{"id":150565,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150565","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fc09d97f3151fdf44405764d2ea1c6bb83f090e56da198af8ba9b0039caa7a67a999415d811f7405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:34:00 - 09:44:39","影片長度":"00:10:39","會議時間":"2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進作法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就「出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n三、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案18案（報告事項）。【第18案，如經復議則不予處理】\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-9"},"date":"2024-03-28","duration":639,"end_time":"2024-03-28T09:44:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-28T09:34:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":913,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時34分）有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，最近衛福部是多事之秋，您多擔待。部長請問您還記得2017年在新北的一個虐童案邱小妹妹這個事件嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：200……"],["陳委員昭姿：2017年，當時年僅4歲的邱小妹他過世的時候，他全身都是……"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不是2017，2007……"],["陳委員昭姿：2017，我知道你當時還沒上任部長，但他當時是全身多處的瘀傷，媒體形容他在膝蓋的地方，右方有白骨插出，不過你我都知道就是所謂的開放性骨折，就是被虐成這個樣子，當時這個案件也引起很大很大的討論。","根據衛福部的統計資料，2017年到2020年，有88位孩子因為兒虐致死，其中嚴重虐死是34名，部長，這個數字我們不能把它當數字看，這是人命、這是兒童，而且是被虐死的狀況，這是衛福部的資料。","另外人本基金會也曾接獲很多虐童案的案例，例如在2017年嘉義某私立幼兒園有2歲男童被老師用膠帶綁在椅子上，要不是這個保育員自己把照片上傳……，我實在不知道他的心態是什麼，他自己上傳了，所以後來大家都知道了，不然這個小孩子不可能出聲為自己捍衛權益。另外2021年桃園有個小學生被老師抓起領子重摔在地上，所以這些種種都是被報導過的。","過去保護司司長在接受監察院的約詢時有說到，重大兒虐事件有三成沒有進入服務體系，而且這些小孩子多半是弱小的，他們都在6歲以下。我們知道6歲以下的孩童要進入這個體系其實不是那麼容易，除非他有進入學前教育譬如幼兒園、幼稚園等等，才有機會被通報，然後進入服務體系。但是一直在家裡的小孩因為沒有接觸外面的世界，所以大概只有帶出去外面打預防針或是去看病就醫的時候，才可能有這個機會被通報進入體系。我想請問部長，對於這群孩子有沒有什麼方法可以幫忙呢？特別弱小的孩子、6歲以下的孩子。"],["薛部長瑞元：對於這麼小的小孩子，特別是這些小小孩沒有辦法自我保護，也沒有辦法自我表達的這種能力……"],["陳委員昭姿：也沒辦法進入這個體系，有困難度。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，有一個叫做6歲以下弱勢兒童主動關懷方案……"],["陳委員昭姿：是有那個方案，但是因為監察委員的報告說，能夠進入這個方案裡面只有很少數6歲以下的弱勢兒童，這個涵蓋量很少，你們可以瞭解一下這個報告，所以這個部分要請你們多努力。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，應該是說有一些是沒有通報。"],["陳委員昭姿：對，涵蓋量的數量是小的。"],["薛部長瑞元：要去鼓勵通報。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，通報的問題我等一下再跟部長討論。部長，您知道監察院的王美玉監委在2021年曾提出一份關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告嗎？它是在網路上，但因為量很多，我們辦公室就把它印出來做成這個版本。我想請問部長或在座的衛福部官員，你們看過這份報告嗎？這份報告就是關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告，2021年王美玉監察委員提出的，請問部長知道嗎？在座的有人知道嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道有這一個調查報告，但內容我還沒有去看。"],["陳委員昭姿：這麼厚。如果你們看過這份報告的話，我覺得你們應該會覺得很熟悉，為什麼呢？因為當中有許多內容跟您今天衛福部報告的內容幾乎都是講一樣的事情，也就是說監察院在2021年提出的這個兒少保護安全網的漏洞有哪些？如果衛福部當時有用心看這個報告，並且針對這個漏洞去做一些檢討改進，或許不會發生那麼多悲劇啊！部長，我們來看這個圖左邊的數字，其實這幾年，每年都有兩位數以上的兒虐致死，是兩位數喔！小小的生命來不及長大就離開了，其中未通報的件數在右邊欄位，占率還蠻高的，你看2020年有41%是沒有通報的，沒有通報的筆數是一直居高不下的。部長，您覺得這樣要怎麼解讀呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分其實就是剛剛提到沒有進入體系的，很多都是屬於沒有被通報的，沒有通報的大概有兩類，第一個是在家內、親屬之間的，比方說父母親或者是同居親屬所施虐的；另外一個是像保母部分，基本上發生的可能性、沒有被通報是比較少，除非像這一次的剴剴這個案子……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，您提到保母，上次我們在討論的時候，您同意保母就是所謂的實際關懷者、實際照顧者……"],["薛部長瑞元：對、對、對。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個定義很重要，保母的部分。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以在保母的部分，如果是日托的，小孩子回到家，家長還可以看得到；但如果是全日托的話，就會看不到。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是部長，因為看到這些數字還是很難過嘛！所以基本上我們這個安全網還有很多破洞，我們對兒少的保護還是不足，我想您應該會同意，我們還是要繼續想辦法努力嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：當然、當然、當然，也要鼓勵社會上能夠有更多雞婆的人，對於可疑的案例來通報，不然的話，像家內這一類的就很多會變成黑數。"],["陳委員昭姿：對，大家可以看到通報比率，一直也是居高不下的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，前幾天你們公布，當然剛剛也做一些報告，剴剴受保母虐死的結果報告，裡面有7項重大缺失，你剛剛有唸過，如出養必要性的評估嚴謹度不足、出養前的安置品質沒有檢核機制、社工人員缺乏足夠的教育訓練。其實這幾點王美玉監察委員都提出來了，我一直在想，王監委這份報告在2021年其實對社會安全網做了非常系統性的盤點並指出缺點。我有去對比衛福部的報告跟過去監察委員的報告，關於督導制度、服務品質、社工訓練的部分都提了，其實這些已經有人提出報告了，但是如果當初大家願意用心去瞭解，也相信這樣的報告而去做，其實我們可能還可以避免很多的悲劇。","當然，其中我要特別再提的一點是，其實社工是包山包海的，老實說社工某些時候也是成為脆弱的一群，衛福部也要積極解決這個問題。所以再次強調，部會如果之前能夠多用心一點，其實我們可能可以減少一件或更多件的悲劇。