{"id":150542,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150542","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d50c132b4c89b5e9d152100ef94a0b7c33f8ba9b0039caa7a647208c9550792b9e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"13:07:58 - 13:13:27","影片長度":"00:05:29","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請文化部部長史哲列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算(公務預算)解凍案8案。(如未接獲議事處來函，則不予處理或審查)【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-5"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":329,"end_time":"2024-03-27T13:13:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T13:07:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1247,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（13時8分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["高金委員素梅：部長不要忘記了，你們的兒少節目有一個吉娃斯愛科學在國際界得獎了，你顯然不太瞭解。"],["史部長哲：謝謝、謝謝，我太久沒看兒少節目了。"],["高金委員素梅：好久沒有見到您了，我在這邊只有4分鐘的時間，我想跟你討論在2月底的時候，您親自親力親為擔任藝術總監，推出了耗資八千多萬的歌仔大戲叫做「1624」隆重地開演了。這齣舞台劇之大、明星之多、動員之眾、預算之高可以說是前所未有的，而根據您所說，這齣戲的目的是希望帶領所有的觀眾一起回到當年臺灣跟世界相遇的海上，希望用自己的聲音說自己的故事，期盼讓全臺灣人重新認識臺灣，然後認知臺灣早在17世紀的時候已經成為世界史的場所，籌備長達一年，為的是留給臺灣一個見證400年歷史的機會。","部長，投入空前的經費打造這齣戲，我花了很多時間，也很認真地看完了這齣戲，戲劇專業的部分，我沒有意見，但是對於內容我大大地有意見。我看完了這齣所謂的海洋史觀的作品時，我不禁想要問，「1624」這部戲要帶領觀眾去相遇、去看到的到底是誰的歷史？如果是要談臺灣歷史，為什麼一定要從1624算起，為什麼不是從二千多年前的十三行文化還有蔦松文化談起？那不是更悠久、更深刻嗎？還是有些人刻意地安排，只是為了新世界來到我家門口的那一天？也只是為了一個400年的臺獨政治執念？而我發現透過海洋史觀，你們所看到的世界和我看到的歷史是那麼樣的截然不同。","我們看一下，同樣是1624年，你們看到的是17世紀大航海時代的自由貿易，可是我看到的卻是世界的原住民族被殖民、被掠奪，甚至被滅絕；你們在戲裡面歌頌了黃金夢鄉的五大洋，但是我看到的卻是大西洋海底那200萬具奴隸屍骨；你們看到的是奇貨可居的鹿皮，而我看到的是西拉雅族長老在出席荷蘭議會的時候，因為繳不出鹿皮的抵稅金，就被當眾一頓藤條毒打；你們看到的是原住民號稱400年前的國際談判桌上，他是一位臺灣的主人，但我看到的卻是被荷蘭東印度公司逮捕囚禁的理加長老成為談判桌上的菜單。同樣的歷史、同樣的貿易、同樣的人物、同樣的鹿皮，為什麼我們兩個之間看到的差距會那麼大？我認為我們最大的不同是因為我們看歷史的觀點，你們津津樂道的海洋史觀其實就是歐洲殖民者海外掠奪的強盜史觀，而我不斷提出的歷史質問就是被殖民還有被滅絕的世界原住民族的史觀，站在不同的位置來看歷史，當然我們的結果會是不一樣。