{"id":150587,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150587","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fc09d97f3151fdf404b846a9b6a066feef14c05a86b4f80f8ba9b0039caa7a66a1a6418575a0b1b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:11:02 - 10:24:12","影片長度":"00:13:10","會議時間":"2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部、教育部、衛生福利部、內政部警政署就「青少年法治教育與犯罪防制成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於法務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共6案。\n【其中各案如經院會復議，則不予審查、處理】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-10"},"date":"2024-03-28","duration":790,"end_time":"2024-03-28T10:24:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-03-28T10:11:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":706,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時11分）謝謝主席。有請法務部蔡部長，還有總長、刑事警察局局長。"],["主席：有請蔡部長、檢察總長及周局長。"],["蔡部長清祥：早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，上個月的228紀念日，同時也是我們民主進步黨前主席林義雄家宅血案屆滿44週年，這個歷史我就不贅述了，但是監察院在上週四發出新聞稿指出，去年2月21號審議通過林宅血案的結案報告說，警總在這一次有情治系統介入司法偵查、誤導方向、阻撓偵辦，還有操弄媒體、包庇嫌犯、運用黑道等6項重大違失，也提出了5項應該繼續追查的事項，並且糾正了行政院，也函請國安會督導國安局檢討改善。除了這個以外，它也特別提到已經函請法務部研議籌組專案小組，重啟調查林宅血案。從監察院發函到現在也經歷了一個多月了，本席想就教部長或者兩位，對於籌組專案小組的意見怎麼樣，進度到底會如何？我們都清楚，時間真的是非常久遠，也非常的困難，增加了破案的困難度，我看那個現場全部都破壞掉了，但是執政者或者有權機關對這個案子，總是要對社會有一個交代。這是一個歷史的難題，我們都很清楚，但如何給家屬一個公道，甚至於對社會有一定的交代，不曉得部長或者兩位有什麼看法？"],["蔡部長清祥：對於個案，我們還在偵查當中，這個案子在地檢署並沒有完全結束，有任何的資訊或是有線索，他們都還在持續偵查當中，所以案子還是有效地、努力地在查證。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，我可以理解你的立場一定會這樣講，但我的意思是，這個案子經歷過了這麼長的時間，如果政府單位都只是說我們持續在偵辦，偵查當然是不公開，但重點是偵查不公開，我們這是例外規定，是社會重大矚目的案件，這是標準的社會重大矚目幾十年的一個懸案，總是要讓社會有多一點點的資訊也合理，不能只說你們一直持續在偵辦，你覺得呢？"],["蔡部長清祥：委員的建議很好，我們把監察院的報告再詳細研判，如果裡面有我們過去所不知道的，我們就把它再重新瞭解、深入探討，然後想辦法再找出相關證據。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，給社會一點交代，像這種重大案件，社會大眾關心很合理，不然以後政府都說有在辦、有在辦，但不能說，因為偵查不公開，我認為這也不對！","另外，社會上現在矚目的就是敦品中學發生的案件，大家也矚目。所以我是非常感慨啦，矯正學校的教化功能到底要發揮到什麼樣的一個程度。以目前臺灣的情況，四所矯正學校裡面有三所是施行感化教育跟收容較輕犯罪的學校，桃園的敦品、新竹的誠正，還有彰化的勵志中學，另外第四所就是收容比較重刑的，昨天發生事情的是收容比較輕刑的，我就特別有意見，就是最輕本刑在五年以下受裁定三年的感化教育這部分，我相信刑事警察局局長應該很有經驗，對那個很狠的，你們很厲害，對猴囝仔你們就沒辦法了啦，大家都說要把他感化。可是本席一直認為近十年來，不管是從觸法少年或曝險少年的教育程度來看，人數以高中職肄業最多，占五成，國中肄業次之，畢業最少，這個表示什麼呢？在矯正學校裡面都已完成十二年國民教育跟108年的新課綱，這一些學生原來在學校裡面其實都已經受過這些教育了，你不要把這一群人全部都放在那邊，部長，我保證你不會管，矯正署署長也很難管，這叫周幼偉局長去，你們比較好管，但是現行的法令就叫你不能再像以前那個方式了，不可以拿東西丟他又不能打他，還要對他付出愛心，我們以前說的「硬暴」先拿掉，對這麼小的要感化，給他再教育。但是我問的是，你再給他同樣的課程真的有辦法達到矯正教育的效果嗎？這是第一個問題。第二個問題是，近五年來新入校的學生犯罪類別已經從過去的毒品、竊盜轉為詐欺，而且又變為最大宗，假設在這個委員會裡面的我們都不是什麼以前重大犯罪的，都已經轉成詐欺犯了，大家每天在那邊讀書，一定會開始在那邊切磋，到最後就變成詐欺技術精進大會，不要說越關越大尾啦，功夫一定越來越精進，會不會達到矯正的真正效果？署長，問一下，周幼偉一定不好意思說，你教他一些功夫。"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，針對少年矯正學校，我們會強化個別化的處遇，因為每個少年背後的故事都不一樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：太抽象了。"],["周署長輝煌：個別化的處遇包括三所少年矯正學校，它是技術型的高中，剛剛我們部長也有提到，我們會依學生的意願來加強輔導他考證照，還有一些職業訓練，他要就學的話，我們也會跟當地的教育主管機關聯繫，等他出校的時候加強轉型。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，我覺得我不怎麼相信，青少年進到矯正學校以後，有全社會裡面一群最有愛心的人在那裡教這些青少年，我不是否定在矯正學校這個機關裡面這些人的付出，人總是這樣，遇到比較正常的，處遇就會不一樣，那個地方進去以後，你說他不會被標籤化，我也不相信，但怎麼樣去拿捏，我講的是怎麼樣去拿捏可以避免這種狀況。立法院最多罵一罵你們而已，罵你們也不會痛，讓我做部長、署長，我也不知道要怎麼辦。去到那裡，下次如果再發生了，你說會不會再發生？部長，很有可能啊！但如何去想一個辦法，也不要因為他是青少年，所以事事都遷就他，明明，不是體育時間，他就要打籃球，不然就要暴動；過兩天，到了吃飯時間，他如果跟你說，他不出去散步不行，不然就要暴動，要暴動的理由有一大堆，請問有比較好的方法嗎？不是苛責你們啦，而是說總要有一個辦法，因為監獄處遇百百種，你們是專家嘛！但是事情爆發以後，社會矚目，說實在話，社會大眾也未必會譴責你們，暴動的這些人最可惡，什麼還要譴責矯正機關、譴責法務部？