{"id":150589,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150589","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fc09d97f3151fdf0883da1c55d80b6035da83422e330f45f8ba9b0039caa7a627203159f7e46c805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:18:17 - 10:26:38","影片長度":"00:08:21","會議時間":"2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請外交部部長報告「美國2024年大選過程對我國及印太地區的衝擊及影響」，並備質詢。\n二、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等 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Index，我先跳過這個，這個是比較複雜的圖形。我們當時在看的時候發現，在美國社會裡面，這個是中國對美國社會的一個滲透圖，可以看到中間灰色那一圈是平均值，這個凸出來、長得比較奇怪的圖形就是美國現在的狀況，那可以看到美國現在被滲透得最嚴重的是學術還有政府，然後它在右下角的Society當然還是比平均高，但是沒有到那麼高，所以我們在看這一個問題的時候就會發現，如果我們按照過去的一些評量標準，顯然他們在中間也就是學術這一塊看起來做了不少事，在上面政治那一塊也做了不少事，然後Society這個部分因為這是我們在2022年的測量標準，那在2023年我還不得而知，但是從最近的資料看起來，他們對文化跟社會的滲透是不遺餘力啦！","所以我舉幾個簡單的例子，第一個就是NBA的例子，因為當時我們在看哈佛跟芝加哥大學民調的時候就發現，他們民意對於中國的反感在NBA那一次的事件是突然起來的，其實這件事情已經很久了，即使他們對中國開始感受到中國看起來是對我們不太友善，跟他們認為中國是一個有危險的、有敵意的國家，其實還是兩件事，所以這個事情在大家的記憶可能不是那麼的熟悉以後它又會慢慢的掉下來。然後接下來就是他們的拼多多還有他們的TikTok，像這些對於他們社會的影響看起來是越來越大。所以我們現在害怕的事情就是，當這張圖下面這個「社會」的影響越來越大之後，它會不會往上侵蝕，就像在剛剛那個圖形裡面對於學界、對於政治人物的侵蝕，不知道現在外交部對於這件事情有什麼應對的方式？"],["田次長中光：我覺得委員提的問題是一個相當大的問題，基本上，現在我們外交部在做的工作，您剛才也有提到對政府、對國會議員、對智庫等等，對大眾來講，現在因為媒體的發展，有的時候可能是很難去說明，我們只能做一個對比的工作，比如說，最近也做過全世界對中國印象的一些分析，印象好的有多少，印象壞的有多少，這個部分我覺得應該可以做一些宣傳，那麼它所謂的戰狼外交事實上對中國的形象並沒有幫助，有80%的人對中國的印象都是負面的。所以我覺得我們可以利用一些方法來告訴大眾，其實這個部分政府官員知道、媒體知道、智庫知道，但是一般大眾可能沒有辦法這麼清楚地知道，所以對這個部分我們可以透過我們在那邊的文化、教育、智庫以及我們各個辦事處的一些活動把這個東西講出來。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝次長的說明，剛剛講的比較像是一些正面的作為，也就是說，因為剛剛有講到美國社會對於中國的想法現在可能漸漸偏向負面，那當然我們可以繼續讓大家知道中國做了什麼事情，但是對於他們要不要support他們的政治人物作為更積極的行動，對他們來講又是一個gap，又是另外一件事。所以像我們這次就看到，我先講休閒娛樂，就是Bishop這位議員在這次TikTok的這個案子裡面投票，因為本來他們有針對TikTok要求要在一百多天之內把它賣掉這樣的一個議案，他投下了反對票，在他投下反對票之後，我們可以看到左邊這個圖，就是TikTok有請大家打電話，更重要的是他們有請大家打電話給這位議員，所以也就是說，在社會上當大家長期使用這些短影音平臺的時候，它跳出了這一個，他也打電話給這個議員，這個議員在發言的時候就有點鬆動了，他說他確實也認為這可能是一個威脅，但是他也覺得，就跟TikTok的講法一樣，包括言論自由還有什麼值得保護等等，因此他投下了反對票，那就形成了一個從社會大眾直接影響到最上層的政府跟國會的決策。所以我們現在當然比較擔心這件事情的是，以往我們會比較忽略這種社會文化的侵蝕跟滲透，但是這個在美國對社會基礎文化的滲透，畢竟他們是採聯邦制，所以他們在州的層級裡面被滲透的情況越來越嚴重，那他又能夠很快地去影響某個議員或者某個議員的兒子，然後某個議員的兒子可能又到白宮、到智庫那邊工作，然後這個議員可能又對特定的議案投下反對票，這是我們比較擔心的，所以我是希望能不能有一些可能更積極的行動去反制中國這樣的一些作為。"],["王司長良玉：謝謝委員的提示，這個確實是我們現在對美工作的一個重點，包括去深化跟各州的關係，另外就是在智庫的這一塊，其實我們最近也剛剛跟美國舉辦了印太民主治理諮商，我們也有特別邀請專門在研究中國這些滲透作為的NGO來參加這樣子的討論。