{"id":150455,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150455","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d52d38a8861c78ab206e9ac27f41e17f3cf8ba9b0039caa7a62368db663b262ab65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:03:24 - 10:15:04","影片長度":"00:11:40","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長及行政院相關機關（含事業單位）列席就「政府機關推動人事服務數位轉型」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。\n【其中7案如經院會復議，則不予審查、處理】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-9"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":700,"end_time":"2024-03-27T10:15:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T10:03:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時3分）主席，有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：人事長，請教一下五一勞動節是不是可以全國一致性的放假？陳建仁院長昨天說再兩個禮拜宣布結果，請問目前這個案子研議的情況如何？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，因為這個案子的主責是內政部，昨天院長也提了，大概兩個禮拜以內announce今年的5月1號是否放假。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教一下，上次本席在委員會質詢人事長的時候，有要求說軍公教調薪能夠法制化，對不對？那人事長你的回答是說朝年底完成法制化來努力，對不對？就有期限、時程了。"],["蘇部長建榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：法制化有一項很重要的議題，就是長久以來，軍公教團體都希望軍公教員工待遇審議委員會，能夠比照勞工基本工資審議委員會納入基層員工代表，我想請教一下人事長你怎麼看？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我非常認同委員的建議，事實上這一次在法制化的過程中，對於納入基層的這些公教同仁代表，我們也是併同研議，所以有納入併同研議。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，那為什麼我看到的資料說，之前人事總處對外表示反對審議委員納入基層員工代表呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這可能在表達的方式有一點……我們也會改進。"],["羅委員智強：請我們人事長督促一下。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["羅委員智強：我也謝謝人事長，因為我個人的看法很簡單，現在審議委員會都是機關首長跟十二職等以上的主管，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有學者，也有中央機關，還有地方機關。"],["羅委員智強：學者專家以外啦！我看就是人事長、銓敘部，然後副處長兼任副召集人，委員14到16人，4人專家學者，其他是各部會、地方政府簡任十二職等以上，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：剛才委員只講了十二職等以上，事實上他是所謂機關代表的概念。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！我只是想講說高層主管是人、基層公務員就不是人的概念嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是、不是，這句話我一定要澄清。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，你實際的結果就是沒有把基層公務員的心聲放進去，這很容易造成慣老闆現象你知道吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這是在溝通上，我們沒有……"],["羅委員智強：沒有關係，剛剛人事長你自己都知道這個方法不對，不是嗎？所以你剛剛才主張基層員工要放進去，不然如果你這個做法是對的，你為什麼剛剛又主張基層員工要放進去呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡必須要跟委員說明一下，原來的審議委員會它是一個代表性的，為了去處理這個事情，我們前兩年事實上在審議委員會……"],["羅委員智強：好，沒有關係，我跟你講歷史的東西就過去啦！我還是肯定你願意改啦！可以吧？我肯定你總沒意見了吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：非常謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：接下來，我們的軍公教團體、教育團體也講出軍公教的待遇調整跟最低工資都是國家政策的一部分，應該具有相同的公開、透明跟民主的性質，現在同為受僱者，基本工資審議委員會有納入勞工代表，現在也應該要把我們基層員工的心聲放進去。但是我想請教你下一個問題，就是之前的前人事總處人事長施能傑，他有研究一個數據分析，年金改革實施之後，我們公務員總退休率是呈現下降的趨勢，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：好，那為什麼？我看一下數字是，2017年之前公務人員總退休率都大於2.5%，2015年甚至高達3.26%，但是政黨輪替後，2017年總退休率一直往下，到2021年之前都沒有超過兩個百分點，平均退休率來看，年改前2011年到2016年的總退休率平均是2.84%，年改後總退休率降為1.82%，這個部分它造成的現象是什麼？為什麼會有這種現象？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我必須要跟委員提一下，就是因為整個在少子化的過程裡面，我們要……"],["羅委員智強：這不純粹是少子化。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，因為它的議題也是蠻多元的，只是說我們希望有一些有經驗的……當然委員你care的就是留下來的話，公務同仁的年紀越來越老，年輕的就會比較少，會有這個議題，可是我們另外一個思考的方向是，有經驗的人，尤其我們現在的身體情況比以前好很多……"],["羅委員智強：我知道你要講說我們現在高齡化社會，工作也是高齡化社會的一種生活型態，對不對？可是我跟你講，有你想的這麼夢幻嗎？不是吧！原因是什麼？因為年金改革，退休金大幅縮水不是嗎？所以公務員要延後退休，累積年資增加俸點，才能夠提高退休金，所以根本還是在於我們今天的退休金大幅縮水。另外，你剛剛已經講了一個，就是你會造成我們的公務機關高齡化，高齡化就是因為退休的狀況減少，對不對？延後嘛！沒錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有部分人會延後。"],["羅委員智強：部分人？整體數字從2.84%下降到1.82%，不純粹是個人了，已經是現象，好不好？已經是現象，所以是現在公務機關高齡結構的一個趨向。