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12:50:28","影片長度":"00:06:33","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案(含報告事項45案及討論事項4案)。【如經復議則不予處理或審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-9"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":393,"end_time":"2024-03-27T12:50:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T12:43:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1182,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時43分）謝謝主席，薛部長有請。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。"],["薛部長富盛：午安。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天針對碳定價機制有幾個問題要跟您就教。"],["薛部長富盛：是，不敢。"],["牛委員煦庭：國際上碳定價機制大概可以分成兩種：第一種叫做總量管制跟排放交易，針對其排放量設定上限；如果超過上限的受管制實體，就要到沒有受到上限或者未達上限的實體去購買所謂的排放配額，就是碳權的一種，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二種叫做稅費制度，直接針對價格做管制設定，也就是排放者付費，要排就要付錢。氣候變遷因應法第三十四至第三十六條其實是有授權總量管制和排放交易，但現在環境部是定調碳費先行，然後優先研擬相關配套措施。為什麼是採取碳費先行而不是採取總量管制？請您說明一下。"],["薛部長富盛：我想在總量管制那個部分，剛剛牛委員也都講得很清楚，總量管制搭配碳稅的交易，以歐盟為主這一塊。各位都知道，事實上歐盟在ETS已經實施很多年，所以很有經驗，它從2005年就開始在推了，將近二十年前。臺灣剛開始時，我們碳權交易所也是去年8月7日才成立，所以我們在所謂infrastructure方面事實上還沒有成熟，可是減碳又迫在眉睫，所以碳費是最快的一個方法。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以基本上是因為總量管制跟排放交易的門檻比較高、難度比較高？然後碳費比較單純？"],["薛部長富盛：是，當然，exactly。"],["牛委員煦庭：是這樣子的政策邏輯，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那我現在就順著這個問題往下問。稅費制度的優點當然就是容易，簡單來講，把這個費率定出來執行就好。但相對來講缺點就是，它沒有辦法像排放交易一樣去設定一些所謂的排放配額，比較不好算；缺點就是單一能源密集排放者的衝擊就非常大，我相信這也是你們昨天開會開半天，最後費率還是出不來的很重要的一個原因，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝牛委員非常體諒，就是這裡面還牽涉到，我們怎麼把總量管制以及所謂的免費配合概念注入到……"],["牛委員煦庭：去轉移到碳費機制的設算裡面嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，所以才會有自主減量加上優惠利率的概念。謝謝牛委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，所以我現在要講，就是第二十九條，你談了所謂的自主減量計畫，也就是他如果配合政府去做自主減量計畫，包含負排放技術、提升能源效率的各種製程、使用再生能源等等，在這個過程中只要可以減量，你就可以核准他所謂的優惠費率，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，這件事情在實務上遇到的困難是什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：實務上的困難……等我們把整個費率公告之後，搭配我們的收費辦法，就來執行了。昨天的委員會，他們也訂113至114年、114至117年，然後118年之後，事實上我們就會另外進入2030年的……把它正常化。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得產業界現在對於你這樣子的一個配套跟規劃，他們是很放心還是很焦慮？"],["薛部長富盛：我想大家當然都是焦慮，因為不確定的事情總是會焦慮，這是人之常情。