{"id":150470,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150470","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d582cb464d4d1b22bef9597c3f3f044368f8ba9b0039caa7a6bdb27c7f107e01055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:24:52 - 10:36:00","影片長度":"00:11:08","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-9"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":668,"end_time":"2024-03-27T10:36:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T10:24:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":381,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時24分）謝謝主席。有請部長、中科院院長及國土辦的主任，謝謝。"],["主席：三位請。"],["邱部長國正：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。很高興今天有很多委員，包括王委員、徐委員都有關心這一個心輔的制度，所以我今天在這邊就是比較專注在還是跟無人機相關的議題上。現在我在看臺灣無人機的發展，我看到在一個報告裡面有指出，說有借鏡烏俄戰爭的經驗，去年的7月、8月我人在烏克蘭，我有去看他們無人機的組裝，但因為他們現在有很多零件是沒有辦法取得，所以他們在組裝上面也發生很多困難。所以很高興在這個報告裡面有看到說有借鏡烏俄戰爭的發展。","現在我看到幾個比較困境的地方是中科院的一個角色，第一個，這一次在報告裡面有提到，我們的無人機有所謂各式各樣不同的層級，這些都在報告裡面，我想問的是最主要是右邊的第二個問題：現在中科院委製的「戰術」近程無人飛行的載具，它適用的情境、當時它預想的狀況為何？在報告裡面有提到，有可能是為了要針對海上的目標，或者為了要蒐集情報，是不是可以把這個需求先說明一下？"],["邱部長國正：我請中科院來講。"],["張院長忠誠：委員好。我是中科院院長，當初這個近程戰術無人飛行載具，這是陸軍的需求，我們主要是適用於在城鎮跟濱海的作戰，它的距離大概是30公里、一個小時，大概以這個城鎮為戰術層級的武器，大概是這個樣子。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。因為我現在看到整個狀況，譬如說陸軍，因為現在各軍都有提出需求，我看無人機現在要求的可能就有五、六種，提出需求之後，中科院可能就會委製，然後可能就會有民間廠商。因為前陣子監察院有講到中科院委製無人機採購案不公的一個狀況，我沒有想要去講這裡面的內容，因為你們應該都已經知道了，所以這個不是很重要。我現在覺得比較有趣的一個地方就在於，它裡面有提到這些評選的委員，委員裡面有六位是中科院的，三位是陸軍的士官，一位是外聘的學者專家，但是因為提出需求的，譬如說提出需求的是陸軍，今天提出需求的單位，他有沒有在這一個評選委員裡面？今天提出需求的人，他知不知道今天廠商所交出來的這個，給中科院的這一個無人機載具，它到底有沒有符合陸軍想要得到的需求？這件事情是要怎麼去確保？"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，當初監察院也是針對評選人員的一個界定有提出意見來，我們也改了，譬如說一定為什麼陸軍或哪一個什麼士官，這部分我們也把它拿掉了，一定是跟專業有關。但外聘人員的來源都要經過一個委員會，它是在國科會或公共工程委員會裡面，委員會裡面都是專業人員，我們從裡面來抓取。裡面規定的條件必須要很清楚，我給他做說明後才做評選，這樣的話，我們不會就變成通通都是軍方的人在裡面掌握，這個問題我們也避免掉了。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。現在如果我們今天在評選的過程當中，能夠讓需求方更能夠知道，今天提出來的無人機載具是否能夠符合需求，當然是好事，但因為我們現在看到的狀況，我個人認為有一點疊床架屋，第一個，我們的各軍種可能提出了需求，然後提出需求之後，中科院會開規格，中科院開了規格之後，這些廠商就是根據這些規格去製造這些載具，但問題是在於，為什麼今天軍種不直接對到廠商？因為有時候我覺得中科院這樣反而……因為在監察院這個報告裡面，我就覺得中科院「公親變事主」，因為中科院今天理解的並不是需求方，他理解的是規格，他把規格開得很好，然後去把規格交給各廠商，所以廠商會去符合這樣的一個規格，然後去做製造。所以我就去參照了一些美國的經驗，這個我就先跳過，因為這是演習的需求，就是我看到美國他們是提出了需求之後，它不是直接提規格，然後各廠商就提出了各式各樣為了因應這個作戰需求的方案，譬如說今天這個作戰需求是要針對海上目標，或今天這個需求是像剛剛有提到的，可能是在城鎮裡面要做使用，當它把需求提出來之後，廠商就開始不斷地去提出他們的解決方案，然後中間就會有各式各樣的測試。我看到他們的測試，其實他們的評估人員就直接是戰鬥人員，也不是武器的評估幕僚，這個戰鬥人員去做測試的時候，他可能就會發現說，這邊哪裡完全不符合我們的需求，是不是請廠商可以再多做一點？我現在發現我國的採購狀況有時候會變成廠商是要先去符合規格，但廠商有可能會發現這個規格到底有沒有符合當時陸軍或海軍提出來的那個想定、提出來的那一個需求，但他又不敢僭越，因為中科院其實已經把規格訂好給他了，對他們來講，他們就是把規格做好就好，但他如果有想到其他他想做的事情時，那該如何？變成中間溝通的那個管道，有時候會因為中科院必須要坐在那一個位置，中科院也必須要把規格開好，像這種直接把需求提出來讓廠商參加，這樣的可能性有沒有呢？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們不管採購也好或建案也好，它一定有個程序的，因為一開頭如果不講規格，它到某個地步、某個程序，它就要講規格，所以我們的建案有三個程序，第一個，我依據什麼任務，我要做什麼案，提出任務要求的人他也不知道規格，但到了投綱的階段，他就要把規格講出來，甚至於到總供，就是裡面的品項要更清楚，這是一步一步來的。所以你講說要借鏡美國的第一線人員，但不管怎麼樣，你完成以後，測試是一定要嚴格測試的，所以我們國家不管是經過中科院來統一掌握或各軍種來建案，這個最後用的單位，他們一定要參與測試，因為最後是他們要用嘛，所以我們講這個程序絕對照著走。但是按照委員這樣講的話，美國的作法的確很好，事實上，它在某個層級裡面，可能你沒有看到它前面依據它的任務需求，或者最後它怎麼樣來去驗收，這跟我們最後都會符合在一道的，我們也是因為有層級之不同，所以早晚一定要經過這個步驟，才能夠符合我們建案，跟我們獲得軍品也好，或任何武器裝備能夠運用到部隊裡面，針對用的單位可以滿足它。"],["沈委員伯洋：我提出這部分其實滿大的一個原因是因為我們看到中科院在量能上壓力越來越大，就是因為中科院要負責做很多的研發工作，然後它又要接很多的案子，所以變成今天在無人機的這一個狀況，有時候它是在中間，像我們在這個報告裡面有提到，第一個它可能要去跟經濟部等等的，或是去跟國發會來做合作，因為我們有很多的廠商在裡面。那它一方面也要在跟國防部一起來做比較新型的一些研發，所以在量能上面，我們就一直覺得說是不是可以解放中科院的量能？然後也不會造成像之前監察院報告提到的，它只要一個規格不符合，就說這個會不會是一個採購的弊案或什麼等等之類的，所以這就是……"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員簡單做說明，每個層級它有不同的工作，像剛剛講說中科院又要建案，又要跟其他部會協調，沒有這樣子，該要跟其他部會協調、該國防部出面的我們是一定要出面的，我們一系列做的，每個層級不一樣，各做各的，分工不同。至於軍種他想要建案，如果可以在中科院納入，他們說這個東西本來他們也在做，甚至做了一半了，將建案搭配在裡面，這很自然嘛，就為了讓裝備各方面能夠達到一致性，不要分門別類，各搞各的，反而變成一個問題。