{"id":150487,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150487","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d50a74141803a3b66ae53fb40122520aebf8ba9b0039caa7a6fdd133de7319c8ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:04:18 - 11:14:19","影片長度":"00:10:01","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查「行人交通安全設施條例草案」(一)行政院函請審議「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案。(二)委員黃捷等16人擬具「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案。【上開議案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,23-1"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":601,"end_time":"2024-03-27T11:14:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T11:04:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":554,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時4分）謝謝主席，請林部長跟吳署長。"],["主席：請部長、署長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長好。首先謝謝部長，這些年來本席對於臺中市很多行人人行道的改善、增設或修繕的提案，內政部都給予支持，吳署長也多次跟我一起會勘，所以我在這裡先表示感謝，今天能夠站在質詢臺上來繼續深入就教這個問題，我想也是一個難得的機會。我想署長會比較清楚，部長因為過去擔任基隆市長，我想你也很清楚，本席過去一直在主張，基本上臺灣作為行人地獄這件事情是對臺灣最大的羞辱，也是臺灣在國際上，甚至作為一個臺灣人，其實我們過去馬路真的就是馬路，因為現在沒有馬，所以馬路其實叫做車路，它不是人在走的，我們過去的思維從頭到尾都是這樣。蔡總統上任這些年來，我們不斷的爭取、提議，中央行政單位也都積極開始動作，今天這部法就是給行人交通安全設施的預算一個法源，但是其實我們光改善設施是不夠的，所以我們也同時在進行很多修法，剛剛林俊憲委員所提的其實也是其中的一項。換言之，不管中央政府或地方政府，首長如果沒有以行人為出發，也就是一個城市的建設不以人本做出發，就會出現你沒有規範到的。譬如說某處要蓋房子，周邊的人行道在修繕，馬路在修繕，我們從沒有把行人的權利納入思考，大家都只就目前想到的，譬如說要把它圍起來，不要讓這個工地有危險發生，但是從來沒有思考圍起來之後，人要往哪裡走。所以，就我的看法，此事涉及的不只是內政部跟交通部而已，所有各部會，包括任何政府要做任何設施，首先應該考慮人怎麼來，人怎麼離開，這就是以人為本的思考，我想部長擔任過地方首長，應該特別有感受。","本席過去也舉了很多例子，我以前還拍過一個影片，就是當一個爸爸媽媽，因為我也生三個孩子，我有空的時候也要照顧小孩，一個媽媽或者一個爸爸如果推著一個嬰兒推車在臺灣走路，他會面臨到要過五關斬六將才能夠達到目的。隨便以臺中市舉例，第一個你可能會遇到行道樹，所以署長你跟我會勘的時候，我已經講過很多遍了，就是行道樹不要種在人行道中間。你把行道樹種在中央，行人要走左邊太小，走右邊也太小，結果人行道上面是什麼，是樹在站的地方，人不可以走，因為你把樹就種在中間，然後樹的面積又大，你的人行道小，樹種在中間，所以人只好怎麼樣？讓樹站在那裡，人就走到慢車道，所以我推嬰兒推車要是遇到行道樹，我就推到人行道。我閃過了行道樹接下來我會遇到電箱（電筒），它也會設在人行道上面，我閃過了電箱，我還會遇到什麼？路燈。路燈也會設在人行道上面，而且老喜歡把它設在最中間的位置，讓你左邊也不能過，右邊也不能過，所以臺灣的爸爸媽媽要帶小孩子走路，特別是用嬰兒推車的時候，那真的是過五關斬六將，我都把它拍成影片了，很辛苦啦！","所以第一個，我們也都知道這些東西都要改善，但是談到要改善，我們以實務經驗來講，本席認為應該都要有順序。騎樓是最困難的，就像我們在過去處理道安的時候，騎樓可不可以停車，這是最困難的，當過地方首長的人都知道，這部分會跟民眾的權益以及民眾的生活習慣產生很大的衝突，所以一定要有處理的順序，這是第一個本席要提醒的，處理人行道的問題，一定要有順序的來處理，由最簡單的進到最難的，由最容易做的著手。譬如說包括新興地區，我們相關的都市計畫也應該去規範新興地區要蓋房子的地方，你怎麼透過地方政府在發放建照、使照的過程，事先在審查的時候就要預留出很舒適的行人空間；樹要怎麼種、電筒要放在哪裡，這個最容易，因為你現在處理的是在發照的區域嘛，所以這部分的法令若有不足，內政部應該儘速來規範，甚至要求每一個地方政府在審查新建建案的時候應該就有一個規範，一開始就跟你講你的房子要怎麼蓋，你要預留出多大的人行道的空間。","那第二個就是剛剛我們條例裡面去提到的，包括醫院、學校，因為這是公共設施，公共設施的周邊政府跟民眾的權益衝突性小，這個就是我們這個法案很重要的重點，所以我們編列的預算一定要從這裡來做，那逐漸的當社會上大家開始習慣走人行道的時候，那些最困難的問題才有機會去挑戰跟解決，這就是順序。","第二個，本席認為預算編了，我們透過條例然後編了這個預算，我看了一下目前已經在執行的大概就是四、五百億的預算，那這個預算有沒有加入競爭？