{"id":150495,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150495","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5c42d048b275b3ccca3d9204d572e03aff8ba9b0039caa7a6ed97af83b71729ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:16:08 - 11:30:50","影片長度":"00:14:42","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案(含報告事項45案及討論事項4案)。【如經復議則不予處理或審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-9"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":882,"end_time":"2024-03-27T11:30:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T11:16:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":661,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時16分）謝謝主席。是不是請我們薛部長？"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，過去的三十年，從1990年到2020年，全球的二氧化碳排放量增幅達到54.27%。從1990年到2020年，臺灣這部分的增幅是132.73%，是全球的2.45倍，除了碳排增加以外，2021年我國人均二氧化碳排放量高於全球平均值2.74倍，就是說，我們的人均排放量一年大概是11.69公噸，全球平均是4.26公噸。我要講這個，是因為你剛剛講的沒錯，我們在講國際競爭力，要環境保護，可是也要兼國際競爭力，跟我國主要貿易競爭對手韓國、新加坡、日本、中國、馬來西亞、印尼、印度等國相比，我們是排碳量最高的國家！我們在經濟上、貿易上的競爭對手，人均排放量都比我們低。今天我們在講說經濟要怎麼做才有競爭力？今天我要再提醒你，時不我予，時間沒有站在臺灣這一邊，因為今天我們在講碳費要怎麼訂、要訂多少，不是只關係到溫室氣體減量、氣候變遷的調適，也關乎我們需要脫碳的關鍵政策。更重要的是，正因為我們要討論企業的國際貿易經濟力，所以我們今天就是要站在世界貿易的經濟競爭上，才特別要講這件事情。大家講時程怎麼這麼慢？就是因為時不我予，歐盟的CBAM幾年要正式實施？"],["薛部長富盛：2026年元月。"],["林委員淑芬：2026年元月要實施碳邊境的調整機制？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：它是透過徵收邊境的碳價讓歐盟境內生產品被徵收的碳價相等，如果在邊境徵收的碳價很低，在歐盟境內很高，就要調適到合乎公平競爭，而且要防止碳洩漏。"],["薛部長富盛：沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：所以出口國已經實施了，就像臺灣，我們如果已經訂定了碳定價制度，業者到那裡就可以減免。最重要的一點就是，如果碳費跟歐盟比起來差價太多的話，我們就要去買憑證。"],["薛部長富盛：對，是。"],["林委員淑芬：買憑證的話，錢是付給誰？"],["薛部長富盛：當然就付給歐盟。"],["林委員淑芬：當然是付給歐盟，那我們為什麼要付給歐盟呢？為什麼不留在臺灣自己收呢？在臺灣就可以收了，我們就不用去付給歐盟。"],["薛部長富盛：我們認同林委員的看法。可是我跟林委員提醒一點，就是說，因為CBAM是以產品作為課徵碳費的對象，我們現在說的碳費對象，不必然有產品到歐盟去……"],["林委員淑芬：所以你現在徵收的對象可能是大戶，但是出口的產品可能是中小企業生產的。"],["薛部長富盛：是，所以經濟部已經積極協助中小企業，特別是受到CBAM影響的廠家去解決這個問題。"],["林委員淑芬：就像台電一樣，它沒有計算，因為它配出來了，那現在你的整個機制要怎麼處理？當然可以處理，但是我要跟你再講一下，我們的費率審議機制實在是太慢，這個進程太慢，主要還有一個，雖然歐盟是中小企業產品出口地可能是這樣子，但是在歐盟的市場貿易總額中，臺灣是第十四大的進口國，僅次於中國、美國、英國、韓國、日本、印度、越南、巴西等等。歐盟2022年的經濟成長是25.7%，但是來自我國的成長量是22.6%。從我國出口來看，在民國100年是11.7%，到民國112年已經上升到17.6%，占我國出口貿易的比例越來越高，對臺灣的衝擊很大。所以大家應該會問你說費率要怎麼處理，而你要怎麼因應這種機制？而且重點是我們是第十四大進口國，你知道嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那我要問你，在我們前面的國家，除了俄羅斯和印度沒有提出碳定價機制以外，所有的國家都已經制訂或正在執行碳稅或碳排放的交易機制了，由此可以看得到我們真的是拖拖又拉拉。"],["薛部長富盛：不會啦。林委員，這兩個是不同的一件事情，我們碳費再怎麼訂，基本上是針對大戶，我們的目標是2050年淨零排放，CBAM那個是另外一個機制。"],["林委員淑芬：你看，大戶上去，下游的當然就一定要計算進去啊。"],["薛部長富盛：CBAM那個是另外一個機制，特別是CBAM也是針對鋼鐵鋁等等那幾個產業，我們輸到那邊去的，大部分都……"],["林委員淑芬：那更好！我現在要告訴你，現在就是石化業和鋼鐵業這種高碳排的產業說，中國要取消ECFA了，他們的成本增加很多，世界競爭力降低了，一定要再爭取免徵碳稅，或者是延後。他們的呼籲是這樣子。"],["薛部長富盛：跟林委員報告，他們就是屬於所謂的高洩漏風險的族群。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！然後他們現在還爭取免徵或緩徵啊！"],["薛部長富盛：在定價之前他們當然會去喊價。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在跟你說，如果免徵或緩徵，反而只會造成他們企業的國際競爭力更低。"],["薛部長富盛：不會，我個人覺得……"],["林委員淑芬：那我跟你講，依據你們的臺灣氣候行動網絡的研究結果，你們自己已經算出來，前二十大碳排大戶碳費徵收，依你們自己評估，一噸300元的話，他們的成本上漲0.15%到2.5%。如果一噸是500元，價格上漲幅度大概是0.25%到4.2%。"],["薛部長富盛：是啊。所以事實上以鋼鐵業來講，如剛剛委員假設的那個情況，對於他們的競爭力影響，成本提高的比例並不會很高。"],["林委員淑芬：那他們現在喊價在喊什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：我不曉得。"],["林委員淑芬：我們現在要講的是，碳價太低，約束減碳的力道完全是零。"],["薛部長富盛：對啊。所以對於這一點，環團事實上很有意見。"],["林委員淑芬：我們現在又知道，除了預計300元，你們還可以定基本扣除額。你們還讓這些大企業有基本扣除額2.5萬公噸？也就是先把基本扣除額扣掉，然後你們還限個別工廠去收取？