{"id":150466,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150466","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d541a774a6c3414365e53fb40122520aebf8ba9b0039caa7a649da32d03a93cd485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:55:31 - 10:06:20","影片長度":"00:10:49","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查「行人交通安全設施條例草案」(一)行政院函請審議「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案。(二)委員黃捷等16人擬具「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案。【上開議案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,23-1"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":649,"end_time":"2024-03-27T10:06:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T09:55:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":283,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時55分）謝謝主席，交通部、內政部有請。"],["主席：好，請我們內政部部長、交通部次長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安，我先請交通部次長說明一下。次長，你覺得我們最近的微罪不舉，把檢舉機制廢除，對於行人交通安全的衝擊是什麼？請你簡單說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告一下，有關微罪不舉，從整體性來看的話，是鑑於檢舉的事件多了，然後記點的制度也多了以後，造成整個社會上有一體兩面的看法，所以我們提出了相關的檢討。"],["牛委員煦庭：政府處理這個政策的時候就變來變去，一開始講說要全面限縮，限縮之後被罵，因為交通亂象橫生，行人安全受創，然後你後來又恢復，而且還加嚴，加嚴之後當然就衝擊到職業駕駛，然後你現在又全面寬鬆，這是很奇怪的。本席在這邊表達立場，我們當然理解因為現在有很多設施是不足的，這也是為什麼我們今天要提這個草案。記點可能會影響很多人的生計安全，這我們願意理解，可是你因為這樣子把整個檢舉機制全部廢除，相對來講很有可能會造成交通安全的倒車，交通部次長同意這樣的說法嗎？還是你覺得不會、沒有問題？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告一下，檢舉制度並不是所有都廢除，它原則上是有剛才講的有微罪不舉的……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你講的微罪不舉為什麼會影響行車安全，我跟兩位說一下……"],["陳次長彥伯：而且也跟委員報告一下……"],["牛委員煦庭：就是違規停車、併排停車、轉角停車，它會不會壓縮到行人行走的空間？它會，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：過去的時候，也許個人檢舉，我覺得檢舉達人那是另外一個議題，我們可以用法規的方式來排除過量檢舉這件事情，可是不表示我們要把一般公民遇到這種狀況的時候，一個申訴的機制把它取消掉，我認為這是有問題的。部長，我現在要問你問題了，過去曾經有一段時間把檢舉機制廢除的時候，對於警政的衝擊是什麼，可不可以請部長說明一下？"],["林部長右昌：剛剛次長已經有說明過，其實檢舉機制一直都在，並沒有廢除，只是交通部之前是把檢舉的範圍跟它的項目……"],["牛委員煦庭：大量的限縮。"],["林部長右昌：把它放寬嘛！在過去的話，因為它有兩部分，一個是我們自己警察的查察，然後第二個部分是民眾的檢舉，其實並沒有差很多啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！部長，你也清楚，我也清楚啦！過去那段時間我在當議員，所有基層警力的案量暴增啦！因為以前民眾可以拍照，現在不能拍照，這些很想檢舉的檢舉達人怎麼辦？瘋狂報警，所以變成所有的基層警力要跑來當交通警察的工作，光是處理這件事情，造成基層非常大的負擔，這件事情在這一段時間好像都沒有被討論，我是覺得交通部應該要好好思考，你如何在這兩者中間取得平衡，這方向我同意，但是你全面把這些東西都變成微罪不舉的時候，會造成交通安全、行人安全以及市容的破壞，也會造成警政單位非常大的執法壓力，這件事情你們兩個部會有沒有商量過？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，交通部跟內政部在交通安全、交通執法上其實是一體的，所以我們是有充分的討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：有充分的討論？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。至於委員剛才特別提到有關微罪不舉或是記點制度的改變，我的瞭解在交通委員會即將會有所討論，我想屆時再充分的說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望好好討論，我希望行政單位審慎處理，我覺得記點也許太嚴格了，這真的衝擊很大，應該緩步進行這我同意，但是你全部把它取消之後，會有另一股聲音的民怨出來，它的副作用不會馬上顯現，但是會逐步顯現，然後會造成行人安全的衝擊，我相信交通部長不會反對我這樣的說法，還是你覺得這個東西對行人安全沒有任何影響？你要這樣說，我也沒有關係。你覺得呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：剛才我特別提到，這樣的一個議題或修法即將會在立法院委員之間做討論，所以我想我們尊重到時討論的結果，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好吧！我們回到今天的重點「行人交通安全設施條例」草案，本席對於這件事情有幾個意見，第一個，我們當然樂見內政部或者是交通部撥用非常多的預算來提升各式各樣最進步的保障行人安全設施，這點本席敬表同意，但是我要提醒，曾經我們在前瞻計畫的時候做過實驗，放在哪裡？