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soft是基於什麼條件。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，這個牽涉到雙邊之間談判的條件，對不對？"],["田次長中光：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒有關係，我們後面再來討論。今天外交部的書面報告有講，因為現在我們還是討論美國大選，報告提到慎防美國選情升溫下，兩岸議題遭操弄成為政治攻防議題。次長要不要說明一下，操弄是什麼意思？怎麼樣的操弄，你能不能舉個例子給大家說明一下？"],["田次長中光：剛才委員也提到，不是您，而是前面的委員提到，比如假訊息、比如是認知作戰的、比如他們提供一些誘因的，我覺得各方方面面都會有一些被操弄的影響在，這對我們並不是一個好的現象。"],["牛委員煦庭：並不是一個好的現象？"],["田次長中光：我所謂操弄，您瞭解我的意思嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：因為你剛剛講的是認知作戰，也就是他們彼此之間會不會用假訊息的方式去介選，那是另外一個層面，但是你的報告是寫「兩岸議題被操弄」，換言之，兩岸議題也許是民主黨的候選人或共和黨的候選人針對兩岸議題的表態，或者是拿來做政治攻防的工具，然後對我國的國家利益造成衝擊，目前看起來有沒有這樣的狀況，有沒有可能發生這樣的事？"],["田次長中光：可能性是有，但是我們密切觀察。"],["牛委員煦庭：外交部的立場，你應該不希望發生這樣的事，對不對？"],["田次長中光：當然不希望。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們可以看出來，執政的民主黨現在的走向看起來是往緩和的方向走，我們剛剛有討論過，他的對手也就是曾經開啟中美貿易戰的川普，以目前你們所知，他會希望美中關係緩和，還是對抗？"],["田次長中光：這個要看他的選民要走哪一條路。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！看他的選民走哪一條路……"],["田次長中光：看他的選民在選舉當中，選民需要他走哪一條路，怎麼樣的路可以吸收到選民的票，我覺得這才是重要的。"],["牛委員煦庭：目前你掌握的狀況，你們對於選舉的研判是怎麼樣的？"],["田次長中光：我們從兩個角度來看，一個是中美對抗，第二個是印太戰略的，這兩個東西其實是有一點點矛盾的，如果印太戰略要守得好，勢必要對中國採取比較嚴格……"],["牛委員煦庭：比較強硬，對不對？"],["田次長中光：比較強硬。如果對中國比較軟的，印太戰略可能就沒有辦法推動這麼好，因為2017年是川普推動印太戰略，所以對他來講，它非常非常重要。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以以你的評斷，相對來講，川普可能會稍微往對抗的方向靠攏一點，我們不要講說很極端這樣，對不對？研判方向可能會是這樣，對不對？"],["田次長中光：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我最後一點點時間，我只是要提醒外交部。我相信剛剛的詢答是一個很理性的討論，然後大家做一個狀況的研判。美中關係緩和的時候，剛剛其實部長一開始就回答我今天想要問的主要問題，不要因為中美關係的變化，然後犧牲了臺灣利益，因為過往的一些經驗告訴我們，當中美關係要走向緩和的時候，因為中國大陸對臺灣議題非常關心，我們的國家利益會不會被拿去成為他們中美雙方強權談判的交換籌碼？這一點，外交部一定要充分的掌握，不要讓彼此之間的衝突影響我們的國家利益。"],["田次長中光：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天因為時間有限，我們沒有辦法深入探討，但初步來做這樣一個對話，也希望外交部好好掌握，更重要的是，我同意剛剛……當然我們自己做政治人物，要守住自己的立場，關注好內政問題可能比較重要，好不好？"],["田次長中光：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長辛苦了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員，田次長請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","羅美玲","馬文君","洪申翰","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","李坤城","牛煦庭","徐巧芯","陳培瑜","林憶君","陳永康","羅智強"],"page_start":179,"meetingDate":["2024-03-28"],"gazette_id":"1132101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