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有，跟林委員報告，我們已經有修正，那一塊已經有修正。"],["林委員淑芬：2.5萬噸要修正到多少？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有修正，就是說，可以享受2.5萬噸扣除額的對象已經做了修正。"],["林委員淑芬：怎麼修正法？"],["薛部長富盛：詳盡的公式將來可以給委員。就是說，假如享受高碳洩漏風險的降低比例，就不可以享受2.5萬噸的免稅額。跟委員報告，這一點我們都有考量到。"],["林委員淑芬：你來看一下，提供一下。但是你現在是對個別工廠收取，這對超大的財團非常有利，他們可以在這裡設一廠、二廠、三廠，然後又到林園設一廠，在某地又設一廠，個別工廠去申請。我們現在來看一下台塑集團，二十大碳排大戶中，台塑集團是第一名，他們四大集團的量是4,414百萬公噸；再來是中鋼中龍，加起來是2,860百萬公噸。你們現在以個別廠去收，你們第一階段去納管，有2.5萬噸的基本扣除額，雖然有一些是可以不准他們去使用，但是超過2.5萬公噸的共有550個廠區。如果以家數來看，是472家，但是你們是一個廠、一個廠去收，然後一個公司有好幾個廠，所以如果以2.5萬噸去扣的話，減徵後得到的quota可能會更多。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝林委員的提醒。這一點事實上我們有考慮進去，現在有考慮進去。"],["林委員淑芬：你要檢討一下。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：再來，歐盟在2023年3月的碳交易，一噸的碳大概也是100歐元；新加坡的碳稅2024年是25元新幣，約合新臺幣570元，他們預計2027年要提高到每噸45元新幣，大概是新臺幣1,059元；2030年預計增加到50到80元新幣，大概就是新臺幣1,176到1,881元，但是現在我們預計是300元。其實韓國當然也有，韓國跟我們競爭關係比較強，但是韓國透過碳交易的制度，他們的價格是起伏很大的。我們預計收10元美金，雖然CBAM初期免費配額率較高，但是如果跟歐盟碳價差距過大……你說CBAM是針對產品，事實上，也有從原料到產品都有做的大戶，鋼鐵業都是從大戶兼產品出口的企業，你這樣子的碳價會差距過大，等於是把錢送進去歐盟，不利於把資金留在國內來執行溫室氣體減量或氣候變遷調適。或者是說，對於相對弱勢的人所受到的衝擊，我們可以留一些錢，有一些運用的空間，來補助他們。所以在定價格上，大家第一個是批評時程太慢，第二個是批評價格不敢一次到位，可是我要再跟你講，時間不站在我們這一邊！時間不站在我們這一邊！你不要講說你現在課碳費的對象跟直接出口產品的廠商不一樣，很多是一樣的。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員淑芬：很多是一樣的，並不是如你所說的那樣子。鋼鐵業會是由小廠商去輸出嗎？不會啊。石化業會是由小廠商去輸出嗎？也不會啊。那你說加工零件，當然就是中小企業，你也是要再想中小企業這一塊要怎麼因應。CBAM 2026年就要上路了，那麼中小企業這一塊要怎麼因應？"],["薛部長富盛：直接因應的部分，事實上，針對中小企業這一塊，部會有分工，經濟部是主責這一塊，環境部還是回歸到以2050淨零排放來看，全臺灣的……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問的是碳費是經濟部負責的嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不是。碳費當然是環境部負責。"],["林委員淑芬：那未來他們要到CBAM裡面買憑證……"],["薛部長富盛：現在經濟部積極在輔導當中，環境部也從旁協助。"],["林委員淑芬：你說到經濟部，意思是說直接買憑證就好了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不是，他們是鼓勵，希望企業在國內能夠直接繳交……"],["林委員淑芬：機制是什麼？不是碳費嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不一定，也可以透過碳權等等的方式來處理，我想這個……"],["林委員淑芬：你說碳權，你現在連碳費都還沒搞定，你要做碳權交易？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，我們那個辦法都有訂出來。"],["林委員淑芬：訂出來了？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：所以中小企業就是透過交易的方法……"],["薛部長富盛：我們可以協助，可以來協助他們。"],["林委員淑芬：時程上來得及嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：可以。林委員也不用那麼悲觀，因為氣候變遷是大家共同面對的，真的要很嚴肅，所以企業界真的應該要去思考要怎麼減量。"],["林委員淑芬：我們不在乎你來不來得及，但是我們在乎經濟競爭力。"],["薛部長富盛：是，完全認同。"],["林委員淑芬：但是除了經濟競爭力以外，比起經濟競爭力，不要忘了歐盟定這個規範的真正用意是要做環保。我們為了環保，所以才會要求在經濟層次去定出這樣的規定。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：所以經濟競爭力是為了要符合環保，最終我們這個東西其實是要減碳，最終是要減碳啊！"],["薛部長富盛：對。林委員講到重點：減碳，真的是認同。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，要真的減碳，要做到讓業者真的減碳。"],["薛部長富盛：是、是，我們會來努力，好，謝謝林委員。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：好，謝謝林淑芬委員。","接下來請洪申翰委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳菁徽","劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","洪申翰","李彥秀","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","黃國昌","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00002","1132102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍\n結案49案（含報告事項45案及討論事項4案）（前接第一冊）","agenda_id":"1132102_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"150495","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150495","tool":"pyannote","id":"150495-pyannote"},"job_id":"XjA1lxXg5ikRdnLn","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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\"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 