{"id":150474,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150474","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d51e05ea77a4eb9e9bf9597c3f3f044368f8ba9b0039caa7a6d2f3ea4d6b5664bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:36:39 - 10:49:19","影片長度":"00:12:40","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-9"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":760,"end_time":"2024-03-27T10:49:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T10:36:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":402,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時36分）請部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["邱部長國正：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，國防部推動很多政策的時候，應該都會做一些有效性的評估，確認任何政策有沒有達到政策的目的，任何管理的政策有沒有達到管理的目的，所以部長同意你們在軍隊管理應該也要進行這些有效性的評估嗎？部長同意嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我同意要管理的話，就是為了要讓這個工作有效嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["邱部長國正：假使你要把這個有效性評估當作一個作業來看……"],["洪委員申翰：它不見得是一個作業，不是一個作業，但是我們要去確認它的有效性。"],["邱部長國正：一定。"],["洪委員申翰：這個是確認的？"],["邱部長國正：是，目的何在嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：之前在國防外交委員會其實已經談過幾次了，國軍人員出國業務作業規定裡面一直有明定，申請出國觀光人員應該要自行選定經交通部觀光局立案合格且信譽良好的旅行社，出國人員應全程隨團活動，不得擅自脫隊。部長，這個是現在國防部的規定沒有錯，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["洪委員申翰：目前有多少人員受到此規範？這個規範跟管理的目的是什麼？"],["邱部長國正：有關管理的目的，我現在問他出國的目的，通常軍方人員出國，除了公務，參加旅遊、排解心情或跟家庭出遊，都是可以的。如果他的目的是這樣，我們要求跟團是為了要人員管控，假使他有個人因素一定要親自去處理，就不跟團，我們也會同樣讓他……"],["洪委員申翰：因為我的簡報是寫「申請出國觀光人員」，所以我現在討論的當然是出國觀光，我指的是他有觀光需求的，你們是在出國觀光項目上面要求隨團活動，假設他要去就醫等等，那是另外一回事。我講的是出國觀光，要求出國觀光的人必須隨團的管理目的是什麼？這是一個管理，對不對？這是用規範、法規來要求的管理，目的是什麼？我還是想跟部長確認一下。"],["邱部長國正：好的一面來講，他有什麼問題，我們可以瞭解、幫他、協助他，這就是目的。"],["洪委員申翰：2023年11月你們有一份紀錄講到維持現狀，就是要隨團管理，第一個是防止人員洩密，第二個覺得跟團比較安全，第三個緊急狀況容易掌握，大概是這三個目的，這是你們寫給我們的。但我想確認一件事情，以現在管理的方法，你說要防止洩密。我就很好奇，假設他在出國觀光之前，你們會跟他的旅行社產生聯繫，告知這個團員是一個軍人，所以他的管制要符合規範，你們會跟他的旅行社、甚至他的導遊這樣聯繫嗎？不會，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：不會。"],["洪委員申翰：其實不會，所以在出國前你們不會跟他聯繫。第二個、在出國的時候，如果這個軍人說今天很不舒服，要在旅館裡面休息，可能會離團一段時間，你們其實也沒有什麼方法可以去掌握，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：他也不用回報嘛？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["洪委員申翰：好，這是在出國的時候。再來，事後他需要再回報嗎？例如他說在迪士尼的行程脫隊了8個小時，可能因為種種原因，所以他在旅館沒有跟著團一起去迪士尼，也沒有事後回報，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：這時候就讓我們覺得好奇了，現在你們強制要求人家一定要隨團，可是事前沒有任何跟這個團的聯繫，中間也沒有任何保持管理的機制，事後他也不用回報。部長，你怎麼會覺得他只要隨團就可以防止洩密？"],["邱部長國正：不是。我們的這個方法最起碼隨團遇到任何的困難，會有團隊或者透過這個團隊跟我們外部的人員有所聯絡，假使我們同意個人隨意行動，他的問題我完全不知道，所以這個是出於善意，不是想要管控他。剛剛委員也講，出去了誰管得到，但是最起碼這團隊可能有幫忙……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我完全同意應該管，因為我們現在真的擔心安全、洩密等情事，我完全同意這件事情。我們現在討論的事情是怎麼樣做能夠有效，無效的管理該被調整，我們應該設法更有效的達到目的，我今天想跟部長討論的是這件事情。確實有很多國軍士兵要出國，現在大概有18萬人被管制，被管制的這些人要出國的時候，有一些希望能夠家庭旅遊，或希望跟他的女朋友一起出去，對不起！現在沒有辦法，他一定要跟團，所以這其實是有一些抱怨。但我現在怕的是，強制要求跟團，所以大家要去符合形式上的要求，可是實質上管理的目的是為了防止他洩密，或者擔心他的安全，而跟團這件事情又不能真正達到這個目的，大家就會對於這個管理的手段有很多存疑、有很多疑問。這是不是一個有效的管理去達到原本的目的？部長，現在大家的問題是這個。"],["邱部長國正：我請人事部門回答，因為他們有作業規定，到底怎麼處理……"],["洪委員申翰：可以。"],["邱部長國正：我請他簡單說明。"],["劉次長沛智：委員好！我是人次室次長。首先跟委員說明，整個出國的規定完全基於安全考量。委員剛剛有提到……"],["洪委員申翰：哪一方面的安全？"],["劉次長沛智：洩密的安全。"],["洪委員申翰：洩密的安全，還是人身安全？你指的是洩密的安全？"],["劉次長沛智：洩密的安全。