{"id":150578,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150578","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fc09d97f3151fdf1840933d050bb0a5b83f090e56da198af8ba9b0039caa7a60251c279eccb29ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"09:44:44 - 10:00:14","影片長度":"00:15:30","會議時間":"2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進作法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就「出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n三、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案18案（報告事項）。【第18案，如經復議則不予處理】\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-9"},"date":"2024-03-28","duration":930,"end_time":"2024-03-28T10:00:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-28T09:44:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":951,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（9時44分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天的這個議題很重要，不過還有更緊急的事情，就是寶林茶室的重大食安問題要就教於你，你知道現在到底有幾個個案、幾個死亡、幾個在加護病房嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前正式有通報的大概有13位，但是昨天晚上還有今天早上又多了1位是在臺南的。"],["林委員淑芬：我代替所有臺灣的消費者來這裡講一句話，我看到這些新聞、重大的食物中毒事件，對我們來講，我覺得太冤枉了，對人民來講，我們每一個看到這些死亡和重傷的人，都覺得太冤枉了。再來，我還有一個很大的感觸是，為什麼這麼重大的食安中毒事件，竟然是透過媒體爆料啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，這個還是有通報系統，都有……"],["林委員淑芬：我告訴你，整個案件，現在的13例有幾例是看到新聞台才自己主動通報？哪幾例是在新聞露出，26號以後才通報？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個用時間去切是不太對的，但都是醫院來通報的。"],["林委員淑芬：不是，這個當然是，因為包括後面自己主動來通報的，都是說他是看新聞才知道的，然後包括醫院都說他們是看到新聞以後才回溯通報。第一例是因為死亡的友人3月25號的晚上、半夜將近10點……然後新聞露出說因為去遠百的寶林茶室用餐，急救後回天乏術，這是在25號的半夜，然後26號所有的新聞才露出，很多人看到這個新聞露出以後才說他的症狀也是。我的意思是，如果你沒有看到這個新聞露出……3月24號新北市、臺北市政府都接獲通報了，24號地方政府都接獲通報了，因為死亡的個案有通報上去嘛！而且那個死亡個案的友人很清楚地知道，他們是去遠百吃了寶林的素食粿仔條之後馬上有急重症出現，所以他個人很清楚，靠著這個人很強的危機意識，通報了市政府，然後新北市才通報臺北市。但我要講的是，這個都建立在這一個人……"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，那個是醫院通報的。"],["林委員淑芬：我知道，好，那沒關係。我現在要告訴你的是，現在是看新聞才知道，很多人主動通報是看新聞的，如果不是看這個新聞的話，每一個個案在醫院裡面，自己上吐下瀉，然後是腸胃性的問題，包括第二名死亡的楊姓老翁，醫院還認為他是諾羅病毒感染，它本來判定他是諾羅病毒感染，如果不是有這個新聞露出的話，大家會不會在各自的醫院裡面都覺得這個健康問題是來自於個人因素？如果沒有這個新聞露出，即便24號醫院通報、地方政府掌握，如果沒有新聞露出的話，根本就不知道這個原因是來自於寶林的素食粿仔條事件啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，可能不能單純這樣簡單的講啦，因為每一起中毒事件如果不是集體送到一家醫院去的時候，本來就不會……"],["林委員淑芬：對，你講對了，因為它是大型百貨公司，不是一個小社區裡面的小吃攤，大型百貨公司的消費人口可能是來自於全臺灣，所以有狀況發生時，可能是送到全臺灣各地的診所、大醫院，每一個個案如果不是因為新聞露出，你會覺得這是個人健康問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有、沒有，這個不是新聞露出……"],["林委員淑芬：直到新聞露出，才會發現這是一個集體中毒事件。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以個案可能分散在各個醫院，當他們一起通報過來的時候，我們才能夠知道整個狀況。"],["林委員淑芬：24號就有通報了！"],["薛部長瑞元：那時候是單一個案。"],["林委員淑芬：但新聞露出是26號，我覺得冤枉在哪裡，你知道嗎？從19號用餐，20號沒有個案，21、22、23都有！拖了5天，這個案例是5天這麼長的時間，而每一個發病的人都是急性肝衰竭、酸血、酸中毒，拖了5天，到新聞露出是第7天，19、20、21、22、23號，到第6天有通報，第7天有新聞露出但是不明顯，第8天才有新聞露出，大家才大量的通報進來，連醫院的這些第一線醫護人員也沒有經驗，他們後來透過回溯才發現，因為你們要求他們要回溯通報。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員淑芬：所以我說冤枉的意思是，19、20、21、22、23號這5天如果警覺意識高一點……"],["薛部長瑞元：19號是第一個吃的……"],["林委員淑芬：我知道……"],["薛部長瑞元：他就還沒有症狀出來要怎麼知道？"],["林委員淑芬：我知道啦，但是21號就送急診了！"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦，通報過來是23號……"],["林委員淑芬：對不對？22號就在ICU裡面了啦，而且第一例死亡的時候是24號，但是在24號之前就已經有很多人都在各個醫院、在全臺灣各種醫院嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦，有好幾家醫院都已經收到病人了。"],["林委員淑芬：我要告訴你，19、20、21、22、23號的這5天，再加上通報的第6天，再加上新聞露出的第8天，這時間拖太長了，他明明很早就發病，可是因為在各自獨立的醫院，大家都沒有看過這種病，沒有這種意識。現在我要再問你，有檢驗方法嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前的話是要看檢驗什麼東西，因為目前還不知道標的是什麼，但是……"],["林委員淑芬：昨天你們次長說很像是米酵菌酸中毒……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，很像是這一個啦，這個可能性最大，但是米酵菌酸的檢驗，因為我們現在沒有標準品，標準品的購置可能下個禮拜才會進來。"],["林委員淑芬：這個就是我們要講的，我現在要跟你講的是，我們對於新型態食物中毒的危機意識很弱。中國在15年間，從2005年到2020年，他們中毒188例，死亡85例，病死率45.21%。他們在中國食品衛生雜誌有發表一篇期刊論文「2005-2020年我國唐菖蒲伯克霍爾德氏菌中毒事件流行病學分析」，他們累積的報告有188例，其中重大級別、重大事件就占了總數188例的160例，約93.33%，死亡85例，就是有重大級別，還有死亡人數。我要再告訴你，這篇期刊還提到，這30件中毒事件，嚴重的28件，30件裡面有14件有檢出唐菖蒲伯克霍爾德氏菌，8件驗出米酵菌酸，28件由穀類發酵製品引起，2件由木耳引起，16件沒有檢出唐菖蒲伯克霍爾德氏菌，30件裡面有16件檢驗不出來，他們是依據症狀去回推的。"