也就是說，因為這個錢都用來補助地方政府，我們有沒有加入地方政府的競爭？請部長回答一下。"],["林部長右昌：好，非常謝謝委員，其實你剛剛的一番話也正是我想講的，非常的正確，那地方政府有沒有競爭的機制？其實是有的，不過也同樣是優先的順序，我們現在最主要要處理的就是交通部所列管易肇事路口這個清單的部分，另外就是地方政府現在提出來在今年年底可以把它施作完成的這個部分，還有就是有一些民眾可能會透過參與的過程提出來。另外就是透過一個競爭的機制，由地方政府提，我們來做相關的審查，所以這個部分會有。"],["蔡委員其昌：對每一個案子的補助，地方政府都要有自籌款對不對？"],["林部長右昌：剛剛前面講的那三個沒有，那個我們會百分之百補，如果是地方提的話，會有地方的分配。"],["蔡委員其昌：我記得對危險路口交通部有整理一個全國行人事故熱點的清單，各縣市的狀況都清清楚楚，本席建議那個競爭就是縣市首長都要負起責任，也就是說，縣市首長越想改善人行道，中央就更應該大力支持，這個就是本席所說的競爭，因為有一些縣市首長就是不在乎，他覺得人行道就是這樣子嘛！所以他也不願意投入自己的預算，我覺得這個應該要考量，在內政部設計補助要點的時候應該把這個考量進去，就是地方政府展現更大的決心想要改善它的城市的人行道，那我們給予的資源就應該要相對比較多。我認為除了我們中央要統籌解決，譬如說危險路口等等之外，我覺得我們對地方政府的首長也應該把這個競爭的機制加在裡面，投入越多，我們補助越多，這個可不可以來設計？"],["林部長右昌：我想這個當然是我們的一個共識，第二個，其實這次4年400億，我們內政部是240億，然後交通部是160億，這個跟過去我們在處理人行通道的經費相比，其實是增加了很多，所以經費基本上不是問題，只要地方積極提案，我想都可以全力來支持。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我覺得這一次當然編列的經費比以前多太多，表示中央政府很重視。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：但是我的意思是要告訴部長，不要說500億啦！我編5,000億，全臺灣要做到人行道讓大家有感，金額還是很少啦！因為這個要走路的地方太多了。"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告，你剛剛提到一個非常重要的，就是優先順序，我們現在定的KPI跟過去會不一樣，以前我們就是看做多少長度，但是長度如果沒有連續的話，對人行的通行一樣是沒有辦法達到效果。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯。"],["林部長右昌：所以這一次我們會強調重視那個連續性的部分。"],["蔡委員其昌：連續性，然後是選擇的地點嘛！那再來就是地方政府有沒有投入，首長對於行人的權益願不願意用他自己的行動、法規或者預算來展現縣市首長的決心，這個也應該一併納入考慮。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡其昌委員的質詢。我們請下一位徐富癸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,23-1","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","黃建賓","蘇巧慧","李昆澤","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","徐富癸","何欣純","林沛祥","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","廖先翔","吳思瑤","黃珊珊","游顥","洪申翰","李柏毅","陳冠廷","吳沛憶","陳素月","魯明哲","黃仁","劉建國","林國成","張智倫","丁學忠","林月琴","張雅琳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查「行人交通安全設施條例草案」(一)行政院函請審議「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案；\n(二)委員黃捷等16人擬具「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1132101_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"150487","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150487","tool":"pyannote","id":"150487-pyannote"},"job_id":"moiYMw1jBGU0EtYK","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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\"員\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"捷\", \"start\": 577.91, \"end\": 577.97, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 577.97, \"end\": 577.99, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 577.99, \"end\": 578.03, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"擬\"}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 578.03, \"end\": 578.05, \"score\": 0.013}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,974 --> 00:00:07,299\n謝謝主席。