因為每個人在不同職務的歷練，多多少少都會碰到跟機密有關的事情，我們沒有辦法防範他到第三地之後，會不會轉到其他敵對的國家，我們沒辦法知道，而自由行是完全有可能做到的，跟團至少不會發生這樣的事情。"],["洪委員申翰：但是跟團也可能脫團。"],["劉次長沛智：有可能。"],["洪委員申翰：甚至我們聽過很多很形式主義的方式，他看起來表面上是跟團，其實沒跟團。"],["劉次長沛智：委員，基本上……"],["洪委員申翰：我現在意思是，我同意剛剛國防部說的目的，但怎麼樣精準的有效達成這個目的，而不造成多餘的困擾？現在的問題是這個，但很多人有疑問，這個純粹形式上要求隨團的形式，真的能夠達到你講的這個目的嗎？你們事前沒有跟這個旅行團聯繫，也沒跟導遊聯繫，他出國的時候也沒有相對應的管理機制，事後也沒有回報機制。大家疑問的是這件事情。"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，我瞭解，他們認為你有規定，但既然你又掌握不住，又何必這樣規定！但我要跟委員報告，我要監控的，而且於法有據，我就跟你說於法有據，假使他違背這個規定，不要講說要辦人而是要追究的話，是有法源依據的。"],["洪委員申翰：部長……"],["邱部長國正：假如通通可以自由行，他如果逾越了，我毫無辦法，這我沒有辦法承擔。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我現在不是說要幫大家爭取自由行，不是這個意思，我想爭取的是有效跟精準的管理，我認為可以參考其他單位的一些作法，比方我們看到中科院，基本上它是把人員分不同機密等級，可以自由行，但是不同層級的機密人員有不同相對應的處罰，中科院是這樣。國安局的狀況是護照由局裡統一管理，出國的時候或者出國回來要收回，讓國安局統一管理，一樣的，他可以自由行，他會不會跑到其他國家，護照上都可以看出來，用護照來做事後檢驗，看你有沒有跑到其他國家去。","我現在不是說哪一個方法是最好，但看起來別的單位的作法，基本上是有人員的機密分級，因為我們現在有18萬人，人數其實很多，是不是所有的人都會接觸到同樣類型的機密，然後都用同樣類型的管理方法，這件事情我認為是有討論空間，要不要用機密分級，或者是相對應的分層管理，甚至不同國家有不同管理方式，比方說去中國，我就認為去中國恐怕我們需要管理、管制的密度就要很高，完全同意，但不同國家有不同管理方式，而不是像現在大筆一揮，現在是有這樣一個規定沒錯，可是大家都是形式主義，以致你原本政策的目的看起來也不容易精準達到，然後又造成一些人的困擾，這樣的管理方式好像是有檢討的空間，部長覺得呢？"],["邱部長國正：可以，跟委員報告，假如要分什麼機密等級或層級來界定他出國的同意或廣度的話，國防部現在也是這樣做的……"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["邱部長國正：他們的層級，譬如中將以上或者少將，是有規定的……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我現在的意思是，因為你們現在是要求所有人都一定要隨團，所以我們應該檢討這樣的管理方式是不是有效？我現在不是要大力爭取所有人都可以自由行，不是這個意思，但至少能夠精準的、清楚的達到我們原本管理的目的，但不造成多餘的困擾，這就是我們實施管理最重要的原則跟概念。今天其他單位有所謂機密分級或者分層的管理方式，我覺得國防部應該參考，是不是檢討你們自己的相關規定？","之前在國防及外交委員會我也看過大家有相關的決議，要求國防部檢討這件事情，可是經過了幾年後，我目前收到的國防部回應是：我們沒有要檢討、我們維持現況。而維持現況是因為那些目的，可是那些目的寫出來又讓大家覺得你的機制真的能夠達成這些目的嗎？部長……"],["邱部長國正：我知道，這個可以研討，我並沒有拒絕這件事。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，可不可以在3個月時間有一個檢討，即出國規定跟管制方式有沒有調整的空間跟方向？我可以接受逐步調整，我可以接受！可是如果是要維持現況，它的有效性我是質疑的，我是質疑的！"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解委員講的，就是方法怎麼訂不要緊，但是要有效果。"],["洪委員申翰：至少有效，你的目的能夠達得到，我不是說放鬆就最好、自由行就最好，不是，但該讓人家有自由的部分，我覺得就該讓人家有自由，不要造成多餘的不便跟多餘的困擾，但你達成目的，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好的。"],["洪委員申翰：3個月可不可以提供國防及外交委員會一份報告，就是這部分的檢討報告？好不好？"],["邱部長國正：可以，我們都有紀錄，3個月一定繳交。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪申翰委員，請國防部3個月內提供書面報告給本委員會。","好，接下來進行詢答的委員是陳永康委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","洪申翰","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","林德福","羅智強","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","張啓楷","王鴻薇"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1132001_00016"}},"transcript":{"id":"150474","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"py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737.353, \"end\": 737.373, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"洪\", \"start\": 739.943, \"end\": 739.963, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 739.963, \"end\": 739.983, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"翰\", \"start\": 739.983, \"end\": 740.003, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:00,130\n那個部長請\n\n2\n00:00:13,059 --> 00:00:38,169\n部長這個我們其實在國防部推動很多政策的時候我們其實應該也都會去做一些有效性的評估我們任何政策都確認它有沒有能夠達到我們的政策的目的任何管理的政策有沒有達到管理的目的所以部長同意說我們在軍隊管理裡面應該也要進行這些有效性的評估嗎部長同意嗎\n\n3\n00:00:39,281 --> 00:00:40,222\n我們其實之前我想在國防外交委員會其實已經談過幾次\n\n4\n00:01:01,380 --> 00:01:24,511\n這個國軍人員出國的業務規定裏面這個我們其實裏面一直有明定這個申請出國觀光的人員應該要自行選定經交通部觀光局立案合格且信譽良好的旅行社那出國人應全程隨團活動不得擅自拖隊部長這事情是我們現在這個國防部規定沒有錯對不對對好再往下\n\n5\n00:01:26,893 --> 00:01:53,232\n我們目前有多少人員受到此規範那這個規範跟管理的目的是什麼我跟委員報告這管理的目的我現在問他出國的目的我們通常軍方人員出國不要公務因為他參加旅遊他要去排解心情或跟家庭這都是可以的他如果目的是這樣的話那跟團是我們的要求為了要人員管控加上他有個人因素\n\n6\n00:01:54,052 --> 00:02:14,541\n對,他因為一定要親自去處理,那就他不用跟團什麼,我們也會同樣讓他…部長前面一張,對不起,在前面一張,因為我們這邊是寫說,申請出國觀光的人員,所以我現在當然討論的是出國觀光嘛,就他有觀光需求的,我現在指的是這個嘛,我們是在出國觀光項目上面要求隨團活動嘛,\n\n7\n00:02:15,962 --> 00:02:38,188\n他假設他有什麼什麼他要去就醫等等那是另外一回事我們這邊講是出國觀光嘛再下一張那我們用隨團必須要隨團來管要求他這個出國觀光的人我們的管理的目的是什麼這是一個管理嘛對不對這是我們用規範法規來要求的管理那\n\n8\n00:02:39,110 --> 00:02:47,495\n目的是什麼?還是想跟部長確認一下?我們好的一面來講他有什麼問題我們可以了解去幫他協助他這就是目的阿\n\n9\n00:02:48,683 --> 00:03:10,041\n不然我們現在看到下一張現在看起來在2023年11月你們有一份這個記錄裡面是有講到說我們維持現狀就是要隨團管理第一個是防止人員洩密第二個覺得跟團比較安全第三個緊急狀況容易掌握大概這三個目的這是你們寫給我們的\n\n10\n00:03:11,883 --> 00:03:24,111\n但我想確認一件事情是說以我們現在管理的方法你說要防止洩密比方說我就很好奇說其實他假設在出國觀光之前我們會跟他的旅行社\n\n11\n00:03:25,339 --> 00:03:27,341\n在出國前我們不會跟他聯繫第二個那在出國的時候\n\n12\n00:03:49,781 --> 00:04:10,128\n如果這個我們的這個軍人他說今天我很不舒服我要在旅館裡面休息我可能會離團一段時間這個我們其實也沒有什麼方法可以去掌握嘛對不對沒錯他也不用去回報嘛這是在出國的時候那再來事後的時候他需要再回報嗎\n\n13\n00:04:16,180 --> 00:04:35,807\n他說我在迪士尼行程的時候我拖隊了8個小時因為我可能種種種原因我在旅館我沒有跟著團體去迪士尼也沒有事後回報嘛對不對那這時候就讓我們覺得好奇了我們現在強制要求人家一定要隨團可是我事前\n\n14\n00:04:36,909 --> 00:04:37,910\n你最喜歡隨團的話你有任何的遇到困難\n\n15\n00:04:57,193 --> 00:04:57,553\n部長我完全同意應該管\n\n16\n00:05:22,725 --> 00:05:40,666\n因為我們真的現在擔心安全等等洩密的事情我完全同意這件事情我們現在討論的事情是怎麼樣做能夠有效無效的管理該被調整我們目的要達到目的的該更有效的達到目的我今天想跟部長討論的是這件事情\n\n17\n00:05:42,876 --> 00:06:08,672\n確實現在有很多我們的國軍士兵他們要出國包括我剛剛在前面我們大概有18萬人被管制18萬人這些被管制的這些人他要出國的時候他真的有一些我希望能夠跟家我希望家庭旅遊我希望我跟我的女朋友一起出去對不起現在沒有辦法他一定要跟團所以這其實是有些抱怨跟團的意思\n\n18\n00:06:09,516 --> 00:06:36,182\n這其實是有一些抱怨但我現在怕的是說我們現在又強制要求他跟團所以大家要去符合這個形式上面的要求可是實質上面我們管理的目的防止他洩密或者我說我是擔心他的安全又在跟團這件事情裡面又達不到真正達到這個目的大家就會對於這個管理的手段會有很多存疑會有很多疑問阿你這是不是一個有效的管理去達到你原本的目的部長現在大家的問題是這個\n\n19\n00:06:37,352 --> 00:06:52,349\n我請人事部,因為他們有作業規定,我請他做簡單做說明委員好,我是人事室次長首先跟委員說明,整個出國這個規定完全基於安全的考量\n\n20\n00:06:52,890 --> 00:07:11,498\n那委員剛剛有提到說哪一方面的安全說瀉密的安全瀉密的安全還是人身安全瀉密的安全因為每個人在不同植物的歷練多多少少都會碰到跟機密有關的事情我們沒有辦法防範說他到第三地之後會不會轉到其他\n\n21\n00:07:12,278 --> 00:07:14,621\n但是跟團他也可能脫團啊甚至我們也聽過很多很形式主義的方式\n\n22\n00:07:28,407 --> 00:07:42,957\n他看起來表面上是跟團,其實沒跟團啊我現在意思是說我們達成這個目的,剛剛國防部說的目的我同意我們怎麼樣精準的有效達成這個目的而不造成多餘的困擾現在的問題是這個\n\n23\n00:07:46,101 --> 00:08:08,499\n但我現在很多人就有疑問我們這個只是純粹這個純粹形式上要求隨團的形式真的能夠達到你講的這個目的嗎我們事前也沒有跟這個旅行團聯繫也沒跟導遊聯繫這個他出國的時候我們也沒有相對應的管理機制事後也沒有回報機制\n\n24\n00:08:11,189 --> 00:08:12,411\n大家疑問的是這件事情\n\n25\n00:08:31,755 --> 00:08:55,432\n我現在不是說我要幫大家爭取自由行不是這個意思我想爭取的是有效跟精準的管理下面我認為可以參考一些其他單位的做法比方說我們看到中科院基本上他是把人員分不同機密的機密等級\n\n26\n00:08:57,435 --> 00:09:14,017\n你是可以出遊行但是不同機密的人員相對程序有不同相對應的處罰中科院是這樣下一張那國安局的狀況是國安局的狀況是說他的護照要由他們的局來做統一的管理\n\n27\n00:09:16,007 --> 00:09:27,024\n出國的時候或者是出國回來要收回讓國安局統一的管理一樣他是可以出自由行所以他會跑到其他國家去那護照上面看得出來\n\n28\n00:09:28,683 --> 00:09:53,569\n用護照這個事情的事後檢驗來看你有沒有跑到其他國家去我現在不是說哪一個方法是最好的但看起來別的單位的做法基本上它是分機密分級人員的機密分因為我們現在18萬人數其實很多是不是所有的人都會接觸到同樣類型的機密都用同樣類型的管理的方法這件事情我認為是有討論的空間\n\n29\n00:09:55,863 --> 00:10:24,581\n要不要用機密分級或者是相對應的分層的管理甚至不同國家有不同管理的方式比方說這樣去中國我就認為去中國恐怕我們需要管理的密度管制的密度就要很高我完全同意但不同國家有不同管理的方式而不是現在你大筆一揮現在在那個上面有一個這樣子的規定沒有錯可是大家都形式主義所以你原本政策的目的看起來也不容易精準達到\n\n30\n00:10:25,967 --> 00:10:51,056\n可是又造成了一些人的困擾那這個管理的形式我認為好像是有可以檢討的空間,部長覺得?