部長，您之前有提到這幾年通報的次數有增加，其實有人說是因為網路可以通報，還有說民眾求救的意願是提高的。我同意通報很重要，但是它不是解方，我引用一位擔任過家防中心的總督導所表示的，強調通報只是簡化問題的本質，讓政府看起來似乎有在做事，但規避了社會結構與資源問題，所有第一線的社工師都知道，通報本身不能夠解決所有的問題。英美國家也表示，如果我們讓社工師都一直花費時間在調查，這不僅讓社工疲於奔命，也讓他們沒有時間去協助那些進入兒保體系真正需要協助的家庭。","整個社會對於社工師的專業是很肯定的，但是他們需要協助的資源也是必要的。衛福部目前是希望訪視率提高，這個沒有錯，但是你要知道他們在第一線遇到哪些困難，比如有些人去訪視卻被拒於門外，這時候公權力怎麼來幫忙呢？如果他們在第一線遇到障礙我們沒有幫他們克服，雖然你們增加訪視率，但是他們又進不了門，那你們就需要去幫忙做一些事，不管是用公權力或是用其他的方式來幫忙他們。","請看一下這個圖，這個圖其實上次我在醫學中心……下面這張圖……保護司有做的，整個經費是往次級預防及初級預防挪動，超過七成，不過跟專家學者及很多第一線工作人員的感覺是不太一樣的，我們在初級預防要做的努力，他們認為在社會安全網中缺席了，當然包括學校教育及輔導諮商體系還有精進空間、有關地方家庭教育中心沒有發揮預防家庭問題的功能、公共衛生體系跟醫療體系欠缺預防角色。部長，其實這跟您我的專長一樣，疾病就是預防重於治療，我們防止小病變成大病，所以這從源頭來處理其實是更好的，能夠有更好的結果，因此我們在整合的部分也是要做一些努力。","最後我想說，期待衛福部的同仁們可以將心比心、責無旁貸，我們來做一個整體的跨科室整合，大家有做到位的就繼續做，沒有做到的就是上緊發條繼續做。如果需要增加經費，我相信衛環組的各位委員能夠瞭解，幫助你們改進，好嗎？就是大家一起來努力，不要再讓這些悲劇繼續發生，好嗎？謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員。","接下來請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":526,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","林淑芬","陳菁徽","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","王正旭","盧縣一","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","羅智強","洪孟楷","李彥秀","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳瑩","劉建國","黃珊珊","楊曜","邱鎮軍","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":355,"meetingDate":["2024-03-28"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進作法」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就「出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北\n市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、處理中華民國113年\n度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案 18 案（報告事項）。【專題報告綜合詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1132102_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"150565","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150565","tool":"pyannote","id":"150565-pyannote"},"job_id":"pmQU8HxF1NO88F36","queued_at":"2024-06-01 17:50:34","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 17:51:18","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150565"},{"time":"2024-06-01 17:51:19","msg":"downloading 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\"是有那個方案但是因為監察委員的報告說能夠進入這個方案裡面只有很少數的6歲以下的弱勢兒童這個涵蓋量很少就是你們可以瞭解一下這個報告所以這個部分才是要請你們多努力這因為是應該是說有一些是沒有通報對涵蓋量是含數是小的要去鼓勵這個通報\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 193.965, \"end\": 194.145, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 194.145, \"end\": 194.365, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 194.365, \"end\": 194.646, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 194.646, \"end\": 194.766, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 194.766, \"end\": 194.906, \"score\": 0.558}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 194.906, \"end\": 195.046, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 195.046, \"end\": 195.126, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 195.126, \"end\": 195.607, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 195.607, \"end\": 195.807, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 195.807, \"end\": 196.047, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 196.047, 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0.925}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"歲\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 201.652, \"end\": 201.793, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 201.793, \"end\": 201.973, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 201.973, \"end\": 202.093, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"弱\", \"start\": 202.093, \"end\": 202.513, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"童\", \"start\": 202.513, \"end\": 202.954, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"涵\", \"start\": 202.954, \"end\": 203.314, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"蓋\"}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 