另外，我們跟美國也有一個臺美教育倡議，就是強調在教育方面的合作，包括語言這一塊。所以這些都是我們想要去address現在中國在美國這些全面滲透的作為，希望能夠做一些反制。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝司長的說明，那我綜整一下，就是現在外交部其實把蠻多的心力放在剛剛那個中層結構，因為畢竟要影響到整個社會文化，美國人真的很多，對我們來講，要是我們也有類似TikTok影音平臺的話，我們當然也可以做一些更好的反制措施，但是現在就只是在有限的預算之下，我們只能先從中層結構開始加強起，不管是對於智庫的交流、對於學者的交流，那這個當然蠻重要的是因為他們很多有類似旋轉門，他們很多人也會到政府裡面工作。那就延續上一次提到的2758號決議，其實我覺得也是一樣，因為對2758號……以社會大眾來講，我覺得要發聲大概不容易，但是在中層結構的人能夠為了2758號發聲，甚至可能會比政府跟國會那一個地方還更有力道。所以我想如果接下來有更多這種公民團體又或者說智庫、學界針對2758號做更多這些討論的時候，也希望外交部能夠多多支持。"],["田次長中光：是的。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","李坤城","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","陳培瑜","林憶君","陳永康","羅智強"],"page_start":179,"meetingDate":["2024-03-28"],"gazette_id":"1132101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部部長報告「美國2024年大選過程對我國及印太地區的衝擊及影響」，並備質詢；\n二、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等6案","agenda_id":"1132101_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"150589","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150589","tool":"pyannote","id":"150589-pyannote"},"job_id":"PIv61Wv9Af1QzDaG","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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473.332, \"end\": 473.372, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"昌\", \"start\": 473.372, \"end\": 473.492, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 473.492, \"end\": 473.512, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,291 --> 00:00:25,029\n因為上次比較專注在法律戰那因為這一次我覺得蠻重要的一點是因為我們這份報告是在講這一個不管這一個美國的候選人是誰以及誰當選對台灣的影響所以呢我想說從這一點來看因為畢竟剛剛在報告裡面也有提到非常重要的事情就是其實美國看起來不分黨派\n\n2\n00:00:25,749 --> 00:00:39,242\n對於中國的議題或對於台灣的保護其實有一定的立場但是其實中國一直以來想要去鬆動這個立場所以我想說我們從反過來看就是說我們要怎麼去反制中國去鬆動這個立場的問題今天大概就只著重在這一點而已\n\n3\n00:00:40,854 --> 00:01:08,280\n那這個就是在我認為就是說因為我們現在在講的是總統選舉那所以他代表是政府那我們當然一直以來對於這個國會的外交外交部也是不遺餘力這個是在這個三角形的最上方那中間呢就是還沒到社會大眾包含智庫、學界、civilsociety我想說其實我們的國家跟他們的連結也是蠻多的那最下面就是社會大眾那現在我們就是說如果討論這個美國對台灣的支持\n\n4\n00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:34,325\n我認為其實以報告來講我們的政府這一端或者國會這一端對我們的支持當然我覺得是比較明顯但現在就是最下面這一個所謂社會大眾的支持其實有可能還是要打一個問號那為什麼這樣講就是因為它被鬆動的可能性看起來是最高的所以我大概先從這一個我們在這幾年我們的這個當時我在民間的時候我們民主實驗室有做這個Chinaindex\n\n5\n00:01:35,585 --> 