{"id":150579,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150579","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fc09d97f3151fdf418baa627cf7e1bc3836925fc87402eef8ba9b0039caa7a65b63c472636971245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"09:54:59 - 10:04:27","影片長度":"00:09:28","會議時間":"2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。（3月27日及28日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-5"},"date":"2024-03-28","duration":568,"end_time":"2024-03-28T10:04:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-28T09:54:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":227,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（9時55分）主席，請核安會主任委員，陳東陽主委。"],["主席：好，有請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委你好，也謝謝跟你在立法院之前就有過短暫的交流，我沒有發現你真的是被主委耽誤的語言天才。","其實剛剛葛如鈞委員問的問題是很清楚的，他問核能到底安不安全，你的回答是：有發生事情就是不安全，沒發生就是安全。這就好比我們問警察局長說：我們現在治安好嗎？他說：有發生槍案就是不好，沒發生就是好。然後我們問說：你健不健康？有生病就是不健康，沒生病就是健康。我覺得一個核安會主委講出這樣的話，你真的對你的業務非常沒有信心，因為你的工作就是要確保核安的安全，所以我是你的話……"],["陳主任委員東陽：一個複雜的問題，其實沒辦法用很簡單的一句話來回答……"],["葉委員元之：對，但是你的工作就是要讓核安變安全嘛！"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以其實你應該要講說……"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們其實是從專業的角度來面對這個問題，其實它不是一個Yes and No……"],["葉委員元之：那什麼情況之下是不安全的？"],["陳主任委員東陽：發生事情，比如說日本的核災，那就是不安全。"],["葉委員元之：好，你講到日本核災，我就跟你繼續……"],["陳主任委員東陽：311，或者是最近的能登半島，除役中的核電廠都產生一些問題，今年1月1號……"],["葉委員元之：主委，謝謝，你講到日本核災，我繼續跟你討論，我延續剛剛葛如鈞委員的問題，他說現在有很多半導體業者希望能夠發展核電廠，但是半導體業者發展的是小型核電廠──SMR，可是現在SMR在美國也遇到了一些問題，所以他們的股價也都下跌了。有一個核四的前廠長叫王伯輝，不知道你認識嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：認識。"],["葉委員元之：不認識？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我看過很多他的文章。"],["葉委員元之：他有一個觀點，也利用這個機會跟你就教一下他說現在小型核電廠既然有些問題，半導體業者不如就直接接收核四廠，現在我們核四廠因為公投沒過嘛！所以核四要重啟是不太可能，但是如果由半導體業者來接手，也許又是一個方向。王伯輝說：有一個大導演叫奧利佛史東，他拍了一個新核能時代電影，不知道主委你有看嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我沒有看，但是我看過預告片，我也知道整個whole story。"],["葉委員元之：對，他是這樣講啦，他說要建立目前最安全、最佳的核電廠，其實它的原型就是臺灣的核四廠，所以意思就是，連大導演奧利佛史東都非常認同核四廠是安全的。","再來，他說柯P有跟他講，你剛剛講到日本福島電廠，福島電廠的人告訴柯P，如果福島電廠有臺灣核四廠的這種設計的話，不會發生福島核災啦！所以如果你用福島核災來比喻臺灣的核四，實際上不是完全可以類比的，為什麼呢？我想請教一下主委，你知道我們核四廠有一些特殊設計是福島電廠沒有的，你知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：就是有一個深水池在最高的地方，海拔比較高的地方有一個水……"],["葉委員元之：有一個深水池嘛，這是福島沒有的，還有什麼是福島沒有的，你知道嗎？我跟你講啦，就是在它燃料池的上方有3個很大的開口，所以不至於會發生氣爆。我覺得你身為核能會的主委，要對我們自己蓋出來的核四廠有信心啦！不見得會發生日本那樣的狀態。","再來就是大家非常擔心核廢料的問題，實際上在核四廠裡面有一個山凹，它可以儲存兩萬桶的核廢料，40年都不必運出，所以核廢料問題，40年大家也不用擔心，因為都是在核四廠裡面嘛！實際上核一、核二、核三現在也都有產生核廢料，那它現在放在哪裡？就是放在核電廠裡面嘛！對吧？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["葉委員元之：你們核安會去看這些核廢料有產生安全的疑慮嗎？有沒有？"],["陳主任委員東陽：現在其實在濕式貯存，那下一個階段要到乾式貯存……"],["葉委員元之：我現在就問，現階段有沒有問題，現階段有沒有安全性的問題，有沒有？"],["陳主任委員東陽：現階段是沒有，但是我們……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，好，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們還是在是……"],["葉委員元之：是，所以也謝謝主委，你也講了，現階段核廢料沒有安全的問題，現在大家吵的是說要把它移到乾式貯存槽，那現在核二廠乾式貯存槽的部分，台電到底去跟新北市政府申請了沒？