請林部長跟吳署長。部長好。首先謝謝部長。我想這些年來包括本席對於台中市很多\n\n2\n00:00:18,995 --> 00:00:46,649\n行人、人行道的改善或者增設或者修善內政部都給予支持吳署長也多次跟我一起會刊所以我在這裡先表示感謝今天有機會站在資訊台上來繼續深入就教這個問題我想也是一個難得的機會我想署長會比較清楚部長因為過去當任基隆市長我想你也很清楚\n\n3\n00:00:47,654 --> 00:01:11,686\n本席過去一直在主張基本上要臺灣作為行人地域這件事情是對臺灣最大的羞辱也是臺灣在國際上甚至作為一個臺灣人其實我們過去馬路真的就是馬路因為現在沒有馬所以馬路其實叫車路它不是人在走的我們過去的思維從頭到尾都是這個樣子\n\n4\n00:01:14,259 --> 00:01:26,834\n蔡總統上任這些年來我們不斷的爭取提議那我想這個中央行政單位也都積極開始動作所以今天這個是給這個設施的預算有一個法令\n\n5\n00:01:28,281 --> 00:01:51,352\n但是同時我們其實要改善的光設施其實不夠所以我們也同時在進行很多修法剛剛林俊賢委員的其實也是其中的一項也就是說如果不管中央政府地方政府首長如果沒有以行人為出發也就是一個城市的建設不以人本做出發你就會出現你沒有規範到的\n\n6\n00:01:53,220 --> 00:02:09,669\n例如說周邊要蓋房子周邊的人行道修繕馬路在修繕我們從沒有把行人的權利放到裡面去大家只就目前大家想到例如說要被圍起來不要讓這個工地有危險發生\n\n7\n00:02:10,669 --> 00:02:35,679\n但是從來沒有思考說你委起來後人要走到哪裡所以其實在我來看法這個其實不只是內政部跟交通部而已這個其實所有的各部會包括你任何的政府要做任何的設施你首先應該考慮人怎麼來人怎麼離開這個就是以人為本的思考我想部長當任地方首長應該特別有感受\n\n8\n00:02:36,799 --> 00:03:02,797\n本席過去也舉了很多例子本來我今天還拍了一個影片我以前就拍了就是當一個爸爸媽媽因為我也生三個孩子我有空的時候也要照顧小孩那一個媽媽或一個爸爸如果推著一個嬰兒推車他在台灣走路他會面臨到要過五關斬六將他才能夠達到目的\n\n9\n00:03:04,236 --> 00:03:16,999\n隨便以台中市做舉例啊第一個你可能會遇到行道樹所以署長你跟我會開的時候我已經多次在講過很多遍了就是行道樹不要種在中間啊\n\n10\n00:03:22,316 --> 00:03:45,128\n人行道上面是什麼?是樹站在站的地方人不可以走因為你把樹就種在中間嘛然後樹的面積又大所以呢你人行道小樹種在中間所以人只好怎麼樣讓樹站在那裡人就走到慢車道所以我推嬰兒推車要遇到人行道樹我就走推到人行道\n\n11\n00:03:45,948 --> 00:03:57,598\n我閃過了行道樹接下來我會遇到那個電箱電燙啊他也會設在這個人行道上面我閃過了電箱我還會遇到什麼路燈\n\n12\n00:04:20,711 --> 00:04:32,713\n所以第一個我們也都知道這些東西都要改善但改善我們以實務的經驗來講他本席認為都應該要有順序啦騎樓是最困難的\n\n13\n00:04:34,192 --> 00:04:58,187\n就像我們在過去處理道案的時候騎樓可不可以停車這個是最困難的所以當過地方首長的人都知道這個會跟民眾權益他的生活習慣產生很大的衝突所以一定要有順序的就第一個本席提醒處理人行道的問題一定要有順序的來處理由最簡單的進到最難的\n\n14\n00:05:00,066 --> 00:05:24,842\n由最容易做的比如說包括新興地區我們的相關的都市計畫也應該去規範相關的新興的要蓋房子的地方你怎麼事先透過地方政府的這個建造始造的發放去事先在審查的時候就已經要預留出很舒適的行人空間樹要怎麼種這個最容易嘛因為你現在在發照\n\n15\n00:05:28,804 --> 00:05:45,072\n的區域。所以這個法令若有不足內政部應該儘速來規範甚至要求每一個地方政府在審查新建建案的時候他應該就有一個一開始就跟你講這個房子要怎麼蓋的你要預留出多大的人行道的空間\n\n16\n00:05:46,357 --> 00:05:47,518\n公共設施的周邊政府跟民眾的權益衝突性小這個就是我們這個法案很重要的重點\n\n17\n00:06:03,086 --> 00:06:31,098\n所以我們編列的預算一定要從這裡來做那逐漸的當大家社會開始習慣走人行道的時候那些最困難的問題才有機會去挑戰跟解決啦這就是順序第二個本席認為預算編了我們用透過條例然後編了這個預算包括現在已經大概光目前在執行的我看了一下大概就四五百億的預算那這個預算有沒有加入競爭\n\n18\n00:06:32,523 --> 00:07:01,921\n也就是說我們因為這個錢都用來補助地方政府我們有沒有加入地方政府的競爭請部長回答一下非常謝謝委員其實你剛剛的一番話其實也正是我想講的非常的正確地方政府有沒有競爭的機制其實是有的不過也同樣是優先的順序我們現在最主要要處理就是交通部列管的依照式的路口這個清單的部分\n\n19\n00:07:02,461 --> 00:07:21,621\n另外就是地方政府現在提出來的今年年底可以把它施作完成的這一部分另外就是有一些民眾可能會透過參與的過程提出來另外就是透過競爭的一個機制地方政府提我們來做相關的一個審查每一個案子的補助地方政府都要有自籌款對不對\n\n20\n00:07:23,643 --> 00:07:27,967\n除了那個危險入口我記得那個危險入口我們有整理一張那個交通部有整理一個全國行人事故熱點的清單那各縣市的這個狀況這邊清清楚楚那本席建議那個競爭就是說\n\n21\n00:07:49,601 --> 00:08:07,574\n現事首長都要負起責任也就是說現事首長越想改善人行道的中央就更應該大力支持這個就是本席的競爭了就有一些先手他就不在乎嘛他就覺得人行道就是這樣子嘛所以他也不願意投入自己的預算\n\n22\n00:08:08,871 --> 00:08:38,211\n我覺得這個應該考量在內政部設計補助要點的時候應該把這個考量進去地方政府展現更大的決心想要改善他的城市的人行道那我們相對給予的資源就應該多這個就是我認為除了我們中央要統籌解決比如說這個危險路口啦等等其他的之外我們覺得對地方政府這些地方首長我們也應該給予這個競爭的機制在裡面投入越多我們補助越多這個可不可以來設計\n\n23\n00:08:39,531 --> 00:09:00,363\n我想這個當然是我們的一個共識。那第二個其實這一次四年四百億,我們內政部240,然後中央部160。這個跟過去我們在處理這個人行通道的這些經費其實是增加很多。所以經費基本上不是問題。只要地方積極提案我想都可以全力來支持。\n\n24\n00:09:01,343 --> 00:09:18,873\n我覺得這一次是當然編列比以前多太多表示中央政府很重視但是我的意思要告訴部長說不要說500億啦我編5000億全台灣要做到人行道有感還是很少啦因為這個要走路的地方太多了嘛\n\n25\n00:09:19,113 --> 00:09:35,027\n委員我跟您報告你剛剛提到一個非常重要的優先順序我們現在訂的KPI跟過去會不一樣以前我們就是看做多少長度但是長度如果沒有連續的話它對人型的通行一樣是沒有辦法達到效果所以這一次我們會強調重視那個連續性的部分\n\n26\n00:09:37,790 --> 00:09:38,050\n委員黃捷等16人擬具\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3974\t7299\t謝謝主席。請林部長跟吳署長。部長好。首先謝謝部長。我想這些年來包括本席對於台中市很多\n18995\t46649\t行人、人行道的改善或者增設或者修善內政部都給予支持吳署長也多次跟我一起會刊所以我在這裡先表示感謝今天有機會站在資訊台上來繼續深入就教這個問題我想也是一個難得的機會我想署長會比較清楚部長因為過去當任基隆市長我想你也很清楚\n47654\t71686\t本席過去一直在主張基本上要臺灣作為行人地域這件事情是對臺灣最大的羞辱也是臺灣在國際上甚至作為一個臺灣人其實我們過去馬路真的就是馬路因為現在沒有馬所以馬路其實叫車路它不是人在走的我們過去的思維從頭到尾都是這個樣子\n74259\t86834\t蔡總統上任這些年來我們不斷的爭取提議那我想這個中央行政單位也都積極開始動作所以今天這個是給這個設施的預算有一個法令\n88281\t111352\t但是同時我們其實要改善的光設施其實不夠所以我們也同時在進行很多修法剛剛林俊賢委員的其實也是其中的一項也就是說如果不管中央政府地方政府首長如果沒有以行人為出發也就是一個城市的建設不以人本做出發你就會出現你沒有規範到的\n113220\t129669\t例如說周邊要蓋房子周邊的人行道修繕馬路在修繕我們從沒有把行人的權利放到裡面去大家只就目前大家想到例如說要被圍起來不要讓這個工地有危險發生\n130669\t155679\t但是從來沒有思考說你委起來後人要走到哪裡所以其實在我來看法這個其實不只是內政部跟交通部而已這個其實所有的各部會包括你任何的政府要做任何的設施你首先應該考慮人怎麼來人怎麼離開這個就是以人為本的思考我想部長當任地方首長應該特別有感受\n156799\t182797\t本席過去也舉了很多例子本來我今天還拍了一個影片我以前就拍了就是當一個爸爸媽媽因為我也生三個孩子我有空的時候也要照顧小孩那一個媽媽或一個爸爸如果推著一個嬰兒推車他在台灣走路他會面臨到要過五關斬六將他才能夠達到目的\n184236\t196999\t隨便以台中市做舉例啊第一個你可能會遇到行道樹所以署長你跟我會開的時候我已經多次在講過很多遍了就是行道樹不要種在中間啊\n202316\t225128\t人行道上面是什麼?是樹站在站的地方人不可以走因為你把樹就種在中間嘛然後樹的面積又大所以呢你人行道小樹種在中間所以人只好怎麼樣讓樹站在那裡人就走到慢車道所以我推嬰兒推車要遇到人行道樹我就走推到人行道\n225948\t237598\t我閃過了行道樹接下來我會遇到那個電箱電燙啊他也會設在這個人行道上面我閃過了電箱我還會遇到什麼路燈\n239036\t259974\t⋯⋯\n260711\t272713\t所以第一個我們也都知道這些東西都要改善但改善我們以實務的經驗來講他本席認為都應該要有順序啦騎樓是最困難的\n274192\t298187\t就像我們在過去處理道案的時候騎樓可不可以停車這個是最困難的所以當過地方首長的人都知道這個會跟民眾權益他的生活習慣產生很大的衝突所以一定要有順序的就第一個本席提醒處理人行道的問題一定要有順序的來處理由最簡單的進到最難的\n300066\t324842\t由最容易做的比如說包括新興地區我們的相關的都市計畫也應該去規範相關的新興的要蓋房子的地方你怎麼事先透過地方政府的這個建造始造的發放去事先在審查的時候就已經要預留出很舒適的行人空間樹要怎麼種這個最容易嘛因為你現在在發照\n328804\t345072\t的區域。