{"id":150456,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150456","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5f9f1650f1ef3ead2a3d9204d572e03aff8ba9b0039caa7a676b3930739f4ced85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:54:33 - 10:05:24","影片長度":"00:10:51","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案(含報告事項45案及討論事項4案)。【如經復議則不予處理或審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-9"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":651,"end_time":"2024-03-27T10:05:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T09:54:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":220,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時54分）還是有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["陳委員昭姿：薛部長辛苦。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：您好。部長，我想先請教您幾個問題，您知不知道歐盟今年開始要申報碳關稅，2026年要正式課稅？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上不只今年，它從去年10月份就開始了。"],["陳委員昭姿：就是說您瞭解。"],["薛部長富盛：是，瞭解。"],["陳委員昭姿：我連續幾個問題，也許部長就告訴我是不是瞭解。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：那部長知道美國、中國也各自在建構他們自己的碳關稅標準，美國甚至在2030年的課徵標準是比歐盟還高，部長也瞭解這個狀況嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我瞭解，事實上去年美國還提出一個CCA法案，不過跟陳委員報告，CCA法案到目前為止，完全沒有進展，根本沒有聲音，所以我想這種提議概念大家都有。"],["陳委員昭姿：請部長繼續掌握這些資訊。部長，您知道2026年歐盟碳關稅每噸大概折算多少臺幣嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，歐盟碳關稅的部分每噸是100歐元，但是這個東西事實上也……"],["陳委員昭姿：我掌握的是八、九十元，大概也是3,000元臺幣。"],["薛部長富盛：是，就是大概100……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們來想想看，如果臺灣廠商出口到歐盟的時候，假設在臺灣這邊收碳費，碳價可以抵換歐盟的碳關稅，如果兩者有差額，歐盟甚至可以徵收差額，部長知道這件事嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我跟陳委員報告，它事實上經常把我們收的碳費跟CBAM的部分有一點混淆在一起，我們現在五百五十幾家被徵收碳費的對象，不必然它們會有產品輸到歐盟去，那這一塊事實上螺絲、螺帽、水泥等等這些它們要輸歐盟會受到CBAM影響的，這部分反而是蠻多中小企業，它們……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，其實我強調的是它們是一個全球的概念……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員昭姿：就是我們這邊徵收了，它那邊是可以扣抵的……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個觀念我們就是要有。那部長認為這個差額與其讓歐盟賺走，假設發生了，還是說我們臺灣自己來足額徵收，然後對我們國家整體是好的，您同意嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：完全認同。"],["陳委員昭姿：您同意？"],["薛部長富盛：完全認同陳委員的看法。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長您之前說臺灣的碳費起徵價是320元嘛！然後再逐年調升，我知道環團他們希望底價是500元開始，假設2030年我們的目標值是3,000元，其實這個差距很大，如果我們這個時候調幅很大，對廠商其實衝擊很大，是不是就是要逐年或是把這個底價稍微做一個調整？"],["薛部長富盛：是，謝謝陳委員的提醒，昨天的碳費費率審核委員會他們有提到這一點，他們希望以2030為目標……"],["陳委員昭姿：就是因為沒有結論，我才請教部長。"],["薛部長富盛：逐步而且也公告出來，讓廠商企業可以預作準備，我想這個是很好的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長。部長，我想再瞭解一下，臺灣近年來面臨很多垃圾山的問題，因為垃圾堆積發生火災頻傳，我想至少在新北、桃園、嘉義、臺東、苗栗、新竹、屏東和南投等都發生過垃圾山悶燒造成嚴重的空氣污染，我想這個不但是對於我們的生態有影響，對居民生活是一個重大困擾，甚至也可能造成嚴重的地下水污染，我想部長應該非常清楚。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：在2023年環境部的官員指出，垃圾山的主因是因為事業廢棄物排擠了家戶垃圾的處理量，也就是各地方政府的焚化爐用來處理代燒事業廢棄物，就是有賺錢的事業廢棄物，導致家戶垃圾的焚化量、處理量持續減少，部長您同意這個說法嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：這個說法不全然正確，因為發生火災，當然有一些是包括非法的、暫時的棄置。我跟陳委員報告，我們現在有24座焚化爐在運作，它的處理量能是一年650萬噸，我們的家戶垃圾扣除可以回收的大概是490萬噸，事實上反而是有餘量，就是因為有餘量，所以才會去協助處理事業廢棄物，當然，對於民間BOT的焚化爐而言，處理事業廢棄物的單價比較高。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，您說有餘量，但是請問您認為垃圾山的主因是什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：我們未來還有幾座焚化爐陸陸續續經過整改之後，它的處理量能跟效率都會提升，所以環境部在這一塊倒是可以跟大家報告……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們等一下再來看一些數字。"],["薛部長富盛：2027年以前大概一般垃圾處理量能都夠。"],["陳委員昭姿：我現在先談一下新豐掩埋場，就像其他的垃圾堆置場一樣，因為高溫或沼氣在5年內引發的火災有67次，所以當地里長就表示，新豐掩埋場長期堆置垃圾，那個惡臭、蚊蟲孳生是居民非常重大的困擾，更不要說火災造成的這些空氣污染影響人民的健康，而且垃圾堆在那個地方，對他們來說就好像夢魘或是不定時炸彈，剛剛好像部長也提到垃圾掩埋場大概將近四百處吧？393處，我掌握的數字是……"],["薛部長富盛：給陳委員報告，垃圾的處理方式，最終端的處理，掩埋場是一種，另外還有就是焚化爐，所以是一個多元的處理方式。"],["陳委員昭姿：多元，對，等一下我也會請教。但是有關預算中心110年度單位預算評估報告說，臺灣掩埋場的空間是趨於飽和，已經遠不及應付產生的量，即便是封閉的掩埋場其實還是有傷害，像土壤流失、滲水外溢、惡臭味，影響未來的土地利用，我知道多元化剛剛部長已經提了，就是第二期已經在進行了。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：針對掩埋場的部分，部長覺得該怎麼樣來解決？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上掩埋場我們覺得以臺灣現在的情況不會再增加了，但是會去做整改，整改之後事實上它的空間還會再出來。"],["陳委員昭姿：不過，整改的問題等一下我也再跟部長討論一下。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：據本席瞭解，國家每年大概至少花15億以上來處理末端垃圾，當然處理廢棄物方式有焚化、回收、掩埋等等。但是我們看到左邊這個圖表，2022年之前一般廢棄物的焚化處理量沒有突破，長年都維持在400萬公噸（黑色的部分），即便2022年達到最高處理量，但都還是沒有辦法、不足以應付垃圾的生成。部長，環境部每年花了一、二十億的錢，到底是用在哪裡了、跑去哪裡了？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，臺灣現在包括花蓮跟新竹縣的掩埋場也是剛剛才落成，它可以增加大概每年30萬噸的處理量能，所以這一塊事實上未來投入整個垃圾的處理之後，這個情況應該會改善。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以這個費用您是花在焚化爐的整新改建，還是說……"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們有補助，還有包括有些縣市……"],["陳委員昭姿：其他的方式嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：它們沒有焚化爐，譬如說像南投，我們會補助它。