放在本席的選區龜山，叫做長庚新驛站，當時在地方政府執行的時候，其實在地方的溝通上面有非常非常大的問題，因為一般普羅大眾不見得瞭解這些設施的前瞻性、進步性跟好處，以至於在推動的過程中，遭受了非常多地方民意的阻力，這些東西都由地方政府承擔，我甚至都要講，那個時候本席作為桃園的市議員，我還幫政府做事，我還主動幫它做懶人包去跟我們選區的選民做說明，說明為什麼這個工程可以有助於改善行人安全，這是我們做的事，但是我要提醒部長，這些事情不應該是民意代表的工作，我們可以協助協調，但是提供合理的政策資料，讓這個東西的好處跟進步性能夠被彰顯，這是行政機關的責任，但是我看你的草案說明裡面，雖然第五條第二項有講五個項目，但是項目裡面並沒有民眾的參與、公告的程序通知、協調彙整的機制，它是沒有入法的，本席希望在修法的過程中，把這些東西做一個妥善而且通盤的思考，中間是不是應該有一個公聽會，讓地方的民意也可以瞭解這個政策的好處跟進步性在哪裡，以降低地方對於這些新設施的阻力跟疑慮，部長是否同意我這樣的看法？"],["林部長右昌：我想這個在推動計畫裡面，其實都有把它訂定進去。"],["牛委員煦庭：我是覺得要讓它明確，本席聽到地方基層反映他們沒有拿到圖、沒有拿到說明、沒有拿到這個東西，地方政府恐怕也不一定拿得到，這個東西不能說中央有一個這樣的方向、你撥了錢，就把這些責任通通轉嫁給地方，因為既然現在也有公民參與的機制，有很多好的民間意見進來，中央有這個責任去做彙整，彙整之後把它變成簡單而且人民能夠接受的說明，也許是圖卡也好，也許是文字也好，也許是其他的東西也好，讓地方政府在配合這個條例修正大膽去做這些設施的時候，可以降低地方的阻力。部長同意我這樣的說法嗎？"],["林部長右昌：剛剛委員特別提到，其實在人行環境、人本環境的改善，地方政府非常的重要，因為這個會在推動跟執行面……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在要講的是……"],["林部長右昌：我也非常贊成你剛剛在講……"],["牛委員煦庭：來自中央給地方的支持，除了預算之外，這些說明、這些東西，它能夠越接地氣越好，這樣你推動容易，它才不會變調嘛！"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為當初你推人行道拓寬，很多人就講我不要那麼寬、我要留停車位等等，造成政策的窒礙難行，政策的本意就打了折扣，所以你前端說明得越清楚，甚至有民意的前期溝通管道、有越明確的規定，推動政策的阻力會下降。"],["林部長右昌：是，當然。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們希望內政部照這個方向來做。"],["林部長右昌：我們也會依這個方向來要求地方政府，這一方面最初期的溝通其實是確保政策成功很重要的一個關鍵。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯，越早溝通，政策成功率越高。"],["林部長右昌：是，這個我們同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：中央跟地方要攜手合作，不要說只撥錢、然後這件事就算了，好嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是，所以在條例裡面，我們也有相關監督管理的機制。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，第二個，這個照片拍的都是老生常談了，人行道想要做或者是人行道中間有電線桿、有變電箱，草案第八條裡面有講這些設施遷移有一個期限，但是本席在這邊要要求，如果要做，既然你剛剛有講政府一體對不對？這些公家的設施，你應該帶頭做示範，因為相對來講，阻力小嘛，遷移了什麼，你的配套要夠完整，光是你跟台電溝通，這些電桿、電箱要何去何從，請問現在有沒有具體的規劃跟時程報告？"],["吳署長欣修：在地方政府執行上來講，我們政策下去其實搭配了相關的管線，他也會收到通知，因為實務上來講，的確會有一些在執行上，你不得不給它壓力，因為有可能受限於預算、有可能受限於搬遷地點，所以我要給它一點時間的壓力，一定要在具體的時間內搬。"],["牛委員煦庭：你剛才講三個月，這個我不反對，但問題是三個月的時候，公部門就去帶頭執行，比如也許在三個月裡面，你在哪一個區域的電桿、電箱快速的遷移了，我覺得這對整個政策的推動就有非常好的正面意義，你們有這樣子的打算嗎？哪裡要先做示範區或怎麼樣？"],["吳署長欣修：有，其實各縣市都會跟我們提出來，他們希望的示範區先開始做，我想這過去也有一些成功案例，針對這個部分，我們一定會去彙整這些資料。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，本席的選區非常樂意，因為我們這裡一大堆電箱、電桿要遷移。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：到時候內政部要全力來協助好嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們讓這個東西遷移順利，可以嗎？部長。"],["林部長右昌：這就是地方政府能夠幫忙協助找到遷移的地點，這個就來處理……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在就很擔心你這樣回答，地方政府找得到地方的話……"],["林部長右昌：中央……"],["牛委員煦庭：台電有的時候是很難搞的，對不對？你們也很清楚。"],["林部長右昌：最主要就是要找到可替代的地方，一個可以放的點，找到點的話，它就必須要遷移。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在就很擔心到最後就是找不到，然後你這三個月的期限形同具文，這樣就不太好了。我現在醜話先說在前面，但執行的時候，我們大家都會好好來合作，這樣可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：對。當然這個就是要給一個壓力啦，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。最後一個是草案第六條叫步行環境調查，這個定義好像不是很清楚，沒關係，因為時間有限，我們就請你會後提供資料或者是我們在討論逐條的時候，你要有一個非常清楚的闡釋，誰來做步行環境的調查，它的代表性是什麼、它的專業性在哪裡、它如何有公信力，如何跟地方做合作？這些都是本席未來會關心的題目，希望內政部做好準備，要詳細的說明，我們一起讓這個政策越來越好，可以嗎？好，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["主席：好，謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","下一位請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,23-1","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","黃建賓","蘇巧慧","李昆澤","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","徐富癸","何欣純","林沛祥","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","廖先翔","吳思瑤","黃珊珊","游顥","洪申翰","李柏毅","陳冠廷","吳沛憶","陳素月","魯明哲","黃仁","劉建國","林國成","張智倫","丁學忠","林月琴","張雅琳"],"page_start":1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00:00:30,899\n市長你覺得我們最近把整個違罪布局、檢舉機制廢除對行人交通安全的衝擊是什麼?