{"id":150478,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150478","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5d8792754d2cfeb9af9597c3f3f044368f8ba9b0039caa7a69cb4223b3f47f7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"10:49:37 - 11:03:35","影片長度":"00:13:58","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-9"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":838,"end_time":"2024-03-27T11:03:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T10:49:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":463,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（10時49分）因為我下面的質詢比較偏重在用兵、訓練跟限制因素，所以有請副總長執行官、聯三作計次長，以及通資次長。"],["鄭副參謀總長執行官榮豐：委員好。"],["陳委員永康：大家好。今天這個報告內容強調了許多俄烏戰爭的經驗，但俄烏戰爭有一部分經驗，今天並沒有包含在內，也就是烏克蘭對在黑海跟克里米亞所有俄國軍艦攻擊的都是無人艇，並非無人機，這個在下次的時候可以把它融入，因為現在無人趨勢發展的，我們講autonomous，自主性的，包括UAV、USV、UUV，空中、水面、水下都是無人，而不只僅限於無人機。","剛才也有委員提到無人機的配比，是不是每一架飛機有更多的操作手？我向各位報告，這個不等於有人飛機的座艙比，比方講，我們有一架新的戰鬥機，希望能夠1比2、1比1.8或者1比1.5，但是在俄烏戰爭中，你所看到的那種小部隊在地面戰的消耗型無人機，它可能一個小單位編配10架無人機，2到3個操作手，為什麼？因為它把目標打掉就自毀了，是消耗型無人機，它不是比照有飛行員的座艙比，所以操作手跟飛機並非1比1.1，甚至可能是3比1、4比1，所以這個觀念要導正過來。","今天我們就用這個來向各位說明，我們看到現有的5款商規無人機，也提到了自然因素，最主要就是商規無人機所有的通訊頻段全部由NCC管制，因此國防部要要求NCC提供更寬裕的軍用頻道，不然是不夠用的。在承平時期，你用商規的、用通訊頻道的，不管是用中華電信或遠傳，我們看到這個得標廠商是跟中華電信簽約，中華電信對於通訊距離的範圍，在物體特性上，就是飛機的高度加上天線高度，再乘上4.12，就等於是偵測的距離，這是一個變數，它不是一個常數。如果你要傳回即時完整的圖像，這圖像又涉及到解析度的問題，這個跟所謂4K、800萬畫素是另外一回事，因為通訊頻道的傳輸速度跟頻寬，比方解析度10公分、30公分和1公尺是完全不同的，所以這種傳輸速度也不一樣，如果我們在驗證的時候都是用單一的飛機來驗證，沒有問題，但如果你同時用4架、5架來驗證，就會發現頻率不夠用，所以這些問題就是要跟NCC強調，要求撥給軍中更大tolerance的頻寬，這個是專業論述。如果在承平時講，就是每一機代表一個門號，那你就要付錢了，我們看到俄烏戰爭中講到無人機被干擾，我們現在也說無人機具有反干擾能力，有跳頻，但是這個跳頻跟我們國軍用的Link-16完全不是相同的比例，所以Link-16是不怕干擾的，但一般國內無人機的跳頻，那個數字很容易被蓋過去，就被干擾了。","另外，在承平時期，因為你本身有GPS座標，如果戰時被蓋臺，自己的位置掌握不住，那你跟你共同圖像的同步比較做不出來，也不能結合你的雷達站，所以在海上看到的目標的實際方位、距離，跟送回來的影像的位置是有落差的，這個部分我們提供建議，就是強調商規軍用無人機在承平時期跟作戰時期的運用限制因素，NCC要放寬我們的頻道需求，你手頭要掌握更多的頻寬，而不是說一架飛機一個門號，有3,000架飛機就有3,000個門號，這是承受不起的。","後面我們看一下俄烏戰爭期間，當然是用SpaceX，它要支付每個終端2,500美元的月費，英國供應商提供收購的終端機是1,300個Starlink，但是烏克蘭的軍隊、醫院、企業所有的通訊用了4萬2,000個末端，所以它說要它1個月提供800萬美元。今天我們的NCC可能跟英國的OneWeb簽了約，但是簽約裡面包含多少個終端跟用戶點，我們不知道，就算它的錢只是Starlink的一半，你是按月、你是機動臺，定點的臺便宜機動臺是10倍，所以這些東西在使用端，大家要先掌握到，就是看起來它是消耗型，可以減少國軍人員的耗損，我講的特別是這種近岸、近距離的、消耗型的，但是費用不是載具的費用高，而是使用費用，未來如果你要用低軌衛星鏈路，或者是用我們商用國內的，不管是中華、遠傳，各種要透過天線微波轉代的，如果這些天線跑掉了、失效了，那你的作業距離就會很快地縮短，所以這個是我們要注意的，這個部分一定要請國防部去跟NCC講，國軍需要的頻寬要擴大，要有預量的tolerance，你不能把承平時期想像的正常，變成戰時的有效運用，它確實可以減少人員的損失，但是在使用成本上，載具、無人機的成本不高，但是因為你要掛頻道，要分享你這個頻寬，你要買那麼多門號，這個錢要預應，就是要編列進去。","這個就是自動化跟人文，未來所謂的迴路設計，剛才有提到要把AI導入，這種AI導入通常是在大型、聯戰的無人機上，它有決策，但是這裡面就產生了一個作戰準則跟ROE了，就是哪些東西是指揮官授權？哪些東西要回饋、要變更目標、要人？我們講 man in the loop、man on the loop，小型無人機、消耗型對單一目標，看到確認就撞它、擊毀了，man out of loop，這些東西在準則教範要律定清楚。","另外，剛才有委員在問你的訓練中心如何，我們做一個建言，就是假設你營級部隊能夠編配有2種到3種不同的無人機，我們建議做一個實驗編裝，用一個排級單位在直屬營底下，它有3種飛機，我們訓練的結果，這個是可以協助減少很多的不合，不要每個人都去試，用實驗編裝的方式。6個月、1年之內得出的結果，修正準則教範，再加上你裝備的編配比。最後，如果一個比方講一個單獨的操作單位有3種無人機、有15架，我們合格的操作手有多少？真正這種聯戰型的大型無人機，要結合國軍完整的指管，它甚至是1架飛機起飛有3個人、4個人坐在操作室裡面，還要結合我們現有完整的指管系統，這個跟這個不能一概而論。","這個是魚叉跟美國先進的海麻雀飛彈，它在末端就是有一種man in the loop的概念，不是全自動，現在最主要是飛行的控制能力、載台的功能、圖像傳遞的效能，這個我想提醒我們聯三在協調過程中，尤其是配合廠商提供論述要講得清楚。","軍用無人機的研製，中科院我們是支持的，中型民用無人機可進行遠距離的情監偵，這個整合就是剛剛講的通訊頻寬、抗干擾的能力，這個我們共同來努力。而小型無人機，如果只是空拍，不是即偵即打的話比較單純，但是即偵即打的就涉及到你的精準度、會不會誤判、授權的原因，所以商用的小型無人機，我建議在法規上對即偵即打的定義要強調清楚，因為如果誤判、錯判的話，像烏克蘭打城鎮之間30公里，都是在丘陵、在樹林去打俄國的，但如果是城鎮戰，對目標的判斷就非常嚴苛，所以這個在系統裡面有些權責上就必須man in the loop，而不是完全授權。","最後的建議是，我們對於美國提供大型的MQ-9B，因為這個是非常重要的，當然要整合到我們國軍的整體運用裡面，關鍵在於它的料配件是完全要送到美國去修，也不做技轉，因此未來大型無人機，我們還是建議中科院要扮演更大的角色，這個一定要自己建立。這4架飛機會帶給我們一些新的運用觀念，也可以用逆向工程思考的方法，將中科院已經有的中型無人機做性能提升。","當然我們也感謝美方長期的支持，但是最後我所要強調的，我們真正無人系統的關鍵還是在於中科院，民間的廠商能提供部分的協作，減少我們的研發時間，對此我們是肯定，但是在使用單位，最後就是跟NCC特別要求要提供足夠的頻寬，而不是以平常買個手機門號的方式就說沒有關係，我可以充分使用，這個依靠度如果不是50%或甚至是30%的可靠，那你的使用機率就降低了。本席以上建議提供我們作戰單位、運用單位作為參考。"],["鄭副參謀總長執行官榮豐：謝謝委員精闢的指導，我用1分鐘來回應一下。