我跟委員報告,假如要分什麼機密等級或層級來進行他出國的同意或者這個廣度的話我們國防部現在也是這樣做的他每個層級,什麼中將以上或者少將他有規定的部長,所以我現在意思是跟你說你現在是要求所有的人都一定要隨團嗎?那\n\n31\n00:10:53,913 --> 00:11:01,852\n現在應該來檢討這個管理的方式是不是有效嘛我現在不是說我現在大力爭取所有人都可以自由行不是這個意思\n\n32\n00:11:03,067 --> 00:11:28,747\n但是至少能夠精準的清楚的達到我們原本管理的目的但不造成多餘的困擾嘛這就是我們實施管理最重要的原則跟概念嘛那今天其他的單位有所謂機密分級或者是分層的管理的方式我自己覺得國防部應該來參考是不是來檢討我們自己相關的規定之前在國防外交委員會裡面我也看過大家有相關的決議\n\n33\n00:11:29,828 --> 00:11:45,200\n要求國防部來檢討這件事情可是經過了幾年後我目前收到的國防部的回應是我們沒有要檢討我們維持現況維持現況是因為那些目的可是那些目的寫出來又讓人家覺得你的機制真的能夠達成這些目的嗎部長我知道那就可以研討嘛我並沒有拒絕這種事情部長可不可以三個月的時間\n\n34\n00:11:55,739 --> 00:12:17,373\n有一個檢討相關的這個出國的規定跟管制的方式有沒有調整的空間跟方向我可以接受逐步調整我可以接受可是我覺得以現在要維持現況它的有效性我是質疑的我是質疑的我了解委員也這樣說就方法怎麼定標準大概有效果至少有效你的目的能夠達得到\n\n35\n00:12:19,943 --> 00:12:20,003\n洪申翰\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t130\t那個部長請\n13059\t38169\t部長 這個我們其實在國防部推動很多政策的時候我們其實應該也都會去做一些有效性的評估我們任何政策都確認它有沒有能夠達到我們的政策的目的任何管理的政策有沒有達到管理的目的所以部長同意說我們在軍隊管理裡面應該也要進行這些有效性的評估嗎部長同意嗎\n39281\t40222\t我們其實之前我想在國防外交委員會其實已經談過幾次\n61380\t84511\t這個國軍人員出國的業務規定裏面這個我們其實裏面一直有明定這個申請出國觀光的人員應該要自行選定經交通部觀光局立案合格且信譽良好的旅行社那出國人應全程隨團活動不得擅自拖隊部長這事情是我們現在這個國防部規定沒有錯對不對對好再往下\n86893\t113232\t我們目前有多少人員受到此規範那這個規範跟管理的目的是什麼我跟委員報告這管理的目的我現在問他出國的目的我們通常軍方人員出國不要公務因為他參加旅遊他要去排解心情或跟家庭這都是可以的他如果目的是這樣的話那跟團是我們的要求為了要人員管控加上他有個人因素\n114052\t134541\t對,他因為一定要親自去處理,那就他不用跟團什麼,我們也會同樣讓他…部長前面一張,對不起,在前面一張,因為我們這邊是寫說,申請出國觀光的人員,所以我現在當然討論的是出國觀光嘛,就他有觀光需求的,我現在指的是這個嘛,我們是在出國觀光項目上面要求隨團活動嘛,\n135962\t158188\t他假設他有什麼什麼他要去就醫等等那是另外一回事我們這邊講是出國觀光嘛再下一張那我們用隨團必須要隨團來管要求他這個出國觀光的人我們的管理的目的是什麼這是一個管理嘛對不對這是我們用規範法規來要求的管理那\n159110\t167495\t目的是什麼?還是想跟部長確認一下?我們好的一面來講他有什麼問題我們可以了解去幫他協助他這就是目的阿\n168683\t190041\t不然我們現在看到下一張現在看起來在2023年11月你們有一份這個記錄裡面是有講到說我們維持現狀就是要隨團管理第一個是防止人員洩密第二個覺得跟團比較安全第三個緊急狀況容易掌握大概這三個目的這是你們寫給我們的\n191883\t204111\t但我想確認一件事情是說以我們現在管理的方法你說要防止洩密比方說我就很好奇說其實他假設在出國觀光之前我們會跟他的旅行社\n205339\t207341\t在出國前我們不會跟他聯繫第二個那在出國的時候\n229781\t250128\t如果這個我們的這個軍人他說今天我很不舒服我要在旅館裡面休息我可能會離團一段時間這個我們其實也沒有什麼方法可以去掌握嘛對不對沒錯他也不用去回報嘛這是在出國的時候那再來事後的時候他需要再回報嗎\n256180\t275807\t他說我在迪士尼行程的時候我拖隊了8個小時因為我可能種種種原因我在旅館我沒有跟著團體去迪士尼也沒有事後回報嘛 對不對那這時候就讓我們覺得好奇了我們現在強制要求人家一定要隨團可是我事前\n276909\t277910\t你最喜歡隨團的話你有任何的遇到困難\n297193\t297553\t部長我完全同意應該管\n322725\t340666\t因為我們真的現在擔心安全等等洩密的事情我完全同意這件事情我們現在討論的事情是怎麼樣做能夠有效無效的管理該被調整我們目的要達到目的的該更有效的達到目的我今天想跟部長討論的是這件事情\n342876\t368672\t確實現在有很多我們的國軍士兵他們要出國包括我剛剛在前面我們大概有18萬人被管制18萬人這些被管制的這些人他要出國的時候他真的有一些我希望能夠跟家我希望家庭旅遊我希望我跟我的女朋友一起出去對不起現在沒有辦法他一定要跟團所以這其實是有些抱怨跟團的意思\n369516\t396182\t這其實是有一些抱怨但我現在怕的是說我們現在又強制要求他跟團所以大家要去符合這個形式上面的要求可是實質上面我們管理的目的防止他洩密或者我說我是擔心他的安全又在跟團這件事情裡面又達不到真正達到這個目的大家就會對於這個管理的手段會有很多存疑會有很多疑問阿你這是不是一個有效的管理去達到你原本的目的部長現在大家的問題是這個\n397352\t412349\t我請人事部,因為他們有作業規定,我請他做簡單做說明委員好,我是人事室次長首先跟委員說明,整個出國這個規定完全基於安全的考量\n412890\t431498\t那委員剛剛有提到說哪一方面的安全說瀉密的安全瀉密的安全還是人身安全瀉密的安全因為每個人在不同植物的歷練多多少少都會碰到跟機密有關的事情我們沒有辦法防範說他到第三地之後會不會轉到其他\n432278\t434621\t但是跟團他也可能脫團啊甚至我們也聽過很多很形式主義的方式\n448407\t462957\t他看起來表面上是跟團,其實沒跟團啊我現在意思是說我們達成這個目的,剛剛國防部說的目的我同意我們怎麼樣精準的有效達成這個目的而不造成多餘的困擾現在的問題是這個\n466101\t488499\t但我現在很多人就有疑問我們這個只是純粹這個純粹形式上要求隨團的形式真的能夠達到你講的這個目的嗎我們事前也沒有跟這個旅行團聯繫也沒跟導遊聯繫這個他出國的時候我們也沒有相對應的管理機制事後也沒有回報機制\n491189\t492411\t大家疑問的是這件事情\n511755\t535432\t我現在不是說我要幫大家爭取自由行不是這個意思我想爭取的是有效跟精準的管理下面我認為可以參考一些其他單位的做法比方說我們看到中科院基本上他是把人員分不同機密的機密等級\n537435\t554017\t你是可以出遊行但是不同機密的人員相對程序有不同相對應的處罰中科院是這樣 