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！所以這就是本席今天要講的，自主減量計畫也許對於中型或小型企業來講，易達性可能比較高，也比較划算。問題是我舉個例子，比如中鋼，你按照現在的碳費規定的話，中鋼一年要多出多少成本？我們應該是以數十億甚至百億以內來計，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：假如完全沒有自主減量去享受優惠利率，它一年就會……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，本席要提醒，你現在的自主減量計畫，大家可能的焦慮點在於，當然有這些技術，可是你要讓這些技術落地，你要去做，它也要時間嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：它也有投入的成本。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：然後它還要經過你的申請、審核跟核定嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是啊！對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這中間的不確定性跟時間的差異，相對來講，產業一定是將本求利去做計算，他去做計算的時候，發現他投入了自主減量計畫所花費的時間跟成本，然後也不確定到底可以優惠多少，大家當然就裹足不前，對不對？所以我覺得這件事情，某些層面立意良善，但有可能造成整個政策推行沒有辦法落地的一個困境，對於業者來說誘因是不夠大的。這一部分環境部打算如何解決？或者如何提高產業參加相關計畫的誘因？"],["薛部長富盛：跟牛委員報告，事實上環境部在考慮事情，說真的是希望能夠兼顧各個面向。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然。"],["薛部長富盛：我們在提自主減量，事實上是把它拉到2030年，所以業界有足夠時間因應。我們在3年前，當初的環保署就已經通知這些業者說未來會實施碳匯，他們是屬於排碳大戶就應該積極去準備。"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在講2030年之後，可能整個輪廓才會比較清楚，對不對？或者有一個遊戲規則，可是碳費徵收可能會在那之前嘛！這中間來講是不是就有衝突？"],["薛部長富盛：我們希望碳費是走向碳稅的一個過渡期，理想上當然是希望2030年之後，經過這5、6年試行期間，是不是到那時候已經成熟，那就切到碳稅……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為今天時間有限，我們做兩個小結論，第一點，這個事情茲事體大，如果要完善，本席建議加強溝通。理論上來講現在應該是看守期間，我今天還沒有很多時間去深究新政府對於這件事情的態度，你們對這個是不是完全支持，或者是他有新的想法？既然是在看守任內，應該加強溝通研討，不宜專擅，這是本席的第一個提醒。第二個，溝通的過程中，本席是建議合理平衡兩套機制，既然你們連簡單的東西搞不好都要到2030年相關配套才會更完整、才會有一個比較好的樣子，是不是乾脆連總量管制、排放交易這些配套措施一併研討，也許有好的結果、也許可以截長補短，讓一個本來很難落地的東西可以提早落地、順利兼顧。這一點在溝通和研討的過程之中，希望環境部察納雅言，好嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝牛委員的指教，我們來努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝部長，辛苦了！"],["薛部長富盛：不會。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員。","因為等一下還要處理討論事項，所以接下來質詢的委員可能時間要控制一下，謝謝。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳菁徽","劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","洪申翰","李彥秀","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","黃國昌","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00002","1132102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍\n結案49案（含報告事項45案及討論事項4案）（前接第一冊）","agenda_id":"1132102_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"150535","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150535","tool":"pyannote","id":"150535-pyannote"},"job_id":"FIvcK6cRFBdn2YKE","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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0.904}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 