203.314, \"end\": 203.474, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 203.474, \"end\": 203.734, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 203.734, \"end\": 203.935, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 203.935, \"end\": 204.055, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 204.055, \"end\": 204.195, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 204.195, 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\"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 212.703, \"end\": 212.963, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 212.963, \"end\": 213.243, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 213.243, \"end\": 213.363, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 213.363, \"end\": 213.524, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 213.524, \"end\": 213.984, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"涵\", \"start\": 213.984, \"end\": 214.404, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"蓋\"}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 214.404, \"end\": 214.645, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 214.645, \"end\": 214.825, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 214.825, \"end\": 215.506, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 215.506, \"end\": 215.726, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 215.726, \"end\": 216.026, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 216.026, \"end\": 216.166, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 216.166, \"end\": 216.386, \"score\": 0.692}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 216.386, \"end\": 216.707, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"鼓\", \"start\": 216.707, \"end\": 217.007, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"勵\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 217.007, \"end\": 217.027, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"報\"}]}, {\"start\": 219.569, \"end\": 248.359, \"text\": \"通報的問題我等一下再跟部長來做討論部長您知道監察院王美玉監委在2021年曾提出一份關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告嗎它是在網路上但因為量很多我們辦公室就把它這個印出來做成這個版本我想請問部長或在座的這個衛福部官員你們看過這份報告嗎這份報告就是關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告2021年王美玉監察委員請問部長知道嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 219.569, \"end\": 219.909, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 219.909, \"end\": 219.989, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 219.989, \"end\": 220.109, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 220.109, \"end\": 220.209, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 220.209, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 229.933, \"end\": 230.053, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 230.053, \"end\": 230.173, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 230.173, \"end\": 230.353, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 230.353, \"end\": 230.593, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 230.593, \"end\": 230.773, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 230.773, \"end\": 231.153, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 231.153, \"end\": 231.333, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"室\", \"start\": 231.333, \"end\": 231.433, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 231.433, \"end\": 231.573, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 231.573, \"end\": 231.713, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 231.713, \"end\": 232.193, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"印\", \"start\": 232.193, \"end\": 232.393, \"score\": 0.974}, 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{\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 245.818, \"end\": 245.998, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"玉\", \"start\": 