另外，剛剛你自己也主動講了，請問現在我們公務人員的報考人數，數十年減幅高達56%，對不對？大幅下減，所以因此造成我們今天優秀的人才也開始減少，你要知道過去報考人數多，對不對？相對人才增補的空間比較大，但是報考人數少，增補的空間就比較小嘛！所以這個部分當然對公務機關的整個運作也產生影響，可是我看上次人事長就把它說成是少子化的問題，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不過我利用這個機會澄清一下，事實上報考人數降低並不是在年金改革之後就降低，在102年……"],["羅委員智強：我講的是兩個議題啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：慢慢的就降下來了，因為現在來報考的，一個是報考率，一個是錄取率，事實上，我們現在每一年都維持大概四千多個同仁。"],["羅委員智強：我之前有拿到數字，也給你看過了，對不對？比照之前大概幾十年前的數字，現在報考人數確實大幅下降，沒錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是事實。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！這是事實。因此不純粹是你剛剛講的少子化，因為我們少子化也沒少子到這種程度，少子化浪潮也沒淹到這種程度，不是嗎？所以就是少子化以外的因素嘛！","我接下來跟各位講，當然跟公務員待遇有關係啊！不是嗎？公務員的待遇也好，退休金也好，在下降的過程當中，我們人事長是公家機關的頭頭，我剛剛看到你也會笑，我在講你也會笑，為什麼？我幫大家講話嘛！今天如果待遇減少，當然人願意留下來的那個動力就會下降，這點應該沒錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：待遇一定會影響每一個公務同仁留下來的意願，這是正相關。"],["羅委員智強：年金改革從2018年7月上路，退休公教人員支領月退金，18%的優存，兩年半就把它歸零，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：所得替代率10年過渡期，改革首年降到本俸兩倍的75%，再連續10年每年降1.5%，在2029年要降到60%對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教您，現在其實已經有委員提案修正公務員退休資遣撫卹法以及公立教職員退休資遣撫卹條例，我想請問一下人事長，你的看法是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想我尊重大院的提案權，事實上我們在整個制度設計，每5年我們內部就會去做一個檢討。"],["羅委員智強：很好啊！那就看我們立法院怎麼審議嘛！對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個……"],["羅委員智強：我現在想請教您，因應物價的變動跟通貨膨脹，今年軍公教的月退金調高4%，如果不贊成停止遞減年金所得替代率，對於公教團體的另外一個訴求，就是比照勞工保險條例的規定，當消費者物價指數累計成長率達50%就要按照這個成長率來調整，變成是一個法制化的作法，您同意嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這個要由主管機關──就是銓敘部、國防部跟教育部這些主管機關……"],["羅委員智強：你們人事總處總能夠幫軍公教代言一下心聲吧！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我會把委員的意見轉達……"],["羅委員智強：你放心，這些單位在我們本委員會，我也會質詢，但我是問你人事總處人事長的意見，我是支持比照，因為現在……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會把委員的意見轉達給這些機關。"],["羅委員智強：好，最後針對預算凍結的一些問題，我想請教一下，因為我看到幾個問題，我舉個例子，我看到預算凍結，比如第一個案子裡面有一個緣由是，建請人事行政總處要求各主管機關建立主動抽查所屬機關之機制，並列入人事業務績效考核，以利政府機關落實工時新制，對不對？這是報告第3頁。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：可是我沒有看到你整個抽查的情形如何跟抽查的績效。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：抽查情形如何，我們會後提供給委員。"],["羅委員智強：這個凍結你的時候就是要你做這件事情，結果你現在要解凍，你跟我講你還要再補報告，那是不是今天就不用審解凍案了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實我跟委員報告，今年的績效考核，我們就已經列入了。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，你上面的報告沒寫啊！這才是問題，當它已經白紙黑字指你的抽查制度，你抽查績效也不寫進去。很多啦！因為我時間到了，我看主席都站起來了，我們審凍結報告的時候，我可能也要講一下，很多凍結你的原因，你在報告裡也不去應答，請問解凍要解什麼啊？也就是原來凍結你的原因狀態全部存在啊！那麼想請教，我們怎麼解凍啊？因為時間因素，我不耽擱後面的時間，以上。"],["主席：好，要改進啦！謝謝我們羅智強委員。","下一位質詢委員，我們請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-9","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","謝龍介","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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0.903}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"納\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 74.71, \"end\": 74.91, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 74.91, \"end\": 75.51, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"層\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 75.51, \"end\": 75.811, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 75.811, \"end\": 76.131, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 76.131, \"end\": 76.952, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 76.952, \"end\": 77.032, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 77.032, \"end\": 77.092, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 77.092, \"end\": 77.512, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 77.512, \"end\": 77.732, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 77.732, \"end\": 