然後我在「1624」裡面看不到文化部對於殖民歷史的反省，這是對於蔡英文總統對原住民族歷史轉型正義最大的挑戰與破壞。","最後，我要跟大家分享，也跟部長分享一幅畫，這個是陳列在墨西哥市國家宮裡的壁畫，它的名稱叫做「科爾特斯的到來」，也是著名畫家迪亞哥．里維拉的作品，科爾特斯就是打敗阿茲特克帝國的西班牙殖民者，也就是大航海時代所謂國際貿易的典型代表，而這個壁畫就是科爾特斯在登陸墨西哥後所做的交易。我們可以看畫裡面，一手交貨，一手交錢，而戴黑高帽的那一位就是記帳士，這在交易什麼？看一下左邊這張，這兩個士兵正在原住民的臉上狠狠的燒上烙印，這是一場奴隸的交易；我們再看一下士兵的身後，站著一排即將任人宰割的原住民族人，而這些敢於反抗殖民者的族人，他們的下場不是燒死、吊死，就是殺死；再看一下刑場旁邊，還停泊著幾艘殖民者的船艦。","部長，在這裡您可以大聲高喊您的臺獨理念，但是我要建議您，也奉勸您，不要用臺灣人民的納稅錢去美化殖民者的罪刑，去打造虛假的史觀，我要在這邊提醒你，可能沒有時間讓你回應，但是你的回應已經在「1624」裡面看到了，希望你的歷史史觀能夠改變，跟我一樣，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員。","再來請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":322,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-5","speakers":["林宜瑾","陳秀寳","洪孟楷","萬美玲","柯志恩","羅廷瑋","葉元之","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","張雅琳","郭昱晴","吳春城","林倩綺","范雲","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:05,487\n二月底的時候您親自親力親為擔任藝術總監\n\n2\n00:00:26,508 --> 00:00:54,253\n推出號誌的8千多萬的歌仔大戲叫做《1624》隆重開演了這次舞台劇之大、民心之多、動員之重看一下預算之高可以說是前所未有的而根據您所說這齣戲的目的是希望帶領所有的觀眾一起回到當年台灣跟世界相遇的海上而希望用自己的聲音說自己的故事期盼讓一群台灣人重新認識台灣\n\n3\n00:00:55,813 --> 00:01:12,719\n二、認知臺灣早在17世紀的時候已經成為世界史的場所二、籌備長達一年為的是留給臺灣一個見證400年歷史的機會二、部長投入空前的經費打造這齣戲二、我花了很多的時間也很認真地看完了這齣戲\n\n4\n00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:29,793\n戲劇專業的部分我沒有意見但是對於內容我大大的有意見我看完了這齣所謂的海洋史觀的作品的時候我不僅想要問1624這部戲要帶領觀眾去相遇去看到的到底是誰的歷史\n\n5\n00:01:31,434 --> 00:01:54,777\n如果是要談台灣歷史為什麼一定要從1624算起為什麼不是從2000年前的2000多年前的十三行文化還有鳥孫文化談起那不是更悠久更深刻嗎還是有些人刻意的安排只是為了新世界來到我家門口的那一天也只是為了一個400年的台獨政治執念\n\n6\n00:01:55,678 --> 00:02:16,045\n而我發現透過海洋史觀你們所看到的世界和我看到的歷史是那麼樣的截然不同我們看一下同樣是1624年你們看到的是17世紀大航海時代的自由貿易可是我看到的卻是世界的原住民族被殖民被掠奪甚至被滅絕\n\n7\n00:02:17,355 --> 00:02:40,700\n你們在戲裡面歌頌了黃金夢鄉的五大洋但是我看到的卻是大西洋海底那個兩百萬具奴隸的屍骨你們看到的是奇貨可居的鹿皮而我看到的是西班牙族的長老在出席荷蘭議會的時候因為繳不出鹿皮的抵稅金就被當眾一頓藤條的毒打\n\n8\n00:02:41,440 --> 00:03:05,657\n你們看到的是原住民號稱400年在國際談判桌上他是一位台灣的主人但我看到的卻是被荷蘭東印度公司逮捕囚禁的李家長老成為談判桌上的菜單同樣的歷史同樣的貿易同樣的人物同樣的路皮為什麼我們兩個之間看到的差距會那麼大\n\n9\n00:03:06,457 --> 00:03:30,493\n我認為我們最大的不同是因為我們看歷史的觀點你們津津樂道的海洋史觀其實就是歐洲殖民者海外掠奪的強盜史觀而我不斷提出的歷史質問就是被殖民還有被滅絕的世界原住民族的史觀站在不同的位置來看歷史當然我們的結果會是不一樣\n\n10\n00:03:31,374 --> 00:03:58,849\n然後我在1624裏面我看不到文化部對於殖民歷史的反省就是對於蔡英文總統對原住民族歷史轉型正以最大的挑戰跟破壞最後呢我要給大家分享也跟部長分享一幅畫這個是陳列在墨西哥市國家公理的壁畫他的名稱叫做《科爾特斯的到來》也是著名畫家迪亞戈·李維拉這個的作品\n\n11\n00:03:59,950 --> 00:04:09,073\n克爾特斯就是打敗阿茲特克帝國的西班牙殖民者也就是大航海時代所謂的國際貿易的典型代表\n\n12\n00:04:10,297 --> 00:04:32,734\n這幅畫就是科爾特斯他在登陸墨西哥後所做的交易我們可以看畫裡面一手交貨一手交錢而戴黑高帽的那一位就是記帳師在交易什麼交易看一下左邊這張交易的是這兩個士兵正在用原住民的臉上燒上狠狠的烙印\n\n13\n00:04:33,775 --> 00:04:56,238\n而這是一場奴隸的交易我們再看一下士兵的身後站著一排即將令人宰割的原住民的族人而這些敢於反抗殖民者的族人他們的下場不是燒死吊死就是殺死然後在刑場的行片再看一下還停泊著幾艘殖民者的船艦\n\n14\n00:04:57,739 --> 00:05:24,680\n部長在這裏您可以大聲高喊您的台獨理念但是我要建議您也奉勸您不要用臺灣人民的納稅錢去美化殖民者的罪行去打造虛假的史觀我要在這邊提醒你可能沒有讓你學解你的回應但是你的回應已經在1624裏面看到了希望你的歷史史觀能夠改變跟我一樣謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4286\t5487\t二月底的時候您親自親力親為擔任藝術總監\n26508\t54253\t推出號誌的8千多萬的歌仔大戲叫做《1624》隆重開演了這次舞台劇之大、民心之多、動員之重看一下預算之高可以說是前所未有的而根據您所說這齣戲的目的是希望帶領所有的觀眾一起回到當年台灣跟世界相遇的海上而希望用自己的聲音說自己的故事期盼讓一群台灣人重新認識台灣\n55813\t72719\t二、認知臺灣早在17世紀的時候已經成為世界史的場所二、籌備長達一年為的是留給臺灣一個見證400年歷史的機會二、部長投入空前的經費打造這齣戲二、我花了很多的時間也很認真地看完了這齣戲\n74800\t89793\t戲劇專業的部分我沒有意見但是對於內容我大大的有意見我看完了這齣所謂的海洋史觀的作品的時候我不僅想要問1624這部戲要帶領觀眾去相遇去看到的到底是誰的歷史\n91434\t114777\t如果是要談台灣歷史為什麼一定要從1624算起為什麼不是從2000年前的2000多年前的十三行文化還有鳥孫文化談起那不是更悠久更深刻嗎還是有些人刻意的安排只是為了新世界來到我家門口的那一天也只是為了一個400年的台獨政治執念\n115678\t136045\t而我發現透過海洋史觀你們所看到的世界和我看到的歷史是那麼樣的截然不同我們看一下同樣是1624年你們看到的是17世紀大航海時代的自由貿易可是我看到的卻是世界的原住民族被殖民被掠奪甚至被滅絕\n137355\t160700\t你們在戲裡面歌頌了黃金夢鄉的五大洋但是我看到的卻是大西洋海底那個兩百萬具奴隸的屍骨你們看到的是奇貨可居的鹿皮而我看到的是西班牙族的長老在出席荷蘭議會的時候因為繳不出鹿皮的抵稅金就被當眾一頓藤條的毒打\n161440\t185657\t你們看到的是原住民號稱400年在國際談判桌上他是一位台灣的主人但我看到的卻是被荷蘭東印度公司逮捕囚禁的李家長老成為談判桌上的菜單同樣的歷史同樣的貿易同樣的人物同樣的路皮為什麼我們兩個之間看到的差距會那麼大\n186457\t210493\t我認為我們最大的不同是因為我們看歷史的觀點你們津津樂道的海洋史觀其實就是歐洲殖民者海外掠奪的強盜史觀而我不斷提出的歷史質問就是被殖民還有被滅絕的世界原住民族的史觀站在不同的位置來看歷史當然我們的結果會是不一