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以目前還是在增設焚化爐的作法。"],["薛部長富盛：對，一個過渡的階段，事實上長遠來講……"],["陳委員昭姿：我想工欲善其事，必先利其器，就是說處理事業廢棄物量能不足之外，專用的處理場也許也是可以考慮的，臺灣的焚化爐系統有很大的問題，第一個是使用年限過高，部長，你知道焚化爐的平均使用年限大概是……就我瞭解應該是20年就要做整改嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是到目前為止，您剛剛說24座，但沒有關係，我這邊查到的焚化爐是25座，半數已經用了超過20年的年限，像最古老的內湖焚化爐就用了30年之久，一直到2021年才進入整備期，所以這當然會壓縮末端垃圾的處理。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是第一個。第二個是焚化爐設計的熱值。我們知道每座焚化爐可以處理垃圾的量能多寡受限於這個垃圾焚化爐產生的熱值，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：早期我們的設計每公斤是1,350到1,600大卡，但是隨著垃圾成分的改變，尤其近年來塑膠成分增加，塑膠成分的熱值會達到每公斤4,000到5,000卡，所以目前焚化爐的設定熱值是二倍高耶！垃圾熱值升高表示焚化爐、焚化廠的處理量能也跟著減少啊！你現在還在蓋焚化爐，要用焚化爐來解決嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上我們未來大概到29座焚化爐之後就沒有再增加了，一般家戶的部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：那我最後談到彰化晶鼎焚化爐，我上次好像也跟部長講過，因為總統大選前林佳龍秘書長跟鄭文燦副院長都承諾不蓋，但是選舉後不但沒有不蓋，而且3月14號這個廠商火速召開說明會，黑衣人坐滿會場，居民進不去。"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，這個我們還沒有接到晶鼎回復我們的書函，我們會嚴格來審視。但是我這邊要跟陳委員報告，事實上這裡面的關鍵反而是彰化縣政府，彰化縣政府只要不核發建照給它，它什麼都沒有辦法做，因為它沒有符合民意的需求嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，瞭解，我後續會繼續追蹤。不過我還是要說，垃圾一直增量，我們從源頭改進那個資源分配，這樣編列的預算是失衡的，我再提醒一下。就跟疾病一樣，我們從源頭預防是勝於治療，不要等病很嚴重以後，我們才去花很多錢來治療。"],["薛部長富盛：認同。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳菁徽","劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","洪申翰","李彥秀","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","黃國昌","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00002","1132102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍\n結案49案（含報告事項45案及討論事項4案）（前接第一冊）","agenda_id":"1132102_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"150456","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150456","tool":"pyannote","id":"150456-pyannote"},"job_id":"83ZD2r0NsQ6hfWYz","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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\"整改之後事實上它的空間還會再出來不過整改的問題等一下我也再跟那個部長討論一下就據本席瞭解國家每年大概至少花15億以上來處理末端垃圾那當然處理廢棄物方式有焚化、回收、掩埋等等等等但是我們看到左邊這個圖表\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 413.183, \"end\": 413.383, \"score\": 0.557}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 413.383, \"end\": 413.583, \"score\": 0.528}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 413.583, \"end\": 413.723, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 413.723, \"end\": 413.923, \"score\": 0.618}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 413.923, \"end\": 414.063, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 414.063, \"end\": 414.223, \"score\": 0.606}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 414.223, \"end\": 414.343, \"score\": 0.672}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 414.343, \"end\": 414.463, \"score\": 0.438}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 414.463, \"end\": 414.663, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 414.663, \"end\": 415.344, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 415.344, \"end\": 415.464, 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{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 418.225, \"end\": 418.765, \"score\": 0.572}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 418.765, \"end\": 418.905, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 418.905, \"end\": 419.485, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 419.485, \"end\": 419.825, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 419.825, \"end\": 420.005, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 420.005, \"end\": 420.145, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"瞭\", \"start\": 420.145, \"end\": 420.425, \"score\": 0.679}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 420.425, \"end\": 421.105, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 421.105, \"end\": 421.286, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 421.286, \"end\": 421.406, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 421.406, \"end\": 421.566, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 421.566, \"end\": 421.686, 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\"score\": 0.623}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 425.767, \"end\": 425.867, \"score\": 0.51}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 425.867, \"end\": 425.947, \"score\": 0.32}, {\"word\": \"廢\"}, {\"word\": \"棄\"}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 425.947, \"end\": 426.947, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 