882.75, \"end\": 882.77, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:00,190\n賴慧卿議員\n\n2\n00:00:11,130 --> 00:00:21,092\n部長過去的30年代1990到2020年全球的二氧化碳的排放量增幅達到54.27%那你知道從1990到2020我國臺灣我們的增幅是132.73%是全球增幅的2.45倍\n\n3\n00:00:37,997 --> 00:00:46,620\n除了碳排增加以外2021年我國人均平均二氧化碳排放量高於全球2.74倍\n\n4\n00:00:52,562 --> 00:01:18,088\n就是說我們的人均排放量大概是一年是11.69公噸那全球平均是4.26公噸那我要講這個是因為你剛剛講的沒錯因為我們在講國際競爭力因為要環境保護可是也要國際競爭力那跟我國主要的貿易競爭對手像是韓國、新加坡、日本、中國、馬來西亞、印尼、印度等等\n\n5\n00:01:18,968 --> 00:01:29,344\n跟他們比較起來我們還是排碳量最高的國家我們的經濟上的貿易上的競爭對手人均排放量還比我們低\n\n6\n00:01:34,312 --> 00:01:39,014\n今天在講說經濟要怎麼有競爭力今天我要再提醒你時不我語時間沒有站在台灣這一邊因為今天我們在講碳費要怎麼定要定多少還不是只有關係到說溫室氣體要減量氣候變遷的調適所以我們要脫碳的關鍵政策\n\n7\n00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:24,935\n更重要的是正因為就是我們要討論到企業的國際貿易的經濟力所以我們今天就是要站在這個世界貿易的經濟競爭上我們才特別還要講這件事情時程大家講時程怎麼這麼慢因為時不我語歐盟的CBAN的這個幾年要實施\n\n8\n00:02:27,864 --> 00:02:36,669\n歐盟的事實上是從正式實施啦2026年元月嘛OK正式實施就是說2026年的元月要實施碳邊境的調整機制他是要透過徵收邊境的碳價跟歐盟境內的生產品被徵收的碳價相等\n\n9\n00:02:49,455 --> 00:03:12,211\n所以你在這裡你徵收的碳價很低歐盟的境內很高它要調適到要合乎公平競爭而且要防止碳洩漏所以進口國已經實施出口國就像台灣我們如果已經訂定了碳定價制度它可以到那裡去減免\n\n10\n00:03:14,272 --> 00:03:25,644\n但是呢,如果他最重要一點就是說,如果你的碳費跟歐盟比起來差價太多的話,我們就要去買這個憑證,要買憑證錢是付給誰?\n\n11\n00:03:31,974 --> 00:03:32,474\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n12\n00:03:54,690 --> 00:03:54,730\n議員主席\n\n13\n00:04:23,702 --> 00:04:46,456\n就像台電一樣它沒有計算因為它配出來了那現在呢你的整個機制要怎麼處理當然可以處理但是我要再跟你再講一下說我們的費率審議的機制實在是太慢太慢這個進程太慢主要還有一個你知道歐盟啊你雖然是這個中小企業產品出口可能是這樣子\n\n14\n00:04:48,016 --> 00:05:04,946\n但是歐盟市場貿易總額的台灣是它第14大的進口國僅次於中國、美國、英國、韓國、日本、印度、越南、巴西等等那歐盟像2022年它的經濟成長25.7%但是來自我國進口的成長量是22.6%那從我國出口來看\n\n15\n00:05:13,911 --> 00:05:39,489\n一百年是11.7%一百一十二年已經上升到17.6%占我國出口貿易的這個比例越來越高所以對台灣的衝擊很大所以大家一直在問你說這個費用要怎麼弄那你要怎麼因應這種機制而且重點是我們是第十四大進口國嘛你知道嗎\n\n16\n00:05:40,189 --> 00:05:40,289\n主席\n\n17\n00:06:03,138 --> 00:06:04,179\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n18\n00:06:27,517 --> 00:06:30,979\n二、處理或審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度\n\n19\n00:06:52,149 --> 00:06:52,169\n蘇貞昌議員\n\n20\n00:07:08,752 --> 00:07:23,222\n那我跟你講因為你們台灣氣候行動網絡的研究你們自己已經算如果一噸300元啦前20大的碳排大戶的碳費徵收它的成本上漲是你們自己這個評估的是0.15到2.5啦一噸如果500元啦那個幅度大概是0.25到4.2啦到4.2啦上漲的價格是啊所以事實上以鋼鐵來講\n\n21\n00:07:37,079 --> 00:08:00,398\n一段的我們現在剛剛委員假設的那個情況來講對於它的競爭力或成本提高的比例並不會很高那他們現在喊價在喊什麼我不曉得我們現在講說這個碳價太低對約束減碳的力道完全是零啊\n\n22\n00:08:01,295 --> 00:08:18,163\n對阿所以這一點環團事實上是很有意見阿那我們現在又知道你現在預計除了說預計300元你們還可以基本扣除額你們還讓這些大企業是基本扣除2.5萬公噸2.5萬公噸先基本扣除額扣掉\n\n23\n00:08:19,329 --> 00:08:44,909\n然後你們還向個別工廠去收取?我們已經有修正的那一塊已經有修正2.5萬噸要修正到多少?沒有沒有就是說可以享受2.5萬噸的他的對象已經做了修正怎麼修正法?詳細的公式將來可以給委員就是說他只要享受那個高碳洩漏風險的那個降低的比例他就不可以享受2.5萬噸的免稅額\n\n24\n00:08:49,092 --> 00:09:10,902\n這一點我們都有考量你來看一下提供一下但是你現在是個別工廠收取那超大財團非常有利我這裡一廠、二廠、三廠然後零元一廠某某一廠什麼廠你個別工廠去生產我現在看一下台塑集團20大碳排大物台塑集團是第一名他們四大集團四四一四百萬公噸\n\n25\n00:09:12,372 --> 00:09:17,955\n然後再來是中鋼中龍加起來是2860百萬公噸對,你們現在以個別場區收你們第一階段去納管除了有這個2.5萬噸的基本扣除了所以有一些是可以就不准拿去使用但是呢你這個超過2.5萬公噸的共有550個場區嘛\n\n26\n00:09:37,344 --> 00:09:58,042\n如果以加數來看是472家但是你們一個廠一個廠去然後一個公司它有好幾個廠所以它減增如果2.5萬噸去這個扣的話它減增的比例可能會得到的quota會更多謝謝林文的提醒這一點我們事實上有考慮進去\n\n27\n00:09:58,843 --> 00:10:00,686\n歐盟2023年3月碳交易100歐元\n\n28\n00:10:13,848 --> 00:10:20,011\n新加坡他們的碳稅2024年是25新台幣新幣就是新台幣大概570那他們預計2027要提高到每噸45元的新幣就是大概新台幣1059那2030年預計增加到50到80新幣大概就是新台幣1176到1881但是現在我們預計的300\n\n29\n00:10:41,983 --> 00:11:09,115\n其實韓國當然也有當然韓國跟我們競爭關係比較強但韓國他們透過這個碳交易的制度他們的價格是起伏很大的那我們預計收10塊錢美金雖然這個CBAN的它的這個初期免費配額率較高但是呢如果跟歐盟碳價差距過大你說這個CBAN是產品事實上你從這個\n\n30\n00:11:11,372 --> 00:11:31,040\n原料商到產品都有的大戶其實都有啊鋼鐵都是直接就是大戶就是兼產品出口國啊出口商啊你這樣子碳價差費差距過大等於是把這個錢送進去歐盟那不利於把資金留在國內執行溫室氣體減量或氣候變遷調適或者是說對於這個\n\n31\n00:11:39,925 --> 00:11:42,316\n相對弱勢的人他所受到的衝擊\n\n32\n00:11:44,861 --> 00:12:05,249\n有些錢有些這個運用的空間可以來我們也要來做一點這個補助所以你在這種價格上大家第一個時程慢第二個價格上不敢不敢一次到位可是我要再跟你講時間不站在我們這一邊時間不站在我們這一邊你不要講說你現在課碳費的對象跟直接出口的這個\n\n33\n00:12:13,712 --> 00:12:13,952\n主席\n\n34\n00:12:23,469 --> 00:12:37,299\n鋼鐵業它會是由小廠商去輸出嗎?不會啊石化業會是由小廠商去輸出嗎?也不會啊當然你說加工零件當然就是中小企業那你也是要再想中小企業這一塊要怎麼因應啊你對中小企業這一塊未來2026就要上路的CBAN那你要怎麼因應?\n\n35\n00:12:45,072 --> 00:12:47,734\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n36\n00:13:03,590 --> 00:13:06,051\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n37\n00:13:22,495 --> 00:13:24,377\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度\n\n38\n00:13:42,336 --> 00:13:42,356\n議員會議結束\n\n39\n00:13:59,864 --> 00:14:19,789\n不是啊我們不在乎說你來不來得及但是我們在乎經濟競爭力但是經濟競爭力以外比起經濟競爭力不要忘了歐盟的這個規範是來自於真正是要做環保啊所以我們為了環保所以才會要求在經濟層次去訂出這樣的規定所以經濟競爭力是為了要符合環保最終我們這個東西其實要減碳啊最終是要減碳啊\n\n40\n00:14:29,412 --> 00:14:42,770\n林委員講到重點的減碳對阿所以要真的減碳阿要做到讓業者是真的要減碳是是我們會來努力好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員接下來請洪森翰委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t190\t賴慧卿議員\n11130\t21092\t部長過去的30年代1990到2020年全球的二氧化碳的排放量增幅達到54.27%那你知道從1990到2020我國臺灣我們的增幅是132.73%是全球增幅的2.45倍\n37997\t46620\t除了碳排增加以外2021年我國人均平均二氧化碳排放量高於全球2.74倍\n52562\t78088\t就是說我們的人均排放量大概是一年是11.69公噸那全球平均是4.26公噸那我要講這個是因為你剛剛講的沒錯因為我們在講國際競爭力因為要環境保護可是也要國際競爭力那跟我國主要的貿易競爭對手像是韓國、新加坡、日本、中國、馬來西亞、印尼、印度等等\n78968\t89344\t跟他們比較起來我們還是排碳量最高的國家我們的經濟上的貿易上的競爭對手人均排放量還比我們低\n94312\t99014\t今天在講說經濟要怎麼有競爭力今天我要再提醒你時不我語時間沒有站在台灣這一邊因為今天我們在講碳費要怎麼定要定多少還不是只有關係到說溫室氣體要減量氣候變遷的調適所以我們要脫碳的關鍵政策\n120040\t144935\t更重要的是正因為就是我們要討論到企業的國際貿易的經濟力所以我們今天就是要站在這個世界貿易的經濟競爭上我們才特別還要講這件事情時程大家講時程怎麼這麼慢因為時不我語歐盟的CBAN的這個幾年要實施\n147864\t156669\t歐盟的事實上是從正式實施啦2026年元月嘛OK正式實施就是說2026年的元月要實施碳邊境的調整機制他是要透過徵收邊境的碳價跟歐盟境內的生產品被徵收的碳價相等\n169455\t192211\t所以你在這裡你徵收的碳價很低歐盟的境內很高它要調適到要合乎公平競爭而且要防止碳洩漏所以進口國已經實施出口國就像台灣我們如果已經訂定了碳定價制度它可以到那裡去減免\n194272\t205644\t但是呢,如果他最重要一點就是說,如果你的碳費跟歐盟比起來差價太多的話,我們就要去買這個憑證,要買憑證錢是付給誰?\n211974\t212474\t含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n234690\t234730\t議員主席\n263702\t286456\t就像台電一樣它沒有計算因為它配出來了那現在呢你的整個機制要怎麼處理當然可以處理但是我要再跟你再講一下說我們的費率審議的機制實在是太慢太慢這個進程太慢主要還有一個你知道歐盟啊你雖然是這個中小企業產品出口可能是這樣子\n288016\t304946\t但是歐盟市場貿易總額的台灣是它第14大的進口國僅次於中國、美國、英國、韓國、日本、印度、越南、巴西等等那歐盟像2022年它的經濟成長25.7%但是來自我國進口的成長量是22.6%那從我國出口來看\n313911\t339489\t一百年是11.7%一百一十二年已經上升到17.6%占我國出口貿易的這個比例越來越高所以對台灣的衝擊很大所以大家一直在問你說這個費用要怎麼弄那你要怎麼因應這種機制而且重點是我們是第十四大進口國嘛你知道嗎\n340189\t340289\t主席\n363138\t364179\t含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n387517\t390979\t二、處理或審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度\n412149\t412169\t蘇貞昌議員\n428752\t443222\t那我跟你講因為你們台灣氣候行動網絡的研究你們自己已經算如果一噸300元啦前20大的碳排大戶的碳費徵收它的成本上漲是你們自己這個評估的是0.15到2.5啦一噸如果500元啦那個幅度大概是0.25到4.2啦到4.2啦上漲的價格是啊所以事實上以鋼鐵來講\n457079\t480398\t一段的我們現在剛剛委員假設的那個情況來講對於它的競爭力或成本提高的比例並不會很高那他們現在喊價在喊什麼我不曉得我們現在講說這個碳價太低對約束減碳的力道完全是零啊\n481295\t498163\t對阿所以這一點環團事實上是很有意見阿那我們現在又知道你現在預計除了說預計300元你們還可以基本扣除額你們還讓這些大企業是基本扣除2.5萬公噸2.5萬公噸先基本扣除額扣掉\n499329\t524909\t然後你們還向個別工廠去收取?