只要在工作運作當中發覺的問題，我們絕對全面檢討，不會丟給軍種要他們自己去檢討，然後跟中科院無關。中科院有關的，就跟國防部有關，跟國防部有關的話，我們自然會透過管道跟其他部會來共同協調處理解決。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為這個對我們來講，比較像是一個偏制度性的問題。"],["邱部長國正：是，它是制度性的問題。"],["沈委員伯洋：假設今天中科院在中間的話，因為它必須要去瞭解今天實際的作戰需求，然後它又要往下理解規格，像剛剛前面有提到那一個陸軍的那個水氣或什麼等等之類的。對廠商來說，如果是這一個無人機它要怎麼做保養，又或者它今天要怎麼做維護，這個東西照理說，它也不用再給中科院，然後再給軍種，其實廠商可以直接對軍種，就直接對，譬如說對陸軍、對海軍，然後這個時候它可以很輕鬆、很快的就知道它要怎麼做維護，然後要怎麼做保養，我覺得這可能是比較快速的一個方式。但因為這牽涉到非常整體的且涉及到整個中科院的定位，所以在這邊因為還有一點時間，我想先問一下國土辦，很快速的，因為這是一個很小的問題，目前來講，不是說我們用無人機，然後我們在這個CI裡面會使用這個干擾槍來反制無人機，我只提兩個很簡單的問題。第一個就是因為像這樣的一個干擾槍，它必須對準，對不對？還是要瞄準。第一個就是偵測方面，現在的進度如何？這是第一個。第二個，因為會有單位會問說，他們的法源呢？畢竟現在干擾槍是要放在他們那一邊，有沒有適切的法源？可以讓他們知道一下。"],["林主任傑：謝謝委員。國土辦回應，有關偵測系統的部分，目前大概是用區域聯防的方式，因為無人機如果起飛或者是遙控，都有相關的射頻訊號可以偵知，所以每個CI會依照它的特性、它的範圍去建置相對應的偵測系統，如果它本身的量體比較小，當然就透過區域聯防。另外，有關法源的部分，民用航空法本來就有設施單位者驅離非法無人機進來紅區這樣的法源，所以他們是可以操作的。此外，我們講的干擾，有些時候應該是用干擾器比較適當，因為它其實是射頻元件，並不是干擾槍，跟警方或軍方使用槍是完全不同的東西，而是一個干擾器，所以在法源上面也都沒有問題。我們會跟各個部會做相關的說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：感謝，就再跟各個CI講一下法源的部分，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一個委員進行詢答之前，我先宣告。本席宣告目前有收到臨時提案一案，因為現在時間是10點36分，就不再收案。待會兒在本會委員陳冠廷詢答結束後，我們會處理這個臨時提案，處理完畢之後，休息5分鐘。","現在進行詢答的是洪申翰委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","洪申翰","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","林德福","羅智強","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","張啓楷","王鴻薇"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1132001_00016"}},"transcript":{"id":"150470","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150470","tool":"pyannote","id":"150470-pyannote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\"end\": 241.092, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 244.396, \"end\": 270.732, \"text\": \"問題是在於說那為什麼今天軍種不直接對到廠商因為我說覺得中科院這樣反而因為像今天廠院這個報告裡面我就覺得中科院很重工輕便事主因為中科院他今天理解的並不是需求方他理解的是規格他把規格開得很好然後去把規格交給這一個各廠商所以廠商去符合這樣的一個規格然後去做製造那所以我就去參照了一些美國的經驗就是這個我就先跳過因為這是演習的需求就是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 244.396, \"end\": 244.516, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 244.516, \"end\": 244.636, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 244.636, \"end\": 244.997, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 244.997, \"end\": 245.317, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 245.317, \"end\": 245.517, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 245.517, \"end\": 245.617, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 245.617, \"end\": 246.217, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 246.217, \"end\": 246.377, \"score\": 1.0}, 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\"我看到美國他們是提出了需求之後他不是直接提規格然後各廠商他就提出了各式各樣為人因應這個作戰需求的方案比如說今天這個作戰需求是要針對海上目標今天這個需求像剛有提到的可能是在城鎮裡面要做使用那把需求提出來之後廠商就開始不斷的去提出他們的解決方案然後中間就會有各式各樣的測試那我看到他們的測試其實他們的評估人員就直接是戰鬥人員也不是武器的這個評估的幕僚\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 271.252, \"end\": 271.352, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 271.352, \"end\": 271.472, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 271.472, \"end\": 271.592, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 271.592, \"end\": 271.853, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 271.853, \"end\": 272.073, \"score\": 0.616}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 272.073, \"end\": 272.493, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 272.493, \"end\": 272.673, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 272.673, \"end\": 272.813, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 272.813, \"end\": 272.933, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 272.933, \"end\": 