426.947, \"end\": 427.147, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 427.147, \"end\": 427.267, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 427.267, \"end\": 427.728, \"score\": 0.653}, {\"word\": \"焚\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 427.728, \"end\": 428.108, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 428.108, \"end\": 428.368, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 428.368, \"end\": 429.028, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"掩\", \"start\": 429.028, \"end\": 429.188, \"score\": 0.614}, {\"word\": \"埋\", \"start\": 429.188, \"end\": 429.408, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 429.408, \"end\": 429.428, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 429.428, \"end\": 429.868, \"score\": 0.555}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 429.868, \"end\": 429.888, \"score\": 0.523}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 429.888, \"end\": 430.388, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 430.388, \"end\": 430.488, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 430.488, \"end\": 430.608, \"score\": 0.494}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 430.608, \"end\": 430.808, \"score\": 0.626}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 430.808, \"end\": 430.949, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 430.949, \"end\": 431.109, \"score\": 0.673}, {\"word\": \"左\", \"start\": 431.109, \"end\": 431.249, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"圖\"}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 431.249, \"end\": 431.269, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 432.549, \"end\": 457.895, \"text\": \"就是說2022年之前一般廢棄物的焚化處理量沒有突破欸長年都維持在400萬公噸那個黑色的部分400萬公噸即便2022年達到最高的處理量都還是來沒有辦法不足以應付這個垃圾的這個生成那部長那環境部每年花了1、20億的錢那到底就是說它是用在哪裡了跑去哪裡了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 432.549, \"end\": 432.649, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 432.649, \"end\": 433.329, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 433.329, \"end\": 434.149, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 434.149, \"end\": 434.329, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 434.329, \"end\": 434.67, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 434.67, \"end\": 434.81, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"般\", \"start\": 434.81, \"end\": 435.47, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"廢\"}, {\"word\": \"棄\"}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 435.47, \"end\": 435.79, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 435.79, \"end\": 435.93, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"焚\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 435.93, 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{\"word\": \"噸\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 439.871, \"end\": 440.291, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"黑\", \"start\": 440.291, \"end\": 440.451, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"色\", \"start\": 440.451, \"end\": 440.611, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 440.611, \"end\": 440.751, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 440.751, \"end\": 440.871, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 440.871, \"end\": 441.591, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 441.591, \"end\": 442.711, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"噸\"}, {\"word\": \"即\", \"start\": 442.711, \"end\": 442.851, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 442.851, \"end\": 443.432, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 443.432, \"end\": 444.192, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"達\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", 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{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 452.674, \"end\": 452.794, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 452.794, \"end\": 452.954, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 452.954, \"end\": 453.134, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 453.134, \"end\": 453.314, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 453.314, \"end\": 453.954, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 453.954, \"end\": 454.974, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 454.974, \"end\": 