{"id":150554,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150554","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5bcfd19c75d7d99dde53fb40122520aebf8ba9b0039caa7a6ca451516e78a3c485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"14:22:50 - 14:30:42","影片長度":"00:07:52","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查「行人交通安全設施條例草案」(一)行政院函請審議「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案。(二)委員黃捷等16人擬具「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案。【上開議案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,23-1"},"date":"2024-03-27","duration":472,"end_time":"2024-03-27T14:30:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-27T14:22:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1073,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（14時22分）謝謝主席，請內政部次長。"],["主席：請內政部次長。"],["花次長敬群：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：次長好。我們今天要審查行人交通安全設施條例，我覺得還是要從根本去看，因為修這個條例的最根本，我自己在高雄就發現各地方目前的標準、設施其實都非常不一致，所以我們希望能夠統一管理，可是統一管理之後，可不可以有統一的主責機關也非常重要。以高雄來說，我們為了要做這種行人設施編列4年400億，高雄也有很多學校都去爭取通學步道的經費，我看了各縣市的經驗發現，其實每個縣市用這些預算在做行人設施和人行道的時候，每個主管機關其實都不一樣，大家做出來的狀態、標準也是看起來非常不整齊，這是一個必須要去解決的問題。我想要先請教，我們現在道路的管理機關這麼多頭馬車，到底應該怎麼辦？前面有非常多的委員都已經講了現在臺灣交通事故的狀況，我就不贅言，不過必須要洗刷行人地獄是我們共同的目標，先請問次長，你知道現在臺灣道路分屬的主管機關大概有幾個嗎？"],["花次長敬群：中央當然就是交通部和內政部，我們分別有管轄的範圍，到地方政府還會有縣市的、鄉鎮的等等不同層次，甚至還有農路，非常複雜。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，非常複雜，就如次長所說的，目前主管機關真的太多了，像都市計畫內的市區道路是國土管理署，對應的法條是市區道路條例，如果不是道路計畫的話就屬於交通部，公路又分為國道、省道、市道、縣道、區道、鄉道、專用公路，對應的法規是公路法。除此之外，剛剛也有提到農路，農路是歸誰管？"],["花次長敬群：農業部。"],["黃委員捷：農業部，沒有錯，它對應的道路法規又是另外一個農路養護管理要點；我們的林道又是歸誰管？是林務局，沒錯，對應的又是林道管理要點，更不用說水路又是歸經濟部，如果是河川就是河川管理要點，如果是河堤就是河堤管理要點，以上我剛剛隨便唸的，我相信大家都已經亂掉了。太多種類型的道路又分屬在不同機關，導致現在的道路想要有統一的管理規範，實在是無從管理起，所以第一個建議，我希望主管機關是不是可以儘量讓它統一事權，像日本非常單純就是用道路法，用單一法規道路法清楚定義，道路有四種種類，例如高速公路、國道、縣道、市町村道，其實就會讓這個事情單純化，讓道路法可以統一，把所有類型的道路一元化，次長覺得做統一管理有沒有可能？"],["花次長敬群：跟委員報告，還是會有分層的問題，譬如國道這麼長，從北到南跨越非常多的縣市，當然這一定要中央才有辦法整體來管理，這就是我們在看事情的架構和邏輯。到了地方政府，因為過去我們有省道、縣道，這個部分就會變成是地方，如果真的要事權統一的話要回歸地方，因為縣市裡面的所有道路都是中央來管會很奇怪，但是我覺得這個部分是可以來討論怎麼樣簡化。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝次長，我希望我們可以開始這個討論，這也是回歸到接下來既然要做行人設施，行人設施也是一種類型，從人行道來看未來的道路管理，其實我們希望未來要有統一的主責、統一的基準，而不是像我們在地方上會勘，有時候遇到中央主管機關，明明一條是省道、一條是市道，在交叉的十字路口，我們就要分屬兩種不同機關，結果兩種不同機關的看法不一，導致同一條路會有兩種的道路設計標誌，這個是我在地方上非常常遇到的問題，我希望接下來可以處理這個問題。"],["花次長敬群：瞭解。"],["黃委員捷：再來，回歸到今天的重點道路設計的部分，臺灣因為過去的歷史因素，所以有一些比較早發展的都市，是先有都市發展後來才有都市計畫，我們的交通路網有時候是因為規範得晚，因此沒有辦法讓它有一個完整的交通路網，就會常常遇到有一些是既成道路，有一些是計畫道路，然後互相干擾，政府不知道怎麼處理，我們在地方上確實很常遇到這樣的問題，其實也會連帶增加行人的風險。