00:01:58,758\n我先跳過這一個這個是比較複雜的圖形我們當時在看的時候發現在美國社會裡面這個是中國對美國社會的一個滲透圖可以看到中間的灰色那一圈是平均值這個圖出來的那一個就是長得比較奇怪的圖形就是美國現在的狀況可以看到美國現在被滲透最嚴重的是學術還有政府\n\n6\n00:01:59,538 --> 00:02:15,146\n他的社會在右下角當然還是比平均高但是沒有到那麼高所以我們在看這個問題的時候就會發現如果我們按照過去的一些評量標準顯然他們在中間那一塊也就是學術這一塊看起來做了不少事\n\n7\n00:02:15,746 --> 00:02:15,766\n蘇貞妮\n\n8\n00:02:46,267 --> 00:03:06,768\n即使他們對中國開始感受到這個中國看起來是看起來對我們不太友善跟他們認為中國是一個有危險的有敵意的國家其實還是兩件事所以這個事情其實大家這個記憶可能不是那麼的熟悉以後還會慢慢掉下來然後接下來就是這一個這個他們的這個拼多多還有他們的TikTok\n\n9\n00:03:07,168 --> 00:03:24,754\n像這一些對於他們社會的影響看起來是越來越大所以我們現在害怕的事情就是當下面這個社會的影響越來越大之後他會不會往上侵蝕就像剛剛那個圖形對於學界然後對於政治人物的侵蝕那不知道現在外交部對於這件事情有什麼應對的方式\n\n10\n00:03:27,550 --> 00:03:37,225\n委員提的問題我覺得是相當大的一個問題基本上現在我們外交部在做的工作您剛剛也提到對政府對國會議員對智庫等等對大眾來講\n\n11\n00:03:42,232 --> 00:04:07,353\n大眾現在因為媒體的發展有的時候可能是很難去說明但是我們只能做一個對比的工作來說比如說最近對中國的印象全世界也做過一些分析印象好的有多少印象壞的有多少這個部分我覺得應該可以做一些宣傳\n\n12\n00:04:08,354 --> 00:04:33,042\n那麼他的一個所謂的戰狼外交事實上對中國的形象並沒有幫助有80%的人對中國的形象都是負面的所以這個部分我覺得我們可以利用一些方法告訴他們大眾其實這個部分政府官員知道媒體知道智庫知道但是一般大眾可能沒有辦法這麼清楚的知道\n\n13\n00:04:33,302 --> 00:04:41,244\n謝謝次長的說明那剛剛講的比較像是一些正面的作為也就是說因為剛剛講的美國社會對於中國的一個想法現在可能漸漸偏向負面那當然我們可以繼續讓大家知道說中國做什麼事情但對於他們要不要support\n\n14\n00:04:59,150 --> 00:05:21,872\n他們的政治人物作為更積極的行動．對他們來講又是一個gap．又是另外一件事所以像在這邊我們這次就看到我休閒娛樂先就是在這一個拜卓這個議員他這個議員在這次TikTok的這個案子裡面他投下了因為本來他們說針對這個TikTok在100多天之內他要把它賣掉這樣的一個議案他投下了反對票\n\n15\n00:05:22,732 --> 00:05:42,918\n當下反對票之後我們可以看到左邊這個圖就是TikTok其實是有請大家打電話那最更重要的是他們其實有請大家打電話給這位議員所以也就是說在社會上當大家在長期使用這些短影音的平台的時候他跳出了這一個他也打電話給這個議員這個議員他在發言的時候他就有點鬆動了他就說他也確實認為這可能是一個威脅\n\n16\n00:05:47,299 --> 00:06:15,229\n但他也覺得就跟替他的講法一樣言論自由啊什麼等等值得保護所以因此他投下了反對票那他就是形成了一個從社會大眾直接影響到最上層的這一個政府跟國會的一個決策所以我們現在當然是比較擔心這件事情是以往我們會比較忽略這種社會文化的侵蝕跟滲透但是這一個社會基礎文化跟滲透在美國的尤其是因為畢竟他們聯邦制嘛所以他們州的層級裡面其實被滲透的情況越來越嚴重\n\n17\n00:06:16,169 --> 00:06:31,894\n那他又能夠很快的去影響某個議員或者某個議員的兒子然後每個議員的兒子可能又到白宮到智庫那邊工作然後這個議員可能又在特定的議案頭下反對票這是我們比較擔心的所以是希望說能不能有一些可能更積極的行動去反制中國這樣的一些作為\n\n18\n00:06:35,600 --> 00:07:01,406\n謝謝委員的提示這個確實是我們現在對美工作的一個重點包括說去深化跟各州的關係那另外呢就是在智庫的這一塊還有就是其實我們最近也剛跟美國舉辦了這個印太民主治理諮商我們也是特別有邀請NGO就是專門在研究中國的滲透的這些作為的來參加這樣子的討論所以另外我們跟美國也有一個台美教育常議也是強調\n\n19\n00:07:03,107 --> 00:07:08,712\n司長的說明,那我正整一下就是說現在外交部其實蠻多的心力是放在剛剛那個中層結構就是說因為畢竟要影響到整個社會文化美國人真的很多\n\n20\n00:07:24,905 --> 00:07:49,050\n對我們來講要不是我們有要是也有TikTok相關的類似的影音平台的話我們當然也可以做一些更好的反制措施但現在就只是在在有限的這個預算之下我們只能先從中層結構開始加強起不管是對於智庫的交流對於學者的交流那這個當然蠻重要的是因為他們很多有類似選轉門嘛他們其實很多也會到政府裡面工作那就延續上一次就是提到的這個2758號決議其實我覺得也是一樣因為2758號決議越多的在因為以\n\n21\n00:07:52,671 --> 00:07:53,512\n沈伯洋委員請回接下來進行詢問委員黃國昌委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2291\t25029\t因為上次比較專注在法律戰那因為這一次我覺得蠻重要的一點是因為我們這份報告是在講這一個不管這一個美國的候選人是誰以及誰當選對台灣的影響所以呢我想說從這一點來看因為畢竟剛剛在報告裡面也有提到非常重要的事情就是其實美國看起來不分黨派\n25749\t39242\t對於中國的議題或對於台灣的保護其實有一定的立場但是其實中國一直以來想要去鬆動這個立場所以我想說我們從反過來看就是說我們要怎麼去反制中國去鬆動這個立場的問題今天大概就只著重在這一點而已\n40854\t68280\t那這個就是在我認為就是說因為我們現在在講的是總統選舉那所以他代表是政府那我們當然一直以來對於這個國會的外交外交部也是不遺餘力這個是在這個三角形的最上方那中間呢就是還沒到社會大眾包含智庫、學界、civil society我想說其實我們的國家跟他們的連結也是蠻多的那最下面就是社會大眾那現在我們就是說如果討論這個美國對台灣的支持\n70160\t94325\t我認為其實以報告來講我們的政府這一端或者國會這一端對我們的支持當然我覺得是比較明顯但現在就是最下面這一個所謂社會大眾的支持其實有可能還是要打一個問號那為什麼這樣講就是因為它被鬆動的可能性看起來是最高的所以我大概先從這一個我們在這幾年我們的這個當時我在民間的時候我們民主實驗室有做這個China index\n95585\t118758\t我先跳過這一個 這個是比較複雜的圖形我們當時在看的時候發現在美國社會裡面這個是中國對美國社會的一個滲透圖可以看到中間的灰色那一圈是平均值這個圖出來的那一個就是長得比較奇怪的圖形就是美國現在的狀況可以看到美國現在被滲透最嚴重的是學術還有政府\n119538\t135146\t他的社會在右下角當然還是比平均高但是沒有到那麼高所以我們在看這個問題的時候就會發現如果我們按照過去的一些評量標準顯然他們在中間那一塊也就是學術這一塊看起來做了不少事\n135746\t135766\t蘇貞妮\n166267\t186768\t即使他們對中國開始感受到這個中國看起來是看起來對我們不太友善跟他們認為中國是一個有危險的有敵意的國家其實還是兩件事所以這個事情其實大家這個記憶可能不是那麼的熟悉以後還會慢慢掉下來然後接下來就是這一個這個他們的這個拼多多還有他們的TikTok\n187168\t204754\t像這一些對於他們社會的影響看起來是越來越大所以我們現在害怕的事情就是當下面這個社會的影響越來越大之後他會不會往上侵蝕就像剛剛那個圖形對於學界然後對於政治人物的侵蝕那不知道現在外交部對於這件事情有什麼應對的方式\n207550\t217225\t委員提的問題我覺得是相當大的一個問題基本上現在我們外交部在做的工作您剛剛也提到對政府對國會議員對智庫等等對大眾來講\n222232\t247353\t大眾現在因為媒體的發展有的時候可能是很難去說明但是我們只能做一個對比的工作來說比如說最近對中國的印象全世界也做過一些分析印象好的有多少印象壞的有多少這個部分我覺得應該可以做一些宣傳\n248354\t273042\t那麼他的一個所謂的戰狼外交事實上對中國的形象並沒有幫助有80%的人對中國的形象都是負面的所以這個部分我覺得我們可以利用一些方法告訴他們大眾其實這個部分政府官員知道媒體知道智庫知道但是一般大眾可能沒有辦法這麼清楚的知道\n273302\t281244\t謝謝次長的說明那剛剛講的比較像是一些正面的作為也就是說因為剛剛講的美國社會對於中國的一個想法現在可能漸漸偏向負面那當然我們可以繼續讓大家知道說中國做什麼事情但對於他們要不要support\n299150\t321872\t他們的政治人物作為更積極的行動．對他們來講又是一個gap．又是另外一件事所以像在這邊我們這次就看到我休閒娛樂先就是在這一個拜卓這個議員他這個議員在這次TikTok的這個案子裡面他投下了因為本來他們說針對這個TikTok在100多天之內他要把它賣掉這樣的一個議案他投下了反對票\n322732\t342918\t當下反對票之後我們可以看到左邊這個圖就是TikTok其實是有請大家打電話那最更重要的是他們其實有請大家打電話給這位議員所以也就是說在社會上當大家在長期使用這些短影音的平台的時候他跳出了這一個他也打電話給這個議員這個議員他在發言的時候他就有點鬆動了他就說他也確實認為這可能是一個威脅\n347299\t375229\t但他也覺得就跟替他的講法一樣言論自由啊什麼等等值得保護所以因此他投下了反對票那他就是形成了一個從社會大眾直接影響到最上層的這一個政府跟國會的一個決策所以我們現在當然是比較擔心這件事情是以往我們會比較忽略這種社會文化的侵蝕跟滲透但是這一個社會基礎文化跟滲透在美國的尤其是因為畢竟他們聯邦制嘛所以他們州的層級裡面其實被滲透的情況越來越嚴重\n376169\t391894\t那他又能夠很快的去影響某個議員或者某個議員的兒子然後每個