部部長報告「美國2024年大選過程對我國及印太地區的衝擊及影響」，並備質詢；\n二、處理院會交付113年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等6案","agenda_id":"1132101_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"150594","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150594","tool":"pyannote","id":"150594-pyannote"},"job_id":"fZgfviSISD7ZtNw7","queued_at":"2024-06-01 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}]}, {\"start\": 19.266, \"end\": 29.036, \"text\": \"那大體上來講他們都認為說這個中美對抗的態勢如果往緩和的方向走的話也有助於降低這個台海的這個衝突風險請問次長同意這樣的說法嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 19.266, \"end\": 19.446, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 19.446, \"end\": 19.727, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 19.727, \"end\": 20.147, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 20.147, \"end\": 20.347, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 20.347, \"end\": 21.889, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 21.889, \"end\": 22.029, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 22.029, \"end\": 22.389, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"抗\", \"start\": 22.389, \"end\": 22.569, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 22.569, 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0.799}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 29.016, \"end\": 29.036, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 32.086, \"end\": 54.89, \"text\": \"看他們降低是用什麼樣的一個條件來談的降低有很多的因素那個因素會不會影響台灣的重要性我覺得這要值得觀察目前看起來大的趨勢看起來是有和緩的一些跡象雖然速度好像沒有想像中這麼快那目前為止我們的國家利益有被犧牲掉嗎在目前發生的事情之下\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 32.086, \"end\": 32.246, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 32.246, \"end\": 32.567, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"降\", \"start\": 32.567, \"end\": 32.867, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 32.867, \"end\": 33.047, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 33.047, \"end\": 33.167, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 33.167, \"end\": 33.388, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 33.388, \"end\": 33.708, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 33.708, \"end\": 