{"id":150560,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150560","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fc09d97f3151fdf7681d5faff7298013836925fc87402eef8ba9b0039caa7a6a12d4359cc2b37275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:10:35 - 09:23:50","影片長度":"00:13:15","會議時間":"2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。（3月27日及28日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-5"},"date":"2024-03-28","duration":795,"end_time":"2024-03-28T09:23:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-28T09:10:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":26,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時10分）主席謝謝。麻煩請陳主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。核安會第一次的業務報告，本席一直希望能夠跟我們的部會首長討論一些觀念性以及政策性的問題，因為這才能夠瞭解國家重大方向以及各部會的態度以及負責任的立場。首先，本席有看到，英國在最近有講，核電需求大，英國要斥資80億促進核能產業的人力。主委有看到這則新聞嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委有看到這兩天也傳出Amazon公司說要斥資208億買核能發電，報導顯示說，用電需求與日俱增，目前百分之百綠電不可行。請教主委有看到這則新聞嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有看到。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒看到？"],["陳主任委員東陽：可能沒有仔細讀，因為是最近的新聞。"],["洪委員孟楷：了不了解Amazon說要斥資208億，花費6.5億美元買核能，以便全天候供應可靠運作的能源？來，今天的新聞，拜登政府說提供15億美元的貸款，要讓美國密西根州一座在2022年已關閉的核電廠重啟，有看到這則新聞嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：最近國內討論得沸沸揚揚的就是電價上漲的問題，大家會覺得能源政策是不是有問題，而台電的發電，不管是效益、不管是成本整個配比的失衡，而造成連三年電價調漲，而且電價調漲造成什麼？是物價的通貨膨脹、物價的全面提升，所以我們現在也在思考，能源政策要面對的是安全、專業、合理、可靠，大家要來共同選擇。英國的首相說，為什麼他們要斥資80億來做核能？因為要迎來新一代的核能企業，不只保障安全，維持能源安全，還能一勞永逸的降低我們的電費。主委有看到嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有感覺很誘人？可以一勞永逸的降低我們的電費，這是英國首相講的。所以對比現在臺灣的現況，我想請教，核能發電在目前來講，不管是現在核二廠已經停擺，核三廠到2025年的時候政府也要把兩座機組停擺，我們有沒有延役的可能性？"],["陳主任委員東陽：跟委員報告，延役是社會非常關切的議題，這個也是國家能源的政策，核安會……"],["洪委員孟楷：以你部會的角度，在安全專業上來講，國內兩座核電廠──核二廠、核三廠的延役，可不可行？專業評估判斷。"],["陳主任委員東陽：我跟委員報告，每一個核電廠就像每一個人的健康情況，它過去運轉的情況都是要個案來看。就目前，台電如果要延役，技術層面上台電也必須去檢視核電廠機組個別的情況，所以我在這個地方沒有辦法通盤來判斷。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，請教我們核二廠、核三廠的健康情況好不好？如果你要講個案的話，那我們就講個案。因為主委兩個禮拜前有來我辦公室拜會，那時候我就請教，臺灣最喜歡跟美國比，美國現在有多少核電廠？那時候我提出來，請你回去做功課，美國現在有多少核電廠？"],["陳主任委員東陽：九十幾座。"],["洪委員孟楷：請教核能占美國全國總體的發電量有多少？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個我不是很清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是吧！主委，我兩個禮拜前就洩題給你了，你現在跟我講你不是很清楚。"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個我們再去查一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有同仁知道嗎？幫個忙好不好？核安會，你不覺得這是一個基本常識ABC嗎？如果臺灣會考慮我們的核能占全國總體發電量的占比有多少，那對比美國，美國有九十幾座核能發電廠，占他們全國的發電量有多少？我直接告訴你答案，你Google一下就知道，至少差不多兩成左右啦！"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：請教美國九十幾座核電廠裡面超過40年的比例是多少？也就是他們有延役的發電廠比例有多少？"],["陳主任委員東陽：59座現在是超過40年。"],["洪委員孟楷：59座超過40年，所以美國一半的核電廠都超過40年以上，等於是美國一半的核電廠都有延役。"],["陳主任委員東陽：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那再請教，美國現在歷史最悠久的那個發電廠，它使用多久？"],["陳主任委員東陽：還沒有到60年。"],["洪委員孟楷：換言之，從40年到60年，美國有59座發電廠都是使用超過40年。那請教美國59座發電廠裡面有沒有哪一座不安全？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個安不安全，洪委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：他們的發電廠是不是一樣是40年為年限？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：跟我們臺灣一樣嘛！但是他們有59座在要除役之前提出申請，然後通過他們有關機關的核准，認定可以持續延役，所以他們現在59座發電廠都使用超過40年以上。我只請教，就我們核安會去做瞭解、去做survey，美國在檢視要給他們延役的時候有沒有任何的放水？"],["陳主任委員東陽：應該是沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：這59座超過40年以上的核電廠有沒有哪一座不安全？"],["陳主任委員東陽：目前沒有，但是我跟洪委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有嘛！所以本席就講，其實就專業安全的考量來講，核電廠如果要持續使用是可以的，而且現在美國他們持續在使用，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委……"],["陳主任委員東陽：是不是可以讓我稍微解釋一下？"],["洪委員孟楷：你要跟我解釋什麼？"],["陳主任委員東陽：讓我解釋一下，半分鐘。