委員特別提到烏克蘭運用無人艇很成功的案例，這個部分我們已經蒐集很多資料，也在做戰時的研究，未來會融入到相關整個戰術研析裡面。","第二個部分，委員講到無人機的訓練，事實上，我們的無人機訓練是用一個類別的概念來分類，依照軍種的訓練需求，現在空軍已經有一個班隊，陸軍也要成立一個訓練中心，這個訓練中心不是要純粹訓練這些，最主要是要獲得證照，其他的人員的訓練，剛剛部長也特別提到，要結合到接裝的一個過程，還有廠家的訓練，這個操作是有整體在做規劃的。","有關於OneWeb的頻率管理，事實上我們跟數位部都已經談好了，也跟國科會談好了，我們獲得的數量都已經按照期程在做，至於費用的部分也在裡面。有關無人機，剛才特別提到，我們跟NCC事實上有一個導控的頻率，還有一個下傳的頻率，這個分頻的部分我們一直在跟他們爭取，這個部分是持續在跟NCC協調當中。","剛才委員特別強調武裝衝突法，有關於所謂的攻擊型無人機，我們也把美方要求的附帶損失、管控損失，把人的因素放在裡面，這部分我們持續在跟美方做協調。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員。聯六如果跟NCC溝通有問題的話，我們可能要給你一個期限，我覺得委員會可以當你們的後盾，因為傳輸跟控制那個頻寬，平時跟戰時確實不一樣，你不先備好，平常就會很難用。如果你們在溝通上遇到官僚體系比較困難的時候，我們委員會應該可以協助你們一些，不管是決議等等，好不好？聯六有需求的話，請提到委員會，謝謝。"],["鄭副參謀總長執行官榮豐：整體的戰場環境頻譜管理這部分，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，各位請回。","我補宣告一下，因為剛剛宣告是陳冠廷委員詢答後要處理臨時提案，因為他們發言順序有對調，我們修正為馬文君委員詢答結束後處理臨時提案，臨時提案處理完休息5分鐘。","接下來進行詢答的委員為陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","洪申翰","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","林德福","羅智強","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","張啓楷","王鴻薇"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1132001_00016"}},"transcript":{"id":"150478","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150478","tool":"pyannote","id":"150478-pyannote"},"job_id":"Jzu84bMKggk5Mmml","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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{\"word\": \"趨\"}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 49.45, \"end\": 49.65, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 49.65, \"end\": 50.091, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 50.091, \"end\": 51.612, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 51.612, \"end\": 51.773, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 51.773, \"end\": 51.933, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 51.933, \"end\": 52.133, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 52.133, \"end\": 52.854, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 52.854, \"end\": 53.034, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 53.034, \"end\": 53.214, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"U\", \"start\": 53.214, \"end\": 53.394, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 53.394, \"end\": 53.634, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"V\", \"start\": 53.634, \"end\": 53.654, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 54.758, \"end\": 55.359, \"text\": \"無人機運用的現況及發展\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 54.758, \"end\": 54.918, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 54.918, \"end\": 55.058, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"運\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 55.058, \"end\": 55.078, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 55.078, \"end\": 55.198, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 55.198, \"end\": 55.339, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 55.339, \"end\": 55.359, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 79.059, \"end\": 88.747, \"text\": \"所以比方講我們有一架新的戰鬥機我們希望能夠1比2 1比1.8或者1比1.5但是在俄烏戰爭中你所看到的小部隊的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 79.059, \"end\": 79.159, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 79.159, \"end\": 79.219, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 79.219, \"end\": 79.339, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 79.339, \"end\": 79.72, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 79.72, \"end\": 79.9, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 79.9, \"end\": 80.04, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 80.04, \"end\": 80.1, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"架\", \"start\": 80.1, \"end\": 80.28, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 80.28, \"end\": 80.42, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 80.42, \"end\": 81.141, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"鬥\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 