所以我比較想知道的是，我們接下來是不是應該訂定一個更具體的規範，也就是道路安全設計規範，在今天的行人安全條例裡面也沒有這麼明確的規範，接下來是不是應該要朝這個方向更明確來訂定？"],["花次長敬群：委員提的意見真的很好，我們會與交通部一起來討論，因為我們現在訂定的是行人的部分，我們再跟交通部來討論。"],["黃委員捷：OK。我希望接下來我們一步一步把所有完整的規範都統一化，最後是剛剛有很多人提到的，現在的人行道普及率實在太低了，照理說，臺北市應該是最完整的地方，普及率也都是60%左右，高雄市是百分之五十幾，其實都沒有很高，我們訂定完這個條例之後就可以開始著手去調查，把它納入規範，一步一步讓普及率增加，這是我們共同的目標。但是我也看到，因為目前我們的規範裡面、母法裡面有提到道路寬度12公尺以下不用設人行道，你們要不要說明一下，目前的道路設計標準預計是怎樣，幾公尺以下要設，幾公尺以下不用設？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，過去一般來講是8米以下不用設，但是我們這一次新的作法，現在統統要用指定的方式，即便是8米以下，我們也儘量讓你指定出來，或許不一定能做到實體，但是標線型的儘可能也做，或是有騎樓的部分，騎樓可以代替的話，就要讓騎樓暢通，我想透過這些方式來解決，目標就是全部的道路都可以。"],["黃委員捷：好，沒錯。這就是我想問的，到底是不是有辦法在現有的道路之下，讓它都儘量有人行道，這是接下來非常重要的目標，希望你們也把相關的規範再給我一個書面答復，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["花次長敬群：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。","再來請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,23-1","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","黃建賓","蘇巧慧","李昆澤","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","徐富癸","何欣純","林沛祥","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","廖先翔","吳思瑤","黃珊珊","游顥","洪申翰","李柏毅","陳冠廷","吳沛憶","陳素月","魯明哲","黃仁","劉建國","林國成","張智倫","丁學忠","林月琴","張雅琳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查「行人交通安全設施條例草案」(一)行政院函請審議「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案；\n(二)委員黃捷等16人擬具「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1132101_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"150554","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150554","tool":"pyannote","id":"150554-pyannote"},"job_id":"So3NRTVhYIttHMbJ","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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197.355, \"end\": 198.115, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 198.115, \"end\": 198.796, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 198.796, \"end\": 199.716, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 199.716, \"end\": 199.877, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"速\", \"start\": 199.877, \"end\": 200.017, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 200.017, \"end\": 200.237, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 200.237, \"end\": 200.737, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 200.737, \"end\": 201.037, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 201.037, \"end\": 201.198, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 201.198, \"end\": 201.418, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 201.418, \"end\": 202.318, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 202.318, \"end\": 