所以這個法令若有不足內政部應該儘速來規範甚至要求每一個地方政府在審查新建建案的時候他應該就有一個一開始就跟你講這個房子要怎麼蓋的你要預留出多大的人行道的空間\n346357\t347518\t公共設施的周邊政府跟民眾的權益衝突性小這個就是我們這個法案很重要的重點\n363086\t391098\t所以我們編列的預算一定要從這裡來做那逐漸的當大家社會開始習慣走人行道的時候那些最困難的問題才有機會去挑戰跟解決啦這就是順序第二個本席認為預算編了我們用透過條例然後編了這個預算包括現在已經大概光目前在執行的我看了一下大概就四五百億的預算那這個預算有沒有加入競爭\n392523\t421921\t也就是說我們因為這個錢都用來補助地方政府我們有沒有加入地方政府的競爭請部長回答一下非常謝謝委員其實你剛剛的一番話其實也正是我想講的非常的正確地方政府有沒有競爭的機制其實是有的不過也同樣是優先的順序我們現在最主要要處理就是交通部列管的依照式的路口這個清單的部分\n422461\t441621\t另外就是地方政府現在提出來的今年年底可以把它施作完成的這一部分另外就是有一些民眾可能會透過參與的過程提出來另外就是透過競爭的一個機制地方政府提我們來做相關的一個審查每一個案子的補助地方政府都要有自籌款對不對\n443643\t447967\t除了那個危險入口我記得那個危險入口我們有整理一張那個交通部有整理一個全國行人事故熱點的清單那各縣市的這個狀況這邊清清楚楚那本席建議那個競爭就是說\n469601\t487574\t現事首長都要負起責任也就是說現事首長越想改善人行道的中央就更應該大力支持這個就是本席的競爭了就有一些先手他就不在乎嘛他就覺得人行道就是這樣子嘛所以他也不願意投入自己的預算\n488871\t518211\t我覺得這個應該考量在內政部設計補助要點的時候應該把這個考量進去地方政府展現更大的決心想要改善他的城市的人行道那我們相對給予的資源就應該多這個就是我認為除了我們中央要統籌解決比如說這個危險路口啦等等其他的之外我們覺得對地方政府這些地方首長我們也應該給予這個競爭的機制在裡面投入越多我們補助越多這個可不可以來設計\n519531\t540363\t我想這個當然是我們的一個共識。那第二個其實這一次四年四百億,我們內政部240,然後中央部160。這個跟過去我們在處理這個人行通道的這些經費其實是增加很多。所以經費基本上不是問題。只要地方積極提案我想都可以全力來支持。\n541343\t558873\t我覺得這一次是當然編列比以前多太多表示中央政府很重視但是我的意思要告訴部長說不要說500億啦我編5000億全台灣要做到人行道有感還是很少啦因為這個要走路的地方太多了嘛\n559113\t575027\t委員我跟您報告你剛剛提到一個非常重要的優先順序我們現在訂的KPI跟過去會不一樣以前我們就是看做多少長度但是長度如果沒有連續的話它對人型的通行一樣是沒有辦法達到效果所以這一次我們會強調重視那個連續性的部分\n577790\t578050\t委員黃捷等16人擬具\n","txt":"謝謝主席。請林部長跟吳署長。部長好。首先謝謝部長。我想這些年來包括本席對於台中市很多\n行人、人行道的改善或者增設或者修善內政部都給予支持吳署長也多次跟我一起會刊所以我在這裡先表示感謝今天有機會站在資訊台上來繼續深入就教這個問題我想也是一個難得的機會我想署長會比較清楚部長因為過去當任基隆市長我想你也很清楚\n本席過去一直在主張基本上要臺灣作為行人地域這件事情是對臺灣最大的羞辱也是臺灣在國際上甚至作為一個臺灣人其實我們過去馬路真的就是馬路因為現在沒有馬所以馬路其實叫車路它不是人在走的我們過去的思維從頭到尾都是這個樣子\n蔡總統上任這些年來我們不斷的爭取提議那我想這個中央行政單位也都積極開始動作所以今天這個是給這個設施的預算有一個法令\n但是同時我們其實要改善的光設施其實不夠所以我們也同時在進行很多修法剛剛林俊賢委員的其實也是其中的一項也就是說如果不管中央政府地方政府首長如果沒有以行人為出發也就是一個城市的建設不以人本做出發你就會出現你沒有規範到的\n例如說周邊要蓋房子周邊的人行道修繕馬路在修繕我們從沒有把行人的權利放到裡面去大家只就目前大家想到例如說要被圍起來不要讓這個工地有危險發生\n但是從來沒有思考說你委起來後人要走到哪裡所以其實在我來看法這個其實不只是內政部跟交通部而已這個其實所有的各部會包括你任何的政府要做任何的設施你首先應該考慮人怎麼來人怎麼離開這個就是以人為本的思考我想部長當任地方首長應該特別有感受\n本席過去也舉了很多例子本來我今天還拍了一個影片我以前就拍了就是當一個爸爸媽媽因為我也生三個孩子我有空的時候也要照顧小孩那一個媽媽或一個爸爸如果推著一個嬰兒推車他在台灣走路他會面臨到要過五關斬六將他才能夠達到目的\n隨便以台中市做舉例啊第一個你可能會遇到行道樹所以署長你跟我會開的時候我已經多次在講過很多遍了就是行道樹不要種在中間啊\n人行道上面是什麼?是樹站在站的地方人不可以走因為你把樹就種在中間嘛然後樹的面積又大所以呢你人行道小樹種在中間所以人只好怎麼樣讓樹站在那裡人就走到慢車道所以我推嬰兒推車要遇到人行道樹我就走推到人行道\n我閃過了行道樹接下來我會遇到那個電箱電燙啊他也會設在這個人行道上面我閃過了電箱我還會遇到什麼路燈\n⋯⋯\n所以第一個我們也都知道這些東西都要改善但改善我們以實務的經驗來講他本席認為都應該要有順序啦騎樓是最困難的\n就像我們在過去處理道案的時候騎樓可不可以停車這個是最困難的所以當過地方首長的人都知道這個會跟民眾權益他的生活習慣產生很大的衝突所以一定要有順序的就第一個本席提醒處理人行道的問題一定要有順序的來處理由最簡單的進到最難的\n由最容易做的比如說包括新興地區我們的相關的都市計畫也應該去規範相關的新興的要蓋房子的地方你怎麼事先透過地方政府的這個建造始造的發放去事先在審查的時候就已經要預留出很舒適的行人空間樹要怎麼種這個最容易嘛因為你現在在發照\n的區域。