81.141, \"end\": 81.441, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 81.441, \"end\": 81.581, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 81.581, \"end\": 81.781, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 81.781, \"end\": 82.402, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 82.402, \"end\": 83.123, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 83.123, \"end\": 84.083, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 84.083, \"end\": 84.223, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 84.223, \"end\": 84.464, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 84.464, \"end\": 85.424, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 85.424, \"end\": 85.605, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 85.605, \"end\": 85.705, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 85.705, \"end\": 85.925, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"俄\", \"start\": 85.925, \"end\": 86.726, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"烏\"}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 86.726, \"end\": 87.026, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 87.026, \"end\": 87.226, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 87.226, \"end\": 87.486, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 87.486, \"end\": 87.746, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 87.746, \"end\": 87.967, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 87.967, \"end\": 88.227, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 88.227, \"end\": 88.567, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 88.567, \"end\": 88.727, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"隊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 88.727, \"end\": 88.747, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 89.827, \"end\": 90.147, \"text\": \"李卓人議員\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"李\", \"start\": 89.827, \"end\": 89.987, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"卓\", \"start\": 89.987, \"end\": 90.127, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 90.127, \"end\": 90.147, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}]}, {\"start\": 117.981, \"end\": 144.843, \"text\": \"用這個程度來向各位你現在看到的就是說我們現在五款商規的無人機也提到了自然因素那最主要就是商規無人機他所有的通訊他的頻段全部是由NCC來管制的因此國防部要要求NCC提供更寬裕的軍用頻調不然你是不夠用的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 117.981, \"end\": 118.461, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, 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122.004, \"end\": 122.365, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 122.365, \"end\": 123.065, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 123.065, \"end\": 123.225, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"款\", \"start\": 123.225, \"end\": 123.506, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 123.506, \"end\": 123.906, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 123.906, \"end\": 124.046, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 124.046, \"end\": 124.186, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 124.186, \"end\": 125.968, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 125.968, \"end\": 126.208, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 126.208, \"end\": 126.388, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 126.388, \"end\": 126.608, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 126.608, \"end\": 127.068, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 127.068, \"end\": 127.188, 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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 832.971, \"end\": 833.031, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 833.031, \"end\": 833.051, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,523 --> 00:00:26,561\n因為我下面質詢的．