392.482, \"end\": 392.582, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 392.582, \"end\": 392.623, \"score\": 0.315}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 392.623, \"end\": 392.643, \"score\": 0.935}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,562 --> 00:00:06,445\n謝謝主席。薛部長有請。請薛部長。\n\n2\n00:00:11,902 --> 00:00:36,837\n部長午安今天針對碳定價機制有幾個問題要跟您就教國際上碳定價機制大概可以分成兩種第一種叫做總量管制跟排放交易也就是說針對它的排放量設定上限如果超過上限的受管制實體就要到沒有受到上限或未達上限的實體去購買所謂的排放配額就是碳權的一種那第二種叫做所謂的稅費制度\n\n3\n00:00:38,118 --> 00:01:03,104\n就直接針對價格做管制設定也就是說排放者付費要排就要付錢那氣候法34到36條其實是有授權總量管制跟排放交易但現在環境部是定調說碳費先行然後優先研擬相關的配套措施為什麼是採取碳費先行而不是採取總量管制請說明一下我想在總量管制那個部分剛剛劉委員也都講得很清楚總量管制\n\n4\n00:01:05,805 --> 00:01:22,695\n以歐盟為主這一塊那各位都知道事實上歐盟在ETS他已經實施很多年了所以他很有經驗他從2005年就開始在推了將近20年前那台灣你剛開始的時候我們碳錢交易所也是在去年8月7號才成立嘛\n\n5\n00:01:23,175 --> 00:01:38,139\n所以我們的這個所謂的infrastructure方面事實上是還沒有成熟那可是這個減碳又迫在眉睫所以碳費是最快的一個方法所以基本上是因為總管管制跟排放交易者門檻比較高難度比較高然後碳費比較單純\n\n6\n00:01:40,780 --> 00:01:56,258\n是這樣子的政策邏輯對不對?好那我現在就順著這個問題往下問喔稅費制度的優點它當然就是說容易嘛而簡單來講把這個費率定出來執行就好但是相對來講它的缺點就是說它沒有辦法像排放交易一樣去設定一些所謂的排放配額嘛它比較不好算\n\n7\n00:01:57,118 --> 00:02:14,203\n缺點就是單一能源密集排放者衝擊就非常大我相信這也是你們昨天開會開半天然後最後費率還是出不來很重要的一個原因對不對謝謝牛委員非常體諒就是說這禮拜牽涉到我們怎麼去把總量管制以及所謂的免費配額的概念\n\n8\n00:02:15,043 --> 00:02:41,986\n去轉移到碳費的這個機制的設算裡面嘛所以才會有自主減量加上優惠率率的概念嘛對,所以我現在就要講就是就是第29條你談了所謂的自主減量計畫嘛也就是說我如果配合政府去做自主減量計畫包含復排放技術包含提升能源效率的各種製程包含使用再生能源以及等等在這個過程中只要可以減量你就可以核准它所謂的優惠費率嘛對不對,好那這件事情的實務上遇到的困難是什麼?部長\n\n9\n00:02:42,711 --> 00:02:43,112\n議員會主席\n\n10\n00:02:48,670 --> 00:03:15,077\n公告之後那搭配我們的收賄辦法我們就來執行了那事實上昨天的委員會他們也訂113到114然後114到117然後118之後事實上我們就是會另外進入2030年的這個把它正常化你覺得產業界現在對於你這樣子的一個配套跟規劃他們是很放心還是很焦慮\n\n11\n00:03:16,522 --> 00:03:36,221\n呃,我想大家當然都是焦慮啦,因為不確定的事情總是會焦慮,這是人之常情。對嘛,所以這就是我本期今天要講的,就是自主減量計畫也許對於中型或是小型企業來講,它的意大利性可能比較高,然後也比較划算。可是問題是,比如說我舉個例子,比如說中鋼,你按照現在的碳費規定的話,中鋼一年要多多少成本?