我們已經有修正的那一塊已經有修正2.5萬噸要修正到多少?沒有沒有就是說可以享受2.5萬噸的他的對象已經做了修正怎麼修正法?詳細的公式將來可以給委員就是說他只要享受那個高碳洩漏風險的那個降低的比例他就不可以享受2.5萬噸的免稅額\n529092\t550902\t這一點我們都有考量你來看一下提供一下但是你現在是個別工廠收取那超大財團非常有利我這裡一廠、二廠、三廠然後零元一廠某某一廠什麼廠你個別工廠去生產我現在看一下台塑集團20大碳排大物台塑集團是第一名他們四大集團四四一四百萬公噸\n552372\t557955\t然後再來是中鋼中龍加起來是2860百萬公噸對,你們現在以個別場區收你們第一階段去納管除了有這個2.5萬噸的基本扣除了所以有一些是可以就不准拿去使用但是呢你這個超過2.5萬公噸的共有550個場區嘛\n577344\t598042\t如果以加數來看是472家但是你們一個廠一個廠去然後一個公司它有好幾個廠所以它減增如果2.5萬噸去這個扣的話它減增的比例可能會得到的quota會更多謝謝林文的提醒這一點我們事實上有考慮進去\n598843\t600686\t歐盟2023年3月碳交易100歐元\n613848\t620011\t新加坡他們的碳稅2024年是25新台幣新幣就是新台幣大概570那他們預計2027要提高到每噸45元的新幣就是大概新台幣1059那2030年預計增加到50到80新幣大概就是新台幣1176到1881但是現在我們預計的300\n641983\t669115\t其實韓國當然也有當然韓國跟我們競爭關係比較強但韓國他們透過這個碳交易的制度他們的價格是起伏很大的那我們預計收10塊錢美金雖然這個CBAN的它的這個初期免費配額率較高但是呢如果跟歐盟碳價差距過大你說這個CBAN是產品事實上你從這個\n671372\t691040\t原料商到產品都有的大戶其實都有啊鋼鐵都是直接就是大戶就是兼產品出口國啊出口商啊你這樣子碳價差費差距過大等於是把這個錢送進去歐盟那不利於把資金留在國內執行溫室氣體減量或氣候變遷調適或者是說對於這個\n699925\t702316\t相對弱勢的人他所受到的衝擊\n704861\t725249\t有些錢有些這個運用的空間可以來我們也要來做一點這個補助所以你在這種價格上大家第一個時程慢第二個價格上不敢不敢一次到位可是我要再跟你講時間不站在我們這一邊時間不站在我們這一邊你不要講說你現在課碳費的對象跟直接出口的這個\n733712\t733952\t主席\n743469\t757299\t鋼鐵業它會是由小廠商去輸出嗎?不會啊石化業會是由小廠商去輸出嗎?也不會啊當然你說加工零件當然就是中小企業那你也是要再想中小企業這一塊要怎麼因應啊你對中小企業這一塊未來2026就要上路的CBAN那你要怎麼因應?\n765072\t767734\t含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n783590\t786051\t含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n802495\t804377\t二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度\n822336\t822356\t議員會議結束\n839864\t859789\t不是啊我們不在乎說你來不來得及但是我們在乎經濟競爭力但是經濟競爭力以外比起經濟競爭力不要忘了歐盟的這個規範是來自於真正是要做環保啊所以我們為了環保所以才會要求在經濟層次去訂出這樣的規定所以經濟競爭力是為了要符合環保最終我們這個東西其實要減碳啊最終是要減碳啊\n869412\t882770\t林委員講到重點的減碳對阿所以要真的減碳阿要做到讓業者是真的要減碳是是我們會來努力好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員接下來請洪森翰委員\n","txt":"賴慧卿議員\n部長過去的30年代1990到2020年全球的二氧化碳的排放量增幅達到54.27%那你知道從1990到2020我國臺灣我們的增幅是132.73%是全球增幅的2.45倍\n除了碳排增加以外2021年我國人均平均二氧化碳排放量高於全球2.74倍\n就是說我們的人均排放量大概是一年是11.69公噸那全球平均是4.26公噸那我要講這個是因為你剛剛講的沒錯因為我們在講國際競爭力因為要環境保護可是也要國際競爭力那跟我國主要的貿易競爭對手像是韓國、新加坡、日本、中國、馬來西亞、印尼、印度等等\n跟他們比較起來我們還是排碳量最高的國家我們的經濟上的貿易上的競爭對手人均排放量還比我們低\n今天在講說經濟要怎麼有競爭力今天我要再提醒你時不我語時間沒有站在台灣這一邊因為今天我們在講碳費要怎麼定要定多少還不是只有關係到說溫室氣體要減量氣候變遷的調適所以我們要脫碳的關鍵政策\n更重要的是正因為就是我們要討論到企業的國際貿易的經濟力所以我們今天就是要站在這個世界貿易的經濟競爭上我們才特別還要講這件事情時程大家講時程怎麼這麼慢因為時不我語歐盟的CBAN的這個幾年要實施\n歐盟的事實上是從正式實施啦2026年元月嘛OK正式實施就是說2026年的元月要實施碳邊境的調整機制他是要透過徵收邊境的碳價跟歐盟境內的生產品被徵收的碳價相等\n所以你在這裡你徵收的碳價很低歐盟的境內很高它要調適到要合乎公平競爭而且要防止碳洩漏所以進口國已經實施出口國就像台灣我們如果已經訂定了碳定價制度它可以到那裡去減免\n但是呢,如果他最重要一點就是說,如果你的碳費跟歐盟比起來差價太多的話,我們就要去買這個憑證,要買憑證錢是付給誰?\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n議員主席\n就像台電一樣它沒有計算因為它配出來了那現在呢你的整個機制要怎麼處理當然可以處理但是我要再跟你再講一下說我們的費率審議的機制實在是太慢太慢這個進程太慢主要還有一個你知道歐盟啊你雖然是這個中小企業產品出口可能是這樣子\n但是歐盟市場貿易總額的台灣是它第14大的進口國僅次於中國、美國、英國、韓國、日本、印度、越南、巴西等等那歐盟像2022年它的經濟成長25.7%但是來自我國進口的成長量是22.6%那從我國出口來看\n一百年是11.7%一百一十二年已經上升到17.6%占我國出口貿易的這個比例越來越高所以對台灣的衝擊很大所以大家一直在問你說這個費用要怎麼弄那你要怎麼因應這種機制而且重點是我們是第十四大進口國嘛你知道嗎\n主席\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n二、處理或審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度\n蘇貞昌議員\n那我跟你講因為你們台灣氣候行動網絡的研究你們自己已經算如果一噸300元啦前20大的碳排大戶的碳費徵收它的成本上漲是你們自己這個評估的是0.15到2.5啦一噸如果500元啦那個幅度大概是0.25到4.2啦到4.2啦上漲的價格是啊所以事實上以鋼鐵來講\n一段的我們現在剛剛委員假設的那個情況來講對於它的競爭力或成本提高的比例並不會很高那他們現在喊價在喊什麼我不曉得我們現在講說這個碳價太低對約束減碳的力道完全是零啊\n對阿所以這一點環團事實上是很有意見阿那我們現在又知道你現在預計除了說預計300元你們還可以基本扣除額你們還讓這些大企業是基本扣除2.5萬公噸2.5萬公噸先基本扣除額扣掉\n然後你們還向個別工廠去收取?我們已經有修正的那一塊已經有修正2.5萬噸要修正到多少?沒有沒有就是說可以享受2.5萬噸的他的對象已經做了修正怎麼修正法?