議員的兒子可能又到白宮到智庫那邊工作然後這個議員可能又在特定的議案頭下反對票這是我們比較擔心的所以是希望說能不能有一些可能更積極的行動去反制中國這樣的一些作為\n395600\t421406\t謝謝委員的提示這個確實是我們現在對美工作的一個重點包括說去深化跟各州的關係那另外呢就是在智庫的這一塊還有就是其實我們最近也剛跟美國舉辦了這個印太民主治理諮商我們也是特別有邀請NGO就是專門在研究中國的滲透的這些作為的來參加這樣子的討論所以另外我們跟美國也有一個台美教育常議也是強調\n423107\t428712\t司長的說明,那我正整一下就是說現在外交部其實蠻多的心力是放在剛剛那個中層結構就是說因為畢竟要影響到整個社會文化美國人真的很多\n444905\t469050\t對我們來講要不是我們有要是也有TikTok相關的類似的影音平台的話我們當然也可以做一些更好的反制措施但現在就只是在在有限的這個預算之下我們只能先從中層結構開始加強起不管是對於智庫的交流對於學者的交流那這個當然蠻重要的是因為他們很多有類似選轉門嘛他們其實很多也會到政府裡面工作那就延續上一次就是提到的這個2758號決議其實我覺得也是一樣因為2758號決議越多的在因為以\n472671\t473512\t沈伯洋委員 請回接下來進行詢問委員 黃國昌委員\n","txt":"因為上次比較專注在法律戰那因為這一次我覺得蠻重要的一點是因為我們這份報告是在講這一個不管這一個美國的候選人是誰以及誰當選對台灣的影響所以呢我想說從這一點來看因為畢竟剛剛在報告裡面也有提到非常重要的事情就是其實美國看起來不分黨派\n對於中國的議題或對於台灣的保護其實有一定的立場但是其實中國一直以來想要去鬆動這個立場所以我想說我們從反過來看就是說我們要怎麼去反制中國去鬆動這個立場的問題今天大概就只著重在這一點而已\n那這個就是在我認為就是說因為我們現在在講的是總統選舉那所以他代表是政府那我們當然一直以來對於這個國會的外交外交部也是不遺餘力這個是在這個三角形的最上方那中間呢就是還沒到社會大眾包含智庫、學界、civil society我想說其實我們的國家跟他們的連結也是蠻多的那最下面就是社會大眾那現在我們就是說如果討論這個美國對台灣的支持\n我認為其實以報告來講我們的政府這一端或者國會這一端對我們的支持當然我覺得是比較明顯但現在就是最下面這一個所謂社會大眾的支持其實有可能還是要打一個問號那為什麼這樣講就是因為它被鬆動的可能性看起來是最高的所以我大概先從這一個我們在這幾年我們的這個當時我在民間的時候我們民主實驗室有做這個China index\n我先跳過這一個 這個是比較複雜的圖形我們當時在看的時候發現在美國社會裡面這個是中國對美國社會的一個滲透圖可以看到中間的灰色那一圈是平均值這個圖出來的那一個就是長得比較奇怪的圖形就是美國現在的狀況可以看到美國現在被滲透最嚴重的是學術還有政府\n他的社會在右下角當然還是比平均高但是沒有到那麼高所以我們在看這個問題的時候就會發現如果我們按照過去的一些評量標準顯然他們在中間那一塊也就是學術這一塊看起來做了不少事\n蘇貞妮\n即使他們對中國開始感受到這個中國看起來是看起來對我們不太友善跟他們認為中國是一個有危險的有敵意的國家其實還是兩件事所以這個事情其實大家這個記憶可能不是那麼的熟悉以後還會慢慢掉下來然後接下來就是這一個這個他們的這個拼多多還有他們的TikTok\n像這一些對於他們社會的影響看起來是越來越大所以我們現在害怕的事情就是當下面這個社會的影響越來越大之後他會不會往上侵蝕就像剛剛那個圖形對於學界然後對於政治人物的侵蝕那不知道現在外交部對於這件事情有什麼應對的方式\n委員提的問題我覺得是相當大的一個問題基本上現在我們外交部在做的工作您剛剛也提到對政府對國會議員對智庫等等對大眾來講\n大眾現在因為媒體的發展有的時候可能是很難去說明但是我們只能做一個對比的工作來說比如說最近對中國的印象全世界也做過一些分析印象好的有多少印象壞的有多少這個部分我覺得應該可以做一些宣傳\n那麼他的一個所謂的戰狼外交事實上對中國的形象並沒有幫助有80%的人對中國的形象都是負面的所以這個部分我覺得我們可以利用一些方法告訴他們大眾其實這個部分政府官員知道媒體知道智庫知道但是一般大眾可能沒有辦法這麼清楚的知道\n謝謝次長的說明那剛剛講的比較像是一些正面的作為也就是說因為剛剛講的美國社會對於中國的一個想法現在可能漸漸偏向負面那當然我們可以繼續讓大家知道說中國做什麼事情但對於他們要不要support\n他們的政治人物作為更積極的行動．對他們來講又是一個gap．