我的想法倒不會是如此，但只是說如何去精進，這確實要有一個作法出來，部長的看法如何？"],["蔡部長清祥：因為我們都是讀法律的，教育的問題真的要請專家一起來加入，還有學生的心理，我們的想法跟他們的想法不一樣，要如何來化解他心中對法治的不瞭解，或是對人的怨恨，避免他們用暴動的方式來解決他們的問題，這我們要從心理上來探討、來解決，這是綜合性的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你說他們是學生也不對，他們也不是單純的學生，他們到那個地方受矯正教育，你說他單純，你說要有愛心，把他當成學生來教導、感化，這個我接受，我們都期待他們能夠趕快回歸社會，可是你說只去那邊，學校也不會這樣，國中、高中學生也不會上課上到一半，說不讓我出去就暴動、占據校長室，也不會這樣。"],["蔡部長清祥：因為這些學生都是少年法庭的法官判決交給感化教育，法官可能對這有比較特別的想法，今天廳長也在，可以請教他看看有什麼方法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：再想一下，好不好？三位請回。","今天教育部也有來，請教育部司長，抱歉！我快速問一下，我想請教司長，就是臺北市某公立學校霸凌事件裡面，有一件持續了兩年了，受霸凌者三個人，教育局成立了調查委員會，在該校裡面調查，到最後離譜的結果，你也從媒體上看到了，就是疑似霸凌者竟然被推舉變成一個模範生，以至於校方在調查霸凌事件的時候，是不是會秉公處理，就受到受霸凌者家屬的質疑。透過本案，本席想要請教，現行校園霸凌防治準則規定，主要是因應小組都是校長、副校長擔任召集人，成員是教師代表，沒有明定參與人的人數比例，司長，你覺得這有什麼要改進的地方嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：在過去處理的過程當中比較著重在參與的部分，所以可能也會有老師、家長代表，但是確實過去沒有明定人數，很大的一個問題是，這個準則適用國小、國中、高中到大學，不同教育階段，還有學校規模差異太大，也怕明定之後，將來小型學校在運作上是不是會有困難。這個議題我們有發現了，所以這次在檢討準則修訂的時候，已經有把人員人數明定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：應該補正就要補正。"],["吳司長林輝：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我相信外界要看的就是這個程序到底是不是公平，然後你選的這些人到底有沒有受到信任，這個才是重點。"],["吳司長林輝：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不然社會會譁然啦，怎麼霸凌者最後竟然變成模範生，看起來也好奇怪。"],["吳司長林輝：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：再來就是這些疑慮除了要化解以外，相關調查程序，你說四個月，申復又一個月，申復審議又一個月，一個程序完成至少半年起跳，學生都畢業了，這個也好怪。所以本席認為調查程序公正跟費時的狀況如何改善，整個現行校園霸凌因應小組成員的選定增加學者專家代表或輔導人員的代表，人數的部分應該教育部……"],["吳司長林輝：已經朝明定的方式在處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，應該趕快讓它更完善。調查成員中校內、校外人員要有一定的比例，才可以降低霸凌事件雙方家屬的疑慮，也會減少後續的申復審議，行政成本才可以減少，調查程序也可以順利，這才叫做社會的公道。"],["吳司長林輝：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不完整的地方，儘速把它做一個補正，好不好？"],["吳司長林輝：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝司長，謝謝莊委員。","請羅委員智強質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","柯志恩","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","張雅琳","吳沛憶","鄭天財Sra 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757.115, \"end\": 757.176, \"score\": 0.27}, {\"word\": \"降\", \"start\": 757.176, \"end\": 757.196, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 757.196, \"end\": 757.276, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 757.276, \"end\": 757.316, \"score\": 0.037}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 757.316, \"end\": 757.396, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 757.396, \"end\": 757.416, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 757.416, \"end\": 757.556, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"凌\", \"start\": 757.556, \"end\": 757.576, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 757.576, \"end\": 757.656, \"score\": 0.65}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 757.656, \"end\": 757.676, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"雙\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 757.676, \"end\": 757.816, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 757.816, \"end\": 757.936, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"屬\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 757.936, \"end\": 757.956, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 757.956, \"end\": 758.036, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"疑\", \"start\": 758.036, \"end\": 758.056, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"慮\"}, {\"word\": \"減\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 772.506, \"end\": 772.606, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 772.606, \"end\": 772.706, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 772.706, \"end\": 772.846, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 772.846, \"end\": 772.906, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 772.906, \"end\": 772.926, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"．