請你簡單說明一下。\n\n3\n00:00:42,850 --> 00:01:04,831\n我想跟委員報告一下有關那個違罪布局他其實是他這個整體性上來看的時候是是鑒於說檢舉的事件多了然後祭典的制度也多了以後造成了整個社會上大概有一體兩面的一個的看法\n\n4\n00:01:05,171 --> 00:01:05,351\n議員黃煦庭主席\n\n5\n00:01:21,781 --> 00:01:22,061\n議員黃捷等16人擬具\n\n6\n00:01:41,676 --> 00:02:04,896\n這交通部長同意這樣的說法嗎還是你覺得不會沒有問題我跟委員報告一下檢舉制度並不是所有都是廢除的它原則上是有剛才講的有違罪不舉的那一種對你講的違罪不舉為什麼會影響行人安全我跟兩位說一下也跟委員報告就是違規停車嘛併排停車嘛轉角停車它會被壓縮到行人行走的空間它會對不對\n\n7\n00:02:06,117 --> 00:02:29,592\n過去的時候也許個人檢舉我覺得檢舉達人那是另外一個議題我們可以用法規的方式來排除過量檢舉這件事情可是不表示我們要把一般公平遇到這種狀況的時候一個申訴的機制把它取消掉我認為這是有問題的部長我現在要問你問題了這個過去曾經有一段時間把檢舉機制廢除的時候對於警政的衝擊是什麼可不可以請部長說明一下\n\n8\n00:02:33,233 --> 00:02:59,189\n剛剛其實市長已經有說明過其實檢舉機制一直都在並沒有廢除所以只是說交通部之前是把檢舉的範圍跟它的一個項目大量的限縮把它放寬所以在過去的話我們大概我們檢查當然差不多我們自己我們自己的部分因為它有兩部分一個是我們自己警察的這個查查然後第二部分是民眾的這個檢舉\n\n9\n00:03:00,550 --> 00:03:24,844\n部長你也清楚我也清楚啦過去那段時間我們在當議員啦所有基層警力的案量暴增啦因為以前民眾可以拍照現在不能拍照這些人很想檢舉檢舉答案怎麼辦瘋狂報警所以變成所有基層警力要跑來當這個交通警察的工作光是處理這件事情造成基層非常大的負擔所以這件事情在這一段時間好像都沒有被討論啦\n\n10\n00:03:25,945 --> 00:03:42,832\n我是覺得交通部應該好好思考你如何在這兩者中間取得平衡這方向我同意但是你全面把這些東西都變成違罪不舉的時候會造成交通安全、行人安全以及市容的破壞你也會造成警政單位非常大的執法壓力這件事情你們兩個部會有沒有商量過\n\n11\n00:03:47,494 --> 00:04:11,691\n我跟委員報告交通部跟內政部因為在有關在交通安全交通執法上其實是一體的所以我們是有充分的討論有充分的討論至於委員特別提到有關這個違罪不舉或是祭典制度的改變我的了解在交通委員會即將在會有所討論我想藉時我希望好好討論啦我希望行政單位審慎處理啦\n\n12\n00:04:12,892 --> 00:04:13,652\n我相信交通部長不會反對我這樣的說法啦。\n\n13\n00:04:31,121 --> 00:04:44,681\n還是你覺得這種東西對行人安全沒有任何影響?你要這樣說我也沒有關係。你覺得勒?我想剛才我特別提到的這樣的一個議題或修法即將會在立法院委員之間來做討論。所以我想我們尊重當時討論的一個結果。謝謝。\n\n14\n00:04:48,193 --> 00:05:12,469\n我們回到今天的重點,這個行人交通安全的條例草案本席對於這件事情有幾個意見第一個,我們當然樂見內政部或是交通部撥用非常多的預算來提升各式各樣最進步的保障行人安全的設施這一點本席競表同意但是我要提醒,曾經我們在前瞻計畫的時候做過實驗放在哪裡?放在本席的選區歸山,叫做長根新驛站\n\n15\n00:05:13,510 --> 00:05:36,543\n那個時候在地方政府執行的時候其實在地方的溝通上面有非常非常大的問題因為很多一般的普羅大眾不見得了解這些設施它的前瞻性、它的進步性跟它的好處以至於在推動的過程中遭受了非常多的地方民意的阻力這些東西都由地方政府承擔我甚至都要講那個時候本席作為桃園的市議員啊我還幫政府做事啊\n\n16\n00:05:36,923 --> 00:05:53,768\n我還主動幫他做懶人包去跟我們的選區的選民去做說明為什麼這個工程可以有助於改善行人安全這是我們做的事但是我要提醒部長這些事情不應該是民意代表的工作我們可以協助協調但是提供合理的政策資料讓這個東西的好處跟進步性能夠被彰顯這是行政機關的責任\n\n17\n00:05:56,869 --> 00:06:23,495\n但是我看你的草案的說明裡面你有說這個第五條二項有講幾個五個項目但這個項目裡面並沒有民眾的參與公告的程序通知協調會診的機制他是沒有入法的本席希望在修法的過程中把這些東西做一個妥善而且通盤的思考中間是不是應該有個公聽會讓地方的民意也可以了解這個政策的好處跟進步性在哪裡去降低地方啊\n\n18\n00:06:23,795 --> 00:06:27,221\n對於這些新設施的阻力跟疑慮。部長是否同意我這樣的看法?\n\n19\n00:06:28,021 --> 00:06:53,436\n我想這個在推動計畫裡面其實都有辦法訂進去我是覺得要讓他明確啦這個本身就是地方的基準反應我們這些東西我沒有拿到圖我沒有拿到說明沒有拿到這個東西地方政府恐怕也不一定拿得到你這個東西不能說我中央有一個這樣的方向我撥了錢就把這些責任通通轉嫁給地方既然中央因為你現在也有公民參與的機制有很多好的這個民間的意見進來中央有這個責任啦去做彙整\n\n20\n00:06:53,996 --> 00:07:18,133\n拜訪會診之後變成簡單而且人民能夠接受的這些說明也許是圖卡也好也許是文字也好也許是其他的東西也好讓地方政府在配合這個條例修正然後去大膽的去做這些設施的時候去降低地方的阻力部長同意我這樣說法嗎剛剛委員特別提到其實在這個人行環境的本環境的一個改善地方政府非常的重要因為這個是會在推動跟執行面我要講的就是我非常贊成你剛剛\n\n21\n00:07:19,393 --> 00:07:34,540\n來自中央給地方的支持除了預算之外啦這些說明這些東西然後他能夠跟越接地氣越好這樣子你推動東西他才不會他才不會變掉是因為當初你推人行道拓寬很多人就講說我不要那麼寬我要留停車位什麼什麼就造成政策的自愛難行\n\n22\n00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:35,140\n﹝廣告聲﹞\n\n23\n00:07:52,555 --> 00:08:21,409\n議員:「這方面的最初期的一個溝通其實是確保政策成功很重要的一個...