又是另外一件事所以像在這邊我們這次就看到我休閒娛樂先就是在這一個拜卓這個議員他這個議員在這次TikTok的這個案子裡面他投下了因為本來他們說針對這個TikTok在100多天之內他要把它賣掉這樣的一個議案他投下了反對票\n當下反對票之後我們可以看到左邊這個圖就是TikTok其實是有請大家打電話那最更重要的是他們其實有請大家打電話給這位議員所以也就是說在社會上當大家在長期使用這些短影音的平台的時候他跳出了這一個他也打電話給這個議員這個議員他在發言的時候他就有點鬆動了他就說他也確實認為這可能是一個威脅\n但他也覺得就跟替他的講法一樣言論自由啊什麼等等值得保護所以因此他投下了反對票那他就是形成了一個從社會大眾直接影響到最上層的這一個政府跟國會的一個決策所以我們現在當然是比較擔心這件事情是以往我們會比較忽略這種社會文化的侵蝕跟滲透但是這一個社會基礎文化跟滲透在美國的尤其是因為畢竟他們聯邦制嘛所以他們州的層級裡面其實被滲透的情況越來越嚴重\n那他又能夠很快的去影響某個議員或者某個議員的兒子然後每個議員的兒子可能又到白宮到智庫那邊工作然後這個議員可能又在特定的議案頭下反對票這是我們比較擔心的所以是希望說能不能有一些可能更積極的行動去反制中國這樣的一些作為\n謝謝委員的提示這個確實是我們現在對美工作的一個重點包括說去深化跟各州的關係那另外呢就是在智庫的這一塊還有就是其實我們最近也剛跟美國舉辦了這個印太民主治理諮商我們也是特別有邀請NGO就是專門在研究中國的滲透的這些作為的來參加這樣子的討論所以另外我們跟美國也有一個台美教育常議也是強調\n司長的說明,那我正整一下就是說現在外交部其實蠻多的心力是放在剛剛那個中層結構就是說因為畢竟要影響到整個社會文化美國人真的很多\n對我們來講要不是我們有要是也有TikTok相關的類似的影音平台的話我們當然也可以做一些更好的反制措施但現在就只是在在有限的這個預算之下我們只能先從中層結構開始加強起不管是對於智庫的交流對於學者的交流那這個當然蠻重要的是因為他們很多有類似選轉門嘛他們其實很多也會到政府裡面工作那就延續上一次就是提到的這個2758號決議其實我覺得也是一樣因為2758號決議越多的在因為以\n沈伯洋委員 請回接下來進行詢問委員 黃國昌委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.291 --> 00:25.029\n因為上次比較專注在法律戰那因為這一次我覺得蠻重要的一點是因為我們這份報告是在講這一個不管這一個美國的候選人是誰以及誰當選對台灣的影響所以呢我想說從這一點來看因為畢竟剛剛在報告裡面也有提到非常重要的事情就是其實美國看起來不分黨派\n\n00:25.749 --> 00:39.242\n對於中國的議題或對於台灣的保護其實有一定的立場但是其實中國一直以來想要去鬆動這個立場所以我想說我們從反過來看就是說我們要怎麼去反制中國去鬆動這個立場的問題今天大概就只著重在這一點而已\n\n00:40.854 --> 01:08.280\n那這個就是在我認為就是說因為我們現在在講的是總統選舉那所以他代表是政府那我們當然一直以來對於這個國會的外交外交部也是不遺餘力這個是在這個三角形的最上方那中間呢就是還沒到社會大眾包含智庫、學界、civilsociety我想說其實我們的國家跟他們的連結也是蠻多的那最下面就是社會大眾那現在我們就是說如果討論這個美國對台灣的支持\n\n01:10.160 --> 01:34.325\n我認為其實以報告來講我們的政府這一端或者國會這一端對我們的支持當然我覺得是比較明顯但現在就是最下面這一個所謂社會大眾的支持其實有可能還是要打一個問號那為什麼這樣講就是因為它被鬆動的可能性看起來是最高的所以我大概先從這一個我們在這幾年我們的這個當時我在民間的時候我們民主實驗室有做這個Chinaindex\n\n01:35.585 --> 01:58.758\n我先跳過這一個這個是比較複雜的圖形我們當時在看的時候發現在美國社會裡面這個是中國對美國社會的一個滲透圖可以看到中間的灰色那一圈是平均值這個圖出來的那一個就是長得比較奇怪的圖形就是美國現在的狀況可以看到美國現在被滲透最嚴重的是學術還有政府\n\n01:59.538 --> 02:15.146\n他的社會在右下角當然還是比平均高但是沒有到那麼高所以我們在看這個問題的時候就會發現如果我們按照過去的一些評量標準顯然他們在中間那一塊也就是學術這一塊看起來做了不少事\n\n02:15.746 --> 02:15.766\n蘇貞妮\n\n02:46.267 --> 03:06.768\n即使他們對中國開始感受到這個中國看起來是看起來對我們不太友善跟他們認為中國是一個有危險的有敵意的國家其實還是兩件事所以這個事情其實大家這個記憶可能不是那麼的熟悉以後還會慢慢掉下來然後接下來就是這一個這個他們的這個拼多多還有他們的TikTok\n\n03:07.168 --> 03:24.754\n像這一些對於他們社會的影響看起來是越來越大所以我們現在害怕的事情就是當下面這個社會的影響越來越大之後他會不會往上侵蝕就像剛剛那個圖形對於學界然後對於政治人物的侵蝕那不知道現在外交部對於這件事情有什麼應對的方式\n\n03:27.550 --> 03:37.225\n委員提的問題我覺得是相當大的一個問題基本上現在我們外交部在做的工作您剛剛也提到對政府對國會議員對智庫等等對大眾來講\n\n03:42.232 --> 04:07.353\n大眾現在因為媒體的發展有的時候可能是很難去說明但是我們只能做一個對比的工作來說比如說最近對中國的印象全世界也做過一些分析印象好的有多少印象壞的有多少這個部分我覺得應該可以做一些宣傳\n\n04:08.354 --> 04:33.042\n那麼他的一個所謂的戰狼外交事實上對中國的形象並沒有幫助有80%的人對中國的形象都是負面的所以這個部分我覺得我們可以利用一些方法告訴他們大眾其實這個部分政府官員知道媒體知道智庫知道但是一般大眾可能沒有辦法這麼清楚的知道\n\n04:33.302 --> 04:41.244\n謝謝次長的說明那剛剛講的比較像是一些正面的作為也就是說因為剛剛講的美國社會對於中國的一個想法現在可能漸漸偏向負面那當然我們可以繼續讓大家知道說中國做什麼事情但對於他們要不要support\n\n04:59.150 --> 05:21.872\n他們的政治人物作為更積極的行動．