455.394, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 455.394, \"end\": 455.594, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 455.594, \"end\": 455.734, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 455.734, \"end\": 455.854, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 455.854, \"end\": 456.014, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 456.014, \"end\": 456.194, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 456.194, \"end\": 456.314, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 456.314, \"end\": 456.515, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 456.515, \"end\": 456.675, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 456.675, \"end\": 457.075, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 457.075, \"end\": 457.315, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"跑\", \"start\": 457.315, \"end\": 457.535, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 457.535, \"end\": 457.695, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 457.695, \"end\": 457.875, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 457.875, \"end\": 457.895, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 459.305, \"end\": 485.952, \"text\": \"事實上台灣現在包括這個花蓮跟新竹縣的掩埋場也是剛剛才落成它可以增加大概是30萬噸的一個處理量能每年所以這一塊事實上未來投入整個垃圾的處理之後這個情況應該會改善所以這個費用您是放在這個風化輪的整新改建還是說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 459.305, \"end\": 459.485, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 459.485, \"end\": 459.765, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 459.765, \"end\": 460.325, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 460.325, \"end\": 460.725, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 460.725, \"end\": 460.905, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 460.905, \"end\": 463.806, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 463.806, \"end\": 464.386, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"蓮\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 464.386, \"end\": 465.087, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 465.087, \"end\": 465.267, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"竹\", \"start\": 465.267, \"end\": 465.707, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 465.707, \"end\": 466.027, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"掩\", \"start\": 466.027, \"end\": 466.147, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"埋\", \"start\": 466.147, 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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 470.068, \"end\": 472.528, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"噸\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 472.528, \"end\": 472.648, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 472.648, \"end\": 473.128, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 473.128, \"end\": 473.269, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 473.269, \"end\": 473.449, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 473.449, \"end\": 473.629, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 473.629, \"end\": 473.849, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 473.849, \"end\": 474.809, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 474.809, \"end\": 474.929, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 474.929, \"end\": 475.349, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 475.349, \"end\": 476.049, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"塊\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", 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{\"word\": \"輪\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 484.731, \"end\": 484.911, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 484.911, \"end\": 485.191, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 485.191, \"end\": 485.472, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 485.472, \"end\": 485.672, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 485.672, \"end\": 485.932, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 485.932, \"end\": 485.952, \"score\": 0.053}, {\"word\": \"說\"}]}, {\"start\": 487.612, \"end\": 512.974, \"text\": \"還有包括有些縣市他沒有焚化爐比如說像南投那我們會補助他所以目前還是在一個偵測焚化爐的一個做法對一個過渡的階段事實上長遠來講我想公益暫期是必先利其器就是說處理這個事業廢墟量能不足之外那當然專用的處理廠也許也是可以考慮那如何台灣的焚化爐系統有很大第一個使用年限過高\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 487.612, \"end\": 487.812, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 