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席的答詢時間有限，所以不要言不及義，來。"],["陳主任委員東陽：比如說以日本來講，日本今年1月1號能登半島地震……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席跟你討論美國，結果你現在扯到日本，那就是言不及義，就是答非所問。"],["陳主任委員東陽：因為是有地震的問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席再請教，現在很多企業界的領袖跟過半數的民意可能都贊同民進黨的能源政策應該要重新被檢討，之前賴清德總統當選人也有到新竹科學園區去跟企業界的大老閉門會談，媒體傳出來是說很多企業界大老也表達，其實政府應該可以持續發展我們任何的能源，包括核能。有沒有看到這個新聞？賴清德總統當選人520上任之後，他的政策會怎麼走，不知道，但現在有很多企業界大老在閉門會議的時候都直接當面跟他講，其實民進黨的非核家園神主牌也不一定要抱著不放啊！如果哪一天賴清德總統當選人上任之後，以前大家都講說他是臺獨金孫，結果他也曾經在選舉前講臺獨已經是過去式、已經是完成式了，他不要臺獨了，藉此希望2024年1月13號之前中華民國的多數人民可以投票給他，他連臺獨金孫的名義都可以放棄。那一樣，會不會520之後，賴清德總統當選人有可能講說，不然我們來討論看看，2025非核家園是蔡英文的主張，我賴清德不一定要持續。那我們現在是不是應該要超前部署，規劃一下、瞭解一下，如果說核二廠、核三廠要延役的話，應該要做哪些事情、應該要做哪些規範，哪些部分應該要做安全檢視、體檢，來確保這一些電廠能夠持續、永續的為臺灣人民提供安全的電？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委同意嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我可以同意，但是跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，什麼時候開始做？非常好……"],["陳主任委員東陽：不是，我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：務實地來做。"],["陳主任委員東陽：核安會是……"],["洪委員孟楷：美國有59座核電廠都超過40年以上，臺灣目前也就核二廠、核三廠，一個是才剛除役，一個是還在運行，所以要延役的話，核二廠、核三廠最有機會、最有可能，對不對？那是不是現在應該來做，如果說我們現在都討論，再加上……我只請教一件事情，這兩天也有學者專家跳出來說臺灣的發電、台電的能源配比，火力發電、核能發電，然後再生能源，就只有核能發電是成本低於售價，所以是唯一不會虧錢的發電方式，其他火力發電、再生能源都是成本高於售價，所以說賣一度電就是虧，就一定是虧，多賣多虧，是不是這樣？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我跟委員報告，核安會是獨立的安全管制機關，那麼我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為你們是獨立的安全機關，所以本席才用專業的問題告訴你們，你們應該是很持平的、不帶任何政治意識型態，回答不用那麼小心，是就是、不是就是不是，依照你的專業來說明跟回答……"],["陳主任委員東陽：所以剛才我才跟委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：我只請教是不是核能發電的成本是低於售價？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我剛才才跟委員講日本核電廠因為地震所產生的……"],["洪委員孟楷：日本現在有沒有使用核電廠？為什麼？奇怪，本席一直希望是很專業的評估判斷，從頭到尾沒有提到日本，你就硬要扯日本，就是想要remind大家311的日本福島，但重點是連你們的報告，本席都有清楚明白看喔！連你們報告裡面都講說連包括日本排放核廢水的部分也都是幾次的測試、17次的會議，也都認為是在安全監控裡面都無虞，所以本席也沒有懷疑你們所做的報告，所以不用在這個會議場合裡面去影射、恐嚇臺灣人民，重點在於我現在提出的一個數據，美國的狀況怎麼樣、英國的狀況怎麼樣，現在全世界的趨勢，甚至英國首相都講是說能夠發展核能來一勞永逸地降低我們的電價的時候，我們要跟世界背道而馳嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我只是跟委員敘述日本跟臺灣都是地震頻繁的地方，有這個風險，就是這樣，這是一個事實。"],["洪委員孟楷：有這個風險，但是能不能克服？能不能防範、能不能克服？過去40年有沒有因為這樣子，我們的核能安全有打折？"],["陳主任委員東陽：比如說最近的……"],["洪委員孟楷：我只想確認，因為主席已經站起來了，拜託主委，原能會變成核安會，我相信不會因為這樣而喪失了專業跟經濟的技術，包括你的報告裡面都講未來還要持續關注SMR小型核能技術的精進，本席也都同意，但最重要的是今天我們討論的是一個觀念跟立場的問題，如果核安會沒有辦法站在一個安全、公平的立場，提供專業的數據給我們的政府機關、給我們決策人員，還是要看風向、還是要看政治意識型態的話，那核安會關門算了，我講得比較重，但我必須要說，你做的事是專業、是安全、是評估，不是帶有任何政治意識型態，既然核能現在還是相對來講最安全的、可以提供穩定發電的、成本低廉的，你就應該據實地讓決策者知道這樣的數據，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我必須跟委員報告，核安會是一個獨立的……"],["主席：主委，我們是不是私下再跟洪委員來做說明，好不好？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好。"],["主席：時間的關係，不好意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。","再來我們請柯志恩召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-5","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩",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{\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 66.233, \"end\": 66.833, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"綠\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 66.833, \"end\": 66.953, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 66.953, \"end\": 67.173, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 67.173, \"end\": 67.594, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 67.594, \"end\": 68.014, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 68.014, \"end\": 68.134, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 68.134, \"end\": 68.174, \"score\": 0.495}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 68.174, \"end\": 