沒錯,越早溝通政策成功率越高,最重要跟地方要攜手合作不要說我只撥錢這次就算了好吧所以在條例裡面我們也有相關監督管理的機制第二個這個照片這個大家都是老生常談的啦人行道想要做或者是人行道中間有電線桿有變電箱你的這個草案第8條裡面有講說這些設施遷移有一個期限但是本席在這邊要要求啊\n\n24\n00:08:21,849 --> 00:08:37,550\n如果要做啊你現在既然剛剛有講政府議題對不對你這些公家的設施你應該要帶頭做示範啊因為你相對來講主力小嘛遷移的什麼東西的配套要夠完整嘛光是你跟台電溝通這些電感電箱要何去何從請問現在有沒有具體的規劃跟時程\n\n25\n00:08:41,758 --> 00:09:03,237\n報告其實在地方政府執行上來講我們這個政策下去其實搭配了相關的管制他也會都受到通知現在就變成說因為實務上來講的確會有一些在執行上你不得不給他壓力因為有可能受限於預算有可能受限於他搬遷地點所以我要給他一點時間的壓力就是說你一定要\n\n26\n00:09:04,668 --> 00:09:20,880\n所以你這樣講三個月這個我不反對但問題是三個月的時候公部門容易帶頭執行比如說也許你在三個月裡面你在哪一個區域的電乾電香快速的遷移了我覺得這對整個政策的推動它就有非常好的正面意義嘛你們有這樣子的打算嗎哪裡要先做示範區或怎麼樣\n\n27\n00:09:21,841 --> 00:09:50,865\n其實各縣市都有會跟我們提出來他們希望的示範區先開始做我想這過去也有一些成功案例這個部分我們會一定會來去彙整彙整這些資料這本期的選區非常樂意因為我們這裡一大堆電箱電桿要遷移到時候內政部你要全力來協助好不好好我們讓這個東西遷移順利這個就是那個地方政府找能夠幫忙協助找到地方的話遷移的地點的話就來處理我現在就很擔心你這樣回答地方政府找得到的地方的話\n\n28\n00:09:55,807 --> 00:10:12,297\n主要就是要找到可替代的這個可以放的點,那找到點的話那他就不替代了你現在就很擔心啦,到最後就是找不到,然後你這個三個月的期限形同巨文,這樣就不太好了好不好,我現在醜話先說在前面,但執行的時候我們大家都要好好來合作,這樣可以嗎?\n\n29\n00:10:13,117 --> 00:10:41,526\n對,當然這個就是要給一個壓力啦好,最後一個是草案第6條有一個叫做步行環境調查喔這個定義好像不是很清楚喔這沒關係因為時間有限啦我們這邊就請會後你來做或是我們在討論竹條的時候你要有個非常清楚的闡釋誰來做這個步行環境的調查它的代表性是什麼它的專業性在哪裡它如果有公信力如何跟地方做合作這些都是本期未來會關心的題目希望內政部做好準備要詳細的說明我們一起讓這個政策越來越好可以嗎\n\n30\n00:10:42,808 --> 00:10:46,747\n好!謝謝!辛苦了!好!謝謝我們牛煦庭委員的執行\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n49\t1430\t交通部內政部部長、交通部處長\n26533\t30899\t市長你覺得我們最近把整個違罪布局、檢舉機制廢除對行人交通安全的衝擊是什麼?請你簡單說明一下。\n42850\t64831\t我想跟委員報告一下有關那個違罪布局他其實是他這個整體性上來看的時候是是鑒於說檢舉的事件多了然後祭典的制度也多了以後造成了整個社會上大概有一體兩面的一個的看法\n65171\t65351\t議員黃煦庭主席\n81781\t82061\t議員黃捷等16人擬具\n101676\t124896\t這交通部長同意這樣的說法嗎還是你覺得不會沒有問題我跟委員報告一下檢舉制度並不是所有都是廢除的它原則上是有剛才講的有違罪不舉的那一種對你講的違罪不舉為什麼會影響行人安全我跟兩位說一下也跟委員報告就是違規停車嘛併排停車嘛轉角停車它會被壓縮到行人行走的空間它會對不對\n126117\t149592\t過去的時候也許個人檢舉 我覺得檢舉達人那是另外一個議題我們可以用法規的方式來排除過量檢舉這件事情可是不表示我們要把一般公平遇到這種狀況的時候一個申訴的機制把它取消掉我認為這是有問題的部長我現在要問你問題了這個過去曾經有一段時間把檢舉機制廢除的時候對於警政的衝擊是什麼可不可以請部長說明一下\n153233\t179189\t剛剛其實市長已經有說明過其實檢舉機制一直都在並沒有廢除所以只是說交通部之前是把檢舉的範圍跟它的一個項目大量的限縮把它放寬所以在過去的話我們大概我們檢查當然差不多我們自己我們自己的部分因為它有兩部分一個是我們自己警察的這個查查然後第二部分是民眾的這個檢舉\n180550\t204844\t部長你也清楚我也清楚啦過去那段時間我們在當議員啦所有基層警力的案量暴增啦因為以前民眾可以拍照現在不能拍照這些人很想檢舉檢舉答案怎麼辦瘋狂報警所以變成所有基層警力要跑來當這個交通警察的工作光是處理這件事情造成基層非常大的負擔所以這件事情在這一段時間好像都沒有被討論啦\n205945\t222832\t我是覺得交通部應該好好思考你如何在這兩者中間取得平衡這方向我同意但是你全面把這些東西都變成違罪不舉的時候會造成交通安全、行人安全以及市容的破壞你也會造成警政單位非常大的執法壓力這件事情你們兩個部會有沒有商量過\n227494\t251691\t我跟委員報告交通部跟內政部因為在有關在交通安全交通執法上其實是一體的所以我們是有充分的討論有充分的討論至於委員特別提到有關這個違罪不舉或是祭典制度的改變我的了解在交通委員會即將在會有所討論我想藉時我希望好好討論啦我希望行政單位審慎處理啦\n252892\t253652\t我相信交通部長不會反對我這樣的說法啦。\n271121\t284681\t還是你覺得這種東西對行人安全沒有任何影響?你要這樣說我也沒有關係。你覺得勒?我想剛才我特別提到的這樣的一個議題或修法即將會在立法院委員之間來做討論。所以我想我們尊重當時討論的一個結果。謝謝。\n288193\t312469\t我們回到今天的重點,這個行人交通安全的條例草案本席對於這件事情有幾個意見第一個,我們當然樂見內政部或是交通部撥用非常多的預算來提升各式各樣最進步的保障行人安全的設施這一點本席競表同意但是我要提醒,曾經我們在前瞻計畫的時候做過實驗放在哪裡?放在本席的選區歸山,叫做長根新驛站\n313510\t336543\t那個時候在地方政府執行的時候其實在地方的溝通上面有非常非常大的問題因為很多一般的普羅大眾不見得了解這些設施它的前瞻性、它的進步性跟它的好處以至於在推動的過程中遭受了非常多的地方民意的阻力這些東西都由地方政府承擔我甚至都要講那個時候本席作為桃園的市議員啊我還幫政府做事啊\n336923\t353768\t我還主動幫他做懶人包去跟我們的選區的選民去做說明為什麼這個工程可以有助於改善行人安全這是我們做的事但是我要提醒部長這些事情不應該是民意代表的工作我們可以協助協調但是提供合理的政策資料讓這個東西的好處跟進步性能夠被彰顯這是行政機關的責任\n356869\t383495\t但是我看你的草案的說明裡面你有說這個第五條二項有講幾個五個項目但這個項目裡面並沒有民眾的參與公告的程序通知協調會診的機制他是沒有入法的本席希望在修法的過程中把這些東西做一個妥善而且通盤的思考中間是不是應該有個公聽會讓地方的民意也可以了解這個政策的好處跟進步性在哪裡去降低地方啊\n383795\t387221\t對於這些新設施的阻力跟疑慮。部長是否同意我這樣的看法?