\n\n12\n00:03:38,513 --> 00:03:55,620\n我們應該是以數十億甚至是百億來計嘛完全沒有自主減量去享受優惠利率對他一年就會本期要提醒一下你現在自主減量計畫大家的可能的焦慮點在於就是說當然有這些技術可是你要讓這些技術落地你要去做\n\n13\n00:03:56,300 --> 00:03:58,302\n中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n14\n00:04:14,855 --> 00:04:38,466\n然後也不確定到底可以優惠多少然後大家當然就裹足不前啦對不對所以我覺得這件事情某些層面利益良善但有可能造成整個政策推行沒有辦法落地的一個困境啦對於業者來說誘因是不夠大的這部分環境部打算如何解決或者是如何提高產業參加相關計畫的誘因給牛文報告事實上環境部在考慮事情說真的是\n\n15\n00:04:39,662 --> 00:05:02,301\n希望能夠兼顧各個面相當然所以我們在提制度減量事實上是把它拉到2030年所以業界有足夠的時間去因應那我們在3年前事實上當初的環保署就已經通知這些業者說未來會實施碳匯他們是屬於排碳大戶\n\n16\n00:05:02,921 --> 00:05:04,722\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項\n\n17\n00:05:22,668 --> 00:05:37,423\n那我們理想上是當然是希望說2030年之後經過這這個5、6年的試行期間是不是到那時候已經成熟那就切到碳稅因為今天時間有限我們做兩個小結論\n\n18\n00:05:38,524 --> 00:06:00,180\n第一點這個事情知識體大因為要如果要完善本期是建議加強溝通尤其現在理論上來講應該看守期間我今天還沒有很多時間去深究說新的政府對這件事情的態度你們對這件事是完全支持或者是他有新的想法那既然是在看守的任內應該是加強溝通研討不宜專善這本期第一個提醒第二個溝通的過程中本期是建議就合理平衡兩套機制\n\n19\n00:06:01,241 --> 00:06:27,772\n既然你連簡單的東西你搞不好都要到2030你的相關的配套才會更完整然後才會有比較好的樣子那是不是乾脆連總量管制跟排放交易的這些配套措施你一併研討也許有好的結果也許可以結長補短讓一個本來很難落地的東西可以提早落地可以順利兼顧啦這一點在溝通跟研討的過程之中希望環境部查納雅言好嗎好謝謝牛委員的這個指教我們來努力好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝\n\n20\n00:06:31,515 --> 00:06:32,643\n謝謝牛委員。因為我們等一下\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4562\t6445\t謝謝主席。薛部長有請。請薛部長。\n11902\t36837\t部長午安今天針對碳定價機制有幾個問題要跟您就教國際上碳定價機制大概可以分成兩種第一種叫做總量管制跟排放交易也就是說針對它的排放量設定上限如果超過上限的受管制實體就要到沒有受到上限或未達上限的實體去購買所謂的排放配額就是碳權的一種那第二種叫做所謂的稅費制度\n38118\t63104\t就直接針對價格做管制設定也就是說排放者付費要排就要付錢那氣候法34到36條其實是有授權總量管制跟排放交易但現在環境部是定調說碳費先行然後優先研擬相關的配套措施為什麼是採取碳費先行而不是採取總量管制請說明一下我想在總量管制那個部分剛剛劉委員也都講得很清楚總量管制\n65805\t82695\t以歐盟為主這一塊那各位都知道事實上歐盟在ETS他已經實施很多年了所以他很有經驗他從2005年就開始在推了將近20年前那台灣你剛開始的時候我們碳錢交易所也是在去年8月7號才成立嘛\n83175\t98139\t所以我們的這個所謂的infrastructure方面事實上是還沒有成熟那可是這個減碳又迫在眉睫所以碳費是最快的一個方法所以基本上是因為總管管制跟排放交易者門檻比較高難度比較高然後碳費比較單純\n100780\t116258\t是這樣子的政策邏輯對不對?好那我現在就順著這個問題往下問喔稅費制度的優點它當然就是說容易嘛而簡單來講把這個費率定出來執行就好但是相對來講它的缺點就是說它沒有辦法像排放交易一樣去設定一些所謂的排放配額嘛它比較不好算\n117118\t134203\t缺點就是單一能源密集排放者衝擊就非常大我相信這也是你們昨天開會開半天然後最後費率還是出不來很重要的一個原因對不對謝謝牛委員非常體諒就是說這禮拜牽涉到我們怎麼去把總量管制以及所謂的免費配額的概念\n135043\t161986\t去轉移到碳費的這個機制的設算裡面嘛所以才會有自主減量加上優惠率率的概念嘛對,所以我現在就要講就是就是第29條你談了所謂的自主減量計畫嘛也就是說我如果配合政府去做自主減量計畫包含復排放技術包含提升能源效率的各種製程包含使用再生能源以及等等在這個過程中只要可以減量你就可以核准它所謂的優惠費率嘛對不對,好那這件事情的實務上遇到的困難是什麼?