77.833, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 77.833, \"end\": 78.493, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 78.493, \"end\": 79.234, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 105.339, \"end\": 105.599, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 105.599, \"end\": 106.019, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 106.019, \"end\": 106.219, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 106.219, \"end\": 106.4, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 106.4, \"end\": 107.22, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 107.22, \"end\": 107.661, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 107.661, \"end\": 107.801, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 107.801, \"end\": 108.661, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 108.661, \"end\": 108.781, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 108.781, \"end\": 109.002, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 109.002, \"end\": 109.222, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 109.222, \"end\": 109.502, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 109.502, \"end\": 109.682, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 109.682, \"end\": 110.062, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 110.062, \"end\": 110.343, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 110.343, \"end\": 110.503, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 110.503, \"end\": 110.643, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 110.643, \"end\": 110.803, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 110.803, \"end\": 111.203, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 111.203, \"end\": 111.363, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 111.363, \"end\": 111.544, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 111.544, \"end\": 111.804, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 111.804, \"end\": 112.264, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", 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\"end\": 699.848, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 699.848, \"end\": 699.868, \"score\": 0.993}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,375 --> 00:00:28,326\n主席有請人事長請人事長委員長委員長請教一下吳亦郎凍結是不是可以全國一致性的放假那陳建元院長昨天說在兩個禮拜宣布結果請問目前這個案子研議的情況如何\n\n2\n00:00:31,262 --> 00:00:53,851\n我跟委員報告因為這個案子的主責是在內政部那現在行政院我就是昨天院長也提了嘛大概兩個禮拜以內會announce今年的5月1號是我放假我想請教一下上次本席在委員會質詢人事長的時候有要求說軍公教條新能夠法制化對不對\n\n3\n00:00:54,651 --> 00:01:19,894\n那人事長你的回答是說朝年底完成法制化來努力嘛對不對就有期限了嘛對不對失誠了嘛那裡面法制化有一項很重要的議題就是說長久以來軍公教團體都希望軍公教員工待遇審議委員會能夠比照勞工基本工資審議委員會納入基層員工代表那我想請教一下那個人事長你怎麼看\n\n4\n00:01:21,312 --> 00:01:40,275\n我非常認同委員的建議啦。事實上這一次在法制化的過程中我納入基層的這些公教同仁代表我們也是並同言議。有納入並同言議。非常好。那為什麼我看到資料說之前人事總處對外表示反對審議委員納入基層員工代表呢?\n\n5\n00:01:40,855 --> 00:01:59,310\n這可能在表達的方式有一點我們會改進那請人事我們人事長都處一下那現在我也謝謝人事長已經是表達因為我個人看法很簡單啦就現在審議委員會都是機關首長跟12職等以上的主官嘛對不對主管嘛\n\n6\n00:02:00,795 --> 00:02:19,077\n按照有學者專家以外啦對,我看到就是人事長全序部然後副處長兼任副召集人委員14到16人四人專家學者其他是各部會地方政府檢任12職的以上嘛對不對\n\n7\n00:02:20,583 --> 00:02:42,503\n事實上剛才委員指教的12指等以上事實上他是所謂的機關代表的概念對啊那我只是想說高層主管是人基層公務員就不是人的概念嗎?這一句話我一定要澄清我跟你講你實際的結果就沒有把基層的那個公務員新生放進去嘛這很容易造成慣老闆現象你知道吧?\n\n8\n00:02:47,657 --> 00:02:59,459\n沒有關係,剛剛人事長你自己都知道這個方法不對嘛,不是嗎?所以你才剛剛主張要基層員工要放進去啊?不然如果你這個做法是對的,你為什麼剛剛又主張基層員工要放進去呢?