33.788, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 33.788, \"end\": 34.329, \"score\": 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\"被\", \"start\": 52.107, \"end\": 52.327, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"犧\"}, {\"word\": \"牲\", \"start\": 52.327, \"end\": 52.447, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"掉\", \"start\": 52.447, \"end\": 52.908, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 52.908, \"end\": 53.288, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 53.288, \"end\": 53.428, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 53.428, \"end\": 53.748, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 53.748, \"end\": 53.848, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 53.848, \"end\": 53.929, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 53.929, \"end\": 54.049, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 54.049, \"end\": 54.749, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 54.749, \"end\": 54.87, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 54.87, \"end\": 54.89, \"score\": 0.875}]}, {\"start\": 55.868, \"end\": 82.839, \"text\": \"目前沒有我們堅持我們堅守的很嚴格我們跟美國的關係也一直維持的相當好跟歐盟的關係也維持的非常好日本韓國都維持的非常好所以按照這樣子的國際趨勢的一個走向目前來講對中華民國來說是不錯的因為大的環境和緩了但相對來講我們國家利益沒有被犧牲是這樣做的嗎是的但是還可以更好還可以更好那你要不要說明一下怎麼樣可以更好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 55.868, \"end\": 56.028, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 56.028, \"end\": 56.188, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 56.188, \"end\": 56.348, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 56.348, \"end\": 56.448, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 56.448, \"end\": 56.988, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"堅\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 56.988, \"end\": 57.469, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 57.469, \"end\": 57.889, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"堅\"}, {\"word\": \"守\", \"start\": 57.889, \"end\": 58.029, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 58.029, \"end\": 58.409, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 58.409, \"end\": 