對他們來講又是一個gap．又是另外一件事所以像在這邊我們這次就看到我休閒娛樂先就是在這一個拜卓這個議員他這個議員在這次TikTok的這個案子裡面他投下了因為本來他們說針對這個TikTok在100多天之內他要把它賣掉這樣的一個議案他投下了反對票\n\n05:22.732 --> 05:42.918\n當下反對票之後我們可以看到左邊這個圖就是TikTok其實是有請大家打電話那最更重要的是他們其實有請大家打電話給這位議員所以也就是說在社會上當大家在長期使用這些短影音的平台的時候他跳出了這一個他也打電話給這個議員這個議員他在發言的時候他就有點鬆動了他就說他也確實認為這可能是一個威脅\n\n05:47.299 --> 06:15.229\n但他也覺得就跟替他的講法一樣言論自由啊什麼等等值得保護所以因此他投下了反對票那他就是形成了一個從社會大眾直接影響到最上層的這一個政府跟國會的一個決策所以我們現在當然是比較擔心這件事情是以往我們會比較忽略這種社會文化的侵蝕跟滲透但是這一個社會基礎文化跟滲透在美國的尤其是因為畢竟他們聯邦制嘛所以他們州的層級裡面其實被滲透的情況越來越嚴重\n\n06:16.169 --> 06:31.894\n那他又能夠很快的去影響某個議員或者某個議員的兒子然後每個議員的兒子可能又到白宮到智庫那邊工作然後這個議員可能又在特定的議案頭下反對票這是我們比較擔心的所以是希望說能不能有一些可能更積極的行動去反制中國這樣的一些作為\n\n06:35.600 --> 07:01.406\n謝謝委員的提示這個確實是我們現在對美工作的一個重點包括說去深化跟各州的關係那另外呢就是在智庫的這一塊還有就是其實我們最近也剛跟美國舉辦了這個印太民主治理諮商我們也是特別有邀請NGO就是專門在研究中國的滲透的這些作為的來參加這樣子的討論所以另外我們跟美國也有一個台美教育常議也是強調\n\n07:03.107 --> 07:08.712\n司長的說明,那我正整一下就是說現在外交部其實蠻多的心力是放在剛剛那個中層結構就是說因為畢竟要影響到整個社會文化美國人真的很多\n\n07:24.905 --> 07:49.050\n對我們來講要不是我們有要是也有TikTok相關的類似的影音平台的話我們當然也可以做一些更好的反制措施但現在就只是在在有限的這個預算之下我們只能先從中層結構開始加強起不管是對於智庫的交流對於學者的交流那這個當然蠻重要的是因為他們很多有類似選轉門嘛他們其實很多也會到政府裡面工作那就延續上一次就是提到的這個2758號決議其實我覺得也是一樣因為2758號決議越多的在因為以\n\n07:52.671 --> 07:53.512\n沈伯洋委員請回接下來進行詢問委員黃國昌委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.291,"end":25.029,"text":"因為上次比較專注在法律戰那因為這一次我覺得蠻重要的一點是因為我們這份報告是在講這一個不管這一個美國的候選人是誰以及誰當選對台灣的影響所以呢我想說從這一點來看因為畢竟剛剛在報告裡面也有提到非常重要的事情就是其實美國看起來不分黨派"},{"start":25.749,"end":39.242,"text":"對於中國的議題或對於台灣的保護其實有一定的立場但是其實中國一直以來想要去鬆動這個立場所以我想說我們從反過來看就是說我們要怎麼去反制中國去鬆動這個立場的問題今天大概就只著重在這一點而已"},{"start":40.854,"end":68.28,"text":"那這個就是在我認為就是說因為我們現在在講的是總統選舉那所以他代表是政府那我們當然一直以來對於這個國會的外交外交部也是不遺餘力這個是在這個三角形的最上方那中間呢就是還沒到社會大眾包含智庫、學界、civil society我想說其實我們的國家跟他們的連結也是蠻多的那最下面就是社會大眾那現在我們就是說如果討論這個美國對台灣的支持"},{"start":70.16,"end":94.325,"text":"我認為其實以報告來講我們的政府這一端或者國會這一端對我們的支持當然我覺得是比較明顯但現在就是最下面這一個所謂社會大眾的支持其實有可能還是要打一個問號那為什麼這樣講就是因為它被鬆動的可能性看起來是最高的所以我大概先從這一個我們在這幾年我們的這個當時我在民間的時候我們民主實驗室有做這個China index"},{"start":95.585,"end":118.758,"text":"我先跳過這一個 