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：我們現在是連檢體都沒有，連菌都沒有啦。"],["薛部長瑞元：臺灣從來沒有發生過這種現象……"],["林委員淑芬：對，我知道！"],["薛部長瑞元：中國有這樣的一個報告，但是這一個可能發生問題的產品大部分是米或者是椰子，我們沒有從中國進口，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：對，現在中國也是因為衛生條件太差的製造條件才發生這些事件，而我們的情況是發生於一個大百貨公司裡面，所以這讓人家很焦慮啊！再來就是說，這個案件過去就沒有發生過，沒有危機意識，然後一發生也沒有辦法調查原因，因為連檢體都沒有，也沒辦法比對。"],["薛部長瑞元：標準品沒有，但檢體現在是有收集啦。"],["林委員淑芬：檢體有，現在是樣本……"],["薛部長瑞元：標準品。"],["林委員淑芬：標準品沒有，因為沒有這個菌種，這個唐菖蒲伯克霍爾德氏菌。"],["薛部長瑞元：倒不是這一個，主要是那個米酵菌酸……"],["林委員淑芬：米酵菌酸的標準品也沒有！"],["薛部長瑞元：如果說加熱之後，可能那個細菌是死掉了，但是這個酸還在。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我現在還要再告訴你一個，結果這些不管是死亡、在加護病房或普通病房或自行出院的人，現在我們靠的是責任險，結果它的責任險去年10月過期了。你們對全臺灣所有食品業、食品營業者的責任保險有在追蹤嗎？有在看他們的責任險有沒有過期了嗎？有沒有？他現在連賠償責任的保險都過期了，要怎麼辦？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，因為他們這個才剛停了沒多久……"],["林委員淑芬：什麼停了沒多久，一天都不行！因為它沒辦法負責嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們不可能每天去檢查它有沒有責任險。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要問你，你們有什麼機制去處理這個問題？沒有，從來都沒有在檢查？"],["薛部長瑞元：有啦，有啦。"],["林委員淑芬：這個去年10月過期到現在……"],["薛部長瑞元：稽查要會看。"],["林委員淑芬：你說不可能每天去，但去年10月到現在半年了，半年都沒有保險耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：事實上也是因為這一家準備這個月底就要停業了……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有！去年10月到期，不管它準備不準備要停業，從去年10月責任期就過期了！"],["薛部長瑞元：當然這是它的錯啦，這個應該也是需要去糾正的。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦，你們怎麼都不說衛福部裡面是不是有些把關的機制，有什麼好的設計可以防患於未然？這一次的確是有這個問題，為什麼這樣承認會這麼困難呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有問題嗎，你們衛福部裡面的人？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，這個部分的話，其實……"],["林委員淑芬：制度面有沒有問題？執行面呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們有定期查核這些食品、餐飲行業，要去看責任保險，但是實際上去看的是地方政府，所以我們會跟地方政府再加強聯繫，也就是說，可能去查核的……"],["林委員淑芬：對嘛！所以不管如何，地方政府、中央政府都一樣，對人民來講都叫做政府，你如何告訴我們每一個消費者，當他的消費如果出問題了，我們對每個廠商要求的保險責任都仍然可以接住他？我們想要聽這個。","第二個，現在、未來這種流行病學上的，或者是罕見的這些中毒事件，我想越來越多這種樣態會發生，但它是非典型的症狀，在食物中毒裡面是非典型，我們大家都是個案自行看到新聞去通報的居多，你們在制度面沒有要檢討一下，如果第一線看到或發現奇怪的非典型症狀的病人，大家要有一個通報機制，免得一個小吃攤在一個社區抓得到，一個學校的食物中毒很明顯，可是今天這一種樣態未來在制度面怎麼會知道？如果不是爆料，大家還以為是個人健康出問題，這種事情未來怎麼樣可以接得住，不是透過爆料？這個通報上……"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊，這還是在於通報的整合，這個部分可能還是有一些需要……"],["林委員淑芬：那什麼狀況才要通報？什麼狀況不用通報？"],["薛部長瑞元：醫院是24小時內如果有2個以上同時發生的就要通報，或者是有死亡的……"],["林委員淑芬：那也要同一家醫院有2個啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，或者是說有死亡案例的話，這應該就要通報。"],["林委員淑芬：要等到死亡？到現在為止13例裡面2個死亡，還不同醫院耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：不然會搞不完啦！等到夏天你就知道，一大堆案子，如果有一個就要通報的話，真的沒有辦法啦！"],["林委員淑芬：對於這種急性的集體中毒的風險，它的通報機制要去設計一下吧，也要檢討一下啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：是，所以這個部分就是怎麼樣快速地把這些分散的個案資料集中……"],["林委員淑芬：所以這個制度面及執行上有必要去檢討啊，透過這個悲劇，我們要從這個失敗、挫折的地方，有缺失而造成人命傷亡的狀況學到教訓啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：是啦，這當然有必要再進一步更精進。"],["林委員淑芬：去外面吃一頓飯，一條人命就沒了，這不是太冤枉了嗎？看到新聞爆料、露出了我們才知道不是個人健康問題，是因為集體食物中毒，如果沒有這個新聞露出，回家以後會誤以為是自己個人的問題，這也太冤枉了！"],["薛部長瑞元：不會啦，我們綜合通報的資料還是會發現的。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，責任險的部分趕快想想看要怎麼處理，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員，接下來請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":526,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","林淑芬","陳菁徽","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","王正旭","盧縣一","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","羅智強","洪孟楷","李彥秀","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳瑩","劉建國","黃珊珊","楊曜","邱鎮軍","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":355,"meetingDate":["2024-03-28"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進作法」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就「出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北\n市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、處理中華民國113年\n度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案 18 案（報告事項）。