因為新北市政府現在是說核可了，那台電到底去申請了沒？"],["陳主任委員東陽：乾式貯存室內的部分，室外的部分，我剛才有講過，就是兩方還有一些司法上的爭議，就是水土保持一個是開始展延，一個是完工展延……"],["葉委員元之：那室內的部分要去申請嗎？因為室內新北市政府說核可了嘛……"],["陳主任委員東陽：對，室內部分行政院也已經核可了，但是它要到明年（114年）的7月才會招標……"],["葉委員元之：好，主委，第一個這個要快；第二，我們不管講什麼濕式貯存槽、乾式貯存槽，它都是一個暫時性的儲放空間，這也就是為什麼新北市政府過去非常反對要蓋乾式貯存槽，因為他們擔心蓋了乾式貯存槽之後，我們的政府就不幫他移出，就變成永久的貯存場。所以我現在想要問你，我們要終極解決這個問題，現在我們的終極貯存場你到底有沒有計畫？因為按照之前原能會或是核安會的規劃，我們有一個計畫應該是要在114年要完成處置場的概念設計，然後115年要完成候選場址的特殊調查跟評估，我先問114年要完成處置場概念設計，這個有在進行嗎？因為今年已經113年了。"],["陳主任委員東陽：我跟委員報告，這個部分的工作，現在其實是經濟部在負責……"],["葉委員元之：是經濟部，那你們有沒有去瞭解？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是。我們就安全的部分即時提供一些準則跟法規給他們參考……"],["葉委員元之：就你瞭解他們現在進行到什麼階段了？"],["陳主任委員東陽：第二個階段，第二個階段就是在選址……"],["葉委員元之：第二個階段是指選址？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以你認為經濟部在115年可以確定我們的永久核廢料貯存場在哪裡嗎？現在的方向是什麼？大概的方向。"],["陳主任委員東陽：現在是在第二階段的中間，然後大概是前後還有5年的空間……"],["葉委員元之：5年？可是115年就要完成調查跟評估，怎麼會有5年？"],["陳主任委員東陽：應該第二個階段還有5年……"],["葉委員元之：第二階段還有5年的意思是什麼？我這邊列出來的期程，也是之前你們提供給我們的報告……"],["陳主任委員東陽：是，是的。"],["葉委員元之：所以怎麼會有5年？5年的話是120年才會完成場址調查跟評估喔？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是，這個部分我會再給委員資料，我相信我的資料是對的。"],["葉委員元之：所以意思是說，以你的資料來講的話是120年才會完成選址，是不是？"],["陳主任委員東陽：現在是113年，所以再5年應該是118年。"],["葉委員元之：118年？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["葉委員元之：我講的是115年再加5年，所以不是，你是說從今年再加5年就是118年，我們核廢料的最終貯存場會完成選址。那現在方向是要在哪裡？比如說舉例來講，是運到國外還是在地底，還是在山洞還是哪裡？你們現在的方向是哪裡？"],["陳主任委員東陽：方向這個部分，其實社會有一些爭議，地方有一些的concern，所以民眾溝通其實……"],["葉委員元之：不是，你要先有方向才有辦法去跟地方溝通，你的方向是哪裡？"],["陳主任委員東陽：剛才我跟委員報告，這個部分其實是台電跟經濟部在負責。"],["葉委員元之：但是台電跟經濟部一定會徵詢你們，因為他選地方，他要考慮有沒有安全性的問題，所以一定會徵詢你們，你會給他專業建議，那你認為哪裡比較安全？"],["陳主任委員東陽：要看地質條件，看鑽探的地質條件……"],["葉委員元之：你真的是語言天才，真的太厲害了，講來講去都是在繞圈圈。也謝謝主委，您剛剛有說，其實核廢料目前為止都是安全的，我想大家也不用過度恐懼，我們希望最終貯存場可以趕快確定，讓地方政府也不至於擔憂，這個問題才有可能得到終極的解決。另外，半導體業者要不要接受核四廠，我覺得你也可以評估一下，給他們一些建議，這或許是可以不缺電，大家不用漲電價一個好的解方。謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝葉委員。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，主委請回。我們接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-5","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","范雲","羅智強","李坤城","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","吳春城","林倩綺"],"page_start":323,"meetingDate":["2024-03-28"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132201_00005"}},"transcript":{"id":"150579","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150579","tool":"pyannote","id":"150579-pyannote"},"job_id":"NkI0tBgUCx5Nfxa5","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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乾事儲存潮它都是一個暫時性的一個儲放的空間嘛所以這也就是為什麼新北市政府過去非常反對要蓋乾事儲存潮\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 