245.998, \"end\": 246.458, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 246.458, \"end\": 246.658, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 246.658, \"end\": 247.899, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 247.899, \"end\": 248.219, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 248.219, \"end\": 248.339, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 248.339, \"end\": 248.359, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 249.5, \"end\": 266.018, \"text\": \"我知道有這個調查報告,那內容我沒有去看那如果你們看過這份報告的話,我覺得你們也會覺得很熟悉,為什麼呢?因為當中今天許多內容,跟您今天衛福部報告的內容幾乎都是講一樣的事情\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 249.5, \"end\": 249.72, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 249.72, \"end\": 249.88, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 249.88, \"end\": 250.08, \"score\": 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\"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 619.638, \"end\": 619.658, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,229 --> 00:00:07,397\n陳昭芝委員發言有請薛部長\n\n2\n00:00:17,662 --> 00:00:29,455\n委員好部長早部長最近衛福部多事之秋您多擔待了部長請問您還記得新北一個在2017年的一個虐童案秋小妹妹這個事件嗎\n\n3\n00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:54,085\n2017年當時年僅4歲的邱小妹她被她過世的時候她全身都是201720172017我知道你還沒上任這個部長但是她當時是全身多處的瘀傷那媒體形容說她在膝蓋的地方右方有一個他們用這個白骨插出不過你我都就是所謂的開放性骨折\n\n4\n00:00:54,645 --> 00:01:11,942\n就是被虐成這個樣子當時那個案件也引起很大很大的這個討論那麼根據衛福部的統計資料2017年到2020年大家看看有88位孩子因為兒虐致死其中嚴重的這個虐死是34名\n\n5\n00:01:13,263 --> 00:01:38,711\n部長這個數字我們不能把它當數字看這是人命這是兒童而且是被虐死的這個狀況這個是這個是我讓部長能夠在這是衛福部的資料那另外人本基金會他們也曾經接獲很多這個虐童案的案例例如在2017年嘉義某私立這個幼兒園這個兩歲男童被小孩子用被老師用膠帶綁在椅子上\n\n6\n00:01:40,532 --> 00:02:09,604\n要不是這個保育員自己把照片上傳我實在不知道他的心態是什麼他自己上傳了所以後來大家都知道了不然這個小孩子不可能出生為自己捍衛自己的權益另外2021年桃園有個小學生被老師就是抓起那個領子重摔在地上所以這個種種都是被報導過的那過去保護司這個司長在接受監察院的這個約詢時有說到重大額虐事件有三成\n\n7\n00:02:10,444 --> 00:02:35,557\n沒有進入這個服務體系而且這些小孩子多半是弱小的他們都在6歲以下6歲以下那我們知道6歲以下的孩童其實要進入這個體系不是那麼容易除非說他有進入這個學前教育不如幼兒園、幼稚園等等有機會有機會被這個通報然後進入服務體系但是一直在家裡的小孩他因為沒有接觸外面的世界\n\n8\n00:02:36,337 --> 00:02:50,088\n所以大概只有帶出去外面打預防針或是說去看病就醫的時候才有可能有這個機會被通報進入體系那我想請問部長對於這群孩子有沒有什麼方法可以幫忙呢\n\n9\n00:02:51,832 --> 00:03:12,484\n特別弱小的孩子、六歲以下的孩子對於這麼小孩子的這個特別是這些小小孩沒有辦法自我保護也沒有辦法自我表達的這種能力也沒辦法進入這個體系困難度有一個叫做六歲以下若是兒童主動關懷的方案\n\n10\n00:03:13,965 --> 00:03:37,027\n是有那個方案但是因為監察委員的報告說能夠進入這個方案裡面只有很少數的6歲以下的弱勢兒童這個涵蓋量很少就是你們可以瞭解一下這個報告所以這個部分才是要請你們多努力這因為是應該是說有一些是沒有通報對涵蓋量是含數是小的要去鼓勵這個通報\n\n11\n00:03:39,569 --> 00:04:08,359\n通報的問題我等一下再跟部長來做討論部長您知道監察院王美玉監委在2021年曾提出一份關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告嗎它是在網路上但因為量很多我們辦公室就把它這個印出來做成這個版本我想請問部長或在座的這個衛福部官員你們看過這份報告嗎這份報告就是關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告2021年王美玉監察委員請問部長知道嗎\n\n12\n00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:26,018\n我知道有這個調查報告,那內容我沒有去看那如果你們看過這份報告的話,我覺得你們也會覺得很熟悉,為什麼呢?因為當中今天許多內容,跟您今天衛福部報告的內容幾乎都是講一樣的事情\n\n13\n00:04:26,843 --> 00:04:43,343\n也就是說監察院在2021年提出的這個額下保護安全網的漏洞有哪些如果衛福部當時有用心看這個報告而且針對這個漏洞去做一些檢討改進或許不會發生那麼多悲劇部長\n\n14\n00:04:45,005 --> 00:05:13,334\n我們來看左邊這個數字其實這幾年每年都有兩位數字以上的兒虐致死兩位數字小小生命來不及長大就離開其中為通報的件數在右邊這個藍位戰率還蠻高的你看2020年有41%他是沒有通報的沒有通報的比數是一直居高不下的\n\n15\n00:05:14,494 --> 00:05:34,620\n您覺得這樣怎麼解讀呢?這部分其實就是說剛剛提到沒有進入體系的很多都屬於沒有被通報的那沒有通報的大概是兩類第一個是在家內親屬之間的比如說父母親或者是同居的親屬所家的這一個所撕捏的\n\n16\n00:05:35,620 --> 00:05:57,254\n那另外一個像保姆的這個部分的話基本上它發生的可能性沒有被通報是比較少除非像這一次的凱凱你提到保姆你上次我們在討論的時候你同意保姆是就是所謂的這個實際關懷者嗎這個定義很重要保姆保姆的部分所以在保姆的這個部分的話\n\n17\n00:05:58,034 --> 00:06:19,065\n如果它是日拖的,小孩子回到家,家長可以看得到,但是如果全日拖的話,就會看不到。但是部長,因為看到這些數字還是很難過嘛,所以說基本上我想,基本上我們這個安全網還有很多破洞,我們對兒童的保護還是不足,我想您應該會同意嘛,我們還是要繼續想辦法努力嘛。當然當然。