【專題報告綜合詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1132102_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"150578","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150578","tool":"pyannote","id":"150578-pyannote"},"job_id":"nzgQ4hUcVN2pijNl","queued_at":"2024-06-01 17:42:24","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-01 17:43:09","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150578"},{"time":"2024-06-01 17:43:10","msg":"downloading 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00:00:52,958\n目前正式有通報有大概13位但是昨天晚上還是今天早上又多了一位是在台南的你知道我覺得我代替所有台灣的消費者來這裡講一句話我覺得看到這些新聞這重大的這個食物中毒事件對我們來講我覺得太冤枉了對人民來講我們每一個看到這些死亡和重傷的人來講都覺得太冤枉了\n\n4\n00:01:08,121 --> 00:01:34,788\n再來就是說我覺得還有一個很大的感觸是為什麼這麼重大的食安中毒事件竟然是透過媒體爆料啊沒有這個還是有通報系統我告訴你整個案件哪些現在的13例有哪幾例有幾例是看到新聞才自己來主動通報哪幾例是在新聞露出26號以後才通報這個\n\n5\n00:01:36,997 --> 00:01:54,285\n這個大概用時間去切是不太對,但是不是,這個當然是因為包括後面自己主動來通報都是說我是看新聞才知道我是看新聞然後包括醫院都說我們看到新聞以後才回溯才通報\n\n6\n00:01:55,385 --> 00:02:16,392\n第一個是因為有這個第一例死亡的友人3月25號的晚上半夜將近10點然後新聞露出說因為去元柏吃了保齡茶室的這個用餐以後急救然後回天罰數25號的半夜\n\n7\n00:02:19,173 --> 00:02:45,990\n然後26號所有的新聞才露出然後呢很多人看到這個新聞露出以後才說我的症狀也是我的症狀也是我的意思是說如果你沒有看到這個新聞露出即便你們3月24號新北市、臺北市政府都接獲通報了24號地方政府都接獲通報了因為死亡的個案有通報上去嘛\n\n8\n00:02:47,214 --> 00:03:08,369\n但是因為那個死亡的個案很清楚的知道他的友人很清楚的知道我們是去原百吃了保齡的這個素食的龜仔條之後馬上有急重症出現所以他個人很清楚靠著這個個人很強的維基意識通報了市政府\n\n9\n00:03:09,190 --> 00:03:31,646\n然後新北市才通報臺北市但我是要講說這個都建立在這一個個人我以為那個是醫院通報的我說好那沒關係我現在要告訴你說現在這個看新聞才知道我們很多人主動通報是看新聞的如果不是看這個新聞的話每一個個案在醫院裡面\n\n10\n00:03:32,947 --> 00:04:01,336\n自己上吐下瀉然後呢這個常衛性包括第二名死亡的陽性老翁他醫院還認為他是諾羅病毒感染他本來判定他是諾羅病毒感染如果不是有這個新聞露出的話大家會不會在各自的醫院裡面都覺得這個健康問題是來自於個人因素\n\n11\n00:04:02,296 --> 00:04:16,940\n如果沒有這個新聞露出即便你們24號醫院通報地方政府掌握都沒有新聞露出的話根本就不知道這個原因是來自於保齡的素食歸押屌的事件啊\n\n12\n00:04:18,548 --> 00:04:38,289\n我們可能不能夠單純用這樣簡單的去講,因為本來每一個這種中毒事件的話,它會如果不是集體送到一家醫院去的時候,它本來就...欸對,你講對了,因為不是集體,因為它是大型百貨公司,所以不是一個小社區裡面的小池灘\n\n13\n00:04:39,210 --> 00:05:00,120\n大型百貨公司來自於消費人口來自於可能是全台灣的所以他的狀況一發生送到全台灣各地的診所大醫院每個個案如果不是因為新聞露出你會覺得這是個人健康問題直到新聞露出才會發現說這是一個集體的\n\n14\n00:05:03,883 --> 00:05:12,962\n這個中毒事件所以就是說個案在可能分散在各個醫院當他一起通報過來的時候我們才能夠知道整個的狀況\n\n15\n00:05:15,455 --> 00:05:40,655\n二十四號就有通報了但是新聞露出是二十六號我覺得冤枉在哪裡你知道嗎從十九號用餐二十號沒有個案二一、二二、二三都有拖了五天這個案例是五天這麼長的時間而每一個發病的人都是急性的肝衰竭、酸血、酸中毒\n\n16\n00:05:41,576 --> 00:05:59,750\n五天到新聞露出是第七天19、20、21、22、23第六天有通報第七天新聞露出但是不明顯第八天才新聞露出大家才大量的通報進來連醫院\n\n17\n00:06:02,452 --> 00:06:12,420\n的這些第一線的義務人員也沒有經驗然後他們後來透過回溯才發現說你們要求他們要回溯通報嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:14,102 --> 00:06:27,994\n所以我的意思是說他願望是19、20、21、22、23這五天如果警覺意識高一點19是第一次第一次我告訴你第一要不症狀出來要怎麼知道我知道啦但是二十一號就很快啦對啦二十二號二十二號就在ICU裡面的了啦而且\n\n19\n00:06:42,126 --> 00:06:54,233\n那個第一例死亡第一例死亡的時候是24號但24號之前就很多個人都在醫院各個醫院全台灣各種醫院嘛但我現在告訴你這個19、20、21、22、23\n\n20\n00:06:58,735 --> 00:07:15,952\n五天再加上通報的第六天再加上新聞露出的第八天這時間拖太長了明明就很早就發病可是因為在各自獨立的醫院大家都沒有看過這種病沒有這種意識然後現在我要再問你有檢驗方法嗎有檢驗方法嗎\n\n21\n00:07:18,795 --> 00:07:39,265\n目前的話是要看檢驗什麼東西因為目前還不知道你們昨天次長說很像是米酵菌酸中毒對很像是這一個啦這可能性最大但是這個米酵菌酸的這個檢驗因為我們現在沒有標準品所以標準品的購置可能下個禮拜才會進來\n\n22\n00:07:40,845 --> 00:07:44,868\n這個就是我們要講我現在跟你講說我們對於新型態的食物中毒危機意識很弱你知道中國15年間從2005年到2020年他們有中毒了188例死亡了85例病死率45.21%而且他們發表在他們的中國食品衛生雜誌\n\n23\n00:08:04,102 --> 00:08:29,507\n有一篇期刊論文,2005-2020中國的唐昌普·伯克霍爾德氏菌中毒的世界流行病學分析所以他們在裡面累計的報告有188例而且較大級別就是重大的級別的重大事件他的這個就佔了全部188例裡面93.33%,160例死亡的\n\n24\n00:08:35,370 --> 00:08:45,624\n這個85例就有重大級別還有這個死亡人數其實我們要講的是說我要再告訴你喔這邊期刊來講喔\n\n25\n00:08:48,342 --> 00:09:11,738\n這個30件,總的30件,嚴重了28件裡面有30件裡面有14件有檢出唐昌普、伯克、霍爾德氏菌8件驗出米酵菌酸28件由穀類發酵製品引起2件由木耳引起16件沒有檢出唐昌普、伯克、霍爾德氏菌\n\n26\n00:09:12,899 --> 00:09:21,364\n十六件,三十件裡面有十六件檢驗不出來他們是依據症狀去回推的我們現在是連檢體都沒有,連菌都沒有了台灣從來沒有發生過這種現象\n\n27\n00:09:32,995 --> 00:09:42,805\n中國有這樣的一個報告但是這一個可能發生問題的產品大部分就是米或者是椰子我們沒有從中國進口\n\n28\n00:09:45,202 --> 00:10:06,907\n對現在中國也是因為衛生條件太差的製造條件才發生這些事件而我們是在一個大百貨公司裡面所以你讓人家很焦慮啊再來就是說這個案件我們要大家過去就沒有發生過沒有危機意識然後一發生也沒有辦法調查原因因為連簡體都沒有也沒辦法比對\n\n29\n00:10:08,207 --> 00:10:33,457\n標準品沒有啦,檢體現在是有收集啦檢體有,現在是那個樣本標準品標準品沒有因為沒有這個菌種,這個唐昌柏柏克氏菌倒不是這一個,是主要是那個米效菌酸的標準品也沒有因為如果說加熱之後可能那個細菌是死掉了但是這一個酸還在\n\n30\n00:10:34,457 --> 00:10:59,763\n好我現在再告訴你一個結果發現這些這些不管是死亡或是在家務病房或普通病房或自行出院的現在我們靠的是責任險結果他的責任險過期了去年10月過期了你們對全臺灣所有的食品業食品營業者這種責任保險制你們有在追蹤嗎有在看他有沒有過期了嗎有沒有\n\n31\n00:11:01,181 --> 00:11:10,908\n他現在臨北市政府的保險不能過期啊?要怎麼做?因為這剛才停了沒多久啦什麼停了沒多久?一天就不會贏了因為他沒有資料付出啦嘛我現在要問你你有什麼機制去處理這個問題?沒有?從來都沒有在檢查?