273.134, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"求\", 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{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 296.152, \"end\": 296.332, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 296.332, \"end\": 296.633, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 296.633, \"end\": 296.773, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 296.773, \"end\": 297.033, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 297.033, \"end\": 297.213, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 297.213, \"end\": 297.353, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 297.353, \"end\": 297.533, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 297.533, \"end\": 298.114, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"鬥\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 298.114, \"end\": 298.714, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 298.714, \"end\": 298.874, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 298.874, \"end\": 298.994, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 298.994, \"end\": 299.155, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"武\", \"start\": 299.155, \"end\": 299.315, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"器\", \"start\": 299.315, \"end\": 299.455, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 299.455, \"end\": 300.075, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 300.075, \"end\": 300.195, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 300.195, \"end\": 300.316, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"幕\", \"start\": 300.316, \"end\": 300.336, \"score\": 0.026}, {\"word\": \"僚\"}]}, {\"start\": 301.016, \"end\": 326.969, \"text\": \"那這個戰鬥人員去做測試的時候他可能就會發現說這邊哪裡完全不符合我們的需求是不是請廠商可以再多做一點那我現在發現我國的一個採購狀況有時候會變成說廠商是要先去符合規格但廠商有可能會發現這個規格到底有沒有符合當時陸軍或海軍提出來的那個想定提出來的那一個需求但他又不敢僭越因為中科院其實已經把規格訂好給他了那對他們來講他們就是把規格做好就好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 301.016, \"end\": 301.536, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"鬥\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 301.536, \"end\": 301.716, \"score\": 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\"start\": 666.07, \"end\": 666.21, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 666.21, \"end\": 666.611, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 666.611, \"end\": 666.731, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 666.731, \"end\": 666.751, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,783 --> 00:00:01,245\n有請部長、中科院院長及國土辦主任\n\n2\n00:00:21,179 --> 00:00:23,420\n臺灣無人機發展報告指出有接近\n\n3\n00:00:39,186 --> 00:00:39,367\n沈伯洋議員\n\n4\n00:00:53,923 --> 00:01:22,625\n所以很高興可以看到在這個報告裡面可以看到就是說有接近這一個烏鴉戰爭的發展那現在我看到的幾個比較困境的地方是中科院的一個角色第一個就是呢這一次在報告裡面有提到說我們這個無人機有這個所謂各式各樣不同的層級這都在報告裡面那我想問的這個最主要是右邊的第二個問題就是說現在中科院委制的這個戰術戰術進程無人飛行的載具它的這個適用的情境當時它預想的狀況為何\n\n5\n00:01:24,026 --> 00:01:34,857\n在報告裡面有提到有可能是為了要針對這個海上的目標或者為了要蒐集這個情報是不是可以把這個需求是不是可以先說明一下在中國院來講\n\n6\n00:01:36,363 --> 00:01:58,474\n委員好我是沈副院院長當初這個近程戰術無人飛行載具這是陸軍的需求我們主要是適用於在城鎮跟濱海作戰它的距離大概是30公里這個一個小時大概以這個城鎮來為戰術層級的武器大概是這個樣子\n\n7\n00:01:59,375 --> 00:02:12,287\n好謝謝那因為我現在看到整個這個狀況就是說看到譬如說陸軍因為現在各軍都有提出這個需求嘛我看無人機現在要求的這個可能有五六種那提出了需求之後呢中科院可能就會委制然後可能就會有民間廠商那因為\n\n8\n00:02:14,008 --> 00:02:32,241\n在前陣子這個監察院有講到這個中科院偽製無人機採購案不公的一個狀況我沒有想要去講這個裡面的內容因為這個你們應該都已經知道了所以這個不是很重要我現在比較覺得有趣的一個地方就在於說他裡面有提到這些評選的委員嘛那委員裡面有六位是中科院的\n\n9\n00:02:32,481 --> 00:02:56,002\n那三位是陸軍的士官,一位是外聘的學者專家那但是因為提出需求的,譬如說他提出需求的是陸軍那今天提出需求的單位他有沒有在這一個評選委員裡面比如說他們今天需求的人他知不知道今天廠商所交出來的這個給中科院的這一個無人機載具他到底有沒有符合陸軍想要得到的需求這件事情是要怎麼去確保\n\n10\n00:02:56,926 --> 