68.254, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 68.254, \"end\": 68.414, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 68.414, \"end\": 68.554, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 68.554, \"end\": 68.574, \"score\": 0.432}, {\"word\": \"聞\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 71.84, \"end\": 75.203, \"text\": \"阿瑪隆說要賜資208億花費6.5億美元買核能以便全天候供應可靠的運作能源\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"阿\", \"start\": 71.84, \"end\": 72.06, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"瑪\"}, {\"word\": \"隆\", \"start\": 72.06, \"end\": 72.22, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 72.22, \"end\": 72.361, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"賜\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 72.361, \"end\": 72.941, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 72.941, \"end\": 73.081, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 73.081, \"end\": 73.161, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"買\"}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 73.161, \"end\": 73.181, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 73.181, \"end\": 73.201, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 73.201, \"end\": 73.241, \"score\": 0.428}, {\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 92.188, \"end\": 92.428, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 92.428, \"end\": 92.688, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 92.688, \"end\": 93.089, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 93.089, \"end\": 93.269, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 93.269, \"end\": 94.29, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 94.29, \"end\": 94.51, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 94.51, \"end\": 94.77, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 94.77, \"end\": 95.17, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"貸\"}, {\"word\": \"款\", \"start\": 95.17, \"end\": 95.811, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 95.811, \"end\": 96.391, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"密\", \"start\": 96.391, \"end\": 96.692, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 96.692, \"end\": 96.912, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 96.912, \"end\": 97.152, 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00:00:01,250\n主席謝謝麻煩請陳主委好有請陳主委\n\n2\n00:00:21,713 --> 00:00:49,182\n主委好核安會第一次的業務報告本席一直希望是說能夠跟我們的部會首長都討論一些觀念性以及政策性的問題因為這才能夠了解國家重大方向以及各部會的態度以及負責任的立場首先本席有看到英國在最近有講說是核能的核電需求大英國要赤字80億促進核能產業的人力主委有看到這新聞嗎是的\n\n3\n00:00:52,022 --> 00:01:08,574\n主委有看到說這兩天也傳出Amazon的這個公司他說要賜資208億買核能發電報導顯示是說用電需求與日劇增目前百分之百綠電不可行請教主委有看到這個新聞嗎\n\n4\n00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,203\n阿瑪隆說要賜資208億花費6.5億美元買核能以便全天候供應可靠的運作能源\n\n5\n00:01:31,908 --> 00:01:39,134\n拜登政府提供15億美元的貸款要讓密西根州一座美國已關閉的核電廠重啟\n\n6\n00:01:46,471 --> 00:02:08,726\n所以我們最近國內在討論沸沸揚揚的就是電價上漲的問題大家會覺得是說能源政策是不是有問題而台電的發電不管是效益不管是成本來做整個這樣配比的一個失衡而造成說連三年已經電價要調漲了而且電價調漲造成什麼是物價的通貨膨脹物價的全面提升\n\n7\n00:02:09,406 --> 00:02:36,022\n所以我們現在也在思考是說能源政策要面對是安全專業合理可靠大家要來共同選擇嗎英國的首相他講是說為什麼他們要赤字80億來做核能因為要去迎來新一代的核能企業不只保障安全維持能源安全還能一勞永逸的降低我們的電費主委有看到嗎是的有沒有感覺很誘人\n\n8\n00:02:37,831 --> 00:02:38,011\n執行委員會主席\n\n9\n00:03:01,824 --> 00:03:12,220\n跟委員報告研議是社會非常關切的議題是那麼這個也是國家能源的政策是那麼\n\n10\n00:03:14,086 --> 00:03:34,382\n在安全專業上以你的部會的角度安全專業上來講國內如果說兩座核電廠核二廠核三廠的研議可不可行專業評估判斷我跟委員報告每一個核電廠就像每一個人的健康情況跟他的過去的運轉的情況\n\n11\n00:03:36,624 --> 00:03:48,608\n就是要個案來看那麼現在現在就是就目前臺電如果要研議技術層面上臺電也必須去檢視他的\n\n12\n00:03:51,325 --> 00:03:53,146\n臺灣最喜歡跟美國比美國現在發電有多少核電廠\n\n13\n00:04:19,721 --> 00:04:48,388\n那時候我提出來請你回去做功課美國現在有多少發電廠核電廠90幾90幾座請教他佔美國全國的總體發電量核能佔美國全體的發電量有多少這個我不是很清楚不是吧主委我兩個禮拜前謝題給你了你現在跟我講你不是很清楚這個我們再去查一下沒有同仁知道嗎\n\n14\n00:04:52,041 --> 00:04:53,492\n幫個忙好不好欸核安會\n\n15\n00:04:56,823 --> 00:05:25,662\n你不覺得這是一個基本常識ABC嗎如果說我們台灣我們會考慮到是說我們的核能佔比佔於我們總體全國的發電有多少那對比美國美國有90幾座核能發電廠佔他們全國的發電有多少我直接告訴你答案你Google一下就知道至少差不多兩成左右啦是的百分之二十是的那請教美國核電廠90幾座裡面有超過百分之十有超過多少比例是超過40年也就是他們有研議的發電廠\n\n16\n00:05:28,064 --> 00:05:28,505\n美國現在歷史最悠久的發電廠使用多久?