有啦有啦有啊這個過期去年10月過期到現在你說不可能每天去去年10月到現在半年了\n\n32\n00:11:31,581 --> 00:11:32,923\n因為這事實上也是這一家他準備這個月就要停業沒有\n\n33\n00:11:41,744 --> 00:12:01,088\n去年10月不管他準備不準備要停業,從去年10月責任險就過期了。對啦,這個應該也是需要去糾正。沒有啦,你們都不要說我們衛福部裡面是不是有些機制,把關的機制沒有好好的去,有什麼好的設計,未來還可以預防。\n\n34\n00:12:05,009 --> 00:12:27,285\n然後這次的確是有這個問題,為什麼這樣承認會這麼困難呢?沒有問題嗎?你們衛福部裡面的人?沒有,這一個部分的話,其實是...制度面有沒有問題?執行面啊?我們有去查核,定期查核這些食品、餐飲的這一個行業的話,要去看責任保險\n\n35\n00:12:28,766 --> 00:12:53,900\n但是實際上去看的是地方政府所以我們這個會再跟地方政府這邊再加強啦就加強去聯繫也就是說可能去對嘛所以不管如何雖然是地方政府、中央政府都一樣對人民來講都叫做政府你如果告訴我們每一個消費者你的消費如果出問題了每一個廠商我們對他要求的這個保險責任都仍然可以接住你\n\n36\n00:12:55,287 --> 00:13:11,752\n我們想要聽這個第二個現在未來這種流行病學上的或者是罕見的這些中毒事件的我想會越來越多這種樣態會發生但它非典型的症狀在食物中毒裡面非典型那我們\n\n37\n00:13:13,513 --> 00:13:30,225\n大家都是個案自行看到新聞去通報居多居多啦那我們在制度面沒有說檢討一下如果第一線看到發現奇怪的非典型症狀的大家要一個通報機制免得\n\n38\n00:13:31,306 --> 00:13:53,413\n一個小吃攤在一個社區抓得到一個學校食物中毒很明顯可是這一種樣態今天這一種樣態未來在制度面要怎麼會知道如果不是爆料大家這個還以為是個人健康出問題這種事情未來怎麼樣可以大家可以接住不是透過爆料\n\n39\n00:13:55,422 --> 00:14:02,192\n這個還是在通報的整合啦這個部分的話可能還是有那什麼狀況才要通報?什麼狀況不用通報?\n\n40\n00:14:04,153 --> 00:14:26,030\n醫院是24小時,如果有兩個以上同時發生的就要通報。那也要同一家醫院有兩個啊?對對對,或者是說有死亡的案例的話就應該就要通報。你要到死亡,到現在為止13例裡面兩個死亡還不同醫院欸。每年夏天就知道,整個案例一大堆案子。我們這種極限……\n\n41\n00:14:28,232 --> 00:14:44,362\n急性的集體中毒的風險,它的通報機制,你要設計一下吧,也要檢討一下啦。所以這一個部分就是怎麼樣快速的把這些分散的個案能夠資料的集中。\n\n42\n00:14:44,582 --> 00:14:55,670\n所以這個制度面執行上有必要去檢討啊透過這個悲劇然後我們要從這個失敗挫折的地方有缺失造成人命傷亡的狀況我們要學的教訓啊是啦這當然有必要再進一步建立\n\n43\n00:15:02,455 --> 00:15:03,436\n臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6429\t9373\t主席,我是不是再請我們部長?請部長。委員好。\n23141\t39074\t今天的這個議題很重要不過還有更緊急的事情就是我們這個保齡查釋的這個重大的食安的問題要就教於你你知道現在到底是有幾個個案幾個死亡幾個加護病房嗎\n40175\t52958\t目前正式有通報有大概13位但是昨天晚上還是今天早上又多了一位是在台南的你知道我覺得我代替所有台灣的消費者來這裡講一句話我覺得看到這些新聞這重大的這個食物中毒事件對我們來講我覺得太冤枉了對人民來講我們每一個看到這些死亡和重傷的人來講都覺得太冤枉了\n68121\t94788\t再來就是說我覺得還有一個很大的感觸是為什麼這麼重大的食安中毒事件竟然是透過媒體爆料啊沒有 這個還是有通報系統我告訴你整個案件哪些現在的13例有哪幾例有幾例是看到新聞才自己來主動通報哪幾例是在新聞露出26號以後才通報這個\n96997\t114285\t這個大概用時間去切是不太對,但是不是,這個當然是因為包括後面自己主動來通報都是說我是看新聞才知道我是看新聞然後包括醫院都說我們看到新聞以後才回溯才通報\n115385\t136392\t第一個是因為有這個第一例死亡的友人3月25號的晚上半夜將近10點然後新聞露出說因為去元柏吃了保齡茶室的這個用餐以後急救然後回天罰數25號的半夜\n139173\t165990\t然後26號所有的新聞才露出然後呢很多人看到這個新聞露出以後才說我的症狀也是我的症狀也是我的意思是說如果你沒有看到這個新聞露出即便你們3月24號新北市、臺北市政府都接獲通報了24號地方政府都接獲通報了因為死亡的個案有通報上去嘛\n167214\t188369\t但是因為那個死亡的個案很清楚的知道他的友人很清楚的知道我們是去原百吃了保齡的這個素食的龜仔條之後馬上有急重症出現所以他個人很清楚靠著這個個人很強的維基意識通報了市政府\n189190\t211646\t然後新北市才通報臺北市但我是要講說這個都建立在這一個個人我以為那個是醫院通報的我說好那沒關係我現在要告訴你說現在這個看新聞才知道我們很多人主動通報是看新聞的如果不是看這個新聞的話每一個個案在醫院裡面\n212947\t241336\t自己上吐下瀉然後呢這個常衛性包括第二名死亡的陽性老翁他醫院還認為他是諾羅病毒感染他本來判定他是諾羅病毒感染如果不是有這個新聞露出的話大家會不會在各自的醫院裡面都覺得這個健康問題是來自於個人因素\n242296\t256940\t如果沒有這個新聞露出即便你們24號醫院通報地方政府掌握都沒有新聞露出的話根本就不知道這個原因是來自於保齡的素食歸押屌的事件啊\n258548\t278289\t我們可能不能夠單純用這樣簡單的去講,因為本來每一個這種中毒事件的話,它會如果不是集體送到一家醫院去的時候,它本來就...欸對,你講對了,因為不是集體,因為它是大型百貨公司,所以不是一個小社區裡面的小池灘\n279210\t300120\t大型百貨公司來自於消費人口來自於可能是全台灣的所以他的狀況一發生送到全台灣各地的診所大醫院每個個案如果不是因為新聞露出你會覺得這是個人健康問題直到新聞露出才會發現說這是一個集體的\n303883\t312962\t這個中毒事件所以就是說個案在可能分散在各個醫院當他一起通報過來的時候我們才能夠知道整個的狀況\n315455\t340655\t二十四號就有通報了但是新聞露出是二十六號我覺得冤枉在哪裡你知道嗎從十九號用餐二十號沒有個案二一、二二、二三都有拖了五天這個案例是五天這麼長的時間而每一個發病的人都是急性的肝衰竭、酸血、酸中毒\n341576\t359750\t五天到新聞露出是第七天19、20、21、22、23第六天有通報第七天新聞露出但是不明顯第八天才新聞露出大家才大量的通報進來連醫院\n362452\t372420\t的這些第一線的義務人員也沒有經驗然後他們後來透過回溯才發現說你們要求他們要回溯通報嗎?\n374102\t387994\t所以我的意思是說他願望是19、20、21、22、23這五天如果警覺意識高一點19是第一次第一次我告訴你第一要不症狀出來要怎麼知道我知道啦但是二十一號就很快啦對啦二十二號二十二號就在ICU裡面的了啦而且\n402126\t414233\t那個第一例死亡第一例死亡的時候是24號但24號之前就很多個人都在醫院各個醫院全台灣各種醫院嘛但我現在告訴你這個19、20、21、22、23\n418735\t435952\t五天再加上通報的第六天再加上新聞露出的第八天這時間拖太長了明明就很早就發病可是因為在各自獨立的醫院大家都沒有看過這種病沒有這種意識然後現在我要再問你有檢驗方法嗎有檢驗方法嗎\n438795\t459265\t目前的話是要看檢驗什麼東西因為目前還不知道你們昨天次長說很像是米酵菌酸中毒對很像是這一個啦這可能性最大但是這個米酵菌酸的這個檢驗因為我們現在沒有標準品所以標準品的購置可能下個禮拜才會進來\n460845\t464868\t這個就是我們要講我現在跟你講說我們對於新型態的食物中毒危機意識很弱你知道中國15年間從2005年到2020年他們有中毒了188例死亡了85例病死率45.21%而且他們發表在他們的中國食品衛生雜誌\n484102\t509507\t有一篇期刊論文,2005-2020中國的唐昌普·伯克霍爾德氏菌中毒的世界流行病學分析所以他們在裡面累計的報告有188例而且較大級別就是重大的級別的重大事件他的這個就佔了全部188例裡面93.33%,160例死亡的\n515370\t525624\t這個85例就有重大級別還有這個死亡人數其實我們要講的是說我要再告訴你喔這邊期刊來講喔\n528342\t551738\t這個30件,總的30件,嚴重了28件裡面有30件裡面有14件有檢出唐昌普、伯克、霍爾德氏菌8件驗出米酵菌酸28件由穀類發酵製品引起2件由木耳引起16件沒有檢出唐昌普、伯克、霍爾德氏菌\n552899\t561364\t十六件,三十件裡面有十六件檢驗不出來他們是依據症狀去回推的我們現在是連檢體都沒有,連菌都沒有了台灣從來沒有發生過這種現象\n572995\t582805\t中國有這樣的一個報告但是這一個可能發生問題的產品大部分就是米或者是椰子我們沒有從中國進口\n585202\t606907\t對現在中國也是因為衛生條件太差的製造條件才發生這些事件而我們是在一個大百貨公司裡面所以你讓人家很焦慮啊再來就是說這個案件我們要大家過去就沒有發生過沒有危機意識然後一發生也沒有辦法調查原因因為連簡體都沒有也沒辦法比對\n608207\t633457\t標準品沒有啦,檢體現在是有收集啦檢體有,現在是那個樣本標準品標準品沒有因為沒有這個菌種,這個唐昌柏柏克氏菌倒不是這一個,是主要是那個米效菌酸的標準品也沒有因為如果說加熱之後可能那個細菌是死掉了但是這一個酸還在\n634457\t659763\t好我現在再告訴你一個結果發現這些這些不管是死亡或是在家務病房或普通病房或自行出院的現在我們靠的是責任險結果他的責任險過期了去年10月過期了你們對全臺灣所有的食品業食品營業者這種責任保險制你們有在追蹤嗎有在看他有沒有過期了嗎有沒有\n661181\t670908\t他現在臨北市政府的保險不能過期啊?