比較偏重在用兵．跟訓練跟限制因素．所以唯有請副總長執行官．連山作記次長．以及通知次長大家好今天這個報告內容裏面．強調了許多惡巫戰爭的經驗那麼\n\n2\n00:00:32,213 --> 00:00:53,654\n二無戰爭有一部分的經驗今天並沒有包含在內也就是烏克蘭對在黑海跟克里米亞所有俄國軍艦攻擊的都是無人艇並非無人機那麼這個在下次的時候可以把它融入因為現在無人趨勢發展的我們講自主性的包括UAV\n\n3\n00:00:54,758 --> 00:00:55,359\n無人機運用的現況及發展\n\n4\n00:01:19,059 --> 00:01:28,747\n所以比方講我們有一架新的戰鬥機我們希望能夠1比21比1.8或者1比1.5但是在俄烏戰爭中你所看到的小部隊的\n\n5\n00:01:29,827 --> 00:01:30,147\n李卓人議員\n\n6\n00:01:57,981 --> 00:02:24,843\n用這個程度來向各位你現在看到的就是說我們現在五款商規的無人機也提到了自然因素那最主要就是商規無人機他所有的通訊他的頻段全部是由NCC來管制的因此國防部要要求NCC提供更寬裕的軍用頻調不然你是不夠用的\n\n7\n00:02:26,620 --> 00:02:54,235\n現在我們講在陳平時期你用商規的你用通信平台的不管你是用中華電信的或用船的我們看到我們這個得標的廠商是跟中華電信簽約那中華電信對於你通信距離的範圍在物體特性裡面就是飛機的高度加上天線的高度再乘上4.12等於你偵測的距離這是一個變數它不是一個常數\n\n8\n00:02:56,246 --> 00:03:15,072\n所以你又要傳回即時完整的圖像這圖像又涉及到了解析度問題了這個跟所謂4K啊800萬畫素是另外一回事因為你通信頻道的傳輸速度跟頻寬比方講你是解析度是10公分\n\n9\n00:03:16,212 --> 00:03:16,232\n韓國瑜\n\n10\n00:03:31,018 --> 00:03:31,098\n陳永康議員\n\n11\n00:04:00,848 --> 00:04:24,896\n但是這個跳屏跟我們國軍用的Link-16那完全不是相同的比例所以Link-16是不怕干擾的但一般國內無人機的跳屏那個數字很容易被蓋過去就被干擾到了另外還有一個就是在陳平時期因為你本身有GPS的坐標如果你暫時被蓋台你自己的位置就掌握不住了\n\n12\n00:04:25,851 --> 00:04:54,255\n你跟你共同圖像的同步比較做不出來再不能結合你的雷達站所以你在海上看到的目標它實際的方位距離跟送回來的影像的位置是有落差的這個部分我們提供建議就是說要強調商規軍用無人機在陳平時期跟作戰時期它的運用限制因素NCC要放寬我的頻道需求\n\n13\n00:04:55,589 --> 00:04:55,629\n陳永康議員\n\n14\n00:05:24,892 --> 00:05:52,720\n英國供應商提供收購的終端機是1300個STARLINK但是呢烏克蘭的軍隊醫院企業所有的通訊用了4萬2000個末端所以他一個月提供800萬美元那今天呢我們的NCC可能跟英國的OneWeb簽了約但是簽約裡面包含多少個終端跟用戶點我們不知道\n\n15\n00:05:53,908 --> 00:06:16,950\n就算他的錢只是STARLINK的一半你是暗月又是你是機動台定點的台便宜機動台是10倍所以這些東西在使用端大家要先掌握到就是看起來它是消耗型可以減少了國軍人員的耗損我講的是特別是這種近距離的消耗型的\n\n16\n00:06:17,651 --> 00:06:17,971\n李卓人議員\n\n17\n00:06:37,910 --> 00:06:42,793\n國軍需要的頻寬要擴大,要有預量的tolerance,你不能把陳平時期想像的正常變成暫時的有效運用\n\n18\n00:06:59,502 --> 00:07:11,998\n他確實可以減少人員的損失但是在使用成本上載具無人機它的成本不高但是因為你要掛頻道要分享你這個頻寬你要買那麼多的門號這個錢要預印就是說要編列進去\n\n19\n00:07:18,134 --> 00:07:32,251\n那這個就是自動化跟人文啊未來所謂的這個回路設計啊那剛才講有提到就是說要把AI導入那這種AI導入通常是在大型\n\n20\n00:07:33,754 --> 00:07:59,094\n連戰的無人機上他有決策但是這裡面就產生了一個作戰準則跟這個ROE了就是說哪些東西是指揮官授權哪些東西要回饋要變更目標要人我們講manintheloopontheloop小型無人機消耗型對單一目標看到確認就創他擊毀了manoutofloop這些東西在準則叫範要履訂清楚\n\n21\n00:07:59,835 --> 00:08:26,835\n另外一個就是剛才有委員在問這個你的訓練中心啊如何啊我們做一個建言就是說假設你迎擊部隊能夠編配有兩種到三種不同的無人機我們建議做一個實驗編裝用一個排級單位在直屬這個營底下他有三種飛機那我們訓練的結果這個是可以協助減少很多的不和不要每個人都去試用實驗編裝的方式\n\n22\n00:08:29,572 --> 00:08:45,362\n6個月,1年之內,得出的結果,修正準則教範,再加上你裝備的編配比。最後就是說,如果一個,比方講一個單獨的操作單位,有3種無人機,有15架,我合格的操作手有多少?\n\n23\n00:08:45,842 --> 00:09:00,476\n那真正這種連戰型的大型無人機要結合國軍的完整的執管他甚至是一架飛機起飛有三個人四個人坐在操作室裡面還要結合我們現有的完整的執管系統這個跟這個不能一概而論\n\n24\n00:09:03,131 --> 00:09:28,204\n這個是魚叉跟美國的先進的這個海麻雀飛彈它在末端就是有一種mainintheloop的概念不是全自動那現在最主要的是飛行的控制能力載台的功能圖像傳遞的效能這個我想我提醒我們聯三在協調過程尤其是配合廠商提供的論述要講得清楚是\n\n25\n00:09:31,673 --> 00:09:57,544\n軍用無人機的研製中科院我們是支持的中型民用無人機的遠距離的情監偵這個整合就是剛剛講的通訊頻寬抗干擾的能力這個我們共同來努力小型無人機如果只是空拍不是急偵急打的話比較單純但是急偵急打的就涉及到了你的精準度會不會誤判授權的原因所以\n\n26\n00:09:58,943 --> 00:10:19,378\n商用的小型無人機我建議在法規上對即爭即打的定義要強調清楚因為如果誤判錯判烏克蘭打城鎮之間的30公里都是在丘陵在樹林去打俄國的但是如果今天是城鎮戰你對目標的判斷\n\n27\n00:10:20,612 --> 00:10:37,006\n所以這個在系統裡面有些權責上就必須manintheloop而不是完全授權那麼最後的建議就是我們對於美國提供的這個大型的這個MQ-9B因為這個是非常重要的當然要整合到我們國軍的整體運用裡面\n\n28\n00:10:39,109 --> 00:11:05,408\n關鍵在於它的料配件是完全要送國美國去修也不做計轉因此未來大型無人機我們還是建議中科院要扮演一個更大的角色這個一定要自己建立那麼這四架飛機會帶給我們一些虛擬的運用觀念也可以用這個立項工程思考的原因啊方法來把我們現有中科院已經有的這個中型無人機做性能提升那麼\n\n29\n00:11:07,247 --> 00:11:35,222\n我們也感謝美方長期的支持但是最後我這邊強調的我們真正無人系統的關鍵還是在於中科院民間的廠商能提供部分的協作減少我們研發時間我們是肯定但是在使用單位最後就是跟NCC特別要求給我足夠的頻寬而不是用平常就說買個手機門號的方式沒有關係我可以充分使用暫時這個依靠度如果\n\n30\n00:11:35,862 --> 00:11:38,543\n委員特別提到烏克蘭運用無人艇的一個很成功的案例這個部分我們已經收集很多資料也在做暫時的研究\n\n31\n00:12:01,007 --> 00:12:27,216\n未來會融入到相關的這個戰術研析裡面第二個部分有講到這個無人機的訓練事實上我們的無人機訓練是用一個類別的概念來分類依照軍種的訓練需求現在空軍已經有一個班隊那入軍他要成立一個訓練中心這個訓練中心不是要純粹訓練這些他最主要是要獲得證照那\n\n32\n00:12:27,896 --> 00:12:52,074\n其他人員的訓練剛剛部長也特別提到要結合到接裝的一個過程還有廠家的訓練這操作是有整體在做規劃的那有關於OneWeb的頻率管理事實上我們跟數位部都已經談好了國科會談好了我們獲得數量都已經按照期程在做那至於它的這個費用的部分也\n\n33\n00:12:54,296 --> 00:13:10,261\n吳仁基剛才特別提到我們跟NCC是讓他有一個導控的頻率還有一個下船的頻率這個分屏的部分我們一直在跟他爭取這個部分由聯六持續在跟NCC在協調當中那剛才特別強調一個武裝衝突法\n\n34\n00:13:12,202 --> 00:13:25,058\n有關於這個所謂的攻擊型無人機我們也把美方要求的嚴禁那個附帶損失管控這個損失把人的因素放在裡面這個我們持續再跟美方再做協調謝謝\n\n35\n00:13:28,621 --> 00:13:52,290\n謝謝陳永康委員那聯六如果NCC溝通有問題的話我們可能要給你一個期限我覺得委員會可以當你們的後盾因為傳輸跟控制那個頻寬平時跟暫時確實不一樣你不先備好你平常就會很難用如果你在溝通上遇到官僚體系比較困難的時候我們委員會應該可以幫你們協助做一些不管是決議等等好不好聯六有需求請提到委員會\n\n36\n00:13:52,971 --> 00:13:53,051\n謝謝總管委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2523\t26561\t因為我下面質詢的．