下一張那國安局的狀況是國安局的狀況是說他的護照要由他們的局來做統一的管理\n556007\t567024\t出國的時候或者是出國回來要收回讓國安局統一的管理一樣他是可以出自由行所以他會跑到其他國家去那護照上面看得出來\n568683\t593569\t用護照這個事情的事後檢驗來看你有沒有跑到其他國家去我現在不是說哪一個方法是最好的但看起來別的單位的做法基本上它是分機密分級人員的機密分因為我們現在18萬人數其實很多是不是所有的人都會接觸到同樣類型的機密都用同樣類型的管理的方法這件事情我認為是有討論的空間\n595863\t624581\t要不要用機密分級或者是相對應的分層的管理甚至不同國家有不同管理的方式比方說這樣去中國我就認為去中國恐怕我們需要管理的密度管制的密度就要很高我完全同意但不同國家有不同管理的方式而不是現在你大筆一揮現在在那個上面有一個這樣子的規定沒有錯可是大家都形式主義所以你原本政策的目的看起來也不容易精準達到\n625967\t651056\t可是又造成了一些人的困擾那這個管理的形式我認為好像是有可以檢討的空間,部長覺得?我跟委員報告,假如要分什麼機密等級或層級來進行他出國的同意或者這個廣度的話我們國防部現在也是這樣做的他每個層級,什麼中將以上或者少將他有規定的部長,所以我現在意思是跟你說你現在是要求所有的人都一定要隨團嗎?那\n653913\t661852\t現在應該來檢討這個管理的方式是不是有效嘛我現在不是說我現在大力爭取所有人都可以自由行不是這個意思\n663067\t688747\t但是至少能夠精準的清楚的達到我們原本管理的目的但不造成多餘的困擾嘛這就是我們實施管理最重要的原則跟概念嘛那今天其他的單位有所謂機密分級或者是分層的管理的方式我自己覺得國防部應該來參考是不是來檢討我們自己相關的規定之前在國防外交委員會裡面我也看過大家有相關的決議\n689828\t705200\t要求國防部來檢討這件事情可是經過了幾年後我目前收到的國防部的回應是我們沒有要檢討我們維持現況維持現況是因為那些目的可是那些目的寫出來又讓人家覺得你的機制真的能夠達成這些目的嗎部長我知道那就可以研討嘛我並沒有拒絕這種事情部長可不可以三個月的時間\n715739\t737373\t有一個檢討相關的這個出國的規定跟管制的方式有沒有調整的空間跟方向我可以接受逐步調整我可以接受可是我覺得以現在要維持現況它的有效性我是質疑的我是質疑的我了解委員也這樣說就方法怎麼定標準大概有效果至少有效你的目的能夠達得到\n739943\t740003\t洪申翰\n","txt":"那個部長請\n部長 這個我們其實在國防部推動很多政策的時候我們其實應該也都會去做一些有效性的評估我們任何政策都確認它有沒有能夠達到我們的政策的目的任何管理的政策有沒有達到管理的目的所以部長同意說我們在軍隊管理裡面應該也要進行這些有效性的評估嗎部長同意嗎\n我們其實之前我想在國防外交委員會其實已經談過幾次\n這個國軍人員出國的業務規定裏面這個我們其實裏面一直有明定這個申請出國觀光的人員應該要自行選定經交通部觀光局立案合格且信譽良好的旅行社那出國人應全程隨團活動不得擅自拖隊部長這事情是我們現在這個國防部規定沒有錯對不對對好再往下\n我們目前有多少人員受到此規範那這個規範跟管理的目的是什麼我跟委員報告這管理的目的我現在問他出國的目的我們通常軍方人員出國不要公務因為他參加旅遊他要去排解心情或跟家庭這都是可以的他如果目的是這樣的話那跟團是我們的要求為了要人員管控加上他有個人因素\n對,他因為一定要親自去處理,那就他不用跟團什麼,我們也會同樣讓他…部長前面一張,對不起,在前面一張,因為我們這邊是寫說,申請出國觀光的人員,所以我現在當然討論的是出國觀光嘛,就他有觀光需求的,我現在指的是這個嘛,我們是在出國觀光項目上面要求隨團活動嘛,\n他假設他有什麼什麼他要去就醫等等那是另外一回事我們這邊講是出國觀光嘛再下一張那我們用隨團必須要隨團來管要求他這個出國觀光的人我們的管理的目的是什麼這是一個管理嘛對不對這是我們用規範法規來要求的管理那\n目的是什麼?還是想跟部長確認一下?我們好的一面來講他有什麼問題我們可以了解去幫他協助他這就是目的阿\n不然我們現在看到下一張現在看起來在2023年11月你們有一份這個記錄裡面是有講到說我們維持現狀就是要隨團管理第一個是防止人員洩密第二個覺得跟團比較安全第三個緊急狀況容易掌握大概這三個目的這是你們寫給我們的\n但我想確認一件事情是說以我們現在管理的方法你說要防止洩密比方說我就很好奇說其實他假設在出國觀光之前我們會跟他的旅行社\n在出國前我們不會跟他聯繫第二個那在出國的時候\n如果這個我們的這個軍人他說今天我很不舒服我要在旅館裡面休息我可能會離團一段時間這個我們其實也沒有什麼方法可以去掌握嘛對不對沒錯他也不用去回報嘛這是在出國的時候那再來事後的時候他需要再回報嗎\n他說我在迪士尼行程的時候我拖隊了8個小時因為我可能種種種原因我在旅館我沒有跟著團體去迪士尼也沒有事後回報嘛 對不對那這時候就讓我們覺得好奇了我們現在強制要求人家一定要隨團可是我事前\n你最喜歡隨團的話你有任何的遇到困難\n部長我完全同意應該管\n因為我們真的現在擔心安全等等洩密的事情我完全同意這件事情我們現在討論的事情是怎麼樣做能夠有效無效的管理該被調整我們目的要達到目的的該更有效的達到目的我今天想跟部長討論的是這件事情\n確實現在有很多我們的國軍士兵他們要出國包括我剛剛在前面我們大概有18萬人被管制18萬人這些被管制的這些人他要出國的時候他真的有一些我希望能夠跟家我希望家庭旅遊我希望我跟我的女朋友一起出去對不起現在沒有辦法他一定要跟團所以這其實是有些抱怨跟團的意思\n這其實是有一些抱怨但我現在怕的是說我們現在又強制要求他跟團所以大家要去符合這個形式上面的要求可是實質上面我們管理的目的防止他洩密或者我說我是擔心他的安全又在跟團這件事情裡面又達不到真正達到這個目的大家就會對於這個管理的手段會有很多存疑會有很多疑問阿你這是不是一個有效的管理去達到你原本的目的部長現在大家的問題是這個\n我請人事部,因為他們有作業規定,我請他做簡單做說明委員好,我是人事室次長首先跟委員說明,整個出國這個規定完全基於安全的考量\n那委員剛剛有提到說哪一方面的安全說瀉密的安全瀉密的安全還是人身安全瀉密的安全因為每個人在不同植物的歷練多多少少都會碰到跟機密有關的事情我們沒有辦法防範說他到第三地之後會不會轉到其他\n但是跟團他也可能脫團啊甚至我們也聽過很多很形式主義的方式\n他看起來表面上是跟團,其實沒跟團啊我現在意思是說我們達成這個目的,剛剛國防部說的目的我同意我們怎麼樣精準的有效達成這個目的而不造成多餘的困擾現在的問題是這個\n但我現在很多人就有疑問我們這個只是純粹這個純粹形式上要求隨團的形式真的能夠達到你講的這個目的嗎我們事前也沒有跟這個旅行團聯繫也沒跟導遊聯繫這個他出國的時候我們也沒有相對應的管理機制事後也沒有回報機制\n大家疑問的是這件事情\n我現在不是說我要幫大家爭取自由行不是這個意思我想爭取的是有效跟精準的管理下面我認為可以參考一些其他單位的做法比方說我們看到中科院基本上他是把人員分不同機密的機密等級\n你是可以出遊行但是不同機密的人員相對程序有不同相對應的處罰中科院是這樣 