58.849, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 58.849, \"end\": 59.409, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 59.409, \"end\": 59.63, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 59.63, \"end\": 59.75, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 59.75, \"end\": 60.03, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 60.03, \"end\": 60.49, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 60.49, \"end\": 60.63, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 60.63, \"end\": 60.79, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 60.79, \"end\": 61.09, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"維\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 61.09, \"end\": 61.19, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 61.19, \"end\": 61.31, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 61.31, \"end\": 61.71, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 61.71, \"end\": 62.151, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 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324.306, \"end\": 324.326, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 324.326, \"end\": 324.346, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"徐\", \"start\": 324.346, \"end\": 324.366, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"曉\"}, {\"word\": \"欣\", \"start\": 324.366, \"end\": 324.527, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 324.527, \"end\": 324.547, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,269 --> 00:00:17,004\n今天討論的是美選對台灣的影響當然免不了聊聊中美關係聊聊兩岸關係本期過去是內政委員會的委員我們曾經質詢過陸委會質詢過海基會當初的主委跟董事長其實我們都討論過美中關係的議題也討論過兩岸的議題\n\n2\n00:00:19,266 --> 00:00:29,036\n那大體上來講他們都認為說這個中美對抗的態勢如果往緩和的方向走的話也有助於降低這個台海的這個衝突風險請問次長同意這樣的說法嗎\n\n3\n00:00:32,086 --> 00:00:54,890\n看他們降低是用什麼樣的一個條件來談的降低有很多的因素那個因素會不會影響台灣的重要性我覺得這要值得觀察目前看起來大的趨勢看起來是有和緩的一些跡象雖然速度好像沒有想像中這麼快那目前為止我們的國家利益有被犧牲掉嗎在目前發生的事情之下\n\n4\n00:00:55,868 --> 00:01:22,839\n目前沒有我們堅持我們堅守的很嚴格我們跟美國的關係也一直維持的相當好跟歐盟的關係也維持的非常好日本韓國都維持的非常好所以按照這樣子的國際趨勢的一個走向目前來講對中華民國來說是不錯的因為大的環境和緩了但相對來講我們國家利益沒有被犧牲是這樣做的嗎是的但是還可以更好還可以更好那你要不要說明一下怎麼樣可以更好\n\n5\n00:01:24,728 --> 00:01:48,705\n當然如果說民主國家能夠大家再來研究這個民主制度所帶來的一些對民生樂利的事情那麼把台灣怎麼樣推到國際組織那麼台灣加入國際組織是對國際組織本身是有幫助的我們並不是為了加入而加入這是一個互相的對不對沒錯比如說世界衛生組織好了\n\n6\n00:01:48,905 --> 00:02:12,882\n我們可以貢獻我們的技術優勢我們已經把小孩麻痺、把那個瘧疾已經老早就根除了但是很多國家還是受害中華民國被打壓的狀況大家都不樂見對不對好那我們就回到大的主題來問以次長的經驗來看美中關係如果是緩和的局勢比較有助於完成我們剛剛次長講希望達成的目標還是對抗的態勢的時候比較容易完成這樣的目標\n\n7\n00:02:15,530 --> 00:02:26,225\n我沒有辦法告訴您這個不太確定很難很難這個國際關係變化萬千這很難那他各有看一看中國他是基於什麼條件對這個牽涉到雙邊之間的談判的條件對不對好沒有關係這我們後面來討論\n\n8\n00:02:30,791 --> 00:02:51,887\n那今天這個外交部的書面報告有講因為現在我們還是討論美國大選嘛就要慎防美國選情升溫之下兩岸議題操弄變成一個政治攻防的議題喔市長要不要說明一下操弄是什麼意思?怎麼樣的操弄?舉個例子給大家說明一下剛才委員也提到不是您喔你前面的委員提到比如說這個假訊息的假如說比如說是認知作戰的\n\n9\n00:02:58,191 --> 00:03:12,420\n比如說他們提供一些誘因的我覺得各方方面面都會有一些被操弄的一些影響在的話這對我們這個並不是一個好的現象\n\n10\n00:03:13,479 --> 00:03:40,174\n並不是一個好的現象我所謂操弄您了解我的意思嗎因為你剛剛講的是認知作戰也就是說他們彼此之間會不會用假訊息的方式去竊選那是另外一個層面但是你的報告是寫說兩岸議題被操弄換言之就是兩岸議題也許是民主黨的候選人或共和黨的候選人針對兩岸議題的表態或者是拿來做政治攻防的工具然後對這個對我國的國家利益造成衝擊目前看起來有沒有這樣的狀況有沒有可能發生這樣的事可能事實是有但是我們密切觀察\n\n11\n00:03:41,667 --> 00:04:02,303\n你外交部的立場應該不希望發生這樣的事,對不對?當然不希望我們可以看出來,現在這個民主黨執政的民主黨現在的走向看起來是往緩和的方向走,我們剛剛有討論過那他的對手,曾經開啟中美貿易戰的川普你覺得他以目前你們的所知他會希望美中關係是緩和還是對抗?\n\n12\n00:04:05,885 --> 00:04:07,105\n目前你掌握的狀況,你們對選舉的研判是怎麼樣的?\n\n13\n00:04:23,162 --> 00:04:38,226\n我們從兩個角度來看一個中美對抗第二個是印太戰略的這兩個東西其實是有一點點矛盾的如果說印太戰略要守得好的話那勢必要對中國採取比較嚴格的比較強硬如果說對\n\n14\n00:04:42,408 --> 00:04:57,145\n中國比較軟的印太戰略可能就沒有辦法向他推動這麼好因為2017年是川普推動印太戰略對他來講他非常非常重要所以你的評斷川普相對來講可能稍微要往對抗的方向靠攏一點我們不要講說很極端這樣對不對\n\n15\n00:04:59,227 --> 00:04:59,247\n韓國瑜\n\n16\n00:05:23,846 --> 00:05:24,547\n接下來進行詢答委員是徐曉欣委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n269\t17004\t今天討論的是美選對台灣的影響當然免不了聊聊中美關係 聊聊兩岸關係本期過去是內政委員會的委員我們曾經質詢過陸委會 質詢過海基會當初的主委跟董事長其實我們都討論過美中關係的議題也討論過兩岸的議題\n19266\t29036\t那大體上來講他們都認為說這個中美對抗的態勢如果往緩和的方向走的話也有助於降低這個台海的這個衝突風險請問次長同意這樣的說法嗎\n32086\t54890\t看他們降低是用什麼樣的一個條件來談的降低有很多的因素那個因素會不會影響台灣的重要性我覺得這要值得觀察目前看起來大的趨勢看起來是有和緩的一些跡象雖然速度好像沒有想像中這麼快那目前為止我們的國家利益有被犧牲掉嗎在目前發生的事情之下\n55868\t82839\t目前沒有我們堅持我們堅守的很嚴格我們跟美國的關係也一直維持的相當好跟歐盟的關係也維持的非常好日本韓國都維持的非常好所以按照這樣子的國際趨勢的一個走向目前來講對中華民國來說是不錯的因為大的環境和緩了但相對來講我們國家利益沒有被犧牲是這樣做的嗎是的但是還可以更好還可以更好那你要不要說明一下怎麼樣可以更好\n84728\t108705\t當然如果說民主國家能夠大家再來研究這個民主制度所帶來的一些對民生樂利的事情那麼把台灣怎麼樣推到國際組織那麼台灣加入國際組織是對國際組織本身是有幫助的我們並不是為了加入而加入這是一個互相的對不對沒錯比如說世界衛生組織好了\n108905\t132882\t我們可以貢獻我們的技術優勢我們已經把小孩麻痺、把那個瘧疾已經老早就根除了但是很多國家還是受害中華民國被打壓的狀況大家都不樂見對不對好那我們就回到大的主題來問以次長的經驗來看美中關係如果是緩和的局勢比較有助於完成我們剛剛次長講希望達成的目標還是對抗的態勢的時候比較容易完成這樣的目標\n135530\t146225\t我沒有辦法告訴您這個不太確定很難很難這個國際關係變化萬千這很難那他各有看一看中國他是基於什麼條件對這個牽涉到雙邊之間的談判的條件對不對好沒有關係這我們後面來討論\n150791\t171887\t那今天這個外交部的書面報告有講因為現在我們還是討論美國大選嘛就要慎防美國選情升溫之下兩岸議題操弄變成一個政治攻防的議題喔市長要不要說明一下操弄是什麼意思?