\n388021\t413436\t我想這個在推動計畫裡面其實都有辦法訂進去我是覺得要讓他明確啦這個本身就是地方的基準反應我們這些東西我沒有拿到圖我沒有拿到說明沒有拿到這個東西地方政府恐怕也不一定拿得到你這個東西不能說我中央有一個這樣的方向我撥了錢就把這些責任通通轉嫁給地方既然中央因為你現在也有公民參與的機制有很多好的這個民間的意見進來中央有這個責任啦去做彙整\n413996\t438133\t拜訪會診之後變成簡單而且人民能夠接受的這些說明也許是圖卡也好也許是文字也好也許是其他的東西也好讓地方政府在配合這個條例修正然後去大膽的去做這些設施的時候去降低地方的阻力部長同意我這樣說法嗎剛剛委員特別提到其實在這個人行環境的本環境的一個改善地方政府非常的重要因為這個是會在推動跟執行面我要講的就是我非常贊成你剛剛\n439393\t454540\t來自中央給地方的支持除了預算之外啦這些說明這些東西然後他能夠跟越接地氣越好這樣子你推動東西他才不會他才不會變掉是因為當初你推人行道拓寬很多人就講說我不要那麼寬我要留停車位什麼什麼就造成政策的自愛難行\n455120\t455140\t﹝廣告聲﹞\n472555\t501409\t議員:「這方面的最初期的一個溝通其實是確保政策成功很重要的一個...沒錯,越早溝通政策成功率越高,最重要跟地方要攜手合作不要說我只撥錢這次就算了好吧所以在條例裡面我們也有相關監督管理的機制第二個這個照片這個大家都是老生常談的啦人行道想要做或者是人行道中間有電線桿有變電箱你的這個草案第8條裡面有講說這些設施遷移有一個期限但是本席在這邊要要求啊\n501849\t517550\t如果要做啊你現在既然剛剛有講政府議題對不對你這些公家的設施你應該要帶頭做示範啊因為你相對來講主力小嘛遷移的什麼東西的配套要夠完整嘛光是你跟台電溝通這些電感電箱要何去何從請問現在有沒有具體的規劃跟時程\n521758\t543237\t報告其實在地方政府執行上來講我們這個政策下去其實搭配了相關的管制他也會都受到通知現在就變成說因為實務上來講的確會有一些在執行上你不得不給他壓力因為有可能受限於預算有可能受限於他搬遷地點所以我要給他一點時間的壓力就是說你一定要\n544668\t560880\t所以你這樣講三個月這個我不反對但問題是三個月的時候公部門容易帶頭執行比如說也許你在三個月裡面你在哪一個區域的電乾電香快速的遷移了我覺得這對整個政策的推動它就有非常好的正面意義嘛你們有這樣子的打算嗎哪裡要先做示範區或怎麼樣\n561841\t590865\t其實各縣市都有會跟我們提出來他們希望的示範區先開始做我想這過去也有一些成功案例這個部分我們會一定會來去彙整彙整這些資料這本期的選區非常樂意因為我們這裡一大堆電箱電桿要遷移到時候內政部你要全力來協助好不好好我們讓這個東西遷移順利這個就是那個地方政府找能夠幫忙協助找到地方的話遷移的地點的話就來處理我現在就很擔心你這樣回答地方政府找得到的地方的話\n595807\t612297\t主要就是要找到可替代的這個可以放的點,那找到點的話那他就不替代了你現在就很擔心啦,到最後就是找不到,然後你這個三個月的期限形同巨文,這樣就不太好了好不好,我現在醜話先說在前面,但執行的時候我們大家都要好好來合作,這樣可以嗎?\n613117\t641526\t對,當然這個就是要給一個壓力啦好,最後一個是草案第6條有一個叫做步行環境調查喔這個定義好像不是很清楚喔這沒關係因為時間有限啦我們這邊就請會後你來做或是我們在討論竹條的時候你要有個非常清楚的闡釋誰來做這個步行環境的調查它的代表性是什麼它的專業性在哪裡它如果有公信力如何跟地方做合作這些都是本期未來會關心的題目希望內政部做好準備要詳細的說明我們一起讓這個政策越來越好可以嗎\n642808\t646747\t好!謝謝!辛苦了!好!謝謝我們牛煦庭委員的執行\n","txt":"交通部內政部部長、交通部處長\n市長你覺得我們最近把整個違罪布局、檢舉機制廢除對行人交通安全的衝擊是什麼?請你簡單說明一下。\n我想跟委員報告一下有關那個違罪布局他其實是他這個整體性上來看的時候是是鑒於說檢舉的事件多了然後祭典的制度也多了以後造成了整個社會上大概有一體兩面的一個的看法\n議員黃煦庭主席\n議員黃捷等16人擬具\n這交通部長同意這樣的說法嗎還是你覺得不會沒有問題我跟委員報告一下檢舉制度並不是所有都是廢除的它原則上是有剛才講的有違罪不舉的那一種對你講的違罪不舉為什麼會影響行人安全我跟兩位說一下也跟委員報告就是違規停車嘛併排停車嘛轉角停車它會被壓縮到行人行走的空間它會對不對\n過去的時候也許個人檢舉 我覺得檢舉達人那是另外一個議題我們可以用法規的方式來排除過量檢舉這件事情可是不表示我們要把一般公平遇到這種狀況的時候一個申訴的機制把它取消掉我認為這是有問題的部長我現在要問你問題了這個過去曾經有一段時間把檢舉機制廢除的時候對於警政的衝擊是什麼可不可以請部長說明一下\n剛剛其實市長已經有說明過其實檢舉機制一直都在並沒有廢除所以只是說交通部之前是把檢舉的範圍跟它的一個項目大量的限縮把它放寬所以在過去的話我們大概我們檢查當然差不多我們自己我們自己的部分因為它有兩部分一個是我們自己警察的這個查查然後第二部分是民眾的這個檢舉\n部長你也清楚我也清楚啦過去那段時間我們在當議員啦所有基層警力的案量暴增啦因為以前民眾可以拍照現在不能拍照這些人很想檢舉檢舉答案怎麼辦瘋狂報警所以變成所有基層警力要跑來當這個交通警察的工作光是處理這件事情造成基層非常大的負擔所以這件事情在這一段時間好像都沒有被討論啦\n我是覺得交通部應該好好思考你如何在這兩者中間取得平衡這方向我同意但是你全面把這些東西都變成違罪不舉的時候會造成交通安全、行人安全以及市容的破壞你也會造成警政單位非常大的執法壓力這件事情你們兩個部會有沒有商量過\n我跟委員報告交通部跟內政部因為在有關在交通安全交通執法上其實是一體的所以我們是有充分的討論有充分的討論至於委員特別提到有關這個違罪不舉或是祭典制度的改變我的了解在交通委員會即將在會有所討論我想藉時我希望好好討論啦我希望行政單位審慎處理啦\n我相信交通部長不會反對我這樣的說法啦。\n還是你覺得這種東西對行人安全沒有任何影響?你要這樣說我也沒有關係。你覺得勒?我想剛才我特別提到的這樣的一個議題或修法即將會在立法院委員之間來做討論。所以我想我們尊重當時討論的一個結果。謝謝。\n我們回到今天的重點,這個行人交通安全的條例草案本席對於這件事情有幾個意見第一個,我們當然樂見內政部或是交通部撥用非常多的預算來提升各式各樣最進步的保障行人安全的設施這一點本席競表同意但是我要提醒,曾經我們在前瞻計畫的時候做過實驗放在哪裡?放在本席的選區歸山,叫做長根新驛站\n那個時候在地方政府執行的時候其實在地方的溝通上面有非常非常大的問題因為很多一般的普羅大眾不見得了解這些設施它的前瞻性、它的進步性跟它的好處以至於在推動的過程中遭受了非常多的地方民意的阻力這些東西都由地方政府承擔我甚至都要講那個時候本席作為桃園的市議員啊我還幫政府做事啊\n我還主動幫他做懶人包去跟我們的選區的選民去做說明為什麼這個工程可以有助於改善行人安全這是我們做的事但是我要提醒部長這些事情不應該是民意代表的工作我們可以協助協調但是提供合理的政策資料讓這個東西的好處跟進步性能夠被彰顯這是行政機關的責任\n但是我看你的草案的說明裡面你有說這個第五條二項有講幾個五個項目但這個項目裡面並沒有民眾的參與公告的程序通知協調會診的機制他是沒有入法的本席希望在修法的過程中把這些東西做一個妥善而且通盤的思考中間是不是應該有個公聽會讓地方的民意也可以了解這個政策的好處跟進步性在哪裡去降低地方啊\n對於這些新設施的阻力跟疑慮。部長是否同意我這樣的看法?