下一張那國安局的狀況是國安局的狀況是說他的護照要由他們的局來做統一的管理\n出國的時候或者是出國回來要收回讓國安局統一的管理一樣他是可以出自由行所以他會跑到其他國家去那護照上面看得出來\n用護照這個事情的事後檢驗來看你有沒有跑到其他國家去我現在不是說哪一個方法是最好的但看起來別的單位的做法基本上它是分機密分級人員的機密分因為我們現在18萬人數其實很多是不是所有的人都會接觸到同樣類型的機密都用同樣類型的管理的方法這件事情我認為是有討論的空間\n要不要用機密分級或者是相對應的分層的管理甚至不同國家有不同管理的方式比方說這樣去中國我就認為去中國恐怕我們需要管理的密度管制的密度就要很高我完全同意但不同國家有不同管理的方式而不是現在你大筆一揮現在在那個上面有一個這樣子的規定沒有錯可是大家都形式主義所以你原本政策的目的看起來也不容易精準達到\n可是又造成了一些人的困擾那這個管理的形式我認為好像是有可以檢討的空間,部長覺得?我跟委員報告,假如要分什麼機密等級或層級來進行他出國的同意或者這個廣度的話我們國防部現在也是這樣做的他每個層級,什麼中將以上或者少將他有規定的部長,所以我現在意思是跟你說你現在是要求所有的人都一定要隨團嗎?那\n現在應該來檢討這個管理的方式是不是有效嘛我現在不是說我現在大力爭取所有人都可以自由行不是這個意思\n但是至少能夠精準的清楚的達到我們原本管理的目的但不造成多餘的困擾嘛這就是我們實施管理最重要的原則跟概念嘛那今天其他的單位有所謂機密分級或者是分層的管理的方式我自己覺得國防部應該來參考是不是來檢討我們自己相關的規定之前在國防外交委員會裡面我也看過大家有相關的決議\n要求國防部來檢討這件事情可是經過了幾年後我目前收到的國防部的回應是我們沒有要檢討我們維持現況維持現況是因為那些目的可是那些目的寫出來又讓人家覺得你的機制真的能夠達成這些目的嗎部長我知道那就可以研討嘛我並沒有拒絕這種事情部長可不可以三個月的時間\n有一個檢討相關的這個出國的規定跟管制的方式有沒有調整的空間跟方向我可以接受逐步調整我可以接受可是我覺得以現在要維持現況它的有效性我是質疑的我是質疑的我了解委員也這樣說就方法怎麼定標準大概有效果至少有效你的目的能夠達得到\n洪申翰\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:00.130\n那個部長請\n\n00:13.059 --> 00:38.169\n部長這個我們其實在國防部推動很多政策的時候我們其實應該也都會去做一些有效性的評估我們任何政策都確認它有沒有能夠達到我們的政策的目的任何管理的政策有沒有達到管理的目的所以部長同意說我們在軍隊管理裡面應該也要進行這些有效性的評估嗎部長同意嗎\n\n00:39.281 --> 00:40.222\n我們其實之前我想在國防外交委員會其實已經談過幾次\n\n01:01.380 --> 01:24.511\n這個國軍人員出國的業務規定裏面這個我們其實裏面一直有明定這個申請出國觀光的人員應該要自行選定經交通部觀光局立案合格且信譽良好的旅行社那出國人應全程隨團活動不得擅自拖隊部長這事情是我們現在這個國防部規定沒有錯對不對對好再往下\n\n01:26.893 --> 01:53.232\n我們目前有多少人員受到此規範那這個規範跟管理的目的是什麼我跟委員報告這管理的目的我現在問他出國的目的我們通常軍方人員出國不要公務因為他參加旅遊他要去排解心情或跟家庭這都是可以的他如果目的是這樣的話那跟團是我們的要求為了要人員管控加上他有個人因素\n\n01:54.052 --> 02:14.541\n對,他因為一定要親自去處理,那就他不用跟團什麼,我們也會同樣讓他…部長前面一張,對不起,在前面一張,因為我們這邊是寫說,申請出國觀光的人員,所以我現在當然討論的是出國觀光嘛,就他有觀光需求的,我現在指的是這個嘛,我們是在出國觀光項目上面要求隨團活動嘛,\n\n02:15.962 --> 02:38.188\n他假設他有什麼什麼他要去就醫等等那是另外一回事我們這邊講是出國觀光嘛再下一張那我們用隨團必須要隨團來管要求他這個出國觀光的人我們的管理的目的是什麼這是一個管理嘛對不對這是我們用規範法規來要求的管理那\n\n02:39.110 --> 02:47.495\n目的是什麼?還是想跟部長確認一下?我們好的一面來講他有什麼問題我們可以了解去幫他協助他這就是目的阿\n\n02:48.683 --> 03:10.041\n不然我們現在看到下一張現在看起來在2023年11月你們有一份這個記錄裡面是有講到說我們維持現狀就是要隨團管理第一個是防止人員洩密第二個覺得跟團比較安全第三個緊急狀況容易掌握大概這三個目的這是你們寫給我們的\n\n03:11.883 --> 03:24.111\n但我想確認一件事情是說以我們現在管理的方法你說要防止洩密比方說我就很好奇說其實他假設在出國觀光之前我們會跟他的旅行社\n\n03:25.339 --> 03:27.341\n在出國前我們不會跟他聯繫第二個那在出國的時候\n\n03:49.781 --> 04:10.128\n如果這個我們的這個軍人他說今天我很不舒服我要在旅館裡面休息我可能會離團一段時間這個我們其實也沒有什麼方法可以去掌握嘛對不對沒錯他也不用去回報嘛這是在出國的時候那再來事後的時候他需要再回報嗎\n\n04:16.180 --> 04:35.807\n他說我在迪士尼行程的時候我拖隊了8個小時因為我可能種種種原因我在旅館我沒有跟著團體去迪士尼也沒有事後回報嘛對不對那這時候就讓我們覺得好奇了我們現在強制要求人家一定要隨團可是我事前\n\n04:36.909 --> 04:37.910\n你最喜歡隨團的話你有任何的遇到困難\n\n04:57.193 --> 04:57.553\n部長我完全同意應該管\n\n05:22.725 --> 05:40.666\n因為我們真的現在擔心安全等等洩密的事情我完全同意這件事情我們現在討論的事情是怎麼樣做能夠有效無效的管理該被調整我們目的要達到目的的該更有效的達到目的我今天想跟部長討論的是這件事情\n\n05:42.876 --> 06:08.672\n確實現在有很多我們的國軍士兵他們要出國包括我剛剛在前面我們大概有18萬人被管制18萬人這些被管制的這些人他要出國的時候他真的有一些我希望能夠跟家我希望家庭旅遊我希望我跟我的女朋友一起出去對不起現在沒有辦法他一定要跟團所以這其實是有些抱怨跟團的意思\n\n06:09.516 --> 06:36.182\n這其實是有一些抱怨但我現在怕的是說我們現在又強制要求他跟團所以大家要去符合這個形式上面的要求可是實質上面我們管理的目的防止他洩密或者我說我是擔心他的安全又在跟團這件事情裡面又達不到真正達到這個目的大家就會對於這個管理的手段會有很多存疑會有很多疑問阿你這是不是一個有效的管理去達到你原本的目的部長現在大家的問題是這個\n\n06:37.352 --> 