00:03:18,923\n我跟委員報告,當初加拿大也是針對人員、評選人員的一個界定提出意見來,我們也改了,譬如說一定為陸軍或哪一個士官,我們也馬拿掉,一定是跟專業有關但外聘人員來源,經過委員會、國科還哪一邊,公共委員會裡面的專業人員,我們從裡面來抓取\n\n11\n00:03:26,188 --> 00:03:31,070\n現在如果說我們今天在評選的這個過程當中能夠讓需求方能夠更能夠知道說今天提出來的無人機載具能不能符合需求當然是好事\n\n12\n00:03:48,476 --> 00:04:01,092\n但因為我們現在看到的狀況有一點我個人認為有點跌窗架屋就是第一個我們的各軍種可能提出了需求然後提出了需求之後呢中科院會開規格嘛那中科院開了規格之後呢這些廠商就是根據這些規格去製造這些載具但\n\n13\n00:04:04,396 --> 00:04:30,732\n問題是在於說那為什麼今天軍種不直接對到廠商因為我說覺得中科院這樣反而因為像今天廠院這個報告裡面我就覺得中科院很重工輕便事主因為中科院他今天理解的並不是需求方他理解的是規格他把規格開得很好然後去把規格交給這一個各廠商所以廠商去符合這樣的一個規格然後去做製造那所以我就去參照了一些美國的經驗就是這個我就先跳過因為這是演習的需求就是\n\n14\n00:04:31,252 --> 00:05:00,336\n我看到美國他們是提出了需求之後他不是直接提規格然後各廠商他就提出了各式各樣為人因應這個作戰需求的方案比如說今天這個作戰需求是要針對海上目標今天這個需求像剛有提到的可能是在城鎮裡面要做使用那把需求提出來之後廠商就開始不斷的去提出他們的解決方案然後中間就會有各式各樣的測試那我看到他們的測試其實他們的評估人員就直接是戰鬥人員也不是武器的這個評估的幕僚\n\n15\n00:05:01,016 --> 00:05:26,969\n那這個戰鬥人員去做測試的時候他可能就會發現說這邊哪裡完全不符合我們的需求是不是請廠商可以再多做一點那我現在發現我國的一個採購狀況有時候會變成說廠商是要先去符合規格但廠商有可能會發現這個規格到底有沒有符合當時陸軍或海軍提出來的那個想定提出來的那一個需求但他又不敢僭越因為中科院其實已經把規格訂好給他了那對他們來講他們就是把規格做好就好\n\n16\n00:05:27,369 --> 00:05:43,167\n但他如果沒有想到其他他想做的事情的時候那該如何變成中間那個溝通的那個管道有時候會因為因為中科院必須要坐在那一個位置那中科院也必須要把規格開好那像這種直接把需求提出來讓廠商參加這樣的可能性有沒有呢\n\n17\n00:05:44,056 --> 00:06:02,137\n國防委員會不管採購也好或建案也好,它一定有個程序的。一開頭不講規格,到某個程序它就要講規格。所以我們建案它有三個程序。第一個,我一定要什麼任務,我要做什麼案。提出任務要求的人他也不知道規格。\n\n18\n00:06:03,278 --> 00:06:28,917\n到頭高的階段,他就要把規格講出來,至於到總公案,就理辨品項要更清楚,是一步一步來的。所以美國接近美國第一線的院,不管你完成以後,測試是一定要嚴格測試的。所以我們國家不管是經過中科院來統一來掌握,或各軍所來建案,這個最後用的單位,\n\n19\n00:06:29,778 --> 00:06:34,822\n美國的確很好,事實上他在某個層級裡面,可能你沒有看到他前面依據任務他的需求,或者最後他怎麼樣來去驗收\n\n20\n00:06:48,793 --> 00:07:07,252\n這跟我們最後都會符合在一道的我們也是因為有層級不同所以早晚一定要經過這個步驟才能夠符合我們建案跟我們獲得軍品或也好任何武器裝備能夠運用到部隊裡它用的單位可以滿足它的\n\n21\n00:07:08,053 --> 00:07:32,533\n我提出這一個其實蠻大的一個原因是因為我們看到我們的中科院其實在量能上壓力越來越大就因為中科院他要負責做很多的研發工作然後他又要接很多的案子所以變成說今天在無人機的這一個狀況他有時候他在中間那他必須要去他第一個他要去跟像我們在這個報告裡面有提到他可能要去跟經濟部啊什麼等等去跟國發會來做合作因為我們有很多的廠商在裡面嘛\n\n22\n00:07:32,933 --> 00:07:48,988\n他一方面也要再跟國防部一起來做比較新型的一些研發所以在量能上面我們就一直覺得說是不是可以解放中科院的量能然後也不會造成說像之前這個監察院報告提到的他只要一格歸一格這邊不符合就說這個會不會是一個採購的弊案啊什麼等等之類的\n\n23\n00:07:50,648 --> 00:08:11,816\n我跟委員簡單做個說明每個層級都有工作不同段像剛剛講的中科院又要建案又要跟其他部份協調沒有這樣子該要跟其他部份協調該國防部出面一定要出面我們一系列每個層級不一樣各做各的分工不同至於軍種建案如果可以在中科院那裡納入\n\n24\n00:08:13,057 --> 00:08:28,287\n本來我們也在做了一半以前的話搭配在裡面很自然嘛就為了讓裝備各方面能夠達到一致性不要分門別類各搞各的反而變成一個問題那現在只要在這個工作運作當中發掘的問題\n\n25\n00:08:30,469 --> 00:08:31,069\n因為假設今天中科院有時候在中間的話\n\n26\n00:08:52,541 --> 00:09:13,820\n他必須因為他必須要去了解今天實際的作戰需求然後他又要去往下理解規格那像我們今天像之前剛剛前面有提到那一個陸軍的那個水器啊什麼等等之類的像今天廠商他如果說今天這一個無人機他要怎麼做保養又或者說他今天要怎麼做維護這個東西呢他其實照理說他也不用再去給中科院然後再去給軍種其實廠商直接對\n\n27\n00:09:14,761 --> 00:09:15,361\n沈伯洋議員\n\n28\n00:09:38,005 --> 00:10:05,147\n這個目前來講不是說我們用無人機然後我們在這個CI裡面會使用這一個干擾牆來反制這個無人機那我只會很簡單的兩個問題第一個就是因為像這樣的一個干擾牆它必須還是要對準嘛對不對還是要瞄準那第一個就是偵測方面現在的進度如何這第一個第二個就是因為會有單位會問說那他們的法院也就是說呢因為畢竟這個現在干擾牆要放在他們那一邊嘛那有沒有一個事業的法院可以讓他們知道一下\n\n29\n00:10:05,587 --> 00:10:23,924\n是,謝謝委員,國土辦回應有關於偵測系統的部分目前大概是用區域聯防的方式無人機如果起飛或者是遙控它都有相關的射頻訊號是可以偵知的所以每個CEI會依照它的特性、它的範圍去建置它相對應的偵測系統\n\n30\n00:10:25,385 --> 00:10:52,238\n如果它本身的量體比較小當然就透過區域聯防那另外在這個法院的部分在民用航空法裡面本來就有這個設施單位者去驅離這個非法的無人機進來紅區的這樣的一個法院所以是他們是可以操作的那另外我們講的干擾有些時候我們應該是用干擾器比較適當因為它其實是一個射頻元件並不是一個干擾槍這就不跟那個軍\n\n31\n00:10:53,439 --> 00:11:06,751\n警方或軍方使用槍這是完全是不同的東西啦所以是一個干擾器所以在法院上面也都沒有問題那我們會跟各個部會做一個相關的說明感謝齁那就再跟這個各個CI跟他們講一下法院的一個部分謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n783\t1245\t有請部長、中科院院長及國土辦主任\n21179\t23420\t臺灣無人機發展報告指出有接近\n39186\t39367\t沈伯洋議員\n53923\t82625\t所以很高興可以看到在這個報告裡面可以看到就是說有接近這一個烏鴉戰爭的發展那現在我看到的幾個比較困境的地方是中科院的一個角色第一個就是呢這一次在報告裡面有提到說我們這個無人機有這個所謂各式各樣不同的層級這都在報告裡面那我想問的這個最主要是右邊的第二個問題就是說現在中科院委制的這個戰術戰術進程無人飛行的載具它的這個適用的情境當時它預想的狀況為何\n84026\t94857\t在報告裡面有提到有可能是為了要針對這個海上的目標或者為了要蒐集這個情報是不是可以把這個需求是不是可以先說明一下在中國院來講\n96363\t118474\t委員好 我是沈副院院長當初這個近程戰術無人飛行載具這是陸軍的需求我們主要是適用於在城鎮跟濱海作戰它的距離大概是30公里這個一個小時大概以這個城鎮來為戰術層級的武器大概是這個樣子\n119375\t132287\t好 