202.559, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 313.922, \"end\": 313.942, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 315.842, \"end\": 316.102, \"text\": \"委員黃捷等16人擬具\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 315.842, \"end\": 315.862, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"捷\", \"start\": 315.862, \"end\": 316.042, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 316.042, \"end\": 316.062, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 316.062, \"end\": 316.082, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"擬\"}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 316.082, \"end\": 316.102, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 335.663, \"end\": 353.672, \"text\": \"所以我比較想知道的是就是我們接下來應該是不是應該訂一個更具體的規範就是道路安全的設計規範那在我們今天的這個行人安全的條例裡面也沒有這麼明確的一個規範我覺得接下來是不是應該要朝這方向更明確來訂定\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 335.663, \"end\": 335.783, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 335.783, \"end\": 335.903, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 353.652, \"end\": 353.672, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 355.111, \"end\": 356.933, \"text\": \"我希望接下來我們一步一步把所有的完整的規範都讓它統一化\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 355.111, \"end\": 355.131, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 355.131, \"end\": 355.151, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 355.151, \"end\": 355.351, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 355.351, \"end\": 355.531, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 355.531, \"end\": 355.832, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 355.832, \"end\": 355.952, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 355.952, \"end\": 356.092, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 356.092, \"end\": 356.112, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 356.112, \"end\": 356.212, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 356.212, \"end\": 356.232, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 356.232, \"end\": 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\"最後就是其實剛剛都有很多人提到的就是我們現在的這個人行道的普及率實在太低了就是連台北市已經是一個照理說要最完整的地方也普及率也都是60左右那我們高雄市是40幾%50幾%那其實都沒有很高那這個當然是我們接下來訂完這個條例之後就可以開始著手去調查然後\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 371.97, \"end\": 372.17, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 372.17, \"end\": 372.371, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 372.371, \"end\": 