樣\n211374\t238849\t然後我在1624裏面我看不到文化部對於殖民歷史的反省就是對於蔡英文總統對原住民族歷史轉型正以最大的挑戰跟破壞最後呢我要給大家分享也跟部長分享一幅畫這個是陳列在墨西哥市國家公理的壁畫他的名稱叫做《科爾特斯的到來》也是著名畫家迪亞戈·李維拉這個的作品\n239950\t249073\t克爾特斯就是打敗阿茲特克帝國的西班牙殖民者也就是大航海時代所謂的國際貿易的典型代表\n250297\t272734\t這幅畫就是科爾特斯他在登陸墨西哥後所做的交易我們可以看畫裡面一手交貨一手交錢而戴黑高帽的那一位就是記帳師在交易什麼交易看一下左邊這張交易的是這兩個士兵正在用原住民的臉上燒上狠狠的烙印\n273775\t296238\t而這是一場奴隸的交易我們再看一下士兵的身後站著一排即將令人宰割的原住民的族人而這些敢於反抗殖民者的族人他們的下場不是燒死吊死就是殺死然後在刑場的行片再看一下還停泊著幾艘殖民者的船艦\n297739\t324680\t部長在這裏您可以大聲高喊您的台獨理念但是我要建議您也奉勸您不要用臺灣人民的納稅錢去美化殖民者的罪行去打造虛假的史觀我要在這邊提醒你可能沒有讓你學解你的回應但是你的回應已經在1624裏面看到了希望你的歷史史觀能夠改變跟我一樣謝謝\n","txt":"二月底的時候您親自親力親為擔任藝術總監\n推出號誌的8千多萬的歌仔大戲叫做《1624》隆重開演了這次舞台劇之大、民心之多、動員之重看一下預算之高可以說是前所未有的而根據您所說這齣戲的目的是希望帶領所有的觀眾一起回到當年台灣跟世界相遇的海上而希望用自己的聲音說自己的故事期盼讓一群台灣人重新認識台灣\n二、認知臺灣早在17世紀的時候已經成為世界史的場所二、籌備長達一年為的是留給臺灣一個見證400年歷史的機會二、部長投入空前的經費打造這齣戲二、我花了很多的時間也很認真地看完了這齣戲\n戲劇專業的部分我沒有意見但是對於內容我大大的有意見我看完了這齣所謂的海洋史觀的作品的時候我不僅想要問1624這部戲要帶領觀眾去相遇去看到的到底是誰的歷史\n如果是要談台灣歷史為什麼一定要從1624算起為什麼不是從2000年前的2000多年前的十三行文化還有鳥孫文化談起那不是更悠久更深刻嗎還是有些人刻意的安排只是為了新世界來到我家門口的那一天也只是為了一個400年的台獨政治執念\n而我發現透過海洋史觀你們所看到的世界和我看到的歷史是那麼樣的截然不同我們看一下同樣是1624年你們看到的是17世紀大航海時代的自由貿易可是我看到的卻是世界的原住民族被殖民被掠奪甚至被滅絕\n你們在戲裡面歌頌了黃金夢鄉的五大洋但是我看到的卻是大西洋海底那個兩百萬具奴隸的屍骨你們看到的是奇貨可居的鹿皮而我看到的是西班牙族的長老在出席荷蘭議會的時候因為繳不出鹿皮的抵稅金就被當眾一頓藤條的毒打\n你們看到的是原住民號稱400年在國際談判桌上他是一位台灣的主人但我看到的卻是被荷蘭東印度公司逮捕囚禁的李家長老成為談判桌上的菜單同樣的歷史同樣的貿易同樣的人物同樣的路皮為什麼我們兩個之間看到的差距會那麼大\n我認為我們最大的不同是因為我們看歷史的觀點你們津津樂道的海洋史觀其實就是歐洲殖民者海外掠奪的強盜史觀而我不斷提出的歷史質問就是被殖民還有被滅絕的世界原住民族的史觀站在不同的位置來看歷史當然我們的結果會是不一樣\n然後我在1624裏面我看不到文化部對於殖民歷史的反省就是對於蔡英文總統對原住民族歷史轉型正以最大的挑戰跟破壞最後呢我要給大家分享也跟部長分享一幅畫這個是陳列在墨西哥市國家公理的壁畫他的名稱叫做《科爾特斯的到來》也是著名畫家迪亞戈·李維拉這個的作品\n克爾特斯就是打敗阿茲特克帝國的西班牙殖民者也就是大航海時代所謂的國際貿易的典型代表\n這幅畫就是科爾特斯他在登陸墨西哥後所做的交易我們可以看畫裡面一手交貨一手交錢而戴黑高帽的那一位就是記帳師在交易什麼交易看一下左邊這張交易的是這兩個士兵正在用原住民的臉上燒上狠狠的烙印\n而這是一場奴隸的交易我們再看一下士兵的身後站著一排即將令人宰割的原住民的族人而這些敢於反抗殖民者的族人他們的下場不是燒死吊死就是殺死然後在刑場的行片再看一下還停泊著幾艘殖民者的船艦\n部長在這裏您可以大聲高喊您的台獨理念但是我要建議您也奉勸您不要用臺灣人民的納稅錢去美化殖民者的罪行去打造虛假的史觀我要在這邊提醒你可能沒有讓你學解你的回應但是你的回應已經在1624裏面看到了希望你的歷史史觀能夠改變跟我一樣謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.286 --> 00:05.487\n二月底的時候您親自親力親為擔任藝術總監\n\n00:26.508 --> 00:54.253\n推出號誌的8千多萬的歌仔大戲叫做《1624》隆重開演了這次舞台劇之大、民心之多、動員之重看一下預算之高可以說是前所未有的而根據您所說這齣戲的目的是希望帶領所有的觀眾一起回到當年台灣跟世界相遇的海上而希望用自己的聲音說自己的故事期盼讓一群台灣人重新認識台灣\n\n00:55.813 --> 01:12.719\n二、認知臺灣早在17世紀的時候已經成為世界史的場所二、籌備長達一年為的是留給臺灣一個見證400年歷史的機會二、部長投入空前的經費打造這齣戲二、我花了很多的時間也很認真地看完了這齣戲\n\n01:14.800 --> 01:29.793\n戲劇專業的部分我沒有意見但是對於內容我大大的有意見我看完了這齣所謂的海洋史觀的作品的時候我不僅想要問1624這部戲要帶領觀眾去相遇去看到的到底是誰的歷史\n\n01:31.434 --> 01:54.777\n如果是要談台灣歷史為什麼一定要從1624算起為什麼不是從2000年前的2000多年前的十三行文化還有鳥孫文化談起那不是更悠久更深刻嗎還是有些人刻意的安排只是為了新世界來到我家門口的那一天也只是為了一個400年的台獨政治執念\n\n01:55.678 --> 02:16.045\n而我發現透過海洋史觀你們所看到的世界和我看到的歷史是那麼樣的截然不同我們看一下同樣是1624年你們看到的是17世紀大航海時代的自由貿易可是我看到的卻是世界的原住民族被殖民被掠奪甚至被滅絕\n\n02:17.355 --> 02:40.700\n你們在戲裡面歌頌了黃金夢鄉的五大洋但是我看到的卻是大西洋海底那個兩百萬具奴隸的屍骨你們看到的是奇貨可居的鹿皮而我看到的是西班牙族的長老在出席荷蘭議會的時候因為繳不出鹿皮的抵稅金就被當眾一頓藤條的毒打\n\n02:41.440 --> 03:05.657\n你們看到的是原住民號稱400年在國際談判桌上他是一位台灣的主人但我看到的卻是被荷蘭東印度公司逮捕囚禁的李家長老成為談判桌上的菜單同樣的歷史同樣的貿易同樣的人物同樣的路皮為什麼我們兩個之間看到的差距會那麼大\n\n03:06.457 --> 03:30.493\n我認為我們最大的不同是因為我們看歷史的觀點你們津津樂道的海洋史觀其實就是歐洲殖民者海外掠奪的強盜史觀而我不斷提出的歷史質問就是被殖民還有被滅絕的世界原住民族的史觀站在不同的位置來看歷史當然我們的結果會是不一樣\n\n03:31.374 --> 03:58.849\n然後我在1624裏面我看不到文化部對於殖民歷史的反省就是對於蔡英文總統對原住民族歷史轉型正以最大的挑戰跟破壞最後呢我要給大家分享也跟部長分享一幅畫這個是陳列在墨西哥市國家公理的壁畫他的名稱叫做《科爾特斯的到來》也是著名畫家迪亞戈·李維拉這個的作品\n\n03:59.950 --> 04:09.073\n克爾特斯就是打敗阿茲特克帝國的西班牙殖民者也就是大航海時代所謂的國際貿易的典型代表\n\n04:10.297 --> 04:32.734\n這幅畫就是科爾特斯他在登陸墨西哥後所做的交易我們可以看畫裡面一手交貨一手交錢而戴黑高帽的那一位就是記帳師在交易什麼交易看一下左邊這張交易的是這兩個士兵正在用原住民的臉上燒上狠狠的烙印\n\n04:33.775 --> 04:56.238\n而這是一場奴隸的交易我們再看一下士兵的身後站著一排即將令人宰割的原住民的族人而這些敢於反抗殖民者的族人他們的下場不是燒死吊死就是殺死然後在刑場的行片再看一下還停泊著幾艘殖民者的船艦\n\n04:57.739 --> 