\n\n17\n00:05:51,806 --> 00:05:52,427\n美國59座發電廠有沒有哪一座不安全\n\n18\n00:06:08,154 --> 00:06:30,138\n這個安不安全那個洪委員我們可以去看沒有美國既然核准他們的發電廠是不是一樣是40年為年限是的是嗎跟我們台灣是一樣嗎那但是他們有59座在要除役之前他們提出申請所以59座通過他們的有關機關的核准認定可以持續研議所以說他們現在59座發電廠都使用超過40年以上\n\n19\n00:06:33,479 --> 00:06:48,755\n那我只請教就我們核安會去做瞭解去做survey美國在檢視的時候要給他們研議有沒有任何的放水應該是沒有那有沒有哪一座發電廠這59座超過40年以上不安全\n\n20\n00:06:50,916 --> 00:07:13,722\n目前沒有但是我跟委員報告所以本席就講是說其實就專業安全的考量來講核電廠如果要持續使用是可以的而且現在美國他們持續在使用是不是這樣子我跟委員報告所以那個是不是可以讓我稍微解釋一下你要跟我解釋什麼好讓我解釋一下一分鐘半分鐘\n\n21\n00:07:16,294 --> 00:07:42,549\n本席答詢時間有限所以不要言不及意好不好來好比如說以日本來講日本能登半島地震今年1月1號主委本席跟你討論美國結果你現在扯到日本那就是言不及意就是答非所問因為是有地震來主委本席再請教因為有地震現在超過企業界的意見領袖跟過半數的民意可能都贊同民進黨的能源政策應該要重新被檢討\n\n22\n00:07:43,590 --> 00:08:00,668\n那之前賴清德總統當選人也有到新竹科學園區去跟企業界的大佬閉門會談但傳出來媒體這邊講是說很多企業界大佬也表達說其實政府應該可以持續發展我們任何的一個能源包括說核能有沒有看到這個媒體\n\n23\n00:08:02,722 --> 00:08:29,975\n好那如果說這樣子賴清德總統當選人520上任之後他的政策會怎麼走不知道但現在有很多企業界大佬在閉門會議的時候都直接當面跟他講是說其實民進黨的非核家園神主牌也不一定一定要抱著不放啊那如果說哪一天賴清德總統當選人上任之後因為他也曾經在選前以前大家都講說他是台獨精選就他在選舉前講是說台獨已經是過去式已經是完成式了他不要台獨了\n\n24\n00:08:31,735 --> 00:08:51,681\n來藉此希望說那時候2024年1月13日之前．中華民國的多數人民可以投票給他他連台獨金孫的名義都可以放棄那一樣會不會520之後賴清德總統當選有可能講說那不然我們來討論看看2025非核家園這是蔡英文的主張我賴清德不一定要\n\n25\n00:08:52,401 --> 00:08:53,361\n主委同意嗎?\n\n26\n00:09:14,949 --> 00:09:37,460\n我可以同意,但是那個...什麼時候開始做?非常好,務實的來做每個有59座核電廠都超過40年以上臺灣目前也就核二廠核三廠在運行當中一個是才剛除役,一個是還在運行所以要研議的話核二廠核三廠最有機會最有可能\n\n27\n00:09:39,190 --> 00:09:47,326\n那是不是現在應該來做如果說我們現在都討論再加上我只請教一件事情大家這兩天也有學者專家跳出來講是說台灣的發電\n\n28\n00:09:50,551 --> 00:10:10,203\n臺電的能源配比,火力發電、核能發電、再生能源就只有核能發電是成本低於售價所以是唯一不會虧錢的發電方式其他火力發電、再生能源都是成本高於售價所以說賣一度電就是虧,就一定是虧,多賣多虧\n\n29\n00:10:13,606 --> 00:10:35,391\n我跟委員報告核安會是獨立的安全管制機關就是因為你們是獨立的安全機關所以本席才用專業的問題告訴你們是說你們應該是很持平的不帶任何政治意識形態回答不用那麼小心是就是不是就是不是依照你的專業來說明跟回答所以剛才我才跟委員講\n\n30\n00:10:39,232 --> 00:11:04,351\n日本核電廠因為地震所產生的這個日本現在有沒有使用核電廠為什麼奇怪本席一直希望是很專業的評估判斷從頭到尾沒有提到日本你就硬要扯日本就是想要讓大家remind大家311的這個日本輔導但重點是連你們的報告本席都有清楚明白看喔連你們報告裡面都講是說連包括說日本排放核\n\n31\n00:11:05,091 --> 00:11:15,571\n和廢水的部分也都是幾次的測試．17次的會議．也都認為是說在安全監控裡面都無虞．所以本時也沒有懷疑你們所做的一個報告．\n\n32\n00:11:16,795 --> 00:11:36,141\n所以不用說在這個會議場合裡面去影射恐嚇台灣人民重點在於是說我現在提出的一個數據美國的狀況怎麼樣英國的狀況怎麼樣現在全世界趨勢甚至英國首相都講是說能夠發展核能來一勞永逸的降低我們的電價的時候\n\n33\n00:11:38,564 --> 00:12:03,778\n我只是跟委員敘述日本跟台灣都是地震頻繁的地方有這個風險有這個風險但是能不能克服能不能防範能不能克服過去40年有沒有因為這樣子我們的核能安全有打折比如說我只想確認因為主席已經站起來了拜託諸位\n\n34\n00:12:05,376 --> 00:12:33,542\n原能會變成核安會我相信不會因為這樣而上市的專業跟經濟的技術包括你的報告裡面都講是說未來還要持續關注SNR小型核能技術的精進本席也都同意但最重要的是今天我們討論的是一個觀念跟立場的問題如果核安會沒有辦法站在一個安全公平的立場\n\n35\n00:12:34,702 --> 00:12:42,023\n提供專業的數據給我們的政府機關給我們決策人員還是要看風向還是要看政治意識形態的話那河岸會關門算了\n\n36\n00:12:43,524 --> 00:12:45,285\n主委我們是不是私下再跟侯委員來做說明好不好時間的關係抱歉\n\n37\n00:13:13,288 --> 00:13:14,341\n好謝謝洪孟楷委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t1250\t主席謝謝麻煩請陳主委好有請陳主委\n21713\t49182\t主委好 