338.032, \"end\": 338.192, \"score\": 0.631}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 338.192, \"end\": 338.512, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 338.512, \"end\": 338.652, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"份\", \"start\": 338.652, \"end\": 338.812, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 338.812, \"end\": 338.932, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 338.932, \"end\": 339.353, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 339.353, \"end\": 339.473, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 339.473, \"end\": 339.613, \"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 339.613, \"end\": 339.633, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"份\", \"start\": 339.633, \"end\": 339.973, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 339.973, \"end\": 341.153, \"score\": 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00:00:15,174\n主席請找和安會主任委員陳東陽主委好有請陳主委葉委員好主委你好也謝謝就是之前有跟你有在這個立法院\n\n2\n00:00:25,342 --> 00:00:53,578\n之前就有一個短暫的一個交流我沒有發現說你真的是被主委耽誤的語言天才剛剛其實葛盧軍委員問的問題是很清楚的問說核能到底安不安全你回答是有發生事情就是不安全沒發生就是安全這個好比說我們問警察局長說我們現在治安好嗎他說有發生槍案就是不好沒發生就是好然後我們問說肚子你健不健康有生病就是不健康沒生病就是健康\n\n3\n00:00:54,518 --> 00:01:22,532\n這個我覺得以一個核安會主委講出這樣的話真的對你的業務非常的沒有信心因為你的工作就是要確保核安的安全所以我是你的話啦一個複雜的問題其實沒辦法用很簡單的一句話來講對但是因為你的工作就是要讓核安變安全嘛對我會想我們其實是從專業的角度來面對這個問題那什麼情況之下是不安全的發生事情比如說日本的核災它就是不安全\n\n4\n00:01:23,852 --> 00:01:36,598\n那你講到日本核災我就跟你繼續或者是我們最近的這個能登半島除役中的核電廠都產生一些問題各位謝謝你講到日本核災我繼續跟你討論我延續的剛剛葛無君委員的問題他說現在有很多半導體業者希望能夠發展那個核電廠但是半導體業者他發展是小型的他們講的應該是小型的核電廠\n\n5\n00:01:51,365 --> 00:01:51,405\n王博輝\n\n6\n00:02:07,443 --> 00:02:30,977\n我看過很多他的文章他有一個觀點也利用這個機會跟你就教一下他說小型核電廠現在竟然有些問題不如就半導體業者可以直接來接收核市場因為我們現在核市場因為公投沒過所以核四要重啟是不太可能但是如果由這個半導體業者他們來接手也許又是一個方向那這個王柏輝他說\n\n7\n00:02:32,358 --> 00:02:59,100\n有一個大導演叫奧利弗史東他拍了一個新核能時代電影不知道主委你有看嗎我沒有看但是我看過預告片我也知道整個wholestory對對對然後他是這樣講他講說裡面有說要建立目前最安全最佳的核電廠其實他的原型就是台灣的核四廠所以意思就是說連大導演奧利弗史東都非常的認同就是核四廠他是安全的\n\n8\n00:02:59,961 --> 00:03:04,649\n那再來就是實際上他說啦他說柯P有跟他講如果他說柯P說\n\n9\n00:03:07,748 --> 00:03:33,119\n你剛講到日本嘛福島電廠嘛福島電廠的人告訴柯P如果福島的電廠有台灣核四廠的這種設計的話不會發生福島核災啊所以如果你用福島核災來比喻台灣的核四實際上是不是完全可以類比的那為什麼呢我想請教一下主委你知道我們核四廠有一些特殊的設計是福島電廠沒有的你知道嗎\n\n10\n00:03:37,082 --> 00:03:47,475\n有一個深水池啦就是在最高的地方海拔比較高的地方有一個深水池嘛第一個是福島沒有的嘛再來還有一個什麼是福島沒有的你知道嗎\n\n11\n00:03:54,000 --> 00:04:12,996\n在他的燃料池的上方有三個很大的開口所以不至於會發生氣爆所以我覺得我們身為核能會的主委我們要對我們自己蓋出來的核市場要有信心就是說不見得會發生日本那樣的狀態然後再來就是大家非常擔心核廢料的問題實際上在\n\n12\n00:04:15,638 --> 00:04:44,673\n河市場裡面有一個山凹有一個山凹他可以儲存兩萬桶的核廢料那40年都不必運出所以核廢料問題40年大家也不用擔心因為都是在核市場裡面其實實際上核一核二核三現在也都產生核廢料那他現在放在哪裡就是放在核電廠裡面那根據那個核委會你們核安會你們去看這些核廢料有產生安全的疑慮嗎\n\n13\n00:04:49,139 --> 00:05:09,917\n現在其實在私事儲存那下一個階段要到幹事儲存我現在就問說現階段有沒有問題現階段有沒有安全性的問題有沒有現階段是沒有但是我們還是在是所以謝謝主委你也講了嘛現階段核廢料也沒有安全的問題嘛現在大家是找的是說要把它移到幹事儲存潮嗎\n\n14\n00:05:10,778 --> 00:05:37,262\n甘氏儲存現在和二廠的部分臺電去跟新北市政府到底申請了沒因為新北市政府現在是說核可啦臺電到底去申請了沒甘氏儲存室內的部分室外的部分他其實我剛才有講過就是兩方還有一些司法上的爭議這個隨途保持一個是開始展延一個是完工展延\n\n15\n00:05:38,032 --> 00:06:01,702\n在市內部份去申請嗎?