謝謝那因為我現在看到整個這個狀況就是說看到譬如說陸軍因為現在各軍都有提出這個需求嘛我看無人機現在要求的這個可能有五六種那提出了需求之後呢中科院可能就會委制然後可能就會有民間廠商那因為\n134008\t152241\t在前陣子這個監察院有講到這個中科院偽製無人機採購案不公的一個狀況我沒有想要去講這個裡面的內容因為這個你們應該都已經知道了所以這個不是很重要我現在比較覺得有趣的一個地方就在於說他裡面有提到這些評選的委員嘛那委員裡面有六位是中科院的\n152481\t176002\t那三位是陸軍的士官,一位是外聘的學者專家那但是因為提出需求的,譬如說他提出需求的是陸軍那今天提出需求的單位他有沒有在這一個評選委員裡面比如說他們今天需求的人他知不知道今天廠商所交出來的這個給中科院的這一個無人機載具他到底有沒有符合陸軍想要得到的需求這件事情是要怎麼去確保\n176926\t198923\t我跟委員報告,當初加拿大也是針對人員、評選人員的一個界定提出意見來,我們也改了,譬如說一定為陸軍或哪一個士官,我們也馬拿掉,一定是跟專業有關但外聘人員來源,經過委員會、國科還哪一邊,公共委員會裡面的專業人員,我們從裡面來抓取\n206188\t211070\t現在如果說我們今天在評選的這個過程當中能夠讓需求方能夠更能夠知道說今天提出來的無人機載具能不能符合需求當然是好事\n228476\t241092\t但因為我們現在看到的狀況有一點我個人認為有點跌窗架屋就是第一個我們的各軍種可能提出了需求然後提出了需求之後呢中科院會開規格嘛那中科院開了規格之後呢這些廠商就是根據這些規格去製造這些載具但\n244396\t270732\t問題是在於說那為什麼今天軍種不直接對到廠商因為我說覺得中科院這樣反而因為像今天廠院這個報告裡面我就覺得中科院很重工輕便事主因為中科院他今天理解的並不是需求方他理解的是規格他把規格開得很好然後去把規格交給這一個各廠商所以廠商去符合這樣的一個規格然後去做製造那所以我就去參照了一些美國的經驗就是這個我就先跳過因為這是演習的需求就是\n271252\t300336\t我看到美國他們是提出了需求之後他不是直接提規格然後各廠商他就提出了各式各樣為人因應這個作戰需求的方案比如說今天這個作戰需求是要針對海上目標今天這個需求像剛有提到的可能是在城鎮裡面要做使用那把需求提出來之後廠商就開始不斷的去提出他們的解決方案然後中間就會有各式各樣的測試那我看到他們的測試其實他們的評估人員就直接是戰鬥人員也不是武器的這個評估的幕僚\n301016\t326969\t那這個戰鬥人員去做測試的時候他可能就會發現說這邊哪裡完全不符合我們的需求是不是請廠商可以再多做一點那我現在發現我國的一個採購狀況有時候會變成說廠商是要先去符合規格但廠商有可能會發現這個規格到底有沒有符合當時陸軍或海軍提出來的那個想定提出來的那一個需求但他又不敢僭越因為中科院其實已經把規格訂好給他了那對他們來講他們就是把規格做好就好\n327369\t343167\t但他如果沒有想到其他他想做的事情的時候那該如何變成中間那個溝通的那個管道有時候會因為因為中科院必須要坐在那一個位置那中科院也必須要把規格開好那像這種直接把需求提出來讓廠商參加這樣的可能性有沒有呢\n344056\t362137\t國防委員會不管採購也好或建案也好,它一定有個程序的。一開頭不講規格,到某個程序它就要講規格。所以我們建案它有三個程序。第一個,我一定要什麼任務,我要做什麼案。提出任務要求的人他也不知道規格。\n363278\t388917\t到頭高的階段,他就要把規格講出來,至於到總公案,就理辨品項要更清楚,是一步一步來的。所以美國接近美國第一線的院,不管你完成以後,測試是一定要嚴格測試的。所以我們國家不管是經過中科院來統一來掌握,或各軍所來建案,這個最後用的單位,\n389778\t394822\t美國的確很好,事實上他在某個層級裡面,可能你沒有看到他前面依據任務他的需求,或者最後他怎麼樣來去驗收\n408793\t427252\t這跟我們最後都會符合在一道的我們也是因為有層級不同所以早晚一定要經過這個步驟才能夠符合我們建案跟我們獲得軍品或也好任何武器裝備能夠運用到部隊裡它用的單位可以滿足它的\n428053\t452533\t我提出這一個其實蠻大的一個原因是因為我們看到我們的中科院其實在量能上壓力越來越大就因為中科院他要負責做很多的研發工作然後他又要接很多的案子所以變成說今天在無人機的這一個狀況他有時候他在中間那他必須要去他第一個他要去跟像我們在這個報告裡面有提到他可能要去跟經濟部啊什麼等等去跟國發會來做合作因為我們有很多的廠商在裡面嘛\n452933\t468988\t他一方面也要再跟國防部一起來做比較新型的一些研發所以在量能上面我們就一直覺得說是不是可以解放中科院的量能然後也不會造成說像之前這個監察院報告提到的他只要一格歸一格這邊不符合就說這個會不會是一個採購的弊案啊什麼等等之類的\n470648\t491816\t我跟委員簡單做個說明每個層級都有工作不同段像剛剛講的中科院又要建案又要跟其他部份協調沒有這樣子該要跟其他部份協調該國防部出面一定要出面我們一系列每個層級不一樣各做各的分工不同至於軍種建案如果可以在中科院那裡納入\n493057\t508287\t本來我們也在做了一半以前的話搭配在裡面很自然嘛就為了讓裝備各方面能夠達到一致性不要分門別類各搞各的反而變成一個問題那現在只要在這個工作運作當中發掘的問題\n510469\t511069\t因為假設今天中科院有時候在中間的話\n532541\t553820\t他必須因為他必須要去了解今天實際的作戰需求然後他又要去往下理解規格那像我們今天像之前剛剛前面有提到那一個陸軍的那個水器啊什麼等等之類的像今天廠商他如果說今天這一個無人機他要怎麼做保養又或者說他今天要怎麼做維護這個東西呢他其實照理說他也不用再去給中科院然後再去給軍種其實廠商直接對\n554761\t555361\t沈伯洋議員\n578005\t605147\t這個目前來講不是說我們用無人機然後我們在這個CI裡面會使用這一個干擾牆來反制這個無人機那我只會很簡單的兩個問題第一個就是因為像這樣的一個干擾牆它必須還是要對準嘛對不對還是要瞄準那第一個就是偵測方面現在的進度如何這第一個第二個就是因為會有單位會問說那他們的法院也就是說呢因為畢竟這個現在干擾牆要放在他們那一邊嘛那有沒有一個事業的法院可以讓他們知道一下\n605587\t623924\t是,謝謝委員,國土辦回應有關於偵測系統的部分目前大概是用區域聯防的方式無人機如果起飛或者是遙控它都有相關的射頻訊號是可以偵知的所以每個CEI會依照它的特性、它的範圍去建置它相對應的偵測系統\n625385\t652238\t如果它本身的量體比較小當然就透過區域聯防那另外在這個法院的部分在民用航空法裡面本來就有這個設施單位者去驅離這個非法的無人機進來紅區的這樣的一個法院所以是他們是可以操作的那另外我們講的干擾有些時候我們應該是用干擾器比較適當因為它其實是一個射頻元件並不是一個干擾槍這就不跟那個軍\n653439\t666751\t警方或軍方使用槍這是完全是不同的東西啦所以是一個干擾器所以在法院上面也都沒有問題那我們會跟各個部會做一個相關的說明感謝齁那就再跟這個各個CI跟他們講一下法院的一個部分謝謝部長 謝謝主席\n","txt":"有請部長、中科院院長及國土辦主任\n臺灣無人機發展報告指出有接近\n沈伯洋議員\n所以很高興可以看到在這個報告裡面可以看到就是說有接近這一個烏鴉戰爭的發展那現在我看到的幾個比較困境的地方是中科院的一個角色第一個就是呢這一次在報告裡面有提到說我們這個無人機有這個所謂各式各樣不同的層級這都在報告裡面那我想問的這個最主要是右邊的第二個問題就是說現在中科院委制的這個戰術戰術進程無人飛行的載具它的這個適用的情境當時它預想的狀況為何\n在報告裡面有提到有可能是為了要針對這個海上的目標或者為了要蒐集這個情報是不是可以把這個需求是不是可以先說明一下在中國院來講\n委員好 我是沈副院院長當初這個近程戰術無人飛行載具這是陸軍的需求我們主要是適用於在城鎮跟濱海作戰它的距離大概是30公里這個一個小時大概以這個城鎮來為戰術層級的武器大概是這個樣子\n好 