怎麼樣的操弄?舉個例子給大家說明一下剛才委員也提到不是您喔你前面的委員提到比如說這個假訊息的假如說比如說是認知作戰的\n178191\t192420\t比如說他們提供一些誘因的我覺得各方方面面都會有一些被操弄的一些影響在的話這對我們這個並不是一個好的現象\n193479\t220174\t並不是一個好的現象我所謂操弄您了解我的意思嗎因為你剛剛講的是認知作戰也就是說他們彼此之間會不會用假訊息的方式去竊選那是另外一個層面但是你的報告是寫說兩岸議題被操弄換言之就是兩岸議題也許是民主黨的候選人或共和黨的候選人針對兩岸議題的表態或者是拿來做政治攻防的工具然後對這個對我國的國家利益造成衝擊目前看起來有沒有這樣的狀況有沒有可能發生這樣的事可能事實是有但是我們密切觀察\n221667\t242303\t你外交部的立場應該不希望發生這樣的事,對不對?當然不希望我們可以看出來,現在這個民主黨執政的民主黨現在的走向看起來是往緩和的方向走,我們剛剛有討論過那他的對手,曾經開啟中美貿易戰的川普你覺得他以目前你們的所知他會希望美中關係是緩和還是對抗?\n245885\t247105\t目前你掌握的狀況,你們對選舉的研判是怎麼樣的?\n263162\t278226\t我們從兩個角度來看一個中美對抗第二個是印太戰略的這兩個東西其實是有一點點矛盾的如果說印太戰略要守得好的話那勢必要對中國採取比較嚴格的比較強硬如果說對\n282408\t297145\t中國比較軟的印太戰略可能就沒有辦法向他推動這麼好因為2017年是川普推動印太戰略對他來講他非常非常重要所以你的評斷川普相對來講可能稍微要往對抗的方向靠攏一點我們不要講說很極端這樣對不對\n299227\t299247\t韓國瑜\n323846\t324547\t接下來進行詢答委員是徐曉欣委員\n","txt":"今天討論的是美選對台灣的影響當然免不了聊聊中美關係 聊聊兩岸關係本期過去是內政委員會的委員我們曾經質詢過陸委會 質詢過海基會當初的主委跟董事長其實我們都討論過美中關係的議題也討論過兩岸的議題\n那大體上來講他們都認為說這個中美對抗的態勢如果往緩和的方向走的話也有助於降低這個台海的這個衝突風險請問次長同意這樣的說法嗎\n看他們降低是用什麼樣的一個條件來談的降低有很多的因素那個因素會不會影響台灣的重要性我覺得這要值得觀察目前看起來大的趨勢看起來是有和緩的一些跡象雖然速度好像沒有想像中這麼快那目前為止我們的國家利益有被犧牲掉嗎在目前發生的事情之下\n目前沒有我們堅持我們堅守的很嚴格我們跟美國的關係也一直維持的相當好跟歐盟的關係也維持的非常好日本韓國都維持的非常好所以按照這樣子的國際趨勢的一個走向目前來講對中華民國來說是不錯的因為大的環境和緩了但相對來講我們國家利益沒有被犧牲是這樣做的嗎是的但是還可以更好還可以更好那你要不要說明一下怎麼樣可以更好\n當然如果說民主國家能夠大家再來研究這個民主制度所帶來的一些對民生樂利的事情那麼把台灣怎麼樣推到國際組織那麼台灣加入國際組織是對國際組織本身是有幫助的我們並不是為了加入而加入這是一個互相的對不對沒錯比如說世界衛生組織好了\n我們可以貢獻我們的技術優勢我們已經把小孩麻痺、把那個瘧疾已經老早就根除了但是很多國家還是受害中華民國被打壓的狀況大家都不樂見對不對好那我們就回到大的主題來問以次長的經驗來看美中關係如果是緩和的局勢比較有助於完成我們剛剛次長講希望達成的目標還是對抗的態勢的時候比較容易完成這樣的目標\n我沒有辦法告訴您這個不太確定很難很難這個國際關係變化萬千這很難那他各有看一看中國他是基於什麼條件對這個牽涉到雙邊之間的談判的條件對不對好沒有關係這我們後面來討論\n那今天這個外交部的書面報告有講因為現在我們還是討論美國大選嘛就要慎防美國選情升溫之下兩岸議題操弄變成一個政治攻防的議題喔市長要不要說明一下操弄是什麼意思?怎麼樣的操弄?舉個例子給大家說明一下剛才委員也提到不是您喔你前面的委員提到比如說這個假訊息的假如說比如說是認知作戰的\n比如說他們提供一些誘因的我覺得各方方面面都會有一些被操弄的一些影響在的話這對我們這個並不是一個好的現象\n並不是一個好的現象我所謂操弄您了解我的意思嗎因為你剛剛講的是認知作戰也就是說他們彼此之間會不會用假訊息的方式去竊選那是另外一個層面但是你的報告是寫說兩岸議題被操弄換言之就是兩岸議題也許是民主黨的候選人或共和黨的候選人針對兩岸議題的表態或者是拿來做政治攻防的工具然後對這個對我國的國家利益造成衝擊目前看起來有沒有這樣的狀況有沒有可能發生這樣的事可能事實是有但是我們密切觀察\n你外交部的立場應該不希望發生這樣的事,對不對?當然不希望我們可以看出來,現在這個民主黨執政的民主黨現在的走向看起來是往緩和的方向走,我們剛剛有討論過那他的對手,曾經開啟中美貿易戰的川普你覺得他以目前你們的所知他會希望美中關係是緩和還是對抗?\n目前你掌握的狀況,你們對選舉的研判是怎麼樣的?