\n\n9\n00:03:01,460 --> 00:03:20,382\n我這裡必須要跟委員說明一下原來的審議委員會他是一個代表性的那事實上為了去處理這個事情我們前兩年事實上在審議委員會之前沒有關係我跟你講歷史的東西就過去啦我還是肯定你願意改啦可以吧我肯定你總沒意見了吧\n\n10\n00:03:22,558 --> 00:03:51,641\n接下來我們軍公教的團體教育團體也講出軍公教的待遇調整那麼跟最低工資都是國家政策一部分應該具有相同的公開透明跟民主的性質那現在同為受僱者基本工資審議委員會有納入來勞工代表那現在也應該要把我們基層員工的薪生放進去但是我想請教你一個下一個問題就是\n\n11\n00:03:53,341 --> 00:04:06,572\n之前的前人事總處的人事長施能傑他有研究一個數據分析年金改革實施之後我們公務員總退休率是呈現下降的趨勢對不對是那為什麼\n\n12\n00:04:10,322 --> 00:04:36,844\n我看一下數字是2017年之前公務人員總退休率都大於2.5%2015年甚至高達3.26%但是政黨輪替2017年總退休率一直往下到2021年之前都沒有超過2個百分點平均退休率來看年改前2011年到2016年的總退休率是平均是2.84年改後總退休率降為1.82\n\n13\n00:04:38,846 --> 00:04:53,155\n那麼這個部分它造成的一個現象是什麼為什麼會有這種現象我這裡我必須要跟委員提一下就是因為整個在掃紙化的過程裡面這不純粹是掃紙化因為它的議題也是蠻多元的只是說我們希望有一些有經驗的當然委員你care就是說\n\n14\n00:05:04,623 --> 00:05:24,775\n公務同仁的年紀越來越老,年輕人的補助會有這個議題嗎?可是我們另外一個顧面思考的就是你有經驗的人,尤其我們現在身體情況比以前好很多嗎?我知道你講說我們現在高齡化社會工作也是高齡化社會一種生活型態嘛對不對?\n\n15\n00:05:26,087 --> 00:05:35,141\n可是我跟你講,有你想得這麼夢幻嗎?不是吧?原因是什麼?因為年金改革退休金大幅縮水啊,不是嗎?\n\n16\n00:05:36,243 --> 00:06:01,493\n所以公務員要延後退休累積年資增加縫點才能夠提高退休金所以根本還是在於說我們今天的所謂的年金的退休金大幅縮水那另外這個你剛剛已經講了一個就是你會造成說今天我們這個公務機關也高齡化高齡化因為第一個就是退休的狀況減少嘛對不對延後嘛沒錯吧\n\n17\n00:06:02,776 --> 00:06:15,983\n有部分人會延後有部分人就整個整體數字2.84下降1.82這整體數字不純粹是個人了啦已經是現象好不好已經現象這還是講說這個我們講現在的公務機關的高齡結構的一個趨向另外剛剛你自己也主動講了請問現在的我們的公務人員報考人數數十年減幅高達56%對不對\n\n18\n00:06:31,312 --> 00:06:59,437\n將近減掉大幅下減所以因此造成我們今天優秀的人才也開始你要知道今天過去你如果說報告人數多嘛對不對那現在你的人才增補的話你的空間比較大嘛但報告人數少你增補的空間就比較小嘛所以這個部分當然對公務機關我們的整個運作也產生影響可是我看上次這個我們的人事長你就把它說成是這個少子化的問題嘛對不對\n\n19\n00:07:03,141 --> 00:07:11,485\n我利用這個機會澄清一下事實上報考人數降低並不是在年金改革之後就降低我講的是兩個議題啦慢慢的就來阿因為現在來報考的\n\n20\n00:07:16,653 --> 00:07:34,772\n一個是報考率一個是錄取率事實上我們現在每一年都維持到……我之前拿到數字也給你看過了嘛對不對比照之前的話大概幾十年前的數字現在報考人數確實大幅下降了沒錯吧\n\n21\n00:07:36,174 --> 00:07:53,593\n對阿事實阿所以因此不純粹是你剛剛講的少子化因為我們少子化有沒有少子到這種程度阿少子化浪潮還沒淹到這種程度阿不是嗎所以就少子化以外的因素嘛那我接下來跟各位講就是說當然跟公務員待遇有關係阿不是嗎\n\n22\n00:07:54,634 --> 00:08:12,715\n公務員的待遇也好退休金也好在下降的過程當中當然對我覺得總是我們人事長公家機關的同仁我剛剛看也會笑欸我要講也會笑什麼我幫大家講話今天如果待遇減少你當然人願意留下來的那個動力就會下降嘛這點這點應該沒錯吧\n\n23\n00:08:15,992 --> 00:08:40,942\n這代議一定會影響每一個公務通人留下來的意願這是正相關年金改革從2018年7月上路退休公教人員資領月退金18%的優存兩年半就把它歸零然後所得地貸率10年過渡期改革首年降到本縫的兩倍的75%再連續10年每年降1.5在2029年要降到60%對不對\n\n24\n00:08:45,285 --> 00:08:59,985\n我想請教您就是說現在其實已經有委員修正提案公務員退休之前的撫恤法以及公教職員退休之前的撫恤條例我想請問一下人事長你的看法是什麼\n\n25\n00:09:02,106 --> 00:09:22,622\n這個我想尊重大院的一個提案前事實上我們在整個制度設計每5年我們內部就會去做一個檢討很好啊那就看我們立法院怎麼審議嘛對不對那我現在想請教您因物價變動跟通貨膨脹那今年軍公教的月退金調高4%\n\n26\n00:09:26,001 --> 00:09:54,258\n那如果不贊成停止遞減年金所得地貸率對於公教團體的另外訴求比照勞工保險條例的規定當消費者物價指數累計成長率達50%就要按照這個成長率來調整變成是一個法制化的做法您同意嗎這個我覺得要由主管機關就是前續部跟國防部跟教育部這些主管機關你人事總處你總能幫軍公教代言一下新生吧\n\n27\n00:09:55,542 --> 00:10:11,954\n我會把委員的意見轉達你放心這些單位在我們本委員會我也會質詢啦但我是問你人事總處人事長你的意見啦我是支持比照啦因為現在我們會把委員的意見轉達給這些機關啦最後我想針對我們這個預算凍結的一些問題我想請教一下因為我看到幾個問題比方說舉個例子\n\n28\n00:10:21,155 --> 00:10:48,534\n我看到預算凍結比如說我們第一個案子它裡面有一個緣由就是說這個人事行政總處要求各主管機關建立主動抽查所屬機關的機制列入人事業務績效考核以立政府機關落實公實新制對不對這報告第三頁可是我整個沒有看到你的抽查的情形如何跟抽查的績效\n\n29\n00:10:49,673 --> 00:11:10,056\n我查情形如何我想我們會用我們提供給委員這個凍結你的時候就是要你做這件事情結果你現在要解凍你跟我講你還要再補報告那是不是今天就不用審解凍案了啊其實我有人報告啦今年的績效考我們就已經列入了啦我跟你講你上面的報告沒寫\n\n30\n00:11:11,582 --> 00:11:39,868\n這才是問題當它已經白紙黑字就指你的抽查制度你抽查績效你也不寫進去很多啦我剛剛因為時間到我剛剛主席就站起來了當我們審凍結報告的時候我可能也要講一下很多凍結你的原因你在報告裡也不去應答那請問你那解凍結什麼啊也就是說原來凍結你的理由狀態全部存在啊那想請教我們怎麼解凍啊所以這個齁因為時間因素我不耽擱後面時間以上\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7375\t28326\t主席有請人事長請人事長委員長委員長請教一下吳亦郎凍結是不是可以全國一致性的放假那陳建元院長昨天說在兩個禮拜宣布結果請問目前這個案子研議的情況如何\n31262\t53851\t我跟委員報告因為這個案子的主責是在內政部那現在行政院我就是昨天院長也提了嘛大概兩個禮拜以內會announce今年的5月1號是我放假我想請教一下上次本席在委員會質詢人事長的時候有要求說軍公教條新能夠法制化對不對\n54651\t79894\t那人事長你的回答是說朝年底完成法制化來努力嘛對不對就有期限了嘛對不對失誠了嘛那裡面法制化有一項很重要的議題就是說長久以來軍公教團體都希望軍公教員工待遇審議委員會能夠比照勞工基本工資審議委員會納入基層員工代表那我想請教一下那個人事長你怎麼看\n81312\t100275\t我非常認同委員的建議啦。事實上這一次在法制化的過程中我納入基層的這些公教同仁代表我們也是並同言議。有納入並同言議。非常好。那為什麼我看到資料說之前人事總處對外表示反對審議委員納入基層員工代表呢?\n100855\t119310\t這可能在表達的方式有一點我們會改進那請人事我們人事長都處一下那現在我也謝謝人事長已經是表達因為我個人看法很簡單啦就現在審議委員會都是機關首長跟12職等以上的主官嘛對不對主管嘛\n120795\t139077\t按照有學者專家以外啦對,我看到就是人事長全序部然後副處長兼任副召集人委員14到16人四人專家學者其他是各部會地方政府檢任12職的以上嘛對不對\n140583\t162503\t事實上剛才委員指教的12指等以上事實上他是所謂的機關代表的概念對啊那我只是想說高層主管是人基層公務員就不是人的概念嗎?