06:52.349\n我請人事部,因為他們有作業規定,我請他做簡單做說明委員好,我是人事室次長首先跟委員說明,整個出國這個規定完全基於安全的考量\n\n06:52.890 --> 07:11.498\n那委員剛剛有提到說哪一方面的安全說瀉密的安全瀉密的安全還是人身安全瀉密的安全因為每個人在不同植物的歷練多多少少都會碰到跟機密有關的事情我們沒有辦法防範說他到第三地之後會不會轉到其他\n\n07:12.278 --> 07:14.621\n但是跟團他也可能脫團啊甚至我們也聽過很多很形式主義的方式\n\n07:28.407 --> 07:42.957\n他看起來表面上是跟團,其實沒跟團啊我現在意思是說我們達成這個目的,剛剛國防部說的目的我同意我們怎麼樣精準的有效達成這個目的而不造成多餘的困擾現在的問題是這個\n\n07:46.101 --> 08:08.499\n但我現在很多人就有疑問我們這個只是純粹這個純粹形式上要求隨團的形式真的能夠達到你講的這個目的嗎我們事前也沒有跟這個旅行團聯繫也沒跟導遊聯繫這個他出國的時候我們也沒有相對應的管理機制事後也沒有回報機制\n\n08:11.189 --> 08:12.411\n大家疑問的是這件事情\n\n08:31.755 --> 08:55.432\n我現在不是說我要幫大家爭取自由行不是這個意思我想爭取的是有效跟精準的管理下面我認為可以參考一些其他單位的做法比方說我們看到中科院基本上他是把人員分不同機密的機密等級\n\n08:57.435 --> 09:14.017\n你是可以出遊行但是不同機密的人員相對程序有不同相對應的處罰中科院是這樣下一張那國安局的狀況是國安局的狀況是說他的護照要由他們的局來做統一的管理\n\n09:16.007 --> 09:27.024\n出國的時候或者是出國回來要收回讓國安局統一的管理一樣他是可以出自由行所以他會跑到其他國家去那護照上面看得出來\n\n09:28.683 --> 09:53.569\n用護照這個事情的事後檢驗來看你有沒有跑到其他國家去我現在不是說哪一個方法是最好的但看起來別的單位的做法基本上它是分機密分級人員的機密分因為我們現在18萬人數其實很多是不是所有的人都會接觸到同樣類型的機密都用同樣類型的管理的方法這件事情我認為是有討論的空間\n\n09:55.863 --> 10:24.581\n要不要用機密分級或者是相對應的分層的管理甚至不同國家有不同管理的方式比方說這樣去中國我就認為去中國恐怕我們需要管理的密度管制的密度就要很高我完全同意但不同國家有不同管理的方式而不是現在你大筆一揮現在在那個上面有一個這樣子的規定沒有錯可是大家都形式主義所以你原本政策的目的看起來也不容易精準達到\n\n10:25.967 --> 10:51.056\n可是又造成了一些人的困擾那這個管理的形式我認為好像是有可以檢討的空間,部長覺得?我跟委員報告,假如要分什麼機密等級或層級來進行他出國的同意或者這個廣度的話我們國防部現在也是這樣做的他每個層級,什麼中將以上或者少將他有規定的部長,所以我現在意思是跟你說你現在是要求所有的人都一定要隨團嗎?那\n\n10:53.913 --> 11:01.852\n現在應該來檢討這個管理的方式是不是有效嘛我現在不是說我現在大力爭取所有人都可以自由行不是這個意思\n\n11:03.067 --> 11:28.747\n但是至少能夠精準的清楚的達到我們原本管理的目的但不造成多餘的困擾嘛這就是我們實施管理最重要的原則跟概念嘛那今天其他的單位有所謂機密分級或者是分層的管理的方式我自己覺得國防部應該來參考是不是來檢討我們自己相關的規定之前在國防外交委員會裡面我也看過大家有相關的決議\n\n11:29.828 --> 11:45.200\n要求國防部來檢討這件事情可是經過了幾年後我目前收到的國防部的回應是我們沒有要檢討我們維持現況維持現況是因為那些目的可是那些目的寫出來又讓人家覺得你的機制真的能夠達成這些目的嗎部長我知道那就可以研討嘛我並沒有拒絕這種事情部長可不可以三個月的時間\n\n11:55.739 --> 12:17.373\n有一個檢討相關的這個出國的規定跟管制的方式有沒有調整的空間跟方向我可以接受逐步調整我可以接受可是我覺得以現在要維持現況它的有效性我是質疑的我是質疑的我了解委員也這樣說就方法怎麼定標準大概有效果至少有效你的目的能夠達得到\n\n12:19.943 --> 12:20.003\n洪申翰\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.13,"text":"那個部長請"},{"start":13.059,"end":38.169,"text":"部長 這個我們其實在國防部推動很多政策的時候我們其實應該也都會去做一些有效性的評估我們任何政策都確認它有沒有能夠達到我們的政策的目的任何管理的政策有沒有達到管理的目的所以部長同意說我們在軍隊管理裡面應該也要進行這些有效性的評估嗎部長同意嗎"},{"start":39.281,"end":40.222,"text":"我們其實之前我想在國防外交委員會其實已經談過幾次"},{"start":61.38,"end":84.511,"text":"這個國軍人員出國的業務規定裏面這個我們其實裏面一直有明定這個申請出國觀光的人員應該要自行選定經交通部觀光局立案合格且信譽良好的旅行社那出國人應全程隨團活動不得擅自拖隊部長這事情是我們現在這個國防部規定沒有錯對不對對好再往下"},{"start":86.893,"end":113.232,"text":"我們目前有多少人員受到此規範那這個規範跟管理的目的是什麼我跟委員報告這管理的目的我現在問他出國的目的我們通常軍方人員出國不要公務因為他參加旅遊他要去排解心情或跟家庭這都是可以的他如果目的是這樣的話那跟團是我們的要求為了要人員管控加上他有個人因素"},{"start":114.052,"end":134.541,"text":"對,他因為一定要親自去處理,那就他不用跟團什麼,我們也會同樣讓他…部長前面一張,對不起,在前面一張,因為我們這邊是寫說,申請出國觀光的人員,所以我現在當然討論的是出國觀光嘛,就他有觀光需求的,我現在指的是這個嘛,我們是在出國觀光項目上面要求隨團活動嘛,"},{"start":135.962,"end":158.188,"text":"他假設他有什麼什麼他要去就醫等等那是另外一回事我們這邊講是出國觀光嘛再下一張那我們用隨團必須要隨團來管要求他這個出國觀光的人我們的管理的目的是什麼這是一個管理嘛對不對這是我們用規範法規來要求的管理那"},{"start":159.11,"end":167.495,"text":"目的是什麼?還是想跟部長確認一下?