要怎麼做?因為這剛才停了沒多久啦什麼停了沒多久?一天就不會贏了因為他沒有資料付出啦嘛我現在要問你 你有什麼機制去處理這個問題?沒有?從來都沒有在檢查?有啦 有啦 有啊這個過期 去年10月過期到現在你說不可能每天去去年10月到現在半年了\n691581\t692923\t因為這事實上也是這一家他準備這個月就要停業沒有\n701744\t721088\t去年10月不管他準備不準備要停業,從去年10月責任險就過期了。對啦,這個應該也是需要去糾正。沒有啦,你們都不要說我們衛福部裡面是不是有些機制,把關的機制沒有好好的去,有什麼好的設計,未來還可以預防。\n725009\t747285\t然後這次的確是有這個問題,為什麼這樣承認會這麼困難呢?沒有問題嗎?你們衛福部裡面的人?沒有,這一個部分的話,其實是...制度面有沒有問題?執行面啊?我們有去查核,定期查核這些食品、餐飲的這一個行業的話,要去看責任保險\n748766\t773900\t但是實際上去看的是地方政府所以我們這個會再跟地方政府這邊再加強啦就加強去聯繫也就是說可能去對嘛所以不管如何雖然是地方政府、中央政府都一樣對人民來講都叫做政府你如果告訴我們每一個消費者你的消費如果出問題了每一個廠商我們對他要求的這個保險責任都仍然可以接住你\n775287\t791752\t我們想要聽這個第二個現在未來這種流行病學上的或者是罕見的這些中毒事件的我想會越來越多這種樣態會發生但它非典型的症狀在食物中毒裡面非典型那我們\n793513\t810225\t大家都是個案自行看到新聞去通報居多居多啦那我們在制度面沒有說檢討一下如果第一線看到發現奇怪的非典型症狀的大家要一個通報機制免得\n811306\t833413\t一個小吃攤在一個社區抓得到一個學校食物中毒很明顯可是這一種樣態今天這一種樣態未來在制度面要怎麼會知道如果不是爆料大家這個還以為是個人健康出問題這種事情未來怎麼樣可以大家可以接住不是透過爆料\n835422\t842192\t這個還是在通報的整合啦這個部分的話可能還是有那什麼狀況才要通報?什麼狀況不用通報?\n844153\t866030\t醫院是24小時,如果有兩個以上同時發生的就要通報。那也要同一家醫院有兩個啊?對對對,或者是說有死亡的案例的話就應該就要通報。你要到死亡,到現在為止13例裡面兩個死亡還不同醫院欸。每年夏天就知道,整個案例一大堆案子。我們這種極限……\n868232\t884362\t急性的集體中毒的風險,它的通報機制,你要設計一下吧,也要檢討一下啦。所以這一個部分就是怎麼樣快速的把這些分散的個案能夠資料的集中。\n884582\t895670\t所以這個制度面執行上有必要去檢討啊透過這個悲劇然後我們要從這個失敗挫折的地方有缺失造成人命傷亡的狀況我們要學的教訓啊是啦 這當然有必要再進一步建立\n902455\t903436\t臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告\n","txt":"主席,我是不是再請我們部長?請部長。委員好。\n今天的這個議題很重要不過還有更緊急的事情就是我們這個保齡查釋的這個重大的食安的問題要就教於你你知道現在到底是有幾個個案幾個死亡幾個加護病房嗎\n目前正式有通報有大概13位但是昨天晚上還是今天早上又多了一位是在台南的你知道我覺得我代替所有台灣的消費者來這裡講一句話我覺得看到這些新聞這重大的這個食物中毒事件對我們來講我覺得太冤枉了對人民來講我們每一個看到這些死亡和重傷的人來講都覺得太冤枉了\n再來就是說我覺得還有一個很大的感觸是為什麼這麼重大的食安中毒事件竟然是透過媒體爆料啊沒有 這個還是有通報系統我告訴你整個案件哪些現在的13例有哪幾例有幾例是看到新聞才自己來主動通報哪幾例是在新聞露出26號以後才通報這個\n這個大概用時間去切是不太對,但是不是,這個當然是因為包括後面自己主動來通報都是說我是看新聞才知道我是看新聞然後包括醫院都說我們看到新聞以後才回溯才通報\n第一個是因為有這個第一例死亡的友人3月25號的晚上半夜將近10點然後新聞露出說因為去元柏吃了保齡茶室的這個用餐以後急救然後回天罰數25號的半夜\n然後26號所有的新聞才露出然後呢很多人看到這個新聞露出以後才說我的症狀也是我的症狀也是我的意思是說如果你沒有看到這個新聞露出即便你們3月24號新北市、臺北市政府都接獲通報了24號地方政府都接獲通報了因為死亡的個案有通報上去嘛\n但是因為那個死亡的個案很清楚的知道他的友人很清楚的知道我們是去原百吃了保齡的這個素食的龜仔條之後馬上有急重症出現所以他個人很清楚靠著這個個人很強的維基意識通報了市政府\n然後新北市才通報臺北市但我是要講說這個都建立在這一個個人我以為那個是醫院通報的我說好那沒關係我現在要告訴你說現在這個看新聞才知道我們很多人主動通報是看新聞的如果不是看這個新聞的話每一個個案在醫院裡面\n自己上吐下瀉然後呢這個常衛性包括第二名死亡的陽性老翁他醫院還認為他是諾羅病毒感染他本來判定他是諾羅病毒感染如果不是有這個新聞露出的話大家會不會在各自的醫院裡面都覺得這個健康問題是來自於個人因素\n如果沒有這個新聞露出即便你們24號醫院通報地方政府掌握都沒有新聞露出的話根本就不知道這個原因是來自於保齡的素食歸押屌的事件啊\n我們可能不能夠單純用這樣簡單的去講,因為本來每一個這種中毒事件的話,它會如果不是集體送到一家醫院去的時候,它本來就...欸對,你講對了,因為不是集體,因為它是大型百貨公司,所以不是一個小社區裡面的小池灘\n大型百貨公司來自於消費人口來自於可能是全台灣的所以他的狀況一發生送到全台灣各地的診所大醫院每個個案如果不是因為新聞露出你會覺得這是個人健康問題直到新聞露出才會發現說這是一個集體的\n這個中毒事件所以就是說個案在可能分散在各個醫院當他一起通報過來的時候我們才能夠知道整個的狀況\n二十四號就有通報了但是新聞露出是二十六號我覺得冤枉在哪裡你知道嗎從十九號用餐二十號沒有個案二一、二二、二三都有拖了五天這個案例是五天這麼長的時間而每一個發病的人都是急性的肝衰竭、酸血、酸中毒\n五天到新聞露出是第七天19、20、21、22、23第六天有通報第七天新聞露出但是不明顯第八天才新聞露出大家才大量的通報進來連醫院\n的這些第一線的義務人員也沒有經驗然後他們後來透過回溯才發現說你們要求他們要回溯通報嗎?\n所以我的意思是說他願望是19、20、21、22、23這五天如果警覺意識高一點19是第一次第一次我告訴你第一要不症狀出來要怎麼知道我知道啦但是二十一號就很快啦對啦二十二號二十二號就在ICU裡面的了啦而且\n那個第一例死亡第一例死亡的時候是24號但24號之前就很多個人都在醫院各個醫院全台灣各種醫院嘛但我現在告訴你這個19、20、21、22、23\n五天再加上通報的第六天再加上新聞露出的第八天這時間拖太長了明明就很早就發病可是因為在各自獨立的醫院大家都沒有看過這種病沒有這種意識然後現在我要再問你有檢驗方法嗎有檢驗方法嗎\n目前的話是要看檢驗什麼東西因為目前還不知道你們昨天次長說很像是米酵菌酸中毒對很像是這一個啦這可能性最大但是這個米酵菌酸的這個檢驗因為我們現在沒有標準品所以標準品的購置可能下個禮拜才會進來\n這個就是我們要講我現在跟你講說我們對於新型態的食物中毒危機意識很弱你知道中國15年間從2005年到2020年他們有中毒了188例死亡了85例病死率45.21%而且他們發表在他們的中國食品衛生雜誌\n有一篇期刊論文,2005-2020中國的唐昌普·伯克霍爾德氏菌中毒的世界流行病學分析所以他們在裡面累計的報告有188例而且較大級別就是重大的級別的重大事件他的這個就佔了全部188例裡面93.33%,160例死亡的\n這個85例就有重大級別還有這個死亡人數其實我們要講的是說我要再告訴你喔這邊期刊來講喔\n這個30件,總的30件,嚴重了28件裡面有30件裡面有14件有檢出唐昌普、伯克、霍爾德氏菌8件驗出米酵菌酸28件由穀類發酵製品引起2件由木耳引起16件沒有檢出唐昌普、伯克、霍爾德氏菌\n十六件,三十件裡面有十六件檢驗不出來他們是依據症狀去回推的我們現在是連檢體都沒有,連菌都沒有了台灣從來沒有發生過這種現象\n中國有這樣的一個報告但是這一個可能發生問題的產品大部分就是米或者是椰子我們沒有從中國進口\n對現在中國也是因為衛生條件太差的製造條件才發生這些事件而我們是在一個大百貨公司裡面所以你讓人家很焦慮啊再來就是說這個案件我們要大家過去就沒有發生過沒有危機意識然後一發生也沒有辦法調查原因因為連簡體都沒有也沒辦法比對\n標準品沒有啦,檢體現在是有收集啦檢體有,現在是那個樣本標準品標準品沒有因為沒有這個菌種,這個唐昌柏柏克氏菌倒不是這一個,是主要是那個米效菌酸的標準品也沒有因為如果說加熱之後可能那個細菌是死掉了但是這一個酸還在\n好我現在再告訴你一個結果發現這些這些不管是死亡或是在家務病房或普通病房或自行出院的現在我們靠的是責任險結果他的責任險過期了去年10月過期了你們對全臺灣所有的食品業食品營業者這種責任保險制你們有在追蹤嗎有在看他有沒有過期了嗎有沒有\n他現在臨北市政府的保險不能過期啊?