詳細的公式將來可以給委員就是說他只要享受那個高碳洩漏風險的那個降低的比例他就不可以享受2.5萬噸的免稅額\n這一點我們都有考量你來看一下提供一下但是你現在是個別工廠收取那超大財團非常有利我這裡一廠、二廠、三廠然後零元一廠某某一廠什麼廠你個別工廠去生產我現在看一下台塑集團20大碳排大物台塑集團是第一名他們四大集團四四一四百萬公噸\n然後再來是中鋼中龍加起來是2860百萬公噸對,你們現在以個別場區收你們第一階段去納管除了有這個2.5萬噸的基本扣除了所以有一些是可以就不准拿去使用但是呢你這個超過2.5萬公噸的共有550個場區嘛\n如果以加數來看是472家但是你們一個廠一個廠去然後一個公司它有好幾個廠所以它減增如果2.5萬噸去這個扣的話它減增的比例可能會得到的quota會更多謝謝林文的提醒這一點我們事實上有考慮進去\n歐盟2023年3月碳交易100歐元\n新加坡他們的碳稅2024年是25新台幣新幣就是新台幣大概570那他們預計2027要提高到每噸45元的新幣就是大概新台幣1059那2030年預計增加到50到80新幣大概就是新台幣1176到1881但是現在我們預計的300\n其實韓國當然也有當然韓國跟我們競爭關係比較強但韓國他們透過這個碳交易的制度他們的價格是起伏很大的那我們預計收10塊錢美金雖然這個CBAN的它的這個初期免費配額率較高但是呢如果跟歐盟碳價差距過大你說這個CBAN是產品事實上你從這個\n原料商到產品都有的大戶其實都有啊鋼鐵都是直接就是大戶就是兼產品出口國啊出口商啊你這樣子碳價差費差距過大等於是把這個錢送進去歐盟那不利於把資金留在國內執行溫室氣體減量或氣候變遷調適或者是說對於這個\n相對弱勢的人他所受到的衝擊\n有些錢有些這個運用的空間可以來我們也要來做一點這個補助所以你在這種價格上大家第一個時程慢第二個價格上不敢不敢一次到位可是我要再跟你講時間不站在我們這一邊時間不站在我們這一邊你不要講說你現在課碳費的對象跟直接出口的這個\n主席\n鋼鐵業它會是由小廠商去輸出嗎?不會啊石化業會是由小廠商去輸出嗎?也不會啊當然你說加工零件當然就是中小企業那你也是要再想中小企業這一塊要怎麼因應啊你對中小企業這一塊未來2026就要上路的CBAN那你要怎麼因應?\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度\n議員會議結束\n不是啊我們不在乎說你來不來得及但是我們在乎經濟競爭力但是經濟競爭力以外比起經濟競爭力不要忘了歐盟的這個規範是來自於真正是要做環保啊所以我們為了環保所以才會要求在經濟層次去訂出這樣的規定所以經濟競爭力是為了要符合環保最終我們這個東西其實要減碳啊最終是要減碳啊\n林委員講到重點的減碳對阿所以要真的減碳阿要做到讓業者是真的要減碳是是我們會來努力好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員接下來請洪森翰委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:00.190\n賴慧卿議員\n\n00:11.130 --> 00:21.092\n部長過去的30年代1990到2020年全球的二氧化碳的排放量增幅達到54.27%那你知道從1990到2020我國臺灣我們的增幅是132.73%是全球增幅的2.45倍\n\n00:37.997 --> 00:46.620\n除了碳排增加以外2021年我國人均平均二氧化碳排放量高於全球2.74倍\n\n00:52.562 --> 01:18.088\n就是說我們的人均排放量大概是一年是11.69公噸那全球平均是4.26公噸那我要講這個是因為你剛剛講的沒錯因為我們在講國際競爭力因為要環境保護可是也要國際競爭力那跟我國主要的貿易競爭對手像是韓國、新加坡、日本、中國、馬來西亞、印尼、印度等等\n\n01:18.968 --> 01:29.344\n跟他們比較起來我們還是排碳量最高的國家我們的經濟上的貿易上的競爭對手人均排放量還比我們低\n\n01:34.312 --> 01:39.014\n今天在講說經濟要怎麼有競爭力今天我要再提醒你時不我語時間沒有站在台灣這一邊因為今天我們在講碳費要怎麼定要定多少還不是只有關係到說溫室氣體要減量氣候變遷的調適所以我們要脫碳的關鍵政策\n\n02:00.040 --> 02:24.935\n更重要的是正因為就是我們要討論到企業的國際貿易的經濟力所以我們今天就是要站在這個世界貿易的經濟競爭上我們才特別還要講這件事情時程大家講時程怎麼這麼慢因為時不我語歐盟的CBAN的這個幾年要實施\n\n02:27.864 --> 02:36.669\n歐盟的事實上是從正式實施啦2026年元月嘛OK正式實施就是說2026年的元月要實施碳邊境的調整機制他是要透過徵收邊境的碳價跟歐盟境內的生產品被徵收的碳價相等\n\n02:49.455 --> 03:12.211\n所以你在這裡你徵收的碳價很低歐盟的境內很高它要調適到要合乎公平競爭而且要防止碳洩漏所以進口國已經實施出口國就像台灣我們如果已經訂定了碳定價制度它可以到那裡去減免\n\n03:14.272 --> 03:25.644\n但是呢,如果他最重要一點就是說,如果你的碳費跟歐盟比起來差價太多的話,我們就要去買這個憑證,要買憑證錢是付給誰?\n\n03:31.974 --> 03:32.474\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n03:54.690 --> 03:54.730\n議員主席\n\n04:23.702 --> 04:46.456\n就像台電一樣它沒有計算因為它配出來了那現在呢你的整個機制要怎麼處理當然可以處理但是我要再跟你再講一下說我們的費率審議的機制實在是太慢太慢這個進程太慢主要還有一個你知道歐盟啊你雖然是這個中小企業產品出口可能是這樣子\n\n04:48.016 --> 05:04.946\n但是歐盟市場貿易總額的台灣是它第14大的進口國僅次於中國、美國、英國、韓國、日本、印度、越南、巴西等等那歐盟像2022年它的經濟成長25.7%但是來自我國進口的成長量是22.6%那從我國出口來看\n\n05:13.911 --> 05:39.489\n一百年是11.7%一百一十二年已經上升到17.6%占我國出口貿易的這個比例越來越高所以對台灣的衝擊很大所以大家一直在問你說這個費用要怎麼弄那你要怎麼因應這種機制而且重點是我們是第十四大進口國嘛你知道嗎\n\n05:40.189 --> 05:40.289\n主席\n\n06:03.138 --> 06:04.179\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n06:27.517 --> 06:30.979\n二、處理或審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度\n\n06:52.149 --> 06:52.169\n蘇貞昌議員\n\n07:08.752 --> 07:23.222\n那我跟你講因為你們台灣氣候行動網絡的研究你們自己已經算如果一噸300元啦前20大的碳排大戶的碳費徵收它的成本上漲是你們自己這個評估的是0.15到2.5啦一噸如果500元啦那個幅度大概是0.25到4.2啦到4.2啦上漲的價格是啊所以事實上以鋼鐵來講\n\n07:37.079 --> 08:00.398\n一段的我們現在剛剛委員假設的那個情況來講對於它的競爭力或成本提高的比例並不會很高那他們現在喊價在喊什麼我不曉得我們現在講說這個碳價太低對約束減碳的力道完全是零啊\n\n08:01.295 --> 08:18.163\n對阿所以這一點環團事實上是很有意見阿那我們現在又知道你現在預計除了說預計300元你們還可以基本扣除額你們還讓這些大企業是基本扣除2.5萬公噸2.5萬公噸先基本扣除額扣掉\n\n08:19.329 --> 08:44.909\n然後你們還向個別工廠去收取?