部長\n162711\t163112\t議員會主席\n168670\t195077\t公告之後那搭配我們的收賄辦法我們就來執行了那事實上昨天的委員會他們也訂113到114然後114到117然後118之後事實上我們就是會另外進入2030年的這個把它正常化你覺得產業界現在對於你這樣子的一個配套跟規劃他們是很放心還是很焦慮\n196522\t216221\t呃,我想大家當然都是焦慮啦,因為不確定的事情總是會焦慮,這是人之常情。對嘛,所以這就是我本期今天要講的,就是自主減量計畫也許對於中型或是小型企業來講,它的意大利性可能比較高,然後也比較划算。可是問題是,比如說我舉個例子,比如說中鋼,你按照現在的碳費規定的話,中鋼一年要多多少成本?\n218513\t235620\t我們應該是以數十億甚至是百億來計嘛完全沒有自主減量去享受優惠利率對他一年就會本期要提醒一下你現在自主減量計畫大家的可能的焦慮點在於就是說當然有這些技術可是你要讓這些技術落地你要去做\n236300\t238302\t中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n254855\t278466\t然後也不確定到底可以優惠多少然後大家當然就裹足不前啦對不對所以我覺得這件事情某些層面利益良善但有可能造成整個政策推行沒有辦法落地的一個困境啦對於業者來說誘因是不夠大的這部分環境部打算如何解決或者是如何提高產業參加相關計畫的誘因給牛文報告事實上環境部在考慮事情說真的是\n279662\t302301\t希望能夠兼顧各個面相當然所以我們在提制度減量事實上是把它拉到2030年所以業界有足夠的時間去因應那我們在3年前事實上當初的環保署就已經通知這些業者說未來會實施碳匯他們是屬於排碳大戶\n302921\t304722\t含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項\n322668\t337423\t那我們理想上是當然是希望說2030年之後經過這這個5、6年的試行期間是不是到那時候已經成熟那就切到碳稅因為今天時間有限我們做兩個小結論\n338524\t360180\t第一點這個事情知識體大因為要如果要完善本期是建議加強溝通尤其現在理論上來講應該看守期間我今天還沒有很多時間去深究說新的政府對這件事情的態度你們對這件事是完全支持或者是他有新的想法那既然是在看守的任內應該是加強溝通研討不宜專善這本期第一個提醒第二個溝通的過程中本期是建議就合理平衡兩套機制\n361241\t387772\t既然你連簡單的東西你搞不好都要到2030你的相關的配套才會更完整然後才會有比較好的樣子那是不是乾脆連總量管制跟排放交易的這些配套措施你一併研討也許有好的結果也許可以結長補短讓一個本來很難落地的東西可以提早落地可以順利兼顧啦這一點在溝通跟研討的過程之中希望環境部查納雅言好嗎好謝謝牛委員的這個指教我們來努力好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝\n391515\t392643\t謝謝牛委員。因為我們等一下\n","txt":"謝謝主席。薛部長有請。請薛部長。\n部長午安今天針對碳定價機制有幾個問題要跟您就教國際上碳定價機制大概可以分成兩種第一種叫做總量管制跟排放交易也就是說針對它的排放量設定上限如果超過上限的受管制實體就要到沒有受到上限或未達上限的實體去購買所謂的排放配額就是碳權的一種那第二種叫做所謂的稅費制度\n就直接針對價格做管制設定也就是說排放者付費要排就要付錢那氣候法34到36條其實是有授權總量管制跟排放交易但現在環境部是定調說碳費先行然後優先研擬相關的配套措施為什麼是採取碳費先行而不是採取總量管制請說明一下我想在總量管制那個部分剛剛劉委員也都講得很清楚總量管制\n以歐盟為主這一塊那各位都知道事實上歐盟在ETS他已經實施很多年了所以他很有經驗他從2005年就開始在推了將近20年前那台灣你剛開始的時候我們碳錢交易所也是在去年8月7號才成立嘛\n所以我們的這個所謂的infrastructure方面事實上是還沒有成熟那可是這個減碳又迫在眉睫所以碳費是最快的一個方法所以基本上是因為總管管制跟排放交易者門檻比較高難度比較高然後碳費比較單純\n是這樣子的政策邏輯對不對?好那我現在就順著這個問題往下問喔稅費制度的優點它當然就是說容易嘛而簡單來講把這個費率定出來執行就好但是相對來講它的缺點就是說它沒有辦法像排放交易一樣去設定一些所謂的排放配額嘛它比較不好算\n缺點就是單一能源密集排放者衝擊就非常大我相信這也是你們昨天開會開半天然後最後費率還是出不來很重要的一個原因對不對謝謝牛委員非常體諒就是說這禮拜牽涉到我們怎麼去把總量管制以及所謂的免費配額的概念\n去轉移到碳費的這個機制的設算裡面嘛所以才會有自主減量加上優惠率率的概念嘛對,所以我現在就要講就是就是第29條你談了所謂的自主減量計畫嘛也就是說我如果配合政府去做自主減量計畫包含復排放技術包含提升能源效率的各種製程包含使用再生能源以及等等在這個過程中只要可以減量你就可以核准它所謂的優惠費率嘛對不對,好那這件事情的實務上遇到的困難是什麼?