\n我們從兩個角度來看一個中美對抗第二個是印太戰略的這兩個東西其實是有一點點矛盾的如果說印太戰略要守得好的話那勢必要對中國採取比較嚴格的比較強硬如果說對\n中國比較軟的印太戰略可能就沒有辦法向他推動這麼好因為2017年是川普推動印太戰略對他來講他非常非常重要所以你的評斷川普相對來講可能稍微要往對抗的方向靠攏一點我們不要講說很極端這樣對不對\n韓國瑜\n接下來進行詢答委員是徐曉欣委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.269 --> 00:17.004\n今天討論的是美選對台灣的影響當然免不了聊聊中美關係聊聊兩岸關係本期過去是內政委員會的委員我們曾經質詢過陸委會質詢過海基會當初的主委跟董事長其實我們都討論過美中關係的議題也討論過兩岸的議題\n\n00:19.266 --> 00:29.036\n那大體上來講他們都認為說這個中美對抗的態勢如果往緩和的方向走的話也有助於降低這個台海的這個衝突風險請問次長同意這樣的說法嗎\n\n00:32.086 --> 00:54.890\n看他們降低是用什麼樣的一個條件來談的降低有很多的因素那個因素會不會影響台灣的重要性我覺得這要值得觀察目前看起來大的趨勢看起來是有和緩的一些跡象雖然速度好像沒有想像中這麼快那目前為止我們的國家利益有被犧牲掉嗎在目前發生的事情之下\n\n00:55.868 --> 01:22.839\n目前沒有我們堅持我們堅守的很嚴格我們跟美國的關係也一直維持的相當好跟歐盟的關係也維持的非常好日本韓國都維持的非常好所以按照這樣子的國際趨勢的一個走向目前來講對中華民國來說是不錯的因為大的環境和緩了但相對來講我們國家利益沒有被犧牲是這樣做的嗎是的但是還可以更好還可以更好那你要不要說明一下怎麼樣可以更好\n\n01:24.728 --> 01:48.705\n當然如果說民主國家能夠大家再來研究這個民主制度所帶來的一些對民生樂利的事情那麼把台灣怎麼樣推到國際組織那麼台灣加入國際組織是對國際組織本身是有幫助的我們並不是為了加入而加入這是一個互相的對不對沒錯比如說世界衛生組織好了\n\n01:48.905 --> 02:12.882\n我們可以貢獻我們的技術優勢我們已經把小孩麻痺、把那個瘧疾已經老早就根除了但是很多國家還是受害中華民國被打壓的狀況大家都不樂見對不對好那我們就回到大的主題來問以次長的經驗來看美中關係如果是緩和的局勢比較有助於完成我們剛剛次長講希望達成的目標還是對抗的態勢的時候比較容易完成這樣的目標\n\n02:15.530 --> 02:26.225\n我沒有辦法告訴您這個不太確定很難很難這個國際關係變化萬千這很難那他各有看一看中國他是基於什麼條件對這個牽涉到雙邊之間的談判的條件對不對好沒有關係這我們後面來討論\n\n02:30.791 --> 02:51.887\n那今天這個外交部的書面報告有講因為現在我們還是討論美國大選嘛就要慎防美國選情升溫之下兩岸議題操弄變成一個政治攻防的議題喔市長要不要說明一下操弄是什麼意思?怎麼樣的操弄?舉個例子給大家說明一下剛才委員也提到不是您喔你前面的委員提到比如說這個假訊息的假如說比如說是認知作戰的\n\n02:58.191 --> 03:12.420\n比如說他們提供一些誘因的我覺得各方方面面都會有一些被操弄的一些影響在的話這對我們這個並不是一個好的現象\n\n03:13.479 --> 03:40.174\n並不是一個好的現象我所謂操弄您了解我的意思嗎因為你剛剛講的是認知作戰也就是說他們彼此之間會不會用假訊息的方式去竊選那是另外一個層面但是你的報告是寫說兩岸議題被操弄換言之就是兩岸議題也許是民主黨的候選人或共和黨的候選人針對兩岸議題的表態或者是拿來做政治攻防的工具然後對這個對我國的國家利益造成衝擊目前看起來有沒有這樣的狀況有沒有可能發生這樣的事可能事實是有但是我們密切觀察\n\n03:41.667 --> 04:02.303\n你外交部的立場應該不希望發生這樣的事,對不對?當然不希望我們可以看出來,現在這個民主黨執政的民主黨現在的走向看起來是往緩和的方向走,我們剛剛有討論過那他的對手,曾經開啟中美貿易戰的川普你覺得他以目前你們的所知他會希望美中關係是緩和還是對抗?\n\n04:05.885 --> 04:07.105\n目前你掌握的狀況,你們對選舉的研判是怎麼樣的?\n\n04:23.162 --> 04:38.226\n我們從兩個角度來看一個中美對抗第二個是印太戰略的這兩個東西其實是有一點點矛盾的如果說印太戰略要守得好的話那勢必要對中國採取比較嚴格的比較強硬如果說對\n\n04:42.408 --> 04:57.145\n中國比較軟的印太戰略可能就沒有辦法向他推動這麼好因為2017年是川普推動印太戰略對他來講他非常非常重要所以你的評斷川普相對來講可能稍微要往對抗的方向靠攏一點我們不要講說很極端這樣對不對\n\n04:59.227 --> 04:59.247\n韓國瑜\n\n05:23.846 --> 05:24.547\n接下來進行詢答委員是徐曉欣委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.269,"end":17.004,"text":"今天討論的是美選對台灣的影響當然免不了聊聊中美關係 