\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,415 --> 00:00:21,097\n謝謝主席,有請我們法務部蔡部長,還有我們總長,還有我們刑事警察局局長有請蔡部長、檢察總長及周局長\n\n2\n00:00:24,275 --> 00:00:50,396\n部長請教就是上個月這個228紀念日裡面同時也是我們民主進步黨前主席林義雄家宅一個血案借滿的44週年我看這個歷史我就不贅述了但是在監察院在上週四裡面也發出新聞稿來指出說去年的2月21號審議通過的林宅血案的一個結案的一個報告裡面據說\n\n3\n00:00:52,097 --> 00:01:13,839\n警總是這次情緒系統介入司法偵查、誤導方向、阻撓偵辦、操弄媒體、包庇嫌犯、運用黑道等6項重大為師也提出了5項應該繼續追查的事項並糾正行政院也含請國安會督導國安局去檢討改善\n\n4\n00:01:14,842 --> 00:01:43,176\n除了這個以外他也特別去提到所以已經喊請我們法務部研議籌組專案小組來重啟調查林宅的一個血案那從監察院發案到現在也經歷了一個多月本席上就叫部長或者兩位就是說對於籌組專案小組的意見怎麼樣然後這個進度到底會如何我們都清楚時間真的是非常久遠也非常的一個困難增加了破案的一個\n\n5\n00:01:43,676 --> 00:01:43,776\n實施徹底討論。\n\n6\n00:02:09,197 --> 00:02:27,758\n對於這個個案我們還在偵查當中地檢署這個案子並沒有整個完全結束有任何的資訊或是有線索他們都還在持續的在偵查當中所以這個案子還是在有效的在努力的在查證部長可以理解\n\n7\n00:02:29,031 --> 00:02:39,461\n你的立場一定會這樣講但是我的意思就是說這個案子經歷過了這麼長的一個時間如果我們政府單位都只是去講說我們都持續在偵辦的定義\n\n8\n00:02:42,886 --> 00:03:03,215\n偵查當然是不公開但重點是說就像我們偵查不公開的我們例外規定社會重大矚目的一個案件這個就標準的社會重大矚目幾十年的一個懸案總是其實要讓社會多一點點的資訊也合理啦不能說你們一直持續在偵辦你覺得呢\n\n9\n00:03:06,365 --> 00:03:23,006\n委員的建議很好我想我們把這個監察院他的報告再詳細的來研判如果說裡面有我們過去所不知道的我們就把它再重新的來了解來深入的去探討然後想辦法再找出相關的證據出來是\n\n10\n00:03:24,187 --> 00:03:37,880\n那給社會的一點點的一個交代社會大眾關心很合理喔很合理喔像這種重大案件社會關心很合理喔阿不然我要他做政府的大家都說有在辦有在辦你不可以說真的不公開這也不對\n\n11\n00:03:38,915 --> 00:04:00,557\n我認為這也不對那另外就是說社會上現在在矚目的就今天我們看到那個敦平這整個這個在監獄裡面發生的這樣的一個案件大家也矚目了所以我是非常感慨了矯正學校裡面的教化的功能到底要發揮到什麼樣的一個程度那以目前台灣我們是一次總長請回\n\n12\n00:04:01,758 --> 00:04:21,403\n就是說四所矯正學校裡面有三所是施行感化教育跟收容教青犯罪的一個桃園的一個端品中學新竹城鎮還有彰化的一個麗智另外第四所就是說比較重型的那昨天這個是收容比較輕型的嘛這個我就特別來做大意見就是說\n\n13\n00:04:23,503 --> 00:04:34,807\n這個有時候最新本行在5年以下受裁定3年的感化教育這個部分我相信那個邢志勤邢大局局長你這個應該很有經驗對那個很兇的你很厲害啦對這個小孩子你就沒辦法了啦大家都說要\n\n14\n00:04:41,462 --> 00:05:05,745\n要改改化改改化可是呢本席都一直認為說你近10年來不管是觸犯少年或者說曝險少年的教育程度上來看人數高中職異業最多佔5成國中異業次之畢業最少這個表示什麼呢在我們矯正學校裡面都已完成12年國民教育跟108年的新課綱\n\n15\n00:05:07,426 --> 00:05:36,081\n那這一些學生原來在學校裡面其實都已經受過這些教育了你不要把這一群人全部都放在那裏不然我破證你不可以管小政署署長你也很難管啦這差不多叫周偉偉局長你去你就比較好管但是現行的法律你叫你又不可以像以前那樣放下了你又不可以再牽、不可以再講還要對他要付出愛心我們以前說的說這硬爆先拿掉這個對這麼小的要感化\n\n16\n00:05:37,225 --> 00:05:56,606\n來再教育但是我問的是說我們他你再給他同樣的課程你真的有辦法達到他矯正的一個教育的一個效果嗎這第一個問題第二個問題說你說近5年來你說新入校的學生犯罪列別已經從過去毒品啊竊盜啊轉為詐欺又變罪大宗\n\n17\n00:06:01,188 --> 00:06:11,397\n我們這幾個假設我們全部我們在這個委員會裡面的我們都已經不是什麼什麼什麼以前是重大犯罪的都已經轉成這種詐欺犯的我們每天你叫我們在那裡塞車大家一定開始在那裡切磋啊\n\n18\n00:06:15,410 --> 00:06:32,627\n切磋購買,出來後大家都變詐欺技術精進的一個大會。你說不要說越關越大費,功夫越精進,會不會達到他真正假裝的效果?那個那個署長,署長,署長來,看你,問你一下。總會有一定,總會有一定拍攝講的,你給他加一點工夫啦。\n\n19\n00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:56,265\n跟委員報告,針對少年矯正學校我們會強化個別化的處意,因為每個少年他背後的故事都不一樣,個別化的處意。包括說三所少年矯正學校當是技術型的高中,剛剛我們部長也有提到以他的意願來加強他的考證照\n\n20\n00:06:57,205 --> 00:07:06,532\n還有一些職業訓練他要就學的話那我們也會跟當地的教育主管機關等他出校的時候加強轉型\n\n21\n00:07:09,141 --> 00:07:29,868\n部長我覺得這件事不是要相信我們那個地方真的變成去到那裡我們矯正學校我們全部都在社會裡面是一群最有愛心的人在那裡在尷尬這些青少年我不是否定我們在整個矯正學校裡面這個機關裡面這些人的付出啦人總是這樣啦剛才比較正常的你就總是\n\n22\n00:07:33,909 --> 00:07:43,744\n處理會不一樣你總是那個地方進去以後你說他沒有被標籤化我也不相信但怎麼樣去拿捏我講的是怎麼樣去拿捏可以避免像這種狀況\n\n23\n00:07:46,003 --> 00:08:09,005\n這禮拜年喔,六不去,會給你妹妹而已啊。妹妹你若不聽啊,要給我輸定我做,補定我做,我也不知道要怎麼辦。去到那裡,下次如果再發生呢?你說會不會再發生?很有可能啊。補定很有可能啊。但如何去想一個辦法,也不要只因為說他是青少年,所以去每天都住醫,要不然不是體育時間我要打籃球,要不然我要替他暴動。\n\n24\n00:08:11,767 --> 00:08:12,607\n而其中各案如經院會復議．則不\n\n25\n00:08:37,519 --> 00:08:48,997\n這這這這這普通的這個最恐怖的什麼的這個譴責矯正機關、譴責法務部我的想法倒不會是如此但只是說如何去精進這總是要有確實要有一個做法出來喔這普通法律的看法是什麼\n\n26\n00:08:50,782 --> 00:09:17,503\n因為我們都在討論這些教育的問題真的要請教專家一起來加入還有心理核心的心理跟他們的想法不一樣要如何可以來化解心中的那些對法治的不了解或是對人的怨恨要用暴動的方式來解決他的問題這要從心理上面來探討來改觀所以這是綜合性的你說他學生也不對\n\n27\n00:09:18,404 --> 00:09:20,025\n他也不是單純的學生他那個到那個地方喔在那受矯正教育你說他單純你說要把他有愛心把他當成學生來教導感化這個我接受那都期待讓他趕快回歸到這個社會可是你說只有去那裡嘖也不會這樣\n\n28\n00:09:40,185 --> 00:09:42,587\n不讓我出去學校給你暴動佔據校長室也不會這樣\n\n29\n00:09:51,462 --> 00:10:13,847\n因為這些學生都是少年法庭的法官他所判決、教育、這個感化教育的嘛所以他們可能對這個比較特別的想法啦今天有廳長在下不來請教育看看有什麼想法好不好,這個再想一下啦三位請問,我們今天教育部好像也有來嘛教育部我們的師長,師長不好意思,師長起來一下,我要快速\n\n30\n00:10:16,207 --> 00:10:19,328\n三位法務系統請回,部長及局長請回。