我們已經有修正的那一塊已經有修正2.5萬噸要修正到多少?沒有沒有就是說可以享受2.5萬噸的他的對象已經做了修正怎麼修正法?詳細的公式將來可以給委員就是說他只要享受那個高碳洩漏風險的那個降低的比例他就不可以享受2.5萬噸的免稅額\n\n08:49.092 --> 09:10.902\n這一點我們都有考量你來看一下提供一下但是你現在是個別工廠收取那超大財團非常有利我這裡一廠、二廠、三廠然後零元一廠某某一廠什麼廠你個別工廠去生產我現在看一下台塑集團20大碳排大物台塑集團是第一名他們四大集團四四一四百萬公噸\n\n09:12.372 --> 09:17.955\n然後再來是中鋼中龍加起來是2860百萬公噸對,你們現在以個別場區收你們第一階段去納管除了有這個2.5萬噸的基本扣除了所以有一些是可以就不准拿去使用但是呢你這個超過2.5萬公噸的共有550個場區嘛\n\n09:37.344 --> 09:58.042\n如果以加數來看是472家但是你們一個廠一個廠去然後一個公司它有好幾個廠所以它減增如果2.5萬噸去這個扣的話它減增的比例可能會得到的quota會更多謝謝林文的提醒這一點我們事實上有考慮進去\n\n09:58.843 --> 10:00.686\n歐盟2023年3月碳交易100歐元\n\n10:13.848 --> 10:20.011\n新加坡他們的碳稅2024年是25新台幣新幣就是新台幣大概570那他們預計2027要提高到每噸45元的新幣就是大概新台幣1059那2030年預計增加到50到80新幣大概就是新台幣1176到1881但是現在我們預計的300\n\n10:41.983 --> 11:09.115\n其實韓國當然也有當然韓國跟我們競爭關係比較強但韓國他們透過這個碳交易的制度他們的價格是起伏很大的那我們預計收10塊錢美金雖然這個CBAN的它的這個初期免費配額率較高但是呢如果跟歐盟碳價差距過大你說這個CBAN是產品事實上你從這個\n\n11:11.372 --> 11:31.040\n原料商到產品都有的大戶其實都有啊鋼鐵都是直接就是大戶就是兼產品出口國啊出口商啊你這樣子碳價差費差距過大等於是把這個錢送進去歐盟那不利於把資金留在國內執行溫室氣體減量或氣候變遷調適或者是說對於這個\n\n11:39.925 --> 11:42.316\n相對弱勢的人他所受到的衝擊\n\n11:44.861 --> 12:05.249\n有些錢有些這個運用的空間可以來我們也要來做一點這個補助所以你在這種價格上大家第一個時程慢第二個價格上不敢不敢一次到位可是我要再跟你講時間不站在我們這一邊時間不站在我們這一邊你不要講說你現在課碳費的對象跟直接出口的這個\n\n12:13.712 --> 12:13.952\n主席\n\n12:23.469 --> 12:37.299\n鋼鐵業它會是由小廠商去輸出嗎?不會啊石化業會是由小廠商去輸出嗎?也不會啊當然你說加工零件當然就是中小企業那你也是要再想中小企業這一塊要怎麼因應啊你對中小企業這一塊未來2026就要上路的CBAN那你要怎麼因應?\n\n12:45.072 --> 12:47.734\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n13:03.590 --> 13:06.051\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n13:22.495 --> 13:24.377\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度\n\n13:42.336 --> 13:42.356\n議員會議結束\n\n13:59.864 --> 14:19.789\n不是啊我們不在乎說你來不來得及但是我們在乎經濟競爭力但是經濟競爭力以外比起經濟競爭力不要忘了歐盟的這個規範是來自於真正是要做環保啊所以我們為了環保所以才會要求在經濟層次去訂出這樣的規定所以經濟競爭力是為了要符合環保最終我們這個東西其實要減碳啊最終是要減碳啊\n\n14:29.412 --> 14:42.770\n林委員講到重點的減碳對阿所以要真的減碳阿要做到讓業者是真的要減碳是是我們會來努力好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員接下來請洪森翰委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.19,"text":"賴慧卿議員"},{"start":11.13,"end":21.092,"text":"部長過去的30年代1990到2020年全球的二氧化碳的排放量增幅達到54.27%那你知道從1990到2020我國臺灣我們的增幅是132.73%是全球增幅的2.45倍"},{"start":37.997,"end":46.62,"text":"除了碳排增加以外2021年我國人均平均二氧化碳排放量高於全球2.74倍"},{"start":52.562,"end":78.088,"text":"就是說我們的人均排放量大概是一年是11.69公噸那全球平均是4.26公噸那我要講這個是因為你剛剛講的沒錯因為我們在講國際競爭力因為要環境保護可是也要國際競爭力那跟我國主要的貿易競爭對手像是韓國、新加坡、日本、中國、馬來西亞、印尼、印度等等"},{"start":78.968,"end":89.344,"text":"跟他們比較起來我們還是排碳量最高的國家我們的經濟上的貿易上的競爭對手人均排放量還比我們低"},{"start":94.312,"end":99.014,"text":"今天在講說經濟要怎麼有競爭力今天我要再提醒你時不我語時間沒有站在台灣這一邊因為今天我們在講碳費要怎麼定要定多少還不是只有關係到說溫室氣體要減量氣候變遷的調適所以我們要脫碳的關鍵政策"},{"start":120.04,"end":144.935,"text":"更重要的是正因為就是我們要討論到企業的國際貿易的經濟力所以我們今天就是要站在這個世界貿易的經濟競爭上我們才特別還要講這件事情時程大家講時程怎麼這麼慢因為時不我語歐盟的CBAN的這個幾年要實施"},{"start":147.864,"end":156.669,"text":"歐盟的事實上是從正式實施啦2026年元月嘛OK正式實施就是說2026年的元月要實施碳邊境的調整機制他是要透過徵收邊境的碳價跟歐盟境內的生產品被徵收的碳價相等"},{"start":169.455,"end":192.211,"text":"所以你在這裡你徵收的碳價很低歐盟的境內很高它要調適到要合乎公平競爭而且要防止碳洩漏所以進口國已經實施出口國就像台灣我們如果已經訂定了碳定價制度它可以到那裡去減免"},{"start":194.272,"end":205.644,"text":"但是呢,如果他最重要一點就是說,如果你的碳費跟歐盟比起來差價太多的話,我們就要去買這個憑證,要買憑證錢是付給誰?"