05:24.680\n部長在這裏您可以大聲高喊您的台獨理念但是我要建議您也奉勸您不要用臺灣人民的納稅錢去美化殖民者的罪行去打造虛假的史觀我要在這邊提醒你可能沒有讓你學解你的回應但是你的回應已經在1624裏面看到了希望你的歷史史觀能夠改變跟我一樣謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.286,"end":5.487,"text":"二月底的時候您親自親力親為擔任藝術總監"},{"start":26.508,"end":54.253,"text":"推出號誌的8千多萬的歌仔大戲叫做《1624》隆重開演了這次舞台劇之大、民心之多、動員之重看一下預算之高可以說是前所未有的而根據您所說這齣戲的目的是希望帶領所有的觀眾一起回到當年台灣跟世界相遇的海上而希望用自己的聲音說自己的故事期盼讓一群台灣人重新認識台灣"},{"start":55.813,"end":72.719,"text":"二、認知臺灣早在17世紀的時候已經成為世界史的場所二、籌備長達一年為的是留給臺灣一個見證400年歷史的機會二、部長投入空前的經費打造這齣戲二、我花了很多的時間也很認真地看完了這齣戲"},{"start":74.8,"end":89.793,"text":"戲劇專業的部分我沒有意見但是對於內容我大大的有意見我看完了這齣所謂的海洋史觀的作品的時候我不僅想要問1624這部戲要帶領觀眾去相遇去看到的到底是誰的歷史"},{"start":91.434,"end":114.777,"text":"如果是要談台灣歷史為什麼一定要從1624算起為什麼不是從2000年前的2000多年前的十三行文化還有鳥孫文化談起那不是更悠久更深刻嗎還是有些人刻意的安排只是為了新世界來到我家門口的那一天也只是為了一個400年的台獨政治執念"},{"start":115.678,"end":136.045,"text":"而我發現透過海洋史觀你們所看到的世界和我看到的歷史是那麼樣的截然不同我們看一下同樣是1624年你們看到的是17世紀大航海時代的自由貿易可是我看到的卻是世界的原住民族被殖民被掠奪甚至被滅絕"},{"start":137.355,"end":160.7,"text":"你們在戲裡面歌頌了黃金夢鄉的五大洋但是我看到的卻是大西洋海底那個兩百萬具奴隸的屍骨你們看到的是奇貨可居的鹿皮而我看到的是西班牙族的長老在出席荷蘭議會的時候因為繳不出鹿皮的抵稅金就被當眾一頓藤條的毒打"},{"start":161.44,"end":185.657,"text":"你們看到的是原住民號稱400年在國際談判桌上他是一位台灣的主人但我看到的卻是被荷蘭東印度公司逮捕囚禁的李家長老成為談判桌上的菜單同樣的歷史同樣的貿易同樣的人物同樣的路皮為什麼我們兩個之間看到的差距會那麼大"},{"start":186.457,"end":210.493,"text":"我認為我們最大的不同是因為我們看歷史的觀點你們津津樂道的海洋史觀其實就是歐洲殖民者海外掠奪的強盜史觀而我不斷提出的歷史質問就是被殖民還有被滅絕的世界原住民族的史觀站在不同的位置來看歷史當然我們的結果會是不一樣"},{"start":211.374,"end":238.849,"text":"然後我在1624裏面我看不到文化部對於殖民歷史的反省就是對於蔡英文總統對原住民族歷史轉型正以最大的挑戰跟破壞最後呢我要給大家分享也跟部長分享一幅畫這個是陳列在墨西哥市國家公理的壁畫他的名稱叫做《科爾特斯的到來》也是著名畫家迪亞戈·李維拉這個的作品"},{"start":239.95,"end":249.073,"text":"克爾特斯就是打敗阿茲特克帝國的西班牙殖民者也就是大航海時代所謂的國際貿易的典型代表"},{"start":250.297,"end":272.734,"text":"這幅畫就是科爾特斯他在登陸墨西哥後所做的交易我們可以看畫裡面一手交貨一手交錢而戴黑高帽的那一位就是記帳師在交易什麼交易看一下左邊這張交易的是這兩個士兵正在用原住民的臉上燒上狠狠的烙印"},{"start":273.775,"end":296.238,"text":"而這是一場奴隸的交易我們再看一下士兵的身後站著一排即將令人宰割的原住民的族人而這些敢於反抗殖民者的族人他們的下場不是燒死吊死就是殺死然後在刑場的行片再看一下還停泊著幾艘殖民者的船艦"},{"start":297.739,"end":324.68,"text":"部長在這裏您可以大聲高喊您的台獨理念但是我要建議您也奉勸您不要用臺灣人民的納稅錢去美化殖民者的罪行去打造虛假的史觀我要在這邊提醒你可能沒有讓你學解你的回應但是你的回應已經在1624裏面看到了希望你的歷史史觀能夠改變跟我一樣謝謝"}]}}}}