部長\n議員會主席\n公告之後那搭配我們的收賄辦法我們就來執行了那事實上昨天的委員會他們也訂113到114然後114到117然後118之後事實上我們就是會另外進入2030年的這個把它正常化你覺得產業界現在對於你這樣子的一個配套跟規劃他們是很放心還是很焦慮\n呃,我想大家當然都是焦慮啦,因為不確定的事情總是會焦慮,這是人之常情。對嘛,所以這就是我本期今天要講的,就是自主減量計畫也許對於中型或是小型企業來講,它的意大利性可能比較高,然後也比較划算。可是問題是,比如說我舉個例子,比如說中鋼,你按照現在的碳費規定的話,中鋼一年要多多少成本?\n我們應該是以數十億甚至是百億來計嘛完全沒有自主減量去享受優惠利率對他一年就會本期要提醒一下你現在自主減量計畫大家的可能的焦慮點在於就是說當然有這些技術可是你要讓這些技術落地你要去做\n中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n然後也不確定到底可以優惠多少然後大家當然就裹足不前啦對不對所以我覺得這件事情某些層面利益良善但有可能造成整個政策推行沒有辦法落地的一個困境啦對於業者來說誘因是不夠大的這部分環境部打算如何解決或者是如何提高產業參加相關計畫的誘因給牛文報告事實上環境部在考慮事情說真的是\n希望能夠兼顧各個面相當然所以我們在提制度減量事實上是把它拉到2030年所以業界有足夠的時間去因應那我們在3年前事實上當初的環保署就已經通知這些業者說未來會實施碳匯他們是屬於排碳大戶\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項\n那我們理想上是當然是希望說2030年之後經過這這個5、6年的試行期間是不是到那時候已經成熟那就切到碳稅因為今天時間有限我們做兩個小結論\n第一點這個事情知識體大因為要如果要完善本期是建議加強溝通尤其現在理論上來講應該看守期間我今天還沒有很多時間去深究說新的政府對這件事情的態度你們對這件事是完全支持或者是他有新的想法那既然是在看守的任內應該是加強溝通研討不宜專善這本期第一個提醒第二個溝通的過程中本期是建議就合理平衡兩套機制\n既然你連簡單的東西你搞不好都要到2030你的相關的配套才會更完整然後才會有比較好的樣子那是不是乾脆連總量管制跟排放交易的這些配套措施你一併研討也許有好的結果也許可以結長補短讓一個本來很難落地的東西可以提早落地可以順利兼顧啦這一點在溝通跟研討的過程之中希望環境部查納雅言好嗎好謝謝牛委員的這個指教我們來努力好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝\n謝謝牛委員。因為我們等一下\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.562 --> 00:06.445\n謝謝主席。薛部長有請。請薛部長。\n\n00:11.902 --> 00:36.837\n部長午安今天針對碳定價機制有幾個問題要跟您就教國際上碳定價機制大概可以分成兩種第一種叫做總量管制跟排放交易也就是說針對它的排放量設定上限如果超過上限的受管制實體就要到沒有受到上限或未達上限的實體去購買所謂的排放配額就是碳權的一種那第二種叫做所謂的稅費制度\n\n00:38.118 --> 01:03.104\n就直接針對價格做管制設定也就是說排放者付費要排就要付錢那氣候法34到36條其實是有授權總量管制跟排放交易但現在環境部是定調說碳費先行然後優先研擬相關的配套措施為什麼是採取碳費先行而不是採取總量管制請說明一下我想在總量管制那個部分剛剛劉委員也都講得很清楚總量管制\n\n01:05.805 --> 01:22.695\n以歐盟為主這一塊那各位都知道事實上歐盟在ETS他已經實施很多年了所以他很有經驗他從2005年就開始在推了將近20年前那台灣你剛開始的時候我們碳錢交易所也是在去年8月7號才成立嘛\n\n01:23.175 --> 01:38.139\n所以我們的這個所謂的infrastructure方面事實上是還沒有成熟那可是這個減碳又迫在眉睫所以碳費是最快的一個方法所以基本上是因為總管管制跟排放交易者門檻比較高難度比較高然後碳費比較單純\n\n01:40.780 --> 01:56.258\n是這樣子的政策邏輯對不對?好那我現在就順著這個問題往下問喔稅費制度的優點它當然就是說容易嘛而簡單來講把這個費率定出來執行就好但是相對來講它的缺點就是說它沒有辦法像排放交易一樣去設定一些所謂的排放配額嘛它比較不好算\n\n01:57.118 --> 02:14.203\n缺點就是單一能源密集排放者衝擊就非常大我相信這也是你們昨天開會開半天然後最後費率還是出不來很重要的一個原因對不對謝謝牛委員非常體諒就是說這禮拜牽涉到我們怎麼去把總量管制以及所謂的免費配額的概念\n\n02:15.043 --> 02:41.986\n去轉移到碳費的這個機制的設算裡面嘛所以才會有自主減量加上優惠率率的概念嘛對,所以我現在就要講就是就是第29條你談了所謂的自主減量計畫嘛也就是說我如果配合政府去做自主減量計畫包含復排放技術包含提升能源效率的各種製程包含使用再生能源以及等等在這個過程中只要可以減量你就可以核准它所謂的優惠費率嘛對不對,好那這件事情的實務上遇到的困難是什麼?