我想請教司長,台北市某公立學校霸凌事件,持續兩年,受霸凌者三人成立調查委員會,從該小學去調查。\n\n31\n00:10:34,875 --> 00:10:50,653\n道歉離譜的結果我們也從媒體看到了這是疑似霸凌者啊那變成被推舉變成一個模範生那以至於校方在調查霸凌事件的時候是不是會秉公處理啊就變成說遭受霸凌者家屬的一個質疑啦那透過本案啦\n\n32\n00:10:52,115 --> 00:11:07,076\n呃本期想要請教就是說我們現行校園的霸凌的防制準則裡面主要是因應小組都是校長副校長你這招召集人成員是教師代表沒有明定參與人的人數的比例這個師長你有感覺這有什麼要改進的所在嗎\n\n33\n00:11:07,862 --> 00:11:28,428\n先說明因為在過去處理的過程當中比較著重在參與的部分所以可能也會有包括老師、家長代表都會有但是確實過去沒有明定人數那很大一個問題是因為他這個準則要從國小、國中、高中到大學所以那個不同教育階段還有學校規模差一代太大\n\n34\n00:11:29,048 --> 00:11:32,391\n有任何疑惑或懷疑會否影響小型學校運作?\n\n35\n00:11:46,221 --> 00:12:12,518\n有沒有公平：是然後呢你選的這個人到底有沒有受到信任：是這個才是重點：是阿不然你這個社會會發燃阿什麼霸凌者到要你把他創造成模範生這個也看起來也好奇怪：是那再來就是說這些疑慮你除了要去把他化解以外阿你調查程序你說4個月身負1個月阿身負阿審議又一個月一個程序你完成至少然後半年起跳那些學生就被抓起來了\n\n36\n00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:33,993\n這也好怪所以本席認為調查程序公正跟廢死這樣的一個狀況如何去做一個改善那你在整個現前校園霸凌因應小組的一個成員的一個選定上增加學者專家代表或輔導人員的一個代表這個部分那我相信人數的部分應該\n\n37\n00:12:35,074 --> 00:12:38,056\n應該趕快去把它做一個讓它更完善那你讓調查的成員的校內跟校外這兩個有一定的一個比例你才可以降低這個未來的整個霸凌事件雙方家屬這樣的一個疑慮\n\n38\n00:12:52,506 --> 00:12:52,926\n減少後續的身負審議．\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11415\t21097\t謝謝主席,有請我們法務部蔡部長,還有我們總長,還有我們刑事警察局局長有請蔡部長、檢察總長及周局長\n24275\t50396\t部長請教就是上個月這個228紀念日裡面同時也是我們民主進步黨前主席林義雄家宅一個血案借滿的44週年我看這個歷史我就不贅述了但是在監察院在上週四裡面也發出新聞稿來指出說去年的2月21號審議通過的林宅血案的一個結案的一個報告裡面據說\n52097\t73839\t警總是這次情緒系統介入司法偵查、誤導方向、阻撓偵辦、操弄媒體、包庇嫌犯、運用黑道等6項重大為師也提出了5項應該繼續追查的事項並糾正行政院也含請國安會督導國安局去檢討改善\n74842\t103176\t除了這個以外他也特別去提到所以已經喊請我們法務部研議籌組專案小組來重啟調查林宅的一個血案那從監察院發案到現在也經歷了一個多月本席上就叫部長或者兩位就是說對於籌組專案小組的意見怎麼樣然後這個進度到底會如何我們都清楚時間真的是非常久遠也非常的一個困難增加了破案的一個\n103676\t103776\t實施徹底討論。\n129197\t147758\t對於這個個案我們還在偵查當中地檢署這個案子並沒有整個完全結束有任何的資訊或是有線索他們都還在持續的在偵查當中所以這個案子還是在有效的在努力的在查證部長可以理解\n149031\t159461\t你的立場一定會這樣講但是我的意思就是說這個案子經歷過了這麼長的一個時間如果我們政府單位都只是去講說我們都持續在偵辦的定義\n162886\t183215\t偵查當然是不公開但重點是說就像我們偵查不公開的我們例外規定社會重大矚目的一個案件這個就標準的社會重大矚目幾十年的一個懸案總是其實要讓社會多一點點的資訊也合理啦不能說你們一直持續在偵辦你覺得呢\n186365\t203006\t委員的建議很好我想我們把這個監察院他的報告再詳細的來研判如果說裡面有我們過去所不知道的我們就把它再重新的來了解來深入的去探討然後想辦法再找出相關的證據出來是\n204187\t217880\t那給社會的一點點的一個交代社會大眾關心很合理喔很合理喔像這種重大案件社會關心很合理喔阿不然我要他做政府的大家都說有在辦有在辦你不可以說真的不公開這也不對\n218915\t240557\t我認為這也不對那另外就是說社會上現在在矚目的就今天我們看到那個敦平這整個這個在監獄裡面發生的這樣的一個案件大家也矚目了所以我是非常感慨了矯正學校裡面的教化的功能到底要發揮到什麼樣的一個程度那以目前台灣我們是一次總長請回\n241758\t261403\t就是說四所矯正學校裡面有三所是施行感化教育跟收容教青犯罪的一個桃園的一個端品中學新竹城鎮還有彰化的一個麗智另外第四所就是說比較重型的那昨天這個是收容比較輕型的嘛這個我就特別來做大意見就是說\n263503\t274807\t這個有時候最新本行在5年以下受裁定3年的感化教育這個部分我相信那個邢志勤邢大局局長你這個應該很有經驗對那個很兇的你很厲害啦對這個小孩子你就沒辦法了啦大家都說要\n281462\t305745\t要改改化改改化可是呢本席都一直認為說你近10年來不管是觸犯少年或者說曝險少年的教育程度上來看人數高中職異業最多佔5成國中異業次之畢業最少這個表示什麼呢在我們矯正學校裡面都已完成12年國民教育跟108年的新課綱\n307426\t336081\t那這一些學生原來在學校裡面其實都已經受過這些教育了你不要把這一群人全部都放在那裏不然我破證你不可以管小政署署長你也很難管啦這差不多叫周偉偉局長你去你就比較好管但是現行的法律你叫你又不可以像以前那樣放下了你又不可以再牽、不可以再講還要對他要付出愛心我們以前說的說這硬爆先拿掉這個對這麼小的要感化\n337225\t356606\t來再教育但是我問的是說我們他你再給他同樣的課程你真的有辦法達到他矯正的一個教育的一個效果嗎這第一個問題第二個問題說你說近5年來你說新入校的學生犯罪列別已經從過去毒品啊竊盜啊轉為詐欺又變罪大宗\n361188\t371397\t我們這幾個假設我們全部我們在這個委員會裡面的我們都已經不是什麼什麼什麼以前是重大犯罪的都已經轉成這種詐欺犯的我們每天你叫我們在那裡塞車大家一定開始在那裡切磋啊\n375410\t392627\t切磋購買,出來後大家都變詐欺技術精進的一個大會。你說不要說越關越大費,功夫越精進,會不會達到他真正假裝的效果?那個那個署長,署長,署長來,看你,問你一下。總會有一定,總會有一定拍攝講的,你給他加一點工夫啦。\n394760\t416265\t跟委員報告,針對少年矯正學校我們會強化個別化的處意,因為每個少年他背後的故事都不一樣,個別化的處意。包括說三所少年矯正學校當是技術型的高中,剛剛我們部長也有提到以他的意願來加強他的考證照\n417205\t426532\t還有一些職業訓練他要就學的話那我們也會跟當地的教育主管機關等他出校的時候加強轉型\n429141\t449868\t部長 我覺得這件事不是要相信我們那個地方真的變成去到那裡我們矯正學校我們全部都在社會裡面是一群最有愛心的人在那裡在尷尬這些青少年我不是否定我們在整個矯正學校裡面這個機關裡面這些人的付出啦人總是這樣啦剛才比較正常的你就總是\n453909\t463744\t處理會不一樣你總是那個地方進去以後你說他沒有被標籤化我也不相信但怎麼樣去拿捏我講的是怎麼樣去拿捏可以避免像這種狀況\n466003\t489005\t這禮拜年喔,六不去,會給你妹妹而已啊。