因為市內部份行政院也已經合可了合可了嘛但是他要到明年的114年的7月才會照票對你要第一個齁這個要快啦第二第二齁我們其實不管講什麼失事儲存潮乾事儲存潮它都是一個暫時性的一個儲放的空間嘛所以這也就是為什麼新北市政府過去非常反對要蓋乾事儲存潮\n\n16\n00:06:03,283 --> 00:06:22,018\n因為他們擔心蓋了乾式儲存槽之後我們的政府就不幫他移出嘛就變成永久的儲存槽所以我現在想要問你啦我們現在要終極解決這個問題那你現在到底我們的終極的儲存槽你到底有沒有計畫因為按照好像之前元能會或是核安會的規劃\n\n17\n00:06:23,399 --> 00:06:40,285\n我們是有一個計劃嘛應該是要在114年要完成處置場的概念設計然後115年要完成候選場址的特殊調查跟評估我先問114年要完成處置場概念設計這個有在進行嗎因為今年已經113年了\n\n18\n00:06:42,266 --> 00:07:10,304\n我跟委員報告這個部分的工作現在其實是經濟部在負責是經濟部那你們有沒有去了解我們就安全的部分其實提供一些準則跟法規給他們參考就了解他們現在進行到什麼階段了第二個階段第二個階段就是在選紙選紙對所以在115年你認為經濟部在115年可以確定我們的永久核廢料儲存廠在哪裡嗎\n\n19\n00:07:12,299 --> 00:07:30,381\n現在方向是什麼大概方向現在是在第二階段的中間大概是在前後還有5年的空間5年可是115年就要完成調查跟評估怎麼會有5年應該是第二個階段應該還有5年第二階段還有5年意思是什麼\n\n20\n00:07:32,812 --> 00:07:53,279\n我這邊列出來的期程也是之前你們提供給我們的報告嗎?是的所以怎麼會有5年?5年的話是120年才會完成長子調查跟評估喔?是,我這個部分我會再給委員資料我相信我的資料是對的啦所以意思是說以你的資料來講的話是120年才會完成選址是不是?現在是112年\n\n21\n00:07:59,079 --> 00:08:18,037\n現在113年所以再5年應該是118年我講的是說115年再加5年所以不是你是說從今年再加5年118年我們核廢料的最終儲存廠會完成選址那現在方向是要在哪裡比如說舉例來講是運到國外還是在地底還是在山洞還是哪裡你們現在方向是哪裡\n\n22\n00:08:19,439 --> 00:08:44,733\n方向這個部分其實是社會有一些的爭議地方有一些的concern不是你要先有方向才有辦法去跟地方溝通嘛你的方向是哪裡嗎剛才我跟委員報告這個部分其實是台電跟經濟部在負責因為一定會徵詢你們嘛因為他選地方他要考慮有沒有安全性問題所以一定會徵詢你們嘛你會給他專業建議嘛那你認為哪裡比較安全\n\n23\n00:08:49,575 --> 00:09:06,093\n看這個地址條件然後這個專汰的地址條件你真的是語言天才真的太厲害了講來講去都是在繞圈圈我覺得這個也謝謝主委你剛剛有說就其實核廢料目前為止都是安全的我想大家也不用過度恐懼\n\n24\n00:09:07,194 --> 00:09:07,234\n好謝謝葉委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10211\t15174\t主席請找和安會主任委員陳東陽主委好有請陳主委葉委員好主委你好也謝謝就是之前有跟你有在這個立法院\n25342\t53578\t之前就有一個短暫的一個交流我沒有發現說你真的是被主委耽誤的語言天才剛剛其實葛盧軍委員問的問題是很清楚的問說核能到底安不安全你回答是有發生事情就是不安全沒發生就是安全這個好比說我們問警察局長說我們現在治安好嗎他說有發生槍案就是不好沒發生就是好然後我們問說肚子你健不健康有生病就是不健康沒生病就是健康\n54518\t82532\t這個我覺得以一個核安會主委講出這樣的話真的對你的業務非常的沒有信心因為你的工作就是要確保核安的安全所以我是你的話啦一個複雜的問題其實沒辦法用很簡單的一句話來講對 但是因為你的工作就是要讓核安變安全嘛對 我會想我們其實是從專業的角度來面對這個問題那什麼情況之下是不安全的發生事情 比如說日本的核災它就是不安全\n83852\t96598\t那你講到日本核災我就跟你繼續或者是我們最近的這個能登半島除役中的核電廠都產生一些問題各位謝謝你講到日本核災我繼續跟你討論我延續的剛剛葛無君委員的問題他說現在有很多半導體業者希望能夠發展那個核電廠但是半導體業者他發展是小型的他們講的應該是小型的核電廠\n111365\t111405\t王博輝\n127443\t150977\t我看過很多他的文章他有一個觀點也利用這個機會跟你就教一下他說小型核電廠現在竟然有些問題不如就半導體業者可以直接來接收核市場因為我們現在核市場因為公投沒過所以核四要重啟是不太可能但是如果由這個半導體業者他們來接手也許又是一個方向那這個王柏輝他說\n152358\t179100\t有一個大導演叫奧利弗史東他拍了一個新核能時代電影不知道主委你有看嗎我沒有看但是我看過預告片我也知道整個whole