核安會第一次的業務報告本席一直希望是說能夠跟我們的部會首長都討論一些觀念性以及政策性的問題因為這才能夠了解國家重大方向以及各部會的態度以及負責任的立場首先本席有看到英國在最近有講說是核能的核電需求大英國要赤字80億促進核能產業的人力主委有看到這新聞嗎是的\n52022\t68574\t主委有看到說這兩天也傳出Amazon的這個公司他說要賜資208億買核能發電報導顯示是說用電需求與日劇增目前百分之百綠電不可行請教主委有看到這個新聞嗎\n71840\t75203\t阿瑪隆說要賜資208億花費6.5億美元買核能以便全天候供應可靠的運作能源\n91908\t99134\t拜登政府提供15億美元的貸款要讓密西根州一座美國已關閉的核電廠重啟\n106471\t128726\t所以我們最近國內在討論沸沸揚揚的就是電價上漲的問題大家會覺得是說能源政策是不是有問題而台電的發電不管是效益不管是成本來做整個這樣配比的一個失衡而造成說連三年已經電價要調漲了而且電價調漲造成什麼是物價的通貨膨脹物價的全面提升\n129406\t156022\t所以我們現在也在思考是說能源政策要面對是安全專業合理可靠大家要來共同選擇嗎英國的首相他講是說為什麼他們要赤字80億來做核能因為要去迎來新一代的核能企業不只保障安全維持能源安全還能一勞永逸的降低我們的電費主委有看到嗎是的有沒有感覺很誘人\n157831\t158011\t執行委員會主席\n181824\t192220\t跟委員報告研議是社會非常關切的議題是那麼這個也是國家能源的政策是那麼\n194086\t214382\t在安全專業上以你的部會的角度安全專業上來講國內如果說兩座核電廠核二廠核三廠的研議可不可行專業評估判斷我跟委員報告每一個核電廠就像每一個人的健康情況跟他的過去的運轉的情況\n216624\t228608\t就是要個案來看那麼現在現在就是就目前臺電如果要研議技術層面上臺電也必須去檢視他的\n231325\t233146\t臺灣最喜歡跟美國比美國現在發電有多少核電廠\n259721\t288388\t那時候我提出來請你回去做功課美國現在有多少發電廠核電廠90幾90幾座請教他佔美國全國的總體發電量核能佔美國全體的發電量有多少這個我不是很清楚不是吧 主委我兩個禮拜前謝題給你了你現在跟我講你不是很清楚這個我們再去查一下沒有同仁知道嗎\n292041\t293492\t幫個忙好不好 欸 核安會\n296823\t325662\t你不覺得這是一個基本常識ABC嗎如果說我們台灣我們會考慮到是說我們的核能佔比佔於我們總體全國的發電有多少那對比美國美國有90幾座核能發電廠佔他們全國的發電有多少我直接告訴你答案你Google一下就知道至少差不多兩成左右啦是的百分之二十是的那請教美國核電廠90幾座裡面有超過百分之十有超過多少比例是超過40年也就是他們有研議的發電廠\n328064\t328505\t美國現在歷史最悠久的發電廠使用多久?\n351806\t352427\t美國59座發電廠有沒有哪一座不安全\n368154\t390138\t這個安不安全那個洪委員我們可以去看沒有美國既然核准他們的發電廠是不是一樣是40年為年限是的是嗎跟我們台灣是一樣嗎那但是他們有59座在要除役之前他們提出申請所以59座通過他們的有關機關的核准認定可以持續研議所以說他們現在59座發電廠都使用超過40年以上\n393479\t408755\t那我只請教就我們核安會去做瞭解去做survey美國在檢視的時候要給他們研議有沒有任何的放水應該是沒有那有沒有哪一座發電廠這59座超過40年以上不安全\n410916\t433722\t目前沒有但是我跟委員報告所以本席就講是說其實就專業安全的考量來講核電廠如果要持續使用是可以的而且現在美國他們持續在使用是不是這樣子我跟委員報告所以那個是不是可以讓我稍微解釋一下你要跟我解釋什麼好讓我解釋一下一分鐘半分鐘\n436294\t462549\t本席答詢時間有限所以不要言不及意好不好來好比如說以日本來講日本能登半島地震今年1月1號主委本席跟你討論美國結果你現在扯到日本那就是言不及意就是答非所問因為是有地震來主委本席再請教因為有地震現在超過企業界的意見領袖跟過半數的民意可能都贊同民進黨的能源政策應該要重新被檢討\n463590\t480668\t那之前賴清德總統當選人也有到新竹科學園區去跟企業界的大佬閉門會談但傳出來媒體這邊講是說很多企業界大佬也表達說其實政府應該可以持續發展我們任何的一個能源包括說核能有沒有看到這個媒體\n482722\t509975\t好那如果說這樣子賴清德總統當選人520上任之後他的政策會怎麼走不知道但現在有很多企業界大佬在閉門會議的時候都直接當面跟他講是說其實民進黨的非核家園神主牌也不一定一定要抱著不放啊那如果說哪一天賴清德總統當選人上任之後因為他也曾經在選前以前大家都講說他是台獨精選就他在選舉前講是說台獨已經是過去式已經是完成式了他不要台獨了\n511735\t531681\t來藉此希望說那時候2024年1月13日之前．中華民國的多數人民可以投票給他他連台獨金孫的名義都可以放棄那一樣會不會520之後賴清德總統當選有可能講說那不然我們來討論看看2025非核家園這是蔡英文的主張我賴清德不一定要\n532401\t533361\t主委同意嗎?\n554949\t577460\t我可以同意,但是那個...什麼時候開始做?非常好,務實的來做每個有59座核電廠都超過40年以上臺灣目前也就核二廠核三廠在運行當中一個是才剛除役,一個是還在運行所以要研議的話核二廠核三廠最有機會最有可能\n579190\t587326\t那是不是現在應該來做如果說我們現在都討論再加上我只請教一件事情大家這兩天也有學者專家跳出來講是說台灣的發電\n590551\t610203\t臺電的能源配比,火力發電、核能發電、再生能源就只有核能發電是成本低於售價所以是唯一不會虧錢的發電方式其他火力發電、再生能源都是成本高於售價所以說賣一度電就是虧,就一定是虧,多賣多虧\n613606\t635391\t我跟委員報告核安會是獨立的安全管制機關就是因為你們是獨立的安全機關所以本席才用專業的問題告訴你們是說你們應該是很持平的不帶任何政治意識形態回答不用那麼小心是就是不是就是不是依照你的專業來說明跟回答所以剛才我才跟委員講\n639232\t664351\t日本核電廠因為地震所產生的這個日本現在有沒有使用核電廠為什麼奇怪本席一直希望是很專業的評估判斷從頭到尾沒有提到日本你就硬要扯日本就是想要讓大家remind大家311的這個日本輔導但重點是連你們的報告本席都有清楚明白看喔連你們報告裡面都講是說連包括說日本排放核\n665091\t675571\t和廢水的部分也都是幾次的測試．17次的會議．也都認為是說在安全監控裡面都無虞．所以本時也沒有懷疑你們所做的一個報告．\n676795\t696141\t所以不用說在這個會議場合裡面去影射恐嚇台灣人民重點在於是說我現在提出的一個數據美國的狀況怎麼樣英國的狀況怎麼樣現在全世界趨勢甚至英國首相都講是說能夠發展核能來一勞永逸的降低我們的電價的時候\n698564\t723778\t我只是跟委員敘述日本跟台灣都是地震頻繁的地方有這個風險有這個風險但是能不能克服能不能防範能不能克服過去40年有沒有因為這樣子我們的核能安全有打折比如說我只想確認因為主席已經站起來了拜託 諸位\n725376\t753542\t原能會變成核安會我相信不會因為這樣而上市的專業跟經濟的技術包括你的報告裡面都講是說未來還要持續關注SNR小型核能技術的精進本席也都同意但最重要的是今天我們討論的是一個觀念跟立場的問題如果核安會沒有辦法站在一個安全公平的立場\n754702\t762023\t提供專業的數據給我們的政府機關給我們決策人員還是要看風向還是要看政治意識形態的話那河岸會關門算了\n763524\t765285\t主委我們是不是私下再跟侯委員來做說明好不好時間的關係抱歉\n793288\t794341\t好 謝謝洪孟楷委員\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳主委好有請陳主委\n主委好 核安會第一次的業務報告本席一直希望是說能夠跟我們的部會首長都討論一些觀念性以及政策性的問題因為這才能夠了解國家重大方向以及各部會的態度以及負責任的立場首先本席有看到英國在最近有講說是核能的核電需求大英國要赤字80億促進核能產業的人力主委有看到這新聞嗎是的\n主委有看到說這兩天也傳出Amazon的這個公司他說要賜資208億買核能發電報導顯示是說用電需求與日劇增目前百分之百綠電不可行請教主委有看到這個新聞嗎\n阿瑪隆說要賜資208億花費6.5億美元買核能以便全天候供應可靠的運作能源\n拜登政府提供15億美元的貸款要讓密西根州一座美國已關閉的核電廠重啟\n所以我們最近國內在討論沸沸揚揚的就是電價上漲的問題大家會覺得是說能源政策是不是有問題而台電的發電不管是效益不管是成本來做整個這樣配比的一個失衡而造成說連三年已經電價要調漲了而且電價調漲造成什麼是物價的通貨膨脹物價的全面提升\n所以我們現在也在思考是說能源政策要面對是安全專業合理可靠大家要來共同選擇嗎英國的首相他講是說為什麼他們要赤字80億來做核能因為要去迎來新一代的核能企業不只保障安全維持能源安全還能一勞永逸的降低我們的電費主委有看到嗎是的有沒有感覺很誘人\n執行委員會主席\n跟委員報告研議是社會非常關切的議題是那麼這個也是國家能源的政策是那麼\n在安全專業上以你的部會的角度安全專業上來講國內如果說兩座核電廠核二廠核三廠的研議可不可行專業評估判斷我跟委員報告每一個核電廠就像每一個人的健康情況跟他的過去的運轉的情況\n就是要個案來看那麼現在現在就是就目前臺電如果要研議技術層面上臺電也必須去檢視他的\n臺灣最喜歡跟美國比美國現在發電有多少核電廠\n那時候我提出來請你回去做功課美國現在有多少發電廠核電廠90幾90幾座請教他佔美國全國的總體發電量核能佔美國全體的發電量有多少這個我不是很清楚不是吧 主委我兩個禮拜前謝題給你了你現在跟我講你不是很清楚這個我們再去查一下沒有同仁知道嗎\n幫個忙好不好 欸 核安會\n你不覺得這是一個基本常識ABC嗎如果說我們台灣我們會考慮到是說我們的核能佔比佔於我們總體全國的發電有多少那對比美國美國有90幾座核能發電廠佔他們全國的發電有多少我直接告訴你答案你Google一下就知道至少差不多兩成左右啦是的百分之二十是的那請教美國核電廠90幾座裡面有超過百分之十有超過多少比例是超過40年也就是他們有研議的發電廠\n美國現在歷史最悠久的發電廠使用多久?