妹妹你若不聽啊,要給我輸定我做,補定我做,我也不知道要怎麼辦。去到那裡,下次如果再發生呢?你說會不會再發生?很有可能啊。補定很有可能啊。但如何去想一個辦法,也不要只因為說他是青少年,所以去每天都住醫,要不然不是體育時間我要打籃球,要不然我要替他暴動。\n491767\t492607\t而其中各案如經院會復議．則不\n517519\t528997\t這這這這這普通的這個最恐怖的什麼的這個譴責矯正機關、譴責法務部我的想法倒不會是如此但只是說如何去精進這總是要有確實要有一個做法出來喔這普通法律的看法是什麼\n530782\t557503\t因為我們都在討論這些教育的問題真的要請教專家一起來加入還有心理核心的心理跟他們的想法不一樣要如何可以來化解心中的那些對法治的不了解或是對人的怨恨要用暴動的方式來解決他的問題這要從心理上面來探討來改觀所以這是綜合性的你說他學生也不對\n558404\t560025\t他也不是單純的學生他那個到那個地方喔在那受矯正教育你說他單純你說要把他有愛心把他當成學生來教導感化這個我接受那都期待讓他趕快回歸到這個社會可是你說只有去那裡嘖也不會這樣\n580185\t582587\t不讓我出去學校給你暴動 佔據校長室 也不會這樣\n591462\t613847\t因為這些學生都是少年法庭的法官他所判決、教育、這個感化教育的嘛所以他們可能對這個比較特別的想法啦今天有廳長在下不來請教育看看有什麼想法好不好,這個再想一下啦三位請問,我們今天教育部好像也有來嘛教育部我們的師長,師長不好意思,師長起來一下,我要快速\n616207\t619328\t三位法務系統請回,部長及局長請回。我想請教司長,台北市某公立學校霸凌事件,持續兩年,受霸凌者三人成立調查委員會,從該小學去調查。\n634875\t650653\t道歉離譜的結果我們也從媒體看到了這是疑似霸凌者啊那變成被推舉變成一個模範生那以至於校方在調查霸凌事件的時候是不是會秉公處理啊就變成說遭受霸凌者家屬的一個質疑啦那透過本案啦\n652115\t667076\t呃本期想要請教就是說我們現行校園的霸凌的防制準則裡面主要是因應小組都是校長副校長你這招召集人成員是教師代表沒有明定參與人的人數的比例這個師長你有感覺這有什麼要改進的所在嗎\n667862\t688428\t先說明因為在過去處理的過程當中比較著重在參與的部分所以可能也會有包括老師、家長代表都會有但是確實過去沒有明定人數那很大一個問題是因為他這個準則要從國小、國中、高中到大學所以那個不同教育階段還有學校規模差一代太大\n689048\t692391\t有任何疑惑或懷疑會否影響小型學校運作?\n706221\t732518\t有沒有公平：是然後呢你選的這個人到底有沒有受到信任：是這個才是重點：是阿不然你這個社會會發燃阿什麼霸凌者到要你把他創造成模範生這個也看起來也好奇怪：是那再來就是說這些疑慮你除了要去把他化解以外阿你調查程序你說4個月身負1個月阿身負阿審議又一個月一個程序你完成至少然後半年起跳那些學生就被抓起來了\n735480\t753993\t這也好怪所以本席認為調查程序公正跟廢死這樣的一個狀況如何去做一個改善那你在整個現前校園霸凌因應小組的一個成員的一個選定上增加學者專家代表或輔導人員的一個代表這個部分那我相信人數的部分應該\n755074\t758056\t應該趕快去把它做一個讓它更完善那你讓調查的成員的校內跟校外這兩個有一定的一個比例你才可以降低這個未來的整個霸凌事件雙方家屬這樣的一個疑慮\n772506\t772926\t減少後續的身負審議．\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請我們法務部蔡部長,還有我們總長,還有我們刑事警察局局長有請蔡部長、檢察總長及周局長\n部長請教就是上個月這個228紀念日裡面同時也是我們民主進步黨前主席林義雄家宅一個血案借滿的44週年我看這個歷史我就不贅述了但是在監察院在上週四裡面也發出新聞稿來指出說去年的2月21號審議通過的林宅血案的一個結案的一個報告裡面據說\n警總是這次情緒系統介入司法偵查、誤導方向、阻撓偵辦、操弄媒體、包庇嫌犯、運用黑道等6項重大為師也提出了5項應該繼續追查的事項並糾正行政院也含請國安會督導國安局去檢討改善\n除了這個以外他也特別去提到所以已經喊請我們法務部研議籌組專案小組來重啟調查林宅的一個血案那從監察院發案到現在也經歷了一個多月本席上就叫部長或者兩位就是說對於籌組專案小組的意見怎麼樣然後這個進度到底會如何我們都清楚時間真的是非常久遠也非常的一個困難增加了破案的一個\n實施徹底討論。\n對於這個個案我們還在偵查當中地檢署這個案子並沒有整個完全結束有任何的資訊或是有線索他們都還在持續的在偵查當中所以這個案子還是在有效的在努力的在查證部長可以理解\n你的立場一定會這樣講但是我的意思就是說這個案子經歷過了這麼長的一個時間如果我們政府單位都只是去講說我們都持續在偵辦的定義\n偵查當然是不公開但重點是說就像我們偵查不公開的我們例外規定社會重大矚目的一個案件這個就標準的社會重大矚目幾十年的一個懸案總是其實要讓社會多一點點的資訊也合理啦不能說你們一直持續在偵辦你覺得呢\n委員的建議很好我想我們把這個監察院他的報告再詳細的來研判如果說裡面有我們過去所不知道的我們就把它再重新的來了解來深入的去探討然後想辦法再找出相關的證據出來是\n那給社會的一點點的一個交代社會大眾關心很合理喔很合理喔像這種重大案件社會關心很合理喔阿不然我要他做政府的大家都說有在辦有在辦你不可以說真的不公開這也不對\n我認為這也不對那另外就是說社會上現在在矚目的就今天我們看到那個敦平這整個這個在監獄裡面發生的這樣的一個案件大家也矚目了所以我是非常感慨了矯正學校裡面的教化的功能到底要發揮到什麼樣的一個程度那以目前台灣我們是一次總長請回\n就是說四所矯正學校裡面有三所是施行感化教育跟收容教青犯罪的一個桃園的一個端品中學新竹城鎮還有彰化的一個麗智另外第四所就是說比較重型的那昨天這個是收容比較輕型的嘛這個我就特別來做大意見就是說\n這個有時候最新本行在5年以下受裁定3年的感化教育這個部分我相信那個邢志勤邢大局局長你這個應該很有經驗對那個很兇的你很厲害啦對這個小孩子你就沒辦法了啦大家都說要\n要改改化改改化可是呢本席都一直認為說你近10年來不管是觸犯少年或者說曝險少年的教育程度上來看人數高中職異業最多佔5成國中異業次之畢業最少這個表示什麼呢在我們矯正學校裡面都已完成12年國民教育跟108年的新課綱\n那這一些學生原來在學校裡面其實都已經受過這些教育了你不要把這一群人全部都放在那裏不然我破證你不可以管小政署署長你也很難管啦這差不多叫周偉偉局長你去你就比較好管但是現行的法律你叫你又不可以像以前那樣放下了你又不可以再牽、不可以再講還要對他要付出愛心我們以前說的說這硬爆先拿掉這個對這麼小的要感化\n來再教育但是我問的是說我們他你再給他同樣的課程你真的有辦法達到他矯正的一個教育的一個效果嗎這第一個問題第二個問題說你說近5年來你說新入校的學生犯罪列別已經從過去毒品啊竊盜啊轉為詐欺又變罪大宗\n我們這幾個假設我們全部我們在這個委員會裡面的我們都已經不是什麼什麼什麼以前是重大犯罪的都已經轉成這種詐欺犯的我們每天你叫我們在那裡塞車大家一定開始在那裡切磋啊\n切磋購買,出來後大家都變詐欺技術精進的一個大會。你說不要說越關越大費,功夫越精進,會不會達到他真正假裝的效果?那個那個署長,署長,署長來,看你,問你一下。總會有一定,總會有一定拍攝講的,你給他加一點工夫啦。\n跟委員報告,針對少年矯正學校我們會強化個別化的處意,因為每個少年他背後的故事都不一樣,個別化的處意。