謝謝那因為我現在看到整個這個狀況就是說看到譬如說陸軍因為現在各軍都有提出這個需求嘛我看無人機現在要求的這個可能有五六種那提出了需求之後呢中科院可能就會委制然後可能就會有民間廠商那因為\n在前陣子這個監察院有講到這個中科院偽製無人機採購案不公的一個狀況我沒有想要去講這個裡面的內容因為這個你們應該都已經知道了所以這個不是很重要我現在比較覺得有趣的一個地方就在於說他裡面有提到這些評選的委員嘛那委員裡面有六位是中科院的\n那三位是陸軍的士官,一位是外聘的學者專家那但是因為提出需求的,譬如說他提出需求的是陸軍那今天提出需求的單位他有沒有在這一個評選委員裡面比如說他們今天需求的人他知不知道今天廠商所交出來的這個給中科院的這一個無人機載具他到底有沒有符合陸軍想要得到的需求這件事情是要怎麼去確保\n我跟委員報告,當初加拿大也是針對人員、評選人員的一個界定提出意見來,我們也改了,譬如說一定為陸軍或哪一個士官,我們也馬拿掉,一定是跟專業有關但外聘人員來源,經過委員會、國科還哪一邊,公共委員會裡面的專業人員,我們從裡面來抓取\n現在如果說我們今天在評選的這個過程當中能夠讓需求方能夠更能夠知道說今天提出來的無人機載具能不能符合需求當然是好事\n但因為我們現在看到的狀況有一點我個人認為有點跌窗架屋就是第一個我們的各軍種可能提出了需求然後提出了需求之後呢中科院會開規格嘛那中科院開了規格之後呢這些廠商就是根據這些規格去製造這些載具但\n問題是在於說那為什麼今天軍種不直接對到廠商因為我說覺得中科院這樣反而因為像今天廠院這個報告裡面我就覺得中科院很重工輕便事主因為中科院他今天理解的並不是需求方他理解的是規格他把規格開得很好然後去把規格交給這一個各廠商所以廠商去符合這樣的一個規格然後去做製造那所以我就去參照了一些美國的經驗就是這個我就先跳過因為這是演習的需求就是\n我看到美國他們是提出了需求之後他不是直接提規格然後各廠商他就提出了各式各樣為人因應這個作戰需求的方案比如說今天這個作戰需求是要針對海上目標今天這個需求像剛有提到的可能是在城鎮裡面要做使用那把需求提出來之後廠商就開始不斷的去提出他們的解決方案然後中間就會有各式各樣的測試那我看到他們的測試其實他們的評估人員就直接是戰鬥人員也不是武器的這個評估的幕僚\n那這個戰鬥人員去做測試的時候他可能就會發現說這邊哪裡完全不符合我們的需求是不是請廠商可以再多做一點那我現在發現我國的一個採購狀況有時候會變成說廠商是要先去符合規格但廠商有可能會發現這個規格到底有沒有符合當時陸軍或海軍提出來的那個想定提出來的那一個需求但他又不敢僭越因為中科院其實已經把規格訂好給他了那對他們來講他們就是把規格做好就好\n但他如果沒有想到其他他想做的事情的時候那該如何變成中間那個溝通的那個管道有時候會因為因為中科院必須要坐在那一個位置那中科院也必須要把規格開好那像這種直接把需求提出來讓廠商參加這樣的可能性有沒有呢\n國防委員會不管採購也好或建案也好,它一定有個程序的。一開頭不講規格,到某個程序它就要講規格。所以我們建案它有三個程序。第一個,我一定要什麼任務,我要做什麼案。提出任務要求的人他也不知道規格。\n到頭高的階段,他就要把規格講出來,至於到總公案,就理辨品項要更清楚,是一步一步來的。所以美國接近美國第一線的院,不管你完成以後,測試是一定要嚴格測試的。所以我們國家不管是經過中科院來統一來掌握,或各軍所來建案,這個最後用的單位,\n美國的確很好,事實上他在某個層級裡面,可能你沒有看到他前面依據任務他的需求,或者最後他怎麼樣來去驗收\n這跟我們最後都會符合在一道的我們也是因為有層級不同所以早晚一定要經過這個步驟才能夠符合我們建案跟我們獲得軍品或也好任何武器裝備能夠運用到部隊裡它用的單位可以滿足它的\n我提出這一個其實蠻大的一個原因是因為我們看到我們的中科院其實在量能上壓力越來越大就因為中科院他要負責做很多的研發工作然後他又要接很多的案子所以變成說今天在無人機的這一個狀況他有時候他在中間那他必須要去他第一個他要去跟像我們在這個報告裡面有提到他可能要去跟經濟部啊什麼等等去跟國發會來做合作因為我們有很多的廠商在裡面嘛\n他一方面也要再跟國防部一起來做比較新型的一些研發所以在量能上面我們就一直覺得說是不是可以解放中科院的量能然後也不會造成說像之前這個監察院報告提到的他只要一格歸一格這邊不符合就說這個會不會是一個採購的弊案啊什麼等等之類的\n我跟委員簡單做個說明每個層級都有工作不同段像剛剛講的中科院又要建案又要跟其他部份協調沒有這樣子該要跟其他部份協調該國防部出面一定要出面我們一系列每個層級不一樣各做各的分工不同至於軍種建案如果可以在中科院那裡納入\n本來我們也在做了一半以前的話搭配在裡面很自然嘛就為了讓裝備各方面能夠達到一致性不要分門別類各搞各的反而變成一個問題那現在只要在這個工作運作當中發掘的問題\n因為假設今天中科院有時候在中間的話\n他必須因為他必須要去了解今天實際的作戰需求然後他又要去往下理解規格那像我們今天像之前剛剛前面有提到那一個陸軍的那個水器啊什麼等等之類的像今天廠商他如果說今天這一個無人機他要怎麼做保養又或者說他今天要怎麼做維護這個東西呢他其實照理說他也不用再去給中科院然後再去給軍種其實廠商直接對\n沈伯洋議員\n這個目前來講不是說我們用無人機然後我們在這個CI裡面會使用這一個干擾牆來反制這個無人機那我只會很簡單的兩個問題第一個就是因為像這樣的一個干擾牆它必須還是要對準嘛對不對還是要瞄準那第一個就是偵測方面現在的進度如何這第一個第二個就是因為會有單位會問說那他們的法院也就是說呢因為畢竟這個現在干擾牆要放在他們那一邊嘛那有沒有一個事業的法院可以讓他們知道一下\n是,謝謝委員,國土辦回應有關於偵測系統的部分目前大概是用區域聯防的方式無人機如果起飛或者是遙控它都有相關的射頻訊號是可以偵知的所以每個CEI會依照它的特性、它的範圍去建置它相對應的偵測系統\n如果它本身的量體比較小當然就透過區域聯防那另外在這個法院的部分在民用航空法裡面本來就有這個設施單位者去驅離這個非法的無人機進來紅區的這樣的一個法院所以是他們是可以操作的那另外我們講的干擾有些時候我們應該是用干擾器比較適當因為它其實是一個射頻元件並不是一個干擾槍這就不跟那個軍\n警方或軍方使用槍這是完全是不同的東西啦所以是一個干擾器所以在法院上面也都沒有問題那我們會跟各個部會做一個相關的說明感謝齁那就再跟這個各個CI跟他們講一下法院的一個部分謝謝部長 謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.783 --> 00:01.245\n有請部長、中科院院長及國土辦主任\n\n00:21.179 --> 00:23.420\n臺灣無人機發展報告指出有接近\n\n00:39.186 --> 00:39.367\n沈伯洋議員\n\n00:53.923 --> 01:22.625\n所以很高興可以看到在這個報告裡面可以看到就是說有接近這一個烏鴉戰爭的發展那現在我看到的幾個比較困境的地方是中科院的一個角色第一個就是呢這一次在報告裡面有提到說我們這個無人機有這個所謂各式各樣不同的層級這都在報告裡面那我想問的這個最主要是右邊的第二個問題就是說現在中科院委制的這個戰術戰術進程無人飛行的載具它的這個適用的情境當時它預想的狀況為何\n\n01:24.026 --> 01:34.857\n在報告裡面有提到有可能是為了要針對這個海上的目標或者為了要蒐集這個情報是不是可以把這個需求是不是可以先說明一下在中國院來講\n\n01:36.363 --> 01:58.474\n委員好我是沈副院院長當初這個近程戰術無人飛行載具這是陸軍的需求我們主要是適用於在城鎮跟濱海作戰它的距離大概是30公里這個一個小時大概以這個城鎮來為戰術層級的武器大概是這個樣子\n\n01:59.375 --> 02:12.287\n好謝謝那因為我現在看到整個這個狀況就是說看到譬如說陸軍因為現在各軍都有提出這個需求嘛我看無人機現在要求的這個可能有五六種那提出了需求之後呢中科院可能就會委制然後可能就會有民間廠商那因為\n\n02:14.008 --> 02:32.241\n在前陣子這個監察院有講到這個中科院偽製無人機採購案不公的一個狀況我沒有想要去講這個裡面的內容因為這個你們應該都已經知道了所以這個不是很重要我現在比較覺得有趣的一個地方就在於說他裡面有提到這些評選的委員嘛那委員裡面有六位是中科院的\n\n02:32.481 --> 02:56.002\n那三位是陸軍的士官,一位是外聘的學者專家那但是因為提出需求的,譬如說他提出需求的是陸軍那今天提出需求的單位他有沒有在這一個評選委員裡面比如說他們今天需求的人他知不知道今天廠商所交出來的這個給中科院的這一個無人機載具他到底有沒有符合陸軍想要得到的需求這件事情是要怎麼去確保\n\n02:56.926 --> 03:18.923\n我跟委員報告,當初加拿大也是針對人員、評選人員的一個界定提出意見來,我們也改了,譬如說一定為陸軍或哪一個士官,我們也馬拿掉,一定是跟專業有關但外聘人員來源,經過委員會、國科還哪一邊,公共委員會裡面的專業人員,我們從裡面來抓取\n\n03:26.188 --> 03:31.070\n現在如果說我們今天在評選的這個過程當中能夠讓需求方能夠更能夠知道說今天提出來的無人機載具能不能符合需求當然是好事\n\n03:48.476 --> 04:01.092\n但因為我們現在看到的狀況有一點我個人認為有點跌窗架屋就是第一個我們的各軍種可能提出了需求然後提出了需求之後呢中科院會開規格嘛那中科院開了規格之後呢這些廠商就是根據這些規格去製造這些載具但\n\n04:04.396 --> 04:30.732\n問題是在於說那為什麼今天軍種不直接對到廠商因為我說覺得中科院這樣反而因為像今天廠院這個報告裡面我就覺得中科院很重工輕便事主因為中科院他今天理解的並不是需求方他理解的是規格他把規格開得很好然後去把規格交給這一個各廠商所以廠商去符合這樣的一個規格然後去做製造那所以我就去參照了一些美國的經驗就是這個我就先跳過因為這是演習的需求就是\n\n04:31.252 --> 05:00.336\n我看到美國他們是提出了需求之後他不是直接提規格然後各廠商他就提出了各式各樣為人因應這個作戰需求的方案比如說今天這個作戰需求是要針對海上目標今天這個需求像剛有提到的可能是在城鎮裡面要做使用那把需求提出來之後廠商就開始不斷的去提出他們的解決方案然後中間就會有各式各樣的測試那我看到他們的測試其實他們的評估人員就直接是戰鬥人員也不是武器的這個評估的幕僚\n\n05:01.016 --> 05:26.969\n那這個戰鬥人員去做測試的時候他可能就會發現說這邊哪裡完全不符合我們的需求是不是請廠商可以再多做一點那我現在發現我國的一個採購狀況有時候會變成說廠商是要先去符合規格但廠商有可能會發現這個規格到底有沒有符合當時陸軍或海軍提出來的那個想定提出來的那一個需求但他又不敢僭越因為中科院其實已經把規格訂好給他了那對他們來講他們就是把規格做好就好\n\n05:27.369 --> 05:43.167\n但他如果沒有想到其他他想做的事情的時候那該如何變成中間那個溝通的那個管道有時候會因為因為中科院必須要坐在那一個位置那中科院也必須要把規格開好那像這種直接把需求提出來讓廠商參加這樣的可能性有沒有呢\n\n05:44.056 --> 06:02.137\n國防委員會不管採購也好或建案也好,它一定有個程序的。一開頭不講規格,到某個程序它就要講規格。所以我們建案它有三個程序。第一個,我一定要什麼任務,我要做什麼案。提出任務要求的人他也不知道規格。\n\n06:03.278 --> 06:28.917\n到頭高的階段,他就要把規格講出來,至於到總公案,就理辨品項要更清楚,是一步一步來的。所以美國接近美國第一線的院,不管你完成以後,測試是一定要嚴格測試的。所以我們國家不管是經過中科院來統一來掌握,或各軍所來建案,這個最後用的單位,\n\n06:29.778 --> 06:34.822\n美國的確很好,事實上他在某個層級裡面,可能你沒有看到他前面依據任務他的需求,或者最後他怎麼樣來去驗收\n\n06:48.793 --> 07:07.252\n這跟我們最後都會符合在一道的我們也是因為有層級不同所以早晚一定要經過這個步驟才能夠符合我們建案跟我們獲得軍品或也好任何武器裝備能夠運用到部隊裡它用的單位可以滿足它的\n\n07:08.053 --> 07:32.533\n我提出這一個其實蠻大的一個原因是因為我們看到我們的中科院其實在量能上壓力越來越大就因為中科院他要負責做很多的研發工作然後他又要接很多的案子所以變成說今天在無人機的這一個狀況他有時候他在中間那他必須要去他第一個他要去跟像我們在這個報告裡面有提到他可能要去跟經濟部啊什麼等等去跟國發會來做合作因為我們有很多的廠商在裡面嘛\n\n07:32.933 --> 07:48.988\n他一方面也要再跟國防部一起來做比較新型的一些研發所以在量能上面我們就一直覺得說是不是可以解放中科院的量能然後也不會造成說像之前這個監察院報告提到的他只要一格歸一格這邊不符合就說這個會不會是一個採購的弊案啊什麼等等之類的\n\n07:50.648 --> 08:11.816\n我跟委員簡單做個說明每個層級都有工作不同段像剛剛講的中科院又要建案又要跟其他部份協調沒有這樣子該要跟其他部份協調該國防部出面一定要出面我們一系列每個層級不一樣各做各的分工不同至於軍種建案如果可以在中科院那裡納入\n\n08:13.057 --> 08:28.287\n本來我們也在做了一半以前的話搭配在裡面很自然嘛就為了讓裝備各方面能夠達到一致性不要分門別類各搞各的反而變成一個問題那現在只要在這個工作運作當中發掘的問題\n\n08:30.469 --> 08:31.069\n因為假設今天中科院有時候在中間的話\n\n08:52.541 --> 09:13.820\n他必須因為他必須要去了解今天實際的作戰需求然後他又要去往下理解規格那像我們今天像之前剛剛前面有提到那一個陸軍的那個水器啊什麼等等之類的像今天廠商他如果說今天這一個無人機他要怎麼做保養又或者說他今天要怎麼做維護這個東西呢他其實照理說他也不用再去給中科院然後再去給軍種其實廠商直接對\n\n09:14.761 --> 09:15.361\n沈伯洋議員\n\n09:38.005 --> 10:05.147\n這個目前來講不是說我們用無人機然後我們在這個CI裡面會使用這一個干擾牆來反制這個無人機那我只會很簡單的兩個問題第一個就是因為像這樣的一個干擾牆它必須還是要對準嘛對不對還是要瞄準那第一個就是偵測方面現在的進度如何這第一個第二個就是因為會有單位會問說那他們的法院也就是說呢因為畢竟這個現在干擾牆要放在他們那一邊嘛那有沒有一個事業的法院可以讓他們知道一下\n\n10:05.587 --> 10:23.924\n是,謝謝委員,國土辦回應有關於偵測系統的部分目前大概是用區域聯防的方式無人機如果起飛或者是遙控它都有相關的射頻訊號是可以偵知的所以每個CEI會依照它的特性、它的範圍去建置它相對應的偵測系統\n\n10:25.385 --> 10:52.238\n如果它本身的量體比較小當然就透過區域聯防那另外在這個法院的部分在民用航空法裡面本來就有這個設施單位者去驅離這個非法的無人機進來紅區的這樣的一個法院所以是他們是可以操作的那另外我們講的干擾有些時候我們應該是用干擾器比較適當因為它其實是一個射頻元件並不是一個干擾槍這就不跟那個軍\n\n10:53.439 --> 11:06.751\n警方或軍方使用槍這是完全是不同的東西啦所以是一個干擾器所以在法院上面也都沒有問題那我們會跟各個部會做一個相關的說明感謝齁那就再跟這個各個CI跟他們講一下法院的一個部分謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.783,"end":1.245,"text":"有請部長、中科院院長及國土辦主任"},{"start":21.179,"end":23.42,"text":"臺灣無人機發展報告指出有接近"},{"start":39.186,"end":39.367,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":53.923,"end":82.625,"text":"所以很高興可以看到在這個報告裡面可以看到就是說有接近這一個烏鴉戰爭的發展那現在我看到的幾個比較困境的地方是中科院的一個角色第一個就是呢這一次在報告裡面有提到說我們這個無人機有這個所謂各式各樣不同的層級這都在報告裡面那我想問的這個最主要是右邊的第二個問題就是說現在中科院委制的這個戰術戰術進程無人飛行的載具它的這個適用的情境當時它預想的狀況為何"},{"start":84.026,"end":94.857,"text":"在報告裡面有提到有可能是為了要針對這個海上的目標或者為了要蒐集這個情報是不是可以把這個需求是不是可以先說明一下在中國院來講"},{"start":96.363,"end":118.474,"text":"委員好 我是沈副院院長當初這個近程戰術無人飛行載具這是陸軍的需求我們主要是適用於在城鎮跟濱海作戰它的距離大概是30公里這個一個小時大概以這個城鎮來為戰術層級的武器大概是這個樣子"},{"start":119.375,"end":132.287,"text":"好 