這樣的一個三角對價的關係我問\n當他這種事情現象發生的時候文化部的積極的作為你告訴我說你們辦了13場的這樣子的一個所謂的公聽會或是這個評議會可是裡面大家都還是認為應該持續用代辦公司的因為他們本身的背景裡面就是這個樣子我只問這部分最大部分就是你讓其他的藝術家沒有辦法得其門而入這是本席今天所強化的重點\n但是我跟委員報告諮詢代辦並不是任何違法而且不適當的作為因為代辦是過去法規當中合法的制度我完全同意只是你這個共生的團體你這個比例到這麼高而且你比例到這麼高的狀況之下面會產生這個共生團體讓很多的藝術家不得其門入我還是再一次的強調而且我要告訴大家交通部八成在適用代辦\n二月27日及28日二天一次會議員：柯志恩\n跟委員報告我想代辦這個詞以及您講的這個共生關係確實讓大家對代辦有非常多的疑慮這個我承認不過公務藝術它有它的複雜度就跟我們建築工程必須要有專案管理公司要有PCM一樣我只告訴你它背後的背景是怎麼樣錯綜複雜球員兼裁判兼什麼這已經讓所有的藝術家認為你當初的美意\n沒有辦法達成所以我要請文化部不要像是監察院所已經告訴你們的發生事情的時候不要說沒有查無實證這不是文化部該有的負責的態度只是提醒部長這件事情要嚴正的對待\n所以我們在這一次預告的這個修法當中事實上對於代辦的制度也改變了好,我就來看看你的修法的部分是怎麼樣但是不要犯了上次第一場座談會當中五位裡面就還是不斷的在這個層面那是第一場,我也不認為那是一個錯誤我認為那是一個對的事情,謝謝我還是要告訴你五個裡面有四個都是屬於這樣的層面來說當然是第一場嘛,第一場我只告訴你 總共有16場嘛好嘛,我就告訴你第一場你曾經犯過這樣的狀況嘛好不好那一場就是徵續代辦啦\n不是嘛!你這五個裡面具有這樣的背景這就不符合這樣的邏輯而且他們本身有一個很大的一個共生這是我本身提出來的接下來有關於我們所提到的文化幣的這個層面不是我們提到的公共的這個電子閱讀我想我給你一個肯定因為前面一頁\n從數據上來看,從實施之後,事實上使用電子借閱的成長是3倍啦。\n三倍的錢都是文化部出的我們並不影響縣市政府的財源從這個數據上來講我認為是我肯定因為它這是一個趨勢這完全沒有問題而且你今天在報告當中說你也認為跟21個縣市來共同合作這沒有問題但是呢我們也看得出前面有跟4家廠商來做這樣的一個處理但是我還是要讓部長了解一下你前面兩個廠商\n對,所以你怎麼解決?\n我想這個原因應該是這樣就是說因為這個您講的後面的兩家他提供的這個量跟服務比較少嘛那文化部就要協助人家你就要去告訴人家縣市政府嘛你就要發函嘛你要發公文嘛協助人家嘛正在處理這個事情你不能只做一半嘛 對不對我們發函是早就發函啦不過我也跟委員報告我們這個制度到目前為止是實施6個月嘛\n我只是舉出這四家裡面的這個有點不平均然後你應該去做公函目前為止很多縣市基本上還是沒有收到文化部的一個公函你應該盡量的協助好剩下我有限的時間我還是要說一下文化幣每個都提到文化幣一些\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關文化部部長史哲列席報告\n真的從1月25日我把所有的事件我花了時間把它調列出來你看看你到底是在整人還是在官僚還是這個效率到3月21號這樣子的一個使用你們的這樣獨立的書店目前為止還苦無出處欸你知道嗎還搞不定欸你們的效率為什麼會搞得人家要配合的做文化幣的這樣的的書店搞到到3月21號還不知道該如何來做一個解決你不覺得你們效率太低了嗎\n跟委員報告細節我可能不清楚不過我想從文化部的立場我們不會有想要\n事實就擺在這邊我還幫你標示紅字來告訴你事實也有可能是他確實他的交易是異常的他的異常那你就給人家一個到底事實是生是活你就趕快告訴人家從1月25號到3月21號還有過年的時間很多時候是他好好用文化幣來好好的消費買動漫動漫漫畫的如果他能夠釐清他的異常交易記錄我們早就會\n好 謝謝謝謝委員的關心 謝謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:08.643\n有請史哲列部長史哲列部長\n\n00:12.808 --> 00:25.840\n委員好部長好我想你已經就任一年多了而且就這個我們的準總統賴清德的說法他希望是文化立國文化是我們的根那我們就來看看文化部最近所發生的事情將對於你們的報告我們來看看文化到底有沒有它的風骨跟涵養我們先來看一下\n\n00:31.886 --> 00:37.769\n具有105年歷史的建國比球場還是累積非常多的文資我想部長你知道嗎目前為止被我們行政院的政委張景森跟我們的鄭文燦副院長聯手主導要把原本包括民進黨前輩也都認為要來作為一個文化產業區的土地切割而且在4月16號馬上要通過都市計劃的變更部長你知道這件事吧\n\n00:58.119 --> 01:16.470\n這幾乎讓過去七八年不斷的非常多的學者專家還有地方的居民其實對他們來說是一個非常大的損失那部長你知道你是一個最高文化資產保護的主管單位你知道這件事吧我知道這件事情不過這件事情是園區定位的變更跟古蹟的破壞這是兩個不同的事情\n\n01:16.770 --> 01:37.744\n當然是有關聯啊,這麼多的人一定有來跟你做一個的懲請,包括附近的一個居民。我今天要特別強調的指出來,這個過程當中在4月22日跳過所謂的臺北市政府。我只知道文化部目前的立場是什麼?這是一個文化古蹟,這是你的立場。文化部不應該不聞不問,文化部的立場到底在哪裡?\n\n01:38.854 --> 02:00.325\n文化部的立場很清楚就是有關於古蹟跟相關歷史建築的維護必須要照相關的法規來進行但是古蹟跟歷史建築的使用是做什麼目前我們的態度是開放的也尊重地方政府跟地方居民地方政府他目前也跳過台北市政府我們只希望還有包括非常多的專家希望文化部不應該做一個承諾\n\n02:01.085 --> 02:02.546\n二十年來說的話已經將近總經費有99億差不多是一百\n\n02:28.228 --> 02:29.370\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算：一、邀請文化部部長史哲列席報告業務概況．\n\n02:42.381 --> 02:45.984\n我有看到監察院的報告可是你今天對於公共藝術目前來說你的報告當中只有106個字而且監察院特別直指當他們提出這些問題的時候你們就完全告訴大家目前為止沒有收到任何陳情舉證為由所以這次提出監察院報告我們往前面那一頁來去看\n\n03:03.976 --> 03:18.907\n所以你可以看得出來部長這個代辦目前來說這個比率真的是非常的高的非常的高的我們來看下一個我的資料比經常因為可能更清楚我幫你整理一下讓部長更清楚為什麼呢公共藝術來說的話目前有將近超過100億這麼大的一筆龐大我們希望能夠鼓勵更多的藝術家但是你看看目前你用代辦的方法代辦的身兼評委代辦投標廠商我可以比你們\n\n03:31.636 --> 03:46.677\n檢察院列出更清楚的這些的公司還有包括他們負責人的名字包括他們的電話跟住址部長你看一下這個很大的一個爭議是評審委員沒有做到這個利益迴避還有呢代辦公司目前這麼多人舉辦這個代辦\n\n03:47.819 --> 03:56.605\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算．立法院第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第15會期教育及文化委員會第16會期\n\n04:10.319 --> 04:19.711\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算８立法院第11會期教育及文化部部長史哲列席報告。二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算８立法院第11會期教育及文化部部長史哲列席報告。\n\n04:24.858 --> 04:43.250\n二、代辦這個詞大概是在20年前我知道部長我只說面對這樣子的一個生態文化部積極的做法已經被監察院做這樣的糾舉了你們的積極做法是什麼所以我們從去年9月開始進行了將近20場的這個諮詢會修法諮詢那現在事實上我們的這個修法也預告了嘛\n\n04:47.413 --> 05:15.364\n你們預告你們現在還在積極修法但是部長我還是必須要忍不住要告訴你你們第一場的你們絕對要來開始積極作為可是你們第一場的座談會裡面你們邀請的五位與會的人物只有一個人沒有擔任公共藝術的代辦其他四位都是有這到底是巧合還是故意就是我不斷的所提到的嘛這個東西來說的話你們第一場的你們為了要做這樣的一個修法然後請的人還是都是有跟這個代辦公司有關的\n\n05:16.448 --> 05:22.933\n委員你這樣講這正好代表說我們代辦也諮詢做公共藝術也諮詢藝術家也諮詢對不起我們在看下一頁什麼叫代辦也諮詢我剛剛已經提出這麼多的一些所謂代辦跟這個評委跟藝術家比起來共生的一個團體這是我要特別提到的代辦\n\n05:34.002 --> 05:52.010\n他不只自己做這個代辦他自己本身也還是推薦評選委員評選委員就選定幾個特別的藝術家所以造成這麼大的比率都是由代辦公司來去做你剛說什麼坐實我的做法不對我只告訴你代辦本身我們回到前夜已經坐實了這樣的一個三角對價的關係我問\n\n05:54.051 --> 06:01.676\n當他這種事情現象發生的時候文化部的積極的作為你告訴我說你們辦了13場的這樣子的一個所謂的公聽會或是這個評議會可是裡面大家都還是認為應該持續用代辦公司的因為他們本身的背景裡面就是這個樣子我只問這部分最大部分就是你讓其他的藝術家沒有辦法得其門而入這是本席今天所強化的重點\n\n06:19.168 --> 06:26.512\n但是我跟委員報告諮詢代辦並不是任何違法而且不適當的作為因為代辦是過去法規當中合法的制度我完全同意只是你這個共生的團體你這個比例到這麼高而且你比例到這麼高的狀況之下面會產生這個共生團體讓很多的藝術家不得其門入我還是再一次的強調而且我要告訴大家交通部八成在適用代辦\n\n06:43.302 --> 06:43.843\n二月27日及28日二天一次會議員：柯志恩\n\n07:00.438 --> 07:17.747\n跟委員報告我想代辦這個詞以及您講的這個共生關係確實讓大家對代辦有非常多的疑慮這個我承認不過公務藝術它有它的複雜度就跟我們建築工程必須要有專案管理公司要有PCM一樣我只告訴你它背後的背景是怎麼樣錯綜複雜球員兼裁判兼什麼這已經讓所有的藝術家認為你當初的美意\n\n07:22.449 --> 07:30.514\n沒有辦法達成所以我要請文化部不要像是監察院所已經告訴你們的發生事情的時候不要說沒有查無實證這不是文化部該有的負責的態度只是提醒部長這件事情要嚴正的對待\n\n07:36.425 --> 07:59.396\n所以我們在這一次預告的這個修法當中事實上對於代辦的制度也改變了好,我就來看看你的修法的部分是怎麼樣但是不要犯了上次第一場座談會當中五位裡面就還是不斷的在這個層面那是第一場,我也不認為那是一個錯誤我認為那是一個對的事情,謝謝我還是要告訴你五個裡面有四個都是屬於這樣的層面來說當然是第一場嘛,第一場我只告訴你總共有16場嘛好嘛,我就告訴你第一場你曾經犯過這樣的狀況嘛好不好那一場就是徵續代辦啦\n\n08:04.718 --> 08:15.667\n不是嘛!你這五個裡面具有這樣的背景這就不符合這樣的邏輯而且他們本身有一個很大的一個共生這是我本身提出來的接下來有關於我們所提到的文化幣的這個層面不是我們提到的公共的這個電子閱讀我想我給你一個肯定因為前面一頁\n\n08:21.972 --> 08:23.033\n從數據上來看,從實施之後,事實上使用電子借閱的成長是3倍啦。\n\n08:45.770 --> 08:51.915\n三倍的錢都是文化部出的我們並不影響縣市政府的財源從這個數據上來講我認為是我肯定因為它這是一個趨勢這完全沒有問題而且你今天在報告當中說你也認為跟21個縣市來共同合作這沒有問題但是呢我們也看得出前面有跟4家廠商來做這樣的一個處理但是我還是要讓部長了解一下你前面兩個廠商\n\n09:10.771 --> 09:11.111\n對,所以你怎麼解決?