\n\n18\n00:06:20,899 --> 00:06:46,116\n這也要鼓勵社會上能夠有更多饑婆的人對於這個可疑的案例來做這個通報不然的話像說家內這一類的就變成很多就是變成A數通報比率大家可以看到一直也是居高不下的部長前幾天你們公布當然剛剛也做一些報告凱凱秀保母孽死的結果報告裡面有其他\n\n19\n00:06:47,037 --> 00:07:13,606\n重大的缺失你剛才念過出養必要性的評估嚴謹度不足出養前的安置品質沒有檢核機制社工人缺乏足夠的教育訓練然後其實這幾點在王美玉監察委員她都提出來了耶所以我一直在想說王經緯這份報告在2021年其實對社會安全網做了非常系統性的盤點跟指出這個缺點所以我有去對比我有對比就是\n\n20\n00:07:14,606 --> 00:07:40,918\n衛福部的報告跟這一次的就是說過去的這個監察委員的報告關於督導制度服務品質社工訓練其實這個都提了我想說因為這個時間有限其實這個是有人已經提出這個報告了但是如果當初大家願意用心去了解也相信這樣的報告去做其實我們可能還可以避免這個很多的這個悲劇當然其中我要特別再提一點就是說其實社工是包山包海的\n\n21\n00:07:42,759 --> 00:08:08,231\n社工其實老實說某些時候也是成為脆弱的一群那衛福部也要積極解決這個問題所以再次強調部會如果之前能夠多用心一點其實我們可能可以減少一件或更多件的悲劇部長您之前有提到說這幾年通報次數增加其實有人說這個是網路可以通報還有說是求救的意願加民眾是提高的\n\n22\n00:08:09,031 --> 00:08:34,506\n我同意通報很重要但是他不是解方這個是我是引用一位這個擔任過加防中心的總督導表示他說強調通報其實只是簡化問題的本身讓政府看起來似乎是有在做事但規避了這個社會結構的資源問題所以第一線公司、社工事都知道通報本身就是不能夠解決所有的問題那以美國家來說如果我們讓社工事都一直在這個花花時間在調查\n\n23\n00:08:36,027 --> 00:09:03,762\n那這個讓社工皮皮冰冰也讓他們有花時間真正進入需要在兒保體系真正需要協助的這個家庭因為整個社會對於社工師的專業是很肯定的但是他們需要這個協助資源也是必要的那衛福部目前是希望說訪視率提高這個沒有錯但是你要知道他們的訪視率在第一線遇到哪些困難比如說有些人他到訪視被拒於門外那這時候公權力怎麼來幫忙呢\n\n24\n00:09:05,203 --> 00:09:19,336\n如果他們第一線遇到的障礙我們沒有辦法克服,我們增加訪視率,他又進不去那個門內,那我們需要去幫忙做一些不管用空氣或其他的方式來幫忙他們那不好意思看一下這個圖,這個圖其實上次我在醫學中心,下面一張圖,這個當然在這個保護師有做,說整個經費,整個經費是往這個所謂的這個\n\n25\n00:09:27,283 --> 00:09:52,731\n四級預防跟這個基礎的這個初級預防的這個經費是往這邊挪動超過七成不過因為專家學者還有很多第一線的感覺是不太一樣的那我們在初級預防要做的努力還是他們認為是在社會安全中缺席了那當然這個包括我念一下學校教育局輔導諮商體系還有精進的空間有關地方家庭教育中心沒有發揮\n\n26\n00:09:54,091 --> 00:10:17,558\n預防家庭問題的功能還有公共衛生體系跟醫療體系沒有能夠欠缺這個預防角色部長真的是跟您我的專長一樣我們疾病就是在預防重於治療那我們防止小病變成大病這個是從源頭來處理其實是更好能夠去有更好的結果所以我們在整合的部分也是要做一些努力最後我想說期待衛福部的同仁們是不是可以將心比心、責無旁貸\n\n27\n00:10:18,598 --> 00:10:19,658\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n229\t7397\t陳昭芝委員發言有請薛部長\n17662\t29455\t委員好部長早部長最近衛福部多事之秋您多擔待了部長請問您還記得新北一個在2017年的一個虐童案秋小妹妹這個事件嗎\n32270\t54085\t2017年當時年僅4歲的邱小妹她被她過世的時候她全身都是201720172017我知道你還沒上任這個部長但是她當時是全身多處的瘀傷那媒體形容說她在膝蓋的地方右方有一個他們用這個白骨插出不過你我都就是所謂的開放性骨折\n54645\t71942\t就是被虐成這個樣子當時那個案件也引起很大很大的這個討論那麼根據衛福部的統計資料2017年到2020年大家看看有88位孩子因為兒虐致死其中嚴重的這個虐死是34名\n73263\t98711\t部長這個數字我們不能把它當數字看這是人命這是兒童而且是被虐死的這個狀況這個是這個是我讓部長能夠在這是衛福部的資料那另外人本基金會他們也曾經接獲很多這個虐童案的案例例如在2017年嘉義某私立這個幼兒園這個兩歲男童被小孩子用被老師用膠帶綁在椅子上\n100532\t129604\t要不是這個保育員自己把照片上傳我實在不知道他的心態是什麼他自己上傳了所以後來大家都知道了不然這個小孩子不可能出生為自己捍衛自己的權益另外2021年桃園有個小學生被老師就是抓起那個領子重摔在地上所以這個種種都是被報導過的那過去保護司這個司長在接受監察院的這個約詢時有說到重大額虐事件有三成\n130444\t155557\t沒有進入這個服務體系而且這些小孩子多半是弱小的他們都在6歲以下6歲以下那我們知道6歲以下的孩童其實要進入這個體系不是那麼容易除非說他有進入這個學前教育不如幼兒園、幼稚園等等有機會有機會被這個通報然後進入服務體系但是一直在家裡的小孩他因為沒有接觸外面的世界\n156337\t170088\t所以大概只有帶出去外面打預防針或是說去看病就醫的時候才有可能有這個機會被通報進入體系那我想請問部長對於這群孩子有沒有什麼方法可以幫忙呢\n171832\t192484\t特別弱小的孩子、六歲以下的孩子對於這麼小孩子的這個特別是這些小小孩沒有辦法自我保護也沒有辦法自我表達的這種能力也沒辦法進入這個體系困難度有一個叫做六歲以下若是兒童主動關懷的方案\n193965\t217027\t是有那個方案但是因為監察委員的報告說能夠進入這個方案裡面只有很少數的6歲以下的弱勢兒童這個涵蓋量很少就是你們可以瞭解一下這個報告所以這個部分才是要請你們多努力這因為是應該是說有一些是沒有通報對涵蓋量是含數是小的要去鼓勵這個通報\n219569\t248359\t通報的問題我等一下再跟部長來做討論部長您知道監察院王美玉監委在2021年曾提出一份關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告嗎它是在網路上但因為量很多我們辦公室就把它這個印出來做成這個版本我想請問部長或在座的這個衛福部官員你們看過這份報告嗎這份報告就是關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告2021年王美玉監察委員請問部長知道嗎\n249500\t266018\t我知道有這個調查報告,那內容我沒有去看那如果你們看過這份報告的話,我覺得你們也會覺得很熟悉,為什麼呢?因為當中今天許多內容,跟您今天衛福部報告的內容幾乎都是講一樣的事情\n266843\t283343\t也就是說監察院在2021年提出的這個額下保護安全網的漏洞有哪些如果衛福部當時有用心看這個報告而且針對這個漏洞去做一些檢討改進或許不會發生那麼多悲劇部長\n285005\t313334\t我們來看左邊這個數字其實這幾年每年都有兩位數字以上的兒虐致死兩位數字小小生命來不及長大就離開其中為通報的件數在右邊這個藍位戰率還蠻高的你看2020年有41%他是沒有通報的沒有通報的比數是一直居高不下的\n314494\t334620\t您覺得這樣怎麼解讀呢?這部分其實就是說剛剛提到沒有進入體系的很多都屬於沒有被通報的那沒有通報的大概是兩類第一個是在家內親屬之間的比如說父母親或者是同居的親屬所家的這一個所撕捏的\n335620\t357254\t那另外一個像保姆的這個部分的話基本上它發生的可能性沒有被通報是比較少除非像這一次的凱凱你提到保姆你上次我們在討論的時候你同意保姆是就是所謂的這個實際關懷者嗎這個定義很重要保姆保姆的部分所以在保姆的這個部分的話\n358034\t379065\t如果它是日拖的,小孩子回到家,家長可以看得到,但是如果全日拖的話,就會看不到。但是部長,因為看到這些數字還是很難過嘛,所以說基本上我想,基本上我們這個安全網還有很多破洞,我們對兒童的保護還是不足,我想您應該會同意嘛,我們還是要繼續想辦法努力嘛。當然當然。\n380899\t406116\t這也要鼓勵社會上能夠有更多饑婆的人對於這個可疑的案例來做這個通報不然的話像說家內這一類的就變成很多就是變成A數通報比率大家可以看到一直也是居高不下的部長前幾天你們公布當然剛剛也做一些報告凱凱秀保母孽死的結果報告裡面有其他\n407037\t433606\t重大的缺失你剛才念過出養必要性的評估嚴謹度不足出養前的安置品質沒有檢核機制社工人缺乏足夠的教育訓練然後其實這幾點在王美玉監察委員她都提出來了耶所以我一直在想說王經緯這份報告在2021年其實對社會安全網做了非常系統性的盤點跟指出這個缺點所以我有去對比我有對比就是\n434606\t460918\t衛福部的報告跟這一次的就是說過去的這個監察委員的報告關於督導制度服務品質社工訓練其實這個都提了我想說因為這個時間有限其實這個是有人已經提出這個報告了但是如果當初大家願意用心去了解也相信這樣的報告去做其實我們可能還可以避免這個很多的這個悲劇當然其中我要特別再提一點就是說其實社工是包山包海的\n462759\t488231\t社工其實老實說某些時候也是成為脆弱的一群那衛福部也要積極解決這個問題所以再次強調部會如果之前能夠多用心一點其實我們可能可以減少一件或更多件的悲劇部長您之前有提到說這幾年通報次數增加其實有人說這個是網路可以通報還有說是求救的意願加民眾是提高的\n489031\t514506\t我同意通報很重要但是他不是解方這個是我是引用一