謝謝那因為我現在看到整個這個狀況就是說看到譬如說陸軍因為現在各軍都有提出這個需求嘛我看無人機現在要求的這個可能有五六種那提出了需求之後呢中科院可能就會委制然後可能就會有民間廠商那因為"},{"start":134.008,"end":152.241,"text":"在前陣子這個監察院有講到這個中科院偽製無人機採購案不公的一個狀況我沒有想要去講這個裡面的內容因為這個你們應該都已經知道了所以這個不是很重要我現在比較覺得有趣的一個地方就在於說他裡面有提到這些評選的委員嘛那委員裡面有六位是中科院的"},{"start":152.481,"end":176.002,"text":"那三位是陸軍的士官,一位是外聘的學者專家那但是因為提出需求的,譬如說他提出需求的是陸軍那今天提出需求的單位他有沒有在這一個評選委員裡面比如說他們今天需求的人他知不知道今天廠商所交出來的這個給中科院的這一個無人機載具他到底有沒有符合陸軍想要得到的需求這件事情是要怎麼去確保"},{"start":176.926,"end":198.923,"text":"我跟委員報告,當初加拿大也是針對人員、評選人員的一個界定提出意見來,我們也改了,譬如說一定為陸軍或哪一個士官,我們也馬拿掉,一定是跟專業有關但外聘人員來源,經過委員會、國科還哪一邊,公共委員會裡面的專業人員,我們從裡面來抓取"},{"start":206.188,"end":211.07,"text":"現在如果說我們今天在評選的這個過程當中能夠讓需求方能夠更能夠知道說今天提出來的無人機載具能不能符合需求當然是好事"},{"start":228.476,"end":241.092,"text":"但因為我們現在看到的狀況有一點我個人認為有點跌窗架屋就是第一個我們的各軍種可能提出了需求然後提出了需求之後呢中科院會開規格嘛那中科院開了規格之後呢這些廠商就是根據這些規格去製造這些載具但"},{"start":244.396,"end":270.732,"text":"問題是在於說那為什麼今天軍種不直接對到廠商因為我說覺得中科院這樣反而因為像今天廠院這個報告裡面我就覺得中科院很重工輕便事主因為中科院他今天理解的並不是需求方他理解的是規格他把規格開得很好然後去把規格交給這一個各廠商所以廠商去符合這樣的一個規格然後去做製造那所以我就去參照了一些美國的經驗就是這個我就先跳過因為這是演習的需求就是"},{"start":271.252,"end":300.336,"text":"我看到美國他們是提出了需求之後他不是直接提規格然後各廠商他就提出了各式各樣為人因應這個作戰需求的方案比如說今天這個作戰需求是要針對海上目標今天這個需求像剛有提到的可能是在城鎮裡面要做使用那把需求提出來之後廠商就開始不斷的去提出他們的解決方案然後中間就會有各式各樣的測試那我看到他們的測試其實他們的評估人員就直接是戰鬥人員也不是武器的這個評估的幕僚"},{"start":301.016,"end":326.969,"text":"那這個戰鬥人員去做測試的時候他可能就會發現說這邊哪裡完全不符合我們的需求是不是請廠商可以再多做一點那我現在發現我國的一個採購狀況有時候會變成說廠商是要先去符合規格但廠商有可能會發現這個規格到底有沒有符合當時陸軍或海軍提出來的那個想定提出來的那一個需求但他又不敢僭越因為中科院其實已經把規格訂好給他了那對他們來講他們就是把規格做好就好"},{"start":327.369,"end":343.167,"text":"但他如果沒有想到其他他想做的事情的時候那該如何變成中間那個溝通的那個管道有時候會因為因為中科院必須要坐在那一個位置那中科院也必須要把規格開好那像這種直接把需求提出來讓廠商參加這樣的可能性有沒有呢"},{"start":344.056,"end":362.137,"text":"國防委員會不管採購也好或建案也好,它一定有個程序的。一開頭不講規格,到某個程序它就要講規格。所以我們建案它有三個程序。第一個,我一定要什麼任務,我要做什麼案。提出任務要求的人他也不知道規格。"},{"start":363.278,"end":388.917,"text":"到頭高的階段,他就要把規格講出來,至於到總公案,就理辨品項要更清楚,是一步一步來的。所以美國接近美國第一線的院,不管你完成以後,測試是一定要嚴格測試的。所以我們國家不管是經過中科院來統一來掌握,或各軍所來建案,這個最後用的單位,"},{"start":389.778,"end":394.822,"text":"美國的確很好,事實上他在某個層級裡面,可能你沒有看到他前面依據任務他的需求,或者最後他怎麼樣來去驗收"},{"start":408.793,"end":427.252,"text":"這跟我們最後都會符合在一道的我們也是因為有層級不同所以早晚一定要經過這個步驟才能夠符合我們建案跟我們獲得軍品或也好任何武器裝備能夠運用到部隊裡它用的單位可以滿足它的"},{"start":428.053,"end":452.533,"text":"我提出這一個其實蠻大的一個原因是因為我們看到我們的中科院其實在量能上壓力越來越大就因為中科院他要負責做很多的研發工作然後他又要接很多的案子所以變成說今天在無人機的這一個狀況他有時候他在中間那他必須要去他第一個他要去跟像我們在這個報告裡面有提到他可能要去跟經濟部啊什麼等等去跟國發會來做合作因為我們有很多的廠商在裡面嘛"},{"start":452.933,"end":468.988,"text":"他一方面也要再跟國防部一起來做比較新型的一些研發所以在量能上面我們就一直覺得說是不是可以解放中科院的量能然後也不會造成說像之前這個監察院報告提到的他只要一格歸一格這邊不符合就說這個會不會是一個採購的弊案啊什麼等等之類的"},{"start":470.648,"end":491.816,"text":"我跟委員簡單做個說明每個層級都有工作不同段像剛剛講的中科院又要建案又要跟其他部份協調沒有這樣子該要跟其他部份協調該國防部出面一定要出面我們一系列每個層級不一樣各做各的分工不同至於軍種建案如果可以在中科院那裡納入"},{"start":493.057,"end":508.287,"text":"本來我們也在做了一半以前的話搭配在裡面很自然嘛就為了讓裝備各方面能夠達到一致性不要分門別類各搞各的反而變成一個問題那現在只要在這個工作運作當中發掘的問題"},{"start":510.469,"end":511.069,"text":"因為假設今天中科院有時候在中間的話"},{"start":532.541,"end":553.82,"text":"他必須因為他必須要去了解今天實際的作戰需求然後他又要去往下理解規格那像我們今天像之前剛剛前面有提到那一個陸軍的那個水器啊什麼等等之類的像今天廠商他如果說今天這一個無人機他要怎麼做保養又或者說他今天要怎麼做維護這個東西呢他其實照理說他也不用再去給中科院然後再去給軍種其實廠商直接對"},{"start":554.761,"end":555.361,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":578.005,"end":605.147,"text":"這個目前來講不是說我們用無人機然後我們在這個CI裡面會使用這一個干擾牆來反制這個無人機那我只會很簡單的兩個問題第一個就是因為像這樣的一個干擾牆它必須還是要對準嘛對不對還是要瞄準那第一個就是偵測方面現在的進度如何這第一個第二個就是因為會有單位會問說那他們的法院也就是說呢因為畢竟這個現在干擾牆要放在他們那一邊嘛那有沒有一個事業的法院可以讓他們知道一下"},{"start":605.587,"end":623.924,"text":"是,謝謝委員,國土辦回應有關於偵測系統的部分目前大概是用區域聯防的方式無人機如果起飛或者是遙控它都有相關的射頻訊號是可以偵知的所以每個CEI會依照它的特性、它的範圍去建置它相對應的偵測系統"},{"start":625.385,"end":652.238,"text":"如果它本身的量體比較小當然就透過區域聯防那另外在這個法院的部分在民用航空法裡面本來就有這個設施單位者去驅離這個非法的無人機進來紅區的這樣的一個法院所以是他們是可以操作的那另外我們講的干擾有些時候我們應該是用干擾器比較適當因為它其實是一個射頻元件並不是一個干擾槍這就不跟那個軍"},{"start":653.439,"end":666.751,"text":"警方或軍方使用槍這是完全是不同的東西啦所以是一個干擾器所以在法院上面也都沒有問題那我們會跟各個部會做一個相關的說明感謝齁那就再跟這個各個CI跟他們講一下法院的一個部分謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}}}}