487.812, \"end\": 488.033, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 488.033, \"end\": 489.093, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 489.093, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 636.012, \"end\": 636.212, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 636.212, \"end\": 636.433, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 636.433, \"end\": 636.513, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 636.513, \"end\": 636.653, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 636.653, \"end\": 636.773, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 636.773, \"end\": 636.793, \"score\": 0.006}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,734 --> 00:00:08,079\n還是有請學部長?請學部長。學部長辛苦。你好。部長,我想先請教您幾個問題。您知道歐盟今年開始要申報碳關稅,2026年要正式課稅。\n\n2\n00:00:21,371 --> 00:00:38,621\n事實上不只今年事實上大同去年10月份就開始了就是說您瞭解就是我連續幾個問題也許部長就告訴我說是不是知道瞭解那部長知道美國中國也各自在建構他們自己的碳關稅標準美國甚至在2030的課徵標準是比歐盟還高喔\n\n3\n00:00:39,602 --> 00:01:05,216\n部長也瞭解這個狀況嗎?我瞭解事實上在去年美國還提出一個CCA的法案不過跟前委員報告CCA法案到目前為止完全沒有進展根本沒有聲音所以我想這種提議概念大家都有請部長繼續掌握這些資訊那部長您講2026年歐盟碳關稅每噸大概折算多少台幣嗎?\n\n4\n00:01:07,508 --> 00:01:22,617\n呃事實上歐盟的碳關稅的這個部分每一噸是100歐元嘛齁但是這個東西事實上也大概也是大概我掌握是八十八九十元大概是也是三千塊的三千元的台幣\n\n5\n00:01:24,858 --> 00:01:27,180\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n6\n00:01:50,859 --> 00:02:11,931\n我們現在550幾家的被徵收碳費的對象不必然他們會有產品輸到歐盟去。那這一塊事實上螺絲、螺帽、水泥等等這些他們要輸歐盟會受到西邊影響的這一部分事實上反而是蠻多中小企業。\n\n7\n00:02:12,671 --> 00:02:18,654\n部長其實我強調是他們是一個全球的概念是我們這邊徵收了那他這邊是可以扣抵的就是說這個觀念我們就是要有那部長認為這個差額與其讓歐盟鑽索假設發生了還是說我們臺灣自己來徵收這個足額的這個徵收然後對我們國家整體是好的您同意嗎\n\n8\n00:02:32,461 --> 00:02:36,884\n您同意嗎?是,完全認同陳文的看法。部長,您之前說臺灣的碳費起徵價是320元,然後再逐年調升。我知道環團他們希望底價是500開始。假設2030年我們的目標值是3000元,其實這個差距很大。如果我們這個時候調幅很大,對廠商其實衝擊很大。\n\n9\n00:02:58,183 --> 00:03:00,404\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45\n\n10\n00:03:15,330 --> 00:03:41,020\n而且也把它公告出來讓廠商企業可以去一做準備我想這個是很好的謝謝部長部長我想再瞭解一下臺灣近年還面臨很多這個垃圾山的問題那因為垃圾堆積發生火災就是頻傳我想至少發生在新北、桃園、嘉義、台東、苗栗、新竹、屏東和南投等都發生過那個垃圾在悶燒那造成嚴重的空氣污染\n\n11\n00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:56,566\n那我想這個不但是對於我們的生態有影響那對居民生活是一個重大困擾甚至也可能嚴重的對我們的地下水有污染我想部長應該非常清楚那在2023年環境部的官員有指出\n\n12\n00:03:57,646 --> 00:03:59,748\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n13\n00:04:17,267 --> 00:04:37,153\n同意這個說法嗎?我給陳委員報告這個說法不全然正確因為發生火災的這個當然有一些是包括他事上是非法的暫時的氣質我跟陳委員報告我們現在有24座混化爐在運作他的處理量能是一年650萬噸\n\n14\n00:04:39,654 --> 00:04:44,460\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n15\n00:04:58,896 --> 00:05:21,178\n處理事業會期負的單價比較高部長您說有一樣但是請問那您認為垃圾山的主因是什麼我們已經在未來實際上還有幾座魂化爐陸陸續續經過整改之後它的處理量能跟效率都提升所以環境部在這一塊倒是可以跟大家報告我們等一下再來看一些數字2027年以前大概一般\n\n16\n00:05:21,818 --> 00:05:28,881\n我現在先談一下這個新峰掩埋場就像其他的垃圾堆置場一樣它因為高溫或早氣在5年內引發的火災有67次所以他們當地的居民的里長就表示說這個新峰掩埋場長期堆置垃圾它的那個惡臭、蚊蟲滋生是居民非常重大的困難那更不要說火災造成的這些空氣污染就是影響人民的健康\n\n17\n00:05:51,331 --> 00:06:10,251\n而且垃圾堆在那個地方對他們來說就好像夢魘啦或是這個不定時炸彈那剛剛好像部長也提到垃圾掩埋場是大概是將近400處吧393處我掌握的數字是…事實上給請問報告齁垃圾處理方式齁最重端的處理掩埋場一種\n\n18\n00:06:11,152 --> 00:06:13,334\n但是有關預算中心110年度的單位預算評估報告也說臺灣掩埋廠的空間是趨於飽和已經也不及應付產生的量即便是封閉的\n\n19\n00:06:28,550 --> 00:06:52,403\n封閉的掩埋場其實還是有傷害在土壤流失、滲水外溢、二臭味影響未來的土地利用那我知道多元化那個剛剛部長已經提到了就是第二期已經在進行了那針對掩埋場的部分部長覺得該怎麼樣來解決事實上掩埋場我們覺得以台灣現在的情況不會再增加了但是會去做整改\n\n20\n00:06:53,183 --> 00:07:11,269\n整改之後事實上它的空間還會再出來不過整改的問題等一下我也再跟那個部長討論一下就據本席瞭解國家每年大概至少花15億以上來處理末端垃圾那當然處理廢棄物方式有焚化、回收、掩埋等等等等但是我們看到左邊這個圖表\n\n21\n00:07:12,549 --> 00:07:37,895\n就是說2022年之前一般廢棄物的焚化處理量沒有突破欸長年都維持在400萬公噸那個黑色的部分400萬公噸即便2022年達到最高的處理量都還是來沒有辦法不足以應付這個垃圾的這個生成那部長那環境部每年花了1、20億的錢那到底就是說它是用在哪裡了跑去哪裡了\n\n22\n00:07:39,305 --> 00:08:05,952\n事實上台灣現在包括這個花蓮跟新竹縣的掩埋場也是剛剛才落成它可以增加大概是30萬噸的一個處理量能每年所以這一塊事實上未來投入整個垃圾的處理之後這個情況應該會改善所以這個費用您是放在這個風化輪的整新改建還是說\n\n23\n00:08:07,612 --> 00:08:32,974\n還有包括有些縣市他沒有焚化爐比如說像南投那我們會補助他所以目前還是在一個偵測焚化爐的一個做法對一個過渡的階段事實上長遠來講我想公益暫期是必先利其器就是說處理這個事業廢墟量能不足之外那當然專用的處理廠也許也是可以考慮那如何台灣的焚化爐系統有很大第一個使用年限過高\n\n24\n00:08:33,815 --> 00:08:41,602\n部長一座焚化爐的平均使用年大概是我了解應該是20年就要做整改嘛是但是現在到目前為止您剛剛說24座那沒有關我這邊25座的焚化爐半數已經用過超過20年線像最古老的這個內湖焚化爐用了30年之久欸\n\n25\n00:08:50,429 --> 00:09:15,701\n所以一直到2021年還進入整備期所以這當然會壓縮末端垃圾的處理對不對這是第一個那第二個焚化爐設計的熱值我們知道每座焚化爐它可以處理垃圾的這個量能多管受限於這個垃圾焚化爐產生的熱值對不對那早期我們的設計是說每公斤是1350到1600大卡但是因為隨著垃圾成分的改變尤其近年來那個塑膠成分增加\n\n26\n00:09:16,501 --> 00:09:41,682\n那塑膠成分的這個熱值會達到每公斤4000到5000卡所以現在目前這個焚化爐的設定熱值是兩倍高欸那這樣熱設熱值升高表示焚化爐、焚化廠它的處理量能也跟著減少啊那你現在還在蓋焚化爐嗎?用焚化爐來解決嗎?事實上我們未來已經大概到29座焚化爐之後就沒有再增加了\n\n27\n00:09:42,082 --> 00:10:06,347\n一般家戶的部位那我最後談到這個章化金鼎焚化爐因為我上次好像也跟部長講過因為總統大選前那個林佳龍秘書長跟鄭文燦副院長都去承諾說他不蓋但是後來選舉後不但沒有不蓋而且立刻這個3月14號這個廠商馬上火速召開這個說明會那黑衣人坐滿會場你進不去喔對蔣委員報告齁這個我們還沒有接到金鼎\n\n28\n00:10:11,534 --> 00:10:11,734\n委員會主席\n\n29\n00:10:34,269 --> 00:10:36,793\n邁向碳有價時代及碳有價時代及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4734\t8079\t還是有請學部長?