這一句話我一定要澄清我跟你講你實際的結果就沒有把基層的那個公務員新生放進去嘛這很容易造成慣老闆現象你知道吧?\n167657\t179459\t沒有關係,剛剛人事長你自己都知道這個方法不對嘛,不是嗎?所以你才剛剛主張要基層員工要放進去啊?不然如果你這個做法是對的,你為什麼剛剛又主張基層員工要放進去呢?\n181460\t200382\t我這裡必須要跟委員說明一下原來的審議委員會他是一個代表性的那事實上為了去處理這個事情我們前兩年事實上在審議委員會之前沒有關係我跟你講歷史的東西就過去啦我還是肯定你願意改啦可以吧我肯定你總沒意見了吧\n202558\t231641\t接下來我們軍公教的團體教育團體也講出軍公教的待遇調整那麼跟最低工資都是國家政策一部分應該具有相同的公開透明跟民主的性質那現在同為受僱者基本工資審議委員會有納入來勞工代表那現在也應該要把我們基層員工的薪生放進去但是我想請教你一個下一個問題就是\n233341\t246572\t之前的前人事總處的人事長施能傑他有研究一個數據分析年金改革實施之後我們公務員總退休率是呈現下降的趨勢對不對是那為什麼\n250322\t276844\t我看一下數字是2017年之前公務人員總退休率都大於2.5%2015年甚至高達3.26%但是政黨輪替2017年總退休率一直往下到2021年之前都沒有超過2個百分點平均退休率來看年改前2011年到2016年的總退休率是平均是2.84年改後總退休率降為1.82\n278846\t293155\t那麼這個部分它造成的一個現象是什麼為什麼會有這種現象我這裡我必須要跟委員提一下就是因為整個在掃紙化的過程裡面這不純粹是掃紙化因為它的議題也是蠻多元的只是說我們希望有一些有經驗的當然委員你care就是說\n304623\t324775\t公務同仁的年紀越來越老,年輕人的補助會有這個議題嗎?可是我們另外一個顧面思考的就是你有經驗的人,尤其我們現在身體情況比以前好很多嗎?我知道你講說我們現在高齡化社會工作也是高齡化社會一種生活型態嘛對不對?\n326087\t335141\t可是我跟你講,有你想得這麼夢幻嗎?不是吧?原因是什麼?因為年金改革退休金大幅縮水啊,不是嗎?\n336243\t361493\t所以公務員要延後退休累積年資增加縫點才能夠提高退休金所以根本還是在於說我們今天的所謂的年金的退休金大幅縮水那另外這個你剛剛已經講了一個就是你會造成說今天我們這個公務機關也高齡化高齡化因為第一個就是退休的狀況減少嘛對不對延後嘛沒錯吧\n362776\t375983\t有部分人會延後有部分人就整個整體數字2.84下降1.82這整體數字不純粹是個人了啦已經是現象好不好已經現象這還是講說這個我們講現在的公務機關的高齡結構的一個趨向另外剛剛你自己也主動講了請問現在的我們的公務人員報考人數數十年減幅高達56%對不對\n391312\t419437\t將近減掉大幅下減所以因此造成我們今天優秀的人才也開始你要知道今天過去你如果說報告人數多嘛 對不對那現在你的人才增補的話你的空間比較大嘛但報告人數少你增補的空間就比較小嘛所以這個部分當然對公務機關我們的整個運作也產生影響可是我看上次這個我們的人事長你就把它說成是這個少子化的問題嘛 對不對\n423141\t431485\t我利用這個機會澄清一下事實上報考人數降低並不是在年金改革之後就降低我講的是兩個議題啦慢慢的就來阿因為現在來報考的\n436653\t454772\t一個是報考率 一個是錄取率 事實上我們現在每一年都維持到……我之前拿到數字也給你看過了嘛 對不對 比照之前的話大概幾十年前的數字 現在報考人數確實大幅下降了沒錯吧\n456174\t473593\t對阿事實阿所以因此不純粹是你剛剛講的少子化因為我們少子化有沒有少子到這種程度阿少子化浪潮還沒淹到這種程度阿不是嗎所以就少子化以外的因素嘛那我接下來跟各位講就是說當然跟公務員待遇有關係阿不是嗎\n474634\t492715\t公務員的待遇也好退休金也好在下降的過程當中當然對我覺得總是我們人事長公家機關的同仁我剛剛看也會笑欸我要講也會笑什麼我幫大家講話今天如果待遇減少你當然人願意留下來的那個動力就會下降嘛這點這點應該沒錯吧\n495992\t520942\t這代議一定會影響每一個公務通人留下來的意願這是正相關年金改革從2018年7月上路退休公教人員資領月退金18%的優存兩年半就把它歸零然後所得地貸率10年過渡期改革首年降到本縫的兩倍的75%再連續10年每年降1.5在2029年要降到60% 對不對\n525285\t539985\t我想請教您就是說現在其實已經有委員修正提案公務員退休之前的撫恤法以及公教職員退休之前的撫恤條例我想請問一下人事長你的看法是什麼\n542106\t562622\t這個我想尊重大院的一個提案前事實上我們在整個制度設計每5年我們內部就會去做一個檢討很好啊那就看我們立法院怎麼審議嘛對不對那我現在想請教您因物價變動跟通貨膨脹那今年軍公教的月退金調高4%\n566001\t594258\t那如果不贊成停止遞減年金所得地貸率對於公教團體的另外訴求比照勞工保險條例的規定當消費者物價指數累計成長率達50%就要按照這個成長率來調整變成是一個法制化的做法您同意嗎這個我覺得要由主管機關就是前續部跟國防部跟教育部這些主管機關你人事總處你總能幫軍公教代言一下新生吧\n595542\t611954\t我會把委員的意見轉達你放心這些單位在我們本委員會我也會質詢啦但我是問你人事總處人事長你的意見啦我是支持比照啦因為現在我們會把委員的意見轉達給這些機關啦最後我想針對我們這個預算凍結的一些問題我想請教一下因為我看到幾個問題比方說舉個例子\n621155\t648534\t我看到預算凍結比如說我們第一個案子它裡面有一個緣由就是說這個人事行政總處要求各主管機關建立主動抽查所屬機關的機制列入人事業務績效考核以立政府機關落實公實新制對不對這報告第三頁可是我整個沒有看到你的抽查的情形如何跟抽查的績效\n649673\t670056\t我查情形如何我想我們會用我們提供給委員這個凍結你的時候就是要你做這件事情結果你現在要解凍你跟我講你還要再補報告那是不是今天就不用審解凍案了啊其實我有人報告啦今年的績效考我們就已經列入了啦我跟你講你上面的報告沒寫\n671582\t699868\t這才是問題當它已經白紙黑字就指你的抽查制度你抽查績效你也不寫進去很多啦我剛剛因為時間到我剛剛主席就站起來了當我們審凍結報告的時候我可能也要講一下很多凍結你的原因你在報告裡也不去應答那請問你那解凍結什麼啊也就是說原來凍結你的理由狀態全部存在啊那想請教我們怎麼解凍啊所以這個齁因為時間因素我不耽擱後面時間以上\n","txt":"主席有請人事長請人事長委員長委員長請教一下吳亦郎凍結是不是可以全國一致性的放假那陳建元院長昨天說在兩個禮拜宣布結果請問目前這個案子研議的情況如何\n我跟委員報告因為這個案子的主責是在內政部那現在行政院我就是昨天院長也提了嘛大概兩個禮拜以內會announce今年的5月1號是我放假我想請教一下上次本席在委員會質詢人事長的時候有要求說軍公教條新能夠法制化對不對\n那人事長你的回答是說朝年底完成法制化來努力嘛對不對就有期限了嘛對不對失誠了嘛那裡面法制化有一項很重要的議題就是說長久以來軍公教團體都希望軍公教員工待遇審議委員會能夠比照勞工基本工資審議委員會納入基層員工代表那我想請教一下那個人事長你怎麼看\n我非常認同委員的建議啦。事實上這一次在法制化的過程中我納入基層的這些公教同仁代表我們也是並同言議。有納入並同言議。非常好。那為什麼我看到資料說之前人事總處對外表示反對審議委員納入基層員工代表呢?\n這可能在表達的方式有一點我們會改進那請人事我們人事長都處一下那現在我也謝謝人事長已經是表達因為我個人看法很簡單啦就現在審議委員會都是機關首長跟12職等以上的主官嘛對不對主管嘛\n按照有學者專家以外啦對,我看到就是人事長全序部然後副處長兼任副召集人委員14到16人四人專家學者其他是各部會地方政府檢任12職的以上嘛對不對\n事實上剛才委員指教的12指等以上事實上他是所謂的機關代表的概念對啊那我只是想說高層主管是人基層公務員就不是人的概念嗎?這一句話我一定要澄清我跟你講你實際的結果就沒有把基層的那個公務員新生放進去嘛這很容易造成慣老闆現象你知道吧?