部長\n\n02:42.711 --> 02:43.112\n議員會主席\n\n02:48.670 --> 03:15.077\n公告之後那搭配我們的收賄辦法我們就來執行了那事實上昨天的委員會他們也訂113到114然後114到117然後118之後事實上我們就是會另外進入2030年的這個把它正常化你覺得產業界現在對於你這樣子的一個配套跟規劃他們是很放心還是很焦慮\n\n03:16.522 --> 03:36.221\n呃,我想大家當然都是焦慮啦,因為不確定的事情總是會焦慮,這是人之常情。對嘛,所以這就是我本期今天要講的,就是自主減量計畫也許對於中型或是小型企業來講,它的意大利性可能比較高,然後也比較划算。可是問題是,比如說我舉個例子,比如說中鋼,你按照現在的碳費規定的話,中鋼一年要多多少成本?\n\n03:38.513 --> 03:55.620\n我們應該是以數十億甚至是百億來計嘛完全沒有自主減量去享受優惠利率對他一年就會本期要提醒一下你現在自主減量計畫大家的可能的焦慮點在於就是說當然有這些技術可是你要讓這些技術落地你要去做\n\n03:56.300 --> 03:58.302\n中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論\n\n04:14.855 --> 04:38.466\n然後也不確定到底可以優惠多少然後大家當然就裹足不前啦對不對所以我覺得這件事情某些層面利益良善但有可能造成整個政策推行沒有辦法落地的一個困境啦對於業者來說誘因是不夠大的這部分環境部打算如何解決或者是如何提高產業參加相關計畫的誘因給牛文報告事實上環境部在考慮事情說真的是\n\n04:39.662 --> 05:02.301\n希望能夠兼顧各個面相當然所以我們在提制度減量事實上是把它拉到2030年所以業界有足夠的時間去因應那我們在3年前事實上當初的環保署就已經通知這些業者說未來會實施碳匯他們是屬於排碳大戶\n\n05:02.921 --> 05:04.722\n含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項\n\n05:22.668 --> 05:37.423\n那我們理想上是當然是希望說2030年之後經過這這個5、6年的試行期間是不是到那時候已經成熟那就切到碳稅因為今天時間有限我們做兩個小結論\n\n05:38.524 --> 06:00.180\n第一點這個事情知識體大因為要如果要完善本期是建議加強溝通尤其現在理論上來講應該看守期間我今天還沒有很多時間去深究說新的政府對這件事情的態度你們對這件事是完全支持或者是他有新的想法那既然是在看守的任內應該是加強溝通研討不宜專善這本期第一個提醒第二個溝通的過程中本期是建議就合理平衡兩套機制\n\n06:01.241 --> 06:27.772\n既然你連簡單的東西你搞不好都要到2030你的相關的配套才會更完整然後才會有比較好的樣子那是不是乾脆連總量管制跟排放交易的這些配套措施你一併研討也許有好的結果也許可以結長補短讓一個本來很難落地的東西可以提早落地可以順利兼顧啦這一點在溝通跟研討的過程之中希望環境部查納雅言好嗎好謝謝牛委員的這個指教我們來努力好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝\n\n06:31.515 --> 06:32.643\n謝謝牛委員。因為我們等一下\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.562,"end":6.445,"text":"謝謝主席。薛部長有請。請薛部長。"},{"start":11.902,"end":36.837,"text":"部長午安今天針對碳定價機制有幾個問題要跟您就教國際上碳定價機制大概可以分成兩種第一種叫做總量管制跟排放交易也就是說針對它的排放量設定上限如果超過上限的受管制實體就要到沒有受到上限或未達上限的實體去購買所謂的排放配額就是碳權的一種那第二種叫做所謂的稅費制度"},{"start":38.118,"end":63.104,"text":"就直接針對價格做管制設定也就是說排放者付費要排就要付錢那氣候法34到36條其實是有授權總量管制跟排放交易但現在環境部是定調說碳費先行然後優先研擬相關的配套措施為什麼是採取碳費先行而不是採取總量管制請說明一下我想在總量管制那個部分剛剛劉委員也都講得很清楚總量管制"},{"start":65.805,"end":82.695,"text":"以歐盟為主這一塊那各位都知道事實上歐盟在ETS他已經實施很多年了所以他很有經驗他從2005年就開始在推了將近20年前那台灣你剛開始的時候我們碳錢交易所也是在去年8月7號才成立嘛"},{"start":83.175,"end":98.139,"text":"所以我們的這個所謂的infrastructure方面事實上是還沒有成熟那可是這個減碳又迫在眉睫所以碳費是最快的一個方法所以基本上是因為總管管制跟排放交易者門檻比較高難度比較高然後碳費比較單純"},{"start":100.78,"end":116.258,"text":"是這樣子的政策邏輯對不對?