請學部長。學部長辛苦。你好。部長,我想先請教您幾個問題。您知道歐盟今年開始要申報碳關稅,2026年要正式課稅。\n21371\t38621\t事實上不只今年事實上大同去年10月份就開始了就是說您瞭解就是我連續幾個問題也許部長就告訴我說是不是知道瞭解那部長知道美國中國也各自在建構他們自己的碳關稅標準美國甚至在2030的課徵標準是比歐盟還高喔\n39602\t65216\t部長也瞭解這個狀況嗎?我瞭解事實上在去年美國還提出一個CCA的法案不過跟前委員報告CCA法案到目前為止完全沒有進展根本沒有聲音所以我想這種提議概念大家都有請部長繼續掌握這些資訊那部長您講2026年歐盟碳關稅每噸大概折算多少台幣嗎?\n67508\t82617\t呃事實上歐盟的碳關稅的這個部分每一噸是100歐元嘛齁但是這個東西事實上也大概也是大概我掌握是八十八九十元大概是也是三千塊的三千元的台幣\n84858\t87180\t含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n110859\t131931\t我們現在550幾家的被徵收碳費的對象不必然他們會有產品輸到歐盟去。那這一塊事實上螺絲、螺帽、水泥等等這些他們要輸歐盟會受到西邊影響的這一部分事實上反而是蠻多中小企業。\n132671\t138654\t部長其實我強調是他們是一個全球的概念是我們這邊徵收了那他這邊是可以扣抵的就是說這個觀念我們就是要有那部長認為這個差額與其讓歐盟鑽索假設發生了還是說我們臺灣自己來徵收這個足額的這個徵收然後對我們國家整體是好的您同意嗎\n152461\t156884\t您同意嗎?是,完全認同陳文的看法。部長,您之前說臺灣的碳費起徵價是320元,然後再逐年調升。我知道環團他們希望底價是500開始。假設2030年我們的目標值是3000元,其實這個差距很大。如果我們這個時候調幅很大,對廠商其實衝擊很大。\n178183\t180404\t含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45\n195330\t221020\t而且也把它公告出來讓廠商企業可以去一做準備我想這個是很好的謝謝部長部長我想再瞭解一下臺灣近年還面臨很多這個垃圾山的問題那因為垃圾堆積發生火災就是頻傳我想至少發生在新北、桃園、嘉義、台東、苗栗、新竹、屏東和南投等都發生過那個垃圾在悶燒那造成嚴重的空氣污染\n221920\t236566\t那我想這個不但是對於我們的生態有影響那對居民生活是一個重大困擾甚至也可能嚴重的對我們的地下水有污染我想部長應該非常清楚那在2023年環境部的官員有指出\n237646\t239748\t二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n257267\t277153\t同意這個說法嗎?我給陳委員報告這個說法不全然正確因為發生火災的這個當然有一些是包括他事上是非法的暫時的氣質我跟陳委員報告我們現在有24座混化爐在運作他的處理量能是一年650萬噸\n279654\t284460\t含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n298896\t321178\t處理事業會期負的單價比較高部長您說有一樣但是請問那您認為垃圾山的主因是什麼我們已經在未來實際上還有幾座魂化爐陸陸續續經過整改之後它的處理量能跟效率都提升所以環境部在這一塊倒是可以跟大家報告我們等一下再來看一些數字2027年以前大概一般\n321818\t328881\t我現在先談一下這個新峰掩埋場就像其他的垃圾堆置場一樣它因為高溫或早氣在5年內引發的火災有67次所以他們當地的居民的里長就表示說這個新峰掩埋場長期堆置垃圾它的那個惡臭、蚊蟲滋生是居民非常重大的困難那更不要說火災造成的這些空氣污染就是影響人民的健康\n351331\t370251\t而且垃圾堆在那個地方對他們來說就好像夢魘啦或是這個不定時炸彈那剛剛好像部長也提到垃圾掩埋場是大概是將近400處吧393處我掌握的數字是…事實上給請問報告齁垃圾處理方式齁最重端的處理掩埋場一種\n371152\t373334\t但是有關預算中心110年度的單位預算評估報告也說臺灣掩埋廠的空間是趨於飽和已經也不及應付產生的量即便是封閉的\n388550\t412403\t封閉的掩埋場其實還是有傷害在土壤流失、滲水外溢、二臭味影響未來的土地利用那我知道多元化那個剛剛部長已經提到了就是第二期已經在進行了那針對掩埋場的部分部長覺得該怎麼樣來解決事實上掩埋場我們覺得以台灣現在的情況不會再增加了但是會去做整改\n413183\t431269\t整改之後事實上它的空間還會再出來不過整改的問題等一下我也再跟那個部長討論一下就據本席瞭解國家每年大概至少花15億以上來處理末端垃圾那當然處理廢棄物方式有焚化、回收、掩埋等等等等但是我們看到左邊這個圖表\n432549\t457895\t就是說2022年之前一般廢棄物的焚化處理量沒有突破欸長年都維持在400萬公噸那個黑色的部分400萬公噸即便2022年達到最高的處理量都還是來沒有辦法不足以應付這個垃圾的這個生成那部長那環境部每年花了1、20億的錢那到底就是說它是用在哪裡了跑去哪裡了\n459305\t485952\t事實上台灣現在包括這個花蓮跟新竹縣的掩埋場也是剛剛才落成它可以增加大概是30萬噸的一個處理量能每年所以這一塊事實上未來投入整個垃圾的處理之後這個情況應該會改善所以這個費用您是放在這個風化輪的整新改建還是說\n487612\t512974\t還有包括有些縣市他沒有焚化爐比如說像南投那我們會補助他所以目前還是在一個偵測焚化爐的一個做法對一個過渡的階段事實上長遠來講我想公益暫期是必先利其器就是說處理這個事業廢墟量能不足之外那當然專用的處理廠也許也是可以考慮那如何台灣的焚化爐系統有很大第一個使用年限過高\n513815\t521602\t部長一座焚化爐的平均使用年大概是我了解應該是20年就要做整改嘛是但是現在到目前為止您剛剛說24座那沒有關我這邊25座的焚化爐半數已經用過超過20年線像最古老的這個內湖焚化爐用了30年之久欸\n530429\t555701\t所以一直到2021年還進入整備期所以這當然會壓縮末端垃圾的處理對不對這是第一個那第二個焚化爐設計的熱值我們知道每座焚化爐它可以處理垃圾的這個量能多管受限於這個垃圾焚化爐產生的熱值對不對那早期我們的設計是說每公斤是1350到1600大卡但是因為隨著垃圾成分的改變尤其近年來那個塑膠成分增加\n556501\t581682\t那塑膠成分的這個熱值會達到每公斤4000到5000卡所以現在目前這個焚化爐的設定熱值是兩倍高欸那這樣熱設熱值升高表示焚化爐、焚化廠它的處理量能也跟著減少啊那你現在還在蓋焚化爐嗎?用焚化爐來解決嗎?事實上我們未來已經大概到29座焚化爐之後就沒有再增加了\n582082\t606347\t一般家戶的部位那我最後談到這個章化金鼎焚化爐因為我上次好像也跟部長講過因為總統大選前那個林佳龍秘書長跟鄭文燦副院長都去承諾說他不蓋但是後來選舉後不但沒有不蓋而且立刻這個3月14號這個廠商馬上火速召開這個說明會那黑衣人坐滿會場你進不去喔對 蔣委員報告齁這個我們還沒有接到金鼎\n611534\t611734\t委員會主席\n634269\t636793\t邁向碳有價時代及碳有價時代及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n","txt":"還是有請學部長?請學部長。學部長辛苦。你好。部長,我想先請教您幾個問題。您知道歐盟今年開始要申報碳關稅,2026年要正式課稅。\n事實上不只今年事實上大同去年10月份就開始了就是說您瞭解就是我連續幾個問題也許部長就告訴我說是不是知道瞭解那部長知道美國中國也各自在建構他們自己的碳關稅標準美國甚至在2030的課徵標準是比歐盟還高喔\n部長也瞭解這個狀況嗎?我瞭解事實上在去年美國還提出一個CCA的法案不過跟前委員報告CCA法案到目前為止完全沒有進展根本沒有聲音所以我想這種提議概念大家都有請部長繼續掌握這些資訊那部長您講2026年歐盟碳關稅每噸大概折算多少台幣嗎?\n呃事實上歐盟的碳關稅的這個部分每一噸是100歐元嘛齁但是這個東西事實上也大概也是大概我掌握是八十八九十元大概是也是三千塊的三千元的台幣\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n我們現在550幾家的被徵收碳費的對象不必然他們會有產品輸到歐盟去。那這一塊事實上螺絲、螺帽、水泥等等這些他們要輸歐盟會受到西邊影響的這一部分事實上反而是蠻多中小企業。\n部長其實我強調是他們是一個全球的概念是我們這邊徵收了那他這邊是可以扣抵的就是說這個觀念我們就是要有那部長認為這個差額與其讓歐盟鑽索假設發生了還是說我們臺灣自己來徵收這個足額的這個徵收然後對我們國家整體是好的您同意嗎\n您同意嗎?是,完全認同陳文的看法。部長,您之前說臺灣的碳費起徵價是320元,然後再逐年調升。我知道環團他們希望底價是500開始。假設2030年我們的目標值是3000元,其實這個差距很大。如果我們這個時候調幅很大,對廠商其實衝擊很大。\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45\n而且也把它公告出來讓廠商企業可以去一做準備我想這個是很好的謝謝部長部長我想再瞭解一下臺灣近年還面臨很多這個垃圾山的問題那因為垃圾堆積發生火災就是頻傳我想至少發生在新北、桃園、嘉義、台東、苗栗、新竹、屏東和南投等都發生過那個垃圾在悶燒那造成嚴重的空氣污染\n那我想這個不但是對於我們的生態有影響那對居民生活是一個重大困擾甚至也可能嚴重的對我們的地下水有污染我想部長應該非常清楚那在2023年環境部的官員有指出\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n同意這個說法嗎?