\n沒有關係,剛剛人事長你自己都知道這個方法不對嘛,不是嗎?所以你才剛剛主張要基層員工要放進去啊?不然如果你這個做法是對的,你為什麼剛剛又主張基層員工要放進去呢?\n我這裡必須要跟委員說明一下原來的審議委員會他是一個代表性的那事實上為了去處理這個事情我們前兩年事實上在審議委員會之前沒有關係我跟你講歷史的東西就過去啦我還是肯定你願意改啦可以吧我肯定你總沒意見了吧\n接下來我們軍公教的團體教育團體也講出軍公教的待遇調整那麼跟最低工資都是國家政策一部分應該具有相同的公開透明跟民主的性質那現在同為受僱者基本工資審議委員會有納入來勞工代表那現在也應該要把我們基層員工的薪生放進去但是我想請教你一個下一個問題就是\n之前的前人事總處的人事長施能傑他有研究一個數據分析年金改革實施之後我們公務員總退休率是呈現下降的趨勢對不對是那為什麼\n我看一下數字是2017年之前公務人員總退休率都大於2.5%2015年甚至高達3.26%但是政黨輪替2017年總退休率一直往下到2021年之前都沒有超過2個百分點平均退休率來看年改前2011年到2016年的總退休率是平均是2.84年改後總退休率降為1.82\n那麼這個部分它造成的一個現象是什麼為什麼會有這種現象我這裡我必須要跟委員提一下就是因為整個在掃紙化的過程裡面這不純粹是掃紙化因為它的議題也是蠻多元的只是說我們希望有一些有經驗的當然委員你care就是說\n公務同仁的年紀越來越老,年輕人的補助會有這個議題嗎?可是我們另外一個顧面思考的就是你有經驗的人,尤其我們現在身體情況比以前好很多嗎?我知道你講說我們現在高齡化社會工作也是高齡化社會一種生活型態嘛對不對?\n可是我跟你講,有你想得這麼夢幻嗎?不是吧?原因是什麼?因為年金改革退休金大幅縮水啊,不是嗎?\n所以公務員要延後退休累積年資增加縫點才能夠提高退休金所以根本還是在於說我們今天的所謂的年金的退休金大幅縮水那另外這個你剛剛已經講了一個就是你會造成說今天我們這個公務機關也高齡化高齡化因為第一個就是退休的狀況減少嘛對不對延後嘛沒錯吧\n有部分人會延後有部分人就整個整體數字2.84下降1.82這整體數字不純粹是個人了啦已經是現象好不好已經現象這還是講說這個我們講現在的公務機關的高齡結構的一個趨向另外剛剛你自己也主動講了請問現在的我們的公務人員報考人數數十年減幅高達56%對不對\n將近減掉大幅下減所以因此造成我們今天優秀的人才也開始你要知道今天過去你如果說報告人數多嘛 對不對那現在你的人才增補的話你的空間比較大嘛但報告人數少你增補的空間就比較小嘛所以這個部分當然對公務機關我們的整個運作也產生影響可是我看上次這個我們的人事長你就把它說成是這個少子化的問題嘛 對不對\n我利用這個機會澄清一下事實上報考人數降低並不是在年金改革之後就降低我講的是兩個議題啦慢慢的就來阿因為現在來報考的\n一個是報考率 一個是錄取率 事實上我們現在每一年都維持到……我之前拿到數字也給你看過了嘛 對不對 比照之前的話大概幾十年前的數字 現在報考人數確實大幅下降了沒錯吧\n對阿事實阿所以因此不純粹是你剛剛講的少子化因為我們少子化有沒有少子到這種程度阿少子化浪潮還沒淹到這種程度阿不是嗎所以就少子化以外的因素嘛那我接下來跟各位講就是說當然跟公務員待遇有關係阿不是嗎\n公務員的待遇也好退休金也好在下降的過程當中當然對我覺得總是我們人事長公家機關的同仁我剛剛看也會笑欸我要講也會笑什麼我幫大家講話今天如果待遇減少你當然人願意留下來的那個動力就會下降嘛這點這點應該沒錯吧\n這代議一定會影響每一個公務通人留下來的意願這是正相關年金改革從2018年7月上路退休公教人員資領月退金18%的優存兩年半就把它歸零然後所得地貸率10年過渡期改革首年降到本縫的兩倍的75%再連續10年每年降1.5在2029年要降到60% 對不對\n我想請教您就是說現在其實已經有委員修正提案公務員退休之前的撫恤法以及公教職員退休之前的撫恤條例我想請問一下人事長你的看法是什麼\n這個我想尊重大院的一個提案前事實上我們在整個制度設計每5年我們內部就會去做一個檢討很好啊那就看我們立法院怎麼審議嘛對不對那我現在想請教您因物價變動跟通貨膨脹那今年軍公教的月退金調高4%\n那如果不贊成停止遞減年金所得地貸率對於公教團體的另外訴求比照勞工保險條例的規定當消費者物價指數累計成長率達50%就要按照這個成長率來調整變成是一個法制化的做法您同意嗎這個我覺得要由主管機關就是前續部跟國防部跟教育部這些主管機關你人事總處你總能幫軍公教代言一下新生吧\n我會把委員的意見轉達你放心這些單位在我們本委員會我也會質詢啦但我是問你人事總處人事長你的意見啦我是支持比照啦因為現在我們會把委員的意見轉達給這些機關啦最後我想針對我們這個預算凍結的一些問題我想請教一下因為我看到幾個問題比方說舉個例子\n我看到預算凍結比如說我們第一個案子它裡面有一個緣由就是說這個人事行政總處要求各主管機關建立主動抽查所屬機關的機制列入人事業務績效考核以立政府機關落實公實新制對不對這報告第三頁可是我整個沒有看到你的抽查的情形如何跟抽查的績效\n我查情形如何我想我們會用我們提供給委員這個凍結你的時候就是要你做這件事情結果你現在要解凍你跟我講你還要再補報告那是不是今天就不用審解凍案了啊其實我有人報告啦今年的績效考我們就已經列入了啦我跟你講你上面的報告沒寫\n這才是問題當它已經白紙黑字就指你的抽查制度你抽查績效你也不寫進去很多啦我剛剛因為時間到我剛剛主席就站起來了當我們審凍結報告的時候我可能也要講一下很多凍結你的原因你在報告裡也不去應答那請問你那解凍結什麼啊也就是說原來凍結你的理由狀態全部存在啊那想請教我們怎麼解凍啊所以這個齁因為時間因素我不耽擱後面時間以上\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.375 --> 00:28.326\n主席有請人事長請人事長委員長委員長請教一下吳亦郎凍結是不是可以全國一致性的放假那陳建元院長昨天說在兩個禮拜宣布結果請問目前這個案子研議的情況如何\n\n00:31.262 --> 00:53.851\n我跟委員報告因為這個案子的主責是在內政部那現在行政院我就是昨天院長也提了嘛大概兩個禮拜以內會announce今年的5月1號是我放假我想請教一下上次本席在委員會質詢人事長的時候有要求說軍公教條新能夠法制化對不對\n\n00:54.651 --> 01:19.894\n那人事長你的回答是說朝年底完成法制化來努力嘛對不對就有期限了嘛對不對失誠了嘛那裡面法制化有一項很重要的議題就是說長久以來軍公教團體都希望軍公教員工待遇審議委員會能夠比照勞工基本工資審議委員會納入基層員工代表那我想請教一下那個人事長你怎麼看\n\n01:21.312 --> 01:40.275\n我非常認同委員的建議啦。事實上這一次在法制化的過程中我納入基層的這些公教同仁代表我們也是並同言議。有納入並同言議。非常好。那為什麼我看到資料說之前人事總處對外表示反對審議委員納入基層員工代表呢?\n\n01:40.855 --> 01:59.310\n這可能在表達的方式有一點我們會改進那請人事我們人事長都處一下那現在我也謝謝人事長已經是表達因為我個人看法很簡單啦就現在審議委員會都是機關首長跟12職等以上的主官嘛對不對主管嘛\n\n02:00.795 --> 02:19.077\n按照有學者專家以外啦對,我看到就是人事長全序部然後副處長兼任副召集人委員14到16人四人專家學者其他是各部會地方政府檢任12職的以上嘛對不對\n\n02:20.583 --> 02:42.503\n事實上剛才委員指教的12指等以上事實上他是所謂的機關代表的概念對啊那我只是想說高層主管是人基層公務員就不是人的概念嗎?這一句話我一定要澄清我跟你講你實際的結果就沒有把基層的那個公務員新生放進去嘛這很容易造成慣老闆現象你知道吧?\n\n02:47.657 --> 02:59.459\n沒有關係,剛剛人事長你自己都知道這個方法不對嘛,不是嗎?所以你才剛剛主張要基層員工要放進去啊?不然如果你這個做法是對的,你為什麼剛剛又主張基層員工要放進去呢?