},{"start":211.974,"end":212.474,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":234.69,"end":234.73,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":263.702,"end":286.456,"text":"就像台電一樣它沒有計算因為它配出來了那現在呢你的整個機制要怎麼處理當然可以處理但是我要再跟你再講一下說我們的費率審議的機制實在是太慢太慢這個進程太慢主要還有一個你知道歐盟啊你雖然是這個中小企業產品出口可能是這樣子"},{"start":288.016,"end":304.946,"text":"但是歐盟市場貿易總額的台灣是它第14大的進口國僅次於中國、美國、英國、韓國、日本、印度、越南、巴西等等那歐盟像2022年它的經濟成長25.7%但是來自我國進口的成長量是22.6%那從我國出口來看"},{"start":313.911,"end":339.489,"text":"一百年是11.7%一百一十二年已經上升到17.6%占我國出口貿易的這個比例越來越高所以對台灣的衝擊很大所以大家一直在問你說這個費用要怎麼弄那你要怎麼因應這種機制而且重點是我們是第十四大進口國嘛你知道嗎"},{"start":340.189,"end":340.289,"text":"主席"},{"start":363.138,"end":364.179,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":387.517,"end":390.979,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":412.149,"end":412.169,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":428.752,"end":443.222,"text":"那我跟你講因為你們台灣氣候行動網絡的研究你們自己已經算如果一噸300元啦前20大的碳排大戶的碳費徵收它的成本上漲是你們自己這個評估的是0.15到2.5啦一噸如果500元啦那個幅度大概是0.25到4.2啦到4.2啦上漲的價格是啊所以事實上以鋼鐵來講"},{"start":457.079,"end":480.398,"text":"一段的我們現在剛剛委員假設的那個情況來講對於它的競爭力或成本提高的比例並不會很高那他們現在喊價在喊什麼我不曉得我們現在講說這個碳價太低對約束減碳的力道完全是零啊"},{"start":481.295,"end":498.163,"text":"對阿所以這一點環團事實上是很有意見阿那我們現在又知道你現在預計除了說預計300元你們還可以基本扣除額你們還讓這些大企業是基本扣除2.5萬公噸2.5萬公噸先基本扣除額扣掉"},{"start":499.329,"end":524.909,"text":"然後你們還向個別工廠去收取?我們已經有修正的那一塊已經有修正2.5萬噸要修正到多少?沒有沒有就是說可以享受2.5萬噸的他的對象已經做了修正怎麼修正法?詳細的公式將來可以給委員就是說他只要享受那個高碳洩漏風險的那個降低的比例他就不可以享受2.5萬噸的免稅額"},{"start":529.092,"end":550.902,"text":"這一點我們都有考量你來看一下提供一下但是你現在是個別工廠收取那超大財團非常有利我這裡一廠、二廠、三廠然後零元一廠某某一廠什麼廠你個別工廠去生產我現在看一下台塑集團20大碳排大物台塑集團是第一名他們四大集團四四一四百萬公噸"},{"start":552.372,"end":557.955,"text":"然後再來是中鋼中龍加起來是2860百萬公噸對,你們現在以個別場區收你們第一階段去納管除了有這個2.5萬噸的基本扣除了所以有一些是可以就不准拿去使用但是呢你這個超過2.5萬公噸的共有550個場區嘛"},{"start":577.344,"end":598.042,"text":"如果以加數來看是472家但是你們一個廠一個廠去然後一個公司它有好幾個廠所以它減增如果2.5萬噸去這個扣的話它減增的比例可能會得到的quota會更多謝謝林文的提醒這一點我們事實上有考慮進去"},{"start":598.843,"end":600.686,"text":"歐盟2023年3月碳交易100歐元"},{"start":613.848,"end":620.011,"text":"新加坡他們的碳稅2024年是25新台幣新幣就是新台幣大概570那他們預計2027要提高到每噸45元的新幣就是大概新台幣1059那2030年預計增加到50到80新幣大概就是新台幣1176到1881但是現在我們預計的300"},{"start":641.983,"end":669.115,"text":"其實韓國當然也有當然韓國跟我們競爭關係比較強但韓國他們透過這個碳交易的制度他們的價格是起伏很大的那我們預計收10塊錢美金雖然這個CBAN的它的這個初期免費配額率較高但是呢如果跟歐盟碳價差距過大你說這個CBAN是產品事實上你從這個"},{"start":671.372,"end":691.04,"text":"原料商到產品都有的大戶其實都有啊鋼鐵都是直接就是大戶就是兼產品出口國啊出口商啊你這樣子碳價差費差距過大等於是把這個錢送進去歐盟那不利於把資金留在國內執行溫室氣體減量或氣候變遷調適或者是說對於這個"},{"start":699.925,"end":702.316,"text":"相對弱勢的人他所受到的衝擊"},{"start":704.861,"end":725.249,"text":"有些錢有些這個運用的空間可以來我們也要來做一點這個補助所以你在這種價格上大家第一個時程慢第二個價格上不敢不敢一次到位可是我要再跟你講時間不站在我們這一邊時間不站在我們這一邊你不要講說你現在課碳費的對象跟直接出口的這個"},{"start":733.712,"end":733.952,"text":"主席"},{"start":743.469,"end":757.299,"text":"鋼鐵業它會是由小廠商去輸出嗎?不會啊石化業會是由小廠商去輸出嗎?也不會啊當然你說加工零件當然就是中小企業那你也是要再想中小企業這一塊要怎麼因應啊你對中小企業這一塊未來2026就要上路的CBAN那你要怎麼因應?"},{"start":765.072,"end":767.734,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":783.59,"end":786.051,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":802.495,"end":804.377,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":822.336,"end":822.356,"text":"議員會議結束"},{"start":839.864,"end":859.789,"text":"不是啊我們不在乎說你來不來得及但是我們在乎經濟競爭力但是經濟競爭力以外比起經濟競爭力不要忘了歐盟的這個規範是來自於真正是要做環保啊所以我們為了環保所以才會要求在經濟層次去訂出這樣的規定所以經濟競爭力是為了要符合環保最終我們這個東西其實要減碳啊最終是要減碳啊"},{"start":869.412,"end":882.77,"text":"林委員講到重點的減碳對阿所以要真的減碳阿要做到讓業者是真的要減碳是是我們會來努力好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員接下來請洪森翰委員"}]}}}}