聊聊兩岸關係本期過去是內政委員會的委員我們曾經質詢過陸委會 質詢過海基會當初的主委跟董事長其實我們都討論過美中關係的議題也討論過兩岸的議題"},{"start":19.266,"end":29.036,"text":"那大體上來講他們都認為說這個中美對抗的態勢如果往緩和的方向走的話也有助於降低這個台海的這個衝突風險請問次長同意這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":32.086,"end":54.89,"text":"看他們降低是用什麼樣的一個條件來談的降低有很多的因素那個因素會不會影響台灣的重要性我覺得這要值得觀察目前看起來大的趨勢看起來是有和緩的一些跡象雖然速度好像沒有想像中這麼快那目前為止我們的國家利益有被犧牲掉嗎在目前發生的事情之下"},{"start":55.868,"end":82.839,"text":"目前沒有我們堅持我們堅守的很嚴格我們跟美國的關係也一直維持的相當好跟歐盟的關係也維持的非常好日本韓國都維持的非常好所以按照這樣子的國際趨勢的一個走向目前來講對中華民國來說是不錯的因為大的環境和緩了但相對來講我們國家利益沒有被犧牲是這樣做的嗎是的但是還可以更好還可以更好那你要不要說明一下怎麼樣可以更好"},{"start":84.728,"end":108.705,"text":"當然如果說民主國家能夠大家再來研究這個民主制度所帶來的一些對民生樂利的事情那麼把台灣怎麼樣推到國際組織那麼台灣加入國際組織是對國際組織本身是有幫助的我們並不是為了加入而加入這是一個互相的對不對沒錯比如說世界衛生組織好了"},{"start":108.905,"end":132.882,"text":"我們可以貢獻我們的技術優勢我們已經把小孩麻痺、把那個瘧疾已經老早就根除了但是很多國家還是受害中華民國被打壓的狀況大家都不樂見對不對好那我們就回到大的主題來問以次長的經驗來看美中關係如果是緩和的局勢比較有助於完成我們剛剛次長講希望達成的目標還是對抗的態勢的時候比較容易完成這樣的目標"},{"start":135.53,"end":146.225,"text":"我沒有辦法告訴您這個不太確定很難很難這個國際關係變化萬千這很難那他各有看一看中國他是基於什麼條件對這個牽涉到雙邊之間的談判的條件對不對好沒有關係這我們後面來討論"},{"start":150.791,"end":171.887,"text":"那今天這個外交部的書面報告有講因為現在我們還是討論美國大選嘛就要慎防美國選情升溫之下兩岸議題操弄變成一個政治攻防的議題喔市長要不要說明一下操弄是什麼意思?怎麼樣的操弄?舉個例子給大家說明一下剛才委員也提到不是您喔你前面的委員提到比如說這個假訊息的假如說比如說是認知作戰的"},{"start":178.191,"end":192.42,"text":"比如說他們提供一些誘因的我覺得各方方面面都會有一些被操弄的一些影響在的話這對我們這個並不是一個好的現象"},{"start":193.479,"end":220.174,"text":"並不是一個好的現象我所謂操弄您了解我的意思嗎因為你剛剛講的是認知作戰也就是說他們彼此之間會不會用假訊息的方式去竊選那是另外一個層面但是你的報告是寫說兩岸議題被操弄換言之就是兩岸議題也許是民主黨的候選人或共和黨的候選人針對兩岸議題的表態或者是拿來做政治攻防的工具然後對這個對我國的國家利益造成衝擊目前看起來有沒有這樣的狀況有沒有可能發生這樣的事可能事實是有但是我們密切觀察"},{"start":221.667,"end":242.303,"text":"你外交部的立場應該不希望發生這樣的事,對不對?當然不希望我們可以看出來,現在這個民主黨執政的民主黨現在的走向看起來是往緩和的方向走,我們剛剛有討論過那他的對手,曾經開啟中美貿易戰的川普你覺得他以目前你們的所知他會希望美中關係是緩和還是對抗?"},{"start":245.885,"end":247.105,"text":"目前你掌握的狀況,你們對選舉的研判是怎麼樣的?"},{"start":263.162,"end":278.226,"text":"我們從兩個角度來看一個中美對抗第二個是印太戰略的這兩個東西其實是有一點點矛盾的如果說印太戰略要守得好的話那勢必要對中國採取比較嚴格的比較強硬如果說對"},{"start":282.408,"end":297.145,"text":"中國比較軟的印太戰略可能就沒有辦法向他推動這麼好因為2017年是川普推動印太戰略對他來講他非常非常重要所以你的評斷川普相對來講可能稍微要往對抗的方向靠攏一點我們不要講說很極端這樣對不對"},{"start":299.227,"end":299.247,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":323.846,"end":324.547,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員是徐曉欣委員"}]}}}}