\n美國59座發電廠有沒有哪一座不安全\n這個安不安全那個洪委員我們可以去看沒有美國既然核准他們的發電廠是不是一樣是40年為年限是的是嗎跟我們台灣是一樣嗎那但是他們有59座在要除役之前他們提出申請所以59座通過他們的有關機關的核准認定可以持續研議所以說他們現在59座發電廠都使用超過40年以上\n那我只請教就我們核安會去做瞭解去做survey美國在檢視的時候要給他們研議有沒有任何的放水應該是沒有那有沒有哪一座發電廠這59座超過40年以上不安全\n目前沒有但是我跟委員報告所以本席就講是說其實就專業安全的考量來講核電廠如果要持續使用是可以的而且現在美國他們持續在使用是不是這樣子我跟委員報告所以那個是不是可以讓我稍微解釋一下你要跟我解釋什麼好讓我解釋一下一分鐘半分鐘\n本席答詢時間有限所以不要言不及意好不好來好比如說以日本來講日本能登半島地震今年1月1號主委本席跟你討論美國結果你現在扯到日本那就是言不及意就是答非所問因為是有地震來主委本席再請教因為有地震現在超過企業界的意見領袖跟過半數的民意可能都贊同民進黨的能源政策應該要重新被檢討\n那之前賴清德總統當選人也有到新竹科學園區去跟企業界的大佬閉門會談但傳出來媒體這邊講是說很多企業界大佬也表達說其實政府應該可以持續發展我們任何的一個能源包括說核能有沒有看到這個媒體\n好那如果說這樣子賴清德總統當選人520上任之後他的政策會怎麼走不知道但現在有很多企業界大佬在閉門會議的時候都直接當面跟他講是說其實民進黨的非核家園神主牌也不一定一定要抱著不放啊那如果說哪一天賴清德總統當選人上任之後因為他也曾經在選前以前大家都講說他是台獨精選就他在選舉前講是說台獨已經是過去式已經是完成式了他不要台獨了\n來藉此希望說那時候2024年1月13日之前．中華民國的多數人民可以投票給他他連台獨金孫的名義都可以放棄那一樣會不會520之後賴清德總統當選有可能講說那不然我們來討論看看2025非核家園這是蔡英文的主張我賴清德不一定要\n主委同意嗎?\n我可以同意,但是那個...什麼時候開始做?非常好,務實的來做每個有59座核電廠都超過40年以上臺灣目前也就核二廠核三廠在運行當中一個是才剛除役,一個是還在運行所以要研議的話核二廠核三廠最有機會最有可能\n那是不是現在應該來做如果說我們現在都討論再加上我只請教一件事情大家這兩天也有學者專家跳出來講是說台灣的發電\n臺電的能源配比,火力發電、核能發電、再生能源就只有核能發電是成本低於售價所以是唯一不會虧錢的發電方式其他火力發電、再生能源都是成本高於售價所以說賣一度電就是虧,就一定是虧,多賣多虧\n我跟委員報告核安會是獨立的安全管制機關就是因為你們是獨立的安全機關所以本席才用專業的問題告訴你們是說你們應該是很持平的不帶任何政治意識形態回答不用那麼小心是就是不是就是不是依照你的專業來說明跟回答所以剛才我才跟委員講\n日本核電廠因為地震所產生的這個日本現在有沒有使用核電廠為什麼奇怪本席一直希望是很專業的評估判斷從頭到尾沒有提到日本你就硬要扯日本就是想要讓大家remind大家311的這個日本輔導但重點是連你們的報告本席都有清楚明白看喔連你們報告裡面都講是說連包括說日本排放核\n和廢水的部分也都是幾次的測試．17次的會議．也都認為是說在安全監控裡面都無虞．所以本時也沒有懷疑你們所做的一個報告．\n所以不用說在這個會議場合裡面去影射恐嚇台灣人民重點在於是說我現在提出的一個數據美國的狀況怎麼樣英國的狀況怎麼樣現在全世界趨勢甚至英國首相都講是說能夠發展核能來一勞永逸的降低我們的電價的時候\n我只是跟委員敘述日本跟台灣都是地震頻繁的地方有這個風險有這個風險但是能不能克服能不能防範能不能克服過去40年有沒有因為這樣子我們的核能安全有打折比如說我只想確認因為主席已經站起來了拜託 諸位\n原能會變成核安會我相信不會因為這樣而上市的專業跟經濟的技術包括你的報告裡面都講是說未來還要持續關注SNR小型核能技術的精進本席也都同意但最重要的是今天我們討論的是一個觀念跟立場的問題如果核安會沒有辦法站在一個安全公平的立場\n提供專業的數據給我們的政府機關給我們決策人員還是要看風向還是要看政治意識形態的話那河岸會關門算了\n主委我們是不是私下再跟侯委員來做說明好不好時間的關係抱歉\n好 謝謝洪孟楷委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:01.250\n主席謝謝麻煩請陳主委好有請陳主委\n\n00:21.713 --> 00:49.182\n主委好核安會第一次的業務報告本席一直希望是說能夠跟我們的部會首長都討論一些觀念性以及政策性的問題因為這才能夠了解國家重大方向以及各部會的態度以及負責任的立場首先本席有看到英國在最近有講說是核能的核電需求大英國要赤字80億促進核能產業的人力主委有看到這新聞嗎是的\n\n00:52.022 --> 01:08.574\n主委有看到說這兩天也傳出Amazon的這個公司他說要賜資208億買核能發電報導顯示是說用電需求與日劇增目前百分之百綠電不可行請教主委有看到這個新聞嗎\n\n01:11.840 --> 01:15.203\n阿瑪隆說要賜資208億花費6.5億美元買核能以便全天候供應可靠的運作能源\n\n01:31.908 --> 01:39.134\n拜登政府提供15億美元的貸款要讓密西根州一座美國已關閉的核電廠重啟\n\n01:46.471 --> 02:08.726\n所以我們最近國內在討論沸沸揚揚的就是電價上漲的問題大家會覺得是說能源政策是不是有問題而台電的發電不管是效益不管是成本來做整個這樣配比的一個失衡而造成說連三年已經電價要調漲了而且電價調漲造成什麼是物價的通貨膨脹物價的全面提升\n\n02:09.406 --> 02:36.022\n所以我們現在也在思考是說能源政策要面對是安全專業合理可靠大家要來共同選擇嗎英國的首相他講是說為什麼他們要赤字80億來做核能因為要去迎來新一代的核能企業不只保障安全維持能源安全還能一勞永逸的降低我們的電費主委有看到嗎是的有沒有感覺很誘人\n\n02:37.831 --> 02:38.011\n執行委員會主席\n\n03:01.824 --> 03:12.220\n跟委員報告研議是社會非常關切的議題是那麼這個也是國家能源的政策是那麼\n\n03:14.086 --> 03:34.382\n在安全專業上以你的部會的角度安全專業上來講國內如果說兩座核電廠核二廠核三廠的研議可不可行專業評估判斷我跟委員報告每一個核電廠就像每一個人的健康情況跟他的過去的運轉的情況\n\n03:36.624 --> 03:48.608\n就是要個案來看那麼現在現在就是就目前臺電如果要研議技術層面上臺電也必須去檢視他的\n\n03:51.325 --> 03:53.146\n臺灣最喜歡跟美國比美國現在發電有多少核電廠\n\n04:19.721 --> 04:48.388\n那時候我提出來請你回去做功課美國現在有多少發電廠核電廠90幾90幾座請教他佔美國全國的總體發電量核能佔美國全體的發電量有多少這個我不是很清楚不是吧主委我兩個禮拜前謝題給你了你現在跟我講你不是很清楚這個我們再去查一下沒有同仁知道嗎\n\n04:52.041 --> 04:53.492\n幫個忙好不好欸核安會\n\n04:56.823 --> 05:25.662\n你不覺得這是一個基本常識ABC嗎如果說我們台灣我們會考慮到是說我們的核能佔比佔於我們總體全國的發電有多少那對比美國美國有90幾座核能發電廠佔他們全國的發電有多少我直接告訴你答案你Google一下就知道至少差不多兩成左右啦是的百分之二十是的那請教美國核電廠90幾座裡面有超過百分之十有超過多少比例是超過40年也就是他們有研議的發電廠\n\n05:28.064 --> 05:28.505\n美國現在歷史最悠久的發電廠使用多久?