story對對對然後他是這樣講他講說裡面有說要建立目前最安全最佳的核電廠其實他的原型就是台灣的核四廠所以意思就是說連大導演奧利弗史東都非常的認同就是核四廠他是安全的\n179961\t184649\t那再來就是實際上他說啦他說柯P有跟他講如果他說柯P說\n187748\t213119\t你剛講到日本嘛福島電廠嘛福島電廠的人告訴柯P如果福島的電廠有台灣核四廠的這種設計的話不會發生福島核災啊所以如果你用福島核災來比喻台灣的核四實際上是不是完全可以類比的那為什麼呢我想請教一下主委你知道我們核四廠有一些特殊的設計是福島電廠沒有的你知道嗎\n217082\t227475\t有一個深水池啦就是在最高的地方海拔比較高的地方有一個深水池嘛第一個是福島沒有的嘛再來還有一個什麼是福島沒有的你知道嗎\n234000\t252996\t在他的燃料池的上方有三個很大的開口所以不至於會發生氣爆所以我覺得我們身為核能會的主委我們要對我們自己蓋出來的核市場要有信心就是說不見得會發生日本那樣的狀態然後再來就是大家非常擔心核廢料的問題實際上在\n255638\t284673\t河市場裡面有一個山凹有一個山凹他可以儲存兩萬桶的核廢料那40年都不必運出所以核廢料問題40年大家也不用擔心因為都是在核市場裡面其實實際上核一核二核三現在也都產生核廢料那他現在放在哪裡就是放在核電廠裡面那根據那個核委會你們核安會你們去看這些核廢料有產生安全的疑慮嗎\n289139\t309917\t現在其實在私事儲存那下一個階段要到幹事儲存我現在就問說現階段有沒有問題現階段有沒有安全性的問題有沒有現階段是沒有但是我們還是在是所以謝謝主委你也講了嘛現階段核廢料也沒有安全的問題嘛現在大家是找的是說要把它移到幹事儲存潮嗎\n310778\t337262\t甘氏儲存現在和二廠的部分臺電去跟新北市政府到底申請了沒因為新北市政府現在是說核可啦臺電到底去申請了沒甘氏儲存室內的部分室外的部分他其實我剛才有講過就是兩方還有一些司法上的爭議這個隨途保持一個是開始展延一個是完工展延\n338032\t361702\t在市內部份去申請嗎?因為市內部份行政院也已經合可了合可了嘛但是他要到明年的114年的7月才會照票對 你要第一個齁 這個要快啦第二 第二齁我們其實不管講什麼失事儲存潮 乾事儲存潮它都是一個暫時性的一個儲放的空間嘛所以這也就是為什麼新北市政府過去非常反對要蓋乾事儲存潮\n363283\t382018\t因為他們擔心蓋了乾式儲存槽之後我們的政府就不幫他移出嘛就變成永久的儲存槽所以我現在想要問你啦我們現在要終極解決這個問題那你現在到底我們的終極的儲存槽你到底有沒有計畫因為按照好像之前元能會或是核安會的規劃\n383399\t400285\t我們是有一個計劃嘛應該是要在114年要完成處置場的概念設計然後115年要完成候選場址的特殊調查跟評估我先問114年要完成處置場概念設計這個有在進行嗎因為今年已經113年了\n402266\t430304\t我跟委員報告這個部分的工作現在其實是經濟部在負責是經濟部那你們有沒有去了解我們就安全的部分其實提供一些準則跟法規給他們參考就了解他們現在進行到什麼階段了第二個階段第二個階段就是在選紙選紙對所以在115年你認為經濟部在115年可以確定我們的永久核廢料儲存廠在哪裡嗎\n432299\t450381\t現在方向是什麼大概方向現在是在第二階段的中間大概是在前後還有5年的空間5年可是115年就要完成調查跟評估怎麼會有5年應該是第二個階段應該還有5年第二階段還有5年意思是什麼\n452812\t473279\t我這邊列出來的期程也是之前你們提供給我們的報告嗎?是的所以怎麼會有5年?5年的話是120年才會完成長子調查跟評估喔?是,我這個部分我會再給委員資料我相信我的資料是對的啦所以意思是說以你的資料來講的話是120年才會完成選址是不是?現在是112年\n479079\t498037\t現在113年所以再5年應該是118年我講的是說115年再加5年所以不是你是說從今年再加5年118年我們核廢料的最終儲存廠會完成選址那現在方向是要在哪裡比如說舉例來講是運到國外還是在地底還是在山洞還是哪裡你們現在方向是哪裡\n499439\t524733\t方向這個部分其實是社會有一些的爭議地方有一些的concern不是你要先有方向才有辦法去跟地方溝通嘛你的方向是哪裡嗎剛才我跟委員報告這個部分其實是台電跟經濟部在負責因為一定會徵詢你們嘛因為他選地方他要考慮有沒有安全性問題所以一定會徵詢你們嘛你會給他專業建議嘛那你認為哪裡比較安全\n529575\t546093\t看這個地址條件然後這個專汰的地址條件你真的是語言天才真的太厲害了講來講去都是在繞圈圈我覺得這個也謝謝主委你剛剛有說就其實核廢料目前為止都是安全的我想大家也不用過度恐懼\n547194\t547234\t好 謝謝葉委員\n","txt":"主席請找和安會主任委員陳東陽主委好有請陳主委葉委員好主委你好也謝謝就是之前有跟你有在這個立法院\n之前就有一個短暫的一個交流我沒有發現說你真的是被主委耽誤的語言天才剛剛其實葛盧軍委員問的問題是很清楚的問說核能到底安不安全你回答是有發生事情就是不安全沒發生就是安全這個好比說我們問警察局長說我們現在治安好嗎他說有發生槍案就是不好沒發生就是好然後我們問說肚子你健不健康有生病就是不健康沒生病就是健康\n這個我覺得以一個核安會主委講出這樣的話真的對你的業務非常的沒有信心因為你的工作就是要確保核安的安全所以我是你的話啦一個複雜的問題其實沒辦法用很簡單的一句話來講對 但是因為你的工作就是要讓核安變安全嘛對 我會想我們其實是從專業的角度來面對這個問題那什麼情況之下是不安全的發生事情 比如說日本的核災它就是不安全\n那你講到日本核災我就跟你繼續或者是我們最近的這個能登半島除役中的核電廠都產生一些問題各位謝謝你講到日本核災我繼續跟你討論我延續的剛剛葛無君委員的問題他說現在有很多半導體業者希望能夠發展那個核電廠但是半導體業者他發展是小型的他們講的應該是小型的核電廠\n王博輝\n我看過很多他的文章他有一個觀點也利用這個機會跟你就教一下他說小型核電廠現在竟然有些問題不如就半導體業者可以直接來接收核市場因為我們現在核市場因為公投沒過所以核四要重啟是不太可能但是如果由這個半導體業者他們來接手也許又是一個方向那這個王柏輝他說\n有一個大導演叫奧利弗史東他拍了一個新核能時代電影不知道主委你有看嗎我沒有看但是我看過預告片我也知道整個whole