這個是比較複雜的圖形我們當時在看的時候發現在美國社會裡面這個是中國對美國社會的一個滲透圖可以看到中間的灰色那一圈是平均值這個圖出來的那一個就是長得比較奇怪的圖形就是美國現在的狀況可以看到美國現在被滲透最嚴重的是學術還有政府"},{"start":119.538,"end":135.146,"text":"他的社會在右下角當然還是比平均高但是沒有到那麼高所以我們在看這個問題的時候就會發現如果我們按照過去的一些評量標準顯然他們在中間那一塊也就是學術這一塊看起來做了不少事"},{"start":135.746,"end":135.766,"text":"蘇貞妮"},{"start":166.267,"end":186.768,"text":"即使他們對中國開始感受到這個中國看起來是看起來對我們不太友善跟他們認為中國是一個有危險的有敵意的國家其實還是兩件事所以這個事情其實大家這個記憶可能不是那麼的熟悉以後還會慢慢掉下來然後接下來就是這一個這個他們的這個拼多多還有他們的TikTok"},{"start":187.168,"end":204.754,"text":"像這一些對於他們社會的影響看起來是越來越大所以我們現在害怕的事情就是當下面這個社會的影響越來越大之後他會不會往上侵蝕就像剛剛那個圖形對於學界然後對於政治人物的侵蝕那不知道現在外交部對於這件事情有什麼應對的方式"},{"start":207.55,"end":217.225,"text":"委員提的問題我覺得是相當大的一個問題基本上現在我們外交部在做的工作您剛剛也提到對政府對國會議員對智庫等等對大眾來講"},{"start":222.232,"end":247.353,"text":"大眾現在因為媒體的發展有的時候可能是很難去說明但是我們只能做一個對比的工作來說比如說最近對中國的印象全世界也做過一些分析印象好的有多少印象壞的有多少這個部分我覺得應該可以做一些宣傳"},{"start":248.354,"end":273.042,"text":"那麼他的一個所謂的戰狼外交事實上對中國的形象並沒有幫助有80%的人對中國的形象都是負面的所以這個部分我覺得我們可以利用一些方法告訴他們大眾其實這個部分政府官員知道媒體知道智庫知道但是一般大眾可能沒有辦法這麼清楚的知道"},{"start":273.302,"end":281.244,"text":"謝謝次長的說明那剛剛講的比較像是一些正面的作為也就是說因為剛剛講的美國社會對於中國的一個想法現在可能漸漸偏向負面那當然我們可以繼續讓大家知道說中國做什麼事情但對於他們要不要support"},{"start":299.15,"end":321.872,"text":"他們的政治人物作為更積極的行動．對他們來講又是一個gap．又是另外一件事所以像在這邊我們這次就看到我休閒娛樂先就是在這一個拜卓這個議員他這個議員在這次TikTok的這個案子裡面他投下了因為本來他們說針對這個TikTok在100多天之內他要把它賣掉這樣的一個議案他投下了反對票"},{"start":322.732,"end":342.918,"text":"當下反對票之後我們可以看到左邊這個圖就是TikTok其實是有請大家打電話那最更重要的是他們其實有請大家打電話給這位議員所以也就是說在社會上當大家在長期使用這些短影音的平台的時候他跳出了這一個他也打電話給這個議員這個議員他在發言的時候他就有點鬆動了他就說他也確實認為這可能是一個威脅"},{"start":347.299,"end":375.229,"text":"但他也覺得就跟替他的講法一樣言論自由啊什麼等等值得保護所以因此他投下了反對票那他就是形成了一個從社會大眾直接影響到最上層的這一個政府跟國會的一個決策所以我們現在當然是比較擔心這件事情是以往我們會比較忽略這種社會文化的侵蝕跟滲透但是這一個社會基礎文化跟滲透在美國的尤其是因為畢竟他們聯邦制嘛所以他們州的層級裡面其實被滲透的情況越來越嚴重"},{"start":376.169,"end":391.894,"text":"那他又能夠很快的去影響某個議員或者某個議員的兒子然後每個議員的兒子可能又到白宮到智庫那邊工作然後這個議員可能又在特定的議案頭下反對票這是我們比較擔心的所以是希望說能不能有一些可能更積極的行動去反制中國這樣的一些作為"},{"start":395.6,"end":421.406,"text":"謝謝委員的提示這個確實是我們現在對美工作的一個重點包括說去深化跟各州的關係那另外呢就是在智庫的這一塊還有就是其實我們最近也剛跟美國舉辦了這個印太民主治理諮商我們也是特別有邀請NGO就是專門在研究中國的滲透的這些作為的來參加這樣子的討論所以另外我們跟美國也有一個台美教育常議也是強調"},{"start":423.107,"end":428.712,"text":"司長的說明,那我正整一下就是說現在外交部其實蠻多的心力是放在剛剛那個中層結構就是說因為畢竟要影響到整個社會文化美國人真的很多"},{"start":444.905,"end":469.05,"text":"對我們來講要不是我們有要是也有TikTok相關的類似的影音平台的話我們當然也可以做一些更好的反制措施但現在就只是在在有限的這個預算之下我們只能先從中層結構開始加強起不管是對於智庫的交流對於學者的交流那這個當然蠻重要的是因為他們很多有類似選轉門嘛他們其實很多也會到政府裡面工作那就延續上一次就是提到的這個2758號決議其實我覺得也是一樣因為2758號決議越多的在因為以"},{"start":472.671,"end":473.512,"text":"沈伯洋委員 請回接下來進行詢問委員 黃國昌委員"}]}}}}