我給陳委員報告這個說法不全然正確因為發生火災的這個當然有一些是包括他事上是非法的暫時的氣質我跟陳委員報告我們現在有24座混化爐在運作他的處理量能是一年650萬噸\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n處理事業會期負的單價比較高部長您說有一樣但是請問那您認為垃圾山的主因是什麼我們已經在未來實際上還有幾座魂化爐陸陸續續經過整改之後它的處理量能跟效率都提升所以環境部在這一塊倒是可以跟大家報告我們等一下再來看一些數字2027年以前大概一般\n我現在先談一下這個新峰掩埋場就像其他的垃圾堆置場一樣它因為高溫或早氣在5年內引發的火災有67次所以他們當地的居民的里長就表示說這個新峰掩埋場長期堆置垃圾它的那個惡臭、蚊蟲滋生是居民非常重大的困難那更不要說火災造成的這些空氣污染就是影響人民的健康\n而且垃圾堆在那個地方對他們來說就好像夢魘啦或是這個不定時炸彈那剛剛好像部長也提到垃圾掩埋場是大概是將近400處吧393處我掌握的數字是…事實上給請問報告齁垃圾處理方式齁最重端的處理掩埋場一種\n但是有關預算中心110年度的單位預算評估報告也說臺灣掩埋廠的空間是趨於飽和已經也不及應付產生的量即便是封閉的\n封閉的掩埋場其實還是有傷害在土壤流失、滲水外溢、二臭味影響未來的土地利用那我知道多元化那個剛剛部長已經提到了就是第二期已經在進行了那針對掩埋場的部分部長覺得該怎麼樣來解決事實上掩埋場我們覺得以台灣現在的情況不會再增加了但是會去做整改\n整改之後事實上它的空間還會再出來不過整改的問題等一下我也再跟那個部長討論一下就據本席瞭解國家每年大概至少花15億以上來處理末端垃圾那當然處理廢棄物方式有焚化、回收、掩埋等等等等但是我們看到左邊這個圖表\n就是說2022年之前一般廢棄物的焚化處理量沒有突破欸長年都維持在400萬公噸那個黑色的部分400萬公噸即便2022年達到最高的處理量都還是來沒有辦法不足以應付這個垃圾的這個生成那部長那環境部每年花了1、20億的錢那到底就是說它是用在哪裡了跑去哪裡了\n事實上台灣現在包括這個花蓮跟新竹縣的掩埋場也是剛剛才落成它可以增加大概是30萬噸的一個處理量能每年所以這一塊事實上未來投入整個垃圾的處理之後這個情況應該會改善所以這個費用您是放在這個風化輪的整新改建還是說\n還有包括有些縣市他沒有焚化爐比如說像南投那我們會補助他所以目前還是在一個偵測焚化爐的一個做法對一個過渡的階段事實上長遠來講我想公益暫期是必先利其器就是說處理這個事業廢墟量能不足之外那當然專用的處理廠也許也是可以考慮那如何台灣的焚化爐系統有很大第一個使用年限過高\n部長一座焚化爐的平均使用年大概是我了解應該是20年就要做整改嘛是但是現在到目前為止您剛剛說24座那沒有關我這邊25座的焚化爐半數已經用過超過20年線像最古老的這個內湖焚化爐用了30年之久欸\n所以一直到2021年還進入整備期所以這當然會壓縮末端垃圾的處理對不對這是第一個那第二個焚化爐設計的熱值我們知道每座焚化爐它可以處理垃圾的這個量能多管受限於這個垃圾焚化爐產生的熱值對不對那早期我們的設計是說每公斤是1350到1600大卡但是因為隨著垃圾成分的改變尤其近年來那個塑膠成分增加\n那塑膠成分的這個熱值會達到每公斤4000到5000卡所以現在目前這個焚化爐的設定熱值是兩倍高欸那這樣熱設熱值升高表示焚化爐、焚化廠它的處理量能也跟著減少啊那你現在還在蓋焚化爐嗎?用焚化爐來解決嗎?事實上我們未來已經大概到29座焚化爐之後就沒有再增加了\n一般家戶的部位那我最後談到這個章化金鼎焚化爐因為我上次好像也跟部長講過因為總統大選前那個林佳龍秘書長跟鄭文燦副院長都去承諾說他不蓋但是後來選舉後不但沒有不蓋而且立刻這個3月14號這個廠商馬上火速召開這個說明會那黑衣人坐滿會場你進不去喔對 蔣委員報告齁這個我們還沒有接到金鼎\n委員會主席\n邁向碳有價時代及碳有價時代及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.734 --> 00:08.079\n還是有請學部長?請學部長。學部長辛苦。你好。部長,我想先請教您幾個問題。您知道歐盟今年開始要申報碳關稅,2026年要正式課稅。\n\n00:21.371 --> 00:38.621\n事實上不只今年事實上大同去年10月份就開始了就是說您瞭解就是我連續幾個問題也許部長就告訴我說是不是知道瞭解那部長知道美國中國也各自在建構他們自己的碳關稅標準美國甚至在2030的課徵標準是比歐盟還高喔\n\n00:39.602 --> 01:05.216\n部長也瞭解這個狀況嗎?我瞭解事實上在去年美國還提出一個CCA的法案不過跟前委員報告CCA法案到目前為止完全沒有進展根本沒有聲音所以我想這種提議概念大家都有請部長繼續掌握這些資訊那部長您講2026年歐盟碳關稅每噸大概折算多少台幣嗎?\n\n01:07.508 --> 01:22.617\n呃事實上歐盟的碳關稅的這個部分每一噸是100歐元嘛齁但是這個東西事實上也大概也是大概我掌握是八十八九十元大概是也是三千塊的三千元的台幣\n\n01:24.858 --> 01:27.180\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n01:50.859 --> 02:11.931\n我們現在550幾家的被徵收碳費的對象不必然他們會有產品輸到歐盟去。那這一塊事實上螺絲、螺帽、水泥等等這些他們要輸歐盟會受到西邊影響的這一部分事實上反而是蠻多中小企業。\n\n02:12.671 --> 02:18.654\n部長其實我強調是他們是一個全球的概念是我們這邊徵收了那他這邊是可以扣抵的就是說這個觀念我們就是要有那部長認為這個差額與其讓歐盟鑽索假設發生了還是說我們臺灣自己來徵收這個足額的這個徵收然後對我們國家整體是好的您同意嗎\n\n02:32.461 --> 02:36.884\n您同意嗎?是,完全認同陳文的看法。部長,您之前說臺灣的碳費起徵價是320元,然後再逐年調升。我知道環團他們希望底價是500開始。假設2030年我們的目標值是3000元,其實這個差距很大。如果我們這個時候調幅很大,對廠商其實衝擊很大。\n\n02:58.183 --> 03:00.404\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45\n\n03:15.330 --> 03:41.020\n而且也把它公告出來讓廠商企業可以去一做準備我想這個是很好的謝謝部長部長我想再瞭解一下臺灣近年還面臨很多這個垃圾山的問題那因為垃圾堆積發生火災就是頻傳我想至少發生在新北、桃園、嘉義、台東、苗栗、新竹、屏東和南投等都發生過那個垃圾在悶燒那造成嚴重的空氣污染\n\n03:41.920 --> 03:56.566\n那我想這個不但是對於我們的生態有影響那對居民生活是一個重大困擾甚至也可能嚴重的對我們的地下水有污染我想部長應該非常清楚那在2023年環境部的官員有指出\n\n03:57.646 --> 03:59.748\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n04:17.267 --> 04:37.153\n同意這個說法嗎?我給陳委員報告這個說法不全然正確因為發生火災的這個當然有一些是包括他事上是非法的暫時的氣質我跟陳委員報告我們現在有24座混化爐在運作他的處理量能是一年650萬噸\n\n04:39.654 --> 04:44.460\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n04:58.896 --> 05:21.178\n處理事業會期負的單價比較高部長您說有一樣但是請問那您認為垃圾山的主因是什麼我們已經在未來實際上還有幾座魂化爐陸陸續續經過整改之後它的處理量能跟效率都提升所以環境部在這一塊倒是可以跟大家報告我們等一下再來看一些數字2027年以前大概一般\n\n05:21.818 --> 05:28.881\n我現在先談一下這個新峰掩埋場就像其他的垃圾堆置場一樣它因為高溫或早氣在5年內引發的火災有67次所以他們當地的居民的里長就表示說這個新峰掩埋場長期堆置垃圾它的那個惡臭、蚊蟲滋生是居民非常重大的困難那更不要說火災造成的這些空氣污染就是影響人民的健康\n\n05:51.331 --> 06:10.251\n而且垃圾堆在那個地方對他們來說就好像夢魘啦或是這個不定時炸彈那剛剛好像部長也提到垃圾掩埋場是大概是將近400處吧393處我掌握的數字是…事實上給請問報告齁垃圾處理方式齁最重端的處理掩埋場一種\n\n06:11.152 --> 06:13.334\n但是有關預算中心110年度的單位預算評估報告也說臺灣掩埋廠的空間是趨於飽和已經也不及應付產生的量即便是封閉的\n\n06:28.550 --> 06:52.403\n封閉的掩埋場其實還是有傷害在土壤流失、滲水外溢、二臭味影響未來的土地利用那我知道多元化那個剛剛部長已經提到了就是第二期已經在進行了那針對掩埋場的部分部長覺得該怎麼樣來解決事實上掩埋場我們覺得以台灣現在的情況不會再增加了但是會去做整改\n\n06:53.183 --> 07:11.269\n整改之後事實上它的空間還會再出來不過整改的問題等一下我也再跟那個部長討論一下就據本席瞭解國家每年大概至少花15億以上來處理末端垃圾那當然處理廢棄物方式有焚化、回收、掩埋等等等等但是我們看到左邊這個圖表\n\n07:12.549 --> 07:37.895\n就是說2022年之前一般廢棄物的焚化處理量沒有突破欸長年都維持在400萬公噸那個黑色的部分400萬公噸即便2022年達到最高的處理量都還是來沒有辦法不足以應付這個垃圾的這個生成那部長那環境部每年花了1、20億的錢那到底就是說它是用在哪裡了跑去哪裡了\n\n07:39.305 --> 08:05.952\n事實上台灣現在包括這個花蓮跟新竹縣的掩埋場也是剛剛才落成它可以增加大概是30萬噸的一個處理量能每年所以這一塊事實上未來投入整個垃圾的處理之後這個情況應該會改善所以這個費用您是放在這個風化輪的整新改建還是說\n\n08:07.612 --> 08:32.974\n還有包括有些縣市他沒有焚化爐比如說像南投那我們會補助他所以目前還是在一個偵測焚化爐的一個做法對一個過渡的階段事實上長遠來講我想公益暫期是必先利其器就是說處理這個事業廢墟量能不足之外那當然專用的處理廠也許也是可以考慮那如何台灣的焚化爐系統有很大第一個使用年限過高\n\n08:33.815 --> 08:41.602\n部長一座焚化爐的平均使用年大概是我了解應該是20年就要做整改嘛是但是現在到目前為止您剛剛說24座那沒有關我這邊25座的焚化爐半數已經用過超過20年線像最古老的這個內湖焚化爐用了30年之久欸\n\n08:50.429 --> 09:15.701\n所以一直到2021年還進入整備期所以這當然會壓縮末端垃圾的處理對不對這是第一個那第二個焚化爐設計的熱值我們知道每座焚化爐它可以處理垃圾的這個量能多管受限於這個垃圾焚化爐產生的熱值對不對那早期我們的設計是說每公斤是1350到1600大卡但是因為隨著垃圾成分的改變尤其近年來那個塑膠成分增加\n\n09:16.501 --> 09:41.682\n那塑膠成分的這個熱值會達到每公斤4000到5000卡所以現在目前這個焚化爐的設定熱值是兩倍高欸那這樣熱設熱值升高表示焚化爐、焚化廠它的處理量能也跟著減少啊那你現在還在蓋焚化爐嗎?