story對對對然後他是這樣講他講說裡面有說要建立目前最安全最佳的核電廠其實他的原型就是台灣的核四廠所以意思就是說連大導演奧利弗史東都非常的認同就是核四廠他是安全的\n那再來就是實際上他說啦他說柯P有跟他講如果他說柯P說\n你剛講到日本嘛福島電廠嘛福島電廠的人告訴柯P如果福島的電廠有台灣核四廠的這種設計的話不會發生福島核災啊所以如果你用福島核災來比喻台灣的核四實際上是不是完全可以類比的那為什麼呢我想請教一下主委你知道我們核四廠有一些特殊的設計是福島電廠沒有的你知道嗎\n有一個深水池啦就是在最高的地方海拔比較高的地方有一個深水池嘛第一個是福島沒有的嘛再來還有一個什麼是福島沒有的你知道嗎\n在他的燃料池的上方有三個很大的開口所以不至於會發生氣爆所以我覺得我們身為核能會的主委我們要對我們自己蓋出來的核市場要有信心就是說不見得會發生日本那樣的狀態然後再來就是大家非常擔心核廢料的問題實際上在\n河市場裡面有一個山凹有一個山凹他可以儲存兩萬桶的核廢料那40年都不必運出所以核廢料問題40年大家也不用擔心因為都是在核市場裡面其實實際上核一核二核三現在也都產生核廢料那他現在放在哪裡就是放在核電廠裡面那根據那個核委會你們核安會你們去看這些核廢料有產生安全的疑慮嗎\n現在其實在私事儲存那下一個階段要到幹事儲存我現在就問說現階段有沒有問題現階段有沒有安全性的問題有沒有現階段是沒有但是我們還是在是所以謝謝主委你也講了嘛現階段核廢料也沒有安全的問題嘛現在大家是找的是說要把它移到幹事儲存潮嗎\n甘氏儲存現在和二廠的部分臺電去跟新北市政府到底申請了沒因為新北市政府現在是說核可啦臺電到底去申請了沒甘氏儲存室內的部分室外的部分他其實我剛才有講過就是兩方還有一些司法上的爭議這個隨途保持一個是開始展延一個是完工展延\n在市內部份去申請嗎?因為市內部份行政院也已經合可了合可了嘛但是他要到明年的114年的7月才會照票對 你要第一個齁 這個要快啦第二 第二齁我們其實不管講什麼失事儲存潮 乾事儲存潮它都是一個暫時性的一個儲放的空間嘛所以這也就是為什麼新北市政府過去非常反對要蓋乾事儲存潮\n因為他們擔心蓋了乾式儲存槽之後我們的政府就不幫他移出嘛就變成永久的儲存槽所以我現在想要問你啦我們現在要終極解決這個問題那你現在到底我們的終極的儲存槽你到底有沒有計畫因為按照好像之前元能會或是核安會的規劃\n我們是有一個計劃嘛應該是要在114年要完成處置場的概念設計然後115年要完成候選場址的特殊調查跟評估我先問114年要完成處置場概念設計這個有在進行嗎因為今年已經113年了\n我跟委員報告這個部分的工作現在其實是經濟部在負責是經濟部那你們有沒有去了解我們就安全的部分其實提供一些準則跟法規給他們參考就了解他們現在進行到什麼階段了第二個階段第二個階段就是在選紙選紙對所以在115年你認為經濟部在115年可以確定我們的永久核廢料儲存廠在哪裡嗎\n現在方向是什麼大概方向現在是在第二階段的中間大概是在前後還有5年的空間5年可是115年就要完成調查跟評估怎麼會有5年應該是第二個階段應該還有5年第二階段還有5年意思是什麼\n我這邊列出來的期程也是之前你們提供給我們的報告嗎?是的所以怎麼會有5年?5年的話是120年才會完成長子調查跟評估喔?是,我這個部分我會再給委員資料我相信我的資料是對的啦所以意思是說以你的資料來講的話是120年才會完成選址是不是?現在是112年\n現在113年所以再5年應該是118年我講的是說115年再加5年所以不是你是說從今年再加5年118年我們核廢料的最終儲存廠會完成選址那現在方向是要在哪裡比如說舉例來講是運到國外還是在地底還是在山洞還是哪裡你們現在方向是哪裡\n方向這個部分其實是社會有一些的爭議地方有一些的concern不是你要先有方向才有辦法去跟地方溝通嘛你的方向是哪裡嗎剛才我跟委員報告這個部分其實是台電跟經濟部在負責因為一定會徵詢你們嘛因為他選地方他要考慮有沒有安全性問題所以一定會徵詢你們嘛你會給他專業建議嘛那你認為哪裡比較安全\n看這個地址條件然後這個專汰的地址條件你真的是語言天才真的太厲害了講來講去都是在繞圈圈我覺得這個也謝謝主委你剛剛有說就其實核廢料目前為止都是安全的我想大家也不用過度恐懼\n好 謝謝葉委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.211 --> 00:15.174\n主席請找和安會主任委員陳東陽主委好有請陳主委葉委員好主委你好也謝謝就是之前有跟你有在這個立法院\n\n00:25.342 --> 00:53.578\n之前就有一個短暫的一個交流我沒有發現說你真的是被主委耽誤的語言天才剛剛其實葛盧軍委員問的問題是很清楚的問說核能到底安不安全你回答是有發生事情就是不安全沒發生就是安全這個好比說我們問警察局長說我們現在治安好嗎他說有發生槍案就是不好沒發生就是好然後我們問說肚子你健不健康有生病就是不健康沒生病就是健康\n\n00:54.518 --> 01:22.532\n這個我覺得以一個核安會主委講出這樣的話真的對你的業務非常的沒有信心因為你的工作就是要確保核安的安全所以我是你的話啦一個複雜的問題其實沒辦法用很簡單的一句話來講對但是因為你的工作就是要讓核安變安全嘛對我會想我們其實是從專業的角度來面對這個問題那什麼情況之下是不安全的發生事情比如說日本的核災它就是不安全\n\n01:23.852 --> 01:36.598\n那你講到日本核災我就跟你繼續或者是我們最近的這個能登半島除役中的核電廠都產生一些問題各位謝謝你講到日本核災我繼續跟你討論我延續的剛剛葛無君委員的問題他說現在有很多半導體業者希望能夠發展那個核電廠但是半導體業者他發展是小型的他們講的應該是小型的核電廠\n\n01:51.365 --> 01:51.405\n王博輝\n\n02:07.443 --> 02:30.977\n我看過很多他的文章他有一個觀點也利用這個機會跟你就教一下他說小型核電廠現在竟然有些問題不如就半導體業者可以直接來接收核市場因為我們現在核市場因為公投沒過所以核四要重啟是不太可能但是如果由這個半導體業者他們來接手也許又是一個方向那這個王柏輝他說\n\n02:32.358 --> 02:59.100\n有一個大導演叫奧利弗史東他拍了一個新核能時代電影不知道主委你有看嗎我沒有看但是我看過預告片我也知道整個wholestory對對對然後他是這樣講他講說裡面有說要建立目前最安全最佳的核電廠其實他的原型就是台灣的核四廠所以意思就是說連大導演奧利弗史東都非常的認同就是核四廠他是安全的\n\n02:59.961 --> 03:04.649\n那再來就是實際上他說啦他說柯P有跟他講如果他說柯P說\n\n03:07.748 --> 03:33.119\n你剛講到日本嘛福島電廠嘛福島電廠的人告訴柯P如果福島的電廠有台灣核四廠的這種設計的話不會發生福島核災啊所以如果你用福島核災來比喻台灣的核四實際上是不是完全可以類比的那為什麼呢我想請教一下主委你知道我們核四廠有一些特殊的設計是福島電廠沒有的你知道嗎\n\n03:37.082 --> 03:47.475\n有一個深水池啦就是在最高的地方海拔比較高的地方有一個深水池嘛第一個是福島沒有的嘛再來還有一個什麼是福島沒有的你知道嗎\n\n03:54.000 --> 04:12.996\n在他的燃料池的上方有三個很大的開口所以不至於會發生氣爆所以我覺得我們身為核能會的主委我們要對我們自己蓋出來的核市場要有信心就是說不見得會發生日本那樣的狀態然後再來就是大家非常擔心核廢料的問題實際上在\n\n04:15.638 --> 04:44.673\n河市場裡面有一個山凹有一個山凹他可以儲存兩萬桶的核廢料那40年都不必運出所以核廢料問題40年大家也不用擔心因為都是在核市場裡面其實實際上核一核二核三現在也都產生核廢料那他現在放在哪裡就是放在核電廠裡面那根據那個核委會你們核安會你們去看這些核廢料有產生安全的疑慮嗎\n\n04:49.139 --> 05:09.917\n現在其實在私事儲存那下一個階段要到幹事儲存我現在就問說現階段有沒有問題現階段有沒有安全性的問題有沒有現階段是沒有但是我們還是在是所以謝謝主委你也講了嘛現階段核廢料也沒有安全的問題嘛現在大家是找的是說要把它移到幹事儲存潮嗎\n\n05:10.778 --> 05:37.262\n甘氏儲存現在和二廠的部分臺電去跟新北市政府到底申請了沒因為新北市政府現在是說核可啦臺電到底去申請了沒甘氏儲存室內的部分室外的部分他其實我剛才有講過就是兩方還有一些司法上的爭議這個隨途保持一個是開始展延一個是完工展延\n\n05:38.032 --> 06:01.702\n在市內部份去申請嗎?因為市內部份行政院也已經合可了合可了嘛但是他要到明年的114年的7月才會照票對你要第一個齁這個要快啦第二第二齁我們其實不管講什麼失事儲存潮乾事儲存潮它都是一個暫時性的一個儲放的空間嘛所以這也就是為什麼新北市政府過去非常反對要蓋乾事儲存潮\n\n06:03.283 --> 06:22.018\n因為他們擔心蓋了乾式儲存槽之後我們的政府就不幫他移出嘛就變成永久的儲存槽所以我現在想要問你啦我們現在要終極解決這個問題那你現在到底我們的終極的儲存槽你到底有沒有計畫因為按照好像之前元能會或是核安會的規劃\n\n06:23.399 --> 06:40.285\n我們是有一個計劃嘛應該是要在114年要完成處置場的概念設計然後115年要完成候選場址的特殊調查跟評估我先問114年要完成處置場概念設計這個有在進行嗎因為今年已經113年了\n\n06:42.266 --> 07:10.304\n我跟委員報告這個部分的工作現在其實是經濟部在負責是經濟部那你們有沒有去了解我們就安全的部分其實提供一些準則跟法規給他們參考就了解他們現在進行到什麼階段了第二個階段第二個階段就是在選紙選紙對所以在115年你認為經濟部在115年可以確定我們的永久核廢料儲存廠在哪裡嗎\n\n07:12.299 --> 07:30.381\n現在方向是什麼大概方向現在是在第二階段的中間大概是在前後還有5年的空間5年可是115年就要完成調查跟評估怎麼會有5年應該是第二個階段應該還有5年第二階段還有5年意思是什麼\n\n07:32.812 --> 07:53.279\n我這邊列出來的期程也是之前你們提供給我們的報告嗎?是的所以怎麼會有5年?5年的話是120年才會完成長子調查跟評估喔?是,我這個部分我會再給委員資料我相信我的資料是對的啦所以意思是說以你的資料來講的話是120年才會完成選址是不是?現在是112年\n\n07:59.079 --> 08:18.037\n現在113年所以再5年應該是118年我講的是說115年再加5年所以不是你是說從今年再加5年118年我們核廢料的最終儲存廠會完成選址那現在方向是要在哪裡比如說舉例來講是運到國外還是在地底還是在山洞還是哪裡你們現在方向是哪裡\n\n08:19.439 --> 08:44.733\n方向這個部分其實是社會有一些的爭議地方有一些的concern不是你要先有方向才有辦法去跟地方溝通嘛你的方向是哪裡嗎剛才我跟委員報告這個部分其實是台電跟經濟部在負責因為一定會徵詢你們嘛因為他選地方他要考慮有沒有安全性問題所以一定會徵詢你們嘛你會給他專業建議嘛那你認為哪裡比較安全\n\n08:49.575 --> 09:06.093\n看這個地址條件然後這個專汰的地址條件你真的是語言天才真的太厲害了講來講去都是在繞圈圈我覺得這個也謝謝主委你剛剛有說就其實核廢料目前為止都是安全的我想大家也不用過度恐懼\n\n09:07.194 --> 09:07.234\n好謝謝葉委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.211,"end":15.174,"text":"主席請找和安會主任委員陳東陽主委好有請陳主委葉委員好主委你好也謝謝就是之前有跟你有在這個立法院"},{"start":25.342,"end":53.578,"text":"之前就有一個短暫的一個交流我沒有發現說你真的是被主委耽誤的語言天才剛剛其實葛盧軍委員問的問題是很清楚的問說核能到底安不安全你回答是有發生事情就是不安全沒發生就是安全這個好比說我們問警察局長說我們現在治安好嗎他說有發生槍案就是不好沒發生就是好然後我們問說肚子你健不健康有生病就是不健康沒生病就是健康"},{"start":54.518,"end":82.532,"text":"這個我覺得以一個核安會主委講出這樣的話真的對你的業務非常的沒有信心因為你的工作就是要確保核安的安全所以我是你的話啦一個複雜的問題其實沒辦法用很簡單的一句話來講對 但是因為你的工作就是要讓核安變安全嘛對 我會想我們其實是從專業的角度來面對這個問題那什麼情況之下是不安全的發生事情 比如說日本的核災它就是不安全"},{"start":83.852,"end":96.598,"text":"那你講到日本核災我就跟你繼續或者是我們最近的這個能登半島除役中的核電廠都產生一些問題各位謝謝你講到日本核災我繼續跟你討論我延續的剛剛葛無君委員的問題他說現在有很多半導體業者希望能夠發展那個核電廠但是半導體業者他發展是小型的他們講的應該是小型的核電廠"},{"start":111.365,"end":111.405,"text":"王博輝"},{"start":127.443,"end":150.977,"text":"我看過很多他的文章他有一個觀點也利用這個機會跟你就教一下他說小型核電廠現在竟然有些問題不如就半導體業者可以直接來接收核市場因為我們現在核市場因為公投沒過所以核四要重啟是不太可能但是如果由這個半導體業者他們來接手也許又是一個方向那這個王柏輝他說"},{"start":152.358,"end":179.1,"text":"有一個大導演叫奧利弗史東他拍了一個新核能時代電影不知道主委你有看嗎我沒有看但是我看過預告片我也知道整個whole