\n\n03:01.460 --> 03:20.382\n我這裡必須要跟委員說明一下原來的審議委員會他是一個代表性的那事實上為了去處理這個事情我們前兩年事實上在審議委員會之前沒有關係我跟你講歷史的東西就過去啦我還是肯定你願意改啦可以吧我肯定你總沒意見了吧\n\n03:22.558 --> 03:51.641\n接下來我們軍公教的團體教育團體也講出軍公教的待遇調整那麼跟最低工資都是國家政策一部分應該具有相同的公開透明跟民主的性質那現在同為受僱者基本工資審議委員會有納入來勞工代表那現在也應該要把我們基層員工的薪生放進去但是我想請教你一個下一個問題就是\n\n03:53.341 --> 04:06.572\n之前的前人事總處的人事長施能傑他有研究一個數據分析年金改革實施之後我們公務員總退休率是呈現下降的趨勢對不對是那為什麼\n\n04:10.322 --> 04:36.844\n我看一下數字是2017年之前公務人員總退休率都大於2.5%2015年甚至高達3.26%但是政黨輪替2017年總退休率一直往下到2021年之前都沒有超過2個百分點平均退休率來看年改前2011年到2016年的總退休率是平均是2.84年改後總退休率降為1.82\n\n04:38.846 --> 04:53.155\n那麼這個部分它造成的一個現象是什麼為什麼會有這種現象我這裡我必須要跟委員提一下就是因為整個在掃紙化的過程裡面這不純粹是掃紙化因為它的議題也是蠻多元的只是說我們希望有一些有經驗的當然委員你care就是說\n\n05:04.623 --> 05:24.775\n公務同仁的年紀越來越老,年輕人的補助會有這個議題嗎?可是我們另外一個顧面思考的就是你有經驗的人,尤其我們現在身體情況比以前好很多嗎?我知道你講說我們現在高齡化社會工作也是高齡化社會一種生活型態嘛對不對?\n\n05:26.087 --> 05:35.141\n可是我跟你講,有你想得這麼夢幻嗎?不是吧?原因是什麼?因為年金改革退休金大幅縮水啊,不是嗎?\n\n05:36.243 --> 06:01.493\n所以公務員要延後退休累積年資增加縫點才能夠提高退休金所以根本還是在於說我們今天的所謂的年金的退休金大幅縮水那另外這個你剛剛已經講了一個就是你會造成說今天我們這個公務機關也高齡化高齡化因為第一個就是退休的狀況減少嘛對不對延後嘛沒錯吧\n\n06:02.776 --> 06:15.983\n有部分人會延後有部分人就整個整體數字2.84下降1.82這整體數字不純粹是個人了啦已經是現象好不好已經現象這還是講說這個我們講現在的公務機關的高齡結構的一個趨向另外剛剛你自己也主動講了請問現在的我們的公務人員報考人數數十年減幅高達56%對不對\n\n06:31.312 --> 06:59.437\n將近減掉大幅下減所以因此造成我們今天優秀的人才也開始你要知道今天過去你如果說報告人數多嘛對不對那現在你的人才增補的話你的空間比較大嘛但報告人數少你增補的空間就比較小嘛所以這個部分當然對公務機關我們的整個運作也產生影響可是我看上次這個我們的人事長你就把它說成是這個少子化的問題嘛對不對\n\n07:03.141 --> 07:11.485\n我利用這個機會澄清一下事實上報考人數降低並不是在年金改革之後就降低我講的是兩個議題啦慢慢的就來阿因為現在來報考的\n\n07:16.653 --> 07:34.772\n一個是報考率一個是錄取率事實上我們現在每一年都維持到……我之前拿到數字也給你看過了嘛對不對比照之前的話大概幾十年前的數字現在報考人數確實大幅下降了沒錯吧\n\n07:36.174 --> 07:53.593\n對阿事實阿所以因此不純粹是你剛剛講的少子化因為我們少子化有沒有少子到這種程度阿少子化浪潮還沒淹到這種程度阿不是嗎所以就少子化以外的因素嘛那我接下來跟各位講就是說當然跟公務員待遇有關係阿不是嗎\n\n07:54.634 --> 08:12.715\n公務員的待遇也好退休金也好在下降的過程當中當然對我覺得總是我們人事長公家機關的同仁我剛剛看也會笑欸我要講也會笑什麼我幫大家講話今天如果待遇減少你當然人願意留下來的那個動力就會下降嘛這點這點應該沒錯吧\n\n08:15.992 --> 08:40.942\n這代議一定會影響每一個公務通人留下來的意願這是正相關年金改革從2018年7月上路退休公教人員資領月退金18%的優存兩年半就把它歸零然後所得地貸率10年過渡期改革首年降到本縫的兩倍的75%再連續10年每年降1.5在2029年要降到60%對不對\n\n08:45.285 --> 08:59.985\n我想請教您就是說現在其實已經有委員修正提案公務員退休之前的撫恤法以及公教職員退休之前的撫恤條例我想請問一下人事長你的看法是什麼\n\n09:02.106 --> 09:22.622\n這個我想尊重大院的一個提案前事實上我們在整個制度設計每5年我們內部就會去做一個檢討很好啊那就看我們立法院怎麼審議嘛對不對那我現在想請教您因物價變動跟通貨膨脹那今年軍公教的月退金調高4%\n\n09:26.001 --> 09:54.258\n那如果不贊成停止遞減年金所得地貸率對於公教團體的另外訴求比照勞工保險條例的規定當消費者物價指數累計成長率達50%就要按照這個成長率來調整變成是一個法制化的做法您同意嗎這個我覺得要由主管機關就是前續部跟國防部跟教育部這些主管機關你人事總處你總能幫軍公教代言一下新生吧\n\n09:55.542 --> 10:11.954\n我會把委員的意見轉達你放心這些單位在我們本委員會我也會質詢啦但我是問你人事總處人事長你的意見啦我是支持比照啦因為現在我們會把委員的意見轉達給這些機關啦最後我想針對我們這個預算凍結的一些問題我想請教一下因為我看到幾個問題比方說舉個例子\n\n10:21.155 --> 10:48.534\n我看到預算凍結比如說我們第一個案子它裡面有一個緣由就是說這個人事行政總處要求各主管機關建立主動抽查所屬機關的機制列入人事業務績效考核以立政府機關落實公實新制對不對這報告第三頁可是我整個沒有看到你的抽查的情形如何跟抽查的績效\n\n10:49.673 --> 11:10.056\n我查情形如何我想我們會用我們提供給委員這個凍結你的時候就是要你做這件事情結果你現在要解凍你跟我講你還要再補報告那是不是今天就不用審解凍案了啊其實我有人報告啦今年的績效考我們就已經列入了啦我跟你講你上面的報告沒寫\n\n11:11.582 --> 11:39.868\n這才是問題當它已經白紙黑字就指你的抽查制度你抽查績效你也不寫進去很多啦我剛剛因為時間到我剛剛主席就站起來了當我們審凍結報告的時候我可能也要講一下很多凍結你的原因你在報告裡也不去應答那請問你那解凍結什麼啊也就是說原來凍結你的理由狀態全部存在啊那想請教我們怎麼解凍啊所以這個齁因為時間因素我不耽擱後面時間以上\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.375,"end":28.326,"text":"主席有請人事長請人事長委員長委員長請教一下吳亦郎凍結是不是可以全國一致性的放假那陳建元院長昨天說在兩個禮拜宣布結果請問目前這個案子研議的情況如何"},{"start":31.262,"end":53.851,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這個案子的主責是在內政部那現在行政院我就是昨天院長也提了嘛大概兩個禮拜以內會announce今年的5月1號是我放假我想請教一下上次本席在委員會質詢人事長的時候有要求說軍公教條新能夠法制化對不對"},{"start":54.651,"end":79.894,"text":"那人事長你的回答是說朝年底完成法制化來努力嘛對不對就有期限了嘛對不對失誠了嘛那裡面法制化有一項很重要的議題就是說長久以來軍公教團體都希望軍公教員工待遇審議委員會能夠比照勞工基本工資審議委員會納入基層員工代表那我想請教一下那個人事長你怎麼看"},{"start":81.312,"end":100.275,"text":"我非常認同委員的建議啦。事實上這一次在法制化的過程中我納入基層的這些公教同仁代表我們也是並同言議。有納入並同言議。非常好。那為什麼我看到資料說之前人事總處對外表示反對審議委員納入基層員工代表呢?"