比較偏重在用兵．跟訓練跟限制因素．所以唯有請副總長執行官．連山作記次長．以及通知次長大家好今天這個報告內容裏面．強調了許多惡巫戰爭的經驗那麼\n32213\t53654\t二無戰爭有一部分的經驗今天並沒有包含在內也就是烏克蘭對在黑海跟克里米亞所有俄國軍艦攻擊的都是無人艇並非無人機那麼這個在下次的時候可以把它融入因為現在無人趨勢發展的我們講自主性的包括UAV\n54758\t55359\t無人機運用的現況及發展\n79059\t88747\t所以比方講我們有一架新的戰鬥機我們希望能夠1比2 1比1.8或者1比1.5但是在俄烏戰爭中你所看到的小部隊的\n89827\t90147\t李卓人議員\n117981\t144843\t用這個程度來向各位你現在看到的就是說我們現在五款商規的無人機也提到了自然因素那最主要就是商規無人機他所有的通訊他的頻段全部是由NCC來管制的因此國防部要要求NCC提供更寬裕的軍用頻調不然你是不夠用的\n146620\t174235\t現在我們講在陳平時期你用商規的你用通信平台的不管你是用中華電信的或用船的我們看到我們這個得標的廠商是跟中華電信簽約那中華電信對於你通信距離的範圍在物體特性裡面就是飛機的高度加上天線的高度再乘上4.12等於你偵測的距離這是一個變數它不是一個常數\n176246\t195072\t所以你又要傳回即時完整的圖像這圖像又涉及到了解析度問題了這個跟所謂4K啊800萬畫素是另外一回事因為你通信頻道的傳輸速度跟頻寬比方講你是解析度是10公分\n196212\t196232\t韓國瑜\n211018\t211098\t陳永康議員\n240848\t264896\t但是這個跳屏跟我們國軍用的Link-16那完全不是相同的比例所以Link-16是不怕干擾的但一般國內無人機的跳屏那個數字很容易被蓋過去就被干擾到了另外還有一個就是在陳平時期因為你本身有GPS的坐標如果你暫時被蓋台你自己的位置就掌握不住了\n265851\t294255\t你跟你共同圖像的同步比較做不出來再不能結合你的雷達站所以你在海上看到的目標它實際的方位距離跟送回來的影像的位置是有落差的這個部分我們提供建議就是說要強調商規軍用無人機在陳平時期跟作戰時期它的運用限制因素NCC要放寬我的頻道需求\n295589\t295629\t陳永康議員\n324892\t352720\t英國供應商提供收購的終端機是1300個STARLINK但是呢 烏克蘭的軍隊醫院企業所有的通訊用了4萬2000個末端所以他一個月提供800萬美元那今天呢我們的NCC可能跟英國的OneWeb簽了約但是簽約裡面包含多少個終端跟用戶點我們不知道\n353908\t376950\t就算他的錢只是STARLINK的一半你是暗月又是你是機動台定點的台便宜機動台是10倍所以這些東西在使用端大家要先掌握到就是看起來它是消耗型可以減少了國軍人員的耗損我講的是特別是這種近距離的消耗型的\n377651\t377971\t李卓人議員\n397910\t402793\t國軍需要的頻寬要擴大,要有預量的tolerance,你不能把陳平時期想像的正常變成暫時的有效運用\n419502\t431998\t他確實可以減少人員的損失但是在使用成本上載具無人機它的成本不高但是因為你要掛頻道要分享你這個頻寬你要買那麼多的門號這個錢要預印就是說要編列進去\n438134\t452251\t那這個就是自動化跟人文啊未來所謂的這個回路設計啊那剛才講有提到就是說要把AI導入那這種AI導入通常是在大型\n453754\t479094\t連戰的無人機上他有決策但是這裡面就產生了一個作戰準則跟這個ROE了就是說哪些東西是指揮官授權哪些東西要回饋要變更目標要人我們講man in the loop on the loop小型無人機消耗型對單一目標看到確認就創他擊毀了man out of loop這些東西在準則叫範要履訂清楚\n479835\t506835\t另外一個就是剛才有委員在問這個你的訓練中心啊如何啊我們做一個建言就是說假設你迎擊部隊能夠編配有兩種到三種不同的無人機我們建議做一個實驗編裝用一個排級單位在直屬這個營底下他有三種飛機那我們訓練的結果這個是可以協助減少很多的不和不要每個人都去試用實驗編裝的方式\n509572\t525362\t6個月,1年之內,得出的結果,修正準則教範,再加上你裝備的編配比。最後就是說,如果一個,比方講一個單獨的操作單位,有3種無人機,有15架,我合格的操作手有多少?\n525842\t540476\t那真正這種連戰型的大型無人機要結合國軍的完整的執管他甚至是一架飛機起飛有三個人四個人坐在操作室裡面還要結合我們現有的完整的執管系統這個跟這個不能一概而論\n543131\t568204\t這個是魚叉跟美國的先進的這個海麻雀飛彈它在末端就是有一種main in the loop的概念不是全自動那現在最主要的是飛行的控制能力載台的功能圖像傳遞的效能這個我想我提醒我們聯三在協調過程尤其是配合廠商提供的論述要講得清楚是\n571673\t597544\t軍用無人機的研製中科院我們是支持的中型民用無人機的遠距離的情監偵這個整合就是剛剛講的通訊頻寬抗干擾的能力這個我們共同來努力小型無人機如果只是空拍不是急偵急打的話比較單純但是急偵急打的就涉及到了你的精準度會不會誤判授權的原因所以\n598943\t619378\t商用的小型無人機我建議在法規上對即爭即打的定義要強調清楚因為如果誤判錯判烏克蘭打城鎮之間的30公里都是在丘陵在樹林去打俄國的但是如果今天是城鎮戰你對目標的判斷\n620612\t637006\t所以這個在系統裡面有些權責上就必須man in the loop而不是完全授權那麼最後的建議就是我們對於美國提供的這個大型的這個MQ-9B因為這個是非常重要的當然要整合到我們國軍的整體運用裡面\n639109\t665408\t關鍵在於它的料配件是完全要送國美國去修也不做計轉因此未來大型無人機我們還是建議中科院要扮演一個更大的角色這個一定要自己建立那麼這四架飛機會帶給我們一些虛擬的運用觀念也可以用這個立項工程思考的原因啊方法來把我們現有中科院已經有的這個中型無人機做性能提升那麼\n667247\t695222\t我們也感謝美方長期的支持但是最後我這邊強調的我們真正無人系統的關鍵還是在於中科院民間的廠商能提供部分的協作減少我們研發時間我們是肯定但是在使用單位最後就是跟NCC特別要求給我足夠的頻寬而不是用平常就說買個手機門號的方式沒有關係我可以充分使用暫時這個依靠度如果\n695862\t698543\t委員特別提到烏克蘭運用無人艇的一個很成功的案例 這個部分我們已經收集很多資料 也在做暫時的研究\n721007\t747216\t未來會融入到相關的這個戰術研析裡面第二個部分有講到這個無人機的訓練事實上我們的無人機訓練是用一個類別的概念來分類依照軍種的訓練需求現在空軍已經有一個班隊那入軍他要成立一個訓練中心這個訓練中心不是要純粹訓練這些他最主要是要獲得證照那\n747896\t772074\t其他人員的訓練剛剛部長也特別提到要結合到接裝的一個過程還有廠家的訓練這操作是有整體在做規劃的那有關於OneWeb的頻率管理事實上我們跟數位部都已經談好了國科會談好了我們獲得數量都已經按照期程在做那至於它的這個費用的部分也\n774296\t790261\t吳仁基剛才特別提到我們跟NCC是讓他有一個導控的頻率還有一個下船的頻率這個分屏的部分我們一直在跟他爭取這個部分由聯六持續在跟NCC在協調當中那剛才特別強調一個武裝衝突法\n792202\t805058\t有關於這個所謂的攻擊型無人機我們也把美方要求的嚴禁那個附帶損失管控這個損失把人的因素放在裡面這個我們持續再跟美方再做協調謝謝\n808621\t832290\t謝謝陳永康委員那聯六如果NCC溝通有問題的話我們可能要給你一個期限我覺得委員會可以當你們的後盾因為傳輸跟控制那個頻寬平時跟暫時確實不一樣你不先備好你平常就會很難用如果你在溝通上遇到官僚體系比較困難的時候我們委員會應該可以幫你們協助做一些不管是決議等等好不好聯六有需求請提到委員會\n832971\t833051\t謝謝總管委員\n","txt":"因為我下面質詢的．