我們好的一面來講他有什麼問題我們可以了解去幫他協助他這就是目的阿"},{"start":168.683,"end":190.041,"text":"不然我們現在看到下一張現在看起來在2023年11月你們有一份這個記錄裡面是有講到說我們維持現狀就是要隨團管理第一個是防止人員洩密第二個覺得跟團比較安全第三個緊急狀況容易掌握大概這三個目的這是你們寫給我們的"},{"start":191.883,"end":204.111,"text":"但我想確認一件事情是說以我們現在管理的方法你說要防止洩密比方說我就很好奇說其實他假設在出國觀光之前我們會跟他的旅行社"},{"start":205.339,"end":207.341,"text":"在出國前我們不會跟他聯繫第二個那在出國的時候"},{"start":229.781,"end":250.128,"text":"如果這個我們的這個軍人他說今天我很不舒服我要在旅館裡面休息我可能會離團一段時間這個我們其實也沒有什麼方法可以去掌握嘛對不對沒錯他也不用去回報嘛這是在出國的時候那再來事後的時候他需要再回報嗎"},{"start":256.18,"end":275.807,"text":"他說我在迪士尼行程的時候我拖隊了8個小時因為我可能種種種原因我在旅館我沒有跟著團體去迪士尼也沒有事後回報嘛 對不對那這時候就讓我們覺得好奇了我們現在強制要求人家一定要隨團可是我事前"},{"start":276.909,"end":277.91,"text":"你最喜歡隨團的話你有任何的遇到困難"},{"start":297.193,"end":297.553,"text":"部長我完全同意應該管"},{"start":322.725,"end":340.666,"text":"因為我們真的現在擔心安全等等洩密的事情我完全同意這件事情我們現在討論的事情是怎麼樣做能夠有效無效的管理該被調整我們目的要達到目的的該更有效的達到目的我今天想跟部長討論的是這件事情"},{"start":342.876,"end":368.672,"text":"確實現在有很多我們的國軍士兵他們要出國包括我剛剛在前面我們大概有18萬人被管制18萬人這些被管制的這些人他要出國的時候他真的有一些我希望能夠跟家我希望家庭旅遊我希望我跟我的女朋友一起出去對不起現在沒有辦法他一定要跟團所以這其實是有些抱怨跟團的意思"},{"start":369.516,"end":396.182,"text":"這其實是有一些抱怨但我現在怕的是說我們現在又強制要求他跟團所以大家要去符合這個形式上面的要求可是實質上面我們管理的目的防止他洩密或者我說我是擔心他的安全又在跟團這件事情裡面又達不到真正達到這個目的大家就會對於這個管理的手段會有很多存疑會有很多疑問阿你這是不是一個有效的管理去達到你原本的目的部長現在大家的問題是這個"},{"start":397.352,"end":412.349,"text":"我請人事部,因為他們有作業規定,我請他做簡單做說明委員好,我是人事室次長首先跟委員說明,整個出國這個規定完全基於安全的考量"},{"start":412.89,"end":431.498,"text":"那委員剛剛有提到說哪一方面的安全說瀉密的安全瀉密的安全還是人身安全瀉密的安全因為每個人在不同植物的歷練多多少少都會碰到跟機密有關的事情我們沒有辦法防範說他到第三地之後會不會轉到其他"},{"start":432.278,"end":434.621,"text":"但是跟團他也可能脫團啊甚至我們也聽過很多很形式主義的方式"},{"start":448.407,"end":462.957,"text":"他看起來表面上是跟團,其實沒跟團啊我現在意思是說我們達成這個目的,剛剛國防部說的目的我同意我們怎麼樣精準的有效達成這個目的而不造成多餘的困擾現在的問題是這個"},{"start":466.101,"end":488.499,"text":"但我現在很多人就有疑問我們這個只是純粹這個純粹形式上要求隨團的形式真的能夠達到你講的這個目的嗎我們事前也沒有跟這個旅行團聯繫也沒跟導遊聯繫這個他出國的時候我們也沒有相對應的管理機制事後也沒有回報機制"},{"start":491.189,"end":492.411,"text":"大家疑問的是這件事情"},{"start":511.755,"end":535.432,"text":"我現在不是說我要幫大家爭取自由行不是這個意思我想爭取的是有效跟精準的管理下面我認為可以參考一些其他單位的做法比方說我們看到中科院基本上他是把人員分不同機密的機密等級"},{"start":537.435,"end":554.017,"text":"你是可以出遊行但是不同機密的人員相對程序有不同相對應的處罰中科院是這樣 下一張那國安局的狀況是國安局的狀況是說他的護照要由他們的局來做統一的管理"},{"start":556.007,"end":567.024,"text":"出國的時候或者是出國回來要收回讓國安局統一的管理一樣他是可以出自由行所以他會跑到其他國家去那護照上面看得出來"},{"start":568.683,"end":593.569,"text":"用護照這個事情的事後檢驗來看你有沒有跑到其他國家去我現在不是說哪一個方法是最好的但看起來別的單位的做法基本上它是分機密分級人員的機密分因為我們現在18萬人數其實很多是不是所有的人都會接觸到同樣類型的機密都用同樣類型的管理的方法這件事情我認為是有討論的空間"},{"start":595.863,"end":624.581,"text":"要不要用機密分級或者是相對應的分層的管理甚至不同國家有不同管理的方式比方說這樣去中國我就認為去中國恐怕我們需要管理的密度管制的密度就要很高我完全同意但不同國家有不同管理的方式而不是現在你大筆一揮現在在那個上面有一個這樣子的規定沒有錯可是大家都形式主義所以你原本政策的目的看起來也不容易精準達到"},{"start":625.967,"end":651.056,"text":"可是又造成了一些人的困擾那這個管理的形式我認為好像是有可以檢討的空間,部長覺得?我跟委員報告,假如要分什麼機密等級或層級來進行他出國的同意或者這個廣度的話我們國防部現在也是這樣做的他每個層級,什麼中將以上或者少將他有規定的部長,所以我現在意思是跟你說你現在是要求所有的人都一定要隨團嗎?那"},{"start":653.913,"end":661.852,"text":"現在應該來檢討這個管理的方式是不是有效嘛我現在不是說我現在大力爭取所有人都可以自由行不是這個意思"},{"start":663.067,"end":688.747,"text":"但是至少能夠精準的清楚的達到我們原本管理的目的但不造成多餘的困擾嘛這就是我們實施管理最重要的原則跟概念嘛那今天其他的單位有所謂機密分級或者是分層的管理的方式我自己覺得國防部應該來參考是不是來檢討我們自己相關的規定之前在國防外交委員會裡面我也看過大家有相關的決議"},{"start":689.828,"end":705.2,"text":"要求國防部來檢討這件事情可是經過了幾年後我目前收到的國防部的回應是我們沒有要檢討我們維持現況維持現況是因為那些目的可是那些目的寫出來又讓人家覺得你的機制真的能夠達成這些目的嗎部長我知道那就可以研討嘛我並沒有拒絕這種事情部長可不可以三個月的時間"},{"start":715.739,"end":737.373,"text":"有一個檢討相關的這個出國的規定跟管制的方式有沒有調整的空間跟方向我可以接受逐步調整我可以接受可是我覺得以現在要維持現況它的有效性我是質疑的我是質疑的我了解委員也這樣說就方法怎麼定標準大概有效果至少有效你的目的能夠達得到"},{"start":739.943,"end":740.003,"text":"洪申翰"}]}}}}