\n\n09:32.874 --> 09:59.682\n我想這個原因應該是這樣就是說因為這個您講的後面的兩家他提供的這個量跟服務比較少嘛那文化部就要協助人家你就要去告訴人家縣市政府嘛你就要發函嘛你要發公文嘛協助人家嘛正在處理這個事情你不能只做一半嘛對不對我們發函是早就發函啦不過我也跟委員報告我們這個制度到目前為止是實施6個月嘛\n\n10:00.462 --> 10:05.829\n我只是舉出這四家裡面的這個有點不平均然後你應該去做公函目前為止很多縣市基本上還是沒有收到文化部的一個公函你應該盡量的協助好剩下我有限的時間我還是要說一下文化幣每個都提到文化幣一些\n\n10:20.146 --> 10:21.567\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關文化部部長史哲列席報告\n\n10:43.425 --> 11:05.145\n真的從1月25日我把所有的事件我花了時間把它調列出來你看看你到底是在整人還是在官僚還是這個效率到3月21號這樣子的一個使用你們的這樣獨立的書店目前為止還苦無出處欸你知道嗎還搞不定欸你們的效率為什麼會搞得人家要配合的做文化幣的這樣的的書店搞到到3月21號還不知道該如何來做一個解決你不覺得你們效率太低了嗎\n\n11:10.983 --> 11:16.078\n跟委員報告細節我可能不清楚不過我想從文化部的立場我們不會有想要\n\n11:17.332 --> 11:31.456\n事實就擺在這邊我還幫你標示紅字來告訴你事實也有可能是他確實他的交易是異常的他的異常那你就給人家一個到底事實是生是活你就趕快告訴人家從1月25號到3月21號還有過年的時間很多時候是他好好用文化幣來好好的消費買動漫動漫漫畫的如果他能夠釐清他的異常交易記錄我們早就會\n\n11:41.019 --> 11:41.239\n好謝謝謝謝委員的關心謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":8.643,"text":"有請史哲列部長史哲列部長"},{"start":12.808,"end":25.84,"text":"委員好部長好我想你已經就任一年多了而且就這個我們的準總統賴清德的說法他希望是文化立國文化是我們的根那我們就來看看文化部最近所發生的事情將對於你們的報告我們來看看文化到底有沒有它的風骨跟涵養我們先來看一下"},{"start":31.886,"end":37.769,"text":"具有105年歷史的建國比球場還是累積非常多的文資我想部長你知道嗎目前為止被我們行政院的政委張景森跟我們的鄭文燦副院長聯手主導要把原本包括民進黨前輩也都認為要來作為一個文化產業區的土地切割而且在4月16號馬上要通過都市計劃的變更部長你知道這件事吧"},{"start":58.119,"end":76.47,"text":"這幾乎讓過去七八年不斷的非常多的學者專家還有地方的居民其實對他們來說是一個非常大的損失那部長你知道你是一個最高文化資產保護的主管單位你知道這件事吧我知道這件事情不過這件事情是園區定位的變更跟古蹟的破壞這是兩個不同的事情"},{"start":76.77,"end":97.744,"text":"當然是有關聯啊,這麼多的人一定有來跟你做一個的懲請,包括附近的一個居民。我今天要特別強調的指出來,這個過程當中在4月22日跳過所謂的臺北市政府。我只知道文化部目前的立場是什麼?這是一個文化古蹟,這是你的立場。文化部不應該不聞不問,文化部的立場到底在哪裡?"},{"start":98.854,"end":120.325,"text":"文化部的立場很清楚就是有關於古蹟跟相關歷史建築的維護必須要照相關的法規來進行但是古蹟跟歷史建築的使用是做什麼目前我們的態度是開放的也尊重地方政府跟地方居民地方政府他目前也跳過台北市政府我們只希望還有包括非常多的專家希望文化部不應該做一個承諾"},{"start":121.085,"end":122.546,"text":"二十年來說的話已經將近總經費有99億差不多是一百"},{"start":148.228,"end":149.37,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算 ：一、邀請文化部部長史哲列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":162.381,"end":165.984,"text":"我有看到監察院的報告可是你今天對於公共藝術目前來說你的報告當中只有106個字而且監察院特別直指當他們提出這些問題的時候你們就完全告訴大家目前為止沒有收到任何陳情舉證為由所以這次提出監察院報告我們往前面那一頁來去看"},{"start":183.976,"end":198.907,"text":"所以你可以看得出來部長這個代辦目前來說這個比率真的是非常的高的非常的高的我們來看下一個我的資料比經常因為可能更清楚我幫你整理一下讓部長更清楚為什麼呢公共藝術來說的話目前有將近超過100億這麼大的一筆龐大我們希望能夠鼓勵更多的藝術家但是你看看目前你用代辦的方法代辦的身兼評委代辦投標廠商我可以比你們"},{"start":211.636,"end":226.677,"text":"檢察院列出更清楚的這些的公司還有包括他們負責人的名字包括他們的電話跟住址部長你看一下這個很大的一個爭議是評審委員沒有做到這個利益迴避還有呢代辦公司目前這麼多人舉辦這個代辦"},{"start":227.819,"end":236.605,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算 ．立法院第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第15會期教育及文化委員會第16會期"},{"start":250.319,"end":259.711,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算 ８立法院第11會期教育及文化部部長史哲列席報告。二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算 ８立法院第11會期教育及文化部部長史哲列席報告。"},{"start":264.858,"end":283.25,"text":"二、代辦這個詞大概是在20年前我知道部長我只說面對這樣子的一個生態文化部積極的做法已經被監察院做這樣的糾舉了你們的積極做法是什麼所以我們從去年9月開始進行了將近20場的這個諮詢會修法諮詢那現在事實上我們的這個修法也預告了嘛"},{"start":287.413,"end":315.364,"text":"你們預告你們現在還在積極修法但是部長我還是必須要忍不住要告訴你你們第一場的你們絕對要來開始積極作為可是你們第一場的座談會裡面你們邀請的五位與會的人物只有一個人沒有擔任公共藝術的代辦其他四位都是有這到底是巧合還是故意就是我不斷的所提到的嘛這個東西來說的話你們第一場的你們為了要做這樣的一個修法然後請的人還是都是有跟這個代辦公司有關的"},{"start":316.448,"end":322.933,"text":"委員你這樣講這正好代表說我們代辦也諮詢做公共藝術也諮詢藝術家也諮詢對不起我們在看下一頁什麼叫代辦也諮詢我剛剛已經提出這麼多的一些所謂代辦跟這個評委跟藝術家比起來共生的一個團體這是我要特別提到的代辦"},{"start":334.002,"end":352.01,"text":"他不只自己做這個代辦他自己本身也還是推薦評選委員評選委員就選定幾個特別的藝術家所以造成這麼大的比率都是由代辦公司來去做你剛說什麼坐實我的做法不對我只告訴你代辦本身我們回到前夜已經坐實了這樣的一個三角對價的關係我問"},{"start":354.051,"end":361.676,"text":"當他這種事情現象發生的時候文化部的積極的作為你告訴我說你們辦了13場的這樣子的一個所謂的公聽會或是這個評議會可是裡面大家都還是認為應該持續用代辦公司的因為他們本身的背景裡面就是這個樣子我只問這部分最大部分就是你讓其他的藝術家沒有辦法得其門而入這是本席今天所強化的重點"},{"start":379.168,"end":386.512,"text":"但是我跟委員報告諮詢代辦並不是任何違法而且不適當的作為因為代辦是過去法規當中合法的制度我完全同意只是你這個共生的團體你這個比例到這麼高而且你比例到這麼高的狀況之下面會產生這個共生團體讓很多的藝術家不得其門入我還是再一次的強調而且我要告訴大家交通部八成在適用代辦"},{"start":403.302,"end":403.843,"text":"二月27日及28日二天一次會議員：柯志恩"},{"start":420.438,"end":437.747,"text":"跟委員報告我想代辦這個詞以及您講的這個共生關係確實讓大家對代辦有非常多的疑慮這個我承認不過公務藝術它有它的複雜度就跟我們建築工程必