\n我想這個在推動計畫裡面其實都有辦法訂進去我是覺得要讓他明確啦這個本身就是地方的基準反應我們這些東西我沒有拿到圖我沒有拿到說明沒有拿到這個東西地方政府恐怕也不一定拿得到你這個東西不能說我中央有一個這樣的方向我撥了錢就把這些責任通通轉嫁給地方既然中央因為你現在也有公民參與的機制有很多好的這個民間的意見進來中央有這個責任啦去做彙整\n拜訪會診之後變成簡單而且人民能夠接受的這些說明也許是圖卡也好也許是文字也好也許是其他的東西也好讓地方政府在配合這個條例修正然後去大膽的去做這些設施的時候去降低地方的阻力部長同意我這樣說法嗎剛剛委員特別提到其實在這個人行環境的本環境的一個改善地方政府非常的重要因為這個是會在推動跟執行面我要講的就是我非常贊成你剛剛\n來自中央給地方的支持除了預算之外啦這些說明這些東西然後他能夠跟越接地氣越好這樣子你推動東西他才不會他才不會變掉是因為當初你推人行道拓寬很多人就講說我不要那麼寬我要留停車位什麼什麼就造成政策的自愛難行\n﹝廣告聲﹞\n議員:「這方面的最初期的一個溝通其實是確保政策成功很重要的一個...沒錯,越早溝通政策成功率越高,最重要跟地方要攜手合作不要說我只撥錢這次就算了好吧所以在條例裡面我們也有相關監督管理的機制第二個這個照片這個大家都是老生常談的啦人行道想要做或者是人行道中間有電線桿有變電箱你的這個草案第8條裡面有講說這些設施遷移有一個期限但是本席在這邊要要求啊\n如果要做啊你現在既然剛剛有講政府議題對不對你這些公家的設施你應該要帶頭做示範啊因為你相對來講主力小嘛遷移的什麼東西的配套要夠完整嘛光是你跟台電溝通這些電感電箱要何去何從請問現在有沒有具體的規劃跟時程\n報告其實在地方政府執行上來講我們這個政策下去其實搭配了相關的管制他也會都受到通知現在就變成說因為實務上來講的確會有一些在執行上你不得不給他壓力因為有可能受限於預算有可能受限於他搬遷地點所以我要給他一點時間的壓力就是說你一定要\n所以你這樣講三個月這個我不反對但問題是三個月的時候公部門容易帶頭執行比如說也許你在三個月裡面你在哪一個區域的電乾電香快速的遷移了我覺得這對整個政策的推動它就有非常好的正面意義嘛你們有這樣子的打算嗎哪裡要先做示範區或怎麼樣\n其實各縣市都有會跟我們提出來他們希望的示範區先開始做我想這過去也有一些成功案例這個部分我們會一定會來去彙整彙整這些資料這本期的選區非常樂意因為我們這裡一大堆電箱電桿要遷移到時候內政部你要全力來協助好不好好我們讓這個東西遷移順利這個就是那個地方政府找能夠幫忙協助找到地方的話遷移的地點的話就來處理我現在就很擔心你這樣回答地方政府找得到的地方的話\n主要就是要找到可替代的這個可以放的點,那找到點的話那他就不替代了你現在就很擔心啦,到最後就是找不到,然後你這個三個月的期限形同巨文,這樣就不太好了好不好,我現在醜話先說在前面,但執行的時候我們大家都要好好來合作,這樣可以嗎?\n對,當然這個就是要給一個壓力啦好,最後一個是草案第6條有一個叫做步行環境調查喔這個定義好像不是很清楚喔這沒關係因為時間有限啦我們這邊就請會後你來做或是我們在討論竹條的時候你要有個非常清楚的闡釋誰來做這個步行環境的調查它的代表性是什麼它的專業性在哪裡它如果有公信力如何跟地方做合作這些都是本期未來會關心的題目希望內政部做好準備要詳細的說明我們一起讓這個政策越來越好可以嗎\n好!謝謝!辛苦了!好!謝謝我們牛煦庭委員的執行\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.049 --> 00:01.430\n交通部內政部部長、交通部處長\n\n00:26.533 --> 00:30.899\n市長你覺得我們最近把整個違罪布局、檢舉機制廢除對行人交通安全的衝擊是什麼?請你簡單說明一下。\n\n00:42.850 --> 01:04.831\n我想跟委員報告一下有關那個違罪布局他其實是他這個整體性上來看的時候是是鑒於說檢舉的事件多了然後祭典的制度也多了以後造成了整個社會上大概有一體兩面的一個的看法\n\n01:05.171 --> 01:05.351\n議員黃煦庭主席\n\n01:21.781 --> 01:22.061\n議員黃捷等16人擬具\n\n01:41.676 --> 02:04.896\n這交通部長同意這樣的說法嗎還是你覺得不會沒有問題我跟委員報告一下檢舉制度並不是所有都是廢除的它原則上是有剛才講的有違罪不舉的那一種對你講的違罪不舉為什麼會影響行人安全我跟兩位說一下也跟委員報告就是違規停車嘛併排停車嘛轉角停車它會被壓縮到行人行走的空間它會對不對\n\n02:06.117 --> 02:29.592\n過去的時候也許個人檢舉我覺得檢舉達人那是另外一個議題我們可以用法規的方式來排除過量檢舉這件事情可是不表示我們要把一般公平遇到這種狀況的時候一個申訴的機制把它取消掉我認為這是有問題的部長我現在要問你問題了這個過去曾經有一段時間把檢舉機制廢除的時候對於警政的衝擊是什麼可不可以請部長說明一下\n\n02:33.233 --> 02:59.189\n剛剛其實市長已經有說明過其實檢舉機制一直都在並沒有廢除所以只是說交通部之前是把檢舉的範圍跟它的一個項目大量的限縮把它放寬所以在過去的話我們大概我們檢查當然差不多我們自己我們自己的部分因為它有兩部分一個是我們自己警察的這個查查然後第二部分是民眾的這個檢舉\n\n03:00.550 --> 03:24.844\n部長你也清楚我也清楚啦過去那段時間我們在當議員啦所有基層警力的案量暴增啦因為以前民眾可以拍照現在不能拍照這些人很想檢舉檢舉答案怎麼辦瘋狂報警所以變成所有基層警力要跑來當這個交通警察的工作光是處理這件事情造成基層非常大的負擔所以這件事情在這一段時間好像都沒有被討論啦\n\n03:25.945 --> 03:42.832\n我是覺得交通部應該好好思考你如何在這兩者中間取得平衡這方向我同意但是你全面把這些東西都變成違罪不舉的時候會造成交通安全、行人安全以及市容的破壞你也會造成警政單位非常大的執法壓力這件事情你們兩個部會有沒有商量過\n\n03:47.494 --> 04:11.691\n我跟委員報告交通部跟內政部因為在有關在交通安全交通執法上其實是一體的所以我們是有充分的討論有充分的討論至於委員特別提到有關這個違罪不舉或是祭典制度的改變我的了解在交通委員會即將在會有所討論我想藉時我希望好好討論啦我希望行政單位審慎處理啦\n\n04:12.892 --> 04:13.652\n我相信交通部長不會反對我這樣的說法啦。\n\n04:31.121 --> 04:44.681\n還是你覺得這種東西對行人安全沒有任何影響?你要這樣說我也沒有關係。你覺得勒?我想剛才我特別提到的這樣的一個議題或修法即將會在立法院委員之間來做討論。所以我想我們尊重當時討論的一個結果。謝謝。\n\n04:48.193 --> 05:12.469\n我們回到今天的重點,這個行人交通安全的條例草案本席對於這件事情有幾個意見第一個,我們當然樂見內政部或是交通部撥用非常多的預算來提升各式各樣最進步的保障行人安全的設施這一點本席競表同意但是我要提醒,曾經我們在前瞻計畫的時候做過實驗放在哪裡?放在本席的選區歸山,叫做長根新驛站\n\n05:13.510 --> 05:36.543\n那個時候在地方政府執行的時候其實在地方的溝通上面有非常非常大的問題因為很多一般的普羅大眾不見得了解這些設施它的前瞻性、它的進步性跟它的好處以至於在推動的過程中遭受了非常多的地方民意的阻力這些東西都由地方政府承擔我甚至都要講那個時候本席作為桃園的市議員啊我還幫政府做事啊\n\n05:36.923 --> 05:53.768\n我還主動幫他做懶人包去跟我們的選區的選民去做說明為什麼這個工程可以有助於改善行人安全這是我們做的事但是我要提醒部長這些事情不應該是民意代表的工作我們可以協助協調但是提供合理的政策資料讓這個東西的好處跟進步性能夠被彰顯這是行政機關的責任\n\n05:56.869 --> 06:23.495\n但是我看你的草案的說明裡面你有說這個第五條二項有講幾個五個項目但這個項目裡面並沒有民眾的參與公告的程序通知協調會診的機制他是沒有入法的本席希望在修法的過程中把這些東西做一個妥善而且通盤的思考中間是不是應該有個公聽會讓地方的民意也可以了解這個政策的好處跟進步性在哪裡去降低地方啊\n\n06:23.795 --> 06:27.221\n對於這些新設施的阻力跟疑慮。