所以這個法令若有不足內政部應該儘速來規範甚至要求每一個地方政府在審查新建建案的時候他應該就有一個一開始就跟你講這個房子要怎麼蓋的你要預留出多大的人行道的空間\n公共設施的周邊政府跟民眾的權益衝突性小這個就是我們這個法案很重要的重點\n所以我們編列的預算一定要從這裡來做那逐漸的當大家社會開始習慣走人行道的時候那些最困難的問題才有機會去挑戰跟解決啦這就是順序第二個本席認為預算編了我們用透過條例然後編了這個預算包括現在已經大概光目前在執行的我看了一下大概就四五百億的預算那這個預算有沒有加入競爭\n也就是說我們因為這個錢都用來補助地方政府我們有沒有加入地方政府的競爭請部長回答一下非常謝謝委員其實你剛剛的一番話其實也正是我想講的非常的正確地方政府有沒有競爭的機制其實是有的不過也同樣是優先的順序我們現在最主要要處理就是交通部列管的依照式的路口這個清單的部分\n另外就是地方政府現在提出來的今年年底可以把它施作完成的這一部分另外就是有一些民眾可能會透過參與的過程提出來另外就是透過競爭的一個機制地方政府提我們來做相關的一個審查每一個案子的補助地方政府都要有自籌款對不對\n除了那個危險入口我記得那個危險入口我們有整理一張那個交通部有整理一個全國行人事故熱點的清單那各縣市的這個狀況這邊清清楚楚那本席建議那個競爭就是說\n現事首長都要負起責任也就是說現事首長越想改善人行道的中央就更應該大力支持這個就是本席的競爭了就有一些先手他就不在乎嘛他就覺得人行道就是這樣子嘛所以他也不願意投入自己的預算\n我覺得這個應該考量在內政部設計補助要點的時候應該把這個考量進去地方政府展現更大的決心想要改善他的城市的人行道那我們相對給予的資源就應該多這個就是我認為除了我們中央要統籌解決比如說這個危險路口啦等等其他的之外我們覺得對地方政府這些地方首長我們也應該給予這個競爭的機制在裡面投入越多我們補助越多這個可不可以來設計\n我想這個當然是我們的一個共識。那第二個其實這一次四年四百億,我們內政部240,然後中央部160。這個跟過去我們在處理這個人行通道的這些經費其實是增加很多。所以經費基本上不是問題。只要地方積極提案我想都可以全力來支持。\n我覺得這一次是當然編列比以前多太多表示中央政府很重視但是我的意思要告訴部長說不要說500億啦我編5000億全台灣要做到人行道有感還是很少啦因為這個要走路的地方太多了嘛\n委員我跟您報告你剛剛提到一個非常重要的優先順序我們現在訂的KPI跟過去會不一樣以前我們就是看做多少長度但是長度如果沒有連續的話它對人型的通行一樣是沒有辦法達到效果所以這一次我們會強調重視那個連續性的部分\n委員黃捷等16人擬具\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.974 --> 00:07.299\n謝謝主席。請林部長跟吳署長。部長好。首先謝謝部長。我想這些年來包括本席對於台中市很多\n\n00:18.995 --> 00:46.649\n行人、人行道的改善或者增設或者修善內政部都給予支持吳署長也多次跟我一起會刊所以我在這裡先表示感謝今天有機會站在資訊台上來繼續深入就教這個問題我想也是一個難得的機會我想署長會比較清楚部長因為過去當任基隆市長我想你也很清楚\n\n00:47.654 --> 01:11.686\n本席過去一直在主張基本上要臺灣作為行人地域這件事情是對臺灣最大的羞辱也是臺灣在國際上甚至作為一個臺灣人其實我們過去馬路真的就是馬路因為現在沒有馬所以馬路其實叫車路它不是人在走的我們過去的思維從頭到尾都是這個樣子\n\n01:14.259 --> 01:26.834\n蔡總統上任這些年來我們不斷的爭取提議那我想這個中央行政單位也都積極開始動作所以今天這個是給這個設施的預算有一個法令\n\n01:28.281 --> 01:51.352\n但是同時我們其實要改善的光設施其實不夠所以我們也同時在進行很多修法剛剛林俊賢委員的其實也是其中的一項也就是說如果不管中央政府地方政府首長如果沒有以行人為出發也就是一個城市的建設不以人本做出發你就會出現你沒有規範到的\n\n01:53.220 --> 02:09.669\n例如說周邊要蓋房子周邊的人行道修繕馬路在修繕我們從沒有把行人的權利放到裡面去大家只就目前大家想到例如說要被圍起來不要讓這個工地有危險發生\n\n02:10.669 --> 02:35.679\n但是從來沒有思考說你委起來後人要走到哪裡所以其實在我來看法這個其實不只是內政部跟交通部而已這個其實所有的各部會包括你任何的政府要做任何的設施你首先應該考慮人怎麼來人怎麼離開這個就是以人為本的思考我想部長當任地方首長應該特別有感受\n\n02:36.799 --> 03:02.797\n本席過去也舉了很多例子本來我今天還拍了一個影片我以前就拍了就是當一個爸爸媽媽因為我也生三個孩子我有空的時候也要照顧小孩那一個媽媽或一個爸爸如果推著一個嬰兒推車他在台灣走路他會面臨到要過五關斬六將他才能夠達到目的\n\n03:04.236 --> 03:16.999\n隨便以台中市做舉例啊第一個你可能會遇到行道樹所以署長你跟我會開的時候我已經多次在講過很多遍了就是行道樹不要種在中間啊\n\n03:22.316 --> 03:45.128\n人行道上面是什麼?是樹站在站的地方人不可以走因為你把樹就種在中間嘛然後樹的面積又大所以呢你人行道小樹種在中間所以人只好怎麼樣讓樹站在那裡人就走到慢車道所以我推嬰兒推車要遇到人行道樹我就走推到人行道\n\n03:45.948 --> 03:57.598\n我閃過了行道樹接下來我會遇到那個電箱電燙啊他也會設在這個人行道上面我閃過了電箱我還會遇到什麼路燈\n\n04:20.711 --> 04:32.713\n所以第一個我們也都知道這些東西都要改善但改善我們以實務的經驗來講他本席認為都應該要有順序啦騎樓是最困難的\n\n04:34.192 --> 04:58.187\n就像我們在過去處理道案的時候騎樓可不可以停車這個是最困難的所以當過地方首長的人都知道這個會跟民眾權益他的生活習慣產生很大的衝突所以一定要有順序的就第一個本席提醒處理人行道的問題一定要有順序的來處理由最簡單的進到最難的\n\n05:00.066 --> 05:24.842\n由最容易做的比如說包括新興地區我們的相關的都市計畫也應該去規範相關的新興的要蓋房子的地方你怎麼事先透過地方政府的這個建造始造的發放去事先在審查的時候就已經要預留出很舒適的行人空間樹要怎麼種這個最容易嘛因為你現在在發照\n\n05:28.804 --> 05:45.072\n的區域。