包括說三所少年矯正學校當是技術型的高中,剛剛我們部長也有提到以他的意願來加強他的考證照\n還有一些職業訓練他要就學的話那我們也會跟當地的教育主管機關等他出校的時候加強轉型\n部長 我覺得這件事不是要相信我們那個地方真的變成去到那裡我們矯正學校我們全部都在社會裡面是一群最有愛心的人在那裡在尷尬這些青少年我不是否定我們在整個矯正學校裡面這個機關裡面這些人的付出啦人總是這樣啦剛才比較正常的你就總是\n處理會不一樣你總是那個地方進去以後你說他沒有被標籤化我也不相信但怎麼樣去拿捏我講的是怎麼樣去拿捏可以避免像這種狀況\n這禮拜年喔,六不去,會給你妹妹而已啊。妹妹你若不聽啊,要給我輸定我做,補定我做,我也不知道要怎麼辦。去到那裡,下次如果再發生呢?你說會不會再發生?很有可能啊。補定很有可能啊。但如何去想一個辦法,也不要只因為說他是青少年,所以去每天都住醫,要不然不是體育時間我要打籃球,要不然我要替他暴動。\n而其中各案如經院會復議．則不\n這這這這這普通的這個最恐怖的什麼的這個譴責矯正機關、譴責法務部我的想法倒不會是如此但只是說如何去精進這總是要有確實要有一個做法出來喔這普通法律的看法是什麼\n因為我們都在討論這些教育的問題真的要請教專家一起來加入還有心理核心的心理跟他們的想法不一樣要如何可以來化解心中的那些對法治的不了解或是對人的怨恨要用暴動的方式來解決他的問題這要從心理上面來探討來改觀所以這是綜合性的你說他學生也不對\n他也不是單純的學生他那個到那個地方喔在那受矯正教育你說他單純你說要把他有愛心把他當成學生來教導感化這個我接受那都期待讓他趕快回歸到這個社會可是你說只有去那裡嘖也不會這樣\n不讓我出去學校給你暴動 佔據校長室 也不會這樣\n因為這些學生都是少年法庭的法官他所判決、教育、這個感化教育的嘛所以他們可能對這個比較特別的想法啦今天有廳長在下不來請教育看看有什麼想法好不好,這個再想一下啦三位請問,我們今天教育部好像也有來嘛教育部我們的師長,師長不好意思,師長起來一下,我要快速\n三位法務系統請回,部長及局長請回。我想請教司長,台北市某公立學校霸凌事件,持續兩年,受霸凌者三人成立調查委員會,從該小學去調查。\n道歉離譜的結果我們也從媒體看到了這是疑似霸凌者啊那變成被推舉變成一個模範生那以至於校方在調查霸凌事件的時候是不是會秉公處理啊就變成說遭受霸凌者家屬的一個質疑啦那透過本案啦\n呃本期想要請教就是說我們現行校園的霸凌的防制準則裡面主要是因應小組都是校長副校長你這招召集人成員是教師代表沒有明定參與人的人數的比例這個師長你有感覺這有什麼要改進的所在嗎\n先說明因為在過去處理的過程當中比較著重在參與的部分所以可能也會有包括老師、家長代表都會有但是確實過去沒有明定人數那很大一個問題是因為他這個準則要從國小、國中、高中到大學所以那個不同教育階段還有學校規模差一代太大\n有任何疑惑或懷疑會否影響小型學校運作?\n有沒有公平：是然後呢你選的這個人到底有沒有受到信任：是這個才是重點：是阿不然你這個社會會發燃阿什麼霸凌者到要你把他創造成模範生這個也看起來也好奇怪：是那再來就是說這些疑慮你除了要去把他化解以外阿你調查程序你說4個月身負1個月阿身負阿審議又一個月一個程序你完成至少然後半年起跳那些學生就被抓起來了\n這也好怪所以本席認為調查程序公正跟廢死這樣的一個狀況如何去做一個改善那你在整個現前校園霸凌因應小組的一個成員的一個選定上增加學者專家代表或輔導人員的一個代表這個部分那我相信人數的部分應該\n應該趕快去把它做一個讓它更完善那你讓調查的成員的校內跟校外這兩個有一定的一個比例你才可以降低這個未來的整個霸凌事件雙方家屬這樣的一個疑慮\n減少後續的身負審議．\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.415 --> 00:21.097\n謝謝主席,有請我們法務部蔡部長,還有我們總長,還有我們刑事警察局局長有請蔡部長、檢察總長及周局長\n\n00:24.275 --> 00:50.396\n部長請教就是上個月這個228紀念日裡面同時也是我們民主進步黨前主席林義雄家宅一個血案借滿的44週年我看這個歷史我就不贅述了但是在監察院在上週四裡面也發出新聞稿來指出說去年的2月21號審議通過的林宅血案的一個結案的一個報告裡面據說\n\n00:52.097 --> 01:13.839\n警總是這次情緒系統介入司法偵查、誤導方向、阻撓偵辦、操弄媒體、包庇嫌犯、運用黑道等6項重大為師也提出了5項應該繼續追查的事項並糾正行政院也含請國安會督導國安局去檢討改善\n\n01:14.842 --> 01:43.176\n除了這個以外他也特別去提到所以已經喊請我們法務部研議籌組專案小組來重啟調查林宅的一個血案那從監察院發案到現在也經歷了一個多月本席上就叫部長或者兩位就是說對於籌組專案小組的意見怎麼樣然後這個進度到底會如何我們都清楚時間真的是非常久遠也非常的一個困難增加了破案的一個\n\n01:43.676 --> 01:43.776\n實施徹底討論。\n\n02:09.197 --> 02:27.758\n對於這個個案我們還在偵查當中地檢署這個案子並沒有整個完全結束有任何的資訊或是有線索他們都還在持續的在偵查當中所以這個案子還是在有效的在努力的在查證部長可以理解\n\n02:29.031 --> 02:39.461\n你的立場一定會這樣講但是我的意思就是說這個案子經歷過了這麼長的一個時間如果我們政府單位都只是去講說我們都持續在偵辦的定義\n\n02:42.886 --> 03:03.215\n偵查當然是不公開但重點是說就像我們偵查不公開的我們例外規定社會重大矚目的一個案件這個就標準的社會重大矚目幾十年的一個懸案總是其實要讓社會多一點點的資訊也合理啦不能說你們一直持續在偵辦你覺得呢\n\n03:06.365 --> 03:23.006\n委員的建議很好我想我們把這個監察院他的報告再詳細的來研判如果說裡面有我們過去所不知道的我們就把它再重新的來了解來深入的去探討然後想辦法再找出相關的證據出來是\n\n03:24.187 --> 03:37.880\n那給社會的一點點的一個交代社會大眾關心很合理喔很合理喔像這種重大案件社會關心很合理喔阿不然我要他做政府的大家都說有在辦有在辦你不可以說真的不公開這也不對\n\n03:38.915 --> 04:00.557\n我認為這也不對那另外就是說社會上現在在矚目的就今天我們看到那個敦平這整個這個在監獄裡面發生的這樣的一個案件大家也矚目了所以我是非常感慨了矯正學校裡面的教化的功能到底要發揮到什麼樣的一個程度那以目前台灣我們是一次總長請回\n\n04:01.758 --> 04:21.403\n就是說四所矯正學校裡面有三所是施行感化教育跟收容教青犯罪的一個桃園的一個端品中學新竹城鎮還有彰化的一個麗智另外第四所就是說比較重型的那昨天這個是收容比較輕型的嘛這個我就特別來做大意見就是說\n\n04:23.503 --> 04:34.807\n這個有時候最新本行在5年以下受裁定3年的感化教育這個部分我相信那個邢志勤邢大局局長你這個應該很有經驗對那個很兇的你很厲害啦對這個小孩子你就沒辦法了啦大家都說要\n\n04:41.462 --> 05:05.745\n要改改化改改化可是呢本席都一直認為說你近10年來不管是觸犯少年或者說曝險少年的教育程度上來看人數高中職異業最多佔5成國中異業次之畢業最少這個表示什麼呢在我們矯正學校裡面都已完成12年國民教育跟108年的新課綱\n\n05:07.426 --> 05:36.081\n那這一些學生原來在學校裡面其實都已經受過這些教育了你不要把這一群人全部都放在那裏不然我破證你不可以管小政署署長你也很難管啦這差不多叫周偉偉局長你去你就比較好管但是現行的法律你叫你又不可以像以前那樣放下了你又不可以再牽、不可以再講還要對他要付出愛心我們以前說的說這硬爆先拿掉這個對這麼小的要感化\n\n05:37.225 --> 05:56.606\n來再教育但是我問的是說我們他你再給他同樣的課程你真的有辦法達到他矯正的一個教育的一個效果嗎這第一個問題第二個問題說你說近5年來你說新入校的學生犯罪列別已經從過去毒品啊竊盜啊轉為詐欺又變罪大宗\n\n06:01.188 --> 06:11.397\n我們這幾個假設我們全部我們在這個委員會裡面的我們都已經不是什麼什麼什麼以前是重大犯罪的都已經轉成這種詐欺犯的我們每天你叫我們在那裡塞車大家一定開始在那裡切磋啊\n\n06:15.410 --> 06:32.627\n切磋購買,出來後大家都變詐欺技術精進的一個大會。