須要有專案管理公司要有PCM一樣我只告訴你它背後的背景是怎麼樣錯綜複雜球員兼裁判兼什麼這已經讓所有的藝術家認為你當初的美意"},{"start":442.449,"end":450.514,"text":"沒有辦法達成所以我要請文化部不要像是監察院所已經告訴你們的發生事情的時候不要說沒有查無實證這不是文化部該有的負責的態度只是提醒部長這件事情要嚴正的對待"},{"start":456.425,"end":479.396,"text":"所以我們在這一次預告的這個修法當中事實上對於代辦的制度也改變了好,我就來看看你的修法的部分是怎麼樣但是不要犯了上次第一場座談會當中五位裡面就還是不斷的在這個層面那是第一場,我也不認為那是一個錯誤我認為那是一個對的事情,謝謝我還是要告訴你五個裡面有四個都是屬於這樣的層面來說當然是第一場嘛,第一場我只告訴你 總共有16場嘛好嘛,我就告訴你第一場你曾經犯過這樣的狀況嘛好不好那一場就是徵續代辦啦"},{"start":484.718,"end":495.667,"text":"不是嘛!你這五個裡面具有這樣的背景這就不符合這樣的邏輯而且他們本身有一個很大的一個共生這是我本身提出來的接下來有關於我們所提到的文化幣的這個層面不是我們提到的公共的這個電子閱讀我想我給你一個肯定因為前面一頁"},{"start":501.972,"end":503.033,"text":"從數據上來看,從實施之後,事實上使用電子借閱的成長是3倍啦。"},{"start":525.77,"end":531.915,"text":"三倍的錢都是文化部出的我們並不影響縣市政府的財源從這個數據上來講我認為是我肯定因為它這是一個趨勢這完全沒有問題而且你今天在報告當中說你也認為跟21個縣市來共同合作這沒有問題但是呢我們也看得出前面有跟4家廠商來做這樣的一個處理但是我還是要讓部長了解一下你前面兩個廠商"},{"start":550.771,"end":551.111,"text":"對,所以你怎麼解決?"},{"start":572.874,"end":599.682,"text":"我想這個原因應該是這樣就是說因為這個您講的後面的兩家他提供的這個量跟服務比較少嘛那文化部就要協助人家你就要去告訴人家縣市政府嘛你就要發函嘛你要發公文嘛協助人家嘛正在處理這個事情你不能只做一半嘛 對不對我們發函是早就發函啦不過我也跟委員報告我們這個制度到目前為止是實施6個月嘛"},{"start":600.462,"end":605.829,"text":"我只是舉出這四家裡面的這個有點不平均然後你應該去做公函目前為止很多縣市基本上還是沒有收到文化部的一個公函你應該盡量的協助好剩下我有限的時間我還是要說一下文化幣每個都提到文化幣一些"},{"start":620.146,"end":621.567,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關文化部部長史哲列席報告"},{"start":643.425,"end":665.145,"text":"真的從1月25日我把所有的事件我花了時間把它調列出來你看看你到底是在整人還是在官僚還是這個效率到3月21號這樣子的一個使用你們的這樣獨立的書店目前為止還苦無出處欸你知道嗎還搞不定欸你們的效率為什麼會搞得人家要配合的做文化幣的這樣的的書店搞到到3月21號還不知道該如何來做一個解決你不覺得你們效率太低了嗎"},{"start":670.983,"end":676.078,"text":"跟委員報告細節我可能不清楚不過我想從文化部的立場我們不會有想要"},{"start":677.332,"end":691.456,"text":"事實就擺在這邊我還幫你標示紅字來告訴你事實也有可能是他確實他的交易是異常的他的異常那你就給人家一個到底事實是生是活你就趕快告訴人家從1月25號到3月21號還有過年的時間很多時候是他好好用文化幣來好好的消費買動漫動漫漫畫的如果他能夠釐清他的異常交易記錄我們早就會"},{"start":701.019,"end":701.239,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝委員的關心 謝謝謝謝"}]}}}}