比較偏重在用兵．跟訓練跟限制因素．所以唯有請副總長執行官．連山作記次長．以及通知次長大家好今天這個報告內容裏面．強調了許多惡巫戰爭的經驗那麼\n二無戰爭有一部分的經驗今天並沒有包含在內也就是烏克蘭對在黑海跟克里米亞所有俄國軍艦攻擊的都是無人艇並非無人機那麼這個在下次的時候可以把它融入因為現在無人趨勢發展的我們講自主性的包括UAV\n無人機運用的現況及發展\n所以比方講我們有一架新的戰鬥機我們希望能夠1比2 1比1.8或者1比1.5但是在俄烏戰爭中你所看到的小部隊的\n李卓人議員\n用這個程度來向各位你現在看到的就是說我們現在五款商規的無人機也提到了自然因素那最主要就是商規無人機他所有的通訊他的頻段全部是由NCC來管制的因此國防部要要求NCC提供更寬裕的軍用頻調不然你是不夠用的\n現在我們講在陳平時期你用商規的你用通信平台的不管你是用中華電信的或用船的我們看到我們這個得標的廠商是跟中華電信簽約那中華電信對於你通信距離的範圍在物體特性裡面就是飛機的高度加上天線的高度再乘上4.12等於你偵測的距離這是一個變數它不是一個常數\n所以你又要傳回即時完整的圖像這圖像又涉及到了解析度問題了這個跟所謂4K啊800萬畫素是另外一回事因為你通信頻道的傳輸速度跟頻寬比方講你是解析度是10公分\n韓國瑜\n陳永康議員\n但是這個跳屏跟我們國軍用的Link-16那完全不是相同的比例所以Link-16是不怕干擾的但一般國內無人機的跳屏那個數字很容易被蓋過去就被干擾到了另外還有一個就是在陳平時期因為你本身有GPS的坐標如果你暫時被蓋台你自己的位置就掌握不住了\n你跟你共同圖像的同步比較做不出來再不能結合你的雷達站所以你在海上看到的目標它實際的方位距離跟送回來的影像的位置是有落差的這個部分我們提供建議就是說要強調商規軍用無人機在陳平時期跟作戰時期它的運用限制因素NCC要放寬我的頻道需求\n陳永康議員\n英國供應商提供收購的終端機是1300個STARLINK但是呢 烏克蘭的軍隊醫院企業所有的通訊用了4萬2000個末端所以他一個月提供800萬美元那今天呢我們的NCC可能跟英國的OneWeb簽了約但是簽約裡面包含多少個終端跟用戶點我們不知道\n就算他的錢只是STARLINK的一半你是暗月又是你是機動台定點的台便宜機動台是10倍所以這些東西在使用端大家要先掌握到就是看起來它是消耗型可以減少了國軍人員的耗損我講的是特別是這種近距離的消耗型的\n李卓人議員\n國軍需要的頻寬要擴大,要有預量的tolerance,你不能把陳平時期想像的正常變成暫時的有效運用\n他確實可以減少人員的損失但是在使用成本上載具無人機它的成本不高但是因為你要掛頻道要分享你這個頻寬你要買那麼多的門號這個錢要預印就是說要編列進去\n那這個就是自動化跟人文啊未來所謂的這個回路設計啊那剛才講有提到就是說要把AI導入那這種AI導入通常是在大型\n連戰的無人機上他有決策但是這裡面就產生了一個作戰準則跟這個ROE了就是說哪些東西是指揮官授權哪些東西要回饋要變更目標要人我們講man in the loop on the loop小型無人機消耗型對單一目標看到確認就創他擊毀了man out of loop這些東西在準則叫範要履訂清楚\n另外一個就是剛才有委員在問這個你的訓練中心啊如何啊我們做一個建言就是說假設你迎擊部隊能夠編配有兩種到三種不同的無人機我們建議做一個實驗編裝用一個排級單位在直屬這個營底下他有三種飛機那我們訓練的結果這個是可以協助減少很多的不和不要每個人都去試用實驗編裝的方式\n6個月,1年之內,得出的結果,修正準則教範,再加上你裝備的編配比。最後就是說,如果一個,比方講一個單獨的操作單位,有3種無人機,有15架,我合格的操作手有多少?\n那真正這種連戰型的大型無人機要結合國軍的完整的執管他甚至是一架飛機起飛有三個人四個人坐在操作室裡面還要結合我們現有的完整的執管系統這個跟這個不能一概而論\n這個是魚叉跟美國的先進的這個海麻雀飛彈它在末端就是有一種main in the loop的概念不是全自動那現在最主要的是飛行的控制能力載台的功能圖像傳遞的效能這個我想我提醒我們聯三在協調過程尤其是配合廠商提供的論述要講得清楚是\n軍用無人機的研製中科院我們是支持的中型民用無人機的遠距離的情監偵這個整合就是剛剛講的通訊頻寬抗干擾的能力這個我們共同來努力小型無人機如果只是空拍不是急偵急打的話比較單純但是急偵急打的就涉及到了你的精準度會不會誤判授權的原因所以\n商用的小型無人機我建議在法規上對即爭即打的定義要強調清楚因為如果誤判錯判烏克蘭打城鎮之間的30公里都是在丘陵在樹林去打俄國的但是如果今天是城鎮戰你對目標的判斷\n所以這個在系統裡面有些權責上就必須man in the loop而不是完全授權那麼最後的建議就是我們對於美國提供的這個大型的這個MQ-9B因為這個是非常重要的當然要整合到我們國軍的整體運用裡面\n關鍵在於它的料配件是完全要送國美國去修也不做計轉因此未來大型無人機我們還是建議中科院要扮演一個更大的角色這個一定要自己建立那麼這四架飛機會帶給我們一些虛擬的運用觀念也可以用這個立項工程思考的原因啊方法來把我們現有中科院已經有的這個中型無人機做性能提升那麼\n我們也感謝美方長期的支持但是最後我這邊強調的我們真正無人系統的關鍵還是在於中科院民間的廠商能提供部分的協作減少我們研發時間我們是肯定但是在使用單位最後就是跟NCC特別要求給我足夠的頻寬而不是用平常就說買個手機門號的方式沒有關係我可以充分使用暫時這個依靠度如果\n委員特別提到烏克蘭運用無人艇的一個很成功的案例 這個部分我們已經收集很多資料 也在做暫時的研究\n未來會融入到相關的這個戰術研析裡面第二個部分有講到這個無人機的訓練事實上我們的無人機訓練是用一個類別的概念來分類依照軍種的訓練需求現在空軍已經有一個班隊那入軍他要成立一個訓練中心這個訓練中心不是要純粹訓練這些他最主要是要獲得證照那\n其他人員的訓練剛剛部長也特別提到要結合到接裝的一個過程還有廠家的訓練這操作是有整體在做規劃的那有關於OneWeb的頻率管理事實上我們跟數位部都已經談好了國科會談好了我們獲得數量都已經按照期程在做那至於它的這個費用的部分也\n吳仁基剛才特別提到我們跟NCC是讓他有一個導控的頻率還有一個下船的頻率這個分屏的部分我們一直在跟他爭取這個部分由聯六持續在跟NCC在協調當中那剛才特別強調一個武裝衝突法\n有關於這個所謂的攻擊型無人機我們也把美方要求的嚴禁那個附帶損失管控這個損失把人的因素放在裡面這個我們持續再跟美方再做協調謝謝\n謝謝陳永康委員那聯六如果NCC溝通有問題的話我們可能要給你一個期限我覺得委員會可以當你們的後盾因為傳輸跟控制那個頻寬平時跟暫時確實不一樣你不先備好你平常就會很難用如果你在溝通上遇到官僚體系比較困難的時候我們委員會應該可以幫你們協助做一些不管是決議等等好不好聯六有需求請提到委員會\n謝謝總管委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.523 --> 00:26.561\n因為我下面質詢的．比較偏重在用兵．跟訓練跟限制因素．所以唯有請副總長執行官．連山作記次長．以及通知次長大家好今天這個報告內容裏面．強調了許多惡巫戰爭的經驗那麼\n\n00:32.213 --> 00:53.654\n二無戰爭有一部分的經驗今天並沒有包含在內也就是烏克蘭對在黑海跟克里米亞所有俄國軍艦攻擊的都是無人艇並非無人機那麼這個在下次的時候可以把它融入因為現在無人趨勢發展的我們講自主性的包括UAV\n\n00:54.758 --> 00:55.359\n無人機運用的現況及發展\n\n01:19.059 --> 01:28.747\n所以比方講我們有一架新的戰鬥機我們希望能夠1比21比1.8或者1比1.5但是在俄烏戰爭中你所看到的小部隊的\n\n01:29.827 --> 01:30.147\n李卓人議員\n\n01:57.981 --> 02:24.843\n用這個程度來向各位你現在看到的就是說我們現在五款商規的無人機也提到了自然因素那最主要就是商規無人機他所有的通訊他的頻段全部是由NCC來管制的因此國防部要要求NCC提供更寬裕的軍用頻調不然你是不夠用的\n\n02:26.620 --> 02:54.235\n現在我們講在陳平時期你用商規的你用通信平台的不管你是用中華電信的或用船的我們看到我們這個得標的廠商是跟中華電信簽約那中華電信對於你通信距離的範圍在物體特性裡面就是飛機的高度加上天線的高度再乘上4.12等於你偵測的距離這是一個變數它不是一個常數\n\n02:56.246 --> 03:15.072\n所以你又要傳回即時完整的圖像這圖像又涉及到了解析度問題了這個跟所謂4K啊800萬畫素是另外一回事因為你通信頻道的傳輸速度跟頻寬比方講你是解析度是10公分\n\n03:16.212 --> 03:16.232\n韓國瑜\n\n03:31.018 --> 03:31.098\n陳永康議員\n\n04:00.848 --> 04:24.896\n但是這個跳屏跟我們國軍用的Link-16那完全不是相同的比例所以Link-16是不怕干擾的但一般國內無人機的跳屏那個數字很容易被蓋過去就被干擾到了另外還有一個就是在陳平時期因為你本身有GPS的坐標如果你暫時被蓋台你自己的位置就掌握不住了\n\n04:25.851 --> 04:54.255\n你跟你共同圖像的同步比較做不出來再不能結合你的雷達站所以你在海上看到的目標它實際的方位距離跟送回來的影像的位置是有落差的這個部分我們提供建議就是說要強調商規軍用無人機在陳平時期跟作戰時期它的運用限制因素NCC要放寬我的頻道需求\n\n04:55.589 --> 04:55.629\n陳永康議員\n\n05:24.892 --> 05:52.720\n英國供應商提供收購的終端機是1300個STARLINK但是呢烏克蘭的軍隊醫院企業所有的通訊用了4萬2000個末端所以他一個月提供800萬美元那今天呢我們的NCC可能跟英國的OneWeb簽了約但是簽約裡面包含多少個終端跟用戶點我們不知道\n\n05:53.908 --> 06:16.950\n就算他的錢只是STARLINK的一半你是暗月又是你是機動台定點的台便宜機動台是10倍所以這些東西在使用端大家要先掌握到就是看起來它是消耗型可以減少了國軍人員的耗損我講的是特別是這種近距離的消耗型的\n\n06:17.651 --> 06:17.971\n李卓人議員\n\n06:37.910 --> 06:42.793\n國軍需要的頻寬要擴大,要有預量的tolerance,你不能把陳平時期想像的正常變成暫時的有效運用\n\n06:59.502 --> 07:11.998\n他確實可以減少人員的損失但是在使用成本上載具無人機它的成本不高但是因為你要掛頻道要分享你這個頻寬你要買那麼多的門號這個錢要預印就是說要編列進去\n\n07:18.134 --> 07:32.251\n那這個就是自動化跟人文啊未來所謂的這個回路設計啊那剛才講有提到就是說要把AI導入那這種AI導入通常是在大型\n\n07:33.754 --> 07:59.094\n連戰的無人機上他有決策但是這裡面就產生了一個作戰準則跟這個ROE了就是說哪些東西是指揮官授權哪些東西要回饋要變更目標要人我們講manintheloopontheloop小型無人機消耗型對單一目標看到確認就創他擊毀了manoutofloop這些東西在準則叫範要履訂清楚\n\n07:59.835 --> 08:26.835\n另外一個就是剛才有委員在問這個你的訓練中心啊如何啊我們做一個建言就是說假設你迎擊部隊能夠編配有兩種到三種不同的無人機我們建議做一個實驗編裝用一個排級單位在直屬這個營底下他有三種飛機那我們訓練的結果這個是可以協助減少很多的不和不要每個人都去試用實驗編裝的方式\n\n08:29.572 --> 08:45.362\n6個月,1年之內,得出的結果,修正準則教範,再加上你裝備的編配比。最後就是說,如果一個,比方講一個單獨的操作單位,有3種無人機,有15架,我合格的操作手有多少?\n\n08:45.842 --> 09:00.476\n那真正這種連戰型的大型無人機要結合國軍的完整的執管他甚至是一架飛機起飛有三個人四個人坐在操作室裡面還要結合我們現有的完整的執管系統這個跟這個不能一概而論\n\n09:03.131 --> 09:28.204\n這個是魚叉跟美國的先進的這個海麻雀飛彈它在末端就是有一種mainintheloop的概念不是全自動那現在最主要的是飛行的控制能力載台的功能圖像傳遞的效能這個我想我提醒我們聯三在協調過程尤其是配合廠商提供的論述要講得清楚是\n\n09:31.673 --> 09:57.544\n軍用無人機的研製中科院我們是支持的中型民用無人機的遠距離的情監偵這個整合就是剛剛講的通訊頻寬抗干擾的能力這個我們共同來努力小型無人機如果只是空拍不是急偵急打的話比較單純但是急偵急打的就涉及到了你的精準度會不會誤判授權的原因所以\n\n09:58.943 --> 10:19.378\n商用的小型無人機我建議在法規上對即爭即打的定義要強調清楚因為如果誤判錯判烏克蘭打城鎮之間的30公里都是在丘陵在樹林去打俄國的但是如果今天是城鎮戰你對目標的判斷\n\n10:20.612 --> 10:37.006\n所以這個在系統裡面有些權責上就必須manintheloop而不是完全授權那麼最後的建議就是我們對於美國提供的這個大型的這個MQ-9B因為這個是非常重要的當然要整合到我們國軍的整體運用裡面\n\n10:39.109 --> 11:05.408\n關鍵在於它的料配件是完全要送國美國去修也不做計轉因此未來大型無人機我們還是建議中科院要扮演一個更大的角色這個一定要自己建立那麼這四架飛機會帶給我們一些虛擬的運用觀念也可以用這個立項工程思考的原因啊方法來把我們現有中科院已經有的這個中型無人機做性能提升那麼\n\n11:07.247 --> 11:35.222\n我們也感謝美方長期的支持但是最後我這邊強調的我們真正無人系統的關鍵還是在於中科院民間的廠商能提供部分的協作減少我們研發時間我們是肯定但是在使用單位最後就是跟NCC特別要求給我足夠的頻寬而不是用平常就說買個手機門號的方式沒有關係我可以充分使用暫時這個依靠度如果\n\n11:35.862 --> 11:38.543\n委員特別提到烏克蘭運用無人艇的一個很成功的案例這個部分我們已經收集很多資料也在做暫時的研究\n\n12:01.007 --> 12:27.216\n未來會融入到相關的這個戰術研析裡面第二個部分有講到這個無人機的訓練事實上我們的無人機訓練是用一個類別的概念來分類依照軍種的訓練需求現在空軍已經有一個班隊那入軍他要成立一個訓練中心這個訓練中心不是要純粹訓練這些他最主要是要獲得證照那\n\n12:27.896 --> 12:52.074\n其他人員的訓練剛剛部長也特別提到要結合到接裝的一個過程還有廠家的訓練這操作是有整體在做規劃的那有關於OneWeb的頻率管理事實上我們跟數位部都已經談好了國科會談好了我們獲得數量都已經按照期程在做那至於它的這個費用的部分也\n\n12:54.296 --> 13:10.261\n吳仁基剛才特別提到我們跟NCC是讓他有一個導控的頻率還有一個下船的頻率這個分屏的部分我們一直在跟他爭取這個部分由聯六持續在跟NCC在協調當中那剛才特別強調一個武裝衝突法\n\n13:12.202 --> 13:25.058\n有關於這個所謂的攻擊型無人機我們也把美方要求的嚴禁那個附帶損失管控這個損失把人的因素放在裡面這個我們持續再跟美方再做協調謝謝\n\n13:28.621 --> 13:52.290\n謝謝陳永康委員那聯六如果NCC溝通有問題的話我們可能要給你一個期限我覺得委員會可以當你們的後盾因為傳輸跟控制那個頻寬平時跟暫時確實不一樣你不先備好你平常就會很難用如果你在溝通上遇到官僚體系比較困難的時候我們委員會應該可以幫你們協助做一些不管是決議等等好不好聯六有需求請提到委員會\n\n13:52.971 --> 13:53.051\n謝謝總管委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.523,"end":26.561,"text":"因為我下面質詢的．比較偏重在用兵．跟訓練跟限制因素．所以唯有請副總長執行官．連山作記次長．以及通知次長大家好今天這個報告內容裏面．