位這個擔任過加防中心的總督導表示他說強調通報其實只是簡化問題的本身讓政府看起來似乎是有在做事但規避了這個社會結構的資源問題所以第一線公司、社工事都知道通報本身就是不能夠解決所有的問題那以美國家來說如果我們讓社工事都一直在這個花花時間在調查\n516027\t543762\t那這個讓社工皮皮冰冰也讓他們有花時間真正進入需要在兒保體系真正需要協助的這個家庭因為整個社會對於社工師的專業是很肯定的但是他們需要這個協助資源也是必要的那衛福部目前是希望說訪視率提高這個沒有錯但是你要知道他們的訪視率在第一線遇到哪些困難比如說有些人他到訪視被拒於門外那這時候公權力怎麼來幫忙呢\n545203\t559336\t如果他們第一線遇到的障礙我們沒有辦法克服,我們增加訪視率,他又進不去那個門內,那我們需要去幫忙做一些不管用空氣或其他的方式來幫忙他們那不好意思看一下這個圖,這個圖其實上次我在醫學中心,下面一張圖,這個當然在這個保護師有做,說整個經費,整個經費是往這個所謂的這個\n567283\t592731\t四級預防跟這個基礎的這個初級預防的這個經費是往這邊挪動超過七成不過因為專家學者還有很多第一線的感覺是不太一樣的那我們在初級預防要做的努力還是他們認為是在社會安全中缺席了那當然這個包括我念一下學校教育局輔導諮商體系還有精進的空間有關地方家庭教育中心沒有發揮\n594091\t617558\t預防家庭問題的功能還有公共衛生體系跟醫療體系沒有能夠欠缺這個預防角色部長真的是跟您我的專長一樣我們疾病就是在預防重於治療那我們防止小病變成大病這個是從源頭來處理其實是更好能夠去有更好的結果所以我們在整合的部分也是要做一些努力最後我想說期待衛福部的同仁們是不是可以將心比心、責無旁貸\n618598\t619658\t二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告\n","txt":"陳昭芝委員發言有請薛部長\n委員好部長早部長最近衛福部多事之秋您多擔待了部長請問您還記得新北一個在2017年的一個虐童案秋小妹妹這個事件嗎\n2017年當時年僅4歲的邱小妹她被她過世的時候她全身都是201720172017我知道你還沒上任這個部長但是她當時是全身多處的瘀傷那媒體形容說她在膝蓋的地方右方有一個他們用這個白骨插出不過你我都就是所謂的開放性骨折\n就是被虐成這個樣子當時那個案件也引起很大很大的這個討論那麼根據衛福部的統計資料2017年到2020年大家看看有88位孩子因為兒虐致死其中嚴重的這個虐死是34名\n部長這個數字我們不能把它當數字看這是人命這是兒童而且是被虐死的這個狀況這個是這個是我讓部長能夠在這是衛福部的資料那另外人本基金會他們也曾經接獲很多這個虐童案的案例例如在2017年嘉義某私立這個幼兒園這個兩歲男童被小孩子用被老師用膠帶綁在椅子上\n要不是這個保育員自己把照片上傳我實在不知道他的心態是什麼他自己上傳了所以後來大家都知道了不然這個小孩子不可能出生為自己捍衛自己的權益另外2021年桃園有個小學生被老師就是抓起那個領子重摔在地上所以這個種種都是被報導過的那過去保護司這個司長在接受監察院的這個約詢時有說到重大額虐事件有三成\n沒有進入這個服務體系而且這些小孩子多半是弱小的他們都在6歲以下6歲以下那我們知道6歲以下的孩童其實要進入這個體系不是那麼容易除非說他有進入這個學前教育不如幼兒園、幼稚園等等有機會有機會被這個通報然後進入服務體系但是一直在家裡的小孩他因為沒有接觸外面的世界\n所以大概只有帶出去外面打預防針或是說去看病就醫的時候才有可能有這個機會被通報進入體系那我想請問部長對於這群孩子有沒有什麼方法可以幫忙呢\n特別弱小的孩子、六歲以下的孩子對於這麼小孩子的這個特別是這些小小孩沒有辦法自我保護也沒有辦法自我表達的這種能力也沒辦法進入這個體系困難度有一個叫做六歲以下若是兒童主動關懷的方案\n是有那個方案但是因為監察委員的報告說能夠進入這個方案裡面只有很少數的6歲以下的弱勢兒童這個涵蓋量很少就是你們可以瞭解一下這個報告所以這個部分才是要請你們多努力這因為是應該是說有一些是沒有通報對涵蓋量是含數是小的要去鼓勵這個通報\n通報的問題我等一下再跟部長來做討論部長您知道監察院王美玉監委在2021年曾提出一份關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告嗎它是在網路上但因為量很多我們辦公室就把它這個印出來做成這個版本我想請問部長或在座的這個衛福部官員你們看過這份報告嗎這份報告就是關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告2021年王美玉監察委員請問部長知道嗎\n我知道有這個調查報告,那內容我沒有去看那如果你們看過這份報告的話,我覺得你們也會覺得很熟悉,為什麼呢?因為當中今天許多內容,跟您今天衛福部報告的內容幾乎都是講一樣的事情\n也就是說監察院在2021年提出的這個額下保護安全網的漏洞有哪些如果衛福部當時有用心看這個報告而且針對這個漏洞去做一些檢討改進或許不會發生那麼多悲劇部長\n我們來看左邊這個數字其實這幾年每年都有兩位數字以上的兒虐致死兩位數字小小生命來不及長大就離開其中為通報的件數在右邊這個藍位戰率還蠻高的你看2020年有41%他是沒有通報的沒有通報的比數是一直居高不下的\n您覺得這樣怎麼解讀呢?這部分其實就是說剛剛提到沒有進入體系的很多都屬於沒有被通報的那沒有通報的大概是兩類第一個是在家內親屬之間的比如說父母親或者是同居的親屬所家的這一個所撕捏的\n那另外一個像保姆的這個部分的話基本上它發生的可能性沒有被通報是比較少除非像這一次的凱凱你提到保姆你上次我們在討論的時候你同意保姆是就是所謂的這個實際關懷者嗎這個定義很重要保姆保姆的部分所以在保姆的這個部分的話\n如果它是日拖的,小孩子回到家,家長可以看得到,但是如果全日拖的話,就會看不到。但是部長,因為看到這些數字還是很難過嘛,所以說基本上我想,基本上我們這個安全網還有很多破洞,我們對兒童的保護還是不足,我想您應該會同意嘛,我們還是要繼續想辦法努力嘛。當然當然。\n這也要鼓勵社會上能夠有更多饑婆的人對於這個可疑的案例來做這個通報不然的話像說家內這一類的就變成很多就是變成A數通報比率大家可以看到一直也是居高不下的部長前幾天你們公布當然剛剛也做一些報告凱凱秀保母孽死的結果報告裡面有其他\n重大的缺失你剛才念過出養必要性的評估嚴謹度不足出養前的安置品質沒有檢核機制社工人缺乏足夠的教育訓練然後其實這幾點在王美玉監察委員她都提出來了耶所以我一直在想說王經緯這份報告在2021年其實對社會安全網做了非常系統性的盤點跟指出這個缺點所以我有去對比我有對比就是\n衛福部的報告跟這一次的就是說過去的這個監察委員的報告關於督導制度服務品質社工訓練其實這個都提了我想說因為這個時間有限其實這個是有人已經提出這個報告了但是如果當初大家願意用心去了解也相信這樣的報告去做其實我們可能還可以避免這個很多的這個悲劇當然其中我要特別再提一點就是說其實社工是包山包海的\n社工其實老實說某些時候也是成為脆弱的一群那衛福部也要積極解決這個問題所以再次強調部會如果之前能夠多用心一點其實我們可能可以減少一件或更多件的悲劇部長您之前有提到說這幾年通報次數增加其實有人說這個是網路可以通報還有說是求救的意願加民眾是提高的\n我同意通報很重要但是他不是解方這個是我是引用一位這個擔任過加防中心的總督導表示他說強調通報其實只是簡化問題的本身讓政府看起來似乎是有在做事但規避了這個社會結構的資源問題所以第一線公司、社工事都知道通報本身就是不能夠解決所有的問題那以美國家來說如果我們讓社工事都一直在這個花花時間在調查\n那這個讓社工皮皮冰冰也讓他們有花時間真正進入需要在兒保體系真正需要協助的這個家庭因為整個社會對於社工師的專業是很肯定的但是他們需要這個協助資源也是必要的那衛福部目前是希望說訪視率提高這個沒有錯但是你要知道他們的訪視率在第一線遇到哪些困難比如說有些人他到訪視被拒於門外那這時候公權力怎麼來幫忙呢\n如果他們第一線遇到的障礙我們沒有辦法克服,我們增加訪視率,他又進不去那個門內,那我們需要去幫忙做一些不管用空氣或其他的方式來幫忙他們那不好意思看一下這個圖,這個圖其實上次我在醫學中心,下面一張圖,這個當然在這個保護師有做,說整個經費,整個經費是往這個所謂的這個\n四級預防跟這個基礎的這個初級預防的這個經費是往這邊挪動超過七成不過因為專家學者還有很多第一線的感覺是不太一樣的那我們在初級預防要做的努力還是他們認為是在社會安全中缺席了那當然這個包括我念一下學校教育局輔導諮商體系還有精進的空間有關地方家庭教育中心沒有發揮\n預防家庭問題的功能還有公共衛生體系跟醫療體系沒有能夠欠缺這個預防角色部長真的是跟您我的專長一樣我們疾病就是在預防重於治療那我們防止小病變成大病這個是從源頭來處理其實是更好能夠去有更好的結果所以我們在整合的部分也是要做一些努力最後我想說期待衛福部的同仁們是不是可以將心比心、責無旁貸\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.229 --> 00:07.397\n陳昭芝委員發言有請薛部長\n\n00:17.662 --> 00:29.455\n委員好部長早部長最近衛福部多事之秋您多擔待了部長請問您還記得新北一個在2017年的一個虐童案秋小妹妹這個事件嗎\n\n00:32.270 --> 00:54.085\n2017年當時年僅4歲的邱小妹她被她過世的時候她全身都是201720172017我知道你還沒上任這個部長但是她當時是全身多處的瘀傷那媒體形容說她在膝蓋的地方右方有一個他們用這個白骨插出不過你我都就是所謂的開放性骨折\n\n00:54.645 --> 01:11.942\n就是被虐成這個樣子當時那個案件也引起很大很大的這個討論那麼根據衛福部的統計資料2017年到2020年大家看看有88位孩子因為兒虐致死其中嚴重的這個虐死是34名\n\n01:13.263 --> 01:38.711\n部長這個數字我們不能把它當數字看這是人命這是兒童而且是被虐死的這個狀況這個是這個是我讓部長能夠在這是衛福部的資料那另外人本基金會他們也曾經接獲很多這個虐童案的案例例如在2017年嘉義某私立這個幼兒園這個兩歲男童被小孩子用被老師用膠帶綁在椅子上\n\n01:40.532 --> 02:09.604\n要不是這個保育員自己把照片上傳我實在不知道他的心態是什麼他自己上傳了所以後來大家都知道了不然這個小孩子不可能出生為自己捍衛自己的權益另外2021年桃園有個小學生被老師就是抓起那個領子重摔在地上所以這個種種都是被報導過的那過去保護司這個司長在接受監察院的這個約詢時有說到重大額虐事件有三成\n\n02:10.444 --> 02:35.557\n沒有進入這個服務體系而且這些小孩子多半是弱小的他們都在6歲以下6歲以下那我們知道6歲以下的孩童其實要進入這個體系不是那麼容易除非說他有進入這個學前教育不如幼兒園、幼稚園等等有機會有機會被這個通報然後進入服務體系但是一直在家裡的小孩他因為沒有接觸外面的世界\n\n02:36.337 --> 02:50.088\n所以大概只有帶出去外面打預防針或是說去看病就醫的時候才有可能有這個機會被通報進入體系那我想請問部長對於這群孩子有沒有什麼方法可以幫忙呢\n\n02:51.832 --> 03:12.484\n特別弱小的孩子、六歲以下的孩子對於這麼小孩子的這個特別是這些小小孩沒有辦法自我保護也沒有辦法自我表達的這種能力也沒辦法進入這個體系困難度有一個叫做六歲以下若是兒童主動關懷的方案\n\n03:13.965 --> 03:37.027\n是有那個方案但是因為監察委員的報告說能夠進入這個方案裡面只有很少數的6歲以下的弱勢兒童這個涵蓋量很少就是你們可以瞭解一下這個報告所以這個部分才是要請你們多努力這因為是應該是說有一些是沒有通報對涵蓋量是含數是小的要去鼓勵這個通報\n\n03:39.569 --> 04:08.359\n通報的問題我等一下再跟部長來做討論部長您知道監察院王美玉監委在2021年曾提出一份關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告嗎它是在網路上但因為量很多我們辦公室就把它這個印出來做成這個版本我想請問部長或在座的這個衛福部官員你們看過這份報告嗎這份報告就是關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告2021年王美玉監察委員請問部長知道嗎\n\n04:09.500 --> 04:26.018\n我知道有這個調查報告,那內容我沒有去看那如果你們看過這份報告的話,我覺得你們也會覺得很熟悉,為什麼呢?因為當中今天許多內容,跟您今天衛福部報告的內容幾乎都是講一樣的事情\n\n04:26.843 --> 04:43.343\n也就是說監察院在2021年提出的這個額下保護安全網的漏洞有哪些如果衛福部當時有用心看這個報告而且針對這個漏洞去做一些檢討改進或許不會發生那麼多悲劇部長\n\n04:45.005 --> 05:13.334\n我們來看左邊這個數字其實這幾年每年都有兩位數字以上的兒虐致死兩位數字小小生命來不及長大就離開其中為通報的件數在右邊這個藍位戰率還蠻高的你看2020年有41%他是沒有通報的沒有通報的比數是一直居高不下的\n\n05:14.494 --> 05:34.620\n您覺得這樣怎麼解讀呢?這部分其實就是說剛剛提到沒有進入體系的很多都屬於沒有被通報的那沒有通報的大概是兩類第一個是在家內親屬之間的比如說父母親或者是同居的親屬所家的這一個所撕捏的\n\n05:35.620 --> 05:57.254\n那另外一個像保姆的這個部分的話基本上它發生的可能性沒有被通報是比較少除非像這一次的凱凱你提到保姆你上次我們在討論的時候你同意保姆是就是所謂的這個實際關懷者嗎這個定義很重要保姆保姆的部分所以在保姆的這個部分的話\n\n05:58.034 --> 06:19.065\n如果它是日拖的,小孩子回到家,家長可以看得到,但是如果全日拖的話,就會看不到。但是部長,因為看到這些數字還是很難過嘛,所以說基本上我想,基本上我們這個安全網還有很多破洞,我們對兒童的保護還是不足,我想您應該會同意嘛,我們還是要繼續想辦法努力嘛。當然當然。\n\n06:20.899 --> 06:46.116\n這也要鼓勵社會上能夠有更多饑婆的人對於這個可疑的案例來做這個通報不然的話像說家內這一類的就變成很多就是變成A數通報比率大家可以看到一直也是居高不下的部長前幾天你們公布當然剛剛也做一些報告凱凱秀保母孽死的結果報告裡面有其他\n\n06:47.037 --> 07:13.606\n重大的缺失你剛才念過出養必要性的評估嚴謹度不足出養前的安置品質沒有檢核機制社工人缺乏足夠的教育訓練然後其實這幾點在王美玉監察委員她都提出來了耶所以我一直在想說王經緯這份報告在2021年其實對社會安全網做了非常系統性的盤點跟指出這個缺點所以我有去對比我有對比就是\n\n07:14.606 --> 07:40.918\n衛福部的報告跟這一次的就是說過去的這個監察委員的報告關於督導制度服務品質社工訓練其實這個都提了我想說因為這個時間有限其實這個是有人已經提出這個報告了但是如果當初大家願意用心去了解也相信這樣的報告去做其實我們可能還可以避免這個很多的這個悲劇當然其中我要特別再提一點就是說其實社工是包山包海的\n\n07:42.759 --> 08:08.231\n社工其實老實說某些時候也是成為脆弱的一群那衛福部也要積極解決這個問題所以再次強調部會如果之前能夠多用心一點其實我們可能可以減少一件或更多件的悲劇部長您之前有提到說這幾年通報次數增加其實有人說這個是網路可以通報還有說是求救的意願加民眾是提高的\n\n08:09.031 --> 08:34.506\n我同意通報很重要但是他不是解方這個是我是引用一位這個擔任過加防中心的總督導表示他說強調通報其實只是簡化問題的本身讓政府看起來似乎是有在做事但規避了這個社會結構的資源問題所以第一線公司、社工事都知道通報本身就是不能夠解決所有的問題那以美國家來說如果我們讓社工事都一直在這個花花時間在調查\n\n08:36.027 --> 09:03.762\n那這個讓社工皮皮冰冰也讓他們有花時間真正進入需要在兒保體系真正需要協助的這個家庭因為整個社會對於社工師的專業是很肯定的但是他們需要這個協助資源也是必要的那衛福部目前是希望說訪視率提高這個沒有錯但是你要知道他們的訪視率在第一線遇到哪些困難比如說有些人他到訪視被拒於門外那這時候公權力怎麼來幫忙呢\n\n09:05.203 --> 09:19.336\n如果他們第一線遇到的障礙我們沒有辦法克服,我們增加訪視率,他又進不去那個門內,那我們需要去幫忙做一些不管用空氣或其他的方式來幫忙他們那不好意思看一下這個圖,這個圖其實上次我在醫學中心,下面一張圖,這個當然在這個保護師有做,說整個經費,整個經費是往這個所謂的這個\n\n09:27.283 --> 09:52.731\n四級預防跟這個基礎的這個初級預防的這個經費是往這邊挪動超過七成不過因為專家學者還有很多第一線的感覺是不太一樣的那我們在初級預防要做的努力還是他們認為是在社會安全中缺席了那當然這個包括我念一下學校教育局輔導諮商體系還有精進的空間有關地方家庭教育中心沒有發揮\n\n09:54.091 --> 10:17.558\n預防家庭問題的功能還有公共衛生體系跟醫療體系沒有能夠欠缺這個預防角色部長真的是跟您我的專長一樣我們疾病就是在預防重於治療那我們防止小病變成大病這個是從源頭來處理其實是更好能夠去有更好的結果所以我們在整合的部分也是要做一些努力最後我想說期待衛福部的同仁們是不是可以將心比心、責無旁貸\n\n10:18.598 --> 