372.551, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 372.551, \"end\": 372.711, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 372.711, \"end\": 373.391, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 373.391, \"end\": 373.552, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 373.552, \"end\": 373.692, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 373.692, \"end\": 373.892, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 373.892, \"end\": 374.092, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 374.092, \"end\": 374.412, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 374.412, \"end\": 374.672, 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{\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 390.864, \"end\": 391.065, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 391.065, \"end\": 391.325, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 391.325, \"end\": 391.485, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 391.485, \"end\": 391.605, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 391.605, \"end\": 391.705, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 391.705, \"end\": 392.005, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 392.005, \"end\": 392.566, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 392.566, \"end\": 393.386, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 393.386, \"end\": 393.506, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 393.506, \"end\": 393.606, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"我\", 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00:01:01,963\n但統一的管理之後可不可以有統一的主責機關也非常重要因為其實以高雄來說我們在做這種行人設施的時候因為像我們編這個四年四百億然後高雄就是有很多的學校都去爭取這個通學步道的經費然後呢因為各縣市我就去看了一下各縣市的經驗發現說其實每個縣市在用這一些預算然後在做行人設施跟人行道的時候每個主管機關其實都不一樣\n\n3\n00:01:02,483 --> 00:01:02,683\n委員黃捷等16人發言\n\n4\n00:01:18,704 --> 00:01:19,764\n市長知道說我們現在的台灣的道路的分屬的主管機關大概有幾個嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:39,905 --> 00:01:54,199\n從中央當然就是我們交通部跟內政部分別有我們有管轄的範圍,那當然到地方政府當然還會有縣市的、鄉鎮的等等不同層次,甚至還有農務層,非常複雜。\n\n6\n00:01:56,761 --> 00:02:22,815\n非常複雜就是如次長所說的這個期待是目前主管機關真的太多了像是我們都市計劃內裡面市區的道路是國土管理署然後對應的法條就是市區道路條例然後如果不是道路計劃的話屬於交通部那這種公路裡面就還分國道省道市道縣道區道鄉道專用公路然後法規對應的是公路法那除此之外剛剛有提到農路那農路是歸誰管\n\n7\n00:02:25,458 --> 00:02:45,163\n農業部沒有錯那它對應的法規的道路又是另外一個農路的養護的管理要點那我們的林道又是歸誰管是林務局沒錯那這個他們對應道路又是林道的管理要點那更不用說水路又是歸經濟部裡面可能如果是河川就是河川的管理要點\n\n8\n00:02:45,703 --> 00:03:02,303\n如果是合體就是合體的管理要點也就是說以上我剛剛隨便念我相信大家都已經花掉了太多種類型的道路我們分屬在不同的機關那導致說我們現在道路想要去看他統一的管理規範實在是無從管理起\n\n9\n00:03:02,964 --> 