部長是否同意我這樣的看法?\n\n06:28.021 --> 06:53.436\n我想這個在推動計畫裡面其實都有辦法訂進去我是覺得要讓他明確啦這個本身就是地方的基準反應我們這些東西我沒有拿到圖我沒有拿到說明沒有拿到這個東西地方政府恐怕也不一定拿得到你這個東西不能說我中央有一個這樣的方向我撥了錢就把這些責任通通轉嫁給地方既然中央因為你現在也有公民參與的機制有很多好的這個民間的意見進來中央有這個責任啦去做彙整\n\n06:53.996 --> 07:18.133\n拜訪會診之後變成簡單而且人民能夠接受的這些說明也許是圖卡也好也許是文字也好也許是其他的東西也好讓地方政府在配合這個條例修正然後去大膽的去做這些設施的時候去降低地方的阻力部長同意我這樣說法嗎剛剛委員特別提到其實在這個人行環境的本環境的一個改善地方政府非常的重要因為這個是會在推動跟執行面我要講的就是我非常贊成你剛剛\n\n07:19.393 --> 07:34.540\n來自中央給地方的支持除了預算之外啦這些說明這些東西然後他能夠跟越接地氣越好這樣子你推動東西他才不會他才不會變掉是因為當初你推人行道拓寬很多人就講說我不要那麼寬我要留停車位什麼什麼就造成政策的自愛難行\n\n07:35.120 --> 07:35.140\n﹝廣告聲﹞\n\n07:52.555 --> 08:21.409\n議員:「這方面的最初期的一個溝通其實是確保政策成功很重要的一個...沒錯,越早溝通政策成功率越高,最重要跟地方要攜手合作不要說我只撥錢這次就算了好吧所以在條例裡面我們也有相關監督管理的機制第二個這個照片這個大家都是老生常談的啦人行道想要做或者是人行道中間有電線桿有變電箱你的這個草案第8條裡面有講說這些設施遷移有一個期限但是本席在這邊要要求啊\n\n08:21.849 --> 08:37.550\n如果要做啊你現在既然剛剛有講政府議題對不對你這些公家的設施你應該要帶頭做示範啊因為你相對來講主力小嘛遷移的什麼東西的配套要夠完整嘛光是你跟台電溝通這些電感電箱要何去何從請問現在有沒有具體的規劃跟時程\n\n08:41.758 --> 09:03.237\n報告其實在地方政府執行上來講我們這個政策下去其實搭配了相關的管制他也會都受到通知現在就變成說因為實務上來講的確會有一些在執行上你不得不給他壓力因為有可能受限於預算有可能受限於他搬遷地點所以我要給他一點時間的壓力就是說你一定要\n\n09:04.668 --> 09:20.880\n所以你這樣講三個月這個我不反對但問題是三個月的時候公部門容易帶頭執行比如說也許你在三個月裡面你在哪一個區域的電乾電香快速的遷移了我覺得這對整個政策的推動它就有非常好的正面意義嘛你們有這樣子的打算嗎哪裡要先做示範區或怎麼樣\n\n09:21.841 --> 09:50.865\n其實各縣市都有會跟我們提出來他們希望的示範區先開始做我想這過去也有一些成功案例這個部分我們會一定會來去彙整彙整這些資料這本期的選區非常樂意因為我們這裡一大堆電箱電桿要遷移到時候內政部你要全力來協助好不好好我們讓這個東西遷移順利這個就是那個地方政府找能夠幫忙協助找到地方的話遷移的地點的話就來處理我現在就很擔心你這樣回答地方政府找得到的地方的話\n\n09:55.807 --> 10:12.297\n主要就是要找到可替代的這個可以放的點,那找到點的話那他就不替代了你現在就很擔心啦,到最後就是找不到,然後你這個三個月的期限形同巨文,這樣就不太好了好不好,我現在醜話先說在前面,但執行的時候我們大家都要好好來合作,這樣可以嗎?\n\n10:13.117 --> 10:41.526\n對,當然這個就是要給一個壓力啦好,最後一個是草案第6條有一個叫做步行環境調查喔這個定義好像不是很清楚喔這沒關係因為時間有限啦我們這邊就請會後你來做或是我們在討論竹條的時候你要有個非常清楚的闡釋誰來做這個步行環境的調查它的代表性是什麼它的專業性在哪裡它如果有公信力如何跟地方做合作這些都是本期未來會關心的題目希望內政部做好準備要詳細的說明我們一起讓這個政策越來越好可以嗎\n\n10:42.808 --> 10:46.747\n好!謝謝!辛苦了!好!謝謝我們牛煦庭委員的執行\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.049,"end":1.43,"text":"交通部內政部部長、交通部處長"},{"start":26.533,"end":30.899,"text":"市長你覺得我們最近把整個違罪布局、檢舉機制廢除對行人交通安全的衝擊是什麼?請你簡單說明一下。"},{"start":42.85,"end":64.831,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下有關那個違罪布局他其實是他這個整體性上來看的時候是是鑒於說檢舉的事件多了然後祭典的制度也多了以後造成了整個社會上大概有一體兩面的一個的看法"},{"start":65.171,"end":65.351,"text":"議員黃煦庭主席"},{"start":81.781,"end":82.061,"text":"議員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":101.676,"end":124.896,"text":"這交通部長同意這樣的說法嗎還是你覺得不會沒有問題我跟委員報告一下檢舉制度並不是所有都是廢除的它原則上是有剛才講的有違罪不舉的那一種對你講的違罪不舉為什麼會影響行人安全我跟兩位說一下也跟委員報告就是違規停車嘛併排停車嘛轉角停車它會被壓縮到行人行走的空間它會對不對"},{"start":126.117,"end":149.592,"text":"過去的時候也許個人檢舉 我覺得檢舉達人那是另外一個議題我們可以用法規的方式來排除過量檢舉這件事情可是不表示我們要把一般公平遇到這種狀況的時候一個申訴的機制把它取消掉我認為這是有問題的部長我現在要問你問題了這個過去曾經有一段時間把檢舉機制廢除的時候對於警政的衝擊是什麼可不可以請部長說明一下"},{"start":153.233,"end":179.189,"text":"剛剛其實市長已經有說明過其實檢舉機制一直都在並沒有廢除所以只是說交通部之前是把檢舉的範圍跟它的一個項目大量的限縮把它放寬所以在過去的話我們大概我們檢查當然差不多我們自己我們自己的部分因為它有兩部分一個是我們自己警察的這個查查然後第二部分是民眾的這個檢舉"},{"start":180.55,"end":204.844,"text":"部長你也清楚我也清楚啦過去那段時間我們在當議員啦所有基層警力的案量暴增啦因為以前民眾可以拍照現在不能拍照這些人很想檢舉檢舉答案怎麼辦瘋狂報警所以變成所有基層警力要跑來當這個交通警察的工作光是處理這件事情造成基層非常大的負擔所以這件事情在這一段時間好像都沒有被討論啦"},{"start":205.945,"end":222.832,"text":"我是覺得交通部應該好好思考你如何在這兩者中間取得平衡這方向我同意但是你全面把這些東西都變成違罪不舉的時候會造成交通安全、行人安全以及市容的破壞你也會造成警政單位非常大的執法壓力這件事情你們兩個部會有沒有商量過"},{"start":227.494,"end":251.691,"text":"我跟委員報告交通部跟內政部因為在有關在交通安全交通執法上其實是一體的所以我們是有充分的討論有充分的討論至於委員特別提到有關這個違罪不舉或是祭典制度的改變我的了解在交通委員會即將在會有所討論我想藉時我希望好好討論啦我希望行政單位審慎處理啦"},{"start":252.892,"end":253.652,"text":"我相信交通部長不會反對我這樣的說法啦。"