所以這個法令若有不足內政部應該儘速來規範甚至要求每一個地方政府在審查新建建案的時候他應該就有一個一開始就跟你講這個房子要怎麼蓋的你要預留出多大的人行道的空間\n\n05:46.357 --> 05:47.518\n公共設施的周邊政府跟民眾的權益衝突性小這個就是我們這個法案很重要的重點\n\n06:03.086 --> 06:31.098\n所以我們編列的預算一定要從這裡來做那逐漸的當大家社會開始習慣走人行道的時候那些最困難的問題才有機會去挑戰跟解決啦這就是順序第二個本席認為預算編了我們用透過條例然後編了這個預算包括現在已經大概光目前在執行的我看了一下大概就四五百億的預算那這個預算有沒有加入競爭\n\n06:32.523 --> 07:01.921\n也就是說我們因為這個錢都用來補助地方政府我們有沒有加入地方政府的競爭請部長回答一下非常謝謝委員其實你剛剛的一番話其實也正是我想講的非常的正確地方政府有沒有競爭的機制其實是有的不過也同樣是優先的順序我們現在最主要要處理就是交通部列管的依照式的路口這個清單的部分\n\n07:02.461 --> 07:21.621\n另外就是地方政府現在提出來的今年年底可以把它施作完成的這一部分另外就是有一些民眾可能會透過參與的過程提出來另外就是透過競爭的一個機制地方政府提我們來做相關的一個審查每一個案子的補助地方政府都要有自籌款對不對\n\n07:23.643 --> 07:27.967\n除了那個危險入口我記得那個危險入口我們有整理一張那個交通部有整理一個全國行人事故熱點的清單那各縣市的這個狀況這邊清清楚楚那本席建議那個競爭就是說\n\n07:49.601 --> 08:07.574\n現事首長都要負起責任也就是說現事首長越想改善人行道的中央就更應該大力支持這個就是本席的競爭了就有一些先手他就不在乎嘛他就覺得人行道就是這樣子嘛所以他也不願意投入自己的預算\n\n08:08.871 --> 08:38.211\n我覺得這個應該考量在內政部設計補助要點的時候應該把這個考量進去地方政府展現更大的決心想要改善他的城市的人行道那我們相對給予的資源就應該多這個就是我認為除了我們中央要統籌解決比如說這個危險路口啦等等其他的之外我們覺得對地方政府這些地方首長我們也應該給予這個競爭的機制在裡面投入越多我們補助越多這個可不可以來設計\n\n08:39.531 --> 09:00.363\n我想這個當然是我們的一個共識。那第二個其實這一次四年四百億,我們內政部240,然後中央部160。這個跟過去我們在處理這個人行通道的這些經費其實是增加很多。所以經費基本上不是問題。只要地方積極提案我想都可以全力來支持。\n\n09:01.343 --> 09:18.873\n我覺得這一次是當然編列比以前多太多表示中央政府很重視但是我的意思要告訴部長說不要說500億啦我編5000億全台灣要做到人行道有感還是很少啦因為這個要走路的地方太多了嘛\n\n09:19.113 --> 09:35.027\n委員我跟您報告你剛剛提到一個非常重要的優先順序我們現在訂的KPI跟過去會不一樣以前我們就是看做多少長度但是長度如果沒有連續的話它對人型的通行一樣是沒有辦法達到效果所以這一次我們會強調重視那個連續性的部分\n\n09:37.790 --> 09:38.050\n委員黃捷等16人擬具\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.974,"end":7.299,"text":"謝謝主席。請林部長跟吳署長。部長好。首先謝謝部長。我想這些年來包括本席對於台中市很多"},{"start":18.995,"end":46.649,"text":"行人、人行道的改善或者增設或者修善內政部都給予支持吳署長也多次跟我一起會刊所以我在這裡先表示感謝今天有機會站在資訊台上來繼續深入就教這個問題我想也是一個難得的機會我想署長會比較清楚部長因為過去當任基隆市長我想你也很清楚"},{"start":47.654,"end":71.686,"text":"本席過去一直在主張基本上要臺灣作為行人地域這件事情是對臺灣最大的羞辱也是臺灣在國際上甚至作為一個臺灣人其實我們過去馬路真的就是馬路因為現在沒有馬所以馬路其實叫車路它不是人在走的我們過去的思維從頭到尾都是這個樣子"},{"start":74.259,"end":86.834,"text":"蔡總統上任這些年來我們不斷的爭取提議那我想這個中央行政單位也都積極開始動作所以今天這個是給這個設施的預算有一個法令"},{"start":88.281,"end":111.352,"text":"但是同時我們其實要改善的光設施其實不夠所以我們也同時在進行很多修法剛剛林俊賢委員的其實也是其中的一項也就是說如果不管中央政府地方政府首長如果沒有以行人為出發也就是一個城市的建設不以人本做出發你就會出現你沒有規範到的"},{"start":113.22,"end":129.669,"text":"例如說周邊要蓋房子周邊的人行道修繕馬路在修繕我們從沒有把行人的權利放到裡面去大家只就目前大家想到例如說要被圍起來不要讓這個工地有危險發生"},{"start":130.669,"end":155.679,"text":"但是從來沒有思考說你委起來後人要走到哪裡所以其實在我來看法這個其實不只是內政部跟交通部而已這個其實所有的各部會包括你任何的政府要做任何的設施你首先應該考慮人怎麼來人怎麼離開這個就是以人為本的思考我想部長當任地方首長應該特別有感受"},{"start":156.799,"end":182.797,"text":"本席過去也舉了很多例子本來我今天還拍了一個影片我以前就拍了就是當一個爸爸媽媽因為我也生三個孩子我有空的時候也要照顧小孩那一個媽媽或一個爸爸如果推著一個嬰兒推車他在台灣走路他會面臨到要過五關斬六將他才能夠達到目的"},{"start":184.236,"end":196.999,"text":"隨便以台中市做舉例啊第一個你可能會遇到行道樹所以署長你跟我會開的時候我已經多次在講過很多遍了就是行道樹不要種在中間啊"},{"start":202.316,"end":225.128,"text":"人行道上面是什麼?