要怎麼做?因為這剛才停了沒多久啦什麼停了沒多久?一天就不會贏了因為他沒有資料付出啦嘛我現在要問你 你有什麼機制去處理這個問題?沒有?從來都沒有在檢查?有啦 有啦 有啊這個過期 去年10月過期到現在你說不可能每天去去年10月到現在半年了\n因為這事實上也是這一家他準備這個月就要停業沒有\n去年10月不管他準備不準備要停業,從去年10月責任險就過期了。對啦,這個應該也是需要去糾正。沒有啦,你們都不要說我們衛福部裡面是不是有些機制,把關的機制沒有好好的去,有什麼好的設計,未來還可以預防。\n然後這次的確是有這個問題,為什麼這樣承認會這麼困難呢?沒有問題嗎?你們衛福部裡面的人?沒有,這一個部分的話,其實是...制度面有沒有問題?執行面啊?我們有去查核,定期查核這些食品、餐飲的這一個行業的話,要去看責任保險\n但是實際上去看的是地方政府所以我們這個會再跟地方政府這邊再加強啦就加強去聯繫也就是說可能去對嘛所以不管如何雖然是地方政府、中央政府都一樣對人民來講都叫做政府你如果告訴我們每一個消費者你的消費如果出問題了每一個廠商我們對他要求的這個保險責任都仍然可以接住你\n我們想要聽這個第二個現在未來這種流行病學上的或者是罕見的這些中毒事件的我想會越來越多這種樣態會發生但它非典型的症狀在食物中毒裡面非典型那我們\n大家都是個案自行看到新聞去通報居多居多啦那我們在制度面沒有說檢討一下如果第一線看到發現奇怪的非典型症狀的大家要一個通報機制免得\n一個小吃攤在一個社區抓得到一個學校食物中毒很明顯可是這一種樣態今天這一種樣態未來在制度面要怎麼會知道如果不是爆料大家這個還以為是個人健康出問題這種事情未來怎麼樣可以大家可以接住不是透過爆料\n這個還是在通報的整合啦這個部分的話可能還是有那什麼狀況才要通報?什麼狀況不用通報?\n醫院是24小時,如果有兩個以上同時發生的就要通報。那也要同一家醫院有兩個啊?對對對,或者是說有死亡的案例的話就應該就要通報。你要到死亡,到現在為止13例裡面兩個死亡還不同醫院欸。每年夏天就知道,整個案例一大堆案子。我們這種極限……\n急性的集體中毒的風險,它的通報機制,你要設計一下吧,也要檢討一下啦。所以這一個部分就是怎麼樣快速的把這些分散的個案能夠資料的集中。\n所以這個制度面執行上有必要去檢討啊透過這個悲劇然後我們要從這個失敗挫折的地方有缺失造成人命傷亡的狀況我們要學的教訓啊是啦 這當然有必要再進一步建立\n臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.429 --> 00:09.373\n主席,我是不是再請我們部長?請部長。委員好。\n\n00:23.141 --> 00:39.074\n今天的這個議題很重要不過還有更緊急的事情就是我們這個保齡查釋的這個重大的食安的問題要就教於你你知道現在到底是有幾個個案幾個死亡幾個加護病房嗎\n\n00:40.175 --> 00:52.958\n目前正式有通報有大概13位但是昨天晚上還是今天早上又多了一位是在台南的你知道我覺得我代替所有台灣的消費者來這裡講一句話我覺得看到這些新聞這重大的這個食物中毒事件對我們來講我覺得太冤枉了對人民來講我們每一個看到這些死亡和重傷的人來講都覺得太冤枉了\n\n01:08.121 --> 01:34.788\n再來就是說我覺得還有一個很大的感觸是為什麼這麼重大的食安中毒事件竟然是透過媒體爆料啊沒有這個還是有通報系統我告訴你整個案件哪些現在的13例有哪幾例有幾例是看到新聞才自己來主動通報哪幾例是在新聞露出26號以後才通報這個\n\n01:36.997 --> 01:54.285\n這個大概用時間去切是不太對,但是不是,這個當然是因為包括後面自己主動來通報都是說我是看新聞才知道我是看新聞然後包括醫院都說我們看到新聞以後才回溯才通報\n\n01:55.385 --> 02:16.392\n第一個是因為有這個第一例死亡的友人3月25號的晚上半夜將近10點然後新聞露出說因為去元柏吃了保齡茶室的這個用餐以後急救然後回天罰數25號的半夜\n\n02:19.173 --> 02:45.990\n然後26號所有的新聞才露出然後呢很多人看到這個新聞露出以後才說我的症狀也是我的症狀也是我的意思是說如果你沒有看到這個新聞露出即便你們3月24號新北市、臺北市政府都接獲通報了24號地方政府都接獲通報了因為死亡的個案有通報上去嘛\n\n02:47.214 --> 03:08.369\n但是因為那個死亡的個案很清楚的知道他的友人很清楚的知道我們是去原百吃了保齡的這個素食的龜仔條之後馬上有急重症出現所以他個人很清楚靠著這個個人很強的維基意識通報了市政府\n\n03:09.190 --> 03:31.646\n然後新北市才通報臺北市但我是要講說這個都建立在這一個個人我以為那個是醫院通報的我說好那沒關係我現在要告訴你說現在這個看新聞才知道我們很多人主動通報是看新聞的如果不是看這個新聞的話每一個個案在醫院裡面\n\n03:32.947 --> 04:01.336\n自己上吐下瀉然後呢這個常衛性包括第二名死亡的陽性老翁他醫院還認為他是諾羅病毒感染他本來判定他是諾羅病毒感染如果不是有這個新聞露出的話大家會不會在各自的醫院裡面都覺得這個健康問題是來自於個人因素\n\n04:02.296 --> 04:16.940\n如果沒有這個新聞露出即便你們24號醫院通報地方政府掌握都沒有新聞露出的話根本就不知道這個原因是來自於保齡的素食歸押屌的事件啊\n\n04:18.548 --> 04:38.289\n我們可能不能夠單純用這樣簡單的去講,因為本來每一個這種中毒事件的話,它會如果不是集體送到一家醫院去的時候,它本來就...欸對,你講對了,因為不是集體,因為它是大型百貨公司,所以不是一個小社區裡面的小池灘\n\n04:39.210 --> 05:00.120\n大型百貨公司來自於消費人口來自於可能是全台灣的所以他的狀況一發生送到全台灣各地的診所大醫院每個個案如果不是因為新聞露出你會覺得這是個人健康問題直到新聞露出才會發現說這是一個集體的\n\n05:03.883 --> 05:12.962\n這個中毒事件所以就是說個案在可能分散在各個醫院當他一起通報過來的時候我們才能夠知道整個的狀況\n\n05:15.455 --> 05:40.655\n二十四號就有通報了但是新聞露出是二十六號我覺得冤枉在哪裡你知道嗎從十九號用餐二十號沒有個案二一、二二、二三都有拖了五天這個案例是五天這麼長的時間而每一個發病的人都是急性的肝衰竭、酸血、酸中毒\n\n05:41.576 --> 05:59.750\n五天到新聞露出是第七天19、20、21、22、23第六天有通報第七天新聞露出但是不明顯第八天才新聞露出大家才大量的通報進來連醫院\n\n06:02.452 --> 06:12.420\n的這些第一線的義務人員也沒有經驗然後他們後來透過回溯才發現說你們要求他們要回溯通報嗎?