},{"start":271.121,"end":284.681,"text":"還是你覺得這種東西對行人安全沒有任何影響?你要這樣說我也沒有關係。你覺得勒?我想剛才我特別提到的這樣的一個議題或修法即將會在立法院委員之間來做討論。所以我想我們尊重當時討論的一個結果。謝謝。"},{"start":288.193,"end":312.469,"text":"我們回到今天的重點,這個行人交通安全的條例草案本席對於這件事情有幾個意見第一個,我們當然樂見內政部或是交通部撥用非常多的預算來提升各式各樣最進步的保障行人安全的設施這一點本席競表同意但是我要提醒,曾經我們在前瞻計畫的時候做過實驗放在哪裡?放在本席的選區歸山,叫做長根新驛站"},{"start":313.51,"end":336.543,"text":"那個時候在地方政府執行的時候其實在地方的溝通上面有非常非常大的問題因為很多一般的普羅大眾不見得了解這些設施它的前瞻性、它的進步性跟它的好處以至於在推動的過程中遭受了非常多的地方民意的阻力這些東西都由地方政府承擔我甚至都要講那個時候本席作為桃園的市議員啊我還幫政府做事啊"},{"start":336.923,"end":353.768,"text":"我還主動幫他做懶人包去跟我們的選區的選民去做說明為什麼這個工程可以有助於改善行人安全這是我們做的事但是我要提醒部長這些事情不應該是民意代表的工作我們可以協助協調但是提供合理的政策資料讓這個東西的好處跟進步性能夠被彰顯這是行政機關的責任"},{"start":356.869,"end":383.495,"text":"但是我看你的草案的說明裡面你有說這個第五條二項有講幾個五個項目但這個項目裡面並沒有民眾的參與公告的程序通知協調會診的機制他是沒有入法的本席希望在修法的過程中把這些東西做一個妥善而且通盤的思考中間是不是應該有個公聽會讓地方的民意也可以了解這個政策的好處跟進步性在哪裡去降低地方啊"},{"start":383.795,"end":387.221,"text":"對於這些新設施的阻力跟疑慮。部長是否同意我這樣的看法?"},{"start":388.021,"end":413.436,"text":"我想這個在推動計畫裡面其實都有辦法訂進去我是覺得要讓他明確啦這個本身就是地方的基準反應我們這些東西我沒有拿到圖我沒有拿到說明沒有拿到這個東西地方政府恐怕也不一定拿得到你這個東西不能說我中央有一個這樣的方向我撥了錢就把這些責任通通轉嫁給地方既然中央因為你現在也有公民參與的機制有很多好的這個民間的意見進來中央有這個責任啦去做彙整"},{"start":413.996,"end":438.133,"text":"拜訪會診之後變成簡單而且人民能夠接受的這些說明也許是圖卡也好也許是文字也好也許是其他的東西也好讓地方政府在配合這個條例修正然後去大膽的去做這些設施的時候去降低地方的阻力部長同意我這樣說法嗎剛剛委員特別提到其實在這個人行環境的本環境的一個改善地方政府非常的重要因為這個是會在推動跟執行面我要講的就是我非常贊成你剛剛"},{"start":439.393,"end":454.54,"text":"來自中央給地方的支持除了預算之外啦這些說明這些東西然後他能夠跟越接地氣越好這樣子你推動東西他才不會他才不會變掉是因為當初你推人行道拓寬很多人就講說我不要那麼寬我要留停車位什麼什麼就造成政策的自愛難行"},{"start":455.12,"end":455.14,"text":" ﹝廣告聲﹞"},{"start":472.555,"end":501.409,"text":"議員:「這方面的最初期的一個溝通其實是確保政策成功很重要的一個...沒錯,越早溝通政策成功率越高,最重要跟地方要攜手合作不要說我只撥錢這次就算了好吧所以在條例裡面我們也有相關監督管理的機制第二個這個照片這個大家都是老生常談的啦人行道想要做或者是人行道中間有電線桿有變電箱你的這個草案第8條裡面有講說這些設施遷移有一個期限但是本席在這邊要要求啊"},{"start":501.849,"end":517.55,"text":"如果要做啊你現在既然剛剛有講政府議題對不對你這些公家的設施你應該要帶頭做示範啊因為你相對來講主力小嘛遷移的什麼東西的配套要夠完整嘛光是你跟台電溝通這些電感電箱要何去何從請問現在有沒有具體的規劃跟時程"},{"start":521.758,"end":543.237,"text":"報告其實在地方政府執行上來講我們這個政策下去其實搭配了相關的管制他也會都受到通知現在就變成說因為實務上來講的確會有一些在執行上你不得不給他壓力因為有可能受限於預算有可能受限於他搬遷地點所以我要給他一點時間的壓力就是說你一定要"},{"start":544.668,"end":560.88,"text":"所以你這樣講三個月這個我不反對但問題是三個月的時候公部門容易帶頭執行比如說也許你在三個月裡面你在哪一個區域的電乾電香快速的遷移了我覺得這對整個政策的推動它就有非常好的正面意義嘛你們有這樣子的打算嗎哪裡要先做示範區或怎麼樣"},{"start":561.841,"end":590.865,"text":"其實各縣市都有會跟我們提出來他們希望的示範區先開始做我想這過去也有一些成功案例這個部分我們會一定會來去彙整彙整這些資料這本期的選區非常樂意因為我們這裡一大堆電箱電桿要遷移到時候內政部你要全力來協助好不好好我們讓這個東西遷移順利這個就是那個地方政府找能夠幫忙協助找到地方的話遷移的地點的話就來處理我現在就很擔心你這樣回答地方政府找得到的地方的話"},{"start":595.807,"end":612.297,"text":"主要就是要找到可替代的這個可以放的點,那找到點的話那他就不替代了你現在就很擔心啦,到最後就是找不到,然後你這個三個月的期限形同巨文,這樣就不太好了好不好,我現在醜話先說在前面,但執行的時候我們大家都要好好來合作,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":613.117,"end":641.526,"text":"對,當然這個就是要給一個壓力啦好,最後一個是草案第6條有一個叫做步行環境調查喔這個定義好像不是很清楚喔這沒關係因為時間有限啦我們這邊就請會後你來做或是我們在討論竹條的時候你要有個非常清楚的闡釋誰來做這個步行環境的調查它的代表性是什麼它的專業性在哪裡它如果有公信力如何跟地方做合作這些都是本期未來會關心的題目希望內政部做好準備要詳細的說明我們一起讓這個政策越來越好可以嗎"},{"start":642.808,"end":646.747,"text":"好!謝謝!辛苦了!好!謝謝我們牛煦庭委員的執行"}]}}}}