\n\n05:51.806 --> 05:52.427\n美國59座發電廠有沒有哪一座不安全\n\n06:08.154 --> 06:30.138\n這個安不安全那個洪委員我們可以去看沒有美國既然核准他們的發電廠是不是一樣是40年為年限是的是嗎跟我們台灣是一樣嗎那但是他們有59座在要除役之前他們提出申請所以59座通過他們的有關機關的核准認定可以持續研議所以說他們現在59座發電廠都使用超過40年以上\n\n06:33.479 --> 06:48.755\n那我只請教就我們核安會去做瞭解去做survey美國在檢視的時候要給他們研議有沒有任何的放水應該是沒有那有沒有哪一座發電廠這59座超過40年以上不安全\n\n06:50.916 --> 07:13.722\n目前沒有但是我跟委員報告所以本席就講是說其實就專業安全的考量來講核電廠如果要持續使用是可以的而且現在美國他們持續在使用是不是這樣子我跟委員報告所以那個是不是可以讓我稍微解釋一下你要跟我解釋什麼好讓我解釋一下一分鐘半分鐘\n\n07:16.294 --> 07:42.549\n本席答詢時間有限所以不要言不及意好不好來好比如說以日本來講日本能登半島地震今年1月1號主委本席跟你討論美國結果你現在扯到日本那就是言不及意就是答非所問因為是有地震來主委本席再請教因為有地震現在超過企業界的意見領袖跟過半數的民意可能都贊同民進黨的能源政策應該要重新被檢討\n\n07:43.590 --> 08:00.668\n那之前賴清德總統當選人也有到新竹科學園區去跟企業界的大佬閉門會談但傳出來媒體這邊講是說很多企業界大佬也表達說其實政府應該可以持續發展我們任何的一個能源包括說核能有沒有看到這個媒體\n\n08:02.722 --> 08:29.975\n好那如果說這樣子賴清德總統當選人520上任之後他的政策會怎麼走不知道但現在有很多企業界大佬在閉門會議的時候都直接當面跟他講是說其實民進黨的非核家園神主牌也不一定一定要抱著不放啊那如果說哪一天賴清德總統當選人上任之後因為他也曾經在選前以前大家都講說他是台獨精選就他在選舉前講是說台獨已經是過去式已經是完成式了他不要台獨了\n\n08:31.735 --> 08:51.681\n來藉此希望說那時候2024年1月13日之前．中華民國的多數人民可以投票給他他連台獨金孫的名義都可以放棄那一樣會不會520之後賴清德總統當選有可能講說那不然我們來討論看看2025非核家園這是蔡英文的主張我賴清德不一定要\n\n08:52.401 --> 08:53.361\n主委同意嗎?\n\n09:14.949 --> 09:37.460\n我可以同意,但是那個...什麼時候開始做?非常好,務實的來做每個有59座核電廠都超過40年以上臺灣目前也就核二廠核三廠在運行當中一個是才剛除役,一個是還在運行所以要研議的話核二廠核三廠最有機會最有可能\n\n09:39.190 --> 09:47.326\n那是不是現在應該來做如果說我們現在都討論再加上我只請教一件事情大家這兩天也有學者專家跳出來講是說台灣的發電\n\n09:50.551 --> 10:10.203\n臺電的能源配比,火力發電、核能發電、再生能源就只有核能發電是成本低於售價所以是唯一不會虧錢的發電方式其他火力發電、再生能源都是成本高於售價所以說賣一度電就是虧,就一定是虧,多賣多虧\n\n10:13.606 --> 10:35.391\n我跟委員報告核安會是獨立的安全管制機關就是因為你們是獨立的安全機關所以本席才用專業的問題告訴你們是說你們應該是很持平的不帶任何政治意識形態回答不用那麼小心是就是不是就是不是依照你的專業來說明跟回答所以剛才我才跟委員講\n\n10:39.232 --> 11:04.351\n日本核電廠因為地震所產生的這個日本現在有沒有使用核電廠為什麼奇怪本席一直希望是很專業的評估判斷從頭到尾沒有提到日本你就硬要扯日本就是想要讓大家remind大家311的這個日本輔導但重點是連你們的報告本席都有清楚明白看喔連你們報告裡面都講是說連包括說日本排放核\n\n11:05.091 --> 11:15.571\n和廢水的部分也都是幾次的測試．17次的會議．也都認為是說在安全監控裡面都無虞．所以本時也沒有懷疑你們所做的一個報告．\n\n11:16.795 --> 11:36.141\n所以不用說在這個會議場合裡面去影射恐嚇台灣人民重點在於是說我現在提出的一個數據美國的狀況怎麼樣英國的狀況怎麼樣現在全世界趨勢甚至英國首相都講是說能夠發展核能來一勞永逸的降低我們的電價的時候\n\n11:38.564 --> 12:03.778\n我只是跟委員敘述日本跟台灣都是地震頻繁的地方有這個風險有這個風險但是能不能克服能不能防範能不能克服過去40年有沒有因為這樣子我們的核能安全有打折比如說我只想確認因為主席已經站起來了拜託諸位\n\n12:05.376 --> 12:33.542\n原能會變成核安會我相信不會因為這樣而上市的專業跟經濟的技術包括你的報告裡面都講是說未來還要持續關注SNR小型核能技術的精進本席也都同意但最重要的是今天我們討論的是一個觀念跟立場的問題如果核安會沒有辦法站在一個安全公平的立場\n\n12:34.702 --> 12:42.023\n提供專業的數據給我們的政府機關給我們決策人員還是要看風向還是要看政治意識形態的話那河岸會關門算了\n\n12:43.524 --> 12:45.285\n主委我們是不是私下再跟侯委員來做說明好不好時間的關係抱歉\n\n13:13.288 --> 13:14.341\n好謝謝洪孟楷委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":1.25,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳主委好有請陳主委"},{"start":21.713,"end":49.182,"text":"主委好 核安會第一次的業務報告本席一直希望是說能夠跟我們的部會首長都討論一些觀念性以及政策性的問題因為這才能夠了解國家重大方向以及各部會的態度以及負責任的立場首先本席有看到英國在最近有講說是核能的核電需求大英國要赤字80億促進核能產業的人力主委有看到這新聞嗎是的"},{"start":52.022,"end":68.574,"text":"主委有看到說這兩天也傳出Amazon的這個公司他說要賜資208億買核能發電報導顯示是說用電需求與日劇增目前百分之百綠電不可行請教主委有看到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":71.84,"end":75.203,"text":"阿瑪隆說要賜資208億花費6.5億美元買核能以便全天候供應可靠的運作能源"},{"start":91.908,"end":99.134,"text":"拜登政府提供15億美元的貸款要讓密西根州一座美國已關閉的核電廠重啟"},{"start":106.471,"end":128.726,"text":"所以我們最近國內在討論沸沸揚揚的就是電價上漲的問題大家會覺得是說能源政策是不是有問題而台電的發電不管是效益不管是成本來做整個這樣配比的一個失衡而造成說連三年已經電價要調漲了而且電價調漲造成什麼是物價的通貨膨脹物價的全面提升"},{"start":129.406,"end":156.022,"text":"所以我們現在也在思考是說能源政策要面對是安全專業合理可靠大家要來共同選擇嗎英國的首相他講是說為什麼他們要赤字80億來做核能因為要去迎來新一代的核能企業不只保障安全維持能源安全還能一勞永逸的降低我們的電費主委有看到嗎是的有沒有感覺很誘人"},{"start":157.831,"end":158.011,"text":"執行委員會主席"},{"start":181.824,"end":192.22,"text":"跟委員報告研議是社會非常關切的議題是那麼這個也是國家能源的政策是那麼"},{"start":194.086,"end":214.382,"text":"在安全專業上以你的部會的角度安全專業上來講國內如果說兩座核電廠核二廠核三廠的研議可不可行專業評估判斷我跟委員報告每一個核電廠就像每一個人的健康情況跟他的過去的運轉的情況"},{"start":216.624,"end":228.608,"text":"就是要個案來看那麼現在現在就是就目前臺電如果要研議技術層面上臺電也必須去檢視他的"},{"start":231.325,"end":233.146,"text":"臺灣最喜歡跟美國比美國現在發電有多少核電廠"},{"start":259.721,"end":288.388,"text":"那時候我提出來請你回去做功課美國現在有多少發電廠核電廠90幾90幾座請教他佔美國全國的總體發電量核能佔美國全體的發電量有多少這個我不是很清楚不是吧 