是樹站在站的地方人不可以走因為你把樹就種在中間嘛然後樹的面積又大所以呢你人行道小樹種在中間所以人只好怎麼樣讓樹站在那裡人就走到慢車道所以我推嬰兒推車要遇到人行道樹我就走推到人行道"},{"start":225.948,"end":237.598,"text":"我閃過了行道樹接下來我會遇到那個電箱電燙啊他也會設在這個人行道上面我閃過了電箱我還會遇到什麼路燈"},{"start":239.036,"end":259.974,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":260.711,"end":272.713,"text":"所以第一個我們也都知道這些東西都要改善但改善我們以實務的經驗來講他本席認為都應該要有順序啦騎樓是最困難的"},{"start":274.192,"end":298.187,"text":"就像我們在過去處理道案的時候騎樓可不可以停車這個是最困難的所以當過地方首長的人都知道這個會跟民眾權益他的生活習慣產生很大的衝突所以一定要有順序的就第一個本席提醒處理人行道的問題一定要有順序的來處理由最簡單的進到最難的"},{"start":300.066,"end":324.842,"text":"由最容易做的比如說包括新興地區我們的相關的都市計畫也應該去規範相關的新興的要蓋房子的地方你怎麼事先透過地方政府的這個建造始造的發放去事先在審查的時候就已經要預留出很舒適的行人空間樹要怎麼種這個最容易嘛因為你現在在發照"},{"start":328.804,"end":345.072,"text":"的區域。所以這個法令若有不足內政部應該儘速來規範甚至要求每一個地方政府在審查新建建案的時候他應該就有一個一開始就跟你講這個房子要怎麼蓋的你要預留出多大的人行道的空間"},{"start":346.357,"end":347.518,"text":"公共設施的周邊政府跟民眾的權益衝突性小這個就是我們這個法案很重要的重點"},{"start":363.086,"end":391.098,"text":"所以我們編列的預算一定要從這裡來做那逐漸的當大家社會開始習慣走人行道的時候那些最困難的問題才有機會去挑戰跟解決啦這就是順序第二個本席認為預算編了我們用透過條例然後編了這個預算包括現在已經大概光目前在執行的我看了一下大概就四五百億的預算那這個預算有沒有加入競爭"},{"start":392.523,"end":421.921,"text":"也就是說我們因為這個錢都用來補助地方政府我們有沒有加入地方政府的競爭請部長回答一下非常謝謝委員其實你剛剛的一番話其實也正是我想講的非常的正確地方政府有沒有競爭的機制其實是有的不過也同樣是優先的順序我們現在最主要要處理就是交通部列管的依照式的路口這個清單的部分"},{"start":422.461,"end":441.621,"text":"另外就是地方政府現在提出來的今年年底可以把它施作完成的這一部分另外就是有一些民眾可能會透過參與的過程提出來另外就是透過競爭的一個機制地方政府提我們來做相關的一個審查每一個案子的補助地方政府都要有自籌款對不對"},{"start":443.643,"end":447.967,"text":"除了那個危險入口我記得那個危險入口我們有整理一張那個交通部有整理一個全國行人事故熱點的清單那各縣市的這個狀況這邊清清楚楚那本席建議那個競爭就是說"},{"start":469.601,"end":487.574,"text":"現事首長都要負起責任也就是說現事首長越想改善人行道的中央就更應該大力支持這個就是本席的競爭了就有一些先手他就不在乎嘛他就覺得人行道就是這樣子嘛所以他也不願意投入自己的預算"},{"start":488.871,"end":518.211,"text":"我覺得這個應該考量在內政部設計補助要點的時候應該把這個考量進去地方政府展現更大的決心想要改善他的城市的人行道那我們相對給予的資源就應該多這個就是我認為除了我們中央要統籌解決比如說這個危險路口啦等等其他的之外我們覺得對地方政府這些地方首長我們也應該給予這個競爭的機制在裡面投入越多我們補助越多這個可不可以來設計"},{"start":519.531,"end":540.363,"text":"我想這個當然是我們的一個共識。那第二個其實這一次四年四百億,我們內政部240,然後中央部160。這個跟過去我們在處理這個人行通道的這些經費其實是增加很多。所以經費基本上不是問題。只要地方積極提案我想都可以全力來支持。"},{"start":541.343,"end":558.873,"text":"我覺得這一次是當然編列比以前多太多表示中央政府很重視但是我的意思要告訴部長說不要說500億啦我編5000億全台灣要做到人行道有感還是很少啦因為這個要走路的地方太多了嘛"},{"start":559.113,"end":575.027,"text":"委員我跟您報告你剛剛提到一個非常重要的優先順序我們現在訂的KPI跟過去會不一樣以前我們就是看做多少長度但是長度如果沒有連續的話它對人型的通行一樣是沒有辦法達到效果所以這一次我們會強調重視那個連續性的部分"},{"start":577.79,"end":578.05,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"}]}}}}