\n\n06:14.102 --> 06:27.994\n所以我的意思是說他願望是19、20、21、22、23這五天如果警覺意識高一點19是第一次第一次我告訴你第一要不症狀出來要怎麼知道我知道啦但是二十一號就很快啦對啦二十二號二十二號就在ICU裡面的了啦而且\n\n06:42.126 --> 06:54.233\n那個第一例死亡第一例死亡的時候是24號但24號之前就很多個人都在醫院各個醫院全台灣各種醫院嘛但我現在告訴你這個19、20、21、22、23\n\n06:58.735 --> 07:15.952\n五天再加上通報的第六天再加上新聞露出的第八天這時間拖太長了明明就很早就發病可是因為在各自獨立的醫院大家都沒有看過這種病沒有這種意識然後現在我要再問你有檢驗方法嗎有檢驗方法嗎\n\n07:18.795 --> 07:39.265\n目前的話是要看檢驗什麼東西因為目前還不知道你們昨天次長說很像是米酵菌酸中毒對很像是這一個啦這可能性最大但是這個米酵菌酸的這個檢驗因為我們現在沒有標準品所以標準品的購置可能下個禮拜才會進來\n\n07:40.845 --> 07:44.868\n這個就是我們要講我現在跟你講說我們對於新型態的食物中毒危機意識很弱你知道中國15年間從2005年到2020年他們有中毒了188例死亡了85例病死率45.21%而且他們發表在他們的中國食品衛生雜誌\n\n08:04.102 --> 08:29.507\n有一篇期刊論文,2005-2020中國的唐昌普·伯克霍爾德氏菌中毒的世界流行病學分析所以他們在裡面累計的報告有188例而且較大級別就是重大的級別的重大事件他的這個就佔了全部188例裡面93.33%,160例死亡的\n\n08:35.370 --> 08:45.624\n這個85例就有重大級別還有這個死亡人數其實我們要講的是說我要再告訴你喔這邊期刊來講喔\n\n08:48.342 --> 09:11.738\n這個30件,總的30件,嚴重了28件裡面有30件裡面有14件有檢出唐昌普、伯克、霍爾德氏菌8件驗出米酵菌酸28件由穀類發酵製品引起2件由木耳引起16件沒有檢出唐昌普、伯克、霍爾德氏菌\n\n09:12.899 --> 09:21.364\n十六件,三十件裡面有十六件檢驗不出來他們是依據症狀去回推的我們現在是連檢體都沒有,連菌都沒有了台灣從來沒有發生過這種現象\n\n09:32.995 --> 09:42.805\n中國有這樣的一個報告但是這一個可能發生問題的產品大部分就是米或者是椰子我們沒有從中國進口\n\n09:45.202 --> 10:06.907\n對現在中國也是因為衛生條件太差的製造條件才發生這些事件而我們是在一個大百貨公司裡面所以你讓人家很焦慮啊再來就是說這個案件我們要大家過去就沒有發生過沒有危機意識然後一發生也沒有辦法調查原因因為連簡體都沒有也沒辦法比對\n\n10:08.207 --> 10:33.457\n標準品沒有啦,檢體現在是有收集啦檢體有,現在是那個樣本標準品標準品沒有因為沒有這個菌種,這個唐昌柏柏克氏菌倒不是這一個,是主要是那個米效菌酸的標準品也沒有因為如果說加熱之後可能那個細菌是死掉了但是這一個酸還在\n\n10:34.457 --> 10:59.763\n好我現在再告訴你一個結果發現這些這些不管是死亡或是在家務病房或普通病房或自行出院的現在我們靠的是責任險結果他的責任險過期了去年10月過期了你們對全臺灣所有的食品業食品營業者這種責任保險制你們有在追蹤嗎有在看他有沒有過期了嗎有沒有\n\n11:01.181 --> 11:10.908\n他現在臨北市政府的保險不能過期啊?要怎麼做?因為這剛才停了沒多久啦什麼停了沒多久?一天就不會贏了因為他沒有資料付出啦嘛我現在要問你你有什麼機制去處理這個問題?沒有?從來都沒有在檢查?有啦有啦有啊這個過期去年10月過期到現在你說不可能每天去去年10月到現在半年了\n\n11:31.581 --> 11:32.923\n因為這事實上也是這一家他準備這個月就要停業沒有\n\n11:41.744 --> 12:01.088\n去年10月不管他準備不準備要停業,從去年10月責任險就過期了。對啦,這個應該也是需要去糾正。沒有啦,你們都不要說我們衛福部裡面是不是有些機制,把關的機制沒有好好的去,有什麼好的設計,未來還可以預防。\n\n12:05.009 --> 12:27.285\n然後這次的確是有這個問題,為什麼這樣承認會這麼困難呢?沒有問題嗎?你們衛福部裡面的人?沒有,這一個部分的話,其實是...制度面有沒有問題?執行面啊?我們有去查核,定期查核這些食品、餐飲的這一個行業的話,要去看責任保險\n\n12:28.766 --> 12:53.900\n但是實際上去看的是地方政府所以我們這個會再跟地方政府這邊再加強啦就加強去聯繫也就是說可能去對嘛所以不管如何雖然是地方政府、中央政府都一樣對人民來講都叫做政府你如果告訴我們每一個消費者你的消費如果出問題了每一個廠商我們對他要求的這個保險責任都仍然可以接住你\n\n12:55.287 --> 13:11.752\n我們想要聽這個第二個現在未來這種流行病學上的或者是罕見的這些中毒事件的我想會越來越多這種樣態會發生但它非典型的症狀在食物中毒裡面非典型那我們\n\n13:13.513 --> 13:30.225\n大家都是個案自行看到新聞去通報居多居多啦那我們在制度面沒有說檢討一下如果第一線看到發現奇怪的非典型症狀的大家要一個通報機制免得\n\n13:31.306 --> 13:53.413\n一個小吃攤在一個社區抓得到一個學校食物中毒很明顯可是這一種樣態今天這一種樣態未來在制度面要怎麼會知道如果不是爆料大家這個還以為是個人健康出問題這種事情未來怎麼樣可以大家可以接住不是透過爆料\n\n13:55.422 --> 14:02.192\n這個還是在通報的整合啦這個部分的話可能還是有那什麼狀況才要通報?什麼狀況不用通報?\n\n14:04.153 --> 14:26.030\n醫院是24小時,如果有兩個以上同時發生的就要通報。那也要同一家醫院有兩個啊?對對對,或者是說有死亡的案例的話就應該就要通報。你要到死亡,到現在為止13例裡面兩個死亡還不同醫院欸。每年夏天就知道,整個案例一大堆案子。我們這種極限……\n\n14:28.232 --> 14:44.362\n急性的集體中毒的風險,它的通報機制,你要設計一下吧,也要檢討一下啦。所以這一個部分就是怎麼樣快速的把這些分散的個案能夠資料的集中。\n\n14:44.582 --> 14:55.670\n所以這個制度面執行上有必要去檢討啊透過這個悲劇然後我們要從這個失敗挫折的地方有缺失造成人命傷亡的狀況我們要學的教訓啊是啦這當然有必要再進一步建立\n\n15:02.455 --> 15:03.436\n臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.429,"end":9.373,"text":"主席,我是不是再請我們部長?請部長。委員好。"},{"start":23.141,"end":39.074,"text":"今天的這個議題很重要不過還有更緊急的事情就是我們這個保齡查釋的這個重大的食安的問題要就教於你你知道現在到底是有幾個個案幾個死亡幾個加護病房嗎"},{"start":40.175,"end":52.958,"text":"目前正式有通報有大概13位但是昨天晚上還是今天早上又多了一位是在台南的你知道我覺得我代替所有台灣的消費者來這裡講一句話我覺得看到這些新聞這重大的這個食物中毒事件對我們來講我覺得太冤枉了對人民來講我們每一個看到這些死亡和重傷的人來講都覺得太冤枉了"},{"start":68.121,"end":94.788,"text":"再來就是說我覺得還有一個很大的感觸是為什麼這麼重大的食安中毒事件竟然是透過媒體爆料啊沒有 這個還是有通報系統我告訴你整個案件哪些現在的13例有哪幾例有幾例是看到新聞才自己來主動通報哪幾例是在新聞露出26號以後才通報這個"},{"start":96.997,"end":114.285,"text":"這個大概用時間去切是不太對,但是不是,這個當然是因為包括後面自己主動來通報都是說我是看新聞才知道我是看新聞然後包括醫院都說我們看到新聞以後才回溯才通報"},{"start":115.385,"end":136.392,"text":"第一個是因為有這個第一例死亡的友人3月25號的晚上半夜將近10點然後新聞露出說因為去元柏吃了保齡茶室的這個用餐以後急救然後回天罰數25號的半夜"},{"start":139.173,"end":165.99,"text":"然後26號所有的新聞才露出然後呢很多人看到這個新聞露出以後才說我的症狀也是我的症狀也是我的意思是說如果你沒有看到這個新聞露出即便你們3月24號新北市、臺北市政府都接獲通報了24號地方政府都接獲通報了因為死亡的個案有通報上去嘛"},{"start":167.214,"end":188.369,"text":"但是因為那個死亡的個案很清楚的知道他的友人很清楚的知道我們是去原百吃了保齡的這個素食的龜仔條之後馬上有急重症出現所以他個人很清楚靠著這個個人很強的維基意識通報了市政府"},{"start":189.19,"end":211.646,"text":"然後新北市才通報臺北市但我是要講說這個都建立在這一個個人我以為那個是醫院通報的我說好那沒關係我現在要告訴你說現在這個看新聞才知道我們很多人主動通報是看新聞的如果不是看這個新聞的話每一個個案在醫院裡面"},{"start":212.947,"end":241.336,"text":"自己上吐下瀉然後呢這個常衛性包括第二名死亡的陽性老翁他醫院還認為他是諾羅病毒感染他本來判定他是諾羅病毒感染如果不是有這個新聞露出的話大家會不會在各自的醫院裡面都覺得這個健康問題是來自於個人因素"},{"start":242.296,"end":256.94,"text":"如果沒有這個新聞露出即便你們24號醫院通報地方政府掌握都沒有新聞露出的話根本就不知道這個原因是來自於保齡的素食歸押屌的事件啊"},{"start":258.548,"end":278.289,"text":"我們可能不能夠單純用這樣簡單的去講,因為本來每一個這種中毒事件的話,它會如果不是集體送到一家醫院去的時候,它本來就...