強調了許多惡巫戰爭的經驗那麼"},{"start":32.213,"end":53.654,"text":"二無戰爭有一部分的經驗今天並沒有包含在內也就是烏克蘭對在黑海跟克里米亞所有俄國軍艦攻擊的都是無人艇並非無人機那麼這個在下次的時候可以把它融入因為現在無人趨勢發展的我們講自主性的包括UAV"},{"start":54.758,"end":55.359,"text":"無人機運用的現況及發展"},{"start":79.059,"end":88.747,"text":"所以比方講我們有一架新的戰鬥機我們希望能夠1比2 1比1.8或者1比1.5但是在俄烏戰爭中你所看到的小部隊的"},{"start":89.827,"end":90.147,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":117.981,"end":144.843,"text":"用這個程度來向各位你現在看到的就是說我們現在五款商規的無人機也提到了自然因素那最主要就是商規無人機他所有的通訊他的頻段全部是由NCC來管制的因此國防部要要求NCC提供更寬裕的軍用頻調不然你是不夠用的"},{"start":146.62,"end":174.235,"text":"現在我們講在陳平時期你用商規的你用通信平台的不管你是用中華電信的或用船的我們看到我們這個得標的廠商是跟中華電信簽約那中華電信對於你通信距離的範圍在物體特性裡面就是飛機的高度加上天線的高度再乘上4.12等於你偵測的距離這是一個變數它不是一個常數"},{"start":176.246,"end":195.072,"text":"所以你又要傳回即時完整的圖像這圖像又涉及到了解析度問題了這個跟所謂4K啊800萬畫素是另外一回事因為你通信頻道的傳輸速度跟頻寬比方講你是解析度是10公分"},{"start":196.212,"end":196.232,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":211.018,"end":211.098,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":240.848,"end":264.896,"text":"但是這個跳屏跟我們國軍用的Link-16那完全不是相同的比例所以Link-16是不怕干擾的但一般國內無人機的跳屏那個數字很容易被蓋過去就被干擾到了另外還有一個就是在陳平時期因為你本身有GPS的坐標如果你暫時被蓋台你自己的位置就掌握不住了"},{"start":265.851,"end":294.255,"text":"你跟你共同圖像的同步比較做不出來再不能結合你的雷達站所以你在海上看到的目標它實際的方位距離跟送回來的影像的位置是有落差的這個部分我們提供建議就是說要強調商規軍用無人機在陳平時期跟作戰時期它的運用限制因素NCC要放寬我的頻道需求"},{"start":295.589,"end":295.629,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":324.892,"end":352.72,"text":"英國供應商提供收購的終端機是1300個STARLINK但是呢 烏克蘭的軍隊醫院企業所有的通訊用了4萬2000個末端所以他一個月提供800萬美元那今天呢我們的NCC可能跟英國的OneWeb簽了約但是簽約裡面包含多少個終端跟用戶點我們不知道"},{"start":353.908,"end":376.95,"text":"就算他的錢只是STARLINK的一半你是暗月又是你是機動台定點的台便宜機動台是10倍所以這些東西在使用端大家要先掌握到就是看起來它是消耗型可以減少了國軍人員的耗損我講的是特別是這種近距離的消耗型的"},{"start":377.651,"end":377.971,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":397.91,"end":402.793,"text":"國軍需要的頻寬要擴大,要有預量的tolerance,你不能把陳平時期想像的正常變成暫時的有效運用"},{"start":419.502,"end":431.998,"text":"他確實可以減少人員的損失但是在使用成本上載具無人機它的成本不高但是因為你要掛頻道要分享你這個頻寬你要買那麼多的門號這個錢要預印就是說要編列進去"},{"start":438.134,"end":452.251,"text":"那這個就是自動化跟人文啊未來所謂的這個回路設計啊那剛才講有提到就是說要把AI導入那這種AI導入通常是在大型"},{"start":453.754,"end":479.094,"text":"連戰的無人機上他有決策但是這裡面就產生了一個作戰準則跟這個ROE了就是說哪些東西是指揮官授權哪些東西要回饋要變更目標要人我們講man in the loop on the loop小型無人機消耗型對單一目標看到確認就創他擊毀了man out of loop這些東西在準則叫範要履訂清楚"},{"start":479.835,"end":506.835,"text":"另外一個就是剛才有委員在問這個你的訓練中心啊如何啊我們做一個建言就是說假設你迎擊部隊能夠編配有兩種到三種不同的無人機我們建議做一個實驗編裝用一個排級單位在直屬這個營底下他有三種飛機那我們訓練的結果這個是可以協助減少很多的不和不要每個人都去試用實驗編裝的方式"},{"start":509.572,"end":525.362,"text":"6個月,1年之內,得出的結果,修正準則教範,再加上你裝備的編配比。最後就是說,如果一個,比方講一個單獨的操作單位,有3種無人機,有15架,我合格的操作手有多少?"},{"start":525.842,"end":540.476,"text":"那真正這種連戰型的大型無人機要結合國軍的完整的執管他甚至是一架飛機起飛有三個人四個人坐在操作室裡面還要結合我們現有的完整的執管系統這個跟這個不能一概而論"},{"start":543.131,"end":568.204,"text":"這個是魚叉跟美國的先進的這個海麻雀飛彈它在末端就是有一種main in the loop的概念不是全自動那現在最主要的是飛行的控制能力載台的功能圖像傳遞的效能這個我想我提醒我們聯三在協調過程尤其是配合廠商提供的論述要講得清楚是"},{"start":571.673,"end":597.544,"text":"軍用無人機的研製中科院我們是支持的中型民用無人機的遠距離的情監偵這個整合就是剛剛講的通訊頻寬抗干擾的能力這個我們共同來努力小型無人機如果只是空拍不是急偵急打的話比較單純但是急偵急打的就涉及到了你的精準度會不會誤判授權的原因所以"},{"start":598.943,"end":619.378,"text":"商用的小型無人機我建議在法規上對即爭即打的定義要強調清楚因為如果誤判錯判烏克蘭打城鎮之間的30公里都是在丘陵在樹林去打俄國的但是如果今天是城鎮戰你對目標的判斷"},{"start":620.612,"end":637.006,"text":"所以這個在系統裡面有些權責上就必須man in the loop而不是完全授權那麼最後的建議就是我們對於美國提供的這個大型的這個MQ-9B因為這個是非常重要的當然要整合到我們國軍的整體運用裡面"},{"start":639.109,"end":665.408,"text":"關鍵在於它的料配件是完全要送國美國去修也不做計轉因此未來大型無人機我們還是建議中科院要扮演一個更大的角色這個一定要自己建立那麼這四架飛機會帶給我們一些虛擬的運用觀念也可以用這個立項工程思考的原因啊方法來把我們現有中科院已經有的這個中型無人機做性能提升那麼"},{"start":667.247,"end":695.222,"text":"我們也感謝美方長期的支持但是最後我這邊強調的我們真正無人系統的關鍵還是在於中科院民間的廠商能提供部分的協作減少我們研發時間我們是肯定但是在使用單位最後就是跟NCC特別要求給我足夠的頻寬而不是用平常就說買個手機門號的方式沒有關係我可以充分使用暫時這個依靠度如果"},{"start":695.862,"end":698.543,"text":"委員特別提到烏克蘭運用無人艇的一個很成功的案例 這個部分我們已經收集很多資料 也在做暫時的研究"},{"start":721.007,"end":747.216,"text":"未來會融入到相關的這個戰術研析裡面第二個部分有講到這個無人機的訓練事實上我們的無人機訓練是用一個類別的概念來分類依照軍種的訓練需求現在空軍已經有一個班隊那入軍他要成立一個訓練中心這個訓練中心不是要純粹訓練這些他最主要是要獲得證照那"},{"start":747.896,"end":772.074,"text":"其他人員的訓練剛剛部長也特別提到要結合到接裝的一個過程還有廠家的訓練這操作是有整體在做規劃的那有關於OneWeb的頻率管理事實上我們跟數位部都已經談好了國科會談好了我們獲得數量都已經按照期程在做那至於它的這個費用的部分也"},{"start":774.296,"end":790.261,"text":"吳仁基剛才特別提到我們跟NCC是讓他有一個導控的頻率還有一個下船的頻率這個分屏的部分我們一直在跟他爭取這個部分由聯六持續在跟NCC在協調當中那剛才特別強調一個武裝衝突法"},{"start":792.202,"end":805.058,"text":"有關於這個所謂的攻擊型無人機我們也把美方要求的嚴禁那個附帶損失管控這個損失把人的因素放在裡面這個我們持續再跟美方再做協調謝謝"},{"start":808.621,"end":832.29,"text":"謝謝陳永康委員那聯六如果NCC溝通有問題的話我們可能要給你一個期限我覺得委員會可以當你們的後盾因為傳輸跟控制那個頻寬平時跟暫時確實不一樣你不先備好你平常就會很難用如果你在溝通上遇到官僚體系比較困難的時候我們委員會應該可以幫你們協助做一些不管是決議等等好不好聯六有需求請提到委員會"},{"start":832.971,"end":833.051,"text":"謝謝總管委員"}]}}}}