story對對對然後他是這樣講他講說裡面有說要建立目前最安全最佳的核電廠其實他的原型就是台灣的核四廠所以意思就是說連大導演奧利弗史東都非常的認同就是核四廠他是安全的"},{"start":179.961,"end":184.649,"text":"那再來就是實際上他說啦他說柯P有跟他講如果他說柯P說"},{"start":187.748,"end":213.119,"text":"你剛講到日本嘛福島電廠嘛福島電廠的人告訴柯P如果福島的電廠有台灣核四廠的這種設計的話不會發生福島核災啊所以如果你用福島核災來比喻台灣的核四實際上是不是完全可以類比的那為什麼呢我想請教一下主委你知道我們核四廠有一些特殊的設計是福島電廠沒有的你知道嗎"},{"start":217.082,"end":227.475,"text":"有一個深水池啦就是在最高的地方海拔比較高的地方有一個深水池嘛第一個是福島沒有的嘛再來還有一個什麼是福島沒有的你知道嗎"},{"start":234,"end":252.996,"text":"在他的燃料池的上方有三個很大的開口所以不至於會發生氣爆所以我覺得我們身為核能會的主委我們要對我們自己蓋出來的核市場要有信心就是說不見得會發生日本那樣的狀態然後再來就是大家非常擔心核廢料的問題實際上在"},{"start":255.638,"end":284.673,"text":"河市場裡面有一個山凹有一個山凹他可以儲存兩萬桶的核廢料那40年都不必運出所以核廢料問題40年大家也不用擔心因為都是在核市場裡面其實實際上核一核二核三現在也都產生核廢料那他現在放在哪裡就是放在核電廠裡面那根據那個核委會你們核安會你們去看這些核廢料有產生安全的疑慮嗎"},{"start":289.139,"end":309.917,"text":"現在其實在私事儲存那下一個階段要到幹事儲存我現在就問說現階段有沒有問題現階段有沒有安全性的問題有沒有現階段是沒有但是我們還是在是所以謝謝主委你也講了嘛現階段核廢料也沒有安全的問題嘛現在大家是找的是說要把它移到幹事儲存潮嗎"},{"start":310.778,"end":337.262,"text":"甘氏儲存現在和二廠的部分臺電去跟新北市政府到底申請了沒因為新北市政府現在是說核可啦臺電到底去申請了沒甘氏儲存室內的部分室外的部分他其實我剛才有講過就是兩方還有一些司法上的爭議這個隨途保持一個是開始展延一個是完工展延"},{"start":338.032,"end":361.702,"text":"在市內部份去申請嗎?因為市內部份行政院也已經合可了合可了嘛但是他要到明年的114年的7月才會照票對 你要第一個齁 這個要快啦第二 第二齁我們其實不管講什麼失事儲存潮 乾事儲存潮它都是一個暫時性的一個儲放的空間嘛所以這也就是為什麼新北市政府過去非常反對要蓋乾事儲存潮"},{"start":363.283,"end":382.018,"text":"因為他們擔心蓋了乾式儲存槽之後我們的政府就不幫他移出嘛就變成永久的儲存槽所以我現在想要問你啦我們現在要終極解決這個問題那你現在到底我們的終極的儲存槽你到底有沒有計畫因為按照好像之前元能會或是核安會的規劃"},{"start":383.399,"end":400.285,"text":"我們是有一個計劃嘛應該是要在114年要完成處置場的概念設計然後115年要完成候選場址的特殊調查跟評估我先問114年要完成處置場概念設計這個有在進行嗎因為今年已經113年了"},{"start":402.266,"end":430.304,"text":"我跟委員報告這個部分的工作現在其實是經濟部在負責是經濟部那你們有沒有去了解我們就安全的部分其實提供一些準則跟法規給他們參考就了解他們現在進行到什麼階段了第二個階段第二個階段就是在選紙選紙對所以在115年你認為經濟部在115年可以確定我們的永久核廢料儲存廠在哪裡嗎"},{"start":432.299,"end":450.381,"text":"現在方向是什麼大概方向現在是在第二階段的中間大概是在前後還有5年的空間5年可是115年就要完成調查跟評估怎麼會有5年應該是第二個階段應該還有5年第二階段還有5年意思是什麼"},{"start":452.812,"end":473.279,"text":"我這邊列出來的期程也是之前你們提供給我們的報告嗎?是的所以怎麼會有5年?5年的話是120年才會完成長子調查跟評估喔?是,我這個部分我會再給委員資料我相信我的資料是對的啦所以意思是說以你的資料來講的話是120年才會完成選址是不是?現在是112年"},{"start":479.079,"end":498.037,"text":"現在113年所以再5年應該是118年我講的是說115年再加5年所以不是你是說從今年再加5年118年我們核廢料的最終儲存廠會完成選址那現在方向是要在哪裡比如說舉例來講是運到國外還是在地底還是在山洞還是哪裡你們現在方向是哪裡"},{"start":499.439,"end":524.733,"text":"方向這個部分其實是社會有一些的爭議地方有一些的concern不是你要先有方向才有辦法去跟地方溝通嘛你的方向是哪裡嗎剛才我跟委員報告這個部分其實是台電跟經濟部在負責因為一定會徵詢你們嘛因為他選地方他要考慮有沒有安全性問題所以一定會徵詢你們嘛你會給他專業建議嘛那你認為哪裡比較安全"},{"start":529.575,"end":546.093,"text":"看這個地址條件然後這個專汰的地址條件你真的是語言天才真的太厲害了講來講去都是在繞圈圈我覺得這個也謝謝主委你剛剛有說就其實核廢料目前為止都是安全的我想大家也不用過度恐懼"},{"start":547.194,"end":547.234,"text":"好 謝謝葉委員"}]}}}}