},{"start":100.855,"end":119.31,"text":"這可能在表達的方式有一點我們會改進那請人事我們人事長都處一下那現在我也謝謝人事長已經是表達因為我個人看法很簡單啦就現在審議委員會都是機關首長跟12職等以上的主官嘛對不對主管嘛"},{"start":120.795,"end":139.077,"text":"按照有學者專家以外啦對,我看到就是人事長全序部然後副處長兼任副召集人委員14到16人四人專家學者其他是各部會地方政府檢任12職的以上嘛對不對"},{"start":140.583,"end":162.503,"text":"事實上剛才委員指教的12指等以上事實上他是所謂的機關代表的概念對啊那我只是想說高層主管是人基層公務員就不是人的概念嗎?這一句話我一定要澄清我跟你講你實際的結果就沒有把基層的那個公務員新生放進去嘛這很容易造成慣老闆現象你知道吧?"},{"start":167.657,"end":179.459,"text":"沒有關係,剛剛人事長你自己都知道這個方法不對嘛,不是嗎?所以你才剛剛主張要基層員工要放進去啊?不然如果你這個做法是對的,你為什麼剛剛又主張基層員工要放進去呢?"},{"start":181.46,"end":200.382,"text":"我這裡必須要跟委員說明一下原來的審議委員會他是一個代表性的那事實上為了去處理這個事情我們前兩年事實上在審議委員會之前沒有關係我跟你講歷史的東西就過去啦我還是肯定你願意改啦可以吧我肯定你總沒意見了吧"},{"start":202.558,"end":231.641,"text":"接下來我們軍公教的團體教育團體也講出軍公教的待遇調整那麼跟最低工資都是國家政策一部分應該具有相同的公開透明跟民主的性質那現在同為受僱者基本工資審議委員會有納入來勞工代表那現在也應該要把我們基層員工的薪生放進去但是我想請教你一個下一個問題就是"},{"start":233.341,"end":246.572,"text":"之前的前人事總處的人事長施能傑他有研究一個數據分析年金改革實施之後我們公務員總退休率是呈現下降的趨勢對不對是那為什麼"},{"start":250.322,"end":276.844,"text":"我看一下數字是2017年之前公務人員總退休率都大於2.5%2015年甚至高達3.26%但是政黨輪替2017年總退休率一直往下到2021年之前都沒有超過2個百分點平均退休率來看年改前2011年到2016年的總退休率是平均是2.84年改後總退休率降為1.82"},{"start":278.846,"end":293.155,"text":"那麼這個部分它造成的一個現象是什麼為什麼會有這種現象我這裡我必須要跟委員提一下就是因為整個在掃紙化的過程裡面這不純粹是掃紙化因為它的議題也是蠻多元的只是說我們希望有一些有經驗的當然委員你care就是說"},{"start":304.623,"end":324.775,"text":"公務同仁的年紀越來越老,年輕人的補助會有這個議題嗎?可是我們另外一個顧面思考的就是你有經驗的人,尤其我們現在身體情況比以前好很多嗎?我知道你講說我們現在高齡化社會工作也是高齡化社會一種生活型態嘛對不對?"},{"start":326.087,"end":335.141,"text":"可是我跟你講,有你想得這麼夢幻嗎?不是吧?原因是什麼?因為年金改革退休金大幅縮水啊,不是嗎?"},{"start":336.243,"end":361.493,"text":"所以公務員要延後退休累積年資增加縫點才能夠提高退休金所以根本還是在於說我們今天的所謂的年金的退休金大幅縮水那另外這個你剛剛已經講了一個就是你會造成說今天我們這個公務機關也高齡化高齡化因為第一個就是退休的狀況減少嘛對不對延後嘛沒錯吧"},{"start":362.776,"end":375.983,"text":"有部分人會延後有部分人就整個整體數字2.84下降1.82這整體數字不純粹是個人了啦已經是現象好不好已經現象這還是講說這個我們講現在的公務機關的高齡結構的一個趨向另外剛剛你自己也主動講了請問現在的我們的公務人員報考人數數十年減幅高達56%對不對"},{"start":391.312,"end":419.437,"text":"將近減掉大幅下減所以因此造成我們今天優秀的人才也開始你要知道今天過去你如果說報告人數多嘛 對不對那現在你的人才增補的話你的空間比較大嘛但報告人數少你增補的空間就比較小嘛所以這個部分當然對公務機關我們的整個運作也產生影響可是我看上次這個我們的人事長你就把它說成是這個少子化的問題嘛 對不對"},{"start":423.141,"end":431.485,"text":"我利用這個機會澄清一下事實上報考人數降低並不是在年金改革之後就降低我講的是兩個議題啦慢慢的就來阿因為現在來報考的"},{"start":436.653,"end":454.772,"text":"一個是報考率 一個是錄取率 事實上我們現在每一年都維持到……我之前拿到數字也給你看過了嘛 對不對 比照之前的話大概幾十年前的數字 現在報考人數確實大幅下降了沒錯吧"},{"start":456.174,"end":473.593,"text":"對阿事實阿所以因此不純粹是你剛剛講的少子化因為我們少子化有沒有少子到這種程度阿少子化浪潮還沒淹到這種程度阿不是嗎所以就少子化以外的因素嘛那我接下來跟各位講就是說當然跟公務員待遇有關係阿不是嗎"},{"start":474.634,"end":492.715,"text":"公務員的待遇也好退休金也好在下降的過程當中當然對我覺得總是我們人事長公家機關的同仁我剛剛看也會笑欸我要講也會笑什麼我幫大家講話今天如果待遇減少你當然人願意留下來的那個動力就會下降嘛這點這點應該沒錯吧"},{"start":495.992,"end":520.942,"text":"這代議一定會影響每一個公務通人留下來的意願這是正相關年金改革從2018年7月上路退休公教人員資領月退金18%的優存兩年半就把它歸零然後所得地貸率10年過渡期改革首年降到本縫的兩倍的75%再連續10年每年降1.5在2029年要降到60% 對不對"},{"start":525.285,"end":539.985,"text":"我想請教您就是說現在其實已經有委員修正提案公務員退休之前的撫恤法以及公教職員退休之前的撫恤條例我想請問一下人事長你的看法是什麼"},{"start":542.106,"end":562.622,"text":"這個我想尊重大院的一個提案前事實上我們在整個制度設計每5年我們內部就會去做一個檢討很好啊那就看我們立法院怎麼審議嘛對不對那我現在想請教您因物價變動跟通貨膨脹那今年軍公教的月退金調高4%"},{"start":566.001,"end":594.258,"text":"那如果不贊成停止遞減年金所得地貸率對於公教團體的另外訴求比照勞工保險條例的規定當消費者物價指數累計成長率達50%就要按照這個成長率來調整變成是一個法制化的做法您同意嗎這個我覺得要由主管機關就是前續部跟國防部跟教育部這些主管機關你人事總處你總能幫軍公教代言一下新生吧"},{"start":595.542,"end":611.954,"text":"我會把委員的意見轉達你放心這些單位在我們本委員會我也會質詢啦但我是問你人事總處人事長你的意見啦我是支持比照啦因為現在我們會把委員的意見轉達給這些機關啦最後我想針對我們這個預算凍結的一些問題我想請教一下因為我看到幾個問題比方說舉個例子"},{"start":621.155,"end":648.534,"text":"我看到預算凍結比如說我們第一個案子它裡面有一個緣由就是說這個人事行政總處要求各主管機關建立主動抽查所屬機關的機制列入人事業務績效考核以立政府機關落實公實新制對不對這報告第三頁可是我整個沒有看到你的抽查的情形如何跟抽查的績效"},{"start":649.673,"end":670.056,"text":"我查情形如何我想我們會用我們提供給委員這個凍結你的時候就是要你做這件事情結果你現在要解凍你跟我講你還要再補報告那是不是今天就不用審解凍案了啊其實我有人報告啦今年的績效考我們就已經列入了啦我跟你講你上面的報告沒寫"},{"start":671.582,"end":699.868,"text":"這才是問題當它已經白紙黑字就指你的抽查制度你抽查績效你也不寫進去很多啦我剛剛因為時間到我剛剛主席就站起來了當我們審凍結報告的時候我可能也要講一下很多凍結你的原因你在報告裡也不去應答那請問你那解凍結什麼啊也就是說原來凍結你的理由狀態全部存在啊那想請教我們怎麼解凍啊所以這個齁因為時間因素我不耽擱後面時間以上"}]}}}}