主委我兩個禮拜前謝題給你了你現在跟我講你不是很清楚這個我們再去查一下沒有同仁知道嗎"},{"start":292.041,"end":293.492,"text":"幫個忙好不好 欸 核安會"},{"start":296.823,"end":325.662,"text":"你不覺得這是一個基本常識ABC嗎如果說我們台灣我們會考慮到是說我們的核能佔比佔於我們總體全國的發電有多少那對比美國美國有90幾座核能發電廠佔他們全國的發電有多少我直接告訴你答案你Google一下就知道至少差不多兩成左右啦是的百分之二十是的那請教美國核電廠90幾座裡面有超過百分之十有超過多少比例是超過40年也就是他們有研議的發電廠"},{"start":328.064,"end":328.505,"text":"美國現在歷史最悠久的發電廠使用多久?"},{"start":351.806,"end":352.427,"text":"美國59座發電廠有沒有哪一座不安全"},{"start":368.154,"end":390.138,"text":"這個安不安全那個洪委員我們可以去看沒有美國既然核准他們的發電廠是不是一樣是40年為年限是的是嗎跟我們台灣是一樣嗎那但是他們有59座在要除役之前他們提出申請所以59座通過他們的有關機關的核准認定可以持續研議所以說他們現在59座發電廠都使用超過40年以上"},{"start":393.479,"end":408.755,"text":"那我只請教就我們核安會去做瞭解去做survey美國在檢視的時候要給他們研議有沒有任何的放水應該是沒有那有沒有哪一座發電廠這59座超過40年以上不安全"},{"start":410.916,"end":433.722,"text":"目前沒有但是我跟委員報告所以本席就講是說其實就專業安全的考量來講核電廠如果要持續使用是可以的而且現在美國他們持續在使用是不是這樣子我跟委員報告所以那個是不是可以讓我稍微解釋一下你要跟我解釋什麼好讓我解釋一下一分鐘半分鐘"},{"start":436.294,"end":462.549,"text":"本席答詢時間有限所以不要言不及意好不好來好比如說以日本來講日本能登半島地震今年1月1號主委本席跟你討論美國結果你現在扯到日本那就是言不及意就是答非所問因為是有地震來主委本席再請教因為有地震現在超過企業界的意見領袖跟過半數的民意可能都贊同民進黨的能源政策應該要重新被檢討"},{"start":463.59,"end":480.668,"text":"那之前賴清德總統當選人也有到新竹科學園區去跟企業界的大佬閉門會談但傳出來媒體這邊講是說很多企業界大佬也表達說其實政府應該可以持續發展我們任何的一個能源包括說核能有沒有看到這個媒體"},{"start":482.722,"end":509.975,"text":"好那如果說這樣子賴清德總統當選人520上任之後他的政策會怎麼走不知道但現在有很多企業界大佬在閉門會議的時候都直接當面跟他講是說其實民進黨的非核家園神主牌也不一定一定要抱著不放啊那如果說哪一天賴清德總統當選人上任之後因為他也曾經在選前以前大家都講說他是台獨精選就他在選舉前講是說台獨已經是過去式已經是完成式了他不要台獨了"},{"start":511.735,"end":531.681,"text":"來藉此希望說那時候2024年1月13日之前．中華民國的多數人民可以投票給他他連台獨金孫的名義都可以放棄那一樣會不會520之後賴清德總統當選有可能講說那不然我們來討論看看2025非核家園這是蔡英文的主張我賴清德不一定要"},{"start":532.401,"end":533.361,"text":"主委同意嗎?"},{"start":554.949,"end":577.46,"text":"我可以同意,但是那個...什麼時候開始做?非常好,務實的來做每個有59座核電廠都超過40年以上臺灣目前也就核二廠核三廠在運行當中一個是才剛除役,一個是還在運行所以要研議的話核二廠核三廠最有機會最有可能"},{"start":579.19,"end":587.326,"text":"那是不是現在應該來做如果說我們現在都討論再加上我只請教一件事情大家這兩天也有學者專家跳出來講是說台灣的發電"},{"start":590.551,"end":610.203,"text":"臺電的能源配比,火力發電、核能發電、再生能源就只有核能發電是成本低於售價所以是唯一不會虧錢的發電方式其他火力發電、再生能源都是成本高於售價所以說賣一度電就是虧,就一定是虧,多賣多虧"},{"start":613.606,"end":635.391,"text":"我跟委員報告核安會是獨立的安全管制機關就是因為你們是獨立的安全機關所以本席才用專業的問題告訴你們是說你們應該是很持平的不帶任何政治意識形態回答不用那麼小心是就是不是就是不是依照你的專業來說明跟回答所以剛才我才跟委員講"},{"start":639.232,"end":664.351,"text":"日本核電廠因為地震所產生的這個日本現在有沒有使用核電廠為什麼奇怪本席一直希望是很專業的評估判斷從頭到尾沒有提到日本你就硬要扯日本就是想要讓大家remind大家311的這個日本輔導但重點是連你們的報告本席都有清楚明白看喔連你們報告裡面都講是說連包括說日本排放核"},{"start":665.091,"end":675.571,"text":"和廢水的部分也都是幾次的測試．17次的會議．也都認為是說在安全監控裡面都無虞．所以本時也沒有懷疑你們所做的一個報告．"},{"start":676.795,"end":696.141,"text":"所以不用說在這個會議場合裡面去影射恐嚇台灣人民重點在於是說我現在提出的一個數據美國的狀況怎麼樣英國的狀況怎麼樣現在全世界趨勢甚至英國首相都講是說能夠發展核能來一勞永逸的降低我們的電價的時候"},{"start":698.564,"end":723.778,"text":"我只是跟委員敘述日本跟台灣都是地震頻繁的地方有這個風險有這個風險但是能不能克服能不能防範能不能克服過去40年有沒有因為這樣子我們的核能安全有打折比如說我只想確認因為主席已經站起來了拜託 諸位"},{"start":725.376,"end":753.542,"text":"原能會變成核安會我相信不會因為這樣而上市的專業跟經濟的技術包括你的報告裡面都講是說未來還要持續關注SNR小型核能技術的精進本席也都同意但最重要的是今天我們討論的是一個觀念跟立場的問題如果核安會沒有辦法站在一個安全公平的立場"},{"start":754.702,"end":762.023,"text":"提供專業的數據給我們的政府機關給我們決策人員還是要看風向還是要看政治意識形態的話那河岸會關門算了"},{"start":763.524,"end":765.285,"text":"主委我們是不是私下再跟侯委員來做說明好不好時間的關係抱歉"},{"start":793.288,"end":794.341,"text":"好 謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]}}}}