00:03:23,900\n所以我是希望說接下來第一個建議就是我們這個主管機關是不是可以盡量的讓他統一事權就例如說像日本他其實非常單純他就是用道路法那道路法用單一的法規裡面就清楚定義說道路有四種種類例如說高速公路國道然後是縣道然後市町村道\n\n10\n00:03:24,580 --> 00:03:35,686\n那其實就會讓這個事情單純化然後讓道路法可以統一辦法所有類型的道路就是一元化那我不知道說次長覺得做這個統一的管理有沒有可能\n\n11\n00:03:37,504 --> 00:03:58,395\n當然還是會有分層的問題啦你說國道這麼長從北到南跨越非常多的縣市那當然這一定要中央才有辦法來整體來管理嘛那當然這就是我們在看事情的架構和邏輯啦所以說其實到了地方政府因為過去我們有省道\n\n12\n00:03:58,875 --> 00:03:58,895\n議員黃捷\n\n13\n00:04:19,553 --> 00:04:45,937\n我希望說我們可以開始這個討論那希望說讓這也是回歸到說接下來因為我們既然要做這個行人設施行人設施也是一種類型啦就是從人行道來看未來的道路管理其實就是我們希望他未來都是有一個統一的主則然後統一的基準而不是就是大家像我們在地方上會堪有時候遇到中央的主管機關明明就是一條省道然後一條是市道他們是交叉了十字路口結果我們\n\n14\n00:04:46,417 --> 00:05:13,942\n就要分屬兩種不同的機關然後兩種不同機關的看法不一導致我們同一條路會有兩種的道路設計的標誌這個是我在地方上非常常遇到的希望可以接著處理這個問題再來就回歸到今天的重點就是道路設計的部分因為其實我們過去台灣也因為是歷史的因素所以有一些比較早發展的都市都是先有都市發展後來才有都市計畫所以我們交通的路網是有時候是因為這個\n\n15\n00:05:15,842 --> 00:05:16,102\n委員黃捷等16人擬具\n\n16\n00:05:35,663 --> 00:05:53,672\n所以我比較想知道的是就是我們接下來應該是不是應該訂一個更具體的規範就是道路安全的設計規範那在我們今天的這個行人安全的條例裡面也沒有這麼明確的一個規範我覺得接下來是不是應該要朝這方向更明確來訂定\n\n17\n00:05:55,111 --> 00:05:56,933\n我希望接下來我們一步一步把所有的完整的規範都讓它統一化\n\n18\n00:06:11,970 --> 00:06:37,990\n最後就是其實剛剛都有很多人提到的就是我們現在的這個人行道的普及率實在太低了就是連台北市已經是一個照理說要最完整的地方也普及率也都是60左右那我們高雄市是40幾%50幾%那其實都沒有很高那這個當然是我們接下來訂完這個條例之後就可以開始著手去調查然後\n\n19\n00:06:38,390 --> 00:06:38,690\n委員黃捷等16人擬具\n\n20\n00:06:53,220 --> 00:07:15,063\n那要不要請說明一下就是我們的道路設計的標準目前預計是怎樣幾公尺以下要設幾公尺以下不用設我跟委員報告過去是過去一般來講是8米以下不用但是我們這一次的一個新的這樣的一個做法現在就是通通要用指定的方式就即便你是8米以下\n\n21\n00:07:15,603 --> 00:07:15,623\n議員黃捷\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7483\t12564\t好 謝謝主席請內政部次長好內政部次長好次長好因為今天我們要審這個行人安全的設施條例那我覺得還是要從頭根本去看啦因為其實要設這個條例的最根本就是我自己在高雄就發現說各地方的目前的標準啊設施啊其實都非常不一致所以我們希望統一的管理\n36209\t61963\t但統一的管理之後可不可以有統一的主責機關也非常重要因為其實以高雄來說我們在做這種行人設施的時候因為像我們編這個四年四百億然後高雄就是有很多的學校都去爭取這個通學步道的經費然後呢因為各縣市我就去看了一下各縣市的經驗發現說其實每個縣市在用這一些預算然後在做行人設施跟人行道的時候每個主管機關其實都不一樣\n62483\t62683\t委員黃捷等16人發言\n78704\t79764\t市長知道說我們現在的台灣的道路的分屬的主管機關大概有幾個嗎?\n99905\t114199\t從中央當然就是我們交通部跟內政部分別有我們有管轄的範圍,那當然到地方政府當然還會有縣市的、鄉鎮的等等不同層次,甚至還有農務層,非常複雜。\n116761\t142815\t非常複雜就是如次長所說的這個期待是目前主管機關真的太多了像是我們都市計劃內裡面市區的道路是國土管理署然後對應的法條就是市區道路條例然後如果不是道路計劃的話屬於交通部那這種公路裡面就還分國道省道市道縣道區道鄉道專用公路然後法規對應的是公路法那除此之外剛剛有提到農路那農路是歸誰管\n145458\t165163\t農業部沒有錯那它對應的法規的道路又是另外一個農路的養護的管理要點那我們的林道又是歸誰管是林務局沒錯那這個他們對應道路又是林道的管理要點那更不用說水路又是歸經濟部裡面可能如果是河川就是河川的管理要點\n165703\t182303\t如果是合體就是合體的管理要點也就是說以上我剛剛隨便念我相信大家都已經花掉了太多種類型的道路我們分屬在不同的機關那導致說我們現在道路想要去看他統一的管理規範實在是無從管理起\n182964\t203900\t所以我是希望說接下來第一個建議就是我們這個主管機關是不是可以盡量的讓他統一事權就例如說像日本他其實非常單純他就是用道路法那道路法用單一的法規裡面就清楚定義說道路有四種種類例如說高速公路國道然後是縣道然後市町村道\n204580\t215686\t那其實就會讓這個事情單純化然後讓道路法可以統一辦法所有類型的道路就是一元化那我不知道說次長覺得做這個統一的管理有沒有可能\n217504\t238395\t當然還是會有分層的問題啦你說國道這麼長從北到南跨越非常多的縣市那當然這一定要中央才有辦法來整體來管理