好那我現在就順著這個問題往下問喔稅費制度的優點它當然就是說容易嘛而簡單來講把這個費率定出來執行就好但是相對來講它的缺點就是說它沒有辦法像排放交易一樣去設定一些所謂的排放配額嘛它比較不好算"},{"start":117.118,"end":134.203,"text":"缺點就是單一能源密集排放者衝擊就非常大我相信這也是你們昨天開會開半天然後最後費率還是出不來很重要的一個原因對不對謝謝牛委員非常體諒就是說這禮拜牽涉到我們怎麼去把總量管制以及所謂的免費配額的概念"},{"start":135.043,"end":161.986,"text":"去轉移到碳費的這個機制的設算裡面嘛所以才會有自主減量加上優惠率率的概念嘛對,所以我現在就要講就是就是第29條你談了所謂的自主減量計畫嘛也就是說我如果配合政府去做自主減量計畫包含復排放技術包含提升能源效率的各種製程包含使用再生能源以及等等在這個過程中只要可以減量你就可以核准它所謂的優惠費率嘛對不對,好那這件事情的實務上遇到的困難是什麼?部長"},{"start":162.711,"end":163.112,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":168.67,"end":195.077,"text":"公告之後那搭配我們的收賄辦法我們就來執行了那事實上昨天的委員會他們也訂113到114然後114到117然後118之後事實上我們就是會另外進入2030年的這個把它正常化你覺得產業界現在對於你這樣子的一個配套跟規劃他們是很放心還是很焦慮"},{"start":196.522,"end":216.221,"text":"呃,我想大家當然都是焦慮啦,因為不確定的事情總是會焦慮,這是人之常情。對嘛,所以這就是我本期今天要講的,就是自主減量計畫也許對於中型或是小型企業來講,它的意大利性可能比較高,然後也比較划算。可是問題是,比如說我舉個例子,比如說中鋼,你按照現在的碳費規定的話,中鋼一年要多多少成本?"},{"start":218.513,"end":235.62,"text":"我們應該是以數十億甚至是百億來計嘛完全沒有自主減量去享受優惠利率對他一年就會本期要提醒一下你現在自主減量計畫大家的可能的焦慮點在於就是說當然有這些技術可是你要讓這些技術落地你要去做"},{"start":236.3,"end":238.302,"text":"中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":254.855,"end":278.466,"text":"然後也不確定到底可以優惠多少然後大家當然就裹足不前啦對不對所以我覺得這件事情某些層面利益良善但有可能造成整個政策推行沒有辦法落地的一個困境啦對於業者來說誘因是不夠大的這部分環境部打算如何解決或者是如何提高產業參加相關計畫的誘因給牛文報告事實上環境部在考慮事情說真的是"},{"start":279.662,"end":302.301,"text":"希望能夠兼顧各個面相當然所以我們在提制度減量事實上是把它拉到2030年所以業界有足夠的時間去因應那我們在3年前事實上當初的環保署就已經通知這些業者說未來會實施碳匯他們是屬於排碳大戶"},{"start":302.921,"end":304.722,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項"},{"start":322.668,"end":337.423,"text":"那我們理想上是當然是希望說2030年之後經過這這個5、6年的試行期間是不是到那時候已經成熟那就切到碳稅因為今天時間有限我們做兩個小結論"},{"start":338.524,"end":360.18,"text":"第一點這個事情知識體大因為要如果要完善本期是建議加強溝通尤其現在理論上來講應該看守期間我今天還沒有很多時間去深究說新的政府對這件事情的態度你們對這件事是完全支持或者是他有新的想法那既然是在看守的任內應該是加強溝通研討不宜專善這本期第一個提醒第二個溝通的過程中本期是建議就合理平衡兩套機制"},{"start":361.241,"end":387.772,"text":"既然你連簡單的東西你搞不好都要到2030你的相關的配套才會更完整然後才會有比較好的樣子那是不是乾脆連總量管制跟排放交易的這些配套措施你一併研討也許有好的結果也許可以結長補短讓一個本來很難落地的東西可以提早落地可以順利兼顧啦這一點在溝通跟研討的過程之中希望環境部查納雅言好嗎好謝謝牛委員的這個指教我們來努力好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":391.515,"end":392.643,"text":"謝謝牛委員。因為我們等一下"}]}}}}