你說不要說越關越大費,功夫越精進,會不會達到他真正假裝的效果?那個那個署長,署長,署長來,看你,問你一下。總會有一定,總會有一定拍攝講的,你給他加一點工夫啦。\n\n06:34.760 --> 06:56.265\n跟委員報告,針對少年矯正學校我們會強化個別化的處意,因為每個少年他背後的故事都不一樣,個別化的處意。包括說三所少年矯正學校當是技術型的高中,剛剛我們部長也有提到以他的意願來加強他的考證照\n\n06:57.205 --> 07:06.532\n還有一些職業訓練他要就學的話那我們也會跟當地的教育主管機關等他出校的時候加強轉型\n\n07:09.141 --> 07:29.868\n部長我覺得這件事不是要相信我們那個地方真的變成去到那裡我們矯正學校我們全部都在社會裡面是一群最有愛心的人在那裡在尷尬這些青少年我不是否定我們在整個矯正學校裡面這個機關裡面這些人的付出啦人總是這樣啦剛才比較正常的你就總是\n\n07:33.909 --> 07:43.744\n處理會不一樣你總是那個地方進去以後你說他沒有被標籤化我也不相信但怎麼樣去拿捏我講的是怎麼樣去拿捏可以避免像這種狀況\n\n07:46.003 --> 08:09.005\n這禮拜年喔,六不去,會給你妹妹而已啊。妹妹你若不聽啊,要給我輸定我做,補定我做,我也不知道要怎麼辦。去到那裡,下次如果再發生呢?你說會不會再發生?很有可能啊。補定很有可能啊。但如何去想一個辦法,也不要只因為說他是青少年,所以去每天都住醫,要不然不是體育時間我要打籃球,要不然我要替他暴動。\n\n08:11.767 --> 08:12.607\n而其中各案如經院會復議．則不\n\n08:37.519 --> 08:48.997\n這這這這這普通的這個最恐怖的什麼的這個譴責矯正機關、譴責法務部我的想法倒不會是如此但只是說如何去精進這總是要有確實要有一個做法出來喔這普通法律的看法是什麼\n\n08:50.782 --> 09:17.503\n因為我們都在討論這些教育的問題真的要請教專家一起來加入還有心理核心的心理跟他們的想法不一樣要如何可以來化解心中的那些對法治的不了解或是對人的怨恨要用暴動的方式來解決他的問題這要從心理上面來探討來改觀所以這是綜合性的你說他學生也不對\n\n09:18.404 --> 09:20.025\n他也不是單純的學生他那個到那個地方喔在那受矯正教育你說他單純你說要把他有愛心把他當成學生來教導感化這個我接受那都期待讓他趕快回歸到這個社會可是你說只有去那裡嘖也不會這樣\n\n09:40.185 --> 09:42.587\n不讓我出去學校給你暴動佔據校長室也不會這樣\n\n09:51.462 --> 10:13.847\n因為這些學生都是少年法庭的法官他所判決、教育、這個感化教育的嘛所以他們可能對這個比較特別的想法啦今天有廳長在下不來請教育看看有什麼想法好不好,這個再想一下啦三位請問,我們今天教育部好像也有來嘛教育部我們的師長,師長不好意思,師長起來一下,我要快速\n\n10:16.207 --> 10:19.328\n三位法務系統請回,部長及局長請回。我想請教司長,台北市某公立學校霸凌事件,持續兩年,受霸凌者三人成立調查委員會,從該小學去調查。\n\n10:34.875 --> 10:50.653\n道歉離譜的結果我們也從媒體看到了這是疑似霸凌者啊那變成被推舉變成一個模範生那以至於校方在調查霸凌事件的時候是不是會秉公處理啊就變成說遭受霸凌者家屬的一個質疑啦那透過本案啦\n\n10:52.115 --> 11:07.076\n呃本期想要請教就是說我們現行校園的霸凌的防制準則裡面主要是因應小組都是校長副校長你這招召集人成員是教師代表沒有明定參與人的人數的比例這個師長你有感覺這有什麼要改進的所在嗎\n\n11:07.862 --> 11:28.428\n先說明因為在過去處理的過程當中比較著重在參與的部分所以可能也會有包括老師、家長代表都會有但是確實過去沒有明定人數那很大一個問題是因為他這個準則要從國小、國中、高中到大學所以那個不同教育階段還有學校規模差一代太大\n\n11:29.048 --> 11:32.391\n有任何疑惑或懷疑會否影響小型學校運作?\n\n11:46.221 --> 12:12.518\n有沒有公平：是然後呢你選的這個人到底有沒有受到信任：是這個才是重點：是阿不然你這個社會會發燃阿什麼霸凌者到要你把他創造成模範生這個也看起來也好奇怪：是那再來就是說這些疑慮你除了要去把他化解以外阿你調查程序你說4個月身負1個月阿身負阿審議又一個月一個程序你完成至少然後半年起跳那些學生就被抓起來了\n\n12:15.480 --> 12:33.993\n這也好怪所以本席認為調查程序公正跟廢死這樣的一個狀況如何去做一個改善那你在整個現前校園霸凌因應小組的一個成員的一個選定上增加學者專家代表或輔導人員的一個代表這個部分那我相信人數的部分應該\n\n12:35.074 --> 12:38.056\n應該趕快去把它做一個讓它更完善那你讓調查的成員的校內跟校外這兩個有一定的一個比例你才可以降低這個未來的整個霸凌事件雙方家屬這樣的一個疑慮\n\n12:52.506 --> 12:52.926\n減少後續的身負審議．\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.415,"end":21.097,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們法務部蔡部長,還有我們總長,還有我們刑事警察局局長有請蔡部長、檢察總長及周局長"},{"start":24.275,"end":50.396,"text":"部長請教就是上個月這個228紀念日裡面同時也是我們民主進步黨前主席林義雄家宅一個血案借滿的44週年我看這個歷史我就不贅述了但是在監察院在上週四裡面也發出新聞稿來指出說去年的2月21號審議通過的林宅血案的一個結案的一個報告裡面據說"},{"start":52.097,"end":73.839,"text":"警總是這次情緒系統介入司法偵查、誤導方向、阻撓偵辦、操弄媒體、包庇嫌犯、運用黑道等6項重大為師也提出了5項應該繼續追查的事項並糾正行政院也含請國安會督導國安局去檢討改善"},{"start":74.842,"end":103.176,"text":"除了這個以外他也特別去提到所以已經喊請我們法務部研議籌組專案小組來重啟調查林宅的一個血案那從監察院發案到現在也經歷了一個多月本席上就叫部長或者兩位就是說對於籌組專案小組的意見怎麼樣然後這個進度到底會如何我們都清楚時間真的是非常久遠也非常的一個困難增加了破案的一個"},{"start":103.676,"end":103.776,"text":"實施徹底討論。"},{"start":129.197,"end":147.758,"text":"對於這個個案我們還在偵查當中地檢署這個案子並沒有整個完全結束有任何的資訊或是有線索他們都還在持續的在偵查當中所以這個案子還是在有效的在努力的在查證部長可以理解"},{"start":149.031,"end":159.461,"text":"你的立場一定會這樣講但是我的意思就是說這個案子經歷過了這麼長的一個時間如果我們政府單位都只是去講說我們都持續在偵辦的定義"},{"start":162.886,"end":183.215,"text":"偵查當然是不公開但重點是說就像我們偵查不公開的我們例外規定社會重大矚目的一個案件這個就標準的社會重大矚目幾十年的一個懸案總是其實要讓社會多一點點的資訊也合理啦不能說你們一直持續在偵辦你覺得呢"},{"start":186.365,"end":203.006,"text":"委員的建議很好我想我們把這個監察院他的報告再詳細的來研判如果說裡面有我們過去所不知道的我們就把它再重新的來了解來深入的去探討然後想辦法再找出相關的證據出來是"},{"start":204.187,"end":217.88,"text":"那給社會的一點點的一個交代社會大眾關心很合理喔很合理喔像這種重大案件社會關心很合理喔阿不然我要他做政府的大家都說有在辦有在辦你不可以說真的不公開這也不對"},{"start":218.915,"end":240.557,"text":"我