欸對,你講對了,因為不是集體,因為它是大型百貨公司,所以不是一個小社區裡面的小池灘"},{"start":279.21,"end":300.12,"text":"大型百貨公司來自於消費人口來自於可能是全台灣的所以他的狀況一發生送到全台灣各地的診所大醫院每個個案如果不是因為新聞露出你會覺得這是個人健康問題直到新聞露出才會發現說這是一個集體的"},{"start":303.883,"end":312.962,"text":"這個中毒事件所以就是說個案在可能分散在各個醫院當他一起通報過來的時候我們才能夠知道整個的狀況"},{"start":315.455,"end":340.655,"text":"二十四號就有通報了但是新聞露出是二十六號我覺得冤枉在哪裡你知道嗎從十九號用餐二十號沒有個案二一、二二、二三都有拖了五天這個案例是五天這麼長的時間而每一個發病的人都是急性的肝衰竭、酸血、酸中毒"},{"start":341.576,"end":359.75,"text":"五天到新聞露出是第七天19、20、21、22、23第六天有通報第七天新聞露出但是不明顯第八天才新聞露出大家才大量的通報進來連醫院"},{"start":362.452,"end":372.42,"text":"的這些第一線的義務人員也沒有經驗然後他們後來透過回溯才發現說你們要求他們要回溯通報嗎?"},{"start":374.102,"end":387.994,"text":"所以我的意思是說他願望是19、20、21、22、23這五天如果警覺意識高一點19是第一次第一次我告訴你第一要不症狀出來要怎麼知道我知道啦但是二十一號就很快啦對啦二十二號二十二號就在ICU裡面的了啦而且"},{"start":402.126,"end":414.233,"text":"那個第一例死亡第一例死亡的時候是24號但24號之前就很多個人都在醫院各個醫院全台灣各種醫院嘛但我現在告訴你這個19、20、21、22、23"},{"start":418.735,"end":435.952,"text":"五天再加上通報的第六天再加上新聞露出的第八天這時間拖太長了明明就很早就發病可是因為在各自獨立的醫院大家都沒有看過這種病沒有這種意識然後現在我要再問你有檢驗方法嗎有檢驗方法嗎"},{"start":438.795,"end":459.265,"text":"目前的話是要看檢驗什麼東西因為目前還不知道你們昨天次長說很像是米酵菌酸中毒對很像是這一個啦這可能性最大但是這個米酵菌酸的這個檢驗因為我們現在沒有標準品所以標準品的購置可能下個禮拜才會進來"},{"start":460.845,"end":464.868,"text":"這個就是我們要講我現在跟你講說我們對於新型態的食物中毒危機意識很弱你知道中國15年間從2005年到2020年他們有中毒了188例死亡了85例病死率45.21%而且他們發表在他們的中國食品衛生雜誌"},{"start":484.102,"end":509.507,"text":"有一篇期刊論文,2005-2020中國的唐昌普·伯克霍爾德氏菌中毒的世界流行病學分析所以他們在裡面累計的報告有188例而且較大級別就是重大的級別的重大事件他的這個就佔了全部188例裡面93.33%,160例死亡的"},{"start":515.37,"end":525.624,"text":"這個85例就有重大級別還有這個死亡人數其實我們要講的是說我要再告訴你喔這邊期刊來講喔"},{"start":528.342,"end":551.738,"text":"這個30件,總的30件,嚴重了28件裡面有30件裡面有14件有檢出唐昌普、伯克、霍爾德氏菌8件驗出米酵菌酸28件由穀類發酵製品引起2件由木耳引起16件沒有檢出唐昌普、伯克、霍爾德氏菌"},{"start":552.899,"end":561.364,"text":"十六件,三十件裡面有十六件檢驗不出來他們是依據症狀去回推的我們現在是連檢體都沒有,連菌都沒有了台灣從來沒有發生過這種現象"},{"start":572.995,"end":582.805,"text":"中國有這樣的一個報告但是這一個可能發生問題的產品大部分就是米或者是椰子我們沒有從中國進口"},{"start":585.202,"end":606.907,"text":"對現在中國也是因為衛生條件太差的製造條件才發生這些事件而我們是在一個大百貨公司裡面所以你讓人家很焦慮啊再來就是說這個案件我們要大家過去就沒有發生過沒有危機意識然後一發生也沒有辦法調查原因因為連簡體都沒有也沒辦法比對"},{"start":608.207,"end":633.457,"text":"標準品沒有啦,檢體現在是有收集啦檢體有,現在是那個樣本標準品標準品沒有因為沒有這個菌種,這個唐昌柏柏克氏菌倒不是這一個,是主要是那個米效菌酸的標準品也沒有因為如果說加熱之後可能那個細菌是死掉了但是這一個酸還在"},{"start":634.457,"end":659.763,"text":"好我現在再告訴你一個結果發現這些這些不管是死亡或是在家務病房或普通病房或自行出院的現在我們靠的是責任險結果他的責任險過期了去年10月過期了你們對全臺灣所有的食品業食品營業者這種責任保險制你們有在追蹤嗎有在看他有沒有過期了嗎有沒有"},{"start":661.181,"end":670.908,"text":"他現在臨北市政府的保險不能過期啊?要怎麼做?因為這剛才停了沒多久啦什麼停了沒多久?一天就不會贏了因為他沒有資料付出啦嘛我現在要問你 你有什麼機制去處理這個問題?沒有?從來都沒有在檢查?有啦 有啦 有啊這個過期 去年10月過期到現在你說不可能每天去去年10月到現在半年了"},{"start":691.581,"end":692.923,"text":"因為這事實上也是這一家他準備這個月就要停業沒有"},{"start":701.744,"end":721.088,"text":"去年10月不管他準備不準備要停業,從去年10月責任險就過期了。對啦,這個應該也是需要去糾正。沒有啦,你們都不要說我們衛福部裡面是不是有些機制,把關的機制沒有好好的去,有什麼好的設計,未來還可以預防。"},{"start":725.009,"end":747.285,"text":"然後這次的確是有這個問題,為什麼這樣承認會這麼困難呢?沒有問題嗎?你們衛福部裡面的人?沒有,這一個部分的話,其實是...制度面有沒有問題?執行面啊?我們有去查核,定期查核這些食品、餐飲的這一個行業的話,要去看責任保險"},{"start":748.766,"end":773.9,"text":"但是實際上去看的是地方政府所以我們這個會再跟地方政府這邊再加強啦就加強去聯繫也就是說可能去對嘛所以不管如何雖然是地方政府、中央政府都一樣對人民來講都叫做政府你如果告訴我們每一個消費者你的消費如果出問題了每一個廠商我們對他要求的這個保險責任都仍然可以接住你"},{"start":775.287,"end":791.752,"text":"我們想要聽這個第二個現在未來這種流行病學上的或者是罕見的這些中毒事件的我想會越來越多這種樣態會發生但它非典型的症狀在食物中毒裡面非典型那我們"},{"start":793.513,"end":810.225,"text":"大家都是個案自行看到新聞去通報居多居多啦那我們在制度面沒有說檢討一下如果第一線看到發現奇怪的非典型症狀的大家要一個通報機制免得"},{"start":811.306,"end":833.413,"text":"一個小吃攤在一個社區抓得到一個學校食物中毒很明顯可是這一種樣態今天這一種樣態未來在制度面要怎麼會知道如果不是爆料大家這個還以為是個人健康出問題這種事情未來怎麼樣可以大家可以接住不是透過爆料"},{"start":835.422,"end":842.192,"text":"這個還是在通報的整合啦這個部分的話可能還是有那什麼狀況才要通報?什麼狀況不用通報?"},{"start":844.153,"end":866.03,"text":"醫院是24小時,如果有兩個以上同時發生的就要通報。那也要同一家醫院有兩個啊?對對對,或者是說有死亡的案例的話就應該就要通報。你要到死亡,到現在為止13例裡面兩個死亡還不同醫院欸。每年夏天就知道,整個案例一大堆案子。我們這種極限……"},{"start":868.232,"end":884.362,"text":"急性的集體中毒的風險,它的通報機制,你要設計一下吧,也要檢討一下啦。所以這一個部分就是怎麼樣快速的把這些分散的個案能夠資料的集中。"},{"start":884.582,"end":895.67,"text":"所以這個制度面執行上有必要去檢討啊透過這個悲劇然後我們要從這個失敗挫折的地方有缺失造成人命傷亡的狀況我們要學的教訓啊是啦 這當然有必要再進一步建立"},{"start":902.455,"end":903.436,"text":"臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告"}]}}}}