嘛那當然這就是我們在看事情的架構和邏輯啦所以說其實到了地方政府因為過去我們有省道\n238875\t238895\t議員黃捷\n259553\t285937\t我希望說我們可以開始這個討論那希望說讓這也是回歸到說接下來因為我們既然要做這個行人設施行人設施也是一種類型啦就是從人行道來看未來的道路管理其實就是我們希望他未來都是有一個統一的主則然後統一的基準而不是就是大家像我們在地方上會堪有時候遇到中央的主管機關明明就是一條省道然後一條是市道他們是交叉了十字路口結果我們\n286417\t313942\t就要分屬兩種不同的機關然後兩種不同機關的看法不一導致我們同一條路會有兩種的道路設計的標誌這個是我在地方上非常常遇到的希望可以接著處理這個問題再來就回歸到今天的重點就是道路設計的部分因為其實我們過去台灣也因為是歷史的因素所以有一些比較早發展的都市都是先有都市發展後來才有都市計畫所以我們交通的路網是有時候是因為這個\n315842\t316102\t委員黃捷等16人擬具\n335663\t353672\t所以我比較想知道的是就是我們接下來應該是不是應該訂一個更具體的規範就是道路安全的設計規範那在我們今天的這個行人安全的條例裡面也沒有這麼明確的一個規範我覺得接下來是不是應該要朝這方向更明確來訂定\n355111\t356933\t我希望接下來我們一步一步把所有的完整的規範都讓它統一化\n371970\t397990\t最後就是其實剛剛都有很多人提到的就是我們現在的這個人行道的普及率實在太低了就是連台北市已經是一個照理說要最完整的地方也普及率也都是60左右那我們高雄市是40幾%50幾%那其實都沒有很高那這個當然是我們接下來訂完這個條例之後就可以開始著手去調查然後\n398390\t398690\t委員黃捷等16人擬具\n413220\t435063\t那要不要請說明一下就是我們的道路設計的標準目前預計是怎樣幾公尺以下要設幾公尺以下不用設我跟委員報告過去是過去一般來講是8米以下不用但是我們這一次的一個新的這樣的一個做法現在就是通通要用指定的方式就即便你是8米以下\n435603\t435623\t議員黃捷\n452022\t473507\t響鐘響鐘\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席請內政部次長好內政部次長好次長好因為今天我們要審這個行人安全的設施條例那我覺得還是要從頭根本去看啦因為其實要設這個條例的最根本就是我自己在高雄就發現說各地方的目前的標準啊設施啊其實都非常不一致所以我們希望統一的管理\n但統一的管理之後可不可以有統一的主責機關也非常重要因為其實以高雄來說我們在做這種行人設施的時候因為像我們編這個四年四百億然後高雄就是有很多的學校都去爭取這個通學步道的經費然後呢因為各縣市我就去看了一下各縣市的經驗發現說其實每個縣市在用這一些預算然後在做行人設施跟人行道的時候每個主管機關其實都不一樣\n委員黃捷等16人發言\n市長知道說我們現在的台灣的道路的分屬的主管機關大概有幾個嗎?\n從中央當然就是我們交通部跟內政部分別有我們有管轄的範圍,那當然到地方政府當然還會有縣市的、鄉鎮的等等不同層次,甚至還有農務層,非常複雜。\n非常複雜就是如次長所說的這個期待是目前主管機關真的太多了像是我們都市計劃內裡面市區的道路是國土管理署然後對應的法條就是市區道路條例然後如果不是道路計劃的話屬於交通部那這種公路裡面就還分國道省道市道縣道區道鄉道專用公路然後法規對應的是公路法那除此之外剛剛有提到農路那農路是歸誰管\n農業部沒有錯那它對應的法規的道路又是另外一個農路的養護的管理要點那我們的林道又是歸誰管是林務局沒錯那這個他們對應道路又是林道的管理要點那更不用說水路又是歸經濟部裡面可能如果是河川就是河川的管理要點\n如果是合體就是合體的管理要點也就是說以上我剛剛隨便念我相信大家都已經花掉了太多種類型的道路我們分屬在不同的機關那導致說我們現在道路想要去看他統一的管理規範實在是無從管理起\n所以我是希望說接下來第一個建議就是我們這個主管機關是不是可以盡量的讓他統一事權就例如說像日本他其實非常單純他就是用道路法那道路法用單一的法規裡面就清楚定義說道路有四種種類例如說高速公路國道然後是縣道然後市町村道\n那其實就會讓這個事情單純化然後讓道路法可以統一辦法所有類型的道路就是一元化那我不知道說次長覺得做這個統一的管理有沒有可能\n當然還是會有分層的問題啦你說國道這麼長從北到南跨越非常多的縣市那當然這一定要中央才有辦法來整體來管理嘛那當然這就是我們在看事情的架構和邏輯啦所以說其實到了地方政府因為過去我們有省道\n議員黃捷\n我希望說我們可以開始這個討論那希望說讓這也是回歸到說接下來因為我們既然要做這個行人設施行人設施也是一種類型啦就是從人行道來看未來的道路管理其實就是我們希望他未來都是有一個統一的主則然後統一的基準而不是就是大家像我們在地方上會堪有時候遇到中央的主管機關明明就是一條省道然後一條是市道他們是交叉了十字路口結果我們\n就要分屬兩種不同的機關然後兩種不同機關的看法不一導致我們同一條路會有兩種的道路設計的標誌這個是我在地方上非常常遇到的希望可以接著處理這個問題再來就回歸到今天的重點就是道路設計的部分因為其實我們過去台灣也因為是歷史的因素所以有一些比較早發展的都市都是先有都市發展後來才有都市計畫所以我們交通的路網是有時候是因為這個\n委員黃捷等16人擬具\n所以我比較想知道的是就是我們接下來應該是不是應該訂一個更具體的規範就是道路安全的設計規範那在我們今天的這個行人安全的條例裡面也沒有這麼明確的一個規範我覺得接下來是不是應該要朝這方向更明確來訂定\n我希望接下來我們一步一步把所有的完整的規範都讓它統一化\n最後就是其實剛剛都有很多人提到的就是我們現在的這個人行道的普及率實在太低了就是連台北市已經是一個照理說要最完整的地方也普及率也都是60左右那我們高雄市是40幾%50幾%那其實都沒有很高那這個當然是我們接下來訂完這個條例之後就可以開始著手去調查然後\n委員黃捷等16人擬具\n那要不要請說明一下就是我們的道路設計的標準目前預計是怎樣幾公尺以下要設幾公尺以下不用設我跟委員報告過去是過去一般來講是8米以下不用但是我們這一次的一個新的這樣的一個做法現在就是通通要用指定的方式就即便你是8米以下\n議員黃捷\n響鐘響鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.483 --> 00:12.564\n好謝謝主席請內政部次長好內政部次長好次長好因為今天我們要審這個行人安全的設施條例那我覺得還是要從頭根本去看啦因為其實要設這個條例的最根本就是我自己在高雄就發現說各地方的目前的標準啊設施啊其實都非常不一致所以我們希望統一的管理\n\n00:36.209 --> 01:01.963\n但統一的管理之後可不可以有統一的主責機關也非常重要因為其實以高雄來說我們在做這種行人設施的時候因為像我們編這個四年四百億然後高雄就是有很多的學校都去爭取這個通學步道的經費然後呢因為各縣市我就去看了一下各縣市的經驗發現說其實每個縣市在用這一些預算然後在做行人設施跟人行道的時候每個主管機關其實都不一樣\n\n01:02.483 --> 01:02.683\n委員黃捷等16人發言\n\n01:18.704 --> 01:19.764\n市長知道說我們現在的台灣的道路的分屬的主管機關大概有幾個嗎?\n\n01:39.905 --> 01:54.199\n從中央當然就是我們交通部跟內政部分別有我們有管轄的範圍,那當然到地方政府當然還會有縣市的、鄉鎮的等等不同層次,甚至還有農務層,非常複雜。\n\n01:56.761 --> 02:22.815\n非常複雜就是如次長所說的這個期待是目前主管機關真的太多了像是我們都市計劃內裡面市區的道路是國土管理署然後對應的法條就是市區道路條例然後如果不是道路計劃的話屬於交通部那這種公路裡面就還分國道省道市道縣道區道鄉道專用公路然後法規對應的是公路法那除此之外剛剛有提到農路那農路是歸誰管\n\n02:25.458 --> 02:45.163\n農業部沒有錯那它對應的法規的道路又是另外一個農路的養護的管理要點那我們的林道又是歸誰管是林務局沒錯那這個他們對應道路又是林道的管理要點那更不用說水路又是歸經濟部裡面可能如果是河川就是河川的管理要點\n\n02:45.703 --> 03:02.303\n如果是合體就是合體的管理要點也就是說以上我剛剛隨便念我相信大家都已經花掉了太多種類型的道路我們分屬在不同的機關那導致說我們現在道路想要去看他統一的管理規範實在是無從管理起\n\n03:02.964 --> 03:23.900\n所以我是希望說接下來第一個建議就是我們這個主管機關是不是可以盡量的讓他統一事權就例如說像日本他其實非常單純他就是用道路法那道路法用單一的法規裡面就清楚定義說道路有四種種類例如說高速公路國道然後是縣道然後市町村道\n\n03:24.580 --> 03:35.686\n那其實就會讓這個事情單純化然後讓道路法可以統一辦法所有類型的道路就是一元化那我不知道說次長覺得做這個統一的管理有沒有可能\n\n03:37.504 --> 03:58.395\n當然還是會有分層的問題啦你說國道這麼長從北到南跨越非常多的縣市那當然這一定要中央才有辦法來整體來管理嘛那當然這就是我們在看事情的架構和邏輯啦所以說其實到了地方政府因為過去我們有省道\n\n03:58.875 --> 03:58.895\n議員黃捷\n\n04:19.553 --> 04:45.937\n我希望說我們可以開始這個討論那希望說讓這也是回歸到說接下來因為我們既然要做這個行人設施行人設施也是一種類型啦就是從人行道來看未來的道路管理其實就是我們希望他未來都是有一個統一的主則然後統一的基準而不是就是大家像我們在地方上會堪有時候遇到中央的主管機關明明就是一條省道然後一條是市道他們是交叉了十字路口結果我們\n\n04:46.417 --> 05:13.942\n就要分屬兩種不同的機關然後兩種不同機關的看法不一導致我們同一條路會有兩種的道路設計的標誌這個是我在地方上非常常遇到的希望可以接著處理這個問題再來就回歸到今天的重點就是道路設計的部分因為其實我們過去台灣也因為是歷史的因素所以有一些比較早發展的都市都是先有都市發展後來才有都市計畫所以我們交通的路網是有時候是因為這個\n\n05:15.842 --> 05:16.102\n委員黃捷等16人擬具\n\n05:35.663 --> 05:53.672\n所以我比較想知道的是就是我們接下來應該是不是應該訂一個更具體的規範就是道路安全的設計規範那在我們今天的這個行人安全的條例裡面也沒有這麼明確的一個規範我覺得接下來是不是應該要朝這方向更明確來訂定\n\n05:55.111 --> 05:56.933\n我希望接下來我們一步一步把所有的完整的規範都讓它統一化\n\n06:11.970 --> 06:37.990\n最後就是其實剛剛都有很多人提到的就是我們現在的這個人行道的普及率實在太低了就是連台北市已經是一個照理說要最完整的地方也普及率也都是60左右那我們高雄市是40幾%50幾%那其實都沒有很高那這個當然是我們接下來訂完這個條例之後就可以開始著手去調查然後\n\n06:38.390 --> 06:38.690\n委員黃捷等16人擬具\n\n06:53.220 --> 07:15.063\n那要不要請說明一下就是我們的道路設計的標準目前預計是怎樣幾公尺以下要設幾公尺以下不用設我跟委員報告過去是過去一般來講是8米以下不用但是我們這一次的一個新的這樣的一個做法現在就是通通要用指定的方式就即便你是8米以下\n\n07:15.603 --> 07:15.623\n議員黃捷\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.483,"end":12.564,"text":"好 