認為這也不對那另外就是說社會上現在在矚目的就今天我們看到那個敦平這整個這個在監獄裡面發生的這樣的一個案件大家也矚目了所以我是非常感慨了矯正學校裡面的教化的功能到底要發揮到什麼樣的一個程度那以目前台灣我們是一次總長請回"},{"start":241.758,"end":261.403,"text":"就是說四所矯正學校裡面有三所是施行感化教育跟收容教青犯罪的一個桃園的一個端品中學新竹城鎮還有彰化的一個麗智另外第四所就是說比較重型的那昨天這個是收容比較輕型的嘛這個我就特別來做大意見就是說"},{"start":263.503,"end":274.807,"text":"這個有時候最新本行在5年以下受裁定3年的感化教育這個部分我相信那個邢志勤邢大局局長你這個應該很有經驗對那個很兇的你很厲害啦對這個小孩子你就沒辦法了啦大家都說要"},{"start":281.462,"end":305.745,"text":"要改改化改改化可是呢本席都一直認為說你近10年來不管是觸犯少年或者說曝險少年的教育程度上來看人數高中職異業最多佔5成國中異業次之畢業最少這個表示什麼呢在我們矯正學校裡面都已完成12年國民教育跟108年的新課綱"},{"start":307.426,"end":336.081,"text":"那這一些學生原來在學校裡面其實都已經受過這些教育了你不要把這一群人全部都放在那裏不然我破證你不可以管小政署署長你也很難管啦這差不多叫周偉偉局長你去你就比較好管但是現行的法律你叫你又不可以像以前那樣放下了你又不可以再牽、不可以再講還要對他要付出愛心我們以前說的說這硬爆先拿掉這個對這麼小的要感化"},{"start":337.225,"end":356.606,"text":"來再教育但是我問的是說我們他你再給他同樣的課程你真的有辦法達到他矯正的一個教育的一個效果嗎這第一個問題第二個問題說你說近5年來你說新入校的學生犯罪列別已經從過去毒品啊竊盜啊轉為詐欺又變罪大宗"},{"start":361.188,"end":371.397,"text":"我們這幾個假設我們全部我們在這個委員會裡面的我們都已經不是什麼什麼什麼以前是重大犯罪的都已經轉成這種詐欺犯的我們每天你叫我們在那裡塞車大家一定開始在那裡切磋啊"},{"start":375.41,"end":392.627,"text":"切磋購買,出來後大家都變詐欺技術精進的一個大會。你說不要說越關越大費,功夫越精進,會不會達到他真正假裝的效果?那個那個署長,署長,署長來,看你,問你一下。總會有一定,總會有一定拍攝講的,你給他加一點工夫啦。"},{"start":394.76,"end":416.265,"text":"跟委員報告,針對少年矯正學校我們會強化個別化的處意,因為每個少年他背後的故事都不一樣,個別化的處意。包括說三所少年矯正學校當是技術型的高中,剛剛我們部長也有提到以他的意願來加強他的考證照"},{"start":417.205,"end":426.532,"text":"還有一些職業訓練他要就學的話那我們也會跟當地的教育主管機關等他出校的時候加強轉型"},{"start":429.141,"end":449.868,"text":"部長 我覺得這件事不是要相信我們那個地方真的變成去到那裡我們矯正學校我們全部都在社會裡面是一群最有愛心的人在那裡在尷尬這些青少年我不是否定我們在整個矯正學校裡面這個機關裡面這些人的付出啦人總是這樣啦剛才比較正常的你就總是"},{"start":453.909,"end":463.744,"text":"處理會不一樣你總是那個地方進去以後你說他沒有被標籤化我也不相信但怎麼樣去拿捏我講的是怎麼樣去拿捏可以避免像這種狀況"},{"start":466.003,"end":489.005,"text":"這禮拜年喔,六不去,會給你妹妹而已啊。妹妹你若不聽啊,要給我輸定我做,補定我做,我也不知道要怎麼辦。去到那裡,下次如果再發生呢?你說會不會再發生?很有可能啊。補定很有可能啊。但如何去想一個辦法,也不要只因為說他是青少年,所以去每天都住醫,要不然不是體育時間我要打籃球,要不然我要替他暴動。"},{"start":491.767,"end":492.607,"text":"而其中各案如經院會復議．則不"},{"start":517.519,"end":528.997,"text":"這這這這這普通的這個最恐怖的什麼的這個譴責矯正機關、譴責法務部我的想法倒不會是如此但只是說如何去精進這總是要有確實要有一個做法出來喔這普通法律的看法是什麼"},{"start":530.782,"end":557.503,"text":"因為我們都在討論這些教育的問題真的要請教專家一起來加入還有心理核心的心理跟他們的想法不一樣要如何可以來化解心中的那些對法治的不了解或是對人的怨恨要用暴動的方式來解決他的問題這要從心理上面來探討來改觀所以這是綜合性的你說他學生也不對"},{"start":558.404,"end":560.025,"text":"他也不是單純的學生他那個到那個地方喔在那受矯正教育你說他單純你說要把他有愛心把他當成學生來教導感化這個我接受那都期待讓他趕快回歸到這個社會可是你說只有去那裡嘖也不會這樣"},{"start":580.185,"end":582.587,"text":"不讓我出去學校給你暴動 佔據校長室 也不會這樣"},{"start":591.462,"end":613.847,"text":"因為這些學生都是少年法庭的法官他所判決、教育、這個感化教育的嘛所以他們可能對這個比較特別的想法啦今天有廳長在下不來請教育看看有什麼想法好不好,這個再想一下啦三位請問,我們今天教育部好像也有來嘛教育部我們的師長,師長不好意思,師長起來一下,我要快速"},{"start":616.207,"end":619.328,"text":"三位法務系統請回,部長及局長請回。我想請教司長,台北市某公立學校霸凌事件,持續兩年,受霸凌者三人成立調查委員會,從該小學去調查。"},{"start":634.875,"end":650.653,"text":"道歉離譜的結果我們也從媒體看到了這是疑似霸凌者啊那變成被推舉變成一個模範生那以至於校方在調查霸凌事件的時候是不是會秉公處理啊就變成說遭受霸凌者家屬的一個質疑啦那透過本案啦"},{"start":652.115,"end":667.076,"text":"呃本期想要請教就是說我們現行校園的霸凌的防制準則裡面主要是因應小組都是校長副校長你這招召集人成員是教師代表沒有明定參與人的人數的比例這個師長你有感覺這有什麼要改進的所在嗎"},{"start":667.862,"end":688.428,"text":"先說明因為在過去處理的過程當中比較著重在參與的部分所以可能也會有包括老師、家長代表都會有但是確實過去沒有明定人數那很大一個問題是因為他這個準則要從國小、國中、高中到大學所以那個不同教育階段還有學校規模差一代太大"},{"start":689.048,"end":692.391,"text":"有任何疑惑或懷疑會否影響小型學校運作?"},{"start":706.221,"end":732.518,"text":"有沒有公平：是然後呢你選的這個人到底有沒有受到信任：是這個才是重點：是阿不然你這個社會會發燃阿什麼霸凌者到要你把他創造成模範生這個也看起來也好奇怪：是那再來就是說這些疑慮你除了要去把他化解以外阿你調查程序你說4個月身負1個月阿身負阿審議又一個月一個程序你完成至少然後半年起跳那些學生就被抓起來了"},{"start":735.48,"end":753.993,"text":"這也好怪所以本席認為調查程序公正跟廢死這樣的一個狀況如何去做一個改善那你在整個現前校園霸凌因應小組的一個成員的一個選定上增加學者專家代表或輔導人員的一個代表這個部分那我相信人數的部分應該"},{"start":755.074,"end":758.056,"text":"應該趕快去把它做一個讓它更完善那你讓調查的成員的校內跟校外這兩個有一定的一個比例你才可以降低這個未來的整個霸凌事件雙方家屬這樣的一個疑慮"},{"start":772.506,"end":772.926,"text":"減少後續的身負審議．"}]}}}}