用焚化爐來解決嗎?事實上我們未來已經大概到29座焚化爐之後就沒有再增加了\n\n09:42.082 --> 10:06.347\n一般家戶的部位那我最後談到這個章化金鼎焚化爐因為我上次好像也跟部長講過因為總統大選前那個林佳龍秘書長跟鄭文燦副院長都去承諾說他不蓋但是後來選舉後不但沒有不蓋而且立刻這個3月14號這個廠商馬上火速召開這個說明會那黑衣人坐滿會場你進不去喔對蔣委員報告齁這個我們還沒有接到金鼎\n\n10:11.534 --> 10:11.734\n委員會主席\n\n10:34.269 --> 10:36.793\n邁向碳有價時代及碳有價時代及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.734,"end":8.079,"text":"還是有請學部長?請學部長。學部長辛苦。你好。部長,我想先請教您幾個問題。您知道歐盟今年開始要申報碳關稅,2026年要正式課稅。"},{"start":21.371,"end":38.621,"text":"事實上不只今年事實上大同去年10月份就開始了就是說您瞭解就是我連續幾個問題也許部長就告訴我說是不是知道瞭解那部長知道美國中國也各自在建構他們自己的碳關稅標準美國甚至在2030的課徵標準是比歐盟還高喔"},{"start":39.602,"end":65.216,"text":"部長也瞭解這個狀況嗎?我瞭解事實上在去年美國還提出一個CCA的法案不過跟前委員報告CCA法案到目前為止完全沒有進展根本沒有聲音所以我想這種提議概念大家都有請部長繼續掌握這些資訊那部長您講2026年歐盟碳關稅每噸大概折算多少台幣嗎?"},{"start":67.508,"end":82.617,"text":"呃事實上歐盟的碳關稅的這個部分每一噸是100歐元嘛齁但是這個東西事實上也大概也是大概我掌握是八十八九十元大概是也是三千塊的三千元的台幣"},{"start":84.858,"end":87.18,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":110.859,"end":131.931,"text":"我們現在550幾家的被徵收碳費的對象不必然他們會有產品輸到歐盟去。那這一塊事實上螺絲、螺帽、水泥等等這些他們要輸歐盟會受到西邊影響的這一部分事實上反而是蠻多中小企業。"},{"start":132.671,"end":138.654,"text":"部長其實我強調是他們是一個全球的概念是我們這邊徵收了那他這邊是可以扣抵的就是說這個觀念我們就是要有那部長認為這個差額與其讓歐盟鑽索假設發生了還是說我們臺灣自己來徵收這個足額的這個徵收然後對我們國家整體是好的您同意嗎"},{"start":152.461,"end":156.884,"text":"您同意嗎?是,完全認同陳文的看法。部長,您之前說臺灣的碳費起徵價是320元,然後再逐年調升。我知道環團他們希望底價是500開始。假設2030年我們的目標值是3000元,其實這個差距很大。如果我們這個時候調幅很大,對廠商其實衝擊很大。"},{"start":178.183,"end":180.404,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45"},{"start":195.33,"end":221.02,"text":"而且也把它公告出來讓廠商企業可以去一做準備我想這個是很好的謝謝部長部長我想再瞭解一下臺灣近年還面臨很多這個垃圾山的問題那因為垃圾堆積發生火災就是頻傳我想至少發生在新北、桃園、嘉義、台東、苗栗、新竹、屏東和南投等都發生過那個垃圾在悶燒那造成嚴重的空氣污染"},{"start":221.92,"end":236.566,"text":"那我想這個不但是對於我們的生態有影響那對居民生活是一個重大困擾甚至也可能嚴重的對我們的地下水有污染我想部長應該非常清楚那在2023年環境部的官員有指出"},{"start":237.646,"end":239.748,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":257.267,"end":277.153,"text":"同意這個說法嗎?我給陳委員報告這個說法不全然正確因為發生火災的這個當然有一些是包括他事上是非法的暫時的氣質我跟陳委員報告我們現在有24座混化爐在運作他的處理量能是一年650萬噸"},{"start":279.654,"end":284.46,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":298.896,"end":321.178,"text":"處理事業會期負的單價比較高部長您說有一樣但是請問那您認為垃圾山的主因是什麼我們已經在未來實際上還有幾座魂化爐陸陸續續經過整改之後它的處理量能跟效率都提升所以環境部在這一塊倒是可以跟大家報告我們等一下再來看一些數字2027年以前大概一般"},{"start":321.818,"end":328.881,"text":"我現在先談一下這個新峰掩埋場就像其他的垃圾堆置場一樣它因為高溫或早氣在5年內引發的火災有67次所以他們當地的居民的里長就表示說這個新峰掩埋場長期堆置垃圾它的那個惡臭、蚊蟲滋生是居民非常重大的困難那更不要說火災造成的這些空氣污染就是影響人民的健康"},{"start":351.331,"end":370.251,"text":"而且垃圾堆在那個地方對他們來說就好像夢魘啦或是這個不定時炸彈那剛剛好像部長也提到垃圾掩埋場是大概是將近400處吧393處我掌握的數字是…事實上給請問報告齁垃圾處理方式齁最重端的處理掩埋場一種"},{"start":371.152,"end":373.334,"text":"但是有關預算中心110年度的單位預算評估報告也說臺灣掩埋廠的空間是趨於飽和已經也不及應付產生的量即便是封閉的"},{"start":388.55,"end":412.403,"text":"封閉的掩埋場其實還是有傷害在土壤流失、滲水外溢、二臭味影響未來的土地利用那我知道多元化那個剛剛部長已經提到了就是第二期已經在進行了那針對掩埋場的部分部長覺得該怎麼樣來解決事實上掩埋場我們覺得以台灣現在的情況不會再增加了但是會去做整改"},{"start":413.183,"end":431.269,"text":"整改之後事實上它的空間還會再出來不過整改的問題等一下我也再跟那個部長討論一下就據本席瞭解國家每年大概至少花15億以上來處理末端垃圾那當然處理廢棄物方式有焚化、回收、掩埋等等等等但是我們看到左邊這個圖表"},{"start":432.549,"end":457.895,"text":"就是說2022年之前一般廢棄物的焚化處理量沒有突破欸長年都維持在400萬公噸那個黑色的部分400萬公噸即便2022年達到最高的處理量都還是來沒有辦法不足以應付這個垃圾的這個生成那部長那環境部每年花了1、20億的錢那到底就是說它是用在哪裡了跑去哪裡了"},{"start":459.305,"end":485.952,"text":"事實上台灣現在包括這個花蓮跟新竹縣的掩埋場也是剛剛才落成它可以增加大概是30萬噸的一個處理量能每年所以這一塊事實上未來投入整個垃圾的處理之後這個情況應該會改善所以這個費用您是放在這個風化輪的整新改建還是說"},{"start":487.612,"end":512.974,"text":"還有包括有些縣市他沒有焚化爐比如說像南投那我們會補助他所以目前還是在一個偵測焚化爐的一個做法對一個過渡的階段事實上長遠來講我想公益暫期是必先利其器就是說處理這個事業廢墟量能不足之外那當然專用的處理廠也許也是可以考慮那如何台灣的焚化爐系統有很大第一個使用年限過高"},{"start":513.815,"end":521.602,"text":"部長一座焚化爐的平均使用年大概是我了解應該是20年就要做整改嘛是但是現在到目前為止您剛剛說24座那沒有關我這邊25座的焚化爐半數已經用過超過20年線像最古老的這個內湖焚化爐用了30年之久欸"},{"start":530.429,"end":555.701,"text":"所以一直到2021年還進入整備期所以這當然會壓縮末端垃圾的處理對不對這是第一個那第二個焚化爐設計的熱值我們知道每座焚化爐它可以處理垃圾的這個量能多管受限於這個垃圾焚化爐產生的熱值對不對那早期我們的設計是說每公斤是1350到1600大卡但是因為隨著垃圾成分的改變尤其近年來那個塑膠成分增加"},{"start":556.501,"end":581.682,"text":"那塑膠成分的這個熱值會達到每公斤4000到5000卡所以現在目前這個焚化爐的設定熱值是兩倍高欸那這樣熱設熱值升高表示焚化爐、焚化廠它的處理量能也跟著減少啊那你現在還在蓋焚化爐嗎?用焚化爐來解決嗎?事實上我們未來已經大概到29座焚化爐之後就沒有再增加了"},{"start":582.082,"end":606.347,"text":"一般家戶的部位那我最後談到這個章化金鼎焚化爐因為我上次好像也跟部長講過因為總統大選前那個林佳龍秘書長跟鄭文燦副院長都去承諾說他不蓋但是後來選舉後不但沒有不蓋而且立刻這個3月14號這個廠商馬上火速召開這個說明會那黑衣人坐滿會場你進不去喔對 蔣委員報告齁這個我們還沒有接到金鼎"},{"start":611.534,"end":611.734,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":634.269,"end":636.793,"text":"邁向碳有價時代及碳有價時代及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"}]}}}}