10:19.658\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.229,"end":7.397,"text":"陳昭芝委員發言有請薛部長"},{"start":17.662,"end":29.455,"text":"委員好部長早部長最近衛福部多事之秋您多擔待了部長請問您還記得新北一個在2017年的一個虐童案秋小妹妹這個事件嗎"},{"start":32.27,"end":54.085,"text":"2017年當時年僅4歲的邱小妹她被她過世的時候她全身都是201720172017我知道你還沒上任這個部長但是她當時是全身多處的瘀傷那媒體形容說她在膝蓋的地方右方有一個他們用這個白骨插出不過你我都就是所謂的開放性骨折"},{"start":54.645,"end":71.942,"text":"就是被虐成這個樣子當時那個案件也引起很大很大的這個討論那麼根據衛福部的統計資料2017年到2020年大家看看有88位孩子因為兒虐致死其中嚴重的這個虐死是34名"},{"start":73.263,"end":98.711,"text":"部長這個數字我們不能把它當數字看這是人命這是兒童而且是被虐死的這個狀況這個是這個是我讓部長能夠在這是衛福部的資料那另外人本基金會他們也曾經接獲很多這個虐童案的案例例如在2017年嘉義某私立這個幼兒園這個兩歲男童被小孩子用被老師用膠帶綁在椅子上"},{"start":100.532,"end":129.604,"text":"要不是這個保育員自己把照片上傳我實在不知道他的心態是什麼他自己上傳了所以後來大家都知道了不然這個小孩子不可能出生為自己捍衛自己的權益另外2021年桃園有個小學生被老師就是抓起那個領子重摔在地上所以這個種種都是被報導過的那過去保護司這個司長在接受監察院的這個約詢時有說到重大額虐事件有三成"},{"start":130.444,"end":155.557,"text":"沒有進入這個服務體系而且這些小孩子多半是弱小的他們都在6歲以下6歲以下那我們知道6歲以下的孩童其實要進入這個體系不是那麼容易除非說他有進入這個學前教育不如幼兒園、幼稚園等等有機會有機會被這個通報然後進入服務體系但是一直在家裡的小孩他因為沒有接觸外面的世界"},{"start":156.337,"end":170.088,"text":"所以大概只有帶出去外面打預防針或是說去看病就醫的時候才有可能有這個機會被通報進入體系那我想請問部長對於這群孩子有沒有什麼方法可以幫忙呢"},{"start":171.832,"end":192.484,"text":"特別弱小的孩子、六歲以下的孩子對於這麼小孩子的這個特別是這些小小孩沒有辦法自我保護也沒有辦法自我表達的這種能力也沒辦法進入這個體系困難度有一個叫做六歲以下若是兒童主動關懷的方案"},{"start":193.965,"end":217.027,"text":"是有那個方案但是因為監察委員的報告說能夠進入這個方案裡面只有很少數的6歲以下的弱勢兒童這個涵蓋量很少就是你們可以瞭解一下這個報告所以這個部分才是要請你們多努力這因為是應該是說有一些是沒有通報對涵蓋量是含數是小的要去鼓勵這個通報"},{"start":219.569,"end":248.359,"text":"通報的問題我等一下再跟部長來做討論部長您知道監察院王美玉監委在2021年曾提出一份關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告嗎它是在網路上但因為量很多我們辦公室就把它這個印出來做成這個版本我想請問部長或在座的這個衛福部官員你們看過這份報告嗎這份報告就是關於兒少保護安全網的調查報告2021年王美玉監察委員請問部長知道嗎"},{"start":249.5,"end":266.018,"text":"我知道有這個調查報告,那內容我沒有去看那如果你們看過這份報告的話,我覺得你們也會覺得很熟悉,為什麼呢?因為當中今天許多內容,跟您今天衛福部報告的內容幾乎都是講一樣的事情"},{"start":266.843,"end":283.343,"text":"也就是說監察院在2021年提出的這個額下保護安全網的漏洞有哪些如果衛福部當時有用心看這個報告而且針對這個漏洞去做一些檢討改進或許不會發生那麼多悲劇部長"},{"start":285.005,"end":313.334,"text":"我們來看左邊這個數字其實這幾年每年都有兩位數字以上的兒虐致死兩位數字小小生命來不及長大就離開其中為通報的件數在右邊這個藍位戰率還蠻高的你看2020年有41%他是沒有通報的沒有通報的比數是一直居高不下的"},{"start":314.494,"end":334.62,"text":"您覺得這樣怎麼解讀呢?這部分其實就是說剛剛提到沒有進入體系的很多都屬於沒有被通報的那沒有通報的大概是兩類第一個是在家內親屬之間的比如說父母親或者是同居的親屬所家的這一個所撕捏的"},{"start":335.62,"end":357.254,"text":"那另外一個像保姆的這個部分的話基本上它發生的可能性沒有被通報是比較少除非像這一次的凱凱你提到保姆你上次我們在討論的時候你同意保姆是就是所謂的這個實際關懷者嗎這個定義很重要保姆保姆的部分所以在保姆的這個部分的話"},{"start":358.034,"end":379.065,"text":"如果它是日拖的,小孩子回到家,家長可以看得到,但是如果全日拖的話,就會看不到。但是部長,因為看到這些數字還是很難過嘛,所以說基本上我想,基本上我們這個安全網還有很多破洞,我們對兒童的保護還是不足,我想您應該會同意嘛,我們還是要繼續想辦法努力嘛。當然當然。"},{"start":380.899,"end":406.116,"text":"這也要鼓勵社會上能夠有更多饑婆的人對於這個可疑的案例來做這個通報不然的話像說家內這一類的就變成很多就是變成A數通報比率大家可以看到一直也是居高不下的部長前幾天你們公布當然剛剛也做一些報告凱凱秀保母孽死的結果報告裡面有其他"},{"start":407.037,"end":433.606,"text":"重大的缺失你剛才念過出養必要性的評估嚴謹度不足出養前的安置品質沒有檢核機制社工人缺乏足夠的教育訓練然後其實這幾點在王美玉監察委員她都提出來了耶所以我一直在想說王經緯這份報告在2021年其實對社會安全網做了非常系統性的盤點跟指出這個缺點所以我有去對比我有對比就是"},{"start":434.606,"end":460.918,"text":"衛福部的報告跟這一次的就是說過去的這個監察委員的報告關於督導制度服務品質社工訓練其實這個都提了我想說因為這個時間有限其實這個是有人已經提出這個報告了但是如果當初大家願意用心去了解也相信這樣的報告去做其實我們可能還可以避免這個很多的這個悲劇當然其中我要特別再提一點就是說其實社工是包山包海的"},{"start":462.759,"end":488.231,"text":"社工其實老實說某些時候也是成為脆弱的一群那衛福部也要積極解決這個問題所以再次強調部會如果之前能夠多用心一點其實我們可能可以減少一件或更多件的悲劇部長您之前有提到說這幾年通報次數增加其實有人說這個是網路可以通報還有說是求救的意願加民眾是提高的"},{"start":489.031,"end":514.506,"text":"我同意通報很重要但是他不是解方這個是我是引用一位這個擔任過加防中心的總督導表示他說強調通報其實只是簡化問題的本身讓政府看起來似乎是有在做事但規避了這個社會結構的資源問題所以第一線公司、社工事都知道通報本身就是不能夠解決所有的問題那以美國家來說如果我們讓社工事都一直在這個花花時間在調查"},{"start":516.027,"end":543.762,"text":"那這個讓社工皮皮冰冰也讓他們有花時間真正進入需要在兒保體系真正需要協助的這個家庭因為整個社會對於社工師的專業是很肯定的但是他們需要這個協助資源也是必要的那衛福部目前是希望說訪視率提高這個沒有錯但是你要知道他們的訪視率在第一線遇到哪些困難比如說有些人他到訪視被拒於門外那這時候公權力怎麼來幫忙呢"},{"start":545.203,"end":559.336,"text":"如果他們第一線遇到的障礙我們沒有辦法克服,我們增加訪視率,他又進不去那個門內,那我們需要去幫忙做一些不管用空氣或其他的方式來幫忙他們那不好意思看一下這個圖,這個圖其實上次我在醫學中心,下面一張圖,這個當然在這個保護師有做,說整個經費,整個經費是往這個所謂的這個"},{"start":567.283,"end":592.731,"text":"四級預防跟這個基礎的這個初級預防的這個經費是往這邊挪動超過七成不過因為專家學者還有很多第一線的感覺是不太一樣的那我們在初級預防要做的努力還是他們認為是在社會安全中缺席了那當然這個包括我念一下學校教育局輔導諮商體系還有精進的空間有關地方家庭教育中心沒有發揮"},{"start":594.091,"end":617.558,"text":"預防家庭問題的功能還有公共衛生體系跟醫療體系沒有能夠欠缺這個預防角色部長真的是跟您我的專長一樣我們疾病就是在預防重於治療那我們防止小病變成大病這個是從源頭來處理其實是更好能夠去有更好的結果所以我們在整合的部分也是要做一些努力最後我想說期待衛福部的同仁們是不是可以將心比心、責無旁貸"},{"start":618.598,"end":619.658,"text":"二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告"}]}}}}