謝謝主席請內政部次長好內政部次長好次長好因為今天我們要審這個行人安全的設施條例那我覺得還是要從頭根本去看啦因為其實要設這個條例的最根本就是我自己在高雄就發現說各地方的目前的標準啊設施啊其實都非常不一致所以我們希望統一的管理"},{"start":36.209,"end":61.963,"text":"但統一的管理之後可不可以有統一的主責機關也非常重要因為其實以高雄來說我們在做這種行人設施的時候因為像我們編這個四年四百億然後高雄就是有很多的學校都去爭取這個通學步道的經費然後呢因為各縣市我就去看了一下各縣市的經驗發現說其實每個縣市在用這一些預算然後在做行人設施跟人行道的時候每個主管機關其實都不一樣"},{"start":62.483,"end":62.683,"text":"委員黃捷等16人發言"},{"start":78.704,"end":79.764,"text":"市長知道說我們現在的台灣的道路的分屬的主管機關大概有幾個嗎?"},{"start":99.905,"end":114.199,"text":"從中央當然就是我們交通部跟內政部分別有我們有管轄的範圍,那當然到地方政府當然還會有縣市的、鄉鎮的等等不同層次,甚至還有農務層,非常複雜。"},{"start":116.761,"end":142.815,"text":"非常複雜就是如次長所說的這個期待是目前主管機關真的太多了像是我們都市計劃內裡面市區的道路是國土管理署然後對應的法條就是市區道路條例然後如果不是道路計劃的話屬於交通部那這種公路裡面就還分國道省道市道縣道區道鄉道專用公路然後法規對應的是公路法那除此之外剛剛有提到農路那農路是歸誰管"},{"start":145.458,"end":165.163,"text":"農業部沒有錯那它對應的法規的道路又是另外一個農路的養護的管理要點那我們的林道又是歸誰管是林務局沒錯那這個他們對應道路又是林道的管理要點那更不用說水路又是歸經濟部裡面可能如果是河川就是河川的管理要點"},{"start":165.703,"end":182.303,"text":"如果是合體就是合體的管理要點也就是說以上我剛剛隨便念我相信大家都已經花掉了太多種類型的道路我們分屬在不同的機關那導致說我們現在道路想要去看他統一的管理規範實在是無從管理起"},{"start":182.964,"end":203.9,"text":"所以我是希望說接下來第一個建議就是我們這個主管機關是不是可以盡量的讓他統一事權就例如說像日本他其實非常單純他就是用道路法那道路法用單一的法規裡面就清楚定義說道路有四種種類例如說高速公路國道然後是縣道然後市町村道"},{"start":204.58,"end":215.686,"text":"那其實就會讓這個事情單純化然後讓道路法可以統一辦法所有類型的道路就是一元化那我不知道說次長覺得做這個統一的管理有沒有可能"},{"start":217.504,"end":238.395,"text":"當然還是會有分層的問題啦你說國道這麼長從北到南跨越非常多的縣市那當然這一定要中央才有辦法來整體來管理嘛那當然這就是我們在看事情的架構和邏輯啦所以說其實到了地方政府因為過去我們有省道"},{"start":238.875,"end":238.895,"text":"議員黃捷"},{"start":259.553,"end":285.937,"text":"我希望說我們可以開始這個討論那希望說讓這也是回歸到說接下來因為我們既然要做這個行人設施行人設施也是一種類型啦就是從人行道來看未來的道路管理其實就是我們希望他未來都是有一個統一的主則然後統一的基準而不是就是大家像我們在地方上會堪有時候遇到中央的主管機關明明就是一條省道然後一條是市道他們是交叉了十字路口結果我們"},{"start":286.417,"end":313.942,"text":"就要分屬兩種不同的機關然後兩種不同機關的看法不一導致我們同一條路會有兩種的道路設計的標誌這個是我在地方上非常常遇到的希望可以接著處理這個問題再來就回歸到今天的重點就是道路設計的部分因為其實我們過去台灣也因為是歷史的因素所以有一些比較早發展的都市都是先有都市發展後來才有都市計畫所以我們交通的路網是有時候是因為這個"},{"start":315.842,"end":316.102,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":335.663,"end":353.672,"text":"所以我比較想知道的是就是我們接下來應該是不是應該訂一個更具體的規範就是道路安全的設計規範那在我們今天的這個行人安全的條例裡面也沒有這麼明確的一個規範我覺得接下來是不是應該要朝這方向更明確來訂定"},{"start":355.111,"end":356.933,"text":"我希望接下來我們一步一步把所有的完整的規範都讓它統一化"},{"start":371.97,"end":397.99,"text":"最後就是其實剛剛都有很多人提到的就是我們現在的這個人行道的普及率實在太低了就是連台北市已經是一個照理說要最完整的地方也普及率也都是60左右那我們高雄市是40幾%50幾%那其實都沒有很高那這個當然是我們接下來訂完這個條例之後就可以開始著手去調查然後"},{"start":398.39,"end":398.69,"text":"委員黃捷等16人擬具"},{"start":413.22,"end":435.063,"text":"那要不要請說明一下就是我們的道路設計的標準目前預計是怎樣幾公尺以下要設幾公尺以下不用設我跟委員報告過去是過去一般